: No, Kai'sa doesn't kill a Cho'Gath in 0.6 second
> [{quoted}](name=TrikzterzArma,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wP57jz79,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-07-20T16:15:25.562+0000) > > No, Kai'sa doesn't kill a Cho'Gath in 0.6 second Holy shit i wanted to comment this and im honestly amazed you're not downvoted to hell for saying that kai sa doesn't kill a full tank cho in 0.6 sec with just her Q. Just wait till the board crazies find this comment and start arguing with you how she crits for 900 per auto
: So....Not gonna list a single statistic of hers? Fine. She's weak as hell because she can't reliably build {{item:3056}} and win. Why is this important? Because reasons. See how literally impossible it is to prove a champion's OP without listing a statistic? I could claim that buying Rageblade on her is trolling and you couldn't prove me wrong, because you're refusing to cite a single statistic.
> [{quoted}](name=DuskDaUmbreon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wP57jz79,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-20T15:50:10.672+0000) > > So....Not gonna list a single statistic of hers? > > Fine. She's weak as hell because she can't reliably build {{item:3056}} and win. Why is this important? Because reasons. > > See how literally impossible it is to prove a champion's OP without listing a statistic? I could claim that buying Rageblade on her is trolling and you couldn't prove me wrong, because you're refusing to cite a single statistic. What statistics? Im honestly just curious, can you list relevant statistics that you think prove/disprove anything? (also statistics aren't really objective proof of anything since there's so much factors that can be misused or misinterpreted)
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=HàrrowR,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZBbOEiYZ,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2019-07-19T13:14:48.961+0000) > > Honestly i don't feel like mages bot are as punishing as they once were, it might be just my personal opinion though but there's a lot of stuff you can do to minimize the effectiveness of the poke. > > 2) Choose the right runes, i think 90% of the players completely gloss over the runes, they see a recommended build and just stick to it mindlessly forever, if you're up against a brand bot lane then taking some defensive runes will mean a lot, legend bloodline, fleet footwork, magical potion delivery, even going for the resolve tree and getting second wind and boneplating will keep you alive much longer and you can actually start with +12 MR Bloodline takes 20+ mins to be useful. Fleet has been nothing but nerfed into the ground.
> [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZBbOEiYZ,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2019-07-19T13:45:15.879+0000) > > Bloodline takes 20+ mins to be useful. > > Fleet has been nothing but nerfed into the ground. I agree fleet is not as useful and i personally never take it, but it does help out a bit, still magical biscuit delivery will do a ton to help out and legend bloodline doesnt take 20 mins to be usefull, you can get 3-4% lifesteal really early + 3% from dorans blade and thats 7% which will heal you for something at least. It's a lot more usefull than having nothing at all, don't know why you'd downvote though, kinda sad
coreym11 (NA)
: Bot lane has turned so stressful and so cheese to play, doesn't even feel competitive
Honestly i don't feel like mages bot are as punishing as they once were, it might be just my personal opinion though but there's a lot of stuff you can do to minimize the effectiveness of the poke. 1) Choose the right champion {{champion:81}} {{champion:51}} {{champion:202}} {{champion:222}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:15}} {{champion:67}} like most of these champions have either long range and are pretty safe or have a lot of mobility to quickly avoid incoming damage, i know it's funny that i've put Vayne there and it's maybe just because she's been one of my mains for the last 8 seasons but even with her i don't usually feel too threatened by poke since she can reposition quickly 2) Choose the right runes, i think 90% of the players completely gloss over the runes, they see a recommended build and just stick to it mindlessly forever, if you're up against a brand bot lane then taking some defensive runes will mean a lot, legend bloodline, fleet footwork, magical potion delivery, even going for the resolve tree and getting second wind and boneplating will keep you alive much longer and you can actually start with +12 MR 3) Items- Again 90% of the players never experiment with any of the different builds, don't be afraid to build {{item:3111}} or {{item:3047}} it's not a huge loss of dps especially if you're not playing a very AA reliant champ like Lucian or MF for example but it can help you stay safer,farm more,participate in more fights and get more kills just by virtue of staying alive to do it. And for later game you don't need to go {{item:3006}} {{item:3087}} {{item:3094}} {{item:3031}} {{item:3508}} to deal damage especially if you're not coupled with an enchanter support like lulu or a healbot soraka. {{item:3006}} {{item:3046}} {{item:3031}} {{item:3139}} {{item:3036}} {{item:3026}} When you factor in the increased survive time you'll end up doing the same or even more damage in total but won't be frustrated as much of getting clipped by Lux Q and instantly deleted. Like i said you have to adapt to every game, if you're going bot with Soraka and have an Ivern jungle you can go all out full damage and rely on them to save you, if your support is pyke that can't heal or shield you you'll have to rely on yourself. {{item:3026}} {{item:3139}} {{item:3046}} just these three items completely change the feel of the role try it out and see for yourself, you don't have to be a super squishy hiding cowering in fear https://gyazo.com/20bca0907d8b3266a7d5f9b221450675 https://gyazo.com/937630eb3a37d8eba681d4925fb0ac9a
Rioter Comments
LongStar (NA)
: ADC & Support - Hate Laning With
{{champion:432}} I can't stand this support, if i see him supporting me i get tilted right away. Skillshot stun, skillshot heal, skillshot R that is used more often for trolling or helping the enemy team than me and a situational escape that rarely saved my life. And the most annoying thing of them all, his passive and him leaving me alone in lane to lose cs or risk dying. I just hate those games where the enemy team has lulu or something like that with all of the point and click shields, cc and steroids meanwhile my bard stuns minions, puts a heal somewhere behind me and misses R.
: > [{quoted}](name=HàrrowR,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=muNbBTEV,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-15T17:04:08.685+0000) > > Except its only 20% as effective on ranged champs when procing it off minions, it might be that it's just better suited for melees Ranged champions can also proc it on enemy champions more easily.
> [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=muNbBTEV,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-15T17:10:04.140+0000) > > Ranged champions can also proc it on enemy champions more easily. Well not as easy as proccing it off minions obviously
: > [{quoted}](name=HàrrowR,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=muNbBTEV,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-07-14T22:04:50.477+0000)> Well it doesn't heal for more than i think since i can see the numbers Then I'm unsure why you'd say this: > literally less healing than any of the secondary healing runes, even Taste of Blood Because Taste of Blood is 18-35 + 20% bonus AD once every 20 seconds on champion hit only, and Fleet Footwork is 3-60 + 30% bonus AD every time you charge it, which takes much less than 20 seconds. > The rune is technically functional but just not really interesting, fun or strong I'll grant you it's not especially interesting or fun, but I think it's stronger than you're giving it credit for.
> [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=muNbBTEV,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-14T22:25:55.723+0000) > > Then I'm unsure why you'd say this: > > Because Taste of Blood is 18-35 + 20% bonus AD once every 20 seconds on champion hit only, and Fleet Footwork is 3-60 + 30% bonus AD every time you charge it, which takes much less than 20 seconds. > > I'll grant you it's not especially interesting or fun, but I think it's stronger than you're giving it credit for. Except its only 20% as effective on ranged champs when procing it off minions, it might be that it's just better suited for melees
: It actually heals for more than you think -- the cooldown is shorter, the value scales heavily on AD, and a burst of movement speed is not to be ignored.
> [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=muNbBTEV,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-14T21:56:59.526+0000) > > It actually heals for more than you think -- the cooldown is shorter, the value scales heavily on AD, and a burst of movement speed is not to be ignored. Well it doesn't heal for more than i think since i can see the numbers, i know how the rune works and it's best suited for Jhin but i'd still take Dark Harvest, Arcane Comet or even Summon Aery on him any day for better burst/poke. The rune is technically functional but just not really interesting, fun or strong
Rioter Comments
: Problem is riot keeps making the role too brainess/easy/overpowered. And yet EVERY season ADCs cry even though their role is broken
> [{quoted}](name=The Chillin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nyGTalPh,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2019-07-09T08:09:41.926+0000) > > Problem is riot keeps making the role too brainess/easy/overpowered. And yet EVERY season ADCs cry even though their role is broken If you think being the squishiest person on the team with a class dedicated to taking you out and a target on your back is the easiest role, what in your opinion is the hardest? Please elaborate on what you consider hard and how would you rank classes by "difficulty"
: im to lazy to address anything but i have to say something about this > [{quoted}](name=HàrrowR,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nyGTalPh,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-07-06T04:10:34.548+0000) > 3) Most supports aren't really supports anymore- yes this goes back to point 1 {{champion:99}} she plays like a support, she build like a support so why she is not a support? [unless you talk about full ap which is like an full ap morg/sona just a meme to have fun with]
> [{quoted}](name=hrooza dota ,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nyGTalPh,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-07-07T15:06:33.466+0000) > > im to lazy to address anything but i have to say something about this > > she plays like a support, she build like a support so why she is not a support? [unless you talk about full ap which is like an full ap morg/sona just a meme to have fun with] Nah, i'm just talking about how she has limited options of protecting you, if youre getting dived and she misses her Q you're toast, her shield is nice but usually not enough and can be missed as well, now compare this to Lulu for example, point and click shield, point and click r that knock people up, point and click poly on the enemy trying to kill you, i mean you're wrapped in a safe blanket playing with a good lulu supp, that's what i meant
: Hashinshin says a lot of dumb shit, but he got ADCs players right. Their superpower being super fucking bitching about how they're weak when they're strongest role in the game since time immemorial. ADCs have monopoly over botlane, where not a single other class of champions breaks 1% playrate, and you think the role is weak when all you have to do is hover M2 on someone to do 1000 dps from range.
