: You can often guess what class a player mains by knowing what class they hate
That doesn't need to be something bad does it?
: i dont like how you classified the champs, but i voted anyway.
> [{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uwEvAKdv,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-10-30T14:58:40.902+0000) > > i dont like how you classified the champs, but i voted anyway. I used the [official classification system](http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Champion_classes) and tried to give examples that are rather clear and not being discussed much. I left away "Artillery" as they are a super minority and "specialists" as they don't make sense for such a poll. Furthermore I did not differentiate between "Vanguards" and "Wardens" due to being limited to 10 vote options and because I think they are the most forgiving to not be differentiated further.
Rioter Comments
Rexxiee (NA)
: Reverting LB was a huge mistake
So we all finally do agree that assassins are the most hated class in league of legends?
: My 2 cents: (P) Inner Flame: Karma gains 0.3 − 1.3 (based on level) bonus ability power for every 1% missing health. (Q): Karma sends forth a wave of hidden blades from her fans, dealing magic damage to all enemies in a cone in front of her. Mantra: Heavenly Wave also heals Karma and her allies in the cone. (W): Karma creates a tether between herself and a target ally or a target enemy for up to 5 seconds, breaking if the target becomes stealthed. Affected allies gain bonus movement speed while affected enemies are Slow icon slowed and take magic damage. Any champion, whether ally or enemy, who walks through the tether is granted the same movement speed modifier for 3 seconds. Mantra: Spirit Bond grants twice its movement speed modifier. (E): Karma shields herself or the target ally for 5 seconds. Mantra: Soul Shield sends forth a burst of energy, dealing magic damage to enemy units around her target. (R) Karma empowers her next ability to grant it an additional effect. Karma stores a Mantra charge every few seconds, up to a maximum of 2 stored at once. Karma begins with one rank in Mantra and she innately increases it at levels 7 and 13
> [{quoted}](name=7thHeaven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rcAAeBPQ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-10-28T05:29:06.581+0000) > > My 2 cents: > > (P) Inner Flame: > Karma gains 0.3 − 1.3 (based on level) bonus ability power for every 1% missing health. > > (Q): Karma sends forth a wave of hidden blades from her fans, dealing magic damage to all enemies in a cone in front of her. > Mantra: Heavenly Wave also heals Karma and her allies in the cone. > > (W): Karma creates a tether between herself and a target ally or a target enemy for up to 5 seconds, breaking if the target becomes stealthed. Affected allies gain bonus movement speed while affected enemies are Slow icon slowed and take magic damage. > Any champion, whether ally or enemy, who walks through the tether is granted the same movement speed modifier for 3 seconds. > Mantra: Spirit Bond grants twice its movement speed modifier. > > (E): Karma shields herself or the target ally for 5 seconds. > Mantra: Soul Shield sends forth a burst of energy, dealing magic damage to enemy units around her target. > > (R) Karma empowers her next ability to grant it an additional effect. Karma stores a Mantra charge every few seconds, up to a maximum of 2 stored at once. > Karma begins with one rank in Mantra and she innately increases it at levels 7 and 13 You could have just said: "completely revert any updates to her pre-3.5 gameplay".
: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/AjFssB0Z-revertrework-concept-for-karma https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/NsKaWzBI-karma-update-ideas I also had the idea to rework her W to make it attach to two champions rather than On Karma and one other champion. So you could tether two enemies together or two allies, or tether Karma herself to someone in order to have more control over their positioning and damage.
> [{quoted}](name=jocomotion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rcAAeBPQ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-10-27T23:29:12.125+0000) > > https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/AjFssB0Z-revertrework-concept-for-karma > > https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/NsKaWzBI-karma-update-ideas > > I also had the idea to rework her W to make it attach to two champions rather than On Karma and one other champion. So you could tether two enemies together or two allies, or tether Karma herself to someone in order to have more control over their positioning and damage. Do you have a favorite for me to post?
: Yeah, erm, I really like what you are trying to do here, but the changes are already softlocked. NeuroCat is leaving League in a few weeks already (still working for Riot, no worries). There is no chance we are still able to influence greatly what is about to come. Either way, if you are interested in my reworks, here are my two most successful ones (plus one extra): __________________________ __________________________ [Twin Dragon Rework (VGU)](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/oxNbhh7j-a-detailed-post-on-karma-and-her-twin-dragons) _The idea was to flesh out Karma's visual and gameplay identity with the twin dragons found in the concept art of her rework and even in the game files._ **P:** Karma's spells are affected by Ouro and Boros alternatingly, gaining either offensive or defensive qualities. Mantra applies both effects. She passively gains magic damage on hit or bonus resistances depending on the active dragon. **Q:** Hitting enemies heals the closest ally OR deals bonus damage based on their kills. Slow removed. **RQ:** Ground targeted now, applies all effects, detonates quicker. Slow removed. **W:** Targeted buff/debuff that increases/reduces damage on ally/enemy. Ouro heals nearby allies, Boros damages nearby allies based on damage to target. **RW:** Combined effects with no cap. **E:** Ouro grants speedbuff, Boros creates small shieldbomb. **RE:** Increases initial shield and explosion radius. Speeds up hit allies. **R:** Resets on nearby ally death. __________________________ __________________________ [Small Scale Rework (GU)](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/RHn0ZE62-quick-fix-for-karma) _This tried to use as little change as possible to fix Karma's issues in a reasonable manner._ **P:** Added cap per spell. Also added option for triggering passive by aiding allies. **Q:** Unchanged **RQ:** Ground targeted now. **W:** Targetting an ally increases their resistances. **RW:** Heal changed to not scale with tankstats anymore. Bonus damage reintroduced. Bonus root removed. Targetting allies heals them like Karma. **E:** Unchanged **RE:** Shieldbomb reintroduced. Shield now slightly scales with enemies hit. **R:** Unchanged __________________________ __________________________ [Double Mantra