: Well, I can just link them [here](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/25EhJGvb-tales-of-targon-pantheon) and [Here](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/60x77hLN-tales-of-targon) Also, I need some harsh critisim, it's the only way to improve.
Just FYI, will probably take until the weekend before I can respond, busy week.
: >First I want to clarify that while I understand that change is needed in order to bring lore up to an acceptable place, I don't think ALL the changes are right, just as you mentioned Garen and Taric, that connection feels completely tacked on and it's the exact same thing that happened with Pantheon and Leona back then, it is NOT alright and I do not support that choice, that said, if you take a look at Taric's old... self? on his page, you'll realize that at some point they made him Demacian, just so he wouldn't be an Alien anymore and in his current story, his friendship with Garen serves to highlight the fact that he was indeed Demacian at some point, I think it could have been done on a better fashion but well I'm not part of narrative. Yeah, he was shoved into Demacia before the rework (really they just sort of said he was Demacian at some point there wasn't any lore change. It was just another thing where the band-aids were used to cover the fact that he didn't fit in the world. I just don't think that the current rework has done anything different about that. >Now I'd like to propose an exercise where we as fans think of a way to differentiate Mount Targon from the rest of the different areas on Runeterra whilst at the same time, making them powerful enough as to stand up against pretty much all the other cities. Well, why? Why would they have to be able to stand up to all the other city-states? Sparta, Athens, Corinth, and Thebes were the strongest city-states for a large portion of Ancient Greek history. But there were over 1500 city-states, Asine, Dion, or Patras couldn't stand up to Athens, but they remained free of them for awhile for other reasons, and a hero could come from them just as fine as they could from Sparta. But ok, let's humor you. How to make Targon different than the other major city-states of the lore, but still, in theory, able to deal with the others. The Sindus Mountain Range cuts across the lands of Valorian. Throughout the land numerous smaller cities have sprouted. Several times the forces of Demacia and Noxus have tried to conquer the lands, and even succeeded from time to time. Yet with each attempt the various people have united together and thrown off their conquerors. Five hundred years ago, Metheus, the Lawgiver, Defender of the Sindus, overthrew the last Demacian governor and molded the various cities to act in unison so that a conquest could never happen again. To the greatest of the city-states he gave a task: The Messalian, the Ceretians, and the Iolytos were tasked with providing food for the others, and if necessary increase the ranks of any army with soldiers. The Solari high on the loftiest peaks of Mount Targon, were tasked with honoring philosophy and study of the gods, and offering guidance to the kings and leaders of the other city-states. The Patrians, and Hercleans were set to guard the borders and trade with the barbaric outsiders that kept invading their lands. The Rakkor were set as the soldiers of all of Sindus. Their lives dedicated entirely to the study of war. These most powerful of city-states were to meet each year to plan the future of the Sindus. But over several hundred years the Sindus has changed. Wars between the city-states where not uncommon as each attempted to gain an upper hand on the others. But the Hercleans and the Rakkor have steadily gained power and prominence and now all of Sindus follows either one or the other. With only the Solari standing in the way of a civil war the likes of which the Sindus may never recover from. Yet, in the High Solace, where the elders of the Solari are bound in eternal study, whispers of a lost city-state have been overheard. Talk of the Lunari echo through the halls, and the elders have started to impose harsh punishments on those who speak of them. Is it perfect? Of course not, I wrote this in 5 minutes of boredom at my work. But I tried to weave in a few plot points to take the people and the characters that reside in the world, along with plenty to be fleshed out with future champions. And the city-states within Sindus can be embellished a lot as well. Yes, like Athens, the Hercleans are mostly the economic powerhouse of their people. But a city-state can't run just on merchants. They would have to have their own politicians, soldiers, and workers, only their laws and ideals would be focused on trade. The same for any of them. And none of it involved a mystical star empire that swoops in at the end and nullifies the struggles of the people in the city-states, the ones that the stories should be about. The ones who should be making decisions, revealing hidden truths, and changing their minds _themselves_ not because an outside force makes them. As to myself writing a story. I'm a historian. I can write you a made-up history textbook if you like, but that's the extent of my writing prowess. Hell, if you give me free reign I could actually make fictional lands with histories, and economies that make sense (not like the current Rakkor tribe). But, honestly, you don't find many of the more fantastical fantasy focus on that stuff, so I'm not going to make that a complaint. But, just because I know I can't play a piano, that doesn't mean I don't notice when someone misses a note when they play Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition. And there were some (seeming to me) rather glaring and obvious flaws in Riot's writing. This isn't to say they can't go over again to fix some details when they continue writing lores. Hell, they'll have to. But at the very least keep the core personalities of the characters. At the very least don't shove a space empire that had no set up ever before and suddenly make it the most important part of the new lores.
Is there some way to establish a direct contact to you? I might have need for a historian with the mindset and abilities you demonstrated on these boards so far.
Hige (NA)
: First I don't appreacite your tone, but I'll leave it aside, I have NO intention of telling you to shut up because you can't do it better, as a matter of fact asking someone to do a better story is all we can do, you and several people in this thread ask this of Riot every time you post, my intention with my statement was to make you understand that every single game has the same problem where a bunch of people complain for the sake of complaining without being able to understand bigger underlying issues. Now, again, if you're this good, get hired, write, and get it out to the world, don't sit on a forum and complain about how someone else does it, do you want a game that excels in lore and in lore only? you're welcome to try and do it, the world is your oyster, maybe league of legends is simply not the game for you, but from the way you talk about every game, none will be able to abide by your standards. It is far too easy to sit down and gobble up on self assurance, personally I wish you good luck in the real world and hopefully the wall won't hit you too hard.
Yeah well, you don't appreciate my tone, I don't appreciate being talked to in vapid marketing setpieces. It's the old style vs substance-issue again. >asking someone to do a better story is all we can do No, that's all that hapless people can do. If you have the necessary knowledge and experience, you can detail your criticism, bring examples of it, both historically and related directly to the product in question and ideally make suggestions on how to improve. And guess what, that's exactly what I've been doing, even just with my summary of why FF's plot blows. >Now, again, if you're this good, get hired, write, and get it out to the world, Screw you, I'll do what I want. In all seriousness though, this is another one of those vapid phrases I was talking about. Why? Well let's play this scenario out and see, shall we? Imagine that tomorrow I stop writing for fun and actually set out to write a bestseller and because I'm so amazingly awesome my book gets immediately accepted, published and sells like sugar-coated crack. I become one of the biggest names in fictional writing and even help G.R.R. Marting to finish ASoIaF before he keels over. After that, I deepen my programming skills, set up a PC-lab in my garage and program not only a game with a great story, but one that seemlessly interconnects gameplay and story, making me one of the biggest men in the industry for generations to come. Alright? Sounds great? Sounds great. And is undoubtably amazing for my ego and, presumably, for my finances. Here's the problem though: How - in the endless realms of fuck - does that help me or ANYONE who enjoyed LoL so far and now see it racing head first into a brick wall? Because no matter how stupid rich and famous I might become, the game I enjoy and wish to see doing and improving, will still be driven into the ground. So thanks for the "sage advise", buddy, but you kinda missed the point. And might I add that if me criticising THREE franchises constitutes "every game" to you, you might want to start playing more games than what you can pick up from your local bargain bin. >It is far too easy to sit down and gobble up on self assurance, personally I wish you good luck in the real world and hopefully the wall won't hit you too hard. You too, my friend. And may you develop an original thought on your path.
: Oh, speaking of writing.... could you see my tales of targon thing headbiter? I think you may be a perfect editor for it. I would like someone who's good at critiquing, and someone who would probably not mince words about it.
Sure I can, just hit me up on twitter if you have that. If not...then we'll have to figure out another way to contact each other. Usual warning/disclaimer though: You're right I don't mince words, not even when I criticise my wife's books, so...consider that.
: Pointed out on what exactly? The old lore was a mess with everyone being a goody to shoe. The good vs evil dynamic was jarring to read. Stupid stories about blitzcrank sacking singed or shaco murder some journalist or nidalee relationship with a summobers. If those are what are to be consider good, than you have a really bizzare pallete. Old League lore made zero sense, there was too many foundational holes not to tear down. So what if League lore is going be more like WoW or FF. Last time I heard they actually have good lore compare to the abomanation that is old League.
>Pointed out on what exactly? The old lore was a mess with everyone being a goody to shoe. As per usual, your statements contradict the facts. You claim an good vs. evil dynamic in the old lore. Well, how about Twisted Fate then? He actually saw Graves as a good companion, enjoyed working with him and even though he ultimately - and knowingly - betrayed him for nothing but personal power, he always felt regret about his action. He never regretted the deal but he regretted that his friend needed to pay the price for his own increase in power. The new T.F. on the other side never betrayed Graves. In fact, he risked his freedom and possibly his life to free Graves, constantly tries to talk his old friend down and in the end is even willing to throw his life away - for a guy who tried to kill him as "payback" for an utterly self-inflicted prison sentence and an imagined betrayal. Now comparing those two, which T.F. exactly is the goody two shoe? The old one with the deeply engrained character flaw or the new one who throws almost every available ressource at protecting someone who unjustly blames him for all his ills? And "everyone" is a goody two shoe? Kayle vs. Morgana, one being a blindly loyal soldier to a righteous yet likely fanatic regime, while the other is a violent rebel, fighting for more liberal rights in her world, though she does so with a possibly sadistic streak. Singed, a madman with a slight tendency for genocide? Draven, a man who kills for sport and entertainment? Galio, a sentient construct that failed in his one and only task and now is stripped of his only true purpose in life? Shyvana, a half-breed, shunned and hunted by her kind ever since she was a child, losing both her parents in the process and now being honor-bound to serve under a human, alongside soldiers that she can never truly belong to? Urgot? Motherfucking Urgot? Anyone remembers the story of Kassadin's daughter? Hell, one random look at the roster and I can name any number of champions who can be called any number of things but certainly not goody two shoes. Even fucking Lux earned her accolades in the Demacian military by flawlessly performing behind-enemy-lines spywork. So when you tell me that the OLD lore has nothing but binary good/evil-characters, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. And yes, during the times of the IoW there was silly stuff, especially in the very FIRST original lore (when Tryndamere was a dessert- barbarian). And in contrast to that silly implication, I never claimed the old lore could never be outdone by a more "open world"-approach. It's just that Riot fails spectacularly and provably in doing so. But you know what, at least the silly stuff in the old lore - was SUPPOSED to be silly. Meanwhile, the new lore introduces us the "crown of stone", a TRADITIONAL punishment in **_Demacia_**....that demands the punished soldier to climb **_Mt. Targon_** (which, going by the outdated map would be ridiculous given the distance, but fuck knows how far the distance is now), which is, quote, "known to all as a death sentence" .... despite it apparently being common knowledge that, quote again, "the Crown of Stone was traditionally used by the dishonored to simply flee Demacia and make a new life in exile" And that is not supposed to be a joke, a pop culture reference or some comedy piece, we are actually supposed to consider this a heavy, dramatic moment. Yeah, I think I'll rather take Obi Wan Kenobi's "I have the high ground" seriously. >So what if League lore is going be more like WoW or FF. Last time I heard they actually have good lore compare to the abomanation that is old League. Yeah, let me ask you, did you hear that from the same source that made you claim that summoners no longer exist in the new lore despite Riot officially backpaddling on that matter months ago? The same source that made you claim that every LoL character pre-rework was a "goody two shoes"? Because then I can assume your "source" is somehow stuck in a time long past and I could understand why you would hear that WoW and ESPECIALLY FF have good lore compared to anything.