> [{quoted}](name=Jinzo Torrance,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nyGTalPh,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-07-07T09:25:23.460+0000) > > Hashinshin says a lot of dumb shit, but he got ADCs players right. > Their superpower being super fucking bitching about how they're weak when they're strongest role in the game since time immemorial. > > ADCs have monopoly over botlane, where not a single other class of champions breaks 1% playrate, and you think the role is weak when all you have to do is hover M2 on someone to do 1000 dps from range. Mages are viable bot, you can play them if you want, the thing is no one wants to fucking play mages bot, people want to play the class that they like, why is this so hard to understand?
Xavanic (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=HàrrowR,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nyGTalPh,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-07T01:21:00.140+0000) > > Lucian is a born dueler, he doesn't kill you because he's critting for 800 per shot, he's critting cause he's applying double botrk procs and bc stacks every auto, Lucian is one of my most played champs, i even go tankier than most with him with runes and items and he can duel just about anyone, the trade off is that he doesn't have as much dps or range as conventional marksmen, now he makes it up for with sheer tankiness and mobility which keeps him alive during a fight but he'll never outdamage Jinx,Kog,Vayne,Tristana, Kaisa etc. in a straight up team fight. > > And this is my point exactly, people think that marksmen should do x or not do y, if you're losing a duel to lucian every time then maybe its time to stop dueling him and wait for a team mate or a team fight, i don't duel zed or le blanc when playing Jinx, i don't duel anyone when playing jinx otherwise i'd complain all the time how its unfair that im losing every duel when the champ is clearly not meant for dueling I cant stop though, he's forcing the duels and chasing me down with his insanely overloaded mobility, like, i cant not duel him becvause he is 10x faster then me with his 2 second CD E, if he made up for it by not having an overloaded passive i could overlook this, but i cant, he has an extremely powerful ult, extremely powerful E, extremely powerful passive, and his Q/W allow him to proc his extremely powerful passive, and whenever lucian is in a game, any crit focused adc is irrelevant anyways since they are 3000+ gold behind lucian, so if they even dare try to participate he will just kill them, it's as if riot doesn't factor in the fact that X champ is ranged and their power budget should reflect that, this is my problem with marksman, their balanced the same as melee carries, which in turn just fucks up balance...since they shouldn't be, as melee carries still need to build a defensive item or 2 to stay alive, while marksman will just typically use their range to stay alive, meaning they can get away with full dmg builds In fact, the balance for marksman is so fucked up rn, the only lane high elo players care about is bot...since bot decides the game right now
> [{quoted}](name=Xavanic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nyGTalPh,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-07T01:40:27.192+0000) > > I cant stop though, he's forcing the duels and chasing me down with his insanely overloaded mobility, like, i cant not duel him becvause he is 10x faster then me And now you know how every ADC feels like when playing against assassins/divers/bruisers > this is my problem with marksman, their balanced the same as melee carries, which in turn just fucks up balance They are not balanced as melee carries, i don't even want to go into that, its pretty fucking obvious that melee carries have much more in-built defenses and damage as well as higher base stats, Yasuo is a perfect example of that, Windwall, shield, dashes and double crit % {{champion:23}} is also a good example of melee carries not being even close to being balanced the same way, he not only has bonus damage and crit chance but a 7 second ult that makes him unkillable, {{champion:5}} -has his ult, a knockup, in-built healing etc. {{champion:39}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:24}} like there really is no need to explain how melee champs make up for their lack of range. > while marksman will just typically use their range to stay alive, meaning they can get away with full dmg builds Yeah, they can get away with it but pay for it dearly whenever someone lands a single ability or simply flashes on top of them, just look at the most popular carries {{champion:81}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:67}} {{champion:145}} they all have some form of defense whether it's built in their kit or in their build path like lucian going bc or ezreal going iceborn gauntlet, believe it or not this lowers their damage while making them harder to kill, meaning its not a good idea to dive or duel them since they have more wiggle room. I mean looking at your match history some of the worst games you had were playing marksmen, meanwhile with sylas you have at least 2-3 games where you dealt more damage than your carry while having insane utility with your ult, insane healing, mobility and even cc, from my point of view a lot of new melees are so overloaded that there's no other option than playing the strongest carries to even play the game. I was frustrated with bruisers before i started playing them and realized that they have a lot of problems of their own, and the fact that you can kill a fed adc even when behind really didn't seem like a big deal when i know that i can't farm my lane cause the enemy darius is a kill or two ahead. You should try playing adcs more, especially the glass canon type you're talking about and see how frustrating it can get when a 1/5 Zed deletes you out of existence just as fast as if he was fed, you'll quickly realize how frustrating it can get and how those duels that you kept losing were all a landed cc away from sure death
: I mean, you named what makes people HATE ADC's so much. Unavoidable Burst Per Second. Not to mention the entire role from it's name to it's playerbase are extraordinarily entitled. There is a reason Tyler 1 mains Draven after all. ADC's as a whole are an terribly designed class of champions. They either do not kill you, and they die horribly in one touch, or they 1 shot you from 1100 range with no counter play. Part of the problem is that damage in the game is so absurdly high, that ADC's HAVE to insta kill you, otherwise they are completely worthless and mages are better in every way. There isn't a need for sustain damage, because nobody lasts long enough to require sustaining down. Maybe if crit is just straight removed, and damage across the board for every class is massively reduced, people will not hate ADC's anymore. They had a pretty clear role a few seasons ago, DPS objectives, help take towers, deal with tanks. Now it just boils down to who gets 1 shot first. It doesn't help when AD carries were not the only class that could play bot lane they bitched and moaned so loudly daddy Rito personally buffed and changed every single one like babies. It's shit like that that hurts how the community sees ADC players. That and the fact that right now ADC's are just behind mages in the "Best for every single lane" role. Seriously, Vayne top, Lucian and Ezreal mid, Kaisa jungle Jinx Janna or Lulu bot lane is actually a really good teamcomp. Try it if you don't believe me. The only reason ADC aren't the best in every role is because mages do everything better while being safer right now.
> [{quoted}](name=Ionshatter,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nyGTalPh,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-07-06T20:02:15.265+0000) > > I mean, you named what makes people HATE ADC's so much. > > Unavoidable > Burst > Per > Second. > > . The only reason ADC aren't the best in every role is because mages do everything better while being safer right now. So why are you out here complaining about ADCs and not mages? No adcs don't have 1100 range, no ADCs don't need to instakill you or die horribly, no adcs are not entitled crybabies cause the only lane that they can go to was invaded by other classes that already had lanes, i play almost exclusively adc with a bit of top, when i log into the game i want to play Lucian,Vayne,Jinx,Sivir etc. if i can't do that i will not log in to the game, many ADC players feel the same, its a popular role to play, why would Riot alienate tens of thousands of players just so Darius can go both bot and top ? People stopped playing during that time period, i did too for a couple of months, less players = less money, it's not really a hard concept to understand. And like i said, its not unavoidable damage, you need to be in range to do it and most carries have a decent amount of skillshots {{champion:81}} {{champion:498}} {{champion:110}} {{champion:202}} {{champion:51}} or need to time their steroids right which you can abuse like {{champion:18}} {{champion:22}} {{champion:96}} while others like {{champion:119}} have very clear mechanics that you can also play around to reduce their damage output. Like i said, most mages need to land one cc to make the rest of their kit "unavoidable damage" , most melees are just as auto dependent except they have mechanics to make up for their lack of range {{champion:23}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:5}} {{champion:2}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:102}} {{champion:240}} {{champion:77}} {{champion:62}} {{champion:254}} etc. ADCs don't build full glass canon anymore and neither should other classes, going into a few defensive items that every class has as well as defensive runes will drastically reduce the damage output of an adc, if you're a lee sin jungler and go full lethality don't expect to live for long when you start taking damage Its funny that you, a Jax player is complaining about adcs when you can literally dodge their autos and instakill them, most of your games you have over 3.0 kda while the enemy adc has negative kda which paints a pretty clear picture, what are you complaining about again? So much for "unavoidable damage" it's just so funny coming from a guy maining a champ that can literally avoid it
Andevar (NA)
: Because it’s the job of an assassin to do high damage in short period of time to a single target. But right now, ADC’s can do the same.
