: I honestly think using the same colours for mana expenditure and magic damage goes against the second goal.
maybe i oversee something, but what mana expenditure "numbers" you are seeing here now? EDIT. aH you mean the - Numbers on Anivia? Well they are there with a "-" and not sure how that is set up pernamently or as a finished work.
Mezo (EUNE)
: Because Rylai's is giving you 90 ap, which is should be around 70~75. Ryze used to build 2 mana items without any cdr before the ap itemization rework in 8.4, now he can get 20% cdr and 15% from runes without getting {{item:3173}} , so he is open to get any items he wants without putting himself behind. Rylai's need some changes in the build's path and the slow duration imo, And lose some ap in return.
imo rylais should not be made into a more popular item. Maybe it needs changes but not changes to amke it popular cause perma slows on abilities are not healthy. If Riot would want every ability to slow later in the game, they could simply ad that at rank 5 of a spell for example. Rylais is allready strong on champions like amlzahar with his e or Zyra/Heimer with towers/lants, shooting, slowing, slowed targets becoming even easier to hit with other spells and more shots. If a Casio wants to slow you with each e cause she does not ened to buy boots, she can. Would be a pain if also Syndra, karthus and oriana would slow with each q or Nami not only has ult and e but also w to slow, Sona not only slowign with empowered e auto but also every q, etc. If Twin gets some buffs ok, thats a one time thing. But let Rylais be an underused item. if anything, Frozen mallet could get more attractive for Melees (NOT RANGE looking at Gnar) as it simply is basicly for nothign a godo choice beside if you want a lot of health (and even there steraks is just straight better with the shield and tenacity and ad it gives). Edit: I wanna point out that every Health Ap Item will get to be abused wheter you buffs it by Vladimir. Even Twin Shadows, we saw Frost Queens Builds on him (ok, gave ogld too, but it did not get sold or stayed on tier 1/2 like other abusers did).
: ***
so you didn't play season 8, season 7, any season before (cause not even one season shows you even near plat) and you complain over ranked even if you not play? God no wonder why no one can take you seriously
Mezo (EUNE)
: Can we get some serious changes for these items {{item:2065}} {{item:3905}} {{item:3116}} ? like making them more efficient on mages support. Also give us some reasons to buy this item{{item:3092}} because there is no point of doing that..
I would maybe agree on 3 out these 4 items, but Rylais really doesn't need a buff right now. it is allread quite strong ona few champions, mid or support. And a buff could kill mid and even toplane/jungle balance. Like we see even Ryze Players building Rylais second.
: ***
You literaly played all past seasons just gold. Op.gg says Gold 5 season 8 and Season 7. And you are now angry cause...you are now stucked in gold 3? Wtf. You know that they removed all 5 Divs and and added Grandmaster and Iron? By this logic alone if everyone remainded their rank strenght, Plat 5 would have become the new Gold 1 and Gold 5 the new Silver 2, Silver 5 the new bronze Silver 5 Bronze 3 and Bronze 5 Iron 4 (Master became Grandmaster, higher Diamond became Master, Diamond 5 new Diamond, Plat 1-4 should be the same). So yea, you should have been Silver 2, got probably lucky and reached Gold 1 and now got a bit down corrected to Gold 3. Thats the same as when Riot removes high plats and low Diamonds out of Master+, who got early Season luck. And ofcourse you could have maybe become stronger. But not in a month from "Gold 5 level" to "Plat 5 level". So don't be mad cause you no longer are in Gold 1. And do you really want a reset? A reset would mean you would get placed around Silver 4/ Bronze 1. Thats how the fkc resets works, placing you a tier strenght down as how Challengers and Grandmasters get allr eseted to Master. That would be an equal power down, not just a division cause a division in low elo is nearly nothing compared to a divsion in Diamond.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 6
It's nearly impossible to get feedback on Urgot about that topic from Rioters but how do you expect Ad Builds to be lesw suboptimal id he still gets no acces to melee build or melee advantages as a full range? You can't go lethalaty like a Riven, Jarvan, Pantheon as his dmg is boz as frontloaded with cc but rather around q poke, w is dmg over time and he has to dance around you. Ult itself benefits nearly nothing from lethalaty, as unlike Pyke Ult Executuon Threshhold scales not with neither of Ad nor Lethalaty, only the inital Dmg can profit a bit from it. Lifesteal (same as lethalaty) let Urgot be extrem squishy and even ig you reduce w to 0 cs; you attack closest target/target hit by q/e/r. Bramble Vest is allready a hard counter to Urgot w, it also counters building ls together with even easier accesable via applying and finished item builfpaths from executioners calling and morellonomicon. Trinity and Spear of Shohin suck on Urgot. Ga mostly due ccause the stats are just bad.**** Onhit, again, makes him pretty squishy but could be an option. But here is the main part: easiest way for nore ad builds would be allowing melee Items and efdects (NOT Tiamat Line) on him. Like **MAYBE** Urgor could count during w, where he can't right-click enemies, monsters and minions , is also slowed and has currebtly stull his shield fir more tankyness, he ciuld count as a melee **similar to Mega Gnar** , who also is tankier and slower as Mini Gnar (cause no w hypwr ms) . -> Most Important It would Urgot to buy Steraks but only to be activated during w. While it may be an Ad Defensive Item, it is STILL an ad item and farr less defensive as like a Gargoyels, where Urgot Players currently even sacrisfy dmg once they activate it. -> Urgot would gain more Ms from Bc and a stronger Slow from Mallet during w. Currently BC into Full Tank is meta and Feozen Mallet seems never worth. Keep in mind that Urgot w mcould increase voth effects, but also Urgot slows himself with w. It is like as if Nasus would need to slow himself to be able to slow enemies. Or like Galio, who sliws himself for the taunt. But rather a BC Mallet Style as a Rightous Glory Randuins Style or not? -> Urgot would stack Rageblade in 4 stacks instead of 6. Now that could potentially be string, but then again Rageblade leaves Urgot with no Resistances, is more expensive as nornal Tank Items and w focus can be random. Also other rune effects or other effects like Deadmans Plate Slow would apply. -> And yes, i think we all agree that applying tiamat waveclear, ravenous aoe heal or Titanic health scalded cone dmg on a 3.0 as onhit should especially stay disabled. But yea, just raw Number or scaling changes, just putting the shield from w to e will not fix magical Urgots Itemization Problems as he has no other choices as Bc into Tank currently. So don't expect more Ad focused builds to be just stronger threw these changes. Like **prior to Patch 8.11** where Urgor was not even considered strong and needed some qol buffs, Urgot players got promised some new Item choices with the 2 new Bruiseritems, but as all the others got scammed when it got canceled to To much changes (8.11 adc update, now mostly reverted) and Conqueror beeing to strong (now reworked and ground nerfed) As well as Riot reworking er to be a better Adc Item, seeing a small minority of Bruisers pick it and well, changing it into the new Spear of Shojin as if all Bruisers like Darius, Garen, Urgot could use it; who ALL build 1 Dmg Item into Full Tank. (Wrote from smartphone)
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Scarletmeow,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=QkwlXTpc,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2019-02-20T16:40:44.899+0000) > > Any thoughts on maybe removing the mastery points being shown in loading screen?? It's making champion mains lives hell. I wholeheartedly support this. I queue into ranked -> Oh shit a 1.2 mllion mastery player CAMPED ALL GAME.
On the other hand, people can/could also come up with the idea to camp the guy with the lowest mastery points, as he has the least experience with his champ and his combos, itembuilds if they fall back, etc. While meanwhile, the 1.2 million mastery player should be expected to maybe have witnessed enough scenarios of beeing camped and maybe knows how to deal with that. So yea, a Jungler could think both ways, to maybe not gank the experienced illaoi Player just to die 2v1 and feed the experienced Ilaloi player ;)
: My guess is 550 range and her melee form seemed to be similar to Irelia so I expect her to have a long-melee range.
Yes, she has an 550 range and a 175 melee range. Live Kayle has a 525 Range and a 125 melee Range.
Cameramon (EUW)
: Does that mean we shouldnt expect a crit update that addresses the problem of output randomness this year?
"The same procedure as last year, Miss Sophie? “The same procedure as every year, James.” Or: Riot on RNG: We don't like output Rng and at some point we will work on it Random Player: Will it be this year? Riot: No no, we have other things to work, see how Runes Reforged works out and do a major patch every second patch (and also have to work half a year on a mediocore Crit Nerf adjustment, bring that Update out, work again half a year to fix the issues to finaly revert mostly with another Update which just lowers the numbers again from the prestate, new pd and new sr and Spear as Snowball Bruiser Item). Random Player: Will it now be this year: Riot: ehhhh, i don't think you will like this answer for now {{sticker:garen-swing}} https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/0RYiPNBI-quick-gameplay-thoughts-december-13
: I wish Riot could just remove the Magic Pen from Oblivion orb and give it Grievous Wounds instead
Now i wanted also earlier grivious wounds just for consistency and i wanted also just soem magicpen nerfed. But i can see why early magic pen sucks on midlane. Lets jsut assume the named items are bought on the respective lanes Bot, Top, Mid. Bot:{{item:3033}} is good vs lifesteal which gets fairly bought lategame beside maybe {{champion:119}} or {{item:3153}}, but for these early Gw are mostly not worth. Now if a heavy heal support is there (probably just {{champion:16}} ) , you can try to get early {{item:3123}} even if it sucks in the buildpathtiming. Top: {{item:3075}} is an okish item and {{item:3076}} works good vs Champs like {{champion:36}} or {{champion:48}} , but they can outplay the debuff by simply not autoattackign you (unless you taunt them). Ofcourse that is easier for a Mundo who throws qs and has a free sunfire as for a Trundle who can jsut autoattack you. Even if Bramble is not quite balanced and maybe should jsut be remvoed, you can kinda ingnore it if necesary. Mid: With {{champion:84}} heal gone in 9.3 where will just be {{champion:8}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:103}} {{champion:69}} {{champion:245}} {{item:3146}} mostly. And i tell you what: Your suggested change would completly cripple Vlad and Swain. {{item:3165}} Gw are based on the champ who holds it and does dmg. Vlads and Swaisn whole Laningphase is balanced around the soly fact that their enemys most likly go first {{item:3802}} item, {{item:3020}} and then {{item:3165}} . If People could rush Grivious Wounds vs Vlad and Swain on Midlane, their whole championkit would be half as effective. And no, the solution then would NOT just to buff their heals cause then we would jsut circlejerk around, make other Gw items far weaker in effect and should wonder why we did your suggestion in the first place. Of all lanes Midlane may have the lowest number of sustainc ases, but they are the strongest dependent on that. Like Swain falsl super late off and Vlad is also just decent late.
Velasan (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=HoR RooneR,realm=EUNE,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=bOoAxRmj,comment-id=001f0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-30T21:13:41.977+0000) > > Like what champs example pls. xD I understand your concerns, but actually there have been several including Ryze, Urgot, Azir, and Kalista were all kept weak for a really long time until some of them got reworked. I actually really appreciate the fact that Riot did make a point of checking up on these characters after such a long time. I know a lot of people are excited for the Mordekaiser rework for similar reasons.
yes for Azir and Kalista, no for Ryze abd Urgot. They had nothing to do to Urgot and peole realized at some point, that he wa quite good with Spellbook. And while ryzes winrate may have been low, that alone did not mean he was in the gutter. He just remains a high skilled champion while Riot even made every item scale super good on him. Like giving Archangel 20% cdr for example while it had before 0 and he needed to go morellos for the 20%.