Hige (NA)
: I have to kindly disagree, I don't want to stirr anything but here you have a player that has been around since Nidalee was released, that was around 6 years ago, at that time I loved the game as it was, just another pc game, stories for characters were there but they never clicked, they felt cheap and done in a matter of minutes, to name a few Sivir being a dominatrix of sorts with tons of money, Pantheon being some war dude and Gragas being just a fat guy who drank wine, neither of them were interesting characters. I do mention Pantheon because when he was released, mount targon wasn't really a thing, it was called mount gargantuan and Pantheon didn't belong to the Rakkor, he was a STANPAR, yes, like spartan but all mixed up, that's how bad lore was back then, you can search the old archived boards and you'll find people complaining about the awful lore that was going around at the time. I wanna get my point across without writing a wall of text so I'll try to cut to the chase. Pantheon's character was given small band-aids all over the place, in order to keep him in line with how the world of runeterra was evolving, with the release of Leona we saw the new name of Mount gargantuan, Mount Targon and with it they got rid of that horrific Stanpar name, sadly, Leona herself wasn't a full character either, the lore team back then STILL made stories on the get go like: "hey here's sun lady, how can she be more sun?" instead of delving into what a character really is they just conceptualized something akin to a base idea AND THEN they tried connecting it to runeterra, hence why Leona was a Rakkor and childhood friends with Pantheon just so they could avoid another Taric-esque character where there's no connection to the world itself. And that's the key word here, connections, in the past, characters had a very small view of the world, for Sivir, she was a rich kid who knew nothing else, it didn't matter that she was from one of the biggest city-states, no, she apparently lived locked up in a castle and went out for adventures once in a while, she had no friends, no rivals, not anything, and it was this non-sense the reason why lore started to be updated, in order to better understand each character we need to understand the world as a whole. The problem? band-aid fixing, this was the case even for new characters, for your beloved Leona this happened as well, Leona was the first female tank of league, so naturally they wanted to connect her with a war theme and the artisan of war was the perfect anchor, see how tacky it looks? -"Well, she's our first female tank, if we connect her with pantheon she'll stay somewhat war themed" -"What's the best way of connecting two characters that look completely different from each others?" -"CHILDHOOD FRIENDS!" There was an obvious lack of thought into old lore, at the time they weren't able to understand how to connect all of these stories that happened to spurt every time a new character was thrown their way, they thought the institute of war was the answer at some point, but that definitely wasn't working (The IoW is the end of the story, not the beginning) and then they realized that developing runeterra was the way to go BUT you can't fit characters in there that weren't thought to fit in since the beginning, so you gotta make changes, take away everything that doesn't help character development (childhood friends) and deepen what does (Mount Targon isn't a city-state, then what is it?) Ended up with a wall of text... damn. Anyway, I find it amazing that you fell in love with the Frankenstein stories of the past but you cannot blame the team for trying to fix the approach of the game's lore. For someone who's been here since the beginning, current lore is a HUGE improvement from what we had, the characters changed, yes, but not understanding this is simply denying that the game had an infancy state and that currently lore is a teenager, a bit odd at times but starting to bloom into something awesome and not just because it's riot games, no, when you read the stories without holding a grudge you realize they're amazing stories on their own, the type of stories that make superhero movies nowadays!
Thing is that even the patchwork lore of the past had actually more depth than the new lore, as was pointed out several times over the course of numerous threads. Burning Tides turned an actual conflict based on betrayal and broken trust into a mere misunderstanding (and Graves into a comedically stubborn moron), Targon turned i.e. Diana from a skilled scholar, researcher, cryptographer and archeologist into a blank slate that is literally dragged through her entire life (read the story again, NOTHING that happens to her is actually her own doing, including something as miniscule as putting on armor) and while the new intro stories are certainly LONGER(filled with genius snippets like "with marvels whose twinkling spectra" , "Cutpurse Square" and "I am your death, I am Pantheon") they offer actually LESS content. At this point I'd usually ask how whitewashing actual conflict, reducing nuanced characters into hapless dolls for the plot and using obscure words no one has used since the late 19th century in an attempt to make your writing appear better than it is, is a "huge improvement" but since Jaredan recently revealed that going forth the game will have NO connection to its own story anymore beyond the pure referencial my interest in doing so at least for League has waned significantly. Maybe things will change but given what I've seen, short of a radical change in leadership and work mentality, League's lore will go the same way as WoW's, Final Fantasy's, Mass Effect's and Elder Scroll's and you may bloody well quote me on that.
: What's got me slightly concerned about such developments is that often they seem to manifest towards the decline of whatever group or organization they permeate. The folks who got the ball rolling and kept it going begin to leave, handing the mantle down to whoever happens to be the runner up, and at some point or other people who aren't very good at running the show, are put in charge of running the show. They don't do what they do to be malicious (mostly). Perhaps in different circumstances they'd even be good in their new role. But the landscape's changed, they're surrounded by people who are a little too like-minded and all too eager to accept their ideas, or perhaps are too apathetic to oppose them. It's become the aforementioned echo chamber, where internal ideas are lauded and dissenting opinions from outside are drowned out, so no amount of criticism by the consumers is actually taken on board. They're sorry you feel that way, they hope their other stuff will be more to your liking. But given the track record, the other stuff won't be to your liking. Eventually people will give up on trying to improve the product through criticism and leave. The only consumers left giving feedback will be the ones who like it, thus extending the echo chamber to the consumer base. Unfortunately, chances are these people won't be enough to keep the wheels turning, and the group/organization will probably dwindle into nothingness. I doubt LoL itself is on the decline, though. Its lore department, maybe. Which wouldn't be surprising, since lore isn't the selling point of the game. Perhaps at some point the higher-ups will decide to pull the plug altogether and the only new "lore" we'll ever see are vague 3-sentence bios on every new champion's page. What I personally find saddest, is that if that happens at this point, I won't care.
>What I personally find saddest, is that if that happens at this point, I won't care. Quite so. Another side-effect of that whole "positivity"-approach is that people think that a negative or even aggressive response to writings is the worst possible reaction, which is such a short-sighted stance. Angry people might not agree with the current course of action, but they still are invested in your product. The worst reaction is portrayed by you and - meanwhile - me. We don't care anymore. Granted, I can only speak for myself, but ever since Jaredan confirmed to me personally that NOTHING in the game, neither the Rift, nor the fights, nor the champions' representation, has any connection to the setting or lore nor will it ever impact them in any way, my interest in the actual game is gone. Because if the lore and therefore the emotional attachment to the characters and the Rift is gone, all that's left is an utterly mediocre MOBA-game, plagued by the same issues as any other MOBA but furthermore lacking basic comfort functions that should be bloody standard for any modern competitive game, offering little to no innovative features in comparison to the competition and craps out in terms of functionality as well. Meanwhile, I have no doubt anymore, that Riot by now consists of the same kind of self-deluding dunces that gave us ["This is not a time travel-addon"](http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1392537-Blizzard-doesn-t-know-what-time-travel-means), ["Button -> Awesome"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzkCmidjeHc), ["Destiny is Destiny"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5yVEZI9HOI) and...well, Hideo Kojima. That has been further confirmed to me after seeing and experiencing Jaredan's ~~"Dodge the questions"-marathon~~ ask.fm-page. And even if, against all expectations, the new lore should indeed turn out to be as mindshatteringly awesome as Jaredan and his "top tier writing staff", as he likes to overhype them so regularly, claim it to be, thanks to Riot's continued efforts to distance the game as far as possible from its story and setting, I can still consume that on their poorly designed web site, with no need for even just the game client being installed on my hard drive. In fact, that's where all the juicy story-bits will be, since Riot has repeatedly explained how they don't want to have the big bios in the client, because it "might confuse people".....who click on the lore button to read a character's lore. And I thought pot was illegal in the states. And yes, I could theoretically go for the League Factions mod but CupcakeTrap, as far as I know, adheres to whatever Riot spits out and tries to adapt it to the IoW-setting which means that in the long-run, he and his project will get utterly hamstringed by Riot's "put the lore in camps"-approach until it will have no more legs to stand on. And that is why I answered so late: After letting my latest experiences with this company sink in and reflecting on the changes made to both the lore and the actual GAME, then applying my supernatural powers of pattern recognition on those observations, then trying and failing to actually FORCE myself to find anything positive in the current direction, I can say with relative certainty that I'm done with LoL. Anything Lore-related won't require me to play the game anymore, any potential cravings for playing MOBA I can now, in good conscious, satisfy with DOTA 2 or Smite and anything creative I might do with the (now former) LoL-lore will be private and something in relation to friends outside of the game, thus headcanon will rule supreme. So...in the name of positivity, I guess I can say thank you Riot for removing anything that attached me to your product in the first place. To the rest of you I can just wish the best of luck in your struggle. In the unlikely event someone wants to maintain contact, find me on twatter, same handle.
Eggbread (NA)
: Which isn't necasserily a bad thing since the less restrictions for story telling the better. Imagine if you constantly had to connect every champion eventually. That would just make everything not too... fun of a story.
>Which isn't necasserily a bad thing since the less restrictions for story telling the better. Yeah, that's one of the oldest and most persistent myths about storytelling despite being disproven countless time. It's what amateurs and start ups believe: "Storytelling is a creative craft and creativity must be free, so the less restrictions for a storyteller the better." Ergo, the best stories out there should be those with NO restrictions, right? Only that the opposite is the case: Good and outstanding stories and settings always have a clearly defined set of rules and once these rules are set, you adhere to them religiously. And these restrictions, contrary to popular belief, do not hinder you but challenge you to let your characters overcome obstacles within the boundries of their world. Likewise, it has been proven time and time again, especially in the realm of Gaming-stories, that the creative downfall of a franchise is almost always initiated when writers do away with creative limitations in their desire to "be free". For an example I could point to a number of examples, the most apt probably being the fail-o-saurus that World of WarCraft has become, given how the parallels between Riot and Activision-Blizzard become more apparent by the hour, but really I can use LoL directly: While they still had to tie every champion to the IoW, stories and especially characters were more fleshed out. They had to be, since the setting DEMANDED that somewhere in a champion's story, the words "and that is why he/she/it joined the League of Legends". Since the abolishment of the League many (not all) of the champions that appeared since then where decidedly one-note, with most of them having some kind of quirk (Jinx destroys stuff, Gnar becomes big when he's angry, Rek'sai.....eats shit) in place of either an actual personality, character traits or an actual background. This rampant, so called "creative freedom" is in most cases the source for plot holes as well. How did character X achieve feat Y? How did this guy get to that place? [Why would an advanced Alien race, capable of space flight, try to invade a planet, mostly covered in a substance that's like acid to them?](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/08/The_Signs_movie.jpg) All logical issues that stem from a writer knowing WHAT they want to happen, while having an absolute disregard to logical restrictions in the setting they're telling that story in. So yeah...[creative limitations are a GOOD thing.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-SfvGUmr_A)
Xonra (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=Is8ELEyG,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2016-04-23T23:21:12.859+0000) > > A lot of people are asking kind of "Spoiler" questions though. "What exactly are the plans for Fizz." It's a surprise. "Hey, I was wondering what the direction of Fizz is." It's. A. Surprise. "Hey, what about Fizz." SURPRISE GUYS! IT'S A SURPRISE! Sure, there were some of those, but I mean, even just basic stuff was just very vague and evasive responses. Most of the responses were either far too jokey or just seemed like someone far too used to PR speak that they couldn't answer otherwise from force of habit. I guess I just miss the Riot that talked like humans over the Riot of today that talks like PR robots or refuses to communicate in most cases.
