: > [{quoted}](name=IxtaliKing,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=FBbpcONk,comment-id=000000000000000200000000,timestamp=2019-08-14T21:39:40.015+0000) > > But even with the lore, as people always say: "this is Runeterra, Earth races/culture don't exist there". > > I just find it interesting (and sad) that it's only the darker skinned champs that face the scrutiny of what Earthly race they'd belong to. You raise an interesting point here. But I feel like not a lot of people are really clued into the assorted facial features and other genetic quirks that might divide parts of Europe for instance. (When I find someone else who is, though, funny things happen, because I am essentially an Eastern European Jewish mutt and some people have a knack for figuring out exactly where parts of my family are from.) They're just things we take for granted, and it's always easier when skin tone makes it obvious.
> [{quoted}](name=KestrelGirl,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=FBbpcONk,comment-id=0000000000000002000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-14T22:38:08.660+0000) > > You raise an interesting point here. But I feel like not a lot of people are really clued into the assorted facial features and other genetic quirks that might divide parts of Europe for instance. (When I find someone else who is, though, funny things happen, because I am essentially an Eastern European Jewish mutt and some people have a knack for figuring out exactly where parts of my family are from.) They're just things we take for granted, and it's always easier when skin tone makes it obvious. That's very true. Europeans are not a homogeneous group, but are typically lumped together as "white". We could go a step further and say pale skinned or "white" passing people from anywhere in the world, are referred to and accepted as "white". For "Black" people on the other hand, they are limited to just being West Africans and their descendants. When it comes to dark skinned peoples, lines start to be drawn, and it becomes less about skin, and more about individual features. It's strange to me.
SEKAI (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=IxtaliKing,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=FBbpcONk,comment-id=0000000000000002,timestamp=2019-08-14T16:11:52.068+0000) > > Karma and Illaoi are easily read as "black" not only for having darker skin, but because of their voice actresses being "black" women. > > They look "black", and sound "black", to those who aren't familiar with any "Indian" or "Pacific Islander" design influences on these champions. That's like saying Edward Elric from Fullmetal Alchemist is Asian and is also a girl since in the original Japanese dub he's voiced by a Korean-Japanese voice actress. Except he isn't. He's a white person who lives in a fictional nation of Amestris that is based of Germany and is male. The same argument can be applied to the majority of characters in JoJo's franchise that routinely takes place in non-Japan nations with often non-Japanese protagonists facing off non-Japanese antagonists, but ofc all voiced by Japanese voice actors. Are we also saying none of the talking animals in The Lion King are wild animals but are in fact all humans since they talk and are voiced by human voice actors? Hell, let's look at League for yet another example. Yasuo for instance, is voiced by a white American voice actor. Does that mean Yasuo is somehow not coded Asian? The list goes on. Since when the voice actor is the one that defines the characteristic of the character they play? Voice actors may or may not play _some_ parts in defining a character, but it is their job to PORTRAY and not to DEFINE. **It's obvious canon comes before the actors doing the portrayal, and NOT the other way around.** Of course the characters are defined by their in-universe characteristic according to canon first and foremost. Just because some people stay intentionally ignorant to such an extreme that they treat all people with pigments in skins as the one and the same or something, it doesn't mean we really need to give them any attention nor take them seriously enough to even mention them.
You've misunderstood me: I'm not saying "they are black because their voice actresses are...", I'm saying they can easily be **interpreted** as "black" because they both look and sound "black".
: > [{quoted}](name=IxtaliKing,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=FBbpcONk,comment-id=0000000000000002,timestamp=2019-08-14T16:11:52.068+0000) > > Karma and Illaoi are easily read as "black" not only for having darker skin, but because of their voice actresses being "black" women. > > They look "black", and sound "black", to those who aren't familiar with any "Indian" or "Pacific Islander" design influences on these champions. This is a fair point. I would also be fine with an ordinary person reading them as being black if they've only ever played the game and not read the lore. Somebody who hasn't read up on the lore might not understand the cultural inspirations behind Buhru for instance. But we're on SA&S. Everyone's read *some* lore here!