Rework(GU)](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/jpxfF5r0-a-modern-karma-with-two-mantra-charges) _This was one of my first attempts and tried to imagine modern Karma with mantra charges._ **P** - Karma gains bonus AP based on the %hp she (and her allies) lost in the last 5s. **R** - Karma stores up to 1/2/2/3 stacks of Mantra. Using one charge adds another aspect to the spell. Two charges create an ultimate level of the spell. **Q** - Unchanged. **RQ** - Targeted AoE that also heals allies in the area. **RRQ** - Increases size and applies the same effect again after a short delay. **W** - Links a target to someone of the same team (champions have priority). Enemies receive damage over time and are rooted if they stay in range. They also receive a part of the damage and all the slows their partner suffers. Allies gain resistances as long as the bond persists. They also receive half of the speeds, heals and shields their parnter receives. **RW** - Enemies: shorter tether range. Breaking the tether stuns both targets. Allies: Increases tether range and duration. Fully transfers all shields/heals/movespeed. **RRW** - Links all possible targets to the main target. **E** - Shields and speeds target ally. If the target is tethered, the buffs last until the tether breaks. **RE** - Increases the shield value and damages enemies around the target. **RRE** - The range of the explosion is increased. If the target was a champion, shielding and damage is increased if it is low health. The first two I linked to NC when she took charge of the work and I took the time to [welcome](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/rnvO7uGw-an-open-welcome-letter-to-riotneurocat-as-the-person-working-on-karma) her. So this is probably only interesting to the other interested Karma mains/reworkers out there. I am personally not really in favour of any of those exact reworks anymore, but they have historic value to me and show my thought process. Duality, battlemage, shieldbomb and unifying the community are strong goals of mine.
If it's ok for you I'd repost the second version in the OP because it's the closest to what we currently have and requires the least testing I think.
: Might be a typo. It honestly would make sense if % was written in the spot of the s.
> [{quoted}](name=Balterein,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=TkiBEVYV,comment-id=009400000001,timestamp=2018-10-28T03:22:49.399+0000) > > Might be a typo. It honestly would make sense if % was written in the spot of the s. Could be, but without correction of NeuroCat I'd still have to assume it's full durations even though the % reduction does make more sense.
: Hi all, I'm glad there are a lot of people really excited about the changes, but I think that I've heard two main negative sentiments crop up. I'll try to address them as best I can.     #\#1 - Karma's Ally W is broken with certain champs or will be super strong in coordinated play, forcing us to nerf her/balance her around her new W First, the new Ally-W is a strong effect. We wanted to give Karma a tool which has really great strengths when used effectively - experienced Karma players should be able to use this to the best of its abilities. However, we did very intentionally take a number of steps to try to mitigate these risk factors. 1. We gave Karma her _Souls Alight_ passive to help Karma understand when its valuable for her to use W without having to be on voice comms. Additionally, the flat Cooldown Reduction is applied fairly flexibly, opening up the number of picks that its useful with. We've noticed it feels great with Tanks, Mages, other Supports, ADCs with long cooldowns or mana hungry ADCs, so we're hoping that there are a lot of different viable targets and team compositions that feel nice with Karma. 2. The cooldown reduction applied has a stipulation to prevent outright abuse cases of back-to-back spellcasts (chain hard CC). Karma's W attempts to apply CDR every quarter second, but it will not reduce an ability's remaining cooldown to a point of coming off cooldown within 3s of the last time it was cast. This ensures a "3s buffer" between spellcasts affected by Karma's W. We believe this mitigates most of the straight up abuse cases associated with Karma's W. We understand that there's still some risk here, and will be actively monitoring anything that gets too out of control.     #\#2 - These changes feel like they are shoving Karma strictly into the support role/as a solo-lane Karma player, I feel underserved by these changes This is fair feedback. The biggest, coolest change is definitely the Ally-cast W, which primarily serves to help your allies. I'd argue that Allycast-W has a lot of applications for solo lane Karma, whether that's jungle ganks or teamfights. However, I think something I failed to deliver was the scope of buffs and tuning changes we're planning with these changes (since I did not include numbers). So I'll preview the tuning changes below. **Please keep in mind that these are not final numbers - we may change these drastically depending on initial balance reads from the PBE**: * Base Stats * Move Speed: 335 >>> 330 * HP Regen: 5.5 (+0.55/lvl) >>> 7 (+0.6/lvl) * Armor: 26 >>> 30 * Passive - Gathering Fire * Kindled Spirit * Cooldown reduced on Mantra from damage dealt: 2/3/4 (levels 1/7/13) >>> 3/4/5/6 (ult ranks) * No longer halved on auto-attacks * Now works against large monsters * Now operates on a charge system * Karma gains 1 charge per 7 seconds, to a cap of 3 charges * [NEW] Souls Alight * Karma can see an indicator for her ally's total basic spell cooldowns * Q - Inner Flame * Mantra - Soulflare * Bonus Damage: 25/75/125/175 (+30% AP) >>> 35/105/175/245 (+45% AP) * Detonation Damage: 35/140/245/350 (+60% AP) >>> 25/110/195/280 (+45% AP) * W - Spirit Bond * Cooldown: 12 >>> 16 * Mana: 50-70 >>> 70 * Damage per tick: 30/55/80/105/130 (+45% AP) >>> 50/75/100/125/150 (+60% AP) * Mantra - Renewal * Healing (per tick): 20% (+0.01% AP) of missing health >>> 15% of missing health + 25% AP * [NEW] Ally Cast: * Reduces an ally's basic ability cooldowns by up to 10s total over the bond duration (2s). * Mantra - Harmony * Plus 20/30/40/50s cooldown reduction. Returns 20% of Max Mana to the ally. * E - Inspire * Shield: 70/95/120/145/170 (+50% AP) >>> 75/100/125/150/175 (+55% AP) * Move Speed Bonus: 40/45/50/55/60% >>> 35/40/45/50/55% * Mantra - Defiance * Shared Shield Percent: 30% >>> 75%, split across all shared targets * Shared Movespeed Percent: 100% >>> 75%, split across all shared targets We believe that solo lane Karma is properly served by the base stat changes, adjustments to AP ratios, and relative strengths of the Enemy-W cast as a alternative option, but we will definitely see how these land and make sure that solo lane Karma players feel like they can play their champion effectively. However, I will reaffirm that proper choice of which cast of W to use in a given situation is an important skill for Karma in any lane - good Karma players will exercise the proper decisionmaking, both through the modal W cast and Mantra choice, her signature spell.