> [{quoted}](name=Andevar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wJ0ZEAQW,comment-id=000e0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-06T20:12:54.655+0000) > > Because it’s the job of an assassin to do high damage in short period of time to a single target. But right now, ADC’s can do the same. it's the job of the adc to do high damage to a single target as well, the difference is zed can do it in one second and an ADC might need 3, so if you're permastunned by tresh while jinx has a revved up mini-gun i don't see any possible outcome but you dying, and it has been like this since s1, hell anyone will kill you if you're getting cced for 3 seconds straight
Xavanic (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=HàrrowR,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nyGTalPh,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-07-06T15:14:48.887+0000) > > I understand that you're frustrated and i had this conversation a thousand times over the years on the boards, first of all the classic ADCs shouldnt do x or shouldnt have y, who says that? Why shouldnt ADCs be mobile? Some of the oldest adcs {{champion:81}} {{champion:18}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:67}} pre rework {{champion:104}} all very very mobile, so it's not a mistake someone at riot accidentally made and gave some marksmen mobility, it's made by design. > > Yes some marksmen do get tanky like Ez and Lucian, but there are trade-offs to that as well, Lucian has very short range and Ezreal is almost completely skillshot reliant, just as any mage, if Ezreal was ap only and had the same playstyle, would you still complain? > > And lastly, no, crit marksmen DO NOT CRIT FOR 800 DAMAGE, i don't really know what people think that carries can do but critting for 800 damage is not one of those unless you're draven with shiv and a rfc for one auto maybe. Let's do some simple math if you have 350 damage, times a 225% crit multiplier you do 800 damage per crit, sounds about right? Yes, if you started playing league 2 minutes ago and never heard about armor, every champion in the game even the enemy ADC at lvl 18 has 50% damage reduction with BASE armor, meaning that even if your enemy has 0 armor items you literally need 700 damage to crit for 800 per auto, now lategame Jhin can pull this off but it's his signature mechanic. Anyone that build a single armor item will reduce this damage significantly, i mean {{item:3026}} {{item:3047}} these two items alone would make a 350 damage carry crit for like 250 damage , MAYBE, meaning that you need to get arpen, which helps, but it still wont make you crit for 800 and it means that you now don't have as much space to buy any defensive items so really if the enemy adc is full glass canon don't be surprised he's dealing so much damage, you can literally kill him with 1-2 abilities. > > Also if crit was removed tomorrow or gutted to 150% what do you think would happen, cause this has happened before, people just switch to other on-hit or lethality adcs even with armor items, carries seem to do far too much dmg, hell around the time i posted, i had played a game with ninja tabi and 200+ armor and lucian still won any duel i tried, vaynes mobility is annoying but it's not particularly strong....same with graves, lucian and ezreal however are far more difficult to deal with their incredibility toxic mobility, im not saying marksman shouldn't have x or shouldn't have y, but they should have a power budget....which lucian and ezreal clearly don't
> [{quoted}](name=Xavanic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nyGTalPh,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-07-06T23:40:41.870+0000) > > even with armor items, carries seem to do far too much dmg, hell around the time i posted, i had played a game with ninja tabi and 200+ armor and lucian still won any duel i tried, vaynes mobility is annoying but it's not particularly strong....same with graves, lucian and ezreal however are far more difficult to deal with their incredibility toxic mobility, im not saying marksman shouldn't have x or shouldn't have y, but they should have a power budget....which lucian and ezreal clearly don't Lucian is a born dueler, he doesn't kill you because he's critting for 800 per shot, he's critting cause he's applying double botrk procs and bc stacks every auto, Lucian is one of my most played champs, i even go tankier than most with him with runes and items and he can duel just about anyone, the trade off is that he doesn't have as much dps or range as conventional marksmen, now he makes it up for with sheer tankiness and mobility which keeps him alive during a fight but he'll never outdamage Jinx,Kog,Vayne,Tristana, Kaisa etc. in a straight up team fight. And this is my point exactly, people think that marksmen should do x or not do y, if you're losing a duel to lucian every time then maybe its time to stop dueling him and wait for a team mate or a team fight, i don't duel zed or le blanc when playing Jinx, i don't duel anyone when playing jinx otherwise i'd complain all the time how its unfair that im losing every duel when the champ is clearly not meant for dueling
: Yeah my opinion on hashinshin is that he should NEVER be listen to. Like I remember way back before swain was reworked he was asking for swain nerfs keep in mind this was season 7 swain and that was the moment I knew he was bs. Guy has 0 clue what he is talking about. In my opinion the biggest problem in top lane is snowball, riot should shift power from early game to mid and land game with a lot of the champions and buff the defensive starting items for top lane.
> [{quoted}](name=boricCentaur1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEEwwR3E,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-07-05T02:39:20.260+0000) > > Yeah my opinion on hashinshin is that he should NEVER be listen to. Like I remember way back before swain was reworked he was asking for swain nerfs keep in mind this was season 7 swain and that was the moment I knew he was bs. Guy has 0 clue what he is talking about. > > In my opinion the biggest problem in top lane is snowball, riot should shift power from early game to mid and land game with a lot of the champions and buff the defensive starting items for top lane. He's wrong about a lot of things but is also right about a lot of things, it's just the fact that he's complaining like all the time so there's a lot of info to go on to, you could just look at all of the things he said that were wrong and say hey this guy doesn't know anything, or you could look at all of the things that he got right and think he's always right. He was complaining about klepto top laners, ranged top laners, iceborn gaunt viktor and issues like that way before anyone ever noticed that to be a problem, he's also completely right when complaining about gangplank or panth and just how unfun the dynamic is of them pressing q whenever youre in range and then just finishing you off. I mean he even calls out champs that he plays for being strong like Aatrox for example and has a good understanding of top lane champion's strengths and weaknesses. Though his complaining is sometimes so ridiculous and that's the charm of it, i remember a video of him being a lvl 3 kled with 60% hp, diving a full hp lvl 4 nasus, barely not killing nasus and dying and then he goes like, you know what guys, nasus is just seriously overstat and everyone loses their shit. One time he dived a fed Draven that had tabis and his support, they had to blow literally every CD to kill him and Draven was left at like 150 hp and then he starts complaining about supports or draven or something, it's actually funny af
Andevar (NA)
: Maybe it's because you got hit by her Q, and walked into range of her dash. Meanwhile anyone within an ADC's attack range gets melted before they can get to them because of supports like Alistar and Thresh.
> [{quoted}](name=Andevar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wJ0ZEAQW,comment-id=000e00000000,timestamp=2019-07-06T04:25:45.306+0000) > > Maybe it's because you got hit by her Q, and walked into range of her dash. > > Meanwhile anyone within an ADC's attack range gets melted before they can get to them because of supports like Alistar and Thresh. So what's the difference? I don't mind Diana killing me with a full combo, why would you be pissed that you can't kill an adc if not one, but two players threw all of their abilities at you,would you be just as pissed if that was thresh + diana combo that killed you or is it specifically the adc, like what's the difference?
JackMcCarry (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Andevar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wJ0ZEAQW,comment-id=00020000000000010000,timestamp=2019-07-06T04:27:46.328+0000) > > Phantom Dancer provides a survival shield. > Iceborn gauntlet on Ezreal provides armor. > Any AD can build health, it doesn't even have to be armor. Black Cleaver and other items could make you virtually unkillable. > > This added on with a COMPETENT support makes it difficult for an assassin to perform his job. > > I'm going to guess you're on of those people that scream ADC's and mages are weak and assassins are overbuffed and unhealthy though. I love these double edge arguments > Any AD can build health, it doesn't even have to be armor. Black Cleaver and other items could make you virtually unkillable. So black cleaver makes marksmen unkillable, yet... you also claim everyone else melt in 1-2 seconds? so what does that mean about zeds who build black cleaver? are they unkillable? > This added on with a COMPETENT support makes it difficult for an assassin to perform his job. Yes, an assassin going in 1v2 should have a hard time doing his job, you're going vs a duo of players by yourself, put a support with ANYONE and an assassin will have a hard time pulling a 1v2, yet a fed talon/rengar/zed/eve will delete most marksmen before the support can even react
> [{quoted}](name=JackMcCarry,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wJ0ZEAQW,comment-id=000200000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-07-06T15:39:52.424+0000) > > I love these double edge arguments > > So black cleaver makes marksmen unkillable, yet... you also claim everyone else melt in 1-2 seconds? so what does that mean about zeds who build black cleaver? are they unkillable? > > Yes, an assassin going in 1v2 should have a hard time doing his job, you're going vs a duo of players by yourself, put a support with ANYONE and an assassin will have a hard time pulling a 1v2, yet a fed talon/rengar/zed/eve will delete most marksmen before the support can even react [](https://gyazo.com/5677178cfbd1da4fe53afcab4b297daa) https://gyazo.com/5677178cfbd1da4fe53afcab4b297daa The boards in a nutshell, i mean i've literally seen a guy argue that Garen shouldn't be able to die 1v2 or even 1v3 when facing adc+support cause he is a juggernaut and the whole fantasy of the class is that he is an unstoppable force, like why would you think that is acceptable
Andevar (NA)
: Phantom Dancer provides a survival shield. Iceborn gauntlet on Ezreal provides armor. Any AD can build health, it doesn't even have to be armor. Black Cleaver and other items could make you virtually unkillable. This added on with a COMPETENT support makes it difficult for an assassin to perform his job. I'm going to guess you're on of those people that scream ADC's and mages are weak and assassins are overbuffed and unhealthy though.
