Schenix (NA)
: Mundo and Singed are above Irelia and Camille, it just so happens that those two (Camille and Irelia) are able to carry more directly and feel like they have more impact. This may or may not be true, however Mundo and Singed are rather ridiculous and in the right hands of macro, carry harder right now. Getting stomped by the other two is generally misplaying into them during laning, where you get punished harder. --- Shaco is an irritating champion, not particularly busted past his early ganks considering he needs to actually make plans for what he wants to do from the 5 minute mark in terms of build path, and before every teamfight or push. It's just that his kit is all core power, not one or two abilities, so he can utilize everything for maximum impact in good hands -- and an early game jungle meta favors him when it's out in the river. Udyr can sit in that semi imaginary tier as well: he has heavy punishment, high dueling, innate tankiness, exceptional base stats, and extremely fast clears. If he wants to give up one scuttle to you for clearing your entire topside and a scuttle, he can do so very quickly both in terms of killing them and moving around the camps and map. --- Mid just seems more personal bias. LeBlanc and Yasuo are toxic type champions, but not at all whatever version of S-tier you're toting. ASol is the only real offender of mid right now, exacerbated with the Phase Rush buff. Vladimirs current design with a competent team will almost always be powerful, and just possibly Zed/Talon for being strong enough to crowd out half of the immobile picks -- but that's normal. That's it. --- Support is Morgana when Janna still exists, that's a nice meme. Morgana is just when you don't want Janna, Lulu or Nami, sure. Does that make her broken? Whatever the meta and team composition favors. Not the role or the champions strictly speaking, it's the state of the games influence for them. --- ADC state is just don't pick Lucian or Kalista and you can be useful. Lucian has the highest amount of mains and are still struggling patch after patch, not to mention offer nothing to the team of virtue of the champion other than decent early damage through skill because being outranged by a Maokai W effectively removes your status as an adc if you can't force a snowball. And Kalista being dumpstered as she should be until a rework. Overall, jungle and top are having problems and this influences the meta for the whole game and other lanes, naturally. So your premise I agree with, just not most of your actual post.
: May appear weird. But if a thread like that stay here on board long enough, they will see it. If people keep stating the same opinion (nerf the OverPowered) then they will at least think about doing something.
Yes they will see this. Read this post: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/4fAcHIyE-riot-has-changed-in-a-bad-direction?comment=0006
: Please do tell how everything is wrong here then, I'm sure everyone would love to see what you have to say since you've already wasted time commenting 3+ times. Love your type, the ones that just go around with their "I think you're wrong so THERE! Haha Got em!" Attitude and equally pointless comments.
Look, did you read the OP? 'The Wolf King' is absolutely right, two thirds of the post are insults while the last third is a very weak argument that needs further elaboration. This is not constructive criticism, this is one of these rants that are so typical for the 'Gameplay' boards and have given this place such a bad reputation.
noukinn (NA)
: Know what would be nice? If the next batch of patches were NOTHING but nerfs across the board
What is the point of this thread? What do you think a member of the balance team is going to think after reading this post. Or rather: what do you think any reasonable person is going to think after reading this post? You sound like an unreasonable child throwing a tantrum.
Violett (NA)
: Just give Yasuo the Azir treatment, he doesn't need any buffs
> Yasuo is in the same boat now as what Azir once was NO he is NOT. Azir was 100% P/B, Yasuo is not picked competitively.
Hibeki (NA)
: Yes there is, enforcing a 50% winrate makes people play your game more to reach their goals. Theres no reason for people to get placed many divisions below their actual mmr when ranked first starts either, but like riot says its to 'provide a challenge' and 'lets you feel like you achieved something' My winrate in hots isn't 50%. not even close. it's around 65-70%.
> [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6ekpTAEH,comment-id=00030002000000000001000100000000,timestamp=2018-01-06T20:12:52.473+0000) > > Yes there is, enforcing a 50% winrate makes people play your game more to reach their goals. No, they don't climb with a 50% winrate. The thing that you ignore is the following: Riot gains NOTHING by holding someone in Bronze. If they just let him climb to Silver then he would set himself the goal of reaching Gold, etc. > Theres no reason for people to get placed many divisions below their actual mmr when ranked first starts either, but like riot says its to 'provide a challenge' and 'lets you feel like you achieved something' Do you really not see why it's a good thing that people don't stay in some xxx 5 division forever? > My winrate in hots isn't 50%. not even close. it's around 65-70%. Then the matchmaking system is terrible. The point of a matchmaking system is to match you with people of your level - if you have a 65-70% winrate long time then the matchmaking system fails to do so.