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/rcAAeBPQ-karma-collect-your-gameplay-ideas-and-participate-in-the-rework-process If you have a free minute you can take a quick look just to know what's going on (if it's going on)
InTheory (EUW)
: [KARMA] Collect your gameplay ideas and participate in the rework process
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/EdM8ndHZ-karma-gameplay-rework-by-intheory TLDR: [P] revolves around the root that originally came from W. [Q] is reworked to reach backlines better. [W] can be cast on allies. Shield can be shared with bound allies. [E] mass shielding removed. Shield bomb added. [R] old passive is not on R.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Hi all, I'm glad there are a lot of people really excited about the changes, but I think that I've heard two main negative sentiments crop up. I'll try to address them as best I can.     #\#1 - Karma's Ally W is broken with certain champs or will be super strong in coordinated play, forcing us to nerf her/balance her around her new W First, the new Ally-W is a strong effect. We wanted to give Karma a tool which has really great strengths when used effectively - experienced Karma players should be able to use this to the best of its abilities. However, we did very intentionally take a number of steps to try to mitigate these risk factors. 1. We gave Karma her _Souls Alight_ passive to help Karma understand when its valuable for her to use W without having to be on voice comms. Additionally, the flat Cooldown Reduction is applied fairly flexibly, opening up the number of picks that its useful with. We've noticed it feels great with Tanks, Mages, other Supports, ADCs with long cooldowns or mana hungry ADCs, so we're hoping that there are a lot of different viable targets and team compositions that feel nice with Karma. 2. The cooldown reduction applied has a stipulation to prevent outright abuse cases of back-to-back spellcasts (chain hard CC). Karma's W attempts to apply CDR every quarter second, but it will not reduce an ability's remaining cooldown to a point of coming off cooldown within 3s of the last time it was cast. This ensures a "3s buffer" between spellcasts affected by Karma's W. We believe this mitigates most of the straight up abuse cases associated with Karma's W. We understand that there's still some risk here, and will be actively monitoring anything that gets too out of control.     #\#2 - These changes feel like they are shoving Karma strictly into the support role/as a solo-lane Karma player, I feel underserved by these changes This is fair feedback. The biggest, coolest change is definitely the Ally-cast W, which primarily serves to help your allies. I'd argue that Allycast-W has a lot of applications for solo lane Karma, whether that's jungle ganks or teamfights. However, I think something I failed to deliver was the scope of buffs and tuning changes we're planning with these changes (since I did not include numbers). So I'll preview the tuning changes below. **Please keep in mind that these are not final numbers - we may change these drastically depending on initial balance reads from the PBE**: * Base Stats * Move Speed: 335 >>> 330 * HP Regen: 5.5 (+0.55/lvl) >>> 7 (+0.6/lvl) * Armor: 26 >>> 30 * Passive - Gathering Fire * Kindled Spirit * Cooldown reduced on Mantra from damage dealt: 2/3/4 (levels 1/7/13) >>> 3/4/5/6 (ult ranks) * No longer halved on auto-attacks * Now works against large monsters * Now operates on a charge system * Karma gains 1 charge per 7 seconds, to a cap of 3 charges * [NEW] Souls Alight * Karma can see an indicator for her ally's total basic spell cooldowns * Q - Inner Flame * Mantra - Soulflare * Bonus Damage: 25/75/125/175 (+30% AP) >>> 35/105/175/245 (+45% AP) * Detonation Damage: 35/140/245/350 (+60% AP) >>> 25/110/195/280 (+45% AP) * W - Spirit Bond * Cooldown: 12 >>> 16 * Mana: 50-70 >>> 70 * Damage per tick: 30/55/80/105/130 (+45% AP) >>> 50/75/100/125/150 (+60% AP) * Mantra - Renewal * Healing (per tick): 20% (+0.01% AP) of missing health >>> 15% of missing health + 25% AP * [NEW] Ally Cast: * Reduces an ally's basic ability cooldowns by up to 10s total over the bond duration (2s). * Mantra - Harmony * Plus 20/30/40/50s cooldown reduction. Returns 20% of Max Mana to the ally. * E - Inspire * Shield: 70/95/120/145/170 (+50% AP) >>> 75/100/125/150/175 (+55% AP) * Move Speed Bonus: 40/45/50/55/60% >>> 35/40/45/50/55% * Mantra - Defiance * Shared Shield Percent: 30% >>> 75%, split across all shared targets * Shared Movespeed Percent: 100% >>> 75%, split across all shared targets We believe that solo lane Karma is properly served by the base stat changes, adjustments to AP ratios, and relative strengths of the Enemy-W cast as a alternative option, but we will definitely see how these land and make sure that solo lane Karma players feel like they can play their champion effectively. However, I will reaffirm that proper choice of which cast of W to use in a given situation is an important skill for Karma in any lane - good Karma players will exercise the proper decisionmaking, both through the modal W cast and Mantra choice, her signature spell.