FafliX (EUW)
: I'm a bit sad you are going back to the RNG crit meta. It's really not fun to randomly get crit, especially if it's just 1 or 2 attacks. At least Stormrazor was a bit of a band aid to make crit less random, but not only didn't it fix the underlying problem, now you are even removing that part. Any plans to finally shift crit from RNG to something less frustrating, like a % damage modifier?
while i support the replacing of crit and would ahve liked Riot to go that route isntead spendign time on TWO Crititemupdates, the second mostly fixing what could not be fixed over multiple patches what the first one did: Current Stormrazor is less of a bandaidfix and more of a problem. For exampel the interaction it gives Graves or Jhin or Draven is just stupid.
: So why is riven meta and not fiora?
pest or cholera, aids or cancer, i see {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
Meddler (NA)
: We'll be hitting some problematic level 2 junglers. Best example right now is Camille losing the ability to stun non champs with E. Need to assess state of 9.2 changes in general before talking junglers generally, especially if like Shyv they had champion specific changes in 9.2 as well. Passive should work on Elder Dragons (pretty sure it always did, if you've got a case in game where it's not gimme a yell).
What makes the balance team thing that will solve her jungle problematics? If the Balance team is allready on removing Akalis heal completly and removing Aatrox heal vs Minions, could not the same be made Camiles w, to either remove it completly or remove it vs minions and monsters? If Camille top is viabel she is also quite to strong early, but Camille Top should be easier to balance as Camille Jungle. Maybe then buff her in other ways like increase some dmg.
: do you not see that ER was useless to a majority of the champs that used to build it, but was extremely op on the 3 champs that did use it? theyre obviously buffing ER for the champs that used to use it, and nerfing it into Spear for jax, yi, and renekton by making the passive take up a lot more of the items cost efficiency.{{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
These are not Nerfs, these are Buffs. Master Yi didn't even went this item, he still goes onhit. https://u.gg/lol/champions/masteryi/build/ https://champion.gg/champion/MasterYi/Jungle https://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/MasterYi You probably meant Riven. And current Pbe Spear of Shojin does not have {{item:3133}} , but {{item:3067}} {{item:1036}} . And i think we can all agree that health isf ar better as mana on champions like Riven, Renekton, ponteital Aatrox. Even on Jax. They now even get tankier with this item too A nerf would mean if Riot would finaly decide to reduce the "and basic attacks refund 20% of your remaining non-ultimate cooldowns." to 10%.
: No, it is even worse....
Seeing as potential old and new Users are {{champion:58}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:266}} (all champions with an activation Ult), 3 of these not using mana and Jax also not a guy who ever had big Mana Problems for eneding to buy a manaitem beside his Trinity - it makes the item even better, as they also not have to pay for a useless {{item:1027}} which most could not use. And iit will be an open question if {{champion:236}} will continue to buy new Spear or jsut go for reverted ER for the mana passive and the readded crit which opens him up to go altegame for more of a crit build.
: it sort of is, Spear of Shojin {{item:3161}} is the current Essence Reaver {{item:3508}} minus the on-hit mana refund and minus the 300 mana, for the same price I don't really see this item being any better than the current essence reaver as it is just a worse version of it
Seeing as potential old and new Users are {{champion:58}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:266}} (all champions with an activation Ult), 3 of these not using mana and Jax also not a guy who ever had big Mana Problems for eneding to buy a manaitem beside his Trinity - it makes the item even better, as they also not have to pay for a useless {{item:1027}} which most could not use. And iit will be an open question if {{champion:236}} will continue to buy new Spear or jsut go for reverted ER for the mana passive and the readded crit which opens him up to go altegame for more of a crit build.
prog4mer (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Häxel,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=FGhIHTj3,comment-id=00390000,timestamp=2019-01-15T04:47:31.369+0000) > > Does no one here sees that Spear of shojin is just current Essense Reaver? without mana and without 5ad for same price? NERF it must costs 200-300g less
Seeing as potential old and new Users are {{champion:58}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:266}} (all champions with an activation Ult), 3 of these not using mana and Jax also not a guy who ever had big Mana Problems for eneding to buy a manaitem beside his Trinity - it makes the item even better, as they also not have to pay for a useless {{item:1027}} which most could not use. And iit will be an open question if {{champion:236}} will continue to buy new Spear or jsut go for reverted ER for the mana passive and the readded crit which opens him up to go altegame for more of a crit build.
: > [{quoted}](name=Häxel,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=FGhIHTj3,comment-id=004000000000,timestamp=2019-01-15T18:18:51.273+0000) > > Most Volibears do not (at least in Korea, Na, Eu, idk about OCE). Sure there may be some Trick2g Shenanigans who may build it, maybe together with Trinity, as some players build Titanic similar to how they sometimes build it on Udyr and Shyvanna too. But nowadays most Volibear Players just go Full tank/Full movementspeed and not even Trinity. They stack health to tank and ms via Rightous Glory and Deadmans to reach enemies with their q. Only at lwoer elos you may also have a steraks as the only ad item. > > Also i clearly talked not about the waveclear aspect of Titanic on Tanks. The item should not be for only this (but is it nowadays mostly). I talked about having itneresting tankitems. Like tankitems and tanks are mostly so boring no wonder why the least people like playing tanks. it's cool how they made Ornn a carrytank, who helps his teammates with his items and actualy does make dmg on his own, but therefore they cut so much of his own tankyness. And items like sunfire are jsut boring and only good in the earlygame, as people even sell it in the lategame. Like what if Sunfire had an active effect that would strongly icnrease the damage for a few seconds, maybe under special circumstances, idk. > If titanic would scale more with health elss with basedm and would make you alsof ar tankier, it could be interestign to icnrease tankdmg. Or give tanks a good reason why they would nowadays want frozen heart except "i just want a lot of armor". > > My mainpoint was evena ctualy that Atmas implementation would ahve been a first good step into more interestign defense Options. > mages have really cool items liek zhonyas, Banshees, seraph, hextechitems. Ads also have cool effects like ga, Phantomdancer, rapidfirecanon and statikks. Stuff that is interesting to use and provides dmg. Thats what is missing on Tanks and makes them so much less appealing, as they also lack the ability to solocarry in Soloq then. Even fi Tanks willg et brokena gain in Competive, it will be a lacklsuter to play them in low comunication environrments which is soloq. It sounds like you dont like playing a tank my bro. Tank is going in balls to the wall and soaking up ridiculous amounts of damage before you die last, like a hero to a movie. Thats what i like about tanking. Call it masoschism but i love soaking damage for my team.
Its not about me not liking to play tanks. its about 90% of leauge players not liking to play tank, but then they paly if if tanks are broken or a frontline is needed. And then no one wants to be the tank like support and jungle saying the top should go tank and top like "stfu, you both could also go tanks instead of entchanters or assassins or mages at supp and jungle. Sure is theoretical soakign dmg cool enough, but Leauge is a competive game where most players want to rank up or at least to get more wins as looses. But soloq is not competive. Also the move to "die last" happens not that much as most tiems you ahve a tank in the 4 enemies and an enemy tank in the 4 allies and then they try to kill the opposite tank faster as the enemy team. Sure in a heavy assassin diver meta there may be the tank whos tays alst, but if that happens, then he will die uselessly mostly cause he can't soak dmg for his carries fi his carries are allready dead. And surely he will not be seen as a hero for that by many. You see Soloq is not like Competive with great comunicationa dn teamplay. and it comes down to that in a Bruisermeta Tanks are jsut strong in the earlygame and get killed by the adc or bruiser lategame. And in the Tankmeta you get 5v5 Deathball teamfights where mostly just the better teamcombination decides, not even the actual ingame skill. Like you can perfrom the perfect Amumu, Malphite or Alistar engae, if their team is better, has more dmg, has maybe little deengage, they just straight up win. And Ritos aproach to that is just increasign slightly numbers or implementing more cdr/more cc, so a good engage jsut lets no counter to fight back. But in the end there is no skill or big reward and it can happen to yourself that the enemy just engages faster and only by that wins - seeing a good engage potential is not only possible for challenger players as even goldplayers can do that. But beeign completly dependent on your team championpicks, a little on your teamskill (like if they even group up for the enemy malphite or at least are not that so stupid) and beeing dependent if you or the enemy can just engage faster makes palying tanks such a 50/50 thign which is just not that quite enjoyable fi you wanna rank up and/or enjoy carrying. And even if Entchanter champions also can't carry as much games as like a mage or adc or a fed assassin/Bruiser, even they have better pickrates as support tanks mostly cause they have itneresting items and directly prevent their adc from dieing with a bit more influence of skill. On the other side not even the laningphase of top tanks feels much skillrewardign as you have a simple, easy to udnerstadn way how to play that with your spells.
: dude volibear use titanic. the vanguard doesn't needed it because they have a thing called sunfire cape to wave clear...
Most Volibears do not (at least in Korea, Na, Eu, idk about OCE). Sure there may be some Trick2g Shenanigans who may build it, maybe together with Trinity, as some players build Titanic similar to how they sometimes build it on Udyr and Shyvanna too. But nowadays most Volibear Players just go Full tank/Full movementspeed and not even Trinity. They stack health to tank and ms via Rightous Glory and Deadmans to reach enemies with their q. Only at lwoer elos you may also have a steraks as the only ad item. Also i clearly talked not about the waveclear aspect of Titanic on Tanks. The item should not be for only this (but is it nowadays mostly). I talked about having itneresting tankitems. Like tankitems and tanks are mostly so boring no wonder why the least people like playing tanks. it's cool how they made Ornn a carrytank, who helps his teammates with his items and actualy does make dmg on his own, but therefore they cut so much of his own tankyness. And items like sunfire are jsut boring and only good in the earlygame, as people even sell it in the lategame. Like what if Sunfire had an active effect that would strongly icnrease the damage for a few seconds, maybe under special circumstances, idk. If titanic would scale more with health elss with basedm and would make you alsof ar tankier, it could be interestign to icnrease tankdmg. Or give tanks a good reason why they would nowadays want frozen heart except "i just want a lot of armor". My mainpoint was evena ctualy that Atmas implementation would ahve been a first good step into more interestign defense Options. mages have really cool items liek zhonyas, Banshees, seraph, hextechitems. Ads also have cool effects like ga, Phantomdancer, rapidfirecanon and statikks. Stuff that is interesting to use and provides dmg. Thats what is missing on Tanks and makes them so much less appealing, as they also lack the ability to solocarry in Soloq then. Even fi Tanks willg et brokena gain in Competive, it will be a lacklsuter to play them in low comunication environrments which is soloq.
: alright: * not a fan of that **Phatom Dancer**{{item:3046}} change. should stay like it is now. item-fantasy wise feels more like a "dance around in a battle". like it does now. **Rapid Firecannon**{{item:3094}}, **Statikk Shiv**{{item:3087}}, **Runaans Hurricane**{{item:3085}} didnt really change at all. these items are fine. **Essence Reaver**{{item:3508}} thank god. the current one is so niche that most of the champs that would use it cant use it since its a very aggresive choice **Spear of Shojin**{{item:3161}} since this item doenst really exist yet i cant say much but i found the other version with like the damage reduction a cool idea but on certain champs maybe broken. **Infinity Edge**{{item:3031}} i think this version is way better than the current one. but you could make a new item that has the effect of the current IE with like the true-DMG. more items are always good! **Last Whisper**{{item:3035}}, **Lord Dominiks Regards**{{item:3036}}, **Mortal Reminder**{{item:3033}} are fine **Stormrazor**{{item:3095}} i found the idea of the "Energized Stormrazor" from [Crit Item Explorations](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/oA7EoIrf-crit-item-explorations) a cool idea; or maybe like when stormrazor is charged it has like an AOE hit around the target you hitted * if you want to make a "Defensive PD"{{item:3046}} make i a complete new item. More items are always better
Does no one here sees that Spear of shojin is just current Essense Reaver?