> [{quoted}](name=Andevar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wJ0ZEAQW,comment-id=00020000000000010000,timestamp=2019-07-06T04:27:46.328+0000) > > Phantom Dancer provides a survival shield. > Iceborn gauntlet on Ezreal provides armor. > Any AD can build health, it doesn't even have to be armor. Black Cleaver and other items could make you virtually unkillable. > > This added on with a COMPETENT support makes it difficult for an assassin to perform his job. > > I'm going to guess you're on of those people that scream ADC's and mages are weak and assassins are overbuffed and unhealthy though. Black cleaver doesn't make you virtually unkillable and just cause Ez can build iceborn gaunt and Lucian can build BC doesn't mean all other adcs have this privilege, supports are meant to keep you alive, what would be the point of either support or adc if it didn't make the assassins job any harder? And no i think mages are the strongest class in the game, a good mage player will deal more damage than an adc (overall) while also having more surviveability, more utility and more agency on his own, and i don't even mind assassins, i know how to itemize against them (buying GA right after your core build for example will help) Phantom dancer is an item i've wanted since forever literally, it finally made ADCs not feel like they're out of tissue paper, the downside of course is lower damage and burst than shiv rfc, so you can't really complain about both as most adcs aren't really building double zeal anymore at least not RFC + Shiv The real issue that people have is the s6-s7 mentality of ADCK in 2k17 lul, im not sure if a lot of players started playing during that time period or what but ADCs aren't meant to be free food for everyone neither are they meant to be glass canons {{item:3072}} {{item:3046}} {{item:3026}} {{item:3139}} {{item:3025}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3163}} {{item:3091}} {{item:3047}} there's a ton of different defensive options and runes that adcs can go into, the issue during those seasons was that all of the adc base stats and abilities were nerfed, items as well, so you literally had to go full glass canon to even have a semi-decent damage output, this made the class horrible, everyone could kill you in a second especially some of the strongest picks of that time like Syndra which killed me personally at least a dozen times with ult only. i'm not sure why people don't mind dying to a fed top or mid laner or the enemy team getting carried by a fed jax/katarina/yasuo etc. but lose their minds when a fed Vayne kills them 1v1 or is carrying the game, the only reason i see is the mentality that people have of adc should be a useless free kill role for me to get fed on so when it doesn't happen it blows your mind
Andevar (NA)
: Akali, Sylas, Yasuo, Zed dishing more damage out than an ADC? What game are you playing? First, Zed and Akali are burst champs, so they deal a significant amount of damage to a single target. Second, ADC's deal sustained damage and by far outdamage any single class if they're competent.
> [{quoted}](name=Andevar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wJ0ZEAQW,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-06T04:29:21.471+0000) > > Akali, Sylas, Yasuo, Zed dishing more damage out than an ADC? What game are you playing? First, Zed and Akali are burst champs, so they deal a significant amount of damage to a single target. Second, ADC's deal sustained damage and by far outdamage any single class if they're competent. I meant overall during the game, any champ can top the damage chart, a fed zed going around the map killing people will statistically deal more damage overall especially if the game ends in like 20-25 mins before the AD starts being usefull https://gyazo.com/ddcfc0ad06bf449a8160e05c7793a32e both my and the enemy adc is second lowest damage dealer https://gyazo.com/ff4bfeb6e7ec0be2f977311bb1487c12 both me and the enemy adc second in damage dealt, kassadin did 20k more damage than me https://gyazo.com/5deb1e3b0763a37e0908b6200b29a343 enemy tristana completely shut down and i can't find anyone to hit cause Qiyana and Karth are going around killing everything https://gyazo.com/67313ffc2683bedf3489af692a5940b1 me being a 15/7 kog maw, having only 2 k more damage than 2 of my team mates, meanwhile enemy adc is second lowest, this is what i mean https://gyazo.com/4c21183fa42a831e041c8161cfec0226 im the top damage dealer, but look at the enemy team, Jhin is shut down completely and is again second lowest damage dealer, dealing only 5k more than his support and this is just a couple of my last games
: ADC's will always remain a problem so long as crit is in the game, no one likes being right clicked by a fed/late game ADC and in dying in 1 or 2 seconds. Everyone always goes on about lack of counterplay but the only counterplay to an ADC is to kill them before they can even attack you or play jax who can dodge autoattacks
> [{quoted}](name=hhaavviikk,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nyGTalPh,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-07-06T11:25:43.439+0000) > > ADC's will always remain a problem so long as crit is in the game, no one likes being right clicked by a fed/late game ADC and in dying in 1 or 2 seconds. > > Everyone always goes on about lack of counterplay but the only counterplay to an ADC is to kill them before they can even attack you or play jax who can dodge autoattacks If it isn't crit then it's guinsoo and on-hit , if it isn't that then people are complaining about lethality adcs having too much burst, so i guess that crit really isn't the issue here, i don't like the enemy zed missing all of his skillshots, landing just E and duskblade auto and his ult proccing for 1k damage killing me instantly, but its the game
: ok lets just go back in time, they changed crit, all adcs got buffed, then changed crit back very few got nerfed, your argument is dumb, yes they are weak, yes the role sucks, yes counting on your supp to be good is rough, but its the role, if you dont like it get a friend to supp you or switch roles, adc puts out so much damage, alot of them have dashes some sort of CC or insane outplay potential, they also have defensive options, if you dont buy them you will get one shot, an assassin one shot you? wait so the fact they have 55 lethaily and are made to do that and you have 60 armor had nothing to do with that? its the way the game has to be, if adcs got tanky and put out damage why would anyone play anything other then an adc, and yes alot of adcs are OP, why can vayne do 14% of my max health every 3 autos and theres and item that lets her double proc that? why can lucain shoot me 6 times in 2 seconds and all of them crit? why does ezreal q do 700 mixed damage when he has 3 items, the role isnt broken some of the champs are, some of the items are, but they have to be weak for the game to be fair
> [{quoted}](name=TheBrothersGrymm,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nyGTalPh,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-07-06T07:03:51.529+0000) > > role isnt broken some of the champs are, some of the items are This can be said for any role so why bitch and moan about adcs, {{champion:84}} is the most disgusting champion in this game, i've seen her do shit that literally made me uninstall the game for a while, {{champion:157}} {{champion:142}} {{champion:112}} {{champion:8}} {{champion:517}} {{champion:107}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:11}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:38}} {{champion:30}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:55}} You have dozens of champs with completely absurd mechanics or kits that will annoy the living crap out of you, hell depending on your elo Nasus can be the most frustrating thing you can see in-game, the only ADC i'll understand people complaining about is Vayne cause she can be a nightmare to deal with and can kill anyone no matter how tanky they are, otherwise there's just some games where whatever the fuck you do you're not dealing enough damage, they have shields they have heals they are all tanky etc. and you're sitting there playing Ashe with your d*ck in your hand doing 100 damage per auto while being an immobile free kill
Xavanic (NA)
: I'm fine with most adcs, but some are very problematic and tbh, should really see nerfs {{champion:51}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:498}} {{champion:81}} {{champion:236}} are all extremely frustrating for varying issues {{champion:236}} {{champion:81}} have far too much mobility for marksman, on top of this, they both get away with tankier builds making them much harder to deal with {{champion:498}} {{champion:51}} have some of the ultimate denial abilites, which already make them rather frustrating to play against, esp with how quickly caits traps arm now {{champion:145}} is just outright fucking bullshit, she can just change up how she's building to better suit her, on top of this, she is among the hardest to win against due to her having more dmg then most other marksman to a degree, one of the big issues though, is just how powerful supports are rn, champs like {{champion:40}} {{champion:117}} {{champion:99}} are all great examples of what make adc's too fucking strong Let's also not forget the problems with crit rn, it's far too strong and tbh, really should be nerfed to 150% dmg rather then 200% (at least for ranged champs), as your essentially doing 600 - 800 dmg an auto with the current crit system, so your not even needing to play as an adc, since you 3 bang any assassin that gets near you, and since flash is still a thing, you just dodge their dmg, kill them, and keep going (this is where the problems with xayah and cait really shine, since they don't even need to flash) To be completely honest, marksman and melee carries should never be balanced on equal terms, as marksman will always outshine the melee carry, you always need to budget power towards the fact that said champ is ranged