Just wanted to add a few things (on top of my other comment) as a sidenote now that I know the numbers for the time being, the nerfs to her mass shield really feel like: You don't get the shield bomb AND you don't get a mass shield - but you get a reworked W. \+ How large do you rate the part her new W takes from her power budget compared to before? \+ Did you discuss a version that I proposed a long time ago in the process of working on Karma (tldr: W cast on ally would allow you to give the full shield to your bound ally (when self shielding) and vice versa + have the shield deal damage a bound opponents when self shielding)? These changes would include the shieldbomb version but that's obviously off the table.
: If it's split across the 3 basic abilities then that is a completely confusing way of doing that, rather than "5s off of each ability". And my sentiments exactly, if it's only basic abilities and even if it's split across the 3 abilities that seems rather excessive to the point of unnecessary. I'd much rather have the mana give back scale with levels if that's the case. W should reduce on basic abilities RW should reduce basic abilities PLUS a set special number off of ults. eg: [NEW] Ally Cast: Reduces an ally's basic ability cooldowns by up to 10s total over the bond duration (2s). * Mantra - Harmony -Reduces an ally's basic ability cooldowns by up to 10s and 10/15/20/25s off of their ultimate. Returns 20% of Max Mana to the ally.
Tbh I think it'd be unbalanceable to reduce ultimate cooldowns with W or RW. From what I read I'd suspect that standard W reduced all basic abilities by X and that this is the best version in terms of clarity and a point less you have to communicate with the potential ally. E.g. the easiest way to determine what ability is being reduced would be "reduce the last basic ability used" which would screw most synergy with other champions especially scuh that have at least one low CD ability. The point still stands that there's not much gained form reducing a basic ability by 60 seconds when you usually reduce like 12 seconds. Hard to determine how much of her powerbudget that takes but elsewhere there's really not much gain from leveling W, at leats in terms of ally WR cast. Sidenote: I'd be interesting to know if that ally W procs Aery.
: Hi all, I'm glad there are a lot of people really excited about the changes, but I think that I've heard two main negative sentiments crop up. I'll try to address them as best I can.     #\#1 - Karma's Ally W is broken with certain champs or will be super strong in coordinated play, forcing us to nerf her/balance her around her new W First, the new Ally-W is a strong effect. We wanted to give Karma a tool which has really great strengths when used effectively - experienced Karma players should be able to use this to the best of its abilities. However, we did very intentionally take a number of steps to try to mitigate these risk factors. 1. We gave Karma her _Souls Alight_ passive to help Karma understand when its valuable for her to use W without having to be on voice comms. Additionally, the flat Cooldown Reduction is applied fairly flexibly, opening up the number of picks that its useful with. We've noticed it feels great with Tanks, Mages, other Supports, ADCs with long cooldowns or mana hungry ADCs, so we're hoping that there are a lot of different viable targets and team compositions that feel nice with Karma. 2. The cooldown reduction applied has a stipulation to prevent outright abuse cases of back-to-back spellcasts (chain hard CC). Karma's W attempts to apply CDR every quarter second, but it will not reduce an ability's remaining cooldown to a point of coming off cooldown within 3s of the last time it was cast. This ensures a "3s buffer" between spellcasts affected by Karma's W. We believe this mitigates most of the straight up abuse cases associated with Karma's W. We understand that there's still some risk here, and will be actively monitoring anything that gets too out of control.     #\#2 - These changes feel like they are shoving Karma strictly into the support role/as a solo-lane Karma player, I feel underserved by these changes This is fair feedback. The biggest, coolest change is definitely the Ally-cast W, which primarily serves to help your allies. I'd argue that Allycast-W has a lot of applications for solo lane Karma, whether that's jungle ganks or teamfights. However, I think something I failed to deliver was the scope of buffs and tuning changes we're planning with these changes (since I did not include numbers). So I'll preview the tuning changes below. **Please keep in mind that these are not final numbers - we may change these drastically depending on initial balance reads from the PBE**: * Base Stats * Move Speed: 335 >>> 330 * HP Regen: 5.5 (+0.55/lvl) >>> 7 (+0.6/lvl) * Armor: 26 >>> 30 * Passive - Gathering Fire * Kindled Spirit * Cooldown reduced on Mantra from damage dealt: 2/3/4 (levels 1/7/13) >>> 3/4/5/6 (ult ranks) * No longer halved on auto-attacks * Now works against large monsters * Now operates on a charge system * Karma gains 1 charge per 7 seconds, to a cap of 3 charges * [NEW] Souls Alight * Karma can see an indicator for her ally's total basic spell cooldowns * Q - Inner Flame * Mantra - Soulflare * Bonus Damage: 25/75/125/175 (+30% AP) >>> 35/105/175/245 (+45% AP) * Detonation Damage: 35/140/245/350 (+60% AP) >>> 25/110/195/280 (+45% AP) * W - Spirit Bond * Cooldown: 12 >>> 16 * Mana: 50-70 >>> 70 * Damage per tick: 30/55/80/105/130 (+45% AP) >>> 50/75/100/125/150 (+60% AP) * Mantra - Renewal * Healing (per tick): 20% (+0.01% AP) of missing health >>> 15% of missing health + 25% AP * [NEW] Ally Cast: * Reduces an ally's basic ability cooldowns by up to 10s total over the bond duration (2s). * Mantra - Harmony * Plus 20/30/40/50s cooldown reduction. Returns 20% of Max Mana to the ally. * E - Inspire * Shield: 70/95/120/145/170 (+50% AP) >>> 75/100/125/150/175 (+55% AP) * Move Speed Bonus: 40/45/50/55/60% >>> 35/40/45/50/55% * Mantra - Defiance * Shared Shield Percent: 30% >>> 75%, split across all shared targets * Shared Movespeed Percent: 100% >>> 75%, split across all shared targets We believe that solo lane Karma is properly served by the base stat changes, adjustments to AP ratios, and relative strengths of the Enemy-W cast as a alternative option, but we will definitely see how these land and make sure that solo lane Karma players feel like they can play their champion effectively. However, I will reaffirm that proper choice of which cast of W to use in a given situation is an important skill for Karma in any lane - good Karma players will exercise the proper decisionmaking, both through the modal W cast and Mantra choice, her signature spell.