: When you feed every lane in the finals and flash like wild turtle to int... I don't think you deserve MVP. Ruler, Ambition, and CuVee made their opponents look like noobs and so any of those 3 would have been fine.
Please what? I know which game you are referring to but you are simply ignoring the context: Faker HAD to win every other lane and the jungle for his teammates (as has been proven in the final games before the game you are referring to and the other knock-out games). I don't think any player could have performed as well as Faker in his position which means that he deserves MVP.
Hibeki (NA)
: I dont seem to understand, you seem to be against the idea OP is talking about but when you reply to my comments, you are all for it.
Wait.. Were you serious? I thought your post was a parody so I went along with it to show that I understood it. Lmao.
: Blizzard and Console is why. Basically anyone with any system has played overwatch, and only PC gamers have played the other 4 that were the runner ups. Also Blizzard is a huge name, so it easier for them to win things. Hell if you want to see something truely wacky: Faker won best Esports player and he looked like trash at worlds compaired to before. People are dumb lol.
> he looked like trash at worlds compaired to before I mean he did look stronger before but he still performed extremely well, I'd still give him MVP worlds.
Hibeki (NA)
: No but I honestly believe that most of the users would climb to a higher tier. Silver 4 seasons ago is vastly different to silver now.
.. In which case they would still have plenty space to climb higher. There is no need to artificially hold people back.
Hibeki (NA)
: Ok, lets look at QT's account chowdog on op.gg While yes he does a gimmick sometimes, you honestly think possibly the best player on NA....naturally holds a 52% winrate. No if QT had his way and didn't do his gimmicks he could easily hold a 75% winrate. But no, look at his history. 4 wins 4 losses 2 wins 2 losses, its all a pattern which is totally unnatural. QT has proven he is consistent in play to a point where he shouldn't be 'going on tilt'. He already achieved rank 1 challenger earlier last year, so if you honestly think that QT's winrate is naturally 52% then you are just as drunk out of your mind as riot wants you to be.
> While yes he does a gimmick sometimes, you honestly think possibly the best player on NA....naturally holds a 52% winrate. > > No if QT had his way and didn't do his gimmicks he could easily hold a 75% winrate. Are you kidding me? QT is a GOD. He would easily have a 100% winrate if it weren't for him trolling and Riot rigging his games so that his winrate seems natural so that people don't realize that he figured the game out. But of course all that is because he is a literal GOD so it doesn't apply to us commoners.
: They gain the addiction aspect. If you really want to be in gold for example it if you just win 20 games in a row and get into gold, you may stop playing. If you stop playing you generally would spend less money. If you only win 60% of games, it takes longer to do so you "earn them more money". Because your right, they really shouldn't gain anything from it, but it ruins the fun for other people. You honestly can't tell anyone you haven't been in a game where you might be 3/0, you look at the score and the game is 3/15 or something crazy by 12.
Yeah because if Riot wasn't conspiring against the userbase we would all be in challenger and have nothing left to do and would stop playing /s
: > [{quoted}](name=Gregor Gysi,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6ekpTAEH,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-01-06T00:29:21.314+0000) > > Good thing that you haven't improved in three seasons. Except I've only been playing for 2 seasons and interestingly it took you 3 seasons to achieve the rank I acquired in my first season of playing the game.
Yeah, go ahead and try to dodge the point: Since season 6 in which you reached P5 you have not managed to hold a winrate that is above 50%. In fact you had a 46% winrate with your main in S7 and a 44% winrate with your main so far in this pre-season. That means that it is just a fact that you have not improved in a long time. Thus it's absolutely hilarious that you claim that improving is being actively punished.
: A compliment on what Riot really managed to balance
> People wouldn't be so toxic if winning/improving wasn't actively punished. Good thing that you haven't improved in three seasons.
: Please for the love of Talos stop putting new players in Silver
I think at this point in league smurfs have a bigger impact on the elo that new accounts start at than actual newcomers. Hence lowering the starting elo makes absolutely no sense.
Kloqdq (NA)
: > You're showing your insecurities already by posting on accounts that aren't even your mains so your true ranks doesn't show. I think you need to chill the fuck out dude. This is in god damn Memes and Games; learn to take a fucking joke.