Quite so. Don't know if the question's already in the list but[ I asked him whether the Rift and the fights we play there are still part of Runeterra.](http://ask.fm/RiotJaredan/answers/137120569285) Not a particularly complex question you might think, right? His answer: _There's not currently a one-for-one version of the Rift in Runeterra. Our general goal is to create a vibrant story world and a vibrant game. They're related to each other, but they're not exactly the same._ [Upon pressuring him on that](http://ask.fm/RiotJaredan/answers/137120671173) (because, you know, I'm such a big fan of this corporate moonspeech), his response was: _They're allegorical to each other, as we've outlined in the past. The Champions being the most directly related elements, though they might not always be identical to the game in how they're shown in different stories. For example, we might do a fun romp with Garen and Corki (pulling things out the air here). In that story, in whatever format it is, it'll be obvious it's Garen, but him through a more whimsical lens that's obviously just for that story. Or we could do a story about Garen and the effect that years of war have had on his ability to connect with his fellow Demacian soldiers. There's a range of possibilities and tones, and it's unlikely all of those tones will be reflected within the game. It should always be distinctly Garen though in whatever medium you see him in, including the game. Even with that in mind, I'd love to get around to adding some more lines to Miss Fortune in a post-Burning Tides world. We want to show Champs growing through story, changing as they make life-altering choices, in ways that can be reflected in the game, when appropriate. Summoners have their own identity, but I can't go into that yet. If you want a specific explanation of how the game is explained by a story, placing it within Runeterra, then I'm afraid that isn't likely._ So, in short, nothing that happens in the game has any influence on the fictional world and they'll tell the story exclusively outside of the game. There, one sentence, done. But I guess that showcases what you described: It's a flood of text that completely goes past the question, all seemingly in an effort not to outright say "The Rift and the game have nothing to do with the world we're 'exploring' through storytelling". Which, now that I think about it, is the setup of Heroes of the Storm....fuck me...
: I agree with you on everything you said. Linda/New!Leona's character is an abomination when you consider it's based on an older one, this new lore REEKS of the kind of edgy grimdarkness that requires a very specific story or a particularly talented writer not to come of as a depressed teenager's story pitch, and the lore team's continual disrespect for the work of their predecessors, almost reaching the point of disgustingly insulting, is a pity to see. But what I want to know, above all else, is this. Where the fuck is the galactic empire spoken in Aurelion Sol's lore? Targon is supposed to be the epicenter of a fucking interstellar Dominium, an Empire so powerful not only have they conquered multiple planets, they have powerful enough magic to ENSLAVE THE CREATOR OF MOST OF THE KNOWN STELLAR BODIES IN THE UNIVERSE to do their bidding to fight the Void, with which they are apparently having a multi-planeted war with. I just have so many questions, and just thinking about it gives me headaches. How the fuck does Runeterra manage to stay goddamned alive if most their troops have only swords, shields, bows and magic when fighting something that gives an interstellar empire and a Cosmic Nigh-Immortal Old-as-the-Universe celestial dragon a run for their money? Why do the Aspects, whatever the fuck they are and whatever their hierarchy within the Targonian Empire is, need the people of Mount Targon in particular to possess? I assume an Interstellar Empire needs spaceships, so where are they? Does the Yordle Mothership have anything to do with it. And, more important, why should I give a single solitary shit about anything else happening in this world, considering even Aurelion Fucking Sol dismissed the supposed major Shurimian event and the Sun Disk explosion as primitive child's play? Every story that they publish that's not this could be about a powerful interstellar Empire fighting alongside a Cosmic Dragon against a the Void in an all out multi-planetary war. After setting the scales so high, I'll feel massively cheated every time the lore team pulls me away from this premise to talk about all the ways Jhin kills a few pricks, or how Graves really likes his shotgun.
Oh don't even get me started on Aurelion Sol... So you don't like the Targonians? Might I suggest throwing a sun at them?
: > Let me shine that light a bit brigher (hur-durr) on that situation: A rebel willing to die for her cause now belongs to the UPPER ECHELON of the society she wants to change. How in the FUCK, is that "being stuck". She literally found herself in a position to change a century-old society, neck-deep entrenched in conservative ideals and you tell me she's nothing special and she's stuck?! Then tell me. What did she change? Show me once instance, just one, of something the old Leona did that made a difference. Because I can't find anything. > My mind is buzzing with the stories I could take this, whether I go down the path of tragedy or redemption and you want to tell me she was "locked"? What the hell? Where on earth did you pull redemption from? Theres literally not a single thing in any of her lore or VOs that signify any regret. She's completely consumed with rage, and will burn and blight anything that stands in her way. Nothing else says otherwise. > And her new version? The one that has "the opportunity to be so much more"? In EIGHTEEN butt-fucking paragraphs she was brought up to be a initiate simply because some guys found her and decided to put her in the temple, stumbled upon her first lead by nothing but dumb luck, found the cave because she was literally LEAD there by a vision ex machina, COULDN'T EVEN DRESS HERSELF and ultimately, when it was time to defend herself...she passed out and woke up in a circle of corpses. So let's see...has no discernable skills, didn't do anything worthwhile, too lazy/dumb to dress, no discernable agenda until her ascension and no control over her actions. Yeah, what a rich and endearing...blank slate. Everyone starts somewhere. I'd be a lot less interested if I heard that Leona was someone who was brought up to be the next Aspect of the Sun, for example. Hell, the very fact that she's so simple before makes her much more compelling. It means she truly has to embrace and work with her new self, even if she's not truly ready.
>Then tell me. What did she change? Show me once instance, just one, of something the old Leona did that made a difference. Because I can't find anything. Wait...are honestly trying to pull this off? With me? This was the OUT-SET of her story. The first chapter. Just because Riot never DID anything with that narrative gold mine doesn't mean that there CAN'T be anything done with it. That's a failure on the author's part, not the story. >Where on earth did you pull redemption from? Theres literally not a single thing in any of her lore or VOs that signify any regret. She's completely consumed with rage, and will burn and blight anything that stands in her way. Nothing else says otherwise. Yyeeah...munchkin, that's the point with redemption. You can't be redeemed if you don't go down a path to potential damnation first. The fact that she IS consumed by rage and set to murder the people whose acceptance she once sought is exactly the reason why redemption is an option for her. What, you want to redeem an already virtuous character? Because I have some snow to sell to an Inuit, while you're at it. And just like before you take the very outset of a story, the prologue and declare that, combined with the author's self-inflicted inactivity to be a case of "being stuck", which is utter bullshit. > I'd be a lot less interested if I heard that Leona was someone who was brought up to be the next Aspect of the Sun, for example. Funny, given that this is EXACTLY what's happening in the new lore. New Leona was just in the middle of fighting for her life, when suddenly an elder Solari comes along, says "Hey, that girl could possibly be the new aspect of the sun I had a nondescript vision about"...and then he takes her with him and literally _"brings her up to be the next Aspect of the Sun"_. Meanwhile, this... >Hell, the very fact that she's so simple before makes her much more compelling. It means she truly has to embrace and work with her new self, even if she's not truly ready. is PRECISELY what happens in the OLD lore. She suddenly is chosen, not by an old codger with daytime hallucinations but by whatever supernatural force "the sun" was back then. She has unfound powers and an unexpected destiny thrust upon her, with no way to prepare for that and now, again, quoting yourself, _"has to embrace and work with her new self, even if she's not truly ready."_ I mean...this is unbelievable....You make my arguments for me.
: I suppose the thing that I hate about the new lore is the paradigm of the yin and yang of both Leona and Diana. Both were problem children of there respective societies. Leona questioned the need to kill; while Diana questioned the faith of the Solari Both were persecuted and sentenced to death for going against their very beliefs. Leona chose not to kill during her battle and Diana spoke up against the elders regarding the teachings of the Moon. Lastly both were saved by the power of their gods. However in the end, Leona had people to support her afterwards, Diana did not. Which turned her bitter towards all others. This is what is missing from the lore that I know. This very basic symbol of the sun and the moon. Also as discussed with their creator, Iron Stylus. They had a very heavily implied relationship during their time in the Solari. Which for myself was one thing I could relate to. Which now I have nothing in any of the lores.
You have my thanks, for saving me the trouble to write that, if for nothing else. It's such a shame, that so many people overlook that facet of their relationship that is now gone.
: _Leona really hates this and gets angry and gets ready to kill Diana as soon as ordered_ You could also paraphrase this as _Leona gets very angry while Diana speaks and understands she will be ordered to kill Diana for heresy_ The very act of paraphrasing is interpretation. I understand the protest is over the fact that she was willing to be an executioner. There is just so much lost in the generalization of this ordeal. We don't get line by line dialogue. We don't get internalized thoughts. I feel like I'm trying to decipher a passage from a history book. There is barely enough information to know what happened without really knowing exactly how or why it happened. Quick Edit: I honestly can't think of a reason why Leona wouldn't be angry at Diana for speaking such nonsense. But being angry does not translate to murderous intent. We don't have to change how she felt about Diana's words to smooth things over.
>No. That's a mere fact. You're recoloring a fact to suit your agenda. >If you want murderous intent, I'll rewrite it for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWohBmoAwAw (poor quality, I know, what can you do?) If they didn't want to imply that it was Leona's intend/hope to kill the heretic, why in the blazes would they link her rising anger AND that thought in one sentence like this: "Leona felt her anger build with every word Diana spoke, and when the elders rejected her words and named her a blasphemer, Leona knew it would be her blade that ended the heretic’s life." Everything from the sentence structure to the choice of words (Diana being referred to as "the heretic", the formulation of "it would be her blade") ABSOLUTELY implies a desire on Leona's part, further enforced by her IMMEDIATE desire to not only kill but "destroy" Diana, after she recovered, immediately chasing after someone with no backup, no plan, no consideration for maintaining order in the wake of the elders' death. To bring an example with a healthy distance to the setting, take this passage I just made up: "Marcus was no longer willing to tolerate the intruder's behaviour and knew that the wanderer would not see the light of morning again." Now, TECHNICALLY that could mean a lot of things. Maybe "Marcus" has the ability to see the future or is a doctor on the level of Dr. House and thus he literally KNEW that the "wanderer" would die this night. Maybe the first part of the sentence means that Marcus will leave the place they're in and the wanderer will somehow go blind before the next morning and the two events, while being connected by the sentence and its structure have NOTHING to do with each other. The author just felt silly. But somethign tells me that you any anyone else who read that line, immediately made the -quite logical - assumption that Marcus would AT LEAST be somewhat involved into the anything but natural death of the wanderer. Also, you more than likely assumed that "the intruder" and "the wanderer" refer to the same person, right? From the way the sentence is written, it's just the most reasonable thing to assume. So yeah, just as is said in the Scrubs-clip at the beginning: If you hear hoofbeats, you just go ahead and think horsies, not zebras.