>#\#1 - Karma's Ally W is broken with certain champs or will be super strong in coordinated play, forcing us to nerf her/balance her around her new W >We understand that there's still some risk here, and will be actively monitoring anything that gets too out of control. That doesn't sound very appeasing. > Mantra - Harmony Plus 20/30/40/50s cooldown reduction. Returns 20% of Max Mana to the ally. Does it make sense to have more than 20 seconds refunded when there are barely any basic abilties with cooldowns exceeding 30 seconds? Unless the refund is somehow split across the abilities. What do I really get from maxing W in terms of ally cast? Won't that be either too strong in early or too weak in late?
: Actually, the changes that they rolled out specifically were **not** to open up bot lane. Riot realized that without larger systemic changes that they weren't going to implement at the time, it couldn't be done in a healthy way. However, it inadvertently did that, and like predicted, was not in any meaningful healthy way.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=EE1fImt5,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-01-31T16:38:26.138+0000) > > **Why open up bot lane?** > > As mentioned last week we're looking to open up bot lane to other classes beyond marksmen. Seen quite a lot of discussion about that, ranging from people really excited to play other stuff bot to players who think it's a terrible idea. Figured we should share some more of our rationale as a result. > > > > What we're trying to do: > > * We want to make it so other classes can be played bot IF you want to. > > * We don't want to push marksmen out of bot lane. They'll still be great choices there and, if you want to play nothing but marksmen in bot, that should be a fine choice. This is not about forcing people who want to play marksmen only to play other classes, but allowing people who want to play other things to do so. Can understand the concern about being pushed out of the only position some champions can play and that's not our goal. > > * We want to open bot up to a range of classes, not just marksmen and one other one. That'll be a gradual process though. Most likely outcome is that mid-season opens the position up somewhat (mages most likely). Later work then opens it up more, based in part off learnings from mid-season. > > > > Why we think we should do it: > > * We think LoL is a more enjoyable and interesting game when you can play a wider range of team comps and get a range of different laning experiences. A lot of players gravitate towards trying new stuff, experimenting with what does and doesn't work. > > * Bot is currently much more limited in terms of what works there than other positions. We'd like to open it up as a result to players who want to go bot but don't like Marksmen and players who like marksmen but would also like to play some other class(es). That's been a frequent request from many players for quite a long time. Yeah sorry for misreading, you're right. The intention was no to open up bottom lane. I mean that post was from January 31st so seems pretty misleading to state that they were planing that for months.
: 52% wr for 18% pr in master is fine ??? >TLDR - fine so far, innovation's cool, seems very counter pick dependent. innovation wasnt cool when every classe were played bot.
God forbid that more than 2 non-marksmen were playable in the bottom carry position without hundred thousand ADC mains crying about it. Riot worked for months on changes to open up bottom lane diversity and completely rowed back from that like after 2 weeks already.
: Hi Meddler! With the release of the new {{champion:9}} skin to the PBE, I was wondering if the champion is close (or far) to a rework, and if there is anything you can say about his performance in the jungle.
I don't think he's getting any work anytime soon that exceeds number adjustments. You don't start creating a skin without asking the champ up team whether he's going to receive work and you don't start that work if the answer is anything but no.
Xcion (NA)
: i really hope we get ADC reverts
Revert to Midseason or to pre-midseason?
Jansuo (EUNE)
: The thing is that everyone would have to guess randomly. I mean, who rational would have guessed that the team who's won the Worlds the last year would end up the last in their group.
> [{quoted}](name=Bondy,realm=EUNE,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=7wxsO5H5,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-10-20T18:02:09.947+0000) > > The thing is that everyone would have to guess randomly. I mean, who rational would have guessed that the team who's won the Worlds the last year would end up the last in their group. Here {{sticker:sg-poppy}}
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 19
Despite the nerfs, Nami is still super oppressive and remains a 52% winrate (at time of writing). This winrate is stable across all MMRs. She’s in the top 5 across all MMRs so it makes sense to give her some follow-up nerfs. I propose the following: Nami is supposed to be super squishy but she doesn’t give much room to punish her for that. This also shows in her super low average deaths per game. Only Janna and Taric have less average deaths as data showed. Reduce her durability especially against physical damage so marksmen can punish trade back to her W a bit better. Proposed change: Armor per level down from 4 to 3.5~3.7 Nami can still too reliably heal up herself or her adc with her initial W - Ebb and Flow (without bounces). She should be forced to play more around getting her bounces of and give opponents more opportunities to retaliate or gank her in the process. Atm she can pretty much outsustain any all-in that did not kill her in the first place. Proposed change: Initial heal down from 60/85/110/135/160 to 50/75/100/125/130 Bounce base ratio up from 85% to 90% Nami has a far too easy time landing important Qs - Aqua Prison on opponents if she can prepare them with R - Tidal Wave especially in close range. Her ultimate is too effective in setting up a Q if the opponent is in short range. Changes should reward her for landing long range ultimates and give her opponents better chances of dodging her close range combo. Proposed change: Knockup duration from flat 0.5 seconds to 0.25-0.75 seconds depending on distance traveled. Slow down from 50/60/70% to 30/50/70% (data from leagueofgraphs.com; champion.gg)
: Seriously, nerf Nami?