This notion is very popular in the Gameplay board and frankly making jokes about the easiest target is just cheap and cowardish. Go ahead and try to make such a joke about Mages or Tanks.
Naymliss (NA)
: "ADCs just right click to deal damage"
It's so amusing to me when people complain about "right-clicking someone to death" when it's probably one of the hardest things to do when it comes to the mechanical aspect. There is no champion that has difficult combos in terms of button smashing and skill shots are not only tremendously overrated but we should also keep in mind that many ADC's do in fact have skillshots.
: E when you reset if you smart enough to use the damage the R which resets his passive which is another ability and his w is very high damage though its heal isnt as high as it used to be.
E deals super little damage, using the R to reset delays his burst so that I wouldn't really call it oneshotting anyways and his W doesn't come close to the damage of isolated Q. His highest damage ability loses 65% - yes that is HUGE for his ability to oneshot.
: "Give up tons of farm and wait for late game" is the most unfun "counterplay" imaginable.
My problem with extreme lane bullies is that while they are not necessarily OP they do kind of remove your agency as you depend on your jungler. Other than that not all of the champions you mentioned are lane bullies..
Enloct (NA)
: One ability gets 65% more damage. It is significant but people way overstate his reliance on isolation. He still 1shots squishies all the time isolation or not.
"one ability" - yeah his E/W/R are known to deal loads of damage.. Kha is very reliant on his isolation and I promise you that Eve will turn out to be decently strong in soloQ very soon once people learned how to play her. Her playstyle is rather unique after all.
wildfox99 (EUW)
: >Please explain why Riot decided that it's okay for Ahri to have a ~53% avg winrate over more than 3 years when they supposedly hate her. she never had more than 52%WR,sometimes almost 53 but this can't be compared with janna who had 55%+WR it's not all about WR,but WR compared with the champion bann rate,pick rate,if those players main her or are new,**and his skill cap** riot literally deleted ahri's skillcap,so she's supposed to have a higher win rate compared for example with yasuo she has never been a pick-or-bann champion,she was a solid pick but she wasn't op (did you ever seen her at lcs?),if she drops below 50% and become useless nobody will die,but who love playing her ofc won't like that btw you should be less offensive,nobody will laugh for this bad sarcasm
> she never had more than 52%WR,sometimes almost 53 but this can't be compared with janna who had 55%+WR I literally linked her WR history in diamond and it simply contradicts you. Could you PLEASE just try to access actual data instead of just making convenient stuff up? https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/de/champions/stats/ahri/diamond > it's not all about WR,but WR compared with the champion bann rate,pick rate,if those players main her or are new,and his skill cap Yes her popularity was high all the time, banrate was low as the was always OP just like Janna and if you would please press the leagueofgraphs link and take a look at her "winrate/ranked games played" stats and compare them to Yasuo you will realize that Ahri beginners are doing better than Yasuo beginners (as you said) but that Ahri mains do better than Yasuo mains aswell (which you implied was not the case). Conclusion: no matter how experienced the Yasuo player, if he had put all that energy into Ahri he would have a better winrate. And that is right now that Ahri is relatively weak, just imagine how that chart looked back when she had her 53% winrate. > she was a solid pick but she wasn't op She was OP in the sense that she consistently overperformed in soloQ. There are OP champions that are not OP in competetive while being way too strong in soloQ. Ahri was one of them. Also, regarding the Ahri entitlement: chiampions below 50% are not useless. Guess what: 50% of the champions have a <50% winrate. > btw you should be less offensive,nobody will laugh for this bad sarcasm Go look up what sarcasm is, I am afraid that you confuse it with a joke. Sarcasm isn't usually meant to make people laugh.
Ahris (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Gregor Gysi,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bo2Oqxfh,comment-id=0000000400000000,timestamp=2017-10-17T13:03:33.046+0000) > > Yeah, [for a patch or so](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/de/champions/stats/ahri/diamond), how terrifying! Next you know it she will have a 49% winrate at some point like any other champion aside from Janna! > > But who are we kidding, she will probably soon be back to 53% because the Fox sells skins very well so there is no need to worry for you :) I doubt. Ahris skin sell and yet Ahri has/had below 50% winrate for like 4 patches. Also Riot hates Ahri a lot. If ahri is loved she would not have gotten 2 reworks that destroyed her kit.