Adalvar (EUW)
: At the very least put back the current IE passive that doubles crit, so that you can go into 3 items and actually have item slots left
Well people liked to have 3-4 Crititems. I am not event alking about me but they liked old ER and also liked the diffrent zealitems. Also you don't have to go alltime on 100% Crit. Pre 8.11 70-80% Crit was also fine enough and only Sivir and Xayah went all the time IE ER 2 zealitems while other Adcs mosttimes went double Zeal and just situational 3 zealitems or also er in exchange for less lifesteal/pen/survibility.
Hadriel (NA)
: What does the PD change have to do with true damage, though? How does this change help reorient true damage? The shield being able to take true damage? But that's not a change to the nature of true damage, it's not any more useful against true damage than it is against any other type of damage so it's not decreasing its effectiveness against squishies in any way. What's more, Phantom Dancer isn't currently attempting to fulfill the role of the broad defensive item, and the presence of true damage isn't really affecting the decision to buy PD or not, so I'm really not sure what the logic is here.
I think he means that current Dmg Reduction of Pd does not work on Truedmage like he means, but a healthsield is a healthshield. On the other side Ie gets its Truedamage remvoed again and that argument may be nice for Conqueror, Yi, Vayne truedmg adn other few ones. I don't know how much of an argument that is cause Pd Shield just plobs on Lowlife and if the shield is away, its away while dmg reduction works permanent and liek autos with Truedmg not reaches over 50% of a champions dmg and will especially not be the mainburst on allready having low resistances adcs. Sure pd was harder to proc with "vs the last attacked target", so people needed to think about it. Also its lost the ghostign effrect within 550 range (which to be fair was to short of a range on most adcs except for example on Vayne, Graves, Yasuo, Trynda and Crityi).
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: Crit Item Explorations Part 2
On behalf on the Critchanges: {{item:3156}} : For which champions is this item now supposed if you are not only concerned from the mage burst but not from the adc, ad assassin or ad fighter burst as well as maybe tanks? Cause if any of them can also reach me (and most games don't just have a Corki or a mage Mid AND Bot and then 3 tanks) {{item:3046}} seems to be the better choice and you would also get Mr from Qss and/or Mercurys. And at this case it is not about "what if i want other Zealitems" - it's about whever you want much Damage and you thinking you CAN dodge their Burst OR you having little bit less offensive zealeffects but still good damage and the defensive Pd shield. Bruisers allready have {{item:3053}} which also is far better as Maw with the Health. Maybe Ad assassins need sometimes to decide if they want either steraks or maw, but in general everything on maw feels to weak and it would need in any kind of way some buffs (i don't have an export opinion which buffs would be the best threw) Cloak of Agility Return: Not sure if i like this change. Sure adcs need to be faster effective now, but i would favor it that beeing maybe not 5/6 items, but also not on first/second item and rather on 3rd/4th. And while all the changes on 8.11 with ie and Er rework and all the price increases, even for a short time on {{item:1051}} at 600 gold , pushed Adcs far to much into lategame - seeing now most changes reverted or getting moslty reverted like ie and er back to how they mostly worked before and so, i think Adcs will jsut swing abck so hard to beeing tostrong again. Like maybe i overreact on the Cloak and have a crazy idea but Ie and Er could have Brawlers instead of Cloak in their recipe. Yes people and Yasuo players could get Brawlers faster as Cloak, but would then sit on far more unspent gold before the combination and also on a lower value of Crit (kinda same idea Riot uses on Banshees with Null instead of negatrong).
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: Crit Item Explorations Part 2
I mean it is kinda cool that adcs get their {{item:3508}} back, but holding on the current Essense Reaver and fullfilling the promise to implement Spear of shojin into the game by simply renaming it and giving it it's icon feels realllly cheap. Now i would have hoped even mroe you would have just simply added {{item:3161}} and {{item:3005}} at Patch 8.12 instead of withdrawing the changes cause Critchanges shaked up allready to much the players. Cause now Crit gets mostly just reverted with little changes (Ie and Er) and all what Skirmishers, Divers and Juggernauts got out of it over the last year on Items and keystonerunes fromt he new System are the current Essense Reaver and Conqueror. The item without Defensive Stats or abilities is only godo if you snowball allready on champs like {{champion:58}} & {{champion:24}} (with Conqueror it kinda breaks Jax) and Conqueror feels also not balanced: Fighters who do not go PtA have the weaker early Game but just blatantly make Tanks feel useless in the lategame. Like i know some Rioter said that Atmas felt to much competing with Titanic and spear with Steraks, but then they come to the point that Spear was more diffrent then Steraks but atmas would not come. And i felt allready there the opposite as Spear looked far much more like a Hybrid between {{item:3053}} and {{item:3812}} :Reducing strong Burst but also lowering the impact of Burstcombos in extended fights. And we got recently a nice Buff to DD too that remvoed the item a bit out of beeing a nicheitem. But {{item:3005}} and {{item:3748}} ? Maybe Titanic was once designed as a Tankitem that increases the Damage of Health stacking targets, but it completly failed to do so as Tanks and more then half Juggernauts just get Items that make them far more tanky as Titanic and if they want Damage, they also get other Items. Like Titanic is an AA-reset - Onhit Item for {{champion:39}} & {{champion:98}} and gets sometimes used as waveclear whenever Ravenous Hydra just feels worse on Tiamat Champions (current meta seems to favor far more Ravenous but whenever you see Shaco building Titanic, you could feel both Hydras get not used correctly when a full Ad Assassin favors Health scaling item instead fo the High Ad item). And even on Titanic Metas (like whenever the Basestats are just better or Grivious Wound Items get meta favored so Ravenous feels worse) you just rush Tiamat and finish Titanic as one of the last Items most of the times as it is just not worth to upgrade. A champion like {{champion:75}} sure could use another Damageitem and Autoresets may seem cool, but it is just far more effective to build after the 20% CDR Sheenitem just full tank. And do you see Titanic on these Champions?: {{champion:266}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:6}} (Urgot can't get neither Tiamatitems nor Steraks and if by no crazyness he starts now getting the enw Phantomdancer , he will remain with the samelimited itemchoices). You have here either wacky Lethalaty/ad builds that seem only to work good on Aatrox at high elo, Phageitem into Fulltank builds or just Fulltankbuilds. Or do you see Titanic on these Vanguards {{champion:150}} (limited too) {{champion:54}} {{champion:57}} {{champion:111}} {{champion:516}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:154}} {{champion:78}} (yea her w/extended R let Riot call her a Warden even if she mostly just charges in with e anduses short r ) ? Their idea of going Damage is Sunfire/Cinderhulk, Thornmail and either Iceborn or Abyssal - these add good Damage at the Laning Phase and can make Tanks even feel to strong sometimes (nice sunfirebuff lul) but Lategame you add nearly nothing on damage and just are a meatshield that Adcs and lightier Bruisers can easily blow away (ofcourse critchanges can change the metapriorities again). And {{item:3005}} would be a great addition that theoretically any of these could use as a coreitem or a situational item. Thats why i wished it would have been added with Spear 8.12. so that even now with the Critchanges atmas would have stayed as a more stable item as the last new Items (current Essense Reaver, Stormrazor, Spear) and Spear for beeing to close to be the same with DD and Steraks could easily be removed for the sake of gettign old ER back while holding on the current one. I hope people at Riot rethink again their desicion they have made about Atmas and/or start also thinking again what will happen with the Balance of Bruisers/Tanks when the Critchanges land, as a PtA Lategamebuff and/or a Conqueror rework and/or a new Fighterkeystone for the sake of every Toplaner and Junglefighters may be appropriated.
: > [{quoted}](name=Häxel,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=tetEq7Qa,comment-id=000000010008,timestamp=2018-12-25T00:31:52.665+0000) > > First, if we include all items it would be > {{item:3091}} {{item:3124}}{{item:3135}} {{item:3165}}{{item:3020}} {{item:3151}}{{item:3001}} vs {{item:3071}} {{item:3124}}{{item:3036}}{{item:3033}} {{item:3142}}{{item:3147}}{{item:3814}} > Second, {{item:3124}} {{item:3135}} and {{item:3124}} {{item:3036}} {{item:3033}} share a passive name, so don't stacke with each other. > Especially the {{item:3916}} {{item:3035}} diffrences are important, as amges don't have a cheap grivious woudns item like {{item:3123}} or {{item:3076}} , BUT they can go (and do it like enarly every game) Max pen and gv like {{item:3165}}{{item:3135}} while adcs need to decide for max pen or less pen&gv, {{item:3036}} OR {{item:3033}} . > This design choice obviously comes from that a cheap gv item on lane would kill {{champion:84}} {{champion:103}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:8}} lanign phase but they need to stop post laningphase while there are no adcs with build in lifesteal but adcs can buy lifesteal like as an item, mostly as 5/6 item and only rarly at first. > > Third, the MOST important: LEthalaty scales with level and only givs the full value lv 18, Magicpen has the full amount lv3 or lv 9 or lv 12 allready. Like yes, would be fair if champions would just get half of the armor as they get mr. BUT WAIT: it is actually the complete opposite. Range Champions get 0.5mr per level, Melees 1.25mr per level. They end up mostly lv 18 at 38.5/53.4. Armor is given between 2.5-5armor per level and champions end up between 70-130 armor. > > Like you could say: Ofcourse lethalaty can't get the same value as magicpen, as champions also convert ad 100% to an autoattack. > You could also say: Ofcourse there needs much more armor per lv as mr, as champions also convert ad 100% to an autoattack. > But saying both, armorpen needs to be shittier AND mr needs to be far more raw is ridiculous. > > You could discuss this topic far,f aaar more, but thatyou say his opinions are bad while you look just like on one side of a cupe should feel you more bad. > > Also even if Conqueror (a bad designed rune like half of the keystone runes) exist, adc//lethalatyusers/conquerorusers. Hck Conqueror not even synergizes godo with Black Cleaver, leading to former Bc Champs even more to switch over to trinity. But beside the 2 attackspeed onhit items and now also nerfed aurarange abyssal, the rest of the 4 magicpen items you could throw on like any ap champ. {{item:3151}} and {{item:3001}} don't give pen. It's just really damn annoying to hear how supposedly Mages are overpowered when AD champs keep getting great options that do everything. I will agree for sure that Conqueror needs to be erased. Also yes lethality is best at 18 but AD can do massive damage early compared to most mages. Zoe not included in that. (that damn Q of hers)
> [{quoted}](name=INoble KnightI,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=tetEq7Qa,comment-id=0000000100080000,timestamp=2018-12-25T02:32:35.034+0000) > > {{item:3151}} and {{item:3001}} don't give pen. It's just really damn annoying to hear how supposedly Mages are overpowered when AD champs keep getting great options that do everything. I will agree for sure that Conqueror needs to be erased. Also yes lethality is best at 18 but AD can do massive damage early compared to most mages. Zoe not included in that. (that damn Q of hers) Neither does {{item:3091}} , {{item:3071}} and {{item:3380}} as they give reduction, not penetration. The point stays that all these items work agaisnt armor/mr. Old Abyssal Scepter gave Mr Reduction similar to Wits End, but as an Aura. It got changed to icnrease MagicDmg making it better vs Tanks and less good vs Squishys, yes (cause reducing like 25mr from a 45mr target was far more effective as from a 150mr target, but 15% increased magic dmg is equally effective on every cahmpion). {{item:3151}} is a Tankshredder via health dmg. But unlike {{item:3153}} which does currently just current health dmg, it does max Health dmg. Yea, {{item:1419}} does this too, but it is a junglitem and one that nearly no one buys too. And {{item:3136}} /Liandrys ahve the Madness Passive, which is similar to the Abyssal passive, but increases ALL Dmg(over the duration of a fight) and it also stacks multiplicative with Abyssal. > when AD champs keep getting great options that do everything. Oh come on. Just recently {{item:3035}} was reverted to total penetration. Years it just gave Bonus Penetration doing nothing vs Squishys while {{item:3135}} just straight up penetrated everyone with 35%magic pen. And Voidstuff is build by every Ap champ. Plus it got buffed to 40% now (which should be reverted,s ame with the 40% ap increase of {{item:3089}}/{{item:3374}} back to 35%). {{item:3157}} : protects you vs every ability of the game and has good stats (ap, cdr, good amount of armor) with a 120s cd. Meanwhile Ads have {{item:3026}} , which is one of the lowest ad items and gives no cdr/as/pen (or crit what adcs would like) and has a 300s cd. {{item:3102}} : protects you vs every ability of the game (once) and has good stats (ap, cdr, good amount of mr). Adcs need 2 items, {{item:3156}} vs the magic burst a banshees could protect (like karthus or syndra ult), {{item:3139}} vs the CC a banshees could protect you (like lux or flash malz ult). ANd yes, {{item:3814}} would do the same but it needs t be cast before and jsut givs health, no mr. THe only thing that balances Banshees strong passive is the shitty buildpath riot gave it cause otherwise the item would be far to much sued (for how strong it is secretly).