: > [{quoted}](name=Headbiter,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=BrzlrhQX,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-04-22T01:30:42.551+0000) > > By the way, I would LOVE to have some sort of discussion table between actual fans of the lore and some of Riot's writing staff. You know, having someone from the community represent the critical thoughts of the community and debate/formulate them in a concise manner (in contrast to the moshpit that is twitch-chat/reddit). > > Also, with actually critical arguments, not one of those press-events we can see at some conventions and in politics, where the "Do you think you do good work?" is considered a "daring question." Well Jaredan did say he was going to open an ask.fm (I think I have that right never been to the site myself) to answer questions more directly. And I don't know about you, but I have a few questions lined up for him when it opens. Just make sure to word questions appropriately and don't attack them and hopefully they'll answer. Hopefully.
Yeah, I'll honestly rather wait and see for his first responses, because if I get another rendition of "I'm sorry you feel that way, ~~please call customer support~~ I hope you like our next project where we'll do the same as usual", [Imma gonna choke a bitch](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxG9jeZBafs). That, the sign limit and the still very likely possibility of him cherry-picking the questions are pretty much the reason why I would prefer him to answer to a human being sitting in the same room as him, at the same table. But hey, maybe I'm wrong and since you seem very eager to use that ask-page of his, if you see any of the points I make that you'd like to use/adress please, don't hesitate and take and rewrite them however you like, you have my blessing.
: On the most part, I disagree. Old Leona had her charm, but it was also nothing special. She was just a protector. Other than being blessed by the Sun, she wasn't anything special. She didn't have any specific driving forces. She had no real motivations. She was just stuck where she was. New Leona has much more opportunity to grow. She has room to doubt herself, to challenge others, to alter and in turn change others. She feels so much more alive now. Same with Diana. In the old lore, she was locked into the role of 'avenging pscyopathic religious zealot'. Now she has the opportunity to be so much more.
>She didn't have any specific driving forces. She had no real motivations. She was just stuck where she was. I'm sorry if this comes across as harsh, but between this, "Old Leona was a pacifist" and "There is no difference between old and new Diana" I can't help but wonder whether we're back in the time when reading was a rare and valuable ability. Leona was a character that was born with talents and abilities that could've gotten her anywhere she wanted within her martial society. She then was willing to die for her beliefs which directly contradicted her culture's values, effectively throwing away the aforementioned status and power she could've attained. She then is chosen by the sun and elevated to the Solari, in the old lore LITERALLY a higher social caste of the Rakkor, and put into a position of - for her - formerly unimaginable martial and political power. Let me shine that light a bit brigher (hur-durr) on that situation: A rebel willing to die for her cause now belongs to the UPPER ECHELON of the society she wants to change. How in the FUCK, is that "being stuck". She literally found herself in a position to change a century-old society, neck-deep entrenched in conservative ideals and you tell me she's nothing special and she's stuck?! A Song of Ice and Fire starts with three random assholes getting killed in the middle of nowhere but this is a dead end to you? Same with Diana, she was a well-read, intelligent woman who tried to bring change in a peaceful manner, spending who knows how much time to find undeniable proof for her beliefs in search for acceptance and only turned into, as you put it, a "avenging psychopathic religious zealot" when she was sentenced to death for ACTUALLY BEING SUCCESFUL IN FINDING PROOF. She turned so hateful because even when doing everything right, she was faced with hate and exile, even though all she was looking for was acceptance. My mind is buzzing with the stories I could take this, whether I go down the path of tragedy or redemption and you want to tell me she was "locked"? What the hell? And her new version? The one that has "the opportunity to be so much more"? In EIGHTEEN butt-fucking paragraphs she was brought up to be a initiate simply because some guys found her and decided to put her in the temple, stumbled upon her first lead by nothing but dumb luck, found the cave because she was literally LEAD there by a vision ex machina, COULDN'T EVEN DRESS HERSELF and ultimately, when it was time to defend herself...she passed out and woke up in a circle of corpses. So let's see...has no discernable skills, didn't do anything worthwhile, too lazy/dumb to dress, no discernable agenda until her ascension and no control over her actions. Yeah, what a rich and endearing...blank slate. And just to make this clear: NONE of the above statements is made based on baseless assumptions, wishful thinking or some obscure forum/reddit posts, not even the journal of justice. ALL of it can be found right in the official old and new lore, as it still can be found on lol wikia/the Mt. Targon site to this very day.
: "but ironStylus (their designer) said those were their plans." you have a link? i was a fan of pantheonxleona too because it made sense. "they have the full right to change them into completely different people. Of course, that doesn't mean we have to like it now does it?" of course they do, but no self respecting artist would. if even the artist doesn't care enough about a character to be faithful to who that character is then why should we? why should we care about any character that they make in future if they just treat their characters like damn dry erase board that they can add or remove anything about them simply because they feel like it?
Couldn't agree more. Also, no matter who you are or what you're writing on, a rewrite of a long-established character will ALWAYS garner...controversy, to say the least, so it's a simple matter of common sense to avoid that unless absolutely necessary for your plot. And there is literally NOTHING in the new setup, neither in what has happened nor in what was hinted at/could occur in the future, that couldn't have been done just as well with the old personalities of Leona and Diana. With Pantheon and Taric I can at least see why they would want to go into a different direction, though Pantheon in particular still makes me shake my head.
: Don't worry about it, your a lot better at criticizing the writing than I am. Besides, we both are here with the same hope; that lol can improve as long as they learn from their mistakes. I just take more offense to unnecessary character changes (because I feel I'm bette from that point of view). Anyways, I'm glad to see you here to. Hopefully a rioter will actually response to you, because you are an excellent critic.
Thanks for the kind words. And while I indeed would love to have a Rioter have an actually HONEST conversation - in contrast to the repeated pseudo-polite apology pieces - I sincerely don't mind even if I'd land on some sort of blacklist at Riot, as long as SOMEONE gets through to them. Because as I pointed out at several occasions, even if we ignore personal taste, there are just glaring issues in the writing itself that do not warrant the level of confidence that is displayed here.
: Heh, at times I do wonder if Riot's (lore) development team has gotten too tightly knit and become an echo chamber of sorts. This'll sound paranoid but when one Rioter on here mentioned that they're looking for staff who aren't just good writers, but also "good Rioters" my first thought was "what, you mean yes-men who'll agree with anything?" Yeah, I know it's not what s/he meant, but in some ways the new lore reminds me of Star Wars Episodes 1-3 plus the remasters. Not enough dissenting voices to George Lucas' antics during development and we got ourselves three mediocre movies plus Jar Jar (Olaf in Shadow and Fortune, lol) and Greedo shooting first instead of Han Solo being a badass (Diana getting moon-controlled instead of being a force of reckoning). The writing has me confused because to me it comes off as... um, rather amateur level. Yet they have _at least_ one experienced writer on the team (though I haven't actually checked any credentials), so what in the world is going on? Are the writers just not all that into it, but despite everything their work gets OKed with no criticism? Is there a lack of experienced editors on staff? What? "Here's my first draft on Aurelion Sol, what do you think?" "PERFECT. Don't change a thing." "What? Are you sure?" "Oh yeah, this is awesome. You're awesome. We're all awesome." "Okay."
Quite frankly, I don't know how much of that can be reasonably chalked up to paranoia. The implication here isn't that Riot intentionally builds up a cult-like environment, were every voice of dissent is threatened. But what I CAN see shining through in many aspects of the company's behaviour is this dreaded focus on "positivity" that is so omnipresent especially in modern western companies, particularly those heavily entrenched in social media - a description that fits Riot, among others, to a T. And it's an easy sell, right? I mean, who would have anything against positivity? It's something utterly positive, right? It's even in the name, so it must be good, right...right? Enter the infamous saying of "too much of anything can make you sick". I genuinely believe that within Riot, just as it can be reasonably suspected with many other contemporary companies that went down a rather....[unfortunate road to say the least](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnVOxpTu4qQ) (the point I'm trying to make ends at 1:27 but you're more than advised to watch the entirety and realize how little has changed in 6 years) there is this philosophy of permanent and almost obligatory POSITIVE support, which at this point might have swollen to such an obscene degree that any form of ACTUAL criticism is considered to constitute negativity and therefore not uttered at all for the fear of offending the dear co-workers. Which would explain - among other things - why Riot decided after 6 years to elevate their MOBA to a LIFE-STYLE (!) during a time when the actual game, between the lack of BASIC comfort-functions (replay-function anyone?), fewer regular game modes than ever and the n^x-th rework of their basic game mode in less than two years, resembles less a pristine prestige-project to be carried into a golden future but more a moldy mansion that barely survived some medieval sieges. [So basically the airport in Berlin, Germany. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport#Construction_progress) So while I can see your George Lucas-comparison (which I myself like to employ more often than I probably should) and absolutely agree with the general statement, Lucas was not opposed due to reasons of fear and respect. At Riot, I'm afraid, it's more of an issue that dissent is considered to be synonymous with loathing...or to use the common trend-words: "salt" and "toxicity". The problem is, that once you start to judge arguments based on their presentation instead of their merit, you're bound to fuck up your own work.
: My problems with new!Leona
By the way, I would LOVE to have some sort of discussion table between actual fans of the lore and some of Riot's writing staff. You know, having someone from the community represent the critical thoughts of the community and debate/formulate them in a concise manner (in contrast to the moshpit that is twitch-chat/reddit). Also, with actually critical arguments, not one of those press-events we can see at some conventions and in politics, where the "Do you think you do good work?" is considered a "daring question."
: Same here, It's always nice to see you post.
Probably not quite as welcome here but after finally having dragged myself through all the new lore pages, with Leona in fact being the last, I can understand the despise only too well. What worries me is that even if we remove all issues based on personal taste (Leona's change in personality, while infuriating to fans of the original, can still work on its own terms), there is still a shit load of issues on a pure craftmanship-level, beginning with the reverse of the content-to-text ratio _(the old lore gave us MORE INFORMATION with LESS TEXT) _going on with tired, old and outright lazy tropes (_lucky that the elder who JUST HAPPENED to pass by that fight and that he just HAPPENED to know a vague, non-descript.....*sigh* prophecy - who made that, when, where and why does apparently no one but the elder know/care about it?)_ and ending with absolutely weird world building _(so the punishment of a convicted heretic under the Rakkor is that the convict has to enter a death match against the son of the one who exposed him? Oo)._ Which wouldn't be too much of an issue, mistakes are made and especially younger writers stumble into easy traps - except that Riot's writing staff is supposed to be at least led by experienced, seasoned writers. But then you remember how especially Jaredan dismisses such criticisms or even outright ignores them and keeps going on about the insanely high standards for his writing staff and that they got BETTER with time (last time I checked, needing MORE lines in order to convey LESS information was a rather objective sign of comparably POOR abilities). That is what makes me fear for any future lore: A clear overabundance of self-confidence paired with a number of PROVABLY amateurish and recurring writing mistakes. Mistakes can be corrected, but only if you realize and accept them as such.