> [{quoted}](name=Xavanic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nyGTalPh,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-06T06:52:22.994+0000) > > I'm fine with most adcs, but some are very problematic and tbh, should really see nerfs > {{champion:51}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:498}} {{champion:81}} {{champion:236}} are all extremely frustrating for varying issues > {{champion:236}} {{champion:81}} have far too much mobility for marksman, on top of this, they both get away with tankier builds making them much harder to deal with > {{champion:498}} {{champion:51}} have some of the ultimate denial abilites, which already make them rather frustrating to play against, esp with how quickly caits traps arm now > {{champion:145}} is just outright fucking bullshit, she can just change up how she's building to better suit her, on top of this, she is among the hardest to win against due to her having more dmg then most other marksman > to a degree, one of the big issues though, is just how powerful supports are rn, champs like {{champion:40}} {{champion:117}} {{champion:99}} are all great examples of what make adc's too fucking strong > Let's also not forget the problems with crit rn, it's far too strong and tbh, really should be nerfed to 150% dmg rather then 200% (at least for ranged champs), as your essentially doing 600 - 800 dmg an auto with the current crit system, so your not even needing to play as an adc, since you 3 bang any assassin that gets near you, and since flash is still a thing, you just dodge their dmg, kill them, and keep going (this is where the problems with xayah and cait really shine, since they don't even need to flash) > To be completely honest, marksman and melee carries should never be balanced on equal terms, as marksman will always outshine the melee carry, you always need to budget power towards the fact that said champ is ranged I understand that you're frustrated and i had this conversation a thousand times over the years on the boards, first of all the classic ADCs shouldnt do x or shouldnt have y, who says that? Why shouldnt ADCs be mobile? Some of the oldest adcs {{champion:81}} {{champion:18}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:67}} pre rework {{champion:104}} all very very mobile, so it's not a mistake someone at riot accidentally made and gave some marksmen mobility, it's made by design. Yes some marksmen do get tanky like Ez and Lucian, but there are trade-offs to that as well, Lucian has very short range and Ezreal is almost completely skillshot reliant, just as any mage, if Ezreal was ap only and had the same playstyle, would you still complain? And lastly, no, crit marksmen DO NOT CRIT FOR 800 DAMAGE, i don't really know what people think that carries can do but critting for 800 damage is not one of those unless you're draven with shiv and a rfc for one auto maybe. Let's do some simple math if you have 350 damage, times a 225% crit multiplier you do 800 damage per crit, sounds about right? Yes, if you started playing league 2 minutes ago and never heard about armor, every champion in the game even the enemy ADC at lvl 18 has 50% damage reduction with BASE armor, meaning that even if your enemy has 0 armor items you literally need 700 damage to crit for 800 per auto, now lategame Jhin can pull this off but it's his signature mechanic. Anyone that build a single armor item will reduce this damage significantly, i mean {{item:3026}} {{item:3047}} these two items alone would make a 350 damage carry crit for like 250 damage , MAYBE, meaning that you need to get arpen, which helps, but it still wont make you crit for 800 and it means that you now don't have as much space to buy any defensive items so really if the enemy adc is full glass canon don't be surprised he's dealing so much damage, you can literally kill him with 1-2 abilities. Also if crit was removed tomorrow or gutted to 150% what do you think would happen, cause this has happened before, people just switch to other on-hit or lethality adcs
Rioter Comments
Andevar (NA)
: I love how ADC’s can burst champs better than any assassin player and have a support to peel anyone off from them.
> [{quoted}](name=Andevar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wJ0ZEAQW,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2019-07-05T00:51:22.431+0000) > > I love how ADC’s can burst champs better than any assassin player and have a support to peel anyone off from them. Yes i love making stuff up as well, meanwhile 3 games ago Diana dealt 3000 damage in a single combo to me
Haze97 (EUW)
: What bs. If you were going 5/1, not even a Zed who is a level below you would kill you reliably.
> [{quoted}](name=Haze97,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wJ0ZEAQW,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-07-04T21:14:02.779+0000) > > What bs. If you were going 5/1, not even a Zed who is a level below you would kill you reliably. How so? Do ADCs go for any tank items first making them more durable to REQ + duskblade auto from Zed? It really doesn't matter how fed you are if you have no defensive items and get bursted down in a second you die just as easily as 1/5 adc if caught off position
Haze97 (EUW)
: Most top laners at the very least need to jump into a group of enemies to take em out. You don't get to complain when most of your champions are safer than any top laner and deal even greater dps on average.
> [{quoted}](name=Haze97,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wJ0ZEAQW,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-04T21:12:47.859+0000) > > Most top laners at the very least need to jump into a group of enemies to take em out. You don't get to complain when most of your champions are safer than any top laner and deal even greater dps on average. And top laners aptly are 10x as tanky as adcs, so what is your stupid argument even about? Morde has to be close to deal damage, he also gets a heal a shield and can disappear while 1v1ing your squishy adc, look at akali,sylas,yasuo,zed,irelia etc. they can all dish out more damage than an adc while having bullshit mechanics and mobility that completely negates any danger of being melee
man of tin (EUNE)
: Remember when other classes were able to go bot for a while? That was fun, too bad it got changed instantly.
> [{quoted}](name=man of tin,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wJ0ZEAQW,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-07-04T18:14:48.122+0000) > > Remember when other classes were able to go bot for a while? That was fun, too bad it got changed instantly. Fun for who? You're a top laner at least you should understand, is it fun when Vayne goes top? Is it fun when Viktor, Quinn or Ryze go top? How was having bruisers/mages bot that insta gib adcs fun for anyone except those that wanted to play mages bot for some reason even though they already have a lane ?
: Its mainly riots love for caitlyn. Caitlyn is the best adc in the game rn. She cant one tap any adc from. 800 units at 20 minutes. That damage stacking braindead shit pisses me off. But what makes me even more angry, is that kindred never evem gets to have 650 range, yet caitlyn starts with it. Kindred "infinite stacking" my ass. The most stacks you will get playing competitively is 10 and if your really ahead, 13. No more. And you know what 13 stacks is? 650 range. Yet cialtny, this b*tch gets to have 650 units level one, AND more damage, and more utility, and a kill secure. Riot just nerf cancerlyn
> [{quoted}](name=GodlyBane,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wJ0ZEAQW,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-07-04T17:56:30.512+0000) > > Its mainly riots love for caitlyn. Caitlyn is the best adc in the game rn. She cant one tap any adc from. 800 units at 20 minutes. That damage stacking braindead shit pisses me off. But what makes me even more angry, is that kindred never evem gets to have 650 range, yet caitlyn starts with it. Kindred "infinite stacking" my ass. The most stacks you will get playing competitively is 10 and if your really ahead, 13. No more. And you know what 13 stacks is? 650 range. Yet cialtny, this b*tch gets to have 650 units level one, AND more damage, and more utility, and a kill secure. Riot just nerf cancerlyn Wtf are you talking about, Cait more utility, i swear boards is completely delusion, kindred can literally keep the entire team alive for i dont know how many seconds while healing them afterwards while having crazy burst and kite potential, kindred would be crazy strong even without the range and you want her to have more range than Cait? What's next, assassins demanding to have same hp as tanks?
: Which none of the ADCs in soloqueue want to do, so if they lose to it they complain and want it out of their lane.
> [{quoted}](name=Ragnaveil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wJ0ZEAQW,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-07-04T17:54:34.228+0000) > > Which none of the ADCs in soloqueue want to do, so if they lose to it they complain and want it out of their lane. Can you imagine an ADC main not wanting to play a class that feels and looks completely different, how selfish they are for not wanting to play a completely different class than they enjoy playing and that has literally only one lane to go to
: Don't you remember when they tried to do something to bot lane and the endless rage it caused because mages and bruisers could go there? Was fun, but did not last cuz muh ADC privilege
> [{quoted}](name=Jimmy Rustles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wJ0ZEAQW,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-04T17:22:40.489+0000) > > Don't you remember when they tried to do something to bot lane and the endless rage it caused because mages and bruisers could go there? > > Was fun, but did not last cuz muh ADC privilege Or you know, maybe ADC is an unique playstyle that people enjoy and can't play on other lanes, so if there's no point in going adc bot cause a mage/bruiser does your job better than there's no point in playing the game at all? I stopped playing during that time, i guess a lot of people did as well, why would riot throw their players and money away just to make mages and bruiser ( who are all viable top/mid/jg) go bot lane?