: > [{quoted}](name=Bonipherus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=tetEq7Qa,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-23T21:08:27.231+0000) > > Riot needs to address magic pen and quickly as it was a problem before with sorc boots and haunting guise and now its only switched to sorc boots and oblivion orb. {{item:3916}} {{item:3020}}{{item:3135}} VERSUS {{item:3071}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3814}} {{item:3036}} {{item:3033}} {{item:3124}}. Yeah your opinions are bad and you should feel bad.
> [{quoted}](name=INoble KnightI,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=tetEq7Qa,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-12-24T05:20:46.969+0000) > > {{item:3916}} {{item:3020}}{{item:3135}} VERSUS {{item:3071}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3814}} {{item:3036}} {{item:3033}} {{item:3124}}. Yeah your opinions are bad and you should feel bad. First, if we include all items it would be {{item:3091}} {{item:3124}}{{item:3135}} {{item:3165}}{{item:3020}} {{item:3151}}{{item:3001}} vs {{item:3071}} {{item:3124}}{{item:3036}}{{item:3033}} {{item:3142}}{{item:3147}}{{item:3814}} Second, {{item:3124}} {{item:3135}} and {{item:3124}} {{item:3036}} {{item:3033}} share a passive name, so don't stacke with each other. Especially the {{item:3916}} {{item:3035}} diffrences are important, as amges don't have a cheap grivious woudns item like {{item:3123}} or {{item:3076}} , BUT they can go (and do it like enarly every game) Max pen and gv like {{item:3165}}{{item:3135}} while adcs need to decide for max pen or less pen&gv, {{item:3036}} OR {{item:3033}} . This design choice obviously comes from that a cheap gv item on lane would kill {{champion:84}} {{champion:103}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:8}} lanign phase but they need to stop post laningphase while there are no adcs with build in lifesteal but adcs can buy lifesteal like as an item, mostly as 5/6 item and only rarly at first. Third, the MOST important: LEthalaty scales with level and only givs the full value lv 18, Magicpen has the full amount lv3 or lv 9 or lv 12 allready. Like yes, would be fair if champions would just get half of the armor as they get mr. BUT WAIT: it is actually the complete opposite. Range Champions get 0.5mr per level, Melees 1.25mr per level. They end up mostly lv 18 at 38.5/53.4. Armor is given between 2.5-5armor per level and champions end up between 70-130 armor. Like you could say: Ofcourse lethalaty can't get the same value as magicpen, as champions also convert ad 100% to an autoattack. You could also say: Ofcourse there needs much more armor per lv as mr, as champions also convert ad 100% to an autoattack. But saying both, armorpen needs to be shittier AND mr needs to be far more raw is ridiculous. You could discuss this topic far,f aaar more, but thatyou say his opinions are bad while you look just like on one side of a cupe should feel you more bad. Also even if Conqueror (a bad designed rune like half of the keystone runes) exist, adc//lethalatyusers/conquerorusers. Hck Conqueror not even synergizes godo with Black Cleaver, leading to former Bc Champs even more to switch over to trinity. But beside the 2 attackspeed onhit items and now also nerfed aurarange abyssal, the rest of the 4 magicpen items you could throw on like any ap champ.
Häxel (EUW)
: "Are you implying it would be more worth it to get Bloodthirster instead? " No, i said Lifesteal is nto worth at all. I listed the few Fighters that take Lifesteal in form of these items. Ravenous hydra is more sued but also cause it gives an aa reset, aoe damage and with that waveclear. But even Ravenous got mostly repalced yb Ttanic now. There are champs or players who sometiems still favor the lifesteala dn the bigger amount of ad instead of tankyness. But these players are still the minority. And on the other hand the biggest lifesteal fighter group. Like you have 10 Champions who maybe go Ravenous adn then you ahve together 10 Champions that go DD or Bt or maybe both. First if i count items, i will count in Boots cause Tabbis or mercurys are an important Rush item on Toplane. Second, DD is like never a 1st Item and nearly never a third (to hold it simple i count Boosts allways second). It is most times a 4th Item. In half cases you buy even the Ga before the DD. It is a far worse 1st item top cause the {{item:3077}} , {{item:3044}} , {{item:3057}} {{item:3052}} and {{item:3134}} items exist. They give a huge powerspike, Waveclear and/or 20%Cdr on the completed Item. Third Item can be the {{item:3053}} or maybe even a {{item:3026}} as Defense Options. Or you get a combination of a {{item:3044}} {{item:3077}} Set. {{champion:420}} : Good example of a 4th user in regular as we can see here: https://u.gg/lol/champions/illaoi/build/ https://champion.gg/champion/Illaoi/Top?league= on the other hand Pros in high Elo may not even get DD or as 5th itme jsut for faster paced games in this meta while low elo drags longer. So you can see sometiems there even the GA earlier or jsut compeltly replacing the DD. https://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Illaoi (i would scroll down cause Hjarnan spamed Illaoi Jungle. Interesting between that the redsttie can basicly repalce DD totaly while Ga is bought msot tiems as 4th). {{champion:266}} : At the moment Electrocute with Ghostblade Rush is really popular, delaying the BC. The data tells all what is needed: https://u.gg/lol/champions/aatrox/build/ https://champion.gg/champion/Aatrox/Top?league= https://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Aatrox Between loking at Aatrox outside of Top at Mid and jungle, DD is even less popular there as either more dmg or more Tanykness like {{item:3147}} / {{item:3742}} gets for exampel build. {{champion:114}} : A User where mostly even BT is more popular as DD if she goes for the double Ls, but items like new ER forced aslo onto her. https://u.gg/lol/champions/fiora/build/ https://champion.gg/champion/Fiora/Top?league= https://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Fiora So Fiora is obvioulsy more of a Splitpusher. Or so most Fighters Top are. So thats the counterpoint to your "DD is better for fighters because they wouldn't be able to generate that shield easily and they are more frontline focused so they would be taking the brunt of the damage compared to ADC, so the damage delay of DD is more valuable." Fighters can generate the Shield in 1v1s and also not cosntantly engage in 5v5s,e specially not in the front. A Fiora would flank good and tries to not get hit by all 5 enemies. In fact i can explain later why DD may be even needed in the current Meta on Adcs or can be a good defense option. But first, {{champion:92}} : Now i wondered myself why you even thought DD is a 1st or 2nd Item without counting Boots. And after my research on sources to prove my points on the Champs i also looked up your profil and kinda got not surprised: Your most played Champion is Riven. Funny yourslef not even rushed DD but lets look at the datawebsites and explanations.: Currently DD may be a 3rd or even 1st rush item possible on Riven. Now historically BC allaways dominated together with Ravenous Hydra for Lifesteal and Autoresets or the Penetrationbuild with Ghsotbalde Duskblade. So this can totaly be a raw meta thing. Also ER does not suit Rivena s mucha s she allready ahs super low CDs AND doesn't tneed the mana passive. BC got turned to suit better heavy fighters as Adcs. It also got it's pen nerved from 30% to 24% armor reduction, so is far worse and many fighters allready replaced BC with Trinity. Trintiy got also buffed with buffed base ad on everyone cause rune reforged and the removal of ad runes btw. Riven is by far not a heavy fighter and her Combosa re tof ast to proc good Sheen, so she is dependant on the BC or other sources for pen and 20% Cdr. She alwlays go full dmg and has her shield as protection. She is currently THE lfiesteal builder. She also spams her abilities so ofcourse DD>Bt (yes she does a lot of autos between her spells but the DD healign is just raw better). With full dmg build DD is also a good "Defense Item" before riven just explodes after one cc. And she can goe arly tiamat for aoe adn aa cancel and needs not to finish the ravenous as she can do that far later. And DD also provides early Cdr she needs too. So these Buildorders are no surprise: https://u.gg/lol/champions/riven/build/ https://champion.gg/champion/Riven/Top?league= https://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Riven So would a BF on DD hurt anyone? Beside riven, no. And even she would remain on many options with {{item:3133}} {{item:3044}} {{item:3077}} {{item:3067}} . And at least in one backcall she would buy one of these items as a whole instead of just the components. So even if BC gets never buffed back up, she could go once a Bf instead of a phage rush. Btw, as we look on 1st Item DD: The only Champion who bought DD first regulary over a longer time was in fact {{champion:119}} . Before he also had Options to rush BT as first item. And he no longer does rush Lifesteal msot times cause now {{item:3095}} exists and the Game is to fast paced to not rush for full dmg. Thats why is proposed that Change. With better Buildpaths adcs would be better able to pruchase lfiesteal early. A Draven could go Bf Sword every Game first (onyl if he goes lethalaty he would go for the {{item:3134}} ) and then decide to go either Bt, DD or Stormrazor. Other champions Bot could also do that. Or go the Botrk if they are more onhit focused. Like the only {{item:3057}} User Bot would be {{champion:81}} or if he ever returns Bot {{champion:42}} . And compared to Top {{item:3071}} Bot is defiently not a 1st Item and more of a 3rd/4th. Now to explain why Botlaners may be needed on Adcs currently in this meta. Lol has atm so much Dmg that Adcs regulary jsut explode. The games are also to fast adn Adcs to nerfed that they can't reach full Build. So saying BT synergizes better with Crit if Adcs sometiems can't even finish Ie is kinda irrelevant. Even if Bt gets build before ie, if there is only maybe the Stormrazor Crit and 15-30% Crit from Zeal/finished Zeal item that argument falls off. Also my idea and now Ritos idea is to make early defense options possible. If you rush either DD or Pd, there is totaly no crit to snyegize with it fromt he start. Only after a few Items. And {{item:3124}} users who not depend on crit also can use 80ad for just more dps and more lfiesteal beside Botrk for more survivabillity, especiialy if no Maw or Mercurial may be needed. "because it is far easier for them to maintain the shield because they are ranged." - With nerved Shields overall on Supports and the currennt huge amount of Divers and in Soloq also Assassins, holding the BT shield is now far harder. Like Xin, Fizz, Jax, Pyke, Renekton etc that sit on the face of the Adc. ER jax where there is no escape and you can get brusted down in one combo. DD actualy would made it possible to survive this, together with like pd dmg reduction and maybe tabbis or mercs. HUGE BTW, why Draven and other Champs like Mf dropepd DD, but also adcs may be in general now weaker is that DDonly heals on **Physical Dmg** and Lifesteal heals only on just the Physical Dmg Part of Autos, so Stuff like the Truedmg of Yis Wuju Style gets not affected by any healing beside maybe a {{item:3146}} . IE changes crit to be part **True Dmg** now so it sucks to heal in general. So to sum things up: > Pickaxe is the better option for fighters because they are more worried about getting components whenever they can and will often have to go to base more often and pickaxe gives them more build options. Yes, and Ga is far, faaaar more sued on Fighers as DD. I listed 4 possible DD Users, Ga can be used basicly on any Bruiser but also on Asssassins and Rangespamers like {{champion:126}} {{champion:80}} {{champion:41}} . > Besides, the pickaxe is a fine item for ADC to get because it builds into {{item:3031}} , {{item:3124}} , {{item:3139}} , and {{item:3036}} , all of which ADC build." Mercurial is a total situational Item. And the other 3 are also now antisynergetic to each other. As mentioned, Ie now deals True Damage and that gets not affected by Armorpenetration (ie may really have destroyed adcs). And RB/LW now change the same item passive so they also not work together. On the other hand my change would include BT to also have a Pickaxe and change Ga to also include that, which is an even more situational item as Mercurial if the Game Balance is ok. DD alsos till ahs Caulfields, which is also part of {{item:3156}} , {{item:3508}} , {{item:3147}} and {{item:3142}} , all possible Adc Items too as well as on assasssins and some fighters. AND: Bf Sword is included in {{item:3031}} too, {{item:3072}} too, {{item:3095}} , {{item:3508}} (currently sucks on Adcs but may get reworked again cause it breaks champions like Jax with his e and q,) and currently {{item:3026}} (which mostly just sucsk for adcs and is far, faaar more a fighter/assassin item. And Vayne/kais'a while beeing low range adcs kinda count as high range assassins based on their playstyle and abilities). It was kinda possible and would be far more possible to get 2-4 Bf Sworditems on Adcs while Assassisn adn Fighters would remain mostly on 0 if Ga and ER would realyl get changed/reworked.