: .....that's still the same meaning. Even though you saved someone, you still did it by crashing into the enemy and smashing them upside the skull (like in her color story in the new lore). The old lore Leona imbodied a pacifist, something that in game Leona didn't show in the slightest. Even the emote quotes, which are a way to move the lore into the game, showed that she was a fighter: > I broke a nail! Good thing it wasn't mine! or > Next time, try to leave a dent! There was a disjunct between the two portrayals of Leona, and the needed to fix it. They went with the version that was locked in stone already, the gameplay, and fit her story to how she acted their
>The old lore Leona imbodied a pacifist Okay, can we please bury that made up nonsense? It was NEVER even remotely implied that Leona was a pacifist. A pacifist abhors violence and will rather put him/herself through pain and suffering before doing (physical) harm to others. In ALL incarnations of Leona's lore was it made very clear that she's a capable fighter, a powerful warrior of the Rakkorans and more than capable of battling against even the most powerful of her peers. What she didn't do was to glorify the act of killing. That. is. all. Literally, all she did, was stand against the undeniably bloodthirsty philosophy of her people but she NEVER showed to have any issue with fighting or even killing, for that matter, as long as it was a last resort. By your logic, every fictional character who refuses to actively kill would be a pacifist. Like Batman.
: My Thoughts on BloodRazer, Devourer being removed in 6.9
The very existence of devourer confused the hell out of me, to be honest. First of all, the modern enchantments are pretty much the same jungle items we had in the last incarnation of the jungle (Spirit of [insert jungle camp here] ), at least as far as their purpose goes (one for cd-ad champs, one for mages, one for tanks) and the equivalent to devourer was wriggle's lantern. Minor differences aside, this was the same item, that encouraged the same playstyle (though Devourer was slightly better, read didn't outright punish you for actually ganking) and, big surprise, caused the EXACT same problems with the EXACT SAME champions. Therefore it amazed the shit out of me that Riot would decide to make a jungle item rework (again) only to step into the same pile of poop. Furthermore, it was around that time that Riot announced they wanted to battle the omnipresent and overly strong snowballing in LoL, because, well, once one team got ahead, that team would also win without much competition in approximately 3 to 4 out of 5 cases. So they introduced another snowball-item. Granted, the snowballing aspect was cut down massively in later incarnations of Devourer but that was just a glorious moment of WTFuckery. And now they go back to another once-removed item. I wonder if we packed away the "Malady Monday"-memes too early. But I won't lie, I'm glad that they FINALLY did what untold fuckloads of players advised them to do for years. Let's see where this is going.
Kadavik (NA)
: Its not the person behind the mask. BUT THE IDEA.
And ideas. Are. Bulletproof!
Rioter Comments
: Attempt 12: I just spent half an hour posting a response to your post, Darrosh, and it hung when loading and lost everything. Pulling my hair out a bit. Here's an unfortunately truncated version (I'm on my laptop as I'm on a travel day back from Spring Finals so don't have my usual trusty work desktop). Apologies if I'm a little brief for now. In short: we have a lot of work to do to get our cadence of content up to a level that we are satisfied with. That will make a lot of difference in showing the world and its main players in action. I disagree that our quality has not improved. I absolutely agree, and apologize, that we have much more to do in regard to cadence. The main blockers in the past were due to not having the teams to make these things happen. Now, as teams are in place on our Creative Dev initiative and on League of Legends (just the way our production initiatives are organized) the challenge is in recruiting the right people to give us the writing resources (as well as the skills of other disciplines) on those teams to get content to you in addition to the content we already produce (including increasing the depth of the written content for Champ and ChampUp). As I mentioned in another post recently, bringing in people who are excellent writers, and excellent Rioters is extremely challenging. As one of the people challenged with doing that task, it's a responsibility not just for the thing we want to make now, but it's for the health of Riot and the quality of content we want to produce for years to come. I, and other hiring managers and recruiters, have to think in the long-term for many undeniable reasons, even when our personal desire to ship content to you makes it very tempting to do otherwise. Even so, there are still things being produced that we want to build out our Champs and the world they inhabit in a way that will give a better understanding of it while delivering on strong story. We don't want to explain the world through wiki entry. We want to show it in story. There are a variety of different teams working on things that include character and story content (Champion, ChampUp, Foundations), and other teams that are exclusively working on story media content that I hope you will see soon. I know that's another 'soon' answer, and I don't like to give them as they are too vague (which you rightly say is also an issue with the overall understanding of the direction of Runeterra as a story world). It's not just Narrative, there are a number of people from various disciplines, such as Art, Audio, Dev Management etc. working on teams across Riot to get more to you. We wrote Burning Tides: The Reckoning and Shadow and Fortune as direct responses to issues with events like the Freljord. We know we've had an issue with mystery boxes or just setting things up and leaving them hanging. We want to show things being setup in the world, having resolutions to arcs, and there ramifications setting up other arcs. Though TF and Graves resolved part of their story, it will lead them on to the next adventure. Their actions set up a large arc for both MF and Gangplank that will have a lot of impact on Bilgewater for some time to come. We will be continuing various stories. Shurima next. We would love to do more, concurrently, but we don't have the extra writing resources as of yet. That's changing though, and the work being done by some newer members of the team will be arriving with you through this year. I know it seems easy to rewrite a few paragraphs in 45 minutes (also, multiply that by 100+), but it isn't, not within the environment of limited resources and competing priorities that are absolutely valid considerations. Also, we want our Champ intros to be better than they ever were (and I think we're doing that). All of the Champions will be getting rewritten intros, including those who have inconsistencies due to the change we made in removing the IoW. It's simply that doing themed bundles such as Foundations, Champ and ChampUp did with Targon makes a ton of sense for us from a production standpoint. Your questions about the world: Noxus is an expansionist empire that highly values adding strength to its already considerable might. Ionia is a land unique with the way its people and lands are affected by magic that is almost opulent in comparison to many other realms. That's a very dangerous way of looking at magic, particularly the wilder elements of Ionia's relationship to that power, but it would make Ionia very interesting to Noxus. There are other motivations for the Noxian occupation of Ionia, including the actions of some specific Champs and related characters that we want to show in stories (as well as the impact the invasion had on Ionia at the end of the main conflict), so I can't go into details here due to spoilers, but I hope I've covered the general idea of why that invasion still happened. Noxus and Demacia don't have the runes that can cause the level of devastation seen in the Rune Wars. Not at the moment. There are a variety of runes that can do some pretty impressive things, but only a particular set of them have the power that was displayed in the horrors of the Rune Wars. And Bard isn't the only player when it comes to taking care of threats on a global scale, particularly where runes that could devastate continents are involved. When Noxus push the Barbarians far enough North, it gets a lot harder to pursue, particularly with the Avarosans involved thanks to Tryndamere. Also, I'd think with Noxus having a fairly limited understanding of the Freljord (in regard to the power that lurks beneath the ice) their motivation to pursue the comparatively ragtag survivors across a seemingly frigid wasteland isn't overwhelming. That might be something certain Noxians live to regret. I understand your frustration. I share it, even if I disagree with certain points, mainly in some matters of taste, but I do agree we need to get more to you. To your suggestions: 1) We're working on a variety of episodic stories to set up expectation of content cadence and then deliver on it with consistency to create trust and do many of the things we want to pay off on. We have plans to have a variety of Narrative folks talk about different elements of Champions and Runeterra, such as with the Targon podcast. You'll be hearing those in the weeks and months ahead. For what I can do personally, I want to do some regular chats about aspects of story and character. I'll try to do that, but, frankly, my main priority is finding writers to provide the long-term sustainable content we all want. I've been asked to do an ASK.FM and I've promised to set that up once I'm back in the busy swing of things this week. 2) A map is in process. It will follow the style variety and execution as shown in the Bilgewater map and in the Shurima artifact teased in the Rek'Sai launch. The Foundations team, with Bio, is working on it. 3) We want to focus on culture through the lens of character, But we certainly want to do that more, as we did in the examples you gave. 4) We can talk varying degrees in success of execution for sure, but I think our recent Champs show a lot of variety in personality. Ekko, Illaoi, Jhin, and Aurelion Sol, for example. 5) Completely agreed. We want a variety of tones in Runeterra and content that reflects it. We've leaned into certain tones a bit too consistently. 6) I can only talk personally on this, engagement here is an individual thing for Rioters, but I disagree that I cherry pick positive posts alone. Maybe I've let my ratio slip due to pure time constraints recently, but I hope I've shown I'm willing to engage on the most thorny issues over the last 18 months. You may have not seen those posts, but they're there. The main issue I have is the amount of time I can spend responding (it takes a while as this second attempt at this post shows). It's a priority for me, but it's one among other priorities that includes getting more great writers in to ship more content to you. I'm going to give ASK.FM a go and see if that helps a bit, but I certainly want to engage more than I've been able to lately. I respect your passion and willingness to lay out your thoughts clearly, Darrosh. Thank you. I hope I've answered some of the questions you had, and I hope this being written in a bit of a rush doesn't make it completely incoherent. Cheers,
>I disagree that our quality has not improved. I absolutely agree, and apologize, that we have much more to do in regard to cadence. Yes, you said that before. Would you PLEASE, finally elaborate on at least one example where you get that stance from? Because just as "You suck" is a useless criticism, "I disagree" is a useless response, because it doesn't provide a counter-position anyone can understand. That is EXACTLY why you get accused so often of saying "I understand but I don't care." Examples: When I criticise the writing of your "top tier writing staff", I don't just say "It's shit", I say it's verbose and bloated, using i.e. almost every paragraph of the Aurelion Sol page with phrases like "of a comet often **portends** a period" and "seeking to fill **a canvas of incalculable breadth* with marvels whose **twinkling spectra**" as an example. I further point out that this is exactly the kind of writing that has been criticized as needlessly verbose [since centuries, by some of the greatest writers in human history.](https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm) When I criticise Burning tides, I point out how the entire conflict between TF and Graves seems absolutely silly and the resolution feels terribly empty by removing the former FACT of TF betraying his one friend for power. Overcoming such a breach of trust would be something notable, even amazing. Telling him "Yeah, nobody betrayed you, you were just an idiot" and him going "Oh...alright then" is the kind of dialogue that's usually followed by a laughing track. When I criticise Targon, I point out that Diana USED to be a woman woman with defined skills, hinted-at backgrounds and personal initiative in her original, much shorter lore. She does her research on her own out of a desire to proove something, she shows skills in research, logical thinking and even archeology to a certain degree and when she's about to be executed it is undoubtably HER who kills the elders out of bitterness and sorrow. Now, despite having much more TEXT, we have way less personality. We don't see her demonstrate any skills of her own, because every lead she just stumbles upon and every discovery is made by her being dragged along by some outside force, including the slaughter of the elders, which she apparently wasn't even concious for. Granted, answering to all of those and the undoubtably massive flood of specific lore questions that have come before and will come thereafter is nearly impossible but addressing at least ONE concrete criticism with an equally solid respons would be so much more helpful to understand your claimed "passion and demands at your own work" than the usual, often recited "Sure, but I see it differently".
: What to do with Jax? Art/lore discussion, passive-aggressive whining, and random thoughts
Just as a funny cheer-up for all Jax-fans. http://goo.gl/goIIYm This song for jungle-Jax...bullseye.