> [{quoted}](name=Riot jinxylord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZOs3fuE5,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-10-03T18:35:46.422+0000) > > Nami and Ahri are incredibly powerful in their respective roles at all MMR's. Makes sense to nerf them. Continues to ignore each and every sort of argument from players and stays silent.
: The next Victorious Skin will be for Orianna
Just wanted to jump into this discussion to clearify the process of deciding what champion is getting a victorious skin - especially since this seems to be causing quite the confusion why there's not hyper popular champion getting the skin. Victorious skins are being determined pretty early for a few years now. The skin has to be guaranteed ready at some point, including scrapped designs here or there, bugfixing and so on. This means that they start work on it super early before much play happens in SQ or professional play. Therefore the skin has to be **based on predictions** besides general guidelines like: - does not share the same position than the latest victorious skin(s) - has gameplay or visual update in work that interfers with skin production - is high on VGU or VU list so is high risk to interfer with skin production at some point - did not receive a skin recently/has a skin in production - has a minimum number (unknown) of skins and some other rules.
Lapis (OCE)
: Wait, what Karma rework? I just picked her up and I'd rather she not change soon!
I think it's about the latest re-iteration of her W that ended up being scrapped. But it meant that Riot was trying to change something about Karma that, as far as I understand OP, is not helping Karma in any regards and not the amount/style of change it requires to handle the mess of her previous update.
Rioter Comments
: "I also like to put things in quotes that don't reflect what someone said" - D357R0Y3R Let me rephrase the statement which was from the post where I was talking about why we hadn't nerfed some of the high presence champs in pro play on 8.19. Hope this is clearer for you. 1. On 8.15/8.16 Kai'sa had high presence in pro play (76%), but had more picks than bans. 2. On 8.18 we nerfed her. 3. On 8.19 we opted to not nerf her again due to the fact we'd already nerfed her since the last pro play we'd seen. 4. On 8.19 we instead buffed some champs that are considered decent against her as a low range marksman (Pyke, Thresh, Kog'maw), while nerfing some that gave her a lot of protection (Braum/Tahm Kench). We're doing some power curve shifts to Kai'sa for potentially 8.21, but it's more involved than a standard buff/nerf and not something we were going to do for 8.19. Really enjoy talking on the boards!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but to me this reads like this: 1. If a champion has more picks than bans he's most likely okish? Better not nerf Nami because she has a pick rate of 5 times her ban rate? 4. You prefer to nerf defensive supports so that you can accentuate poor ADCs like Kai'Sa better? I don't understand this argument of nerfing defensive supports and buffing offensive ones because an ADC is too OP. -> Plus: This only works as long as she is picked so often. If she's not picked often the effect of changed supports will just change games where she's not includes. Which only happens if she's not as strong as you make her to be.
Fertsa (NA)
: iirc the formula for armor is 100/(100+Armor) meaning 100% damage taken at 0 armor, 33.3% damage taken at 200 armor 9% damage taken at some crazy 1000 armor situation so with that build and assuming your champion has 0 sources of armor other than items, you would take 27.7% of regular incoming physical damage, however this does nothing against true damage, magic damage, or the damage evidently being converted to true damage by conquerer 260 armor doesn't even cause 50 reflect damage from thornmail, and that's before MR reductions on the attacker Though last statement, Master Yi is a hyper carry and if he has 6 items ur screwed unless u have a stupid amount of CC and/or burst
0.09 or 9% (just to prevent someone misreading without checking this)
: Let's Discuss/Brainstorm Dark Harvest
I think this is definately one of the better posts in GP+ as it is easy to follow and makes perfect sense in every aspect. I'm usually not that kind of guy that just says "agree with everything" but I really can't think of anything that I'd change after your analysis. Actually I didn't thought Dark Harvest could be a healthy mechanic in the game, at least now I am unsure. I wonder if you'd introduce a mechanic like DH (independent on whether it is on items, champions or another system like runes) to a moba you were to design from the ground. When I have large amounts of off-time I put some work into a project (not from a coding perspective but a theoretical one) how I'd create a moba for myself that of course varies from the big ones currently available so that's not quite the same question. I came to the conclusion that I'd not want a feast or vermin nor a permanent stacking mechanic. Which means that mechanics like DH would not be introduced to my version in any form.
: Basically they're going to nerf nami, then pre-season changes will hit, change the meta, and suddenly she'll be weak again because she was never actually overpowered to begin with, and they'll either have to revert the nerf or leave her irrelevant.
As if they ever reverted a nerf
: I meant in high elo not pro play thats my bad, I was up for 32 hours when i wrote this. I put the picture in to relate to the high elo gameplay.
: for those disagreeing with me. fine its fine to disagree. but we've had over 25 games so far. not a single fucking game did the behind bot lane lose no. being 5 cs behind in lane doesn't mean your losing lane. it means your even. and don't fucking lie to my face when you sau "OH ZEITNOT SMASHED bot" when he didn't.
>not a single fucking game did the behind bot lane lose I think you mean it the other way around :P
: https://imgur.com/vHWEhZG Im not saying shes busted, I actually like playing against namis because its easy to one shot them compared to a Alistar/Pyke/Leona. But im guessing shes just nerfed because shes popular in pro play, and riot wants new unique champs in pro play.