P.S: New Spear of Shojin may also get a Bf Sword as buildpath. I think here we can agree that this is a Fighter item and it would suck to have to build Bf or build even more Bf together with Ga. And at this point, it would not even hurt to change DD as Spear may replace DD even far more on Fighters. Funny how they want to introduce Spear cause they see it not beeing rival to Steraks, don't see it rival ot to similar to DDs Bleed Reduction but do not want to bring Atmas cause they think, it is to similar to Titanic while heavy Fighters like Darius, Garen etc definetly not want a Titanic.
Zaghyr (NA)
: The difference between DD and GA in this case is when they are bought. DD is always going to be the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd completed item (not counting boots) for the champions that build it, and GA will usually by 4th or 5th unless you are very far ahead and decide to get it early, at which case you will most likely already have a surplus of gold during a few backs that could allow you to get B.F. Sword, but this is less common. Fighter items that {{item:1038}} builds into are {{item:3026}}, {{item:3072}} (which is less common than DD), and {{item:3508}} (which is bought by only a few fighters), while Pickaxe is used for {{item:3812}}, {{item:3124}}, {{item:3036}}, {{item:3139}}, {{item:3074}}, and {{item:3053}}. Pickaxe is the better option for fighters because they are more worried about getting components whenever they can and will often have to go to base more often and pickaxe gives them more build options. Bloodthirster is the more common option for ADC because it's healing and shield generation synergizes with Crit (which is also why you see Tryn, Yi, and Yasuo build it more often than DD) and because it is far easier for them to maintain the shield because they are ranged. DD is better for fighters because they wouldn't be able to generate that shield easily and they are more frontline focused so they would be taking the brunt of the damage compared to ADC, so the damage delay of DD is more valuable. It is better to keep DD build path the way it is instead of putting B.F. Sword into it because, again, it would mess with the build paths of the champions that most often go for it. Besides, the pickaxe is a fine item for ADC to get because it builds into {{item:3031}}, {{item:3124}}, {{item:3139}}, and {{item:3036}}, all of which ADC build. You said that BT and DD have the same AD and cost and give sustain, but then also said that DD is not worth it when Triforce, BC, Rav Hydra, and ER exist. That doesn't make any sense. Are you implying it would be more worth it to get Bloodthirster instead? Why would DD not be worth it when it is commonly build alongside these items anyway? PS: I'm assuming you were in a rush, but work on the grammar of your post, it was very difficult to read.
"Are you implying it would be more worth it to get Bloodthirster instead? " No, i said Lifesteal is nto worth at all. I listed the few Fighters that take Lifesteal in form of these items. Ravenous hydra is more sued but also cause it gives an aa reset, aoe damage and with that waveclear. But even Ravenous got mostly repalced yb Ttanic now. There are champs or players who sometiems still favor the lifesteala dn the bigger amount of ad instead of tankyness. But these players are still the minority. And on the other hand the biggest lifesteal fighter group. Like you have 10 Champions who maybe go Ravenous adn then you ahve together 10 Champions that go DD or Bt or maybe both. First if i count items, i will count in Boots cause Tabbis or mercurys are an important Rush item on Toplane. Second, DD is like never a 1st Item and nearly never a third (to hold it simple i count Boosts allways second). It is most times a 4th Item. In half cases you buy even the Ga before the DD. It is a far worse 1st item top cause the {{item:3077}} , {{item:3044}} , {{item:3057}} {{item:3052}} and {{item:3134}} items exist. They give a huge powerspike, Waveclear and/or 20%Cdr on the completed Item. Third Item can be the {{item:3053}} or maybe even a {{item:3026}} as Defense Options. Or you get a combination of a {{item:3044}} {{item:3077}} Set. {{champion:420}} : Good example of a 4th user in regular as we can see here: https://u.gg/lol/champions/illaoi/build/ https://champion.gg/champion/Illaoi/Top?league= on the other hand Pros in high Elo may not even get DD or as 5th itme jsut for faster paced games in this meta while low elo drags longer. So you can see sometiems there even the GA earlier or jsut compeltly replacing the DD. https://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Illaoi (i would scroll down cause Hjarnan spamed Illaoi Jungle. Interesting between that the redsttie can basicly repalce DD totaly while Ga is bought msot tiems as 4th). {{champion:266}} : At the moment Electrocute with Ghostblade Rush is really popular, delaying the BC. The data tells all what is needed: https://u.gg/lol/champions/aatrox/build/ https://champion.gg/champion/Aatrox/Top?league= https://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Aatrox Between loking at Aatrox outside of Top at Mid and jungle, DD is even less popular there as either more dmg or more Tanykness like {{item:3147}} / {{item:3742}} gets for exampel build. {{champion:114}} : A User where mostly even BT is more popular as DD if she goes for the double Ls, but items like new ER forced aslo onto her. https://u.gg/lol/champions/fiora/build/ https://champion.gg/champion/Fiora/Top?league= https://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Fiora So Fiora is obvioulsy more of a Splitpusher. Or so most Fighters Top are. So thats the counterpoint to your "DD is better for fighters because they wouldn't be able to generate that shield easily and they are more frontline focused so they would be taking the brunt of the damage compared to ADC, so the damage delay of DD is more valuable." Fighters can generate the Shield in 1v1s and also not cosntantly engage in 5v5s,e specially not in the front. A Fiora would flank good and tries to not get hit by all 5 enemies. In fact i can explain later why DD may be even needed in the current Meta on Adcs or can be a good defense option. But first, {{champion:92}} : Now i wondered myself why you even thought DD is a 1st or 2nd Item without counting Boots. And after my research on sources to prove my points on the Champs i also looked up your profil and kinda got not surprised: Your most played Champion is Riven. Funny yourslef not even rushed DD but lets look at the datawebsites and explanations.: Currently DD may be a 3rd or even 1st rush item possible on Riven. Now historically BC allaways dominated together with Ravenous Hydra for Lifesteal and Autoresets or the Penetrationbuild with Ghsotbalde Duskblade. So this can totaly be a raw meta thing. Also ER does not suit Rivena s mucha s she allready ahs super low CDs AND doesn't tneed the mana passive. BC got turned to suit better heavy fighters as Adcs. It also got it's pen nerved from 30% to 24% armor reduction, so is far worse and many fighters allready replaced BC with Trinity. Trintiy got also buffed with buffed base ad on everyone cause rune reforged and the removal of ad runes btw. Riven is by far not a heavy fighter and her Combosa re tof ast to proc good Sheen, so she is dependant on the BC or other sources for pen and 20% Cdr. She alwlays go full dmg and has her shield as protection. She is currently THE lfiesteal builder. She also spams her abilities so ofcourse DD>Bt (yes she does a lot of autos between her spells but the DD healign is just raw better). With full dmg build DD is also a good "Defense Item" before riven just explodes after one cc. And she can goe arly tiamat for aoe adn aa cancel and needs not to finish the ravenous as she can do that far later. And DD also provides early Cdr she needs too. So these Buildorders are no surprise: https://u.gg/lol/champions/riven/build/ https://champion.gg/champion/Riven/Top?league= https://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Riven So would a BF on DD hurt anyone? Beside riven, no. And even she would remain on many options with {{item:3133}} {{item:3044}} {{item:3077}} {{item:3067}} . And at least in one backcall she would buy one of these items as a whole instead of just the components. So even if BC gets never buffed back up, she could go once a Bf instead of a phage rush. Btw, as we look on 1st Item DD: The only Champion who bought DD first regulary over a longer time was in fact {{champion:119}} . Before he also had Options to rush BT as first item. And he no longer does rush Lifesteal msot times cause now {{item:3095}} exists and the Game is to fast paced to not rush for full dmg. Thats why is proposed that Change. With better Buildpaths adcs would be better able to pruchase lfiesteal early. A Draven could go Bf Sword every Game first (onyl if he goes lethalaty he would go for the {{item:3134}} ) and then decide to go either Bt, DD or Stormrazor. Other champions Bot could also do that. Or go the Botrk if they are more onhit focused. Like the only {{item:3057}} User Bot would be {{champion:81}} or if he ever returns Bot {{champion:42}} . And compared to Top {{item:3071}} Bot is defiently not a 1st Item and more of a 3rd/4th. Now to explain why Botlaners may be needed on Adcs currently in this meta. Lol has atm so much Dmg that Adcs regulary jsut explode. The games are also to fast adn Adcs to nerfed that they can't reach full Build. So saying BT synergizes better with Crit if Adcs sometiems can't even finish Ie is kinda irrelevant. Even if Bt gets build before ie, if there is only maybe the Stormrazor Crit and 15-30% Crit from Zeal/finished Zeal item that argument falls off. Also my idea and now Ritos idea is to make early defense options possible. If you rush either DD or Pd, there is totaly no crit to snyegize with it fromt he start. Only after a few Items. And {{item:3124}} users who not depend on crit also can use 80ad for just more dps and more lfiesteal beside Botrk for more survivabillity, especiialy if no Maw or Mercurial may be needed. "because it is far easier for them to maintain the shield because they are ranged." - With nerved Shields overall on Supports and the currennt huge amount of Divers and in Soloq also Assassins, holding the BT shield is now far harder. Like Xin, Fizz, Jax, Pyke, Renekton etc that sit on the face of the Adc. ER jax where there is no escape and you can get brusted down in one combo. DD actualy would made it possible to survive this, together with like pd dmg reduction and maybe tabbis or mercs. HUGE BTW, why Draven and other Champs like Mf dropepd DD, but also adcs may be in general now weaker is that DDonly heals on **Physical Dmg** and Lifesteal heals only on just the Physical Dmg Part of Autos, so Stuff like the Truedmg of Yis Wuju Style gets not affected by any healing beside maybe a {{item:3146}} . IE changes crit to be part **True Dmg** now so it sucks to heal in general. So to sum things up: > Pickaxe is the better option for fighters because they are more worried about getting components whenever they can and will often have to go to base more often and pickaxe gives them more build options. Yes, and Ga is far, faaaar more sued on Fighers as DD. I listed 4 possible DD Users, Ga can be used basicly on any Bruiser but also on Asssassins and Rangespamers like {{champion:126}} {{champion:80}} {{champion:41}} . > Besides, the pickaxe is a fine item for ADC to get because it builds into {{item:3031}} , {{item:3124}} , {{item:3139}} , and {{item:3036}} , all of which ADC build." Mercurial is a total situational Item. And the other 3 are also now antisynergetic to each other. As mentioned, Ie now deals True Damage and that gets not affected by Armorpenetration (ie may really have destroyed adcs). And RB/LW now change the same item passive so they also not work together. On the other hand my change would include BT to also have a Pickaxe and change Ga to also include that, which is an even more situational item as Mercurial if the Game Balance is ok. DD alsos till ahs Caulfields, which is also part of {{item:3156}} , {{item:3508}} , {{item:3147}} and {{item:3142}} , all possible Adc Items too as well as on assasssins and some fighters. AND: Bf Sword is included in {{item:3031}} too, {{item:3072}} too, {{item:3095}} , {{item:3508}} (currently sucks on Adcs but may get reworked again cause it breaks champions like Jax with his e and q,) and currently {{item:3026}} (which mostly just sucsk for adcs and is far, faaar more a fighter/assassin item. And Vayne/kais'a while beeing low range adcs kinda count as high range assassins based on their playstyle and abilities). It was kinda possible and would be far more possible to get 2-4 Bf Sworditems on Adcs while Assassisn adn Fighters would remain mostly on 0 if Ga and ER would realyl get changed/reworked.