: > [{quoted}](name=Darrosh Jewfist,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ilXJ8AjZ,comment-id=000c00010001000000010000,timestamp=2016-04-17T17:12:06.603+0000) > > What you should tell them is that it's been 1.5 years since their retcon and some champ bios still have League, Summoners, and Institute of War in them. > > Might want to get on that. They _**most definitely**_ know. Pretty sure the issue isn't that they're unaware of how many champs still need their biographies worked on. Also, Darrosh - you mentioned in another comment that there were errors in the Bilgewater stories. Dialogue choices, etc. Do you have a thread with those called out? I'm not on the team (as I mentioned) but as a hobbyist writer, I'd like to know what is wrong in a piece of fiction I found pretty good. If I don't know what's wrong - I can't improve myself! Thanks for any help there.
> [{quoted}](name=Bioluminescence,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ilXJ8AjZ,comment-id=000c000100010000000100000000,timestamp=2016-04-17T17:17:38.231+0000) > > They _**most definitely**_ know. Pretty sure the issue isn't that they're unaware of how many champs still need their biographies worked on. > > Also, Darrosh - you mentioned in another comment that there were errors in the Bilgewater stories. Dialogue choices, etc. Do you have a thread with those called out? I'm not on the team (as I mentioned) but as a hobbyist writer, I'd like to know what is wrong in a piece of fiction I found pretty good. If I don't know what's wrong - I can't improve myself! Thanks for any help there. There have been plenty of criticisms, from the unhelpful "You suck" to very elaborate analysis that pointed out issues of that and other stories, from the question why Graves went for his revenge spree/why "the gang" never tried to contact him after his escape/release if the formerly FACTUAL betrayal by TF suddenly never occured (which, btw turns the entire "I forgive you"-scene bloody ridiculous) to actual criticisms of technicalities like the bloated and verbose writing (which, granted, became only worse with Targon) and the "showcase then forget"-approach to displaying character traits (looking at you, Piet). The issue is that whenever such criticisms occur, the response is either the increasingly hard to take serious excuse of "We're sorry you feel that way, we hope you like the next stuff", only to repeat the very same errors again (insert "Doing the same thing and expecting different result is madness"-reference here) or an empty "We hear you but disagree"-statement without any elaboration, followed by the "Just you wait, we have great things coming up"-promise you guys have been reciting for TWO YEARS. Which I guess you do in a PR-inspired attempt to "not offend anyone" but trust me on this one: A writer or writing staff that refuses to adopt repeated criticism into its work and at the same time does not show enough convicition in said work to elaborate on controversial writing decisions (and no, "spoilers" isn't a valid explanation, you can argue stylistic choices without giving away any long-term goals) does not give away the image "We want to be nice and friendly." It rather gives away the impression of "Sure, whatever, I'm still getting paid." Hell, there even was a [fan-made video-critique](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAXzVTqyutg) by a (now former) fan....which promptly got moved away from the Story-boards, because apparently a video ENTIRELY DEVOTED TO CRITIQUE STORY-WRITING does not fit in the Story&Art-forum. Lastly, let me explain that yes, Bilgewater was indeed the most well-received of the recent publications, because despite its flaws (which, in comparison to i.e. Targon, were still rather miniscule in their graveness *badum-tss*) did one thing that is pitifully absent in everything else: An attempt to merge the game with its lore.
: I believe this is where the disconnect is. We aren't pro or anti soloqueue. Anything is on the table to fix the current state of the queues, including bringing back soloqueue. We are anti long queue times at diamond and above, we are anti unfair match making which seems to be happening when full premades run into solo players again at diamond and above. We are pro team play, and pro being able to play with your friends (whether you have one friend, two, or three). I don't want to see us be dogmatic about dynamic queue either - I'm in favor of any solution that helps all these things happen.
To be honest, I share many of Keevalroy's worries and have done so for quite a time. Your behaviour STRONGLY resembles that of Blizzard in many, MANY aspects of the game and everything surrounding it and unless you are so caught up in modern "PR-Speech" that you truly are looking forward to penning such self-delusional pieces as Blizzard's "We found a better way than the (constantly dropping) subscriber numbers to measure Wow's financial success, but won't tell you what that is" I can only wholeheartedly recommend to take a good, factual and HONEST look at your own bloody company. As I said, there are plenty of fields concerning your game where some really self-crippling attitudes already settled in, from story & art, over "behavioural standards" to site-design (and if you don't believe that site design can kill a site, might I humbly suggest taking a look at mtv.com and gamefailers.com) to actual game-design, so I could probably go on for hours or even create an entire video-rant. And as Keevalroy pointed out, this has nothing to do with "some people just not liking new stuff", we have SEEN this behaviour and its consequences SEVERAL times before in this industry and ignoring those facts will not help you maintain your vision for ONE generation, let alone several. But the main point I want to address is this little nugget of yours: >We are pro team play, and pro being able to play with your friends (whether you have one friend, two, or three). And the WoW-comparisons are coming right back. Have you guys recently taken a look at the situation in the world's "leading subscription-based" MMORPG (that feels desperate enough to invest into misleading "Free to play*"-ad banners)? Particularly Raiding and the equally pushed eSports-"scene"? That game's latter day design was also dictated by vapid blog after vapid blog, filled with what the empty suit-section of every major gaming company considers "efficient speech" (as is your "we're anti unfair match making" just to bring an example). And while they've been using slightly different vocabulary, the message and the method of delivery are EXACTLY the same. And given the...ahem...."sweeping success" that is recent esport-"culture" and the all to possible consequences of that "culture" for the actual GAME, might I offer to you as GAME DESIGNERS the following, insane notion: No one cares an iota about what YOU are pro or anti for. WE are the fucking customers of the game. We are the suckers who spend countless hours of our FREE time sitting in front of our PCs to play your game and by extension give you our money. So if someone like me wishes i.e. to play some games alone, without falling into that Social Media-inspired "Friend list frenzy" and then getting effectively hamstringed for making that choice, is it at least comprehendible to you that I can't be bothered to care whether you are "pro being able to play with your friends"? Basic game design, guys, give me a functioning frame work to play your game and then get your %%%%ing fingers out of my gaming experience. I don't need you to sit on my shoulder and tell me that you THINK it MIGHT be better if I invited the people in my friendlist (which, let's be frank, is not the same as "being my friend"). If I don't want to play with those guys, let me fucking make that decision and let me make it without passive-aggressively wagging your finger at me. This is the equivalent of me buying a new TV from you, only for you guys following me home, telling me where I should put it, what settings I should use and which shows I should watch at what time and if I don't do that, well, then maybe I won't receive the Playboy-channel every night. And you can pen all the "It's just a friendly sugestions"-apology-pieces you like, at the end of the day, you're trying to stick your fingers into areas you really should have no business meddling with. I don't tell you how to play Deus Ex, even if you put all your early skill points in swimming, so kindly don't tell me how or with whom I should play your game. And given how you recently even REDUCED the already famished number of game modes in this 6-year-old game (and still no bloody recording-function) you just add more and more arguments to the pile to look for alternatives to LoL, rather than investing "generations" into your "vision". Edit: And since I can already see some guys coming with the "I ignore your arguments because you said "fuck" a few times", yes the tone of this post is "aggressive" and is intended to be so, because just like a child that repeatedly tries to touch a hot stove, I consider a verbal roasting to drive home a long-ignored point far more preferable than letting the oblivious toddler cripple his hand.
: I have already dodged twice today
Yeah, if only we had a pick mode that allowed us to see what we're getting into and then decide whether we'd go along with it or not...[oh wait](http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Team_Builder) "B-b-but wut about muh waiting times?!" Chuckles, between the god-delusion that is dynamic queue and the time accumulated by me dodging (or wishing I had dodged) such gems as jungle Yasuo, full adc Vel'koz, smite-mid lane Lee Sin and AP (!) Riven, you can take that silly excuse and get bent right along with it.
: Riot deletes thread telling them about there mistakes
I had 9 responses to posts in a thread I participated in waiting in my inbox, only to find out that the entire thread was gone. Did Riot recently hire former gametrailers-employees or what's with the constant thread-removal?
Sharjo (EUW)
: Not really because you didn't give the specifics as to who is actually updated.
That was pretty much the point. Is Ekko's lore considered current or not? Gnar? Quinn? Rek'sai? (Ignoring for a second how much actual lore those champions have). All champions who came after the retcon and have no mention of the IoW. Will they get an "update" or are they already considered up to date? We don't know. Riot left us completely adrift on such questions, especially concerning the world we play in. For more than two years now. So providing a link that basically says "Go figure it out yourself" seems a lot closer to the company message than some cherry picked examples of "more text, not necessarily more content."
Sharjo (EUW)
: Some links for the uninitiated and those who desire to read further: http://gameinfo.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/fiora/#champion-lore http://gameinfo.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/gangplank/#champion-lore http://gameinfo.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/graves/#champion-lore http://gameinfo.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/hecarim/#champion-lore http://gameinfo.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/illaoi/#champion-lore http://gameinfo.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/jhin/#champion-lore http://gameinfo.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/kalista/#champion-lore http://gameinfo.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/karthus/#champion-lore http://gameinfo.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/kindred/#champion-lore http://gameinfo.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/missfortune/#champion-lore http://gameinfo.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/mordekaiser/#champion-lore http://gameinfo.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/poppy/#champion-lore http://gameinfo.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/shen/#champion-lore http://gameinfo.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/thresh/#champion-lore http://gameinfo.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/twistedfate/#champion-lore
http://gameinfo.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/ Fixed
Sharjo (EUW)
: New Splash Art for Darius, Swain, Galactic Renekton and Viscero Xin Zhao
Bit disappointed with Darius. Not badly executed, mind you, most of the issues I had/have with some of the new "dynamic" splasharts are thankfully absent and I don't wonder what Darius is doing there. It's just that Darius' old splash conveyed that impression of a calm, relentless and unstoppable force. The way he looked up from that fresh corpse and gave you that "You're next"-look was awesome and I'd love it if we could maintain that calm menace over the "Raargh-I'm angry"-look he has going on there. Swain, I like. No perspective-zoom, no dash-pose just him sitting there, taking you apart with his eyes. Agree with the others here though that maybe he shouldn't invest his salary into that many hair products. Galactic Renekton however takes the cake in my book and I don't even play him. Although I do find it kinda ironic that Darius is going full rage and RENEKTON, of all people, has the solemn thinker-pose. xD
Elfezen (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Sharjo,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=pElYUbHh,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-04-10T18:43:10.012+0000) > > The way I like to think about it is that everything from 2013, 2014 and 2015 is pretty much 100% canon and anything before that varies depending on how far back you go; 2012 lore is more representative of actual canon than 2010 lore. > > The safe way of thinking about it is that anything from the start of 2014 onwards is canon because that's when Riot started changing their method of lore delivery, and was also probably the time when they finalised the decision internally to make the IoW non canon. > > That's how I think about it, but I dunno, could be wrong. It's again the same people. I think they belong to an organization that gets money by complaining every day about the new league lore for years, but i don't know how this works. Otherwise there is no explanation
Absolutely. It's not like we've been sitting on a lore for two years that is mostly defined by what it DOESN'T have (a map, a setting, established magic, any potential connection to the actual game), that we wittnessed sweeping reconstructions of established characters, mostly to their detriment by outright REMOVING established characteristics of them or that the writing became more and more bloated while offering less and less actual information, right? It's completely impossible that there are people out there who might actually care about the setting in LoL and are justifiably worried with the flawed direction it goes. And that even the most heartfelt and elaborate criticisms have been met - at BEST - with the answer "Trust us, we have something great planned, just you wait" A response we've gotten for TWO. EFFING. YEARS. And we still get it. But yes, the reasonable assumption is that people get paid for complaining, sure.