: Stormrazor - out of play
Stormrazor is a good design if there's no crit in the game, but since crit always existed and will probably always exist, there's just no point to this item, it delays your core zeal + IE build, lowers your late game potential than if you just went crit, kinda delays all of the other items including defensive ones like GA or Merc cause you just need to get your crit first etc. Even if items like IE were nerfed and Stormrazor was made somehow viable again, this would just switch the meta to on-hit again, Vayne,Varus,Lucian would be played, maybe even lethality MF and Jhin, so honestly this item just doesn't fit into the game at all even if it's a good item on paper, i honestly kind off liked the item, it was to crit carries what botrk was to on-hit carries, a solid all around first item that doesn't really need other items to work, only problem was botrk goes perfectly into guinsoo, a match made in heaven, while SR kinda awkwardly goes into crit, if the item was changed so it gave crit it could work
Xavanic (NA)
: i would like to see multiple marksman get nerfs tbh....im tired of them just sitting there and outdueling champs like master yi in melee range simply because their too strong, but draven definitely needs some nerfs,
> [{quoted}](name=Xavanic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0LhWubkf,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-05T23:13:16.383+0000) > > i would like to see multiple marksman get nerfs tbh....im tired of them just sitting there and outdueling champs like master yi in melee range simply because their too strong, but draven definitely needs some nerfs, Show me a video of any marksman outdueling master yi in melee range please.
MrHaZeYo (NA)
: ~2k games in 9 years? Your normal MMR is prolly just messed up if you're playing with low levels. Just ignore the toxic people. If someone leaves use the rest of that time (whether its till defeat or surrender) and push your champion a bit harder so you start to get the mechanics back. Ya it sucks, I get it, but make use of the time.
> [{quoted}](name=MrHaZeYo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i9V4dREj,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-03T04:35:28.164+0000) > > ~2k games in 9 years? Your normal MMR is prolly just messed up if you're playing with low levels. > > Just ignore the toxic people. If someone leaves use the rest of that time (whether its till defeat or surrender) and push your champion a bit harder so you start to get the mechanics back. Ya it sucks, I get it, but make use of the time. 2000+ hours not games, and its just a guess, for all i know it might be 4000 hours, i've been playing since s1
Rioter Comments
: tbh it's just broken horse shit and i'm sure it'll seep through their skulls eventually that if late game carries get their power in early game then early game champs are just pointless
> [{quoted}](name=Hammermancer,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=gLAmwKkn,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-04-26T14:25:27.855+0000) > > tbh it's just broken horse shit and i'm sure it'll seep through their skulls eventually that if late game carries get their power in early game then early game champs are just pointless Which ones exactly, does vayne being good early negate zed, fiora, riven or are you worried that she's overshadowing other early game carries like Lucian or Draven. Cause if a late game carry is strong early, this still doesnt affect anyone other than the people he's laning whit, just as I dont care if kayle is good early but was designed for late game, it doesnt affect my playstyle unless my top goes 0/7, in which case he shouldve played a good counter
: Yeah, sadly, you're probably gonna have to bite the bullet here. The latter half of your screenname - despite being a par-for-the-course wordplay on "cocoon" - is unfortunately seen in the connotations of a racist slur. There are really only a few options I can suggest here; 1) Abandon the wordplay and make the screenname crystal clear ("Ice cocoon", "frozen cocoon", whatever), though doing that in and of itself may run the risk of an exceedingly dumb edge case (though I personally wouldn't count on it.) 2) Rework the name with (subjectively) better wordplay. I can't make any suggestions for your other screennames, but perhaps "Chrysalice" would be better to run with - both in terms of it being appropriate, as well as (subjectively) being a step-up from the previous wordplay. It may or may not lose some of the value you ascribe to it, but as a fellow creator, I find that reworking and revamping designs has a certain catharsis to it. 3) Change the name wholesale. It'd certainly bite to go down this route, but, seldom is a good course of action an enjoyable one. If you still have the option to change the name, I would absolutely not change it back to what triggered the punishment in the first place. A forced namechange is the first punishment for inappropriate screennames, and the next step is a 14-day suspension; as much as it sucks to give up a screenname you have an attachment to, it's better than suffering a punishment typically given for egregious offenses when Riot initially gives you the opportunity to avoid it.
> [{quoted}](name=Umbral Regent,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=0LXvhw5U,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-04-12T10:05:52.790+0000) > > Yeah, sadly, you're probably gonna have to bite the bullet here. The latter half of your screenname - despite being a par-for-the-course wordplay on "cocoon" - is unfortunately seen in the connotations of a racist slur. > > There are really only a few options I can suggest here; > > 1) Abandon the wordplay and make the screenname crystal clear ("Ice cocoon", "frozen cocoon", whatever), though doing that in and of itself may run the risk of an exceedingly dumb edge case (though I personally wouldn't count on it.) > > 2) Rework the name with (subjectively) better wordplay. I can't make any suggestions for your other screennames, but perhaps "Chrysalice" would be better to run with - both in terms of it being appropriate, as well as (subjectively) being a step-up from the previous wordplay. It may or may not lose some of the value you ascribe to it, but as a fellow creator, I find that reworking and revamping designs has a certain catharsis to it. > > 3) Change the name wholesale. It'd certainly bite to go down this route, but, seldom is a good course of action an enjoyable one. > > If you still have the option to change the name, I would absolutely not change it back to what triggered the punishment in the first place. A forced namechange is the first punishment for inappropriate screennames, and the next step is a 14-day suspension; as much as it sucks to give up a screenname you have an attachment to, it's better than suffering a punishment typically given for egregious offenses when Riot initially gives you the opportunity to avoid it. Against what group is coon used as a slur, honest question never heard this slur in my life, is it even in english
: I don't understand why we don't have more melee only or ranged only items.
Most people answered your question already, but another one is just build diversity. Its fun changing things up and finding new ways to play a champ, if we locked items into class specific categories then the whole reason for items to exist disappears, you can then just switch over to the hots system where there's no items and your champ just scales directly.
: I'm struggling to understand your point to start, mainly how its relevant to this discussion. You seem to think that some of the people in this post just dislike Vayne for little reason other than "she's strong rn and a bother to deal with" when that's not really the case. It's not very conducive to a constructive conversation if a person keeps deviating from the topic at hand by interjecting adjacent topics that they believe others are trying to passively make. I'm not saying its unimaginable to land a skillshot to kill anyone, those are combat requirements for many champs especially for important abilities. Same for using skill to be "good" and using more than right clicks, actually I really don't like it when all it takes to kill is right clicks. I just wanted to address your placement of Yorick as a counter to Vayne, which I think he isn't a very reliable counter to her due to their kit interactions, I think she counters him. >unimaginable for you to actually need to land a skillshot to kill an adc, oh no, ... to kill her I cant just right click But more than anything else I believe this statement shows just why Vayne could use some rethinking, because that's almost exactly how she works: no skillshots to kill anyone (even for important effects), and all right clicks to kill targets. I'd appreciate it if u could attempt to refocus on the topic of Vayne and why u think she specifically is or isn't an issue based on the OP's post. I think its possible to come up with some creative solutions to some of the issues that some people perceive she has
> [{quoted}](name=FlameHalbrdOkido,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gyTzkb4k,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-30T23:18:47.776+0000) > > I just wanted to address your placement of Yorick as a counter to Vayne, which I think he isn't a very reliable counter to her due to their kit interactions, I think she counters him. Im not saying he's a hard counter, he can just kill her,like most other champions in the game. Im extending the discussion from Vayne to other adcs and topics cause i've been on these boards for years and they are consisted of top and mage mains, every day for years there are posts complaining about adcs and its for the stupidest reasons. Mostly people get so upset whenever an adc gets any form of defense or a way to fend for himself, it leads me to believe people literally cannot imagine an adc as anything but a free gold bag that sometimes gets to carry, in which case if he's on the enemy team you can be sure that you'll see it on the boards complaining how adcs are super op and can 2 shot a full build tank while having only 2 items. Im not saying Vayne is not strong, all im saying is some of these posts are completely unrealistic, i saw a post complaining about how "bot lane meta" is back on, looked at the game, Vayne had 24 kills by 25 minutes, oh no shit she's carrying, if Jax had 24 kills by 25 mins you wouldn't bat an eye if he 1v5d you, hell if soraka had 24 kills she could solo carry, i just hate the double standards. One more very similar example, Ryze main crying that Vayne is op cause she killed him 1v1, you know the difference in kills? Ryze 3 kills, Vayne 20 kills, and he's crying that she killed him 1v1 lol, she was full build in 25 mins. Vayne is just the hate flavor of the month, before that it was Lucian if you can recall, every damn day you come on the boards 4 Lucian hate threads, you wanna know why, cause you couldn't just jump him and delete him while missing all your skillshots. Do you remember the Tristana hate era? Oh no she can self peel and escape, she fucks over melees so hard! No shit, and melees fuck over 90% of the adcs super hard but hey that's the way the game should be right. The only adcs not many people are crying about are those that are super immobile and require you to have a proper support to work, which again leads me to believe that any adc that can fend for himself gets a dispropriate amount of hate, oh yeah, like Ezreal, now i remembered him. Like i said i just hate the double standards, i've been playing this game since S1, and for some reason people utterly hate whenever an adc isnt a useless pile of garbage, usually by saying the same thing you're saying now, well they have undodgable damage and things like that, except i took a lot of time playing every class (except support) in the game and there are clear weaknesses and strengths to all of them, people complaining must've never played an adc in their life, i can easily be first on the damage charts with Ahri (which only has 2 easy to land skillshots) while also having more agency thanks to my charm while also being better at 1v1 thanks to my burst,cc and mobility and being also harder to kill thanks to my R and Zhonya, so tell me do all of these benefits come at the costs of having 2 skillshots? People tend to forget that melees are heavily AA oriented with little to no skillshots, but Harrowr they are MELEE!!!! Yes, and they have so much shit in their kits that they might as well be ranged, Yasuo WW that blocks all ranged damage while having a shield and infinite dashes? Oh i feel so bad for him, Fiora that has a Q on a 1.5 cd while having MS boost from her ult while having crazy lifesteal, while having the ability to parry a Veigar ult if need be, nevermind her proccing her R. There's countless examples of this, just look at Trynd, he perma crits with one crit item almost, his R is a cancer to deal with, look at Riven and Jax with Shojin, just look at these champs that are "melee" yet have enough cc and defense that they can outright facedive into 5 people and get off a couple of kills, nevermind them fighting 1v1 or 1v2, or god forbid knowing how to team fight properly and going in in the right moment.