But even with the lore, as people always say: "this is Runeterra, Earth races/culture don't exist there". I just find it interesting (and sad) that it's only the darker skinned champs that face the scrutiny of what Earthly race they'd belong to.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ebonmaw Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=FBbpcONk,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-08-13T23:58:41.756+0000) > > {{champion:420}} (maybe {{champion:163}} {{champion:43}}) All three are women of color, but none is intended to be black. Illaoi is coded as Pacific Islander, Karma as Indian, and Taliyah as Middle Eastern. This is our first black woman champion, i.e. coded as being of African descent.
Karma and Illaoi are easily read as "black" not only for having darker skin, but because of their voice actresses being "black" women. They look "black", and sound "black", to those who aren't familiar with any "Indian" or "Pacific Islander" design influences on these champions.
: As a pyke main, please nerf him
Honestly, whenever I let a Pyke into my games I regret not dodging. He is bullshit incarnate.
: > [{quoted}](name=Winterkill,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ZMRTdHmH,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-09T18:00:16.204+0000) > > They will nerf her. Every single time Karma is buffed they nerf her right after. There is a larger problem with the champion's kit and Riot refuses to act on it. When Karma is finally nerfed in a few patches, Riot will admit they were heavy handed with it and buff her again . . . . but nerf her right after. Riot loves working around a problem instead of actually working on the problem. I am hearing she was designed for solo lanes, is this true?
> [{quoted}](name=JCrooks23,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ZMRTdHmH,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-08-09T22:08:00.306+0000) > > I am hearing she was designed for solo lanes, is this true? "Originally envisioned as a support, Karma’s fringe successes actually came from players using her in the top or mid lanes as an AP burst mage with support abilities, much like Zilean or Morgana. **We like this direction and want to encourage you to boost both her offensive and support abilities by building AP**. **We also want to make sure she can hold her own as a solo or with a lane partner**. " - [Scarizard (the designer who reworked her).](http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3197509&page=279#post35623691)
: Will they nerf Karma since she is support role only but is being played top? Very strong
Karma can't be compared to a champ like Pyke, she was actually designed to play primarily in solo lanes. If Riot were to nerf her in a similar way, they might as well go ahead and delete her from the game entirely. Tired of them ruining mages for the support role.
: I honestly think that is what made her such a gutted champion. She was perfectly fine before that then they forced her into the support role which made her a dominant pick and her repetitive nerfs.
It certainly shifted her from being a damage oriented solo-lane friendly support, to a generalist support which is only fit for purpose when overtuned. And even then, it's either top lane as a tank, mid as a poke mage, or support as a shield bot. Those change threw out her cohesion, warped her identity, and broke her kit.
: Why would we play a champion that requires skill when we can smash our head on the keyboard and easily get kills with {{champion:141}} {{champion:121}} {{champion:107}} {{champion:91}} {{champion:238}} etc.?
Literally. She's literally not worth the effort.
: Aurelion Sol's Future... ~~Please Read~~
I don't play Aurelion Sol much, but I often wonder what he'd be like if his E and R were swapped around and adjusted accordingly. For example: Voice of Light on E would likely lose some range and damage in exchange for lower cost and CD. And if Comet of Legend was on R, perhaps it could gain some steering capabilities similar to Sion's R or Nunu's snowball. Do you think something like that could work? Whatever the case, I agree with you about the direction of his rework (particularly the updated W) changing his identity.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 2
Hey Meddler. At this point, is it fair to say that the changes Karma was given in 5.10 have broken her kit? The fact that we're STILL having to nerf RE 3 years later just seems weird to me... and that's not even mentioning all the other crude and questionable patchwork that's been done on her during that time. I can't help but feel like if that last mini-rework had occurred in S7, you guys would have called it a failure and reverted it in some way, just like Leblanc, Rengar and Zac.
: Riot is Failing This Year
To be fair, that Karma GU we almost got was disappointing on almost every level and needed to be scrapped. The biggest disappointment about that situation was that there wasn't a smaller set of "back-up" changes that could've gone through.