I literally just linked you her winrate history over the last ~4 years. Please explain why Riot decided that it's okay for Ahri to have a ~53% avg winrate over more than 3 years when they supposedly hate her. Most champions (aka all aside from Janna) were MUCH worse over the last 4 years and yet you have the audacity to act like the world is ending when your champion leaves the fucking winrate (and popularity!) heaven and reconnects with the reality that most champions have to face.
Ahris (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Gregor Gysi,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bo2Oqxfh,comment-id=00000004,timestamp=2017-10-17T10:31:49.314+0000) > > Ahri may even drop under 50% for the first time in three and a half years - the horror! She already did drop below 50% a couple a month ago 0.0
> [{quoted}](name=Ahris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bo2Oqxfh,comment-id=000000040000,timestamp=2017-10-17T11:55:06.602+0000) > > She already did drop below 50% a couple a month ago 0.0 Yeah, [for a patch or so](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/de/champions/stats/ahri/diamond), how terrifying! Next you know it she will have a 49% winrate at some point like any other champion aside from Janna! But who are we kidding, she will probably soon be back to 53% because the Fox sells skins very well so there is no need to worry for you :)
Ahris (NA)
: The fact that Mages arent getting any AP, CDR, and magic pen lost, with like barely any decrease in mr for ALL champs. Also the nerf to AP mages through the mastery nerfs. No more double edged sword, no more damage boost that mages used to burst(more conditions for damage) Even Ahri's w r burst with thunderlords now means the nerf waa not even needed in the first place. Riot is a horrible group of people.
> [{quoted}](name=Ahris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bo2Oqxfh,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-10-16T14:25:36.266+0000) > > The fact that Mages arent getting any AP, CDR, and magic pen lost, with like barely any decrease in mr for ALL champs. Also the nerf to AP mages through the mastery nerfs. > > No more double edged sword, no more damage boost that mages used to burst(more conditions for damage) Even Ahri&#x27;s w r burst with thunderlords now means the nerf waa not even needed in the first place. > > Riot is a horrible group of people. Ahri may even drop under 50% for the first time in three and a half years - the horror!
Eeyore (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Delebru,realm=EUW,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=2WxPr0eA,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-10-08T19:51:44.571+0000) > > it was? What did they change it to? https://imgur.com/kyeSFHZ It's basically Expose Weakness now, but likely will have a stronger %.
Oh WHAT THE FUCK. "increased damage from all sources" - well alright, so it's only for ADC's because splitpushers can't use it to it's full potential.
: but its up to them what they decide is "valid" criticism, not you, not the whole community.
Oh, it's up to everyone to decide whether it's valid or not. However, only Riot can decide to listen to the criticism. To stay with my example: It's great if Riot decides that criticism towards them deleting 60 champions is not valid - but in the opinion of the community it will be valid and Riot will feel the consequences.
: so riot no longer owns or is in charge of their own game? its now the people's game? oh gee, i wonder how riot would respond to that...
This is clearly not about the legality of things, yes, Riot could decide to just delete 60 champions if they wanted and we couldn't sue them - however, that doesn't mean that any criticism isn't valid.
: Season 7 & The Balance Team has been a huge fucking disappointment.
Yeah, this Worlds meta is so exciting. Ardent Censer supports are the greatest playmakers ever WHOOO. Cho'Gath vs Maokai is such an overloaded mobility bunch with too many mechanics WHOOO. Even in the jungle we have mostly fighters but even Nidalee builds Ardent Censer.. This Worlds meta is lame and far from LCSBIGPLAYS. It's the toplane tank noodle fight that the boards wished for, thank you very much, I do enjoy the free elo that Maokai gives me atm.
Nebuul (NA)
: I {{item:3035}} don't {{item:3134}} know {{item:3147}} why {{item:3142}} you'd {{item:3814}} feel {{item:3036}} that {{item:3033}} way {{item:3071}}
{{item:3814}} - meme item, it's trash {{item:3147}} {{item:3142}} - only effective against squieshies: 1 point of arpen = 1 point of armor, it's just like quadruple the price {{item:3035}} {{item:3035}} - only good on ADC's which is why a full AD comp makes no sense. ADC's are extremely strong so all you need is people who protect and peel for them, assassins/skirmishers are not needed {{item:3071}} - has gotten nerfed so often that it's mostly a Juggernaut item at this point. Great.
: full ad team comps don't get punished enough...
Oh God, I swear these boards trigger me so much. Right now the team with the most tanks wins basically by default unless the other team is way more skilled. Sure, you might say: "ahh this guy mains Riven and is just talking out of his ass" - well then, take a look at my op.gg: http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=gregorgysi I am a Riven main but seeing how my team always picks squieshy champions I am forced to pick Maokai and guess what: EZ elo. Maokai = free elo. Shen = free elo. Riven = way too much effort for 0 reward.