: > [{quoted}](name=HàrrowR,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gyTzkb4k,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-29T23:58:24.302+0000) > > I put Yorick there cause I main Vayne and adcs, my side roll is top and Yorick is my main there, all he has to do to kill her is hit his E, he can literally let maiden and ghouls kill her 100-0, Really? That's funny, I guess u could do that, but only if u hit ur E on her > he gets crazy ms and can trap her in a cage, But if u kno Yorick then, u kno the MS bonus isn't crazy, its just around 60 flat bonus MS, sure it tags on a slow but compared to vayne its not that much. Also not only does his E have a delay, but once it lands it also has to spread out so Vayne has 2 chances to dodge even if Yorick was able to predict her movements, we both know that E is hard 2 hit and even moreso against mobility, the same is said for his Cage which she can counter with Q or her AS. >nevermind his one q deals half her hp If he can get in range 2 use it with her knock back and Dash. > The instant an adc isnt free gold, let alone strong, people on the boards lose their mind. Ok maybe people say that kinda stuff in other threads, but that hasn't been brought up by anyone other than u. I'm suggesting it's a better idea to address the topic of this thread rather than bringing in other points that's not relevant to this thread. No one here is saying Vayne should be free gold, or that she shouldn't be strong, we are just saying we dont like the WAY she is strong right now, because we think its too easy for her to access her strengths without allowing any type of response from certain types of champions. So maybe people in other boards posts have lost thier minds, but most of us in this thread would like to discuss how Vayne could be adapted so she can still be strong but her strengths are gates by more than hitting 2-3 basic attacks. I for one would like to see her play more like the monster hunter her theme promises, but gameplay doesn't deliver, I think we of all champion player types and Vayne mains deserve a champion who is more engaging to play as and against. There's things u can do to achieve this like placing gating mechanics on her dmg to cause her to position differently, or wait, or ramp up over time, or collect things that strengthen her dmg vs a particular target, like how a monster hunter would play, and also gives opponents an opportunity to deny those strengths. > Some melees have it rough vs Vayne, guess what, most adcs, even mages have it even rougher against bruisers,slayers,assassins,juggernauts,divers etc. > > You all of a sudden think its not fair that Vayne can kill you and you can do nothing about it, guess what, welcome to the other side, most carries,mages and supps just accept their fate when yasuo,zed,yi,fiora,rengar,kled,trynd whatever gets on top of them. I dont think its good to try dri start pulling in all these other points to support a claim in this discussion, simply because they aren't relevant and distract from the main topic. But I'll humor u once to attempt to put an end to it: it's not like many people dont already AGREE that "not being able to do anything as X Champ kills you" sucks. The fact that other marksmen/mages have it rough against some melee champs still isn't a valid excuse for Vayne. The fact that some slayers and divers kill marksmen/mages with little/less/no counter play still isn't a valid excuse for Vayne. This isn't a double standard I would agree that many of those still have issues that need to be addressed, but that's NOT the topic of this discussion. We can discuss them in another thread, one at a time, but this threads topic is Vayne so let's stay focused on her for now
> [{quoted}](name=FlameHalbrdOkido,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gyTzkb4k,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-30T02:13:24.491+0000) > > Really? That's funny, I guess u could do that, but only if u hit ur E on her > > But if u kno Yorick then, u kno the MS bonus isn't crazy, its just around 60 flat bonus MS, sure it tags on a slow but compared to vayne its not that much. Also not only does his E have a delay, but once it lands it also has to spread out so Vayne has 2 chances to dodge even if Yorick was able to predict her movements, we both know that E is hard 2 hit and even moreso against mobility, the same is said for his Cage which she can counter with Q or her AS. > > If he can get in range 2 use it with her knock back and Dash. > > Ok maybe people say that kinda stuff in other threads, but that hasn't been brought up by anyone other than u. I'm suggesting it's a better idea to address the topic of this thread rather than bringing in other points that's not relevant to this thread. No one here is saying Vayne should be free gold, or that she shouldn't be strong, we are just saying we dont like the WAY she is strong right now, because we think its too easy for her to access her strengths without allowing any type of response from certain types of champions. So maybe people in other boards posts have lost thier minds, but most of us in this thread would like to discuss how Vayne could be adapted so she can still be strong but her strengths are gates by more than hitting 2-3 basic attacks. I for one would like to see her play more like the monster hunter her theme promises, but gameplay doesn't deliver, I think we of all champion player types and Vayne mains deserve a champion who is more engaging to play as and against. There's things u can do to achieve this like placing gating mechanics on her dmg to cause her to position differently, or wait, or ramp up over time, or collect things that strengthen her dmg vs a particular target, like how a monster hunter would play, and also gives opponents an opportunity to deny those strengths. > > I dont think its good to try dri start pulling in all these other points to support a claim in this discussion, simply because they aren't relevant and distract from the main topic. But I'll humor u once to attempt to put an end to it: it's not like many people dont already AGREE that "not being able to do anything as X Champ kills you" sucks. The fact that other marksmen/mages have it rough against some melee champs still isn't a valid excuse for Vayne. The fact that some slayers and divers kill marksmen/mages with little/less/no counter play still isn't a valid excuse for Vayne. This isn't a double standard I would agree that many of those still have issues that need to be addressed, but that's NOT the topic of this discussion. We can discuss them in another thread, one at a time, but this threads topic is Vayne so let's stay focused on her for now Tl;dr Your excuses for yorrick vs vayne are still making my point, its unimaginable for you to actually need to land a skillshot to kill an adc, oh no, I have to be good to kill her I cant just right click on her, oh how could riot be so cruel
Dynikus (NA)
: People label vayne as a tank killer and nothing else, ignoring that she's also very much so intended to be a duelist. She is somewhat of a niche pick though, as she doesn't scale the same way other hyper carry adcs do. She isn't a team fighting God that melts everyone while sitting behind the front line. When caps played her mid last year, it was as a niche counter to the tank heavy team the opposing team drafted. What bugs me is people who continuously say she should be a _bad_ pick when outside of a tank meta.
> [{quoted}](name=Dynikus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6k361kFg,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-29T16:58:01.731+0000) > > What bugs me is people who continuously say she should be a _bad_ pick when outside of a tank meta. This basically, crit Vayne, or even this on-hit Vayne,really doesnt even need her silver bolts to destroy a squishy, most of the damage will come simply from autos and Q, the W proc is just the icing on the cake
: > [{quoted}](name=HàrrowR,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gyTzkb4k,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-03-29T21:01:20.767+0000) > > So all of the melee assassins, duelists and slayers can kill her, while rest of them have a 50/50, this is my point exactly, oh the humanity, how dare she have a fighting chance, how dare she not die instantly when you look at her, how dare she makes an enemy think before jumping on her, he should be able to miss all combos and kill her obviously Hey, can I just ask why u put Yorick in this list? Most of those other champions have a way to minimize Vaynes strengths, but I don't see it with yorick. I think there's been a slight misunderstanding. No one is saying that Vayne shouldn't be able to do what she does to a certain degree. Some just think its currently too easy for her to abuse how her kit and items work against melee champs too consistently. I don't think people want her to suck, its more like they want it to not suck when they play against her especially when they are NOT playing an assassin or skirmisher, because currently Vayne doesn't really have to put in the same amount of work to take out a melee champion as it does for a melee champ to either avoid her or take her out. I don't believe anyone is saying vayne should be easy to take out at all Heck most of the time I'm sure people just want to be able to avoid/ not die to her rather than straight up eliminate her, but the way she works makes that hard and it sucks even more for those who aren't Slayers, because both escaping or killing vayne aren't even viable choices and that makes it even easier for her when it was nvr hard 2 begin with.