: Karma is cancer as she is lol, if anything she needs some nerfs.
Rework*. She needs a rework.
: i want karma nerfs, i literally see complete autofill monkeys play karma top with klepto and get free wins because their team is better and how broken the pick is, if you find a way to buff karma without impacting klepto top karma i would have no problem with karma buffs
I don't think anybody wants buffs for Karma. We want a balanced champion with skill expression that at least somewhat resembles the Karma we all knew and loved - not buffs.
: @Riot - Riot VS Karma
I really wish Riot would just bring back shield bomb. Instead of giving us nerfs on top of nerfs to RE. All these nerfs do is prove RE never should've changed to bonus shielding to begin with. Karma was a lot healthier back when she actually had to think about when and where she placed her RE. She wouldn't have needed her passive to be jacked up to 4 seconds to be useful in team fights - just wise decision making. An ally-tether would also be good for bringing Karma back to a space where she focuses more on dealing damage and buffing allies, as opposed to controlling enemies with CC. In an ideal world Karma would go back to her roots and lose some CC; particularly the RW bonus root, and the recent Q slow buffs. Her kit doesn't need more than a 1.5s root. I think that would make her less obnoxious for top lane, and more attractive as mid and support picks. The annoying thing about Karma's current state is that I'm pretty sure if her 5.10 mini-rework had taken place in season 7, she almost certainly would've been considered a failure and reverted by now.
: Irelia fanart by Chengwei Pan
I wish I could draw like this D':
: play style: variable rotation based assassin dmg: skill gated but plentiful mobility: almost too good place in meta: anti-assassin/anti-diver assassin (so she kills anything squishy but also does well into picks that want to do what she does, it's weird.) also a bit of an anti-bruiser for some picks. so for instance she does really well into renekton which i still feel is weird, she does well into camille which kinda makes sense thematically, she does not do well into morde at all though who knows what changes the patch will bring, and she can stale mate some juggs or tanks like malph or darius. she doesn't like playing into stat sticks is the short version, anything else she's quite comfortable with and the very popular assassin picks are mostly skill matchups. she absolutely eviscerates anything that doesn't have hp and armor when she get's items though, maybe her base dmg's get increased and her scaling is brought down? but then she's even harder to survive in the early game so...yeah, we'll get to that. skill cap: easily one of the highest in the game. skill floor: medium/high somewhere there, also one of the highest in the game. overpowered, underpowered or broken? eh, definitely not underpowered, or overpowered given her current state, but she is certainly broken. stay with me now. she's broken because she will likely have a volatile balance cycle and cause plenty of frustration around the community, she is not particularly weak or strong in the current meta given her numbers as they are, but she is incredibly useful to have on a knowledgeable team. there can only be more knowledgeable teams as time keeps on slipping slipping slipping, into the future~ that aside she can be stupid potent given a winning lane and able hands, haven't seen a champion that can assert themselves the way she does in teamfights around terrain, it literally win's games. also her stealth Q might get nerfed cause it's interaction with duskblade is dumb. what to buff on her? i don't know, i wouldn't buff her i would look for bugfixes, some instances her empowered Q lands and doesn't register, sometimes the EQ doesn't work as advertised but that's likely a ping thing on my end, ult should maybe have a larger knockback portion(?) as you can see i'm quite reluctant to give her more damage, best wait for the player base to get comfortable with her.
Beautifully articulated +1
: i hate that riot has such a fleshed out and interesting universe but is doing nothing with it
The art was initially what drew me into the game. Although I don't care much for mmos, I think one based in Runeterra would be awesome. What I really want to see is a full on animated Netflix series (like Castlevania), or a movie.
: Fiddlesticks relaunch Fear concept
I don't play Fiddlesticks, but I think this is a great idea xD
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 5
This "soft counter" philosophy sounds interesting. But, I was wondering how something like this might apply to generalists with many strengths and fewer weaknesses (like my girl {{champion:43}}). Karma has existed in a state of either being obnoxious and abusive ({{item:3025}} ), or underwhelming and borderline useless for several seasons. I believe this is in part due to her lack of a focused strength/weakness profile, and overly simplified mechanics. One of the biggest critiques of her cancelled rework was that it did nothing to fix these issues which many Karma mains believe to be glaring, yet less prevalent prior to 5.10. Do you feel this is an issue?