GripaAviara (EUNE)
: An idea on how to solve this cycle of annoying metas (assasin, adc, etc)
If everyone had all powerspikes at the same time it would be impossible to make comebacks. Generally those who are behind are much weaker than their opponents - but when they just got a powerspike they may be equally strong at exactly that point as their opponent does not have a powerspike which gives them the opportunity to outplay their opponent and come back.
: The fact that you are automatically given an immense disadvantage if you are doing well consistently. You shouldn't go up against Plats and be matched up with Bronzes in your Silver 3 promos. It's just not right.
That is not the case. If you are doing well then you will probably play with and against G5 players.
: Having a good mindset is crucial, but if there is an inherent flaw in the system we can't just ignore that.
: Who Else Is Not Excited For Next Patch?
DD is the only good thing. Everything else is pure BS, especially the BC changes.
: I never seen Riven build armor pen though except for black cleaver.
It's core against tanks. Just look at champion.gg, it's standard. Also: That doesn't adress any of the other points I made. The only thing Riven mains have going for themselves rn is that [this item](https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leafyishere/images/e/ea/Bleach.png/revision/latest?cb=20160713145454) is pretty cheap.
: If tanks loosing overall 300-500 HP the 10 % less armor pen on last whisper means nothing.
.. In addition to 5% less arpen on BC and items being compensated with armor (which is even more effective due to arpen nerfs) and cost reduction. Considering the HUGE damage nerfs in the mastery tree recently combined with the BC change to give even less AD you will basically roll over Riven's with any tank. Not to mention those new items that essentially disable damage for 4 seconds - I wouldn't be worried if I was you.
Rewt (NA)
: Support is definately not the easiest. Id say in many cases Jungle is the easiest (Coming from a Jungle Main), Lets be Honest here. Jungle requires about 0 mechanical skill. its all about your game knowledge. To play jungle you just need to be map aware and be able to hit a skill shot or 2. In support you need to know about lane presence, how to pressure while being safe. Good positioning. Using 3 + active items (As a jungler I usually end up with like..... 1 or 2) And if you are something like Leona you are responsible for like 3/4 of your teams hard engage. Support is actually a pretty tough role to fully understand. Now are there easy supports? yes. Janna. Literally the most brain dead support in the game. But the same can be said for Jungle. Olaf. I throw axes................ thats it. I press R so i can throw axes more consistently.
Tbh jungle requires mechanical skill - atleast when you play a carry jungler, tank junglers require less skill (similiar to tank tops/supports). From a mechanical standpoint it's probably support that is the easiest as maximising your damage with AAs is generally less important and they don't have to lasthit and trade. There is a reason why we see so many pro's who are important for shotcalling transition to support - you don't need to learn that much muscle memory.
: Honestly, Darius is the perfect example what a Juggernaut should be like.
Yep. He get's countered by Riven and is popular - it doesn't get any better than that.
Rengooo (OCE)
: You are really quire persistent aren't you? Is it the whole reason you come on these boards? To pick fights about other peoples champs they feel strongly about? Looking at your other posts it seems to be your usual M.O. I'm not changing my standing.. Rengar IS useless, he is useless outside of pro play / organized play because the rework has developed him into a utility based bruiser that is powerful when co-ordinated with your team. The link you provided only backs this up. The basis of my statement is that Rengar is useless at what he is suppose to do. He is suppose to be an assassin / hunter that fights for selfish reasons, this was even stated by RiotRepertoir in his Assassin Roster Update post.. I don't know how you could argue with this.. If we wanted some vision control bruiser with aoe damage and bruiser based abilities then that should have come from a new champ. Not a completely altered iteration of Rengar. Therefore, because those goals have not been accomplished, myself and you will find most other old Rengar mains would agree, his rework failed. If you still don't believe me and are in a blind rage because I called you a troll, go onto pages like Rengar mains, and even right here on the boards for proof of the above, very few previous Rengar mains like him or play him anymore for the reasons I mentioned above. If the opinions of players that actually play and played the champ can't persuade you then you are defending the rework because you simply didn't like the old Rengar. I don't blame you for not liking the old Rengar, he was obnoxious to play against, but it is not a basis to argue his current state is healthy. --- Please don't say I'm ignoring facts because you have presented none, you have only given me your opinion as I have given you mine.. A link to champ stats really doesn't prove anything beyond how many people play him and how successful he is in various divisions, which by the way, as an average he is one of the lowest win rate junglers at the moment. The % you are referring to in pro play is not representative of 95% of League play. Like I mentioned, the only fact here is that in general Rengar mains (many no longer Rengar mains) believe as I do, in that he is weak for his intended fantasy and assassin/hunter playstyle primarily due his abusability as vision control bruiser, I'm not going to go around getting every link and source to back this statement because quite frankly you aren't worth the time and effort, you should do this yourself as I have in the past months since his rework, at least you should if you intend to stand behind you statement of "Rengar is in a great place now".... As a test, go and sign up to Rengar mains and post exactly that, give them your run down of why you think he is balanced and why you think the rework was a success. I think we already know how that would turn out for you. Now I'm done, if you still disagree you are welcome to, but I have presented exactly why I think the way I do regarding Rengar and your win rate references are not enough of an argument to prove other wise. There is no point in this conversation going on because clearly you don't respect me, and I don't respect you. Don't ask why I just wrote all that, I'm still not 100% sure why I bothered, but you have really managed to get under my skin, congratulations. Good day.