: A LoL Lore diatribe: Shadow & Fortune
How is a video addressing the state of the story of LoL not relevant to the STORY-boards?
: Aurelion Sol Login Theme = Marvel's Daredevil Theme?
https://youtu.be/SXKrsJZWqK0?t=45s Hell, google any recent Hans Zimmer composition and you're bound to meet the violin-corps going diddlediddle-diddlediddle-diddlediddle. If you're unlucky, you'll also get the occasional "PHWOAAAAMP!" in between. So yeah, given how recently everything that tries to convey "epicness" and has the budget to hire an orchestra takes that particular musical element, you're right about both, the themes being at times similar AND that Riot most certainly didn't copy Daredevil in particular. It's just everywhere atm. Doesn't make it bad, mind you, it's just currently overused .
: Both items have significant changes planned for the midseason patch.
Does one of those significant changes read "Learned our lesson with snowballing jungle items, Devourer now joins Malady and Heart of Gold in the great beyond"?
: I'm not sure if that map is canon anymore, in a discussion on the other post I got the impression that there was no map, and that the old one isnot canon, for example, bildgewater is nowhere near the shadow isles.
It isn't. The above linked map is old lore and no longer part of the "actual" Valoran.
: Well, the skins are now alternate universe versions of the characters, so the multiverse theory is technically canon (even if they don't focus of it)
I wouldn't really equate the existence of a joke- or "what if"-outfit with the establishment of an actual multiverse. I sincerely doubt that there will ever be a (serious) writing effort that lets Kassadin fight alongside "Definetly not Blitzcrank". Especially that quite some skins are related to real life concepts, events or holidays. Not that I want to give those guys any ideas....
: I wouldn't say that the site is slightly rubbish. It's very rubbish.
People say I'm too rude. I now try to ~~lie~~ be more polite.
: It's definitive as it is now. Things change as characters grow and stories happen. And yeah, Panth's bio and the rest of his intro hit some other peculiarities with the main web page. Something else that's in process of being fixed. It's a good job my hair grows back quickly.
Yeah, have to go with Hellioning here. I know comic books are a massive thing in the states but can we please avoid the narrative pitfalls epidemic to that genre? Like, turning death into a minor inconvenience, masquerading retcons as "surprising twists" and (please no) multiverse-theory?
: If it was something like 'Atreus' family grieved, for no past host of Pantheon ever returned, so they treated him like he was dead,' that'd be one thing. But the fact that the supposedly unbiased narrator felt the need to point out how dead he is led me to believe that he was dead. (And I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't see the Targon stuff anywhere, besides the Taric comic.)
Google "Explore Mount Targon". As I pointed out to Jaredan in another thread, the site design is slightly rubbish, so it's really hard if not impossible to find older content via the site itself, so your best approach really is taking the google-route.
: I feel like the lore team Doesn't want us to think about the Targonian Space Empire, and I refuse to listen about that. I would like them to explain it differently, because the aspects are the most confusing thing I have ever seen. I can't seem to grasp what they are going for, because I honest to god have no idea why they thought it was a good. I read the Talking to the Foundations team article on it, and they seemed to have missed the whole point of the original lore (along with comments that really bit them in the ass when they started talking about Leona and Pantheon.) I would like them to build up on it, make a new insitiue of war and a new League. They seem to what Runeterra to become as grimdark as WH40k. Taric seems to have gained to compassion that Linda had, but now has, at this point anyways "a dark, secret past." That makes him depressed and melancholy. While I never played old!Taric, he seemed like a nice guy and I always imagined him to be a bit more jovial and cheerful. Now he's dark and brooding. While I am interest in him, it's more out of Fear that he doesn't become another Linda. Let's hope that Lore team will listen, because if they keep the ship off-course, they gonna run right into a reef. (assuming they haven't gotten there already, of course.)
What adds even further confusion to the changes with the Targonians is that so far (and that includes Taric, as far as we know), tried to get away from alternate dimension et al. basically making the stories centered around Runeterra...and suddenly...galactic empire As for Taric..well, his new lore is basically Galio's current lore, minus the creator-part (Demacian-based guy fucks up his duty, now seeks redemption and new purpose), so I'm more concerned with what they will now do with Galio. And if they try to be more dark and...ugh, hate that expression..."mature" then I can't say I'm very confident for this writing team pulling that off. I mean yes, they tried a stab at "dark" themes with Gankplank but it honestly had that "trying too hard"-feeling to it. Like Dead Space tries too hard to be a horror game and thus just turns into an exceptionally gory action game. Or Until Dawn tries to be a narrative-based horror-experience and turned into a steaming pile of dung.
Ralanr (NA)
: I'm getting a paladin vibe from him honestly. Not a heavily armored one, but it's there.
Sooo...he used bubble+hearthstone?
: We haven't done just a few sentences for a new Champ in quite a while (though there has been some delays on some pieces of the written intros here and there). I'd love to know why you have that impression so we can do better for you in making the content more readily available. Is it due to issues with being able to view centrally housed content on the webpage? Or is it primarily from not having it contained within the client? Genuinely just trying to get feedback to help us as we think about doing a better job of making the introductory stories of our Champions more available. Also, I can assure you, the ChampUp and Promo teams have put together a good bit to reintroduce Taric.
If you want feedback on the Targon lore, I have an entire thread for you with quite a number of very passionate people who go into quite some elaborate detail about their stances: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/IEw4TrBF-my-problems-with-targon As for the impressions, the issue of course is the way you split stuff apart. The lore is PART of your game, so it is kinda mind-boggling why I wouldn't get the information about the characters when I have the game open. (That is, by the way, an issue not limited to the lore, there is a number of game-related information that is simply unavailable in the game client that really should be there, i.e. stat-scaling of abilities). Plus, I'm sorry to say, the site-design is...kinda horrible. Not quite mtv.com-level but we're getting there. Like, if for instance I came to the opening website as a lore-fan who returned after a hiatus and I heard about "this Bilgewater-thingy" or wanted to read up on the lore in general...hell, let's say it like it is, I'm screwed. There's no search function, you have no archive and if there is a PM-function I have yet to figure out where it is or how it works...but at least the Tribunal still has a non-functioning link at the bottom of the page, I guess. And again, this is not limited to lore. If I want to point out to other forum users that your company promised a non-draft-version of NCS, I have to do almost journalistic work to find the accomodating article. And if google does a better job at making your content accesible than your own site...well, there's really no nice way of putting that, is there?
: My problems with Targon
@Greenlore Meh, I don't consider the technical limitations of this board as an obstacle. As long as there are still ideas worth bringing across, I have no issue with continuing a discussion. You're right that the Kalista-trailer didn't give us much but that right there is exactly the problem: Due to either laziness or short-sighted planning they don't include information that, in this case, is necessary to convey the character's consistency. An yes, I can fill in the blanks Riot left. In fact, I recently rewrote an entire passage of Pantheon's new lore as per request of another forum-user, so my own creativity is not the issue. That would be the fact that I NEED to fill in blanks to make sense of Riot's story You're also right about the Targonians being way too powerful for their story, that's exactly my point. The IoW at least would have the archmages as a powerful counter force. But with or without the IoW, the point is that the Targonians have no business being a space empire. It adds exactly nothing to their story and in fact only adds further questions and logic holes in their lore that are, quite frankly unneccesary. It would take me literally 5 minutes to turn the Targonians into a people of powerful sorcerers exclusive to the world of Runeterra, thus eliminating the questions this "Space Empire" brings up and I would have to change nothing about the rework to do so. And to clarify, I'm not expecting Riot to retcon the retcon. The damage is done and backpaddling helps nobody. I brought up the old setting and factions as a demonstration for the fact that for all the claims of restrictiveness, the IoW-Runeterra could have easily hosted almost all the characters and stories and still tell a concise, continuing story in a living, thriving world. THUS, the new, more liberal setting should make that feat even EASIER, right? And yet, Riot flaunders embarrasingly were ONE guy, using the more restrictive setup succeeds. And therein lies the crux with all this. We can sit here all year, hold hands, sing kumbaya and "agree to disagree" but Riot is currently on a course set for disaster. Not because of my tastes - as I've said in another thread, I have way lower expectations towards Riot than I have i.e. for my own writings - but because I have SEEN this kind of development several times before. And until a SIGNIFICANT portion of lore-fans refuse to be honest about those shortcomings, because they're afraid to hurt someone's feelings, Riot will of course continue down this road. The way they left Freljord hanging unfinished, twisted Shurima, whitewashed Bilgewater and outright SAVAGED Targon, they will continue to do that with everything to come. And I rather at least TRY to steer the ship back on course than sit there with the rest of the shipwrecked and wonder "where things went wrong". I don't want Jaredan to pull a Blizzard and tell the fans that they "shouldn't focus on the time travel aspect" in a plot where time travel is the fucking PREMISE. (*cough* warlords of draenor *cough*)
GreenLore (EUW)
: *sigh* seriously you need to stop seeing the world in black&white,because it looks like you think that I'm trying to whitewash what they did. I completely agree that the way riot handled the retcon was really bad.And that it is terrible that lots of champs are still stuck with their short lores. I also agree with you with several of your other points(like Gnars lore telling us more about rengar than gnar,the fact that we still have no world map,etc.) I just don't like it if people start throwing tantrums and start to accuse others of things that are flat out not true. For example you yourself say we have no idea how kalista works,when we do actually have one as her short lore alone already says: >"Kalista is the undying spirit of vengeance, an armored nightmare summoned from the Shadow Isles to hunt deceivers and traitors. The betrayed may cry out in blood to be avenged, but Kalista only answers those whose cause she deems worthy of her skills." So unless the puppykicking was an act of betrayal and kalista deems the girl worthy(which i really doubt),she would not answer the call of the little girl. In another post in this thread(one that was even upvoted),someone actually accused riot of retconning {{champion:22}} {{champion:113}} and {{champion:23}} into freljord champs,claiming that the freljord never existed before the freljord event,which is obviously wrong,if you read the JoJ,Ashes/Sejuanis old lore or just looked at the map... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are right, and creative limitations can in fact cripple a story: Of course limitations can be crippling,I mean lets take a ridiculous example here and say they establish that magic is obly able to turn pizza into kittens in their universe. Could they still make a serious story that involves any kind of magic?No,because that would be impossible with an ability like this... And in the end pretty much everything that gets introduced in a story acts as some sort of limitation. Like Bilgewater can't have a good relation with the shadow isles anymore,Aurelions sole existence pretty much limits the possible things that could threaten the world,because everything that gets into aurelions way and that is not under the protection of targon is likely not powerful enough to survive his wrath,etc. Though I agree that riot really needs to establish some basic rules in the lore,like what exactly defines a spirit(and where is the difference between a spirit and a demon),what are the targonians exactly,etc.