Shaian (EUW)
: Why I think Zyra's design approach after MYMU was wrong
I agree with bringing back the circular Q. The rectangle has always felt detached from her kit to me. I miss playing Zyra mid.
: > [{quoted}](name=Mileena Is Dead,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=7nwTveZb,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-06-30T02:05:02.547+0000) > > black woman from the jungle > This is probably the exact reason they didn't make her black: because certain people would look at her and say "Why does this game's only true black woman live in the jungle? IS THAT SOME KIND OF RACIST JOKE?? ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY BLACK PEOPLE ARE JUNGLE ANIMALS?" Riot wanted to avoid all that controversy before it occurred, so they made her racially ambiguous. In any case, there's no real reason to create a black female champion just because. The roster is already very diverse, as you mentioned. Furthermore, the League of Legends universe is completely different from ours. We have no idea what their world looks like geographically or culturally, so it's unreasonable to project our own conceptions of race onto League's champions. Not only that, but bringing gender/racial politics into every little aspect of the game is a recipe for disaster, as Riot's previous PR nightmares can attest to.
> [{quoted}](name=L Psy Kongroo,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=7nwTveZb,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-06-30T02:37:39.253+0000) > > This is probably the exact reason they didn't make her black: because certain people would look at her and say "Why does this game's only true black woman live in the jungle? IS THAT SOME KIND OF RACIST JOKE?? ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY BLACK PEOPLE ARE JUNGLE ANIMALS?" Riot wanted to avoid all that controversy before it occurred, so they made her racially ambiguous. > > In any case, **there's no real reason to create a black female champion just because**. The roster is already very diverse, as you mentioned. Furthermore, the League of Legends universe is completely different from ours. We have no idea what their world looks like geographically or culturally, so it's unreasonable to project our own conceptions of race onto League's champions. Not only that, but **bringing gender/racial politics into every little aspect of the game** is a recipe for disaster, as Riot's previous PR nightmares can attest to. I agree with pretty much everything said, but the statements in bold confuse me. Why wouldn't it be okay to make a dark skinned character "just because"? If it's a human character they can reasonably have any skin tone; I don't see how it could be "political" for a character to have dark skin. These kinds of considerations don't exist for fairer skinned characters, their place in any fantasy setting is never questioned. Yet when it comes to dark skinned characters, their inclusion seems to require more justification lest they be perceived as tokens, pandering to diversity-crazed SJWs. I just don't see why it has to be a point of contention.
: Mage invalid the whole adc class. Assasin invalid the whole squishy class. Tank invalid the whole assasin class. Adc+Enchanter late game > every other class. You see it now? Put Yasuo vs Darius and Darius will make Yasuo become Trashsuo
That's fine, but we're talking about a single champion invalidating a whole class; not one class countering another. Personally, I don't have too much issue with Yasuo, but he is OTT. Being strong early and transitioning into a hyper-carry should be illegal.