> Rengar IS useless, he is useless outside of pro play / organized play because the rework has developed him into a utility based bruiser that is powerful when co-ordinated with your team. > The link you provided only backs this up. The link that I provided shows the winrate of Rengar players in soloQ - which is not organized play. The **fact** that experienced Rengar players have such a high winrate proves that he is most definetely useful in not organized play - assuming that he is played right. **Please explain why experienced Rengar players are so successfull in soloQ and how that is compatible with your claim that Rengar is supposedly useless in organized play. ** ^is my main point, so do not ignore that. Furthermore, utility based champions do not typically snowball - yet Rengar [uses FB more efficient](http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/page/first-blood-stats-behind-slaughter) than every other champion, which is a typical trait for high damage champions. > The basis of my statement is that Rengar is useless at what he is suppose to do. > He is suppose to be an assassin / hunter that fights for selfish reasons, this was even stated by RiotRepertoir in his Assassin Roster Update post.. I don&#x27;t know how you could argue with this.. > If we wanted some vision control bruiser with aoe damage and bruiser based abilities then that should have come from a new champ. Not a completely altered iteration of Rengar. His play pattern is still very much that of an assassin despite him being bruiser-esque in build. He excels at killing isolated targets, although they do not die immediately which means that "isolated" doesn't mean "not within exhaust range of the support" but rather actually isolated from the team. Also, what bruiser based abilities are you talking about - it's only the passive that allows him to build bruiser. It's actually very atypical for an assassin to not have a "get-out" mechanic, so in that regard his new W is much more an assassin skill. > If you still don&#x27;t believe me and are in a blind rage because I called you a troll, go onto pages like Rengar mains, and even right here on the boards for proof of the above, very few previous Rengar mains like him or play him anymore for the reasons I mentioned above. > If the opinions of players that actually play and played the champ can&#x27;t persuade you then you are defending the rework because you simply didn&#x27;t like the old Rengar. I don&#x27;t blame you for not liking the old Rengar, he was obnoxious to play against, but it is not a basis to argue his current state is healthy. You can't speak for all Rengar mains. Quite a few people on r/rengarmains think that he is in a pretty good spot. > Please don&#x27;t say I&#x27;m ignoring facts because you have presented none, you have only given me your opinion as I have given you mine.. A link to champ stats really doesn&#x27;t prove anything beyond how many people play him and how successful he is in various divisions, which by the way, as an average he is one of the lowest win rate junglers at the moment. The % you are referring to in pro play is not representative of 95% of League play. Wait, that's not true: http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/de/champions/stats/rengar Winrate for Rengar players with xx played games: 0: 43% 10: 52% 20: 55% 70: 58% ^this is for soloQ and gold+ If you look at platin/dia his winrates are even higher up to 60%+ for the experienced players. > Like I mentioned, the only fact here is that in general Rengar mains (many no longer Rengar mains) believe as I do, in that he is weak for his intended fantasy and assassin/hunter playstyle primarily due his abusability as vision control bruiser, I&#x27;m not going to go around getting every link and source to back this statement because quite frankly you aren&#x27;t worth the time and effort, you should do this yourself as I have in the past months since his rework, at least you should if you intend to stand behind you statement of &quot;Rengar is in a great place now&quot;.... Yes, most people on r/rengarmains want old oneshot Rengar back. But that doesn't make him more healthy. Rengar HAD to have less burst damage and well, he needs to be compensated for that. So it makes sense that he gets to be more tanky. > As a test, go and sign up to Rengar mains and post exactly that, give them your run down of why you think he is balanced and why you think the rework was a success. > > I think we already know how that would turn out for you. Sure. And you go to dekar's stream and tell him that Rengar is useless in soloQ and ask what you should do. > Now I&#x27;m done, if you still disagree you are welcome to, but I have presented exactly why I think the way I do regarding Rengar and your win rate references are not enough of an argument to prove other wise. Again, explain why his soloQ winrates for more than 10 games played are so high if he is that useless. > There is no point in this conversation going on because clearly you don't respect me, and I don't respect you. >Don't ask why I just wrote all that, I'm still not 100% sure why I bothered, but you have really managed to get under my skin, congratulations. > Good day. Cheers.