>I think where they were trying to go with that is have the crown use Sol's own powers against him to kill stars (complete conjecture, I know) You'd think so, right? I certainly did. But the passage in Sol's story actually rather implies that he has nothing to do with the destruction. In fact, I kinda have to alter my original statement, since we don't even know if the crown itself destroys stars or whether it just sends out a signal to some other, randomly star destroying apparatus. But either way, they apparently can just blow up stars....but conquering Runeterra or even just subdueing the people of Targon and equip them with decent weaponry...impossibiru. The really funny thing though? Even IF they used his own powers for that...given that this would mean they can actively control him, why would they then bother with the hostage shit? Now that I think about it...why did they bother with Pantheon's voice command if they apparently can just insert code into his craniumaaaaaaah! ... Yeah, the comic is great. ^^
Vesarixx (NA)
: If Tarics hair and cape aren't constantly blowing in the wind then they might as well not even rework him.
GreenLore (EUW)
: *sigh* seriously you need to stop seeing the world in black&white,because it looks like you think that I'm trying to whitewash what they did. I completely agree that the way riot handled the retcon was really bad.And that it is terrible that lots of champs are still stuck with their short lores. I also agree with you with several of your other points(like Gnars lore telling us more about rengar than gnar,the fact that we still have no world map,etc.) I just don't like it if people start throwing tantrums and start to accuse others of things that are flat out not true. For example you yourself say we have no idea how kalista works,when we do actually have one as her short lore alone already says: >"Kalista is the undying spirit of vengeance, an armored nightmare summoned from the Shadow Isles to hunt deceivers and traitors. The betrayed may cry out in blood to be avenged, but Kalista only answers those whose cause she deems worthy of her skills." So unless the puppykicking was an act of betrayal and kalista deems the girl worthy(which i really doubt),she would not answer the call of the little girl. In another post in this thread(one that was even upvoted),someone actually accused riot of retconning {{champion:22}} {{champion:113}} and {{champion:23}} into freljord champs,claiming that the freljord never existed before the freljord event,which is obviously wrong,if you read the JoJ,Ashes/Sejuanis old lore or just looked at the map... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are right, and creative limitations can in fact cripple a story: Of course limitations can be crippling,I mean lets take a ridiculous example here and say they establish that magic is obly able to turn pizza into kittens in their universe. Could they still make a serious story that involves any kind of magic?No,because that would be impossible with an ability like this... And in the end pretty much everything that gets introduced in a story acts as some sort of limitation. Like Bilgewater can't have a good relation with the shadow isles anymore,Aurelions sole existence pretty much limits the possible things that could threaten the world,because everything that gets into aurelions way and that is not under the protection of targon is likely not powerful enough to survive his wrath,etc. Though I agree that riot really needs to establish some basic rules in the lore,like what exactly defines a spirit(and where is the difference between a spirit and a demon),what are the targonians exactly,etc.
>seriously you need to stop seeing the world in black&white,because it looks like you think that I'm trying to whitewash what they did. And you guys need to stop with the copy-paste responses and baseless claims. Just makes you look silly. And no, I'm not accusing you of whitewashing anything. I'm trying to tell you that for all your THEORIES about Riot's actions serving to flesh out the story, make the setting more appropriate for a long-lasting narrative and deepening the characters, the actual FACTS and results of their work over the past two years do NOT support that idea and pretending otherwise will ultimately kick yourself, as a fan of the lore, in the ass, as is evidenced by pretty much any other long-running franchise that developed a blindly devoted fanbase. Hell, look at my first two responses to Hildebrand in this thread, where I actually showcase that despite having more text, the new lore for at least Diana took AWAY from the actual character, rather than adding to it, turning a curious, learned and capable woman, made avenger through betrayal into a bratty outsider who's every step towards ascension was lead and even controlled by forces out of her own control. My point, again, is very simply that what we can see before us does not support the idea that they put all that much thought into their great, improved rework. >For example you yourself say we have no idea how kalista works,when we do actually have one as her short lore alone already says: >So unless the puppykicking was an act of betrayal and kalista deems the girl worthy(which i really doubt),she would not answer the call of the little girl. Oh I'm aware. [But then we see her cinematic trailer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnT8jVCyh_E) in which she gets summoned by some random scrawny bastard who gets stabbed by some random fat bastard, who she murders with no resistance and utter ease. So if that qualifies as "worthy of her skills", then what's the lower threshold of her standards? Or does she occasionally accept the random babysitting-job when she's bored? Again, we have the CLAIM of her only tending to properly significant and challenging tasks but the one time we actually see her do her job, she skewers a guy who pisses himself at the mere sight of her. So why wouldn't I think that any schmuck with a grudge and a disregard for his own soul could hire her? And by the way, giving up your soul to screw over one fat guy....really not a good deal. >In another post in this thread(one that was even upvoted),someone actually accused riot of retconning and into freljord champs,claiming that the freljord never existed before the freljord event,which is obviously wrong,if you read the JoJ,Ashes/Sejuanis old lore or just looked at the map... Which is patently silly if that's what he/she wrote. Also has nothing to do with very valid and demonstrably issues in the writing. >Of course limitations can be crippling,I mean lets take a ridiculous example here and say they establish that magic is obly able to turn pizza into kittens in their universe. Could they still make a serious story that involves any kind of magic?No,because that would be impossible with an ability like this... Yyeah, nice example...I guess...but once more: Theory and practice. I said that I know of no actual case of this happening, so bringing up a made-up example when I offer actually existing ones is not that effective, I'm afraid to say. Still, let it not be said that I'd just easily dismiss such an example. So here's the issue: You seem to imply that creative limitations just pop into existence, when in fact, they're put in place by the very person who writes the story. So the important question isn't whether you COULD write a serious story with that framework, but WHY you would try to write something serious if you set up such a ridiculous premise. Kinda hard to feel sympathy for someone who shoots himself in the foot before participating in a race. Edit: Also, the implication that the old lore would have hindered a sincere story the way your kitty-pizza example does is incredibly dishonest when I just provided you with a long-running, fan-driven game mode that does exactly that with the supposedly limiting lore. >Aurelions sole existence pretty much limits the possible things that could threaten the world,because everything that gets into aurelions way and that is not under the protection of targon is likely not powerful enough to survive his wrath,etc. And just as with Kalista...we have a claim and then...the facts. I see your argument here: Aurelion Sol is pretty much in the absolute top tier in terms of lore-based power. In fact, that's why I've been critical of him being a playable character from the moment his powers were hinted at. So, as you say, you'd think that he'd be a limitation as to what threats are possible, right? That is until we realize that the Targonians, upon barely being out of their crib, constructed an item that could enslave this oh-so powerful being, the first and only one of his kind by the way, so I have no idea how they could even be remotely certain this could work, which also - wait for it - CAN DESTROY PLANETS across the universe AT WILL. A mortal race. Constructs an ITEM (not an actual weapon, a fucking TRINKET) that can mind-control a being who's physiology utterly eludes them and instantly obliterates planetary bodies over lightyears of distance whenever Sol acts up. Screw Sol, THESE guys are insanely powerful. Even the bloody Death Star needed energy, required a long ass charge-up and needed to be in vicinity of the planet it was supposed to destroy. And still Sol speaks of them with utter contempt and considers them minor life forms. Really? Because I'd consider that a pretty amazing feat.
GreenLore (EUW)
: If you disagree with riots decision about the retcon,then that is fine,it is your opinion and I have no problem with that,I myself think the retcon was handled badly. However you just saw me disagreeing with your senseless bashing of the retcon and started to write all your thoughts about why you dislike the retcon,despite the fact that,that wasn't my point. What I said is that riot has no reason for another retcon. But insead of telling me why they would even need a second retcon,you start to rant about how you disagree with their decision of the retcon and make snarky comments. And yes,you are right that limits are needed to make a good story,but they have to be reasonable and fitting for the type of story the author wants to tell,otherwise the limit starts to cripple the story. Riot decided the IoW was an unreasonable limit for the storys they wanted to tell and regardless if you agree or disagree with their decision you should stay rational,but insteady you act like riot rolls a 100-sided dice everyday to decide if they retcon the lore again or not. Also its funny that you accuse me of not caring about what others write,when you yourself are in complete disregard of everyone who is ok with the retcon or disagrees with you.
>And yes,you are right that limits are needed to make a good story,but they have to be reasonable and fitting for the type of story the author wants to tell,otherwise the limit starts to cripple the story. I'd like to see one example for that in any form of fiction. So far, I've seen only an increasingly liberal approach to story limitations fucking up established settings, from the infamous ruination of the Ultima-franchise, over the major buttfuckery of Star Wars with the Midichlorian-nonsense to whatever unholy mess TES Online did to Tamriel. And the great thing with LoL? We don't even have to delve into "What if"-territory when wondering whether the old setting could be used for an ongoing setting - we have that in the form of a fan-run project called factions, which currently is setting up it's EIGHTH arc. But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are right, and creative limitations can in fact cripple a story: The issue is they have established NONE. They removed the IoW two years ago (the time it takes the earth to circumvent the sun...twice! Just to visualize what that means) and have delivered on NOTHING concerning the base setting. We have no map, we have no idea about political relations, a huge part of the champions still run around with lore that is impossible under the new setup and since they repeatedly radically rewrite characters and entire places to their very core (The Targonians basically being aliens) despite their claim to adhere to the core of the original stories, even those characters WITH a compatible lore are basically up in the air. And we've seen what Riot does with their "creative freedom": Nothing. We know little to nothing how Kalista operates (Can a 12-year old hire her to assassinate a class-mate who kicked his puppy?), Rek'sai is just some beast, Gnar's lore text told us more about effing RENGAR than Gnar, Ekko has no personality, Bard...just does...stuff...the list goes on and on. And even pre-retcon champions aren't safe, with Tristana's character and backstory being basically obliterated and Twisted Fate having never betrayed his comrade. In summary: After two years time and countless apology-pieces, the professional writing-STAFF of Riot has nothing to show for themselves other than some flashy concepts that wow you on their first impression but ultimately have little to no substance and not even a base-line. Hell, they even said that summoners, despite earlier statements that they were gone together with the IoW, still exist in this new Runeterra...but they give no explanation what they are or do, so once again, we're stuck with hollow concepts and the promise of some ultimate "end-goal" that, let's be honest here, can NEVER live up to the build-up Riot is promising. And I am not exaggerating when I say that I **alone**, armed with nothing but MS Word could've rewritten the basic background of EVERY champion in the game so far, set up a game world, the rules of magic and political relationships and the major conflicts in this world in the same time that Riot's entire writing TEAM - with all the resources they have - gave us some short stories of STRONGLY varying quality that went nowhere and mean basically nothing because we don't know what any of the actions taken in those stories will cause or where they even fucking are in relationship to anyone else. Now with this massive, two-year old construction site in front of you...can you seriously blame people for thinking that Riot at best is inept and at worst just doesn't give a crap? And remember, no one asked them for this or even demands that they come out with some world-sweeping epic. Hell, after reading the A. Sol-page I'd pay them to keep it simple, thank you very much. It is THEIR project. THEY chose to go down that road and THEY decide they have to keep up their facade of a great plan, which quite frankly, no one is impressed by. If they would just give us a map and a rough "These are the rules of the world we build here", that would be more than enough. Or hell, just tell us if the fucking RIFT actually exists.
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Headbiter

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