Falrein (EUW)
: If I may - I know this answer isn't addressed to me but still > Considering Karma and Syndra's designs, they both look like avatars of Ionian magic; one light and the other dark. It would seem weird to me if Syndra was able to just "crush" her (lol). Of course, I could just be reading the characters wrong. Speaking only for Syndra, I disagree with that overall statement. Unlike Kayle and Morgana I don't think they are the two sides of the same coin. Syndra is and has always been about the immense power she has, and the _potential_ she could achieve. She's not an avatar of Ionia's dark magic, she's "just" a mistreated child with wild emotions who happens to have... An incredible amount of magic. I do believe that Syndra has more overall raw power than Karma. If only because that's what she is about (understand my point - you can't have a character who is supposed to be all about power and potential so easily countered. I feel like this wouldn't be fair towards Syndra). I'm not saying Karma would get crushed, but I do believe it'd severely undermine Syndra's character if Karma was just as powerful as she is. Of course this is one of my favourite tropes ever (think Scarlet Witch, Jean Grey, Azshara), so I do care about powerlevel. I'm not saying Syndra can't be defeated (I have said earlier that it should happen at some point), just that it feels bad (I mean, it wouldn't for you, it would for me) if that supposedly stronger-than-most character, who's supposed to be a great threat (she _was_ called a bigger threat than Noxus. While biased, I do believe that's quite a statement of how powerful she is), were to be matched so easily by a single person! That's just my take on the matter tho. Everyone would love their fave to be powerful and important and I am no exception. It's just that I love Syndra _because_ she is that trope that I love, and I'd be quite annoyed if it turned out... She wasn't? :p
Like i said, i could easily be very wrong. I'm sure I am way off, but I enjoy speculating :). Going back to my example of Yoda vs Palpatine: although Palpatine seemingly came out on top, the fight was inconclusive. If Yoda's goal was to subdue and arrest Palpatine, he would have needed the help of other Jedi to achieve that goal. Just like Mace Windu did... assuming you know Star Wars (lol). I would imagine if there was ever to be a showdown between Karma and Syndra, Karma would need assistance from Shen or perhaps others because the goal probably wouldn't simply be to kill her (I'd hope). It would be boring and disservice to the whole of Ionia if came down to a 1v1 between them with one dying/losing. I think things are always more complicated for characters who are aligned with the "good", because they're tasked with using their powers protect. In Karma's case that's literally what she does; she heals, she guides, she protects. When you stack that up against someone who is all about power and is chaotic/destructive, it's never gonna seem impressive. Tbh Karma has no stories except for that long bio, and isn't featured in any other characters stories. She's been retconned and rewritten a few times already, so, chances are she isn't very strong or important anyway. Edit: Scarlet Witch is one of my favs too, btw. She was awesome in House of M and Endgame xD And I forgot to mention that both Syndra and Karma have the same quote "By force of will", hence why I felt the two might have paralleled each other somewhat.
alekzu (EUW)
: > The way I see Karma is that Darha is what makes this Karma special; she has the powers of Karma, and the accumulated wisdom, but what makes her truly powerful is her individual will and resolve. Where the previous Karma's were likely pure pacifists, Darha isn't. "I know your spirit, but I must stop your heart." - The words of a powerful woman with the conviction to do what needs to be done. I absolutely understand what you mean. When she got her third(?) retcon and made her into a pure pacifist it made me so upset and angry that I wanted to make even more condescending thread than any of Winter's(no offense Winter!). But I was relieved after a rioter posted that they listened to our feedback. > I haven't read Karma's bio in a while, but I vaguely remember a line stating that after she blew up the Noxians, the voices "guiding" her disappeared. She can still hear them...just not as loud as before? They are just really upset about how Darha used her powers. But would they keep this "kindergarden" attitude if Karma had to face Syndra? Someone who can wipe Karma from existence forever? They could of course still resolve to their pacifist ideals and decide to die than use action but then they are condemning their land and people to a very long suffering and pain, especially in Syndra's current state. And for someone who wishes to guide his/her people and land to a better future I think that Karma would make a huge compromise and let Darha use all of Karma's offensive power, just for that fight...and any of such a degree really. I mean at the end Darha will slap some sense into these oldies hehe. > An excellent point, and one that makes me hesitant to just proclaim Syndra to be more powerful than Karma. Syndra is chaotic and a lot more offensive in the application of her powers, but who's to say that necessarily makes her more powerful? Well personally I do think Syndra is stronger than Karma especially in terms of raw power. But that is only because it's Syndra's selling point. Karma is not about that. I don't know how you feel about all this my friend but what draw me to Karma was her incredible calm and wise approach to things in combination with her unwavering will. You can put her against someone like Aurelion Sol and certainly condemn her to her death but she will never fall on her knees and accept defeat. "An ideal is nothing...until you fight for it"! This is why I don't care if there are stronger champions than her. Do I think it would be cool for her to be one of the most powerful characters in the lore? Sure! But this is not my biggest wish for her and as long as the things(which I have mentioned) are present I am happy what she is. After her recton they were not so yes I had issues but after the "fix" I am all good(for now). Besides, she doens't need more raw power...she needs a proper gameplay thematic!(sorry I couldn't resist xP)