Rengooo (OCE)
: Lol, you have literally answered nothing, and based on your responses you obviously understood nothing I just said. Not gona waste my time with you, do you self a favor and educate your self before coming on here and trolling.
Your base premise is that Rengar is super weak right now to the point of being "useless". I attacked said premise and provided proof for my argument (winrate for higher avg. games played). You ignore me disagreeing with your base premise - which is by definition essential for your whole argument - while also insulting me. Ignoring facts is an ignorant thing to do so if you want to defend your point in a not ridiculous way then you better start adressing the facts and interpreting them differently so that they support or atleast not contradict your position. Or you could of course scream "TROLL", that works too.
Rengooo (OCE)
: Don't usually abuse people on the boards, but you sir have no idea what you are talking about. "The fact that he isn't overbearing shows how much of a success the rework was", what kind of messed up logic is this?? Using that logic, all champs should be reworked to be useless, because then nobody would be overbearing. I can understand why people who don't play Rengar like the rework. It's because it sucks, he is a bruiser who can't assassinate and is super easy to predict, thanks to how much information and time his new ult gives you. "If you have trouble playing him watch Dekar", firstly the guy is a stuck up arrogant prick with a child molesters hair cut, I refuse to watch his vids. He is also one of the very few players who likes the rework, and I don't find him hard to play as you word it, I find him boring, weak and nothing like what Rengar should be. Also, Im not arguing he didn't need the rework, he was unhealthy before, and he is unhealthy now, both for different reasons. That is why the rework has failed. Mark my words if he doesn't get reverted he will get another rework in the future. Apologies for the abusive rant, but your misinformed comment has tilted me.
> &quot;The fact that he isn&#x27;t overbearing shows how much of a success the rework was&quot;, what kind of messed up logic is this?? Using that logic, all champs should be reworked to be useless, because then nobody would be overbearing. Did you.. Did you just completely ignore how I said that experienced Rengar players perform extremely well (better than experienced players of most other champions actually) and actually backed it up by linking a source? Because that would mean that he is in fact not super underpowered. > I can understand why people who don&#x27;t play Rengar like the rework. It&#x27;s because it sucks, he is a bruiser who can&#x27;t assassinate and is super easy to predict, thanks to how much information and time his new ult gives you. Well look at this. I say he doesn't suck when played at a certain level and provide proof, you make a claim with 0 backup but I am the stupid one. Gotta love the boards sometimes. > &quot;If you have trouble playing him watch Dekar&quot;, firstly the guy is a stuck up arrogant prick with a child molesters hair cut, I refuse to watch his vids. > He is also one of the very few players who likes the rework, and I don&#x27;t find him hard to play as you word it, I find him boring, weak and nothing like what Rengar should be. Then stay bad, as a matter of **fact **most experienced Rengar players are successfull. You, however, are not. It's not my responsibility to educate shitty players. > Also, Im not arguing he didn&#x27;t need the rework, he was unhealthy before, and he is unhealthy now, both for different reasons. > That is why the rework has failed. > > Mark my words if he doesn&#x27;t get reverted he will get another rework in the future. Why would I care for the words of someone who refuses reason? > Apologies for the abusive rant, but your misinformed comment has tilted me. You were triggered by me using facts and citing sources so you had to resort to insulting me. No worries, I forgive you for your ignorance.