Is that sarcasm? The last time Nami was ~regularly played in Professional Play was when Karma was insanely strong and Nami was considered one of her best counters. Looking into data she was played 1x in LCK summer 1x in LPL summer 1x in LMS spring
: First off, its not even a heavy nerf, secondly Nami has been strong for a while. According to several stat sites shes has 53-54%win rate with a 15 %+ play rate, those are obvious stats of a champion that is too strong, regardless of role. I agree the balance team makes some questionable decisions, however I don't think this is one of them. When people say "OMG Nami isn't strong others are just weaker and should instead be buffed", They are contradicting themselves from all those posts that make the front page where people say "nothing needs buffs, instead just nerf things that are strong, and don't buff the weak and that way you wont get a power creep" yet when a champion they like is put into that, suddenly it doesn't matter.
I think your confusing two things. When people talk about "power creep" they mean damage creep aka more damage in the game. You are right that if you keep buffing (certain) champions you get more damage in the game. Now that mainly counts for damage dealers. If you buff weak damage dealers instead of nerfing strong damage dealers, your level of damage obviously increases. But we are not talking about a damage dealer. We are talking about a defensive character that prevents/heals damage getting their defensive tool nerfed. THAT is also damage creep because you reduce the amount of damage mitigation in the game.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 3
I said it before and I say it again: The day you decide to nerf Nami officially shows how insane the balance team is. The fact that players actually asked for nerfs to Nami because they were reading a Number > 50% is a confession of failure on players’ side as well. That Nami evolved a high winrate is caused by a bunch of factors: >- nerfs to enchanters on a global level (cutting heal & shield power) did not affect her as much >- nerfs to shield enchanters (shield durations, decay) did not affect her at all >- nerfs to enchanters on an individual level when they provided too much peel for their marksmen without bringing anything else to the table did not affect her of course >- nerfs to supports that were pick/ban in LC$ (Tahm Kench, Braum, Rakan, Shen) did not affect her >- nerfs to support itemization resulting in one less health pot at the beginning of the game did not affect her as much Result: The competition around Nami on the support position has systematically been nerfed to a point where supports are slaves again. All the points that I mentioned that are nerfs to the support position but still favors Nami because she is most likely to play against an opponent that suffered way more from any sort of nerfs before. Asking to nerf Nami is asking to further nerf the support position. You want to be autofilled even more into the support position? Go ahead and ask for further support nerfs. --- Nami has always been top tier in terms of - Gameplay Design: She’s no stupid heal/shield bot but is really fun to play. The player can actually decide to play passively or aggressively depending on circumstances and how lane plays out early without being dictated one playstyle by the “balance” team. - Fairness: Even though she has an over average high winrate she remains a super low ban rate. Players always liked to play against a Nami and even do so when she’s that strong compared to her direct competitors. - Balance: Nami barely ever found her way into patch notes outside of a) bug fixes or b) general stat changes that affected a whole bunch of champions at the same time anyway. Even the last real buff was surprising and unnecessary but the “balance” team went through with it anyway for reasons. I asked several times that if they’d ever think about nerfing Nami they should just revert her Q buff. She was balanced before that change, rather balanced even afterwards. Now they go again with some experimental changes because that has always worked out as we all know. --- Taking a look at top supports in diamond plus via leagueofgraphs.com shows that the top supports are all focused on either poke-damage or all-in damage. Nami with her strength to heal up poke damage especially in a situation where she can get the double bounce and her strength to counter all-ins if played properly put her on top of the current meta. All that is not because her numbers are good but because her gameplay favors the meta and everything that could do the same job is basically nerfed to the ground. Asking to nerf Nami because of that is basically asking #PLEASE RIOT WE NEED MORE DAMAGE ORIENTED SUPPORTS PLEASE ADD MORE DAMAGE TO THE GAME. If you ask me you should ~~fire~~ move whoever came up with that nerf to a different area in the company like the cafeteria. But make sure to not let them pile food because they don’t really know how to balance things properly.
: That might be because other heal/shield supports get nerfed all the time. Riot doesn't want good healing and shielding to be a thing in their game anymore as it denies big play 0.5 second kills. Hell, just look at Janna getting her damage buffed to compensate for shield changes. The message is clear" We don't want you guys to be able to save your teammates directly, but you can still kill the other guy before he kills your teammate!"
And then proceed to nerf Tahm Kench into the ground who's still Top Tier in Pro Play because you can't directly nerf his devour. You either devour them or you don't, there's no in between. Saving allies directly = nerfed into the ground.
: Why are you nerfing Nami, who has been balanced for so long, instead of buffing her counters?
Reminder that today there should be Meddler's Quick gameplay Thoughts again. I'm definately posting there about this thing. Don't forget that this is basically the best chance to get Riot's attention on our opinions.
: :( they nerfed nami? Are you kidding? Shes not even that strong. Shes just the only decent enchanter left in the game. Why b Not buff her competitors, like Janna, Lulu, Soraka, etc. Or find a way to encourage people to play her counters, which are champs like Thresh, Alistar and Pyke. For that matter, why nerf Nami?! Alistar is far more over tuned and frustrating to play against; he gets level 2 and unless he's garbage, he will shit on your lane and zone you off. His main counter play is to flash, hope you have a Morg with black shield, or his own mistakes. That's it. And there isnt a single comp he cant fit well in. But sure. Nerf Nami who hasn't changed in three seasons. Fuck you Riot.