> Well personally I do think Syndra is stronger than Karma especially in terms of raw power. But that is only because it's Syndra's selling point. Karma is not about that. Perhaps you're right. Although, It seems a lot to me like the Yoda vs Palpatine situation where both represent equal and opposite extremes. Palpatine was more powerful in his raw offensive use of the force, yet Yoda was able to stalemate him because of his skill, wisdom, and power in the light side. Considering Karma and Syndra's designs, they both look like avatars of Ionian magic; one light and the other dark. It would seem weird to me if Syndra was able to just "crush" her (lol). Of course, I could just be reading the characters wrong. > I don't know how you feel about all this my friend but what draw me to Karma was her incredible calm and wise approach to things in combination with her unwavering will. You can put her against someone like Aurelion Sol and certainly condemn her to her death but she will never fall on her knees and accept defeat. I am drawn to the same things. I think her commitment to peace, and her understanding of the "wisdom in war" make her super interesting character. This idea of seeing two paths and finding another in between is quite resonant on many levels. Your Aurelion Sol example is interesting also because it raises questions I have about the hierarchy of magic in Runeterra. How does does spirit magic (in all in it's variants) rank against cosmic or elemental magic? Naturally, I would expect Aurelion Sol to be more powerful than any individual mage, but it would be cool to see how these different powers stack up against one another. > This is why I don't care if there are stronger champions than her. Do I think it would be cool for her to be one of the most powerful characters in the lore? Sure! But this is not my biggest wish for her and as long as the things(which I have mentioned) are present I am happy what she is. After her recton they were not so yes I had issues but after the "fix" I am all good(for now). For sure. Although I'm curious to know, her power level in the lore isn't important to me either. Even if she does to turn out to be comparatively weak to other characters (which wouldn't surprise me), as long as she's the same calm, wise, bad b!tch I talking in-game when I play her, she'll remain my fav xD. > Besides, she doens't need more raw power...she needs a proper gameplay thematic!(sorry I couldn't resist xP) 100% agree, Riot is dropping the ball on her big time lol.
alekzu (EUW)
: I don't think Syndra vs Karma in a 1vs1 fight is impossible. I think that Karma is very underestimated(or maybe I am overestimating her?). 1. Karma is not just a human, she is an ancient spirit. If we talk about the vessel Darha then yes, Syndra will crush her. However because of that spirit(or whatever it is)she is able to enter her mantra state and connect to all her past lives. Now I don't know how the rules in runeterra work but Karma seems to be inspired by the animated show "Avatar: The Last Airbender" where connecting to the past lives allow them to combine their powers. If the same rules work for Karma then it's basically Karma combining the powers of thousands of people/souls. And not just people but elders who are considered to be very strong mages. It's will be basically a Syndra vs an army of thousands of people/souls. 2. Karma doesn't just combine her powers but she also receives guidance, wisdom and knowledge from them. I personally believe that knowledge is as important as raw power. Off-topic but I always viewed that young mages have a lot of magic and powerful body but lack the knowledge to cast that cool and fearsome spell so they wander trough the world seeking that knowledge until they are ready. But then they are too old and their body can't take the stress from the spell so what do they do? They find an apprentice to pass on that knowledge and make them cast that powerful spell. It's like progression of the generations. Now you wonder why I even write that? Well it's because I believe that even though Syndra has insane amount of raw power she lacks the knowledge to cast them deadly spells. She is not weak, it's just that Karma has the advantage who can tap to that knowledge and cast some tricky spells. 