Zaghyr (NA)
: I don't think changing DD so it suits ADC is a good idea since mostly Fighters build it and making them have to wait for a B.F. Sword would be awful.
Again which fighters beside Illaoi, Aatrox, Riven adn maybe Fiora (likes BT more and this allready has BF) build DD? And these Champs also build Ga. So they actualy HAVE to ait allready for BF. Maybe Graves and Urgot buy sometimes a DD too. But they also like Ga. Actually GA is the far more popular Fighter and Assasin Item as DD. So yes, they have to wait for a BF. And it actualy stinks as you want maybe Damage but can't afford it. And then you have to settle for the stopwatch or cloth armor (at elast the alst update made it possible to upgrade to Chain Vest). Also if you actualy get the BF before the other Components you jsut sit the whole time on the same Ad,a s upgrettign to Ga adds not more Ad to you. You jsut get the Ga Passive with a 300s CD. While on DD or BT you would have options to either purchase 40 Ad for 1300 Gold or go other components like Longswords that give you 10 Ad. You can upgrade to Vampire. Or go for 25 Ad Pickaxe on BT or 25 Ad 10%CDR on DD. This would be similar to old IE/ER where the Vampire just replaces the Claok of Agility. And yes, you would not gain Ad on upgrading these items as the Components alone give 80 Ad. But you still get the amazing DD or BT passives that defiently don't have a 300s cd and their only weakness is Grivious Woudns. Lifesteal in general si far more favored by Long Range Ads who can kite and proc it. Even with Grivious Wounds Champs who can kite cang et less punished by constant Dmg and by thsi can better lfiesteal. On the other hand Ga only giving 40 Ad and not much Defense Stats or protection with that long passive cd sucks on msot Adcs that are not Vayne or Kai'sa. Adcs prefer Ad, As and Crit, Lifesteal is a secodnary good Option. But 40Ad without As or Crit sucks. 80 Ad on the other hand is pretty nice. Not only do BT and DD both grant the same amount of Ad, they also have the same price and both also give some form of lifesteal. And cause Fighters allready have the msot expensive Items, DD is jsut another expensive item that is jsut not worth on most of them, if items liek Trinity, Bc, Hydra or Essense Reaver exist.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 30
1. Making items like Hextrinker and Bt better early Game Chocises is a good idea. Obviusly a meta where everyone rushes Bt as first item like how was it done in the past is not healthy. But it should be able to be an alternative option to the classic crit full dmg rush. Alone Itembuildpath changes could do a good work. {{item:3072}} : Change it to make it similar like old {{item:3031}} . Replace the one longsword with a pickaxe to not sit that long on unspend gold. {{item:3812}} : Similar change, replace the pickaxe with a B.F. Sword. Allows Adcs to chosoe after first back BF to choose between going for a Stormrazor, Bt or DD. {{item:3026}} : Opposite change, replace the B.F. Sword with a Pickaxe. Ga is not a good rush Item but could be a decent 2-4 item. The BF is just not suited for such a low price low stat Item. Obvioulsy DD and Ga also fall under use of Bruisers and Assassins. DD may currently not be a good choice for adcs. But the proposed changes would be good for Botlane Balance and not hurt much Toplane for example. Best DD user would be Illaoi. But she may also get a Ga and if she takes the Bf Sword earlier for her DD and later a pickaxe for the Ga or otherwise makes not much diffrence to her expenses and changes little the powercurve that could be balanced on the champ itself back if needed. Most Bruisers alone that want a cheap Ga feel strange to go for a BF that as a non build item normaly is just a raw Adc Item. Phage, Sheen, Stinger, Dirk, Caulfield, Hextrinker - all are Items with components but BF needs to be purchased as a whole and is never a rushitem on Toplane but historically jsut the most used item beside Zeal for Botlane. 2. Can we get somewhere at Season 9 finaly a Critrework? With that i eman a crit repalcemet. Riot talked at the discussion of RNG that Crit RNG is bad RNG and should be replaced at some point. You did not wanted to make this move when Crit was to strong and instead just made to it to weak. Now you jsut want to buff it up again adn again? Like pls, get rid of Lucky Numbers deciding 1v1s and Teamfights. Get rid of Tryndameres passive which you can't play vs cause it is a RNG passive far worse balanced as Zoe. Replace all this wacky Crit synergies like Ashe Slow, Yasuo Dmg, Cait Headhshots, Xayah e Dmg with just a better Stat. Even if 9.2 may be to short for that, you Riot taked your time for the 8.11 changes too and it did not do much good. Non Adcs where shortly avialable, then adcs replaced them again while adcs remained weaker. All that time for the 8.11 changes, to plan them before and to fix them after, jsut feel liek so much wasted time. And i cans ay that as a palyer who palyed a long time adc, it is jsut not healthy. GET FINALLY RID OF CRIT.
: You just come to the wrong forums. Reddit is full of subs that are mostly positive or all positive.
yea. i see all these Dom and hash and t1 threads. also even on pbe changes or patchnotes you really don't see "great job guys" most of the time.
: What if I don't want my opponent to see my 2 million mastery and invade every fuck I had out of fear? What if I don't want my teammates to see my mastery as freely since the moment I make an error they'll flame the fuck out of me for being shit with so many points? That is a really really poor decision... not only will it concern a lot of players when they see you have no experience on a champ or when you see they have too much experience for their rank, but it also tells the opponent who the shut down and make the game harder for. Idc if somebody looks the game up and finds out, but having it readily available just so players can shit talk by the end of the game just sounds awful.
> What if I don't want my teammates to see my mastery as freely Ahem, the 2 million mastery was allways kinda there cause from mastery 4 upwards you allready can see the symbol in the loading screen. Sure, you don't know the exact masterynumber but palyers allready paly with diffrent assumptions when they see that lvv 4/5/6/7 mastery token. Also probably even ingame on most champions you can tell if a player has many games on this champion or not. Aslo does not stop you from dominating most of the games. Even with heavy jungle pressure, with so much experience you should be able to handle it plus other lanes can act easier with less pressure plus you would be able to carry still int he lategame with your makro experience.
OkoiA (NA)
: You’ve changed opinions 6 times about the issue with an AS shard. The only things that get through to you are the things I say 12 times in a row. “so why is a second as needed? Like you said adcs wouldw ant to get as and ad.” “And for 99% of all Champions doulbe attackspeed is useless.“ “give a second as shard. problem: this gives far more clear as you may want to give and want to balance AND it also increases lane domiannce, lategame and 1v1s waht you may not wanted to buff.” “The only ones you would want maybe full as would be ad onhit yi, teemo and kennen (which would be jsut teemo 2.0). Every other champion is jsut better with a mixture of ad and as. This is not even something personal. It is pure math...” “Attackspeed affects A LOT. Lasthitting adn how smooth you can do that. 1v1s as early even one more auto can decide. ANd the jungle clear. ” ___ “then so be it.” Your response to misunderstanding a central idea of design!! And then you continue to try to to defend it!!! “fantasizing numbers” SEE? What did I say? You don’t understand the numbers!! Don’t cite play rates if you don’t know what they mean. “THERE do you ahve your options.” We’re talking about attack speed! Take away double AP shards and tell mages they can take CDR now. There are your options!! LOL “And if you want to remain a Chidl without seeign the consequences” I have a whole thread about the history of linked stats, the causes for siphoning Resolve and Precision, it’s effects, and the effects of decoupling. I can almost guarantee you forgot that Precision didn’t used to siphon stats. And the success of Precision keystones is what made AS marksmen strong. After siphon was added, pure AS marksmen (Kalista, Vayne, Twitch) fell to Crit. Like you wouldn’t even think to think of that cause you’re completely lost in this conversation. And I bet you still don’t understand its relevance. So yes, I do understand the consequences, thoroughly. And it’s frustrating to have to explain over and over the same thing to an argumentative halfwit. "I WANNA, I WANNA, BUT I WANNA AHVE MORE AS AND MORE VARIETY" Where to even begin? You’ve suggested the following: double AS is unnecessary because few champs currently take it, double AS is too strong for junglers, double AS is too strong for marksmen (hence cap), double AS adds too much complexity, and you’ve misunderstood practically everything I’ve said. I’ve had to clarify every single point multiple times. That’s why you feel like I’m talking like a child. It’s because I’m talking to you, and you have the mental capacity of a child. ___ And stop using the word argument. It makes you sound like an angry YouTube atheist from 2011. It’s self-evident we’re disagreeing. ___ So, please correct me if I’m wrong because this is so difficult to extract from your responses. Your main point now is that double AS shards is too strong on junglers and marksmen? OK the answer to that is: it’s not, as evidenced by the state of these roles from 8.3 to 8.4 when 18% AS got restricted. Your other point is that it adds unnecessary complexity? The answer is that the complexity cost is minuscule compared to other rune choices. Restricting options for the sake of simplicity here is completely ineffectual in comparison. We essentially had the option to min/max AS through the entire history of the game until 8.4. It’s currently restricted and soon to ben taken away for absolutely no reason. Seriously, give me a legitimate reason, I’m all ears. Why should double AS have the same fate as Time Spent Dead runes?