Rengooo (OCE)
: I haven't properly played him since the rework. He's in the dumpster because the rework failed miserably, the fact that he is nerfed into the dumpster is evidence of that. I don't play him because he doesn't feel like Rengar any more, like the post states... there are lots of Reworks that have actually changed the champs significantly, Rengar's is no exception. He is now a tanky bruiser that feels nothing like the previous. Have I made my point?
Absolutely wrong. Rengar is actually in a great place right now and the fact that he isn't overbearing shows how much of an success the rework was. Take a look at [this](http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/de/champions/stats/rengar). Experienced players have nearly a 60% winrate which is actually huge. If you have trouble playing him watch [dekar's ](https://www.twitch.tv/dekar173)stream. But yes, he is a bruiser and he actually has to be. If Riot (or anyone, really) thought that 100-0ing people from steal within 0.00 seconds (yep, that was possible) was healthy then he wouldn't have gotten the rework in the first place.
Rengooo (OCE)
: "The Worst" is bold.... But quite possibly true.
Really? I kinda like it, his new Q is pretty cool - purely mechanic wise. With that being said, they might need to work on the numbers (iirc Rengar is the champion that uses FB the most efficient so he is very reliable on snowballing) so that he becomes healthier. But current Rengar can actually be tuned to become viable without relying on instant deletion like old Rengar - and I would consider that to be a great thing. The worst rework probably goes to Fizz/Kog'Maw/Garen. Some may say Morde, but that one was actually interesting and taught a lot about how meta works so it wasn't useless.
LankPants (OCE)
: Her kit's a lot like Ashe's, it's simple and that's what makes it excellent. It's a high risk kit, it has a single goal sure, but it's not like it's Veigar levels of "Nuke or be useless". You really want to get an engage in as Leona, but you can also function as a peeling tank.
I disagree - Ashe provides decent range and waveclear so that she can't be bullied. Leona, however, has no come back mechanism at all, going in is all she does. I think her passive needs some work..
LankPants (OCE)
: How did Talon's rework redefine his playstyle? Before he was a super bursty mobile assassin who typically controlled the game with his early dominance via roams, now he's a super bursty mobile assassin who typically controls the game with his early dominance via roams. Talon is still basically the same as he was in terms of playstyle. Rengar's also destined to be a toxic lump of trash until Riot removes his instakill. He's a champ who's very in need of a large scale rework eventually.
Oh please, his E changes EVERYTHING. He now has an escape, is much less binary and while he did roam before, now he actually has the mobility to do it properly. His playstyle changed from just vomiting all over the keyboard to actually thinking about escape paths/baits/in-out gameplay. The Talon GU was much more impactful than the LB one considering how old LB changed between QR, WR and ER playstyle depending on the patch.
: There's a difference between being viable and being fun or optimal. Skarner isn't weak as he is now but in terms of damage you could pick Hecarim and get better results with a kit that's pretty similar to his and in terms of CC there are far more reliable choices. The only reason to pick Skarner is the same reason that has been his one crutch for his entire existence which is his ult. The spire passive is a gimmick that does nothing to make him worth picking over any other champion since they just give him steroids.
Tbf though, that was the story of old Skarner aswell. I think he is pretty much the same old Skarner was - underplayed but decently strong. But now also with some lame minigame which isn't too annoying at best.
Ralanr (NA)
: If it's a good Riven, Sion won't be able to do much. Two other hard counters are Darius (because he fucks every melee champion in top) and Kled (Kled is perhaps his hardest counter).
Yeah, I am kinda surprised that you don't consider Riven Sions hardest counter because she kind of shits on all of his abilities with her kit..
: Tell everyone how to beat your main.
{{champion:92}} Be comfortable with your champion. Most Riven players are very experienced and thus comfortable mechanically and matchup-wise. So don't first-time Poppy just because someone told you to play her. Just pick your main unless it's Sion and outplay her by knowing the respective powerspikes. Other than that: - watch out for her lvl 3 - pay attention to her keystone (FoB = will destroy in extended fights, TLD = burst/trading, SS = changes her trade pattern so she will probably E into you rather often) - watch out for her lvl 6 - many champions can interrupt her 3rd Q because it's so slow
Ralanr (NA)
: Sion: mobility and hard CC means he'll barely do anything in lane. Watch where you stand with your minions and don't stand near the edge of his hitboxes.
Sanngriðr (EUNE)
: negative winrate d5's talking shit then at the end of the season beg us to boost em so they dont get called out with the d5 border by high tier players. shame but its k i've been there in the past aswell.
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Gregor Gysi

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