3. Karma herself is inexperienced and has a lot to learn. I mean, she hasn't used her powers offensively for thousand of years and then when she did for the first time, she blows a whole ship. It's just that Karma doesn't look flashy. It's the curse of her character. When you have someone lift a fortress everyone thinks he/she is powerful but if you have someone create a shield and/or heal it looks boring so every thinks that that character is weak. But do we know how difficult is to use protective barriers? I mean a barrier to be able to block a spell has to be as powerful as the offensive spell, no? 3. Even if Syndra killed Karma then Karma can just reincarnate into her next life and use the experience from the battle in her advantage especially if Syndra doesn't know that Karma can incarnate. Ofc in one of the stories it is mentioned that Syndra does some wierd stuff to the soul so we don't know how it will affect Karma. Will it damage her and weaken her so she won't be as powerful as before after her reincarnation? Or will it permanently destroy her? We don't know really. Ofc I won't be denying that I have a lot of bias towards my favourite champion. So seeing her lose will upset me. I don't think anyone likes to see their champion lose because it showcases them as weak and no one wants to be relatable to a weak character right? But I will not deny that Syndra is stronger than Karma in terms of raw power. I think that in a fight it will be 70/30 in favour for Syndra...or even 80/20. But I do think Karma can hold her ground. Maybe I am biased, maybe not. This is why I think the best compromise that can be made is to make them fight, showcase their powers but have no winners. It's doesn't """downgrade""" any of them. As for them being friends...I like the idea. Imagine what they can do together. Teach each other, train and refine their powers. Karma staying in the back and protecting while Syndra going on the front, creating chaos and fear in her enemies. They don't have to be enemies and they can respect each other. What is white without dark? Order without chaos? Same way...Karma uses more...passive approach while Syndra uses more aggressive approach. You may disagree with some of my points but I guess it's what makes these discussion so interesting! When you have some one who you agree with in everything there is just...nothing to discuss at all, hehe. I hope I didn't insult you somehow!
I know this comment wasn't to me, but you raised some very interesting points! xD > Karma is not just a human, she is an ancient spirit. If we talk about the vessel Darha then yes, Syndra will crush her. However because of that spirit(or whatever it is)she is able to enter her mantra state and connect to all her past lives. Now I don't know how the rules in runeterra work but Karma seems to be inspired by the animated show "Avatar: The Last Airbender" where connecting to the past lives allow them to combine their powers. If the same rules work for Karma then it's basically Karma combining the powers of thousands of people/souls. And not just people but elders who are considered to be very strong mages. It's will be basically a Syndra vs an army of thousands of people/souls. That's an interesting way to look at it. The way I see Karma is that Darha is what makes this Karma special; she has the powers of Karma, and the accumulated wisdom, but what makes her truly powerful is her individual will and resolve. Where the previous Karma's were likely pure pacifists, Darha isn't. "I know your spirit, but I must stop your heart." - The words of a powerful woman with the conviction to do what needs to be done. > Karma doesn't just combine her powers but she also receives guidance, wisdom and knowledge from them. I personally believe that knowledge is as important as raw power. I haven't read Karma's bio in a while, but I vaguely remember a line stating that after she blew up the Noxians, the voices "guiding" her disappeared. > Karma herself is inexperienced and has a lot to learn. I mean, she hasn't used her powers offensively for thousand of years and then when she did for the first time, she blows a whole ship. It's just that Karma doesn't look flashy. It's the curse of her character. When you have someone lift a fortress everyone thinks he/she is powerful but if you have someone create a shield and/or heal it looks boring so every thinks that that character is weak. But do we know how difficult is to use protective barriers? I mean a barrier to be able to block a spell has to be as powerful as the offensive spell, no? An excellent point, and one that makes me hesitant to just proclaim Syndra to be _more powerful_ than Karma. Syndra is chaotic and a lot more offensive in the application of her powers, but who's to say that necessarily makes her more powerful? > I think that in a fight it will be 70/30 in favour for Syndra...or even 80/20. But I do think Karma can hold her ground. Maybe I am biased, maybe not. This is why I think the best compromise that can be made is to make them fight, showcase their powers but have no winners. It's doesn't """downgrade""" any of them. See now, I would expect it to be a 50/50 thing if they fought, with both cancelling each other out. At least I would hope so, for the reason you said. Making one beat the other would kinda make one of them look bad. Also, from a design perspective they both look like equal opposites. Two integral forces of Ionia in need of representation... if you get what I mean? xD
Falrein (EUW)
: Interesting! Wasn't sure about that (given Karma has... is? many people in one), but I think I can picture that happen! I do think Karma could play a role in Syndra's "rehabilitation", even though I'm against the idea of a good-hearted, benevolent hero Syndra (I do like that chaotic vibe that she has), I think Karma could help Syndra be less "childish" without her being too "good" (if that makes sense...? D:)! Thanks for the answer :D!