"So, please correct me if I’m wrong" Will do. "Your main point now is that double AS shards is too strong on junglers and marksmen?" Nope, thats not my point. > You’ve changed opinions 6 times about the issue with an AS shard. The only things that get through to you are the things I say 12 times in a row. “so why is a second as needed? Like you said adcs wouldw ant to get as and ad.” “And for 99% of all Champions doulbe attackspeed is useless.“ “give a second as shard. problem: this gives far more clear as you may want to give and want to balance AND it also increases lane domiannce, lategame and 1v1s waht you may not wanted to buff.” “The only ones you would want maybe full as would be ad onhit yi, teemo and kennen (which would be jsut teemo 2.0). Every other champion is jsut better with a mixture of ad and as. This is not even something personal. It is pure math...” “Attackspeed affects A LOT. Lasthitting adn how smooth you can do that. 1v1s as early even one more auto can decide. ANd the jungle clear. So the problem here is that i did not changed opinions 6 times. I just showed diffrent sides of a multisided coin or cube. I for example told many times that runes and ingame items affect each other on choices and strenghts. Like do you remember old rageblade and how Champions like Tristana picked it? For items like these you would have spent more as on old runes (marks and quints) and would spend 2 as shards and alacrity on the new system. As you maybe noticed rageblade got changed for a reason cause it was not healthy. When i said it increases lane domiance, 1v1 and lategame i not meant in general for veryone. I meant it for times onhit is overwhelming and popular like on old rageblade or on general as champions like yi, kennen and teemo. Master Yi is allready enough often a low elo problem. Ad Kennen is like unbalancable high elo when rekkles on bot and toplaner domiante the game with it (especially toplane destroying melees). Ad Teemo while not maybe competive viabel still also as dumb when strong in high elo. So depending on meta these 1-15% of Champions still can hurt. Also calling Vayne and Twith pure as champions is a joke. You can try to do that on Kalista or Kog'maw but Twitch is a critadc since ages and Vayne was it most of the time over the alst few years too as the crit tumble with stattiks was just such a strong burst. And sry to say, it is hard to stop using the word argument if you still put no real ones here. "I’ve had to clarify every single point multiple times. I did not see any point clarified. You see me arguing comes to the point that i have to quote myself if i would not have expressed good enough or got misinterpreted. The most things i get from you is whataboutism as "if we don't need a second as shard, why do we need ap shards or why do we need even runes or why do we even need items and stats". On this behave i tried to explain why as si diffrent. I can also give you another opinion if you want. Scarras opinion is that we indeed need no runes and he believes the game is better adne asier to balance without it. Not what i really share as i also say with these arguments we could delete items. I think runes reforged has potential. But this potential should neither be in powercreeping as or cdr as more or less champions just get to much power on it depending on the meta witht he items available and how the game paces.
CrossXer (EUNE)
: And Nasus and Veigar stacks of course (unless I'm just retrded and missed the fact you can ping those).
Don't forget Cho-Gath, Sion, Kindred, Rengar, Thresh and Bard ;)
OkoiA (NA)
: variability ≠ overvariability variability ≠ overvariability variability ≠ overvariability variability ≠ overvariability variability ≠ overvariability variability ≠ overvariability variability ≠ overvariability variability ≠ overvariability variability ≠ overvariability It's not IMPLIED. I'm explicitly stating the OPPOSITE. Why don't we all just play a single god damn champion with 0 runes and 0 items?? Why don't you just uninstall? You literally can't distinguish what I'm criticizing from what I'm advocating. 4/141= 3% of champions take full AS, and considering you literally have 2/20 ways to get it (as opposed to 12/20 full damage) 3% (which would go up if decoupled) is strong enough to merit keeping, considering there are 0/141 champions that primarily take Hail of Blades. "And for 99% of all Champions doulbe attackspeed is useless." No. no. no. no. This lays out perfectly how little you understand. 3% of champs take double AS now because AS is linked to runes, the real number is higher. 3.3% of champions buy Protoblet, should we remove Protobelt? 2.8% of champions buy Void Staff, should we remove Void Staff? 2.7% of champions buy Spirit Visage, should we remove Spirit Visage? Like this is all going over your head, stop embarrassing yourself.
> 3.3% of champions buy Protoblet, should we remove Protobelt? 2.8% of champions buy Void Staff, should we remove Void Staff? 2.7% of champions buy Spirit Visage, should we remove Spirit Visage? Like this is all going over your head, stop embarrassing yourself. Why don't we all just play a single god damn champion with 0 runes and 0 items?? Why don't you just uninstall? You literally can't distinguish what I'm criticizing from what I'm advocating. Who embarasses himself here now? fantasizing numbers, comparing itembalance of existing items with runes that not even exist and given that you can balance these champions diffrently. It probably needs a deeper exploration what as all affects TRUTH is: NONE of the champions need double as to be playable as they can't be played without it. They can be played. You ask why? Cause you can balance as on so many other levels. Lets compare stats we get from the shards or stats in general Most stats value around duelling strenght, last hit strenght and jungle clear strenght.. You can't give champions ap, cdr, armorpen or magicpen as every champions starts with 0 baseap and penetration. Hp, armor, mr, hpreg on both, Runes and Champions be it flat/base or scaling effects how you survive laning phase or how healthy you can clear, especially first clear. Basead is for last hitting, early duells (even on mages autos early deal a ton of the lanedmg by good players) and jungleclear, especially if you have ad scalings on your abilities. Attackspeed affects A LOT. Lasthitting adn how smooth you can do that. 1v1s as early even one more auto can decide. ANd the jungle clear. One of the main arguments for a second as shard is that. But how exactly does it affect? well ofcourse you get more autos out or get them faster out for a faster and healthier clear. With a healthier clear you may need less resistances in the jungle or with more autos you may need less ad. Only gets back in 1v1s maybe but even there more as could comprimise all of that as logna s you get not cc to death. Where is the payback on someone with tenacity and qss? or a yi who dodges cc with his q? But it ends not just on your own dmg only. As also increases both, tooth and especialyl nail, the passives of hunter talisman and hunter machete. With more as you do more onhitdmg on monsters and more dmg over time. So after all this, if we just want to icnrease jungle clear: Option A: give a second as shard. problem: this gives far more clear as you may want to give and want to balance AND it also increases lane domiannce, lategame and 1v1s waht you may not wanted to buff. Option B: Buff base as but would end the same. Diffrence is you do this for one champion and not add chaos on the potential balance to every other cahmpion and item and future items/champions you want to bring into the Game. Adding a new As item/changing an item like rageblade gets changed/adding new Autoattack focused Champions would all ahve to keep a mind if there are 1 or 2 as shards available to balance that. Maybe it could get op to take double as on every adc together with rageblade which could not be done with only one as shard for exampel. Option C: Buff spells, extra targeted on only bonus dmg to monsters to not just increase also 1v1s or lane strenght. Propblem here could be that it elads to diffrent max orders that may not be wanted. Or that champions sue their mana diffrently. And it lowers the skillfloor like if Yi jsut gets more mosnterdmg with q he just stays healthier while clearign with an untargetable spell. OR Option D: Buff champions boni attackspeded at lv1. That was done on many champions allready like on Yi or Wukong. Shyvanna still misses it for exampel if you would like want to buff her clearing. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_champions/Attack_speed You see, Option D may hodl the least negative parts while Option A is the one with the most. " Why don't we all just play a single god damn champion with 0 runes and 0 items?" You may asked Cause indeed early stat choices play a role, but stats are nto equally important or complicated to balance. First cause how i allready told you, some stats champions just don#t start with like ap. And soem stats cause they have a cap and aslo should not be brought around as much. You get as much from one stat as you want for most of the stats. But you can't get 50CDR for a reason. You can't get normaly over 2.5as for a reason. Ms has 2 soft caps for a reason. And for these god dammr easons you find 0 ms shards adn only 1 as adn 1 cdr shard in the new system. Cause giving to much of these out just gives problems. Like maybe you forgot it: But ms, cdr, as, even health -> many normal runes allready give you these. THERE do you ahve your options. And if you want to remain a Chidl without seeign the consequences aka "I WANNA, I WANNA, BUT I WANNA AHVE MORE AS AND MORE VARIETY" and bullshit like this: > variability ≠ overvariability variability ≠ overvariability variability ≠ overvariability variability ≠ overvariability variability ≠ overvariability variability ≠ overvariability variability ≠ overvariability variability ≠ overvariability variability ≠ overvariability then so be it. Jsut shows how you not think thigns certainly threw and that i am lucky i am mostly not affected by your choices and "arguments" ingame and in live as luckily you are not on the live design team and luckily the life design team is a group of people deciding things like that. Not just one person as more people ca see threw more things and see it threw diffrent angles
Gixia (NA)
: There are some junglers who really would prefer to just double down on attack speed, especially early in the game before Alacrity has built up. Shyvana, for example, has had a noticeably shittier clear ever since they made it so you don't get the full AS benefit from going Precision anymore, and it'd be nice to have the option to get that back. Especially since the attack speed stat shard is less than even the current attack speed you get from going precision.
There are many ways to buff shyvannas clear if it is jsut this. Give her more seplldmg like on w for exampel. You could also add thiis boni jsut to extra mosnterdmg without icnreasign her ability to duell which as buffs would do. Still you could buth her base as OR her lv1 bonus attackspeed as they had done to many other champions recently, most times jsut for buffing the jungle clear like on Wukong: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_champions/Attack_speed
OkoiA (NA)
: "Saying more diversity is allways better is just naiv" I have never said that. That's not even remotely close to anything I've said. Ever. But I get that it's hard to understand, so I'll explain more to you. ___ There are thousands of possible rune pages. You have a choice of 17 Keystone Runes, and a pool of 45 Secondary Runes to choose from thereafter. Here's the decision making process for the new stats that you're worried about "complicating": Are you a Support? = take CDR Are you a Carry? = take damage Are you a Tank or carry with a weak early game? = take double Def Are you a Resist or HP weighted tank? = take opposite stat Honestly what the fuck even is this system? The hardest choice here is knowing vulnerable carry matchups. They're already almost useless choices, there's next to no variability to be seen. The ability to make any rune choices at all guarantees that you have the simplest understanding of your champion's class. And given the 1000's of options to choose from already, if you think a single decision to take AS or AD will cause any confusion at low elo in comparison to the decision process behind the existing Runes, you lack all perspective necessary for this conversation.
"I have never said that. That's not even remotely close to anything I've said. Ever. But I get that it's hard to understand, so I'll explain more to you." Its what you were implying with all your argumetns as you still can't argue why this second as row is needed. "You have a choice of 17 Keystone Runes, and a pool of 45 Secondary Runes to choose from thereafter. Here's the decision making process for the new stats that you're worried about "complicating": And given the 1000's of options to choose from already" So WHY does it even need more variety? Are you a Support? = take CDR Are you a Carry? = take damage Are you a Tank or carry with a weak early game? = take double Def Are you a Resist or HP weighted tank? = take opposite stat The hardest choice here is knowing vulnerable carry matchups. They're already almost useless choices, there's next to no variability to be seen. Ok, so WHY does it need more as if you allready choose based on these parameters? As you pointed out, people who know what vulnerable carry matchups are change their ruens based ond efesne, not ona second as shard int he middle row. People easy thinking about what champions they play, carry or support or tank, do allready their thinking with no variety. "if you think a single decision to take AS or AD will cause any confusion at low elo in comparison to the decision process behind the existing Runes, you lack all perspective necessary for this conversation." You basicly told that yourself. As there is no scenario you would take the variety of double as or as and cdr. You hold it simple with 4 examples but these are the most basic ones. And for 99% of all Champions doulbe attackspeed is useless. So yes, you basicly explained yourself that only lowelo would maybe get confused if they need to take doulbe as or not. You Sir, gave that perspective yourself necesary ffor this conversation. Thanks for helping me proving you wrong with your own arguments.
: I really don't like the new Fiora anim. I'm don't want to be harsh, so I'll just say I really really really don't like it. She looks like a little kid that doesn't know how to run. It looks like the wind would blow her over. Her original/current anim looks much more deliberate, what I'd expect from a duelist. Edit: I was speaking to the run animation. Why are her legs so straight? Bend those knees! The new walk animation looks good.
should this uphold position not just show her as a true duellist who does not bend down and allways holds an optimal offense7defense position?
Yara0 (NA)
: Give control mages more CD on their ults. Or give shit like Rengar and kahzix more times to ult. Riot logic.
the actual logic is that Controlmages are stacked with amazing runes in Sorcery but lack options for secondary path. And especially domination was really bad. Before was Ultimate Hat heavilly contested with Manaflowband and Nullifying Orb but now a Mage can go Sorcery and Manaflowband and then secondary Domiantion Ultimate Hunter for example. Yea at that part the runeboni played also a role that Domiantion Secondary should be more attractive cause that also gave Ad/Ap which will no longer matter in the future. But as some peopel allready said the rune just makes mroe Sense int he Domiantiontree asn it allready worked similar to the Hunter Line.