Rioter Comments
Vivianna (EUW)
: Troll case study
You need to black out their summoner name or you risk being banned from this forum as it violates the universal rules. Just black the names out and you#re good to go.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=DrCyanide,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=u5qfjU2Q,comment-id=000200010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-27T12:08:23.764+0000)Sounds like those Gameplay+ posts exist for the benefit of the poster, not so much for the readers. A reader can learn just as much about design and system interactions as the poster. >Why shoehorn the discussion to be around League when in reality those discussions are best *not* being about League? Mainly because the community here WANTS to discuss League, and suggesting fixes seems to be more popular than just discussing problems. People LIKE to suggest things, and letting them do so seems important.
I see that a bunch of new threads were enabled for gameplay plus thanks to this thread. I'd like to point out that'd be easier to track things if you'd limit the amount of threads that pop up per day because when you have like 4 or more you can't focus on one topic too much unless you really spend hours on boards just for this stuff alone. I'd like to propose some sort of schedule (if Wuks can do such a thing) where Mods can just add accepted submission to and that will automatically enable them on a daily bases. This way we don't end up having weeks between single posts but then beeing flooded with just a bunch at the same time. Hope that feedback is helpfull.
fighter154 (EUNE)
: But meddler when the new colorful mage will be revealed? Before or after preseason?
: they had to fine-tune her a lot and with her recent grounded change, I forget but does grounded block flash as well? the wiki does not seem helpful in that it says all dash and blink "abilities"
: What are some noob mistakes you made when you first started playing LoL?
Max E on Draven first because I thought skillshots must be the most powerful abilities.
: What makes Taliyah so good in the jungle right now? I mained Taliyah most of 2017.
Her Q was changed from aoe to single target damage in 8.11 which significantly cut down her waveclear in lane while also heavily increasing her clear speed in the jungle against all those solo camps and the new rift scuttler (8.10).
: Why don't we just, dunno, get rid of Runes and Masteries alltogether?
Jumping in to give my two cents here: 1) I'm not sure how many players use them but the fact that there are pre-set rune pages might case a noticeable part of the casual players to not really use the rune system as a customization tool in the first place but as a mandatory self-solving part of the game which contradicts the existance of the runes reforged in the first place. 2) The fact that Riot sold rune pages for real cash currency (RP) in the past was a curse they are now stuck with. They can't get rid of runes reforged as they'd have to get rid of rune pages for that. Truth is, they already got rid of old runes for the most part and just renamed their mastery system as runes to pass on the problem with rune pages. Thinking about removing rune pages must always come with solving the problem how to handle rune pages.
: I actually wasn't prepared to agree with you at the start of this post, but you did a good job of backing up your argument here. I think rift herald is a great example of the right amount of interaction, but I wouldn't want it to get much more interactive than that. Neutral objectives are often interesting because the opponent is around... they aren't necessarily designed to be challenging when you have a 5 man team and can rush it uncontested. But I generally agree that a little more action is needed from drakes and baron.
I don't know what I should discuss here.
: Let's talk Azir: Why his kit is a problem and how a possible fix could look like
I think your missing some really important points to have your post make sense. You argue like this: - Azir doesn't need buffs, he's just too hard to balance for high and low elo - Proceed to compare Azir to Orianna coming to the conclusion that Azir is by far better then Orianna (in general) - Start to come up with solutions without a single word about what makes him good in pro play especially that has low viability in lower elo My thoughts about Azir's viability in professional play: --- 1) Shifting Sands When I think off Azir in pro play I really think about these incredible playmaking situations where Azir dashes behind a group of opponents, knocking them into his own team and have them burst down immediately. Think about it as an AOE Lee Sin combo with much heavier follow up damage. What makes a big difference between pro and regular play is the amount of setup communication and follow up. In professional play his allies will jump onto the enemy immediately so they are dead (or forced to retreat) before the can return damage on Azir and threaten him. In regular play, this immediate follow up is missing so the soloQ Azir player will much more often be killed by returned damage without his enemies taking serious damage. --- 2) Conquering Sands Azir is not too unique in being an auto attack based mage, but in that he needs his soldiers to deal his high amounts of damage. Despite maxing Q first, he still remains a 5 second cooldown on their reposition tool. If he positions them not optimally or the opponent disengages or moves away from their are of influence, Azir's damage potential will not activate. This can cause his team to fight at serious disadvantages for important seconds whereas the professional azir pleaser can communicate such an issue with his team so that they play around that better. You often see professional teams play around each other until a team finds that one engage they really wanted. ---- 3) Game length Azir comes online pretty late into the game because while needing traditional mage stats he also needs attack speed to directly scale from. Professional games use to take somewhat longer so an Azir will more reliable reach a point of being viable to their team compared to SoloQ. --- 4) Clearing His soldiers can be used to clear the waves early on without too high mana costs giving him the ability to roam to side lanes or shift towards his jungler to back them up while contesting. This is especially of value for organized and professional play which has often caused champions into professional play despite being considered weak in SoloQ. Everytime Azir is "decent" he has really good waveclear giving him lane priority and lets him enable their junglers better to contest objectives, threatening opponent junglers into 2 v 1 while his opponent midlaner is forced to finish farming his wave. --- My conclusion: Out of all the 4 points I made, I think it is more important to remove his ability to go for LC$ Big Plays with shifting Sands and compensate him with a tool which is more valuable for SoloQ. This has also been an approach during (one of two) during his last update attempt but Riot opted into (keep everything the same but reduce range and some numbers).
Wuks (NA)
: Boards Classic or Boards Blue?
I don't know how many designs there were since boards are Beta and so far I can only really compare the current design with the previous one. So the previous one - whatever name it had - was quite more appealing to me.
Wuks (NA)
: Thanks for the feedback! This iteration of the Boards updates has gone through about 3-4 months of tuning this far, and will go through lots more tuning with the help of Boards users like you. Thank you again for the kind words and feedback.
I liked the old one better tbh :/
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InTheory

Level 90 (EUW)
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