> [{quoted}](name=FlameHalbrdOkido,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gyTzkb4k,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-29T23:34:40.306+0000) > > Hey, can I just ask why u put Yorick in this list? Most of those other champions have a way to minimize Vaynes strengths, but I don't see it with yorick. > > I think there's been a slight misunderstanding. No one is saying that Vayne shouldn't be able to do what she does to a certain degree. Some just think its currently too easy for her to abuse how her kit and items work against melee champs too consistently. I don't think people want her to suck, its more like they want it to not suck when they play against her especially when they are NOT playing an assassin or skirmisher, because currently Vayne doesn't really have to put in the same amount of work to take out a melee champion as it does for a melee champ to either avoid her or take her out. > > I don't believe anyone is saying vayne should be easy to take out at all I put Yorick there cause I main Vayne and adcs, my side roll is top and Yorick is my main there, all he has to do to kill her is hit his E, he can literally let maiden and ghouls kill her 100-0, he gets crazy ms and can trap her in a cage, nevermind his one q deals half her hp, so yeah, when I was starting out with yorick I got a legit 1v5 quadra kill only to be taken down by the last guy, no one thinks thats broken, cause oh, he's melee, he's top, I guess he's supposed to do that. The instant an adc isnt free gold, let alone strong, people on the boards lose their mind. Some melees have it rough vs Vayne, guess what, most adcs, even mages have it even rougher against bruisers,slayers,assassins,juggernauts,divers etc. You all of a sudden think its not fair that Vayne can kill you and you can do nothing about it, guess what, welcome to the other side, most carries,mages and supps just accept their fate when yasuo,zed,yi,fiora,rengar,kled,trynd whatever gets on top of them. You see jinx get blasted by Hecarim and you never think,oh boy, how does that player feel, is it really fair, what is he supposed to do (heca is just an example, change him for any other melee and you still get a situation where you can miss literally everything and facetank all the damage just cause you have 2x the base stats, tank items, and more damage in your abilities than the carry) Im always top of both teams with damage dealt while playing yorick, and I dont have to sacrifice any agency the way an adc does. I just hate the double standards, Riven can 1v5 and the same people that play riven hate Vayne and cry op, its the reason I stopped playing league last month, too many op shit and the only way to play the game is playing the top 25 champs out of 140
: Eve, fizz, kayn (assuming you mean s.a.),rengar(maybe?) and zed are assassins. They are made to burst carries before they retaliate. Jax and yi are duelists. Their existance is to duel others and both have tools to deal with someone like vayne. Now, fiora, riven, renekton, yasuo, wu and lee is 50-50. There are a lot of variables to take into account. Rek and yorick however i seriously doubt they can kill vayne in 1v1. Rek usually built 1 dmg item and then tank items. Vayne loves to fight champs that built defensive items. Yorick has no mobility whatsoever. Sure he can try to lock her down but it wont work because of vayne's ulti and q. And im pretty sure that vayne outdamage's him hard.
> [{quoted}](name=VanaQuish,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gyTzkb4k,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-03-29T17:51:47.731+0000) > > Eve, fizz, kayn (assuming you mean s.a.),rengar(maybe?) and zed are assassins. They are made to burst carries before they retaliate. > > Jax and yi are duelists. Their existance is to duel others and both have tools to deal with someone like vayne. > > Now, fiora, riven, renekton, yasuo, wu and lee is 50-50. There are a lot of variables to take into account. > > Rek and yorick however i seriously doubt they can kill vayne in 1v1. Rek usually built 1 dmg item and then tank items. Vayne loves to fight champs that built defensive items. Yorick has no mobility whatsoever. Sure he can try to lock her down but it wont work because of vayne's ulti and q. And im pretty sure that vayne outdamage's him hard. So all of the melee assassins, duelists and slayers can kill her, while rest of them have a 50/50, this is my point exactly, oh the humanity, how dare she have a fighting chance, how dare she not die instantly when you look at her, how dare she makes an enemy think before jumping on her, he should be able to miss all combos and kill her obviously
Rioter Comments
DeusVult (NA)
: Vayne's high play rate shows what a problem her overall design is
Yeah her ''problem'' is you cant get a free kill while rolling your face on the keyboard. I swear if I had a $ every time someone cried on these forums cause they lost a 1v1 against Vayne, oh no, she cant do that she is supposed to be free gold for me cause Im so bad that I cant kill anyone except an immobile adc without a support, hell forbid an adc can actually defend himself. Melees have so much bullshit mechanics and get so much free shit that im really in awe when someone has the guts to cry about adcs needing nerfs when 90% of them literally depend on another player and their team in general to keep them alive. Yes Vayne is strong, shes the Yasuo of adcs, but the game has so much op shit in it that you need to fight fire with fire. {{champion:28}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:141}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:107}} {{champion:421}} {{champion:62}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:83}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:11}} Just a handful of melee that can completely destroy vayne, and dont talk to me about cds when you have spear of shojin that turns champs like riven and jax into unkillable death machines
neon sunset (EUNE)
: The skin was available if you played 10 match made games in season 1. I completely disagree with this suggestion. I have this skin and that's because I played this game since the early years. So I would feel bad if someone who didnt play this year got the chance to have that very rare and exclusive skin. Basically is a tribute to the og players.
> [{quoted}](name=neon sunset,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=pptTjdwg,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-03-27T09:23:34.914+0000) > > The skin was available if you played 10 match made games in season 1. > > I completely disagree with this suggestion. I have this skin and that's because I played this game since the early years. So I would feel bad if someone who didnt play this year got the chance to have that very rare and exclusive skin. Basically is a tribute to the og players. I agree, didnt know it was this rare, thought everyone had it
: > [{quoted}](name=Cheini,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R15ivKnj,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-03-24T17:10:38.014+0000) > > ..or don't flame supp when they pick Ashe, ty! I have never flamed anyone for who they choose or question it, and that is so irrelevant to this...
> [{quoted}](name=Lyxx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R15ivKnj,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-03-24T17:27:36.647+0000) > > I have never flamed anyone for who they choose or question it, and that is so irrelevant to this... This is boards in a nutshell, dude not even read what you wrote, hell maybe not even the title, commenting something irrelevant and completely missing the point of everything you said
: Usually lifesteal is really good to pick up third, but even just a vamp scepter is fine until you finish another item, especially if you have healing runes already. Champs who buy ER->Zeal can also really benefit from an IE next, since the damage amp from that is very powerful, Last Whisper items should only be bought on them third if they're needed.
> [{quoted}](name=Rathar Dashing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R15ivKnj,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-03-24T19:19:18.666+0000) > > Usually lifesteal is really good to pick up third, but even just a vamp scepter is fine until you finish another item, especially if you have healing runes already. > Champs who buy ER->Zeal can also really benefit from an IE next, since the damage amp from that is very powerful, Last Whisper items should only be bought on them third if they're needed. You don't need to tell me, i put a lot of thought into what im building which i can't say the same for most people i see in-game or in these boards, people will religously build what's recommended or what they saw a streamer build that one game. I'll frequently go even {{item:3026}} third item if it means shutting down the enemy assassin completely and it works, also lifesteal is a great option for third item, i honestly believe that champs whose build paths include {{item:3153}} as their first item have an unfair advantage giving them early sustain and surviveability that most other carries need to wait for to get until a lot later in the game. That's why i believe Vayne, even though she's my favorite adc, is bonkers, she doesn't need crit or arpen to work, meaning she can go all out on lifesteal and defensive items and still outdamage other carries, for example {{item:3006}} {{item:3153}} {{item:3124}} {{item:3046}} {{item:3026}} , compare that to a carry that builds {{item:3006}} {{item:3031}} {{item:3094}} {{item:3085}} {{item:3036}} for example, no revive,no armor, no lifesteal,no shield, no slow etc. Ofc you do get more range and aoe but im not sure it really makes up for it, but it might depend on your playstyle. Also i love the {{item:3508}} {{item:3086}} {{item:3031}} combo and buy it an all champs that can pull it off, i already talked about this but it fell on deaf ears, i believe damage tramps AS every damn time cause more damage means more ability damage (unless you scale with AS), more burst and easier kiting as well, this is my full damage sivir build with no, i repeat, no zeal items, was just trying it out for fun, and see how it went https://gyazo.com/05ea3cc815770eac76dc397d03397ef5
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HàrrowR

Level 62 (EUW)
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