: I'd say splashing Inspiration would be the best of the 5, since pretty much every champ can use the free boots +5% CDR
also pretty any champion can use both, scorch and gathering storm, together with transcenende. Champions that can't use manaflowband or Nimbus Cloak are also very rare and Nullifying Orb can also be pretty much used in any game as full ad teams, especialyl with 0 amgic dmg,a re not that likely (in the end even statikks/rapid proc dmg can be reduced by that). And champions amy want boots faster as 10min and if they get not akedowns they get them not faster. Like if they need mobis/swiftys for roaming or tabbis/mercurys as defense.
OkoiA (NA)
: Everything you just said applies to getting rid of rune diversity, item diversity, champion diversity, etc, There are always better options than others. If you took your basic understanding of effective health and applied it to overall champion/stat efficiency, you might be able to see why some champions prefer certain stats. I honestly don’t think you know enough to be having this discussion.
yea OFCOURSE some champions prefer certains tats. I gave you a fckn example of the 2 and a half champions that may prefer more attackspeed in their runes. And it is clear that their are also champions that scale more with health or more with armor/mr like Zac, Malphite and Galio. And some Champions get a lot of health or armor/mr from their spells, so they just optimize around the other stats in items like Sion and Poppy. We allready got rid of Rune Diversity with removing the goldincome, -%deathtime, +%exp, spellvamp, energy and energyregen runes and all scaling runes and etc. Saying more diversity is allways better is just naiv if a: it is to strong or b: to weak. All this applies skill diffrences with people using to strong stuff to increase their elo far more as they are on a normal level or if they decrease it with to weak stuff without actualy knowing it. This just increases the difficulty of balancing as riot focourse wants to balance aroudn optimal paly, so they balance around plat or lcs. But they can't jsut ignore low elo. So the idea is to make the game a little bit easier (boards allways tell "dumber) so lowelo don't fallls into to many traps so riot can balance easier around high elo without hurting as much lowelo. There will allways needs to be made a compromise between increasing diversity and compelxity and makign elague not to complicated and that belongs to riot to decide whenever what direction is the right one.
TomiMan7 (EUNE)
: First of all, you assume they get full build whitch is not true. Second of all, the, dont build lich, zhonyas, archangels, nor banshees or iceborn. Third of all, they get transcenden to get the cdr and if they overcap they dont lose the value of cdr. Fourth of all, you assume one type of support can build both tank support and enchanter support items witch is not true.
**1. It should NOT be the goal to give everyone 40%cdr. 2. It should NOT be the goal to give everyone 40%cdr. 3. It should NOT be the goal to give everyone 40%cdr. 4. It should NOT be the goal to give everyone 40%cdr.** > First of all, you assume they get full build whitch is not true. No i didn't. I mentioned that they not get often lv18 and ofcourse they are the people who get rarest full build. > Fourth of all, you assume one type of support can build both tank support and enchanter support items witch is not true. I never did this but that you read this out here just means you don't understand anything. Also just to say that in btw: thats half right as you asloc an see sometimes ap supports with knights vow or other tank items and tank supports with redemption. Typical {{champion:201}} /{{champion:223}} /tank supports in general Build: {{item:3401}} {{item:3109}} ({{item:3190}} ){{item:3050}} {{item:3107}} . First Items on every Entchanter: {{item:3098}} /{{item:3096}} > {{item:3117}} (or alternative boots like ionian) > {{item:3504}} > {{item:3107}} . Ofcourse {{item:3114}} is the item you rush first on these items in the buildpath. At this point you allready have 30% cdr, 40% with transencendence, 50% with ionian boots. And these items you finish most of the time. Now add Cosmic insight for additional 5% and the new lv18 10%cdr shard which would be worth 5% at lv9 - wow, thats a lot of cdr. Then on any order: {{item:3092}} /{{item:3069}} , {{item:3190}} (don't add any cdr to the build), {{item:3174}} , {{item:3222}} , {{item:3905}} , {{item:2065}} . That is even more cdr. > Second of all, the, dont build lich, zhonyas, archangels, nor banshees or iceborn. Either you can't read the mentioned champions cause onece iw rote them and not included their lol pictures or you are ignorant. You can look stuff up on for lowelo/highelo/challenger pros/ Lcs&Co https://www.probuilds.net/ https://champion.gg/ https://u.gg/ http://gol.gg/esports/home/ {{champion:25}} goes Stopwatch as a rune and builds that often out to a Zhonyas. You can see this even in high elo and lcs. Also goes sometimes banshees. {{champion:26}} , {{champion:37}} (now just in high elo), {{champion:44}} (used to, now not quite anymore) build {{item:3003}} or at least {{item:3070}} . Yes tear gives no cdr but the zilean would definetly build the archangle out and in long games the fulls tacked tear would definetly not just get sold. In Low elo people play definetly ap sona with lichbane. And there are {{champion:432}} , {{champion:44}} , {{champion:53}} players that build iceborn. Also other unusal items: {{champion:16}} lieks to go either {{item:3065}} or {{item:3083}} for healthreg which she can use cause her w costs health.
OkoiA (NA)
: I said MOST marksmen. That’s the point of having options... if you want dedicated class runes just give them as base stats and get rid of the system. And there are tons of other top and jg champions that may want full AS or at the very least have the option. Jax, Tryn, Kayle, Kalista, Twitch, Jinx, Ashe, Yi, Azir, Xin, Udyr, Nocturne, Shyvana, Teemo, Warwick... There is literally zero downside like I don’t understand what’s unclear.
0 downside? the downside is making the system unnecesary over complicated and include trap choices. You say options, i say bad options. Old runes allready had such a big amount of diffrent ruens and like only 20% of the runes were good. The only ones you would want maybe full as would be ad onhit yi, teemo and kennen (which would be jsut teemo 2.0). Every other champion is jsut better with a mixture of ad and as. This is not even something personal. It is pure math as how you want to optimize your items also around health and resistances for the _Effective health_ http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Health. Same you wanna mix ad with as and maybe crit. Sure onhit builds focus around as mostly but they also get their dmg from the onhitdmg and their own effects. So every other user can use the ad pretty good, kayle the ap. And only if you would go full ad onhit kennen/teemo with maybe rageblade or wits end, no nashors, just botrk runans frozen mallet trinity or bc, then you would want to max out as. Cause a hybrid teemo build who also uses nashors and liandrys ap for the e, q and r dmg would aslo benefit from ap. And for yi it comes around that more as means he gets faster his passive which is just an additional free autoattack which together with the e equals out the lack of ad. So making a 4th as slot for 2 and a healf champions, where it is meta on yi at the moment to go onhit and not crit, totaly not meta to go atm an ad tank onhit style on teemo and depending how riot balances kennen he is either ad or ap would be hilalrious. Especially if it means that players get the idea that this slot must be effective for much more options as "why should riot have implemented if it would not be optimal on a bunch of cases". So dozens of players would go these ineffctive builds and just icnrease the skillgap which makes balancing champions between higha dn low elo far harder as it would lower far more the winrates on these champions in low elo. Or people would really get to the idea they could run champions with cdr and as which would fit like no champion i can currently imagine.
TomiMan7 (EUNE)
: you need to get lvl10 to get transcendence, thats mid game esentially. Usually supports take that rune, and for them its much harder to achive lvl10. 10% cdr at lvl18 is just dumb to be honest. Its way to little way too late.
supports. yeea, supports realyl miss cdr... {{item:3114}} {{item:3301}} 5% each, {{item:3096}} {{item:3098}} {{item:3401}} plus upgrades 10% , {{item:3174}} {{item:3222}} {{item:3107}} {{item:3504}} {{item:3905}} {{item:2065}} {{item:3100}} {{item:3157}} {{item:3102}} {{item:3003}} (sona/morgana/zilean support), {{item:3158}} for early cdr and summoner spell cdr, {{item:3109}} {{item:3050}} {{item:3800}} {{item:3110}} {{item:3025}} As Ap Support i really have to look to not overcap. it gets really ahrd getting items without cdr. Like {{item:3136}} {{item:3916}} . A tank Support misses on what, {{item:3190}} ? Now add transcendence and you get like never under 40%cdr. for this you need to build such strange items like {{item:3742}} {{item:3068}} . And transcendence would take overcapped cdr and change it into ad or ap. To say supports reach barly fullbuild or lv 18 is just dumb. Like again: It should NOT be the goal to give everyone 40%cdr. even fi supports get that allready most iof the time and not jsut in super late.
LankPants (OCE)
: You think Sejuani didn't have higher damage pre rework than now? Just look at her old W. >Sejuani's next AA deals 6% of her enemies max HP as magic damage in an AoE. After this Sejuani deals 40+3% of her max HP/S as magic damage for 4 seconds in an AoE around her. Total damage, 160+6% enemy HP+12% Sejuani's HP. Nothing on Sej's new kit can output that kind of damage to a single target, let alone in an AoE. Sej's damage seems higher to play against, because it's all burst damage now, something the changes on the PBE made even worse. In actuality her damage was much higher pre rework, just spread out over time and over multiple targets. The Sej and Zac reworks both changed the champs in very similar ways, they sacrificed damage over time for more immediate burst damage and more CC.
What? first the easier one: how did azc losoe dmg over tiem for more burst? people literaly called the zac reworka s the death of ap zac who was played around burst. And ritos goal was to icnrease zacs burst, you can read it up. second, burstdmg is far better for the 1v1. like new akali would just e away from old sejuani and wait till w is off. new sejuani procs the stun and applyys all of the dmg. PLUS seju can ult to apply the burst again. Things new sejuani could do directloy after the rework before she got nerfed: oneshotting scuttlers one arly level, even more important with the scuttle changes. She could also 1v1 far better junglers like a rengar. And on minions the clear also got better with the burst as you take less dmg if gromp dies 3s sooner. Means also faster clearspeed. There it does not matter if the dmg over time is in the end the same.
: I thought they were getting rid of transcendence.
nope, doesn't look like it. there is also no new sorcery rune as you want a minimum of 3 runes per row.
TomiMan7 (EUNE)
: Yes but the first half of the game, 2 of your runes are basically worthless. Thats the trade off there.
that tradeoff is far to small as how much power that is. You get the same tradeoff with 10% at level 18. the game needs not more power creeped, especiialy with free cdr. giving 20%cdr out is allready maybe to much seeing as how many items cdr give. the goal is not to give every champion 40% cdr or we could easy get rid of this stat from the begin.
nGio (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gwqUAk7N,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-09T13:23:03.848+0000) > > # R E V E R T > # E > # V > # E > # R > # T {{champion:154}} - Can I come too?
It is funny as how Sejuani and Zac got shifted in opposite ways and people want a revert seem also ahve diffrent dieas of balance as riot: Zac before Rework: Bunch of Damage Zac now: Bunch of CC, less Damage, harder to balance Sejuani pre and kinda post rework: Bunch of CC, CC got shifted from places and post rework got harder to balance What riot wants to do now similar as they want to do to Ornn and makes people sceptical: Decrease the CC, increase Dmg {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}} {{sticker:zombie-nunu-bummed}} {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-popcorn}}
Gixia (NA)
: More than the others, I'd like to see a fourth stat in the middle shard (the one that can be either offensive or defensive). Partially just because my OCD wants to be able to choose between either 2 offensive options or 2 defensive options instead of 1 and 2, and partly because as a jungle main I'd really like for the option to take more attack speed.
i mean, there is still legend alacrity in precision that you can run secondary or priamry if you really want so much more as. But for the standard jungler the one as rune should be enough and also you can add ad for a good mixture.
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Häxel

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