Oh, certainly. Karma is the sum of many souls and experiences in a single vessel. However, what makes this Karma (Darha) special is that she has her own way of doing things. She's not a pacifist like the Karma's before her, and her journey seems to be the discovery of a deeper truth, not yet discovered by her predecessors. I don't imagine that Karma would necessarily turn her good, or if that would even be her goal. I think if anything Karma and/or Shen could be instrumental in helping her find her place in the world. I'd like to believe that Karma in particular would transcend the binary of "good" and "bad", given that both are perspectival.
Falrein (EUW)
: What would Shen and Karma think of Syndra?
We don't really have much to go off from Karma, but I imagine it would heavily depend on the context of their meeting. If Karma found her in a vulnerable state she most likely try to help her and offer guidance, without seeking control or "tame" her. However, if Syndra were to be an immanent threat, Karma would probably be the best person to counter her. Ultimately I hope Karma would be a part of Syndra's rehabilitation.
ChefTD (NA)
: Klepto is too important for a lot of champions, and it has already recieved nerfs (right?) champs like TF, Ezreal and GP all need the rune as the alternatives are not great. I think nerfing Karma's overall viability to do damage and instead buffing her crowd control and shield to better fit the support role (where she belongs)
Riot nerfing Karma's "overall viability to do damage" is the reason she's been so problematic for the past 4 seasons. The removal of her damage options has forced Riot to increase the up time of Mantra and buff her utility. And btw, Karma was designed for solo laning. Her RW being only a self heal stands out as a marker of her designer's intent.
Done25 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=IcebornKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uByQwtjX,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-06-26T21:11:17.872+0000) > > They cancelled it because the rest of the rework was bad. They should have kept that part.
Done25 (NA)
: Riot almost did. They were going to change her HP% heal into a flat so she coudln't just stack HP, but then they canceled it for some reason??
They cancelled it because the rest of the rework was bad.
: Yuumi is obscenely unfun to play against
I think Riot needs to revise their approach to Enchanter champions. In general, they don't seem to put much effort into their designs; not since Nami. They're just boring simple kits designed to be annoying. Yuumi in particular is disappointing because the selling point of her design is being untargetable and having gimmicky skill shot, which is sad.
: Karma top is still a thing lul
You really thought you were doing something with this post lul
GreenKnight (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Zoe loves BDSM,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cEEW6pEr,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-06-20T16:41:26.872+0000) > > The MS gave by her shield should scale with some AP ratio, instead of giving 40 to 60% free MS with no ap item, maybe same for her Q's base damages and slow. > That should at least resolves the problem of "Karma Top" > ~~bad english~~ But that would kill her in a support role and only push her more towards mid and top especially.
Then how come utility AP ratios work for Lulu and Sona ?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 20
Hey Meddler, a few questions: 1. With the increase in popularity of top lane Karma, what are yours or the balance team's current thoughts on the state of her kit? 2. After the cancellation of her rework, you mentioned the possibility of working on her passive - is this work still on the table? 3. Are there any plans for Azir? Haven't heard about him in a while...
: Riot forcing us to add yet another champion to the impossible amount we have to ban (Karma)
Karma in particular can't be meta without being broken. It's a historical fact, that's why she needs a rework.
: Maybe I'm just pessimistic, but I don't see Riot doing that ever. Seems a bit too good to be true...especially since, like you said, Riot's been obsessed with their latest iteration.
I honestly feel as if they're avoiding her out of lack of interest. The only Rioter we've seen who actually liked Karma was NeuroCat, but she focused on the wrong things.
: Let's guess the region for upcoming champion!!!
I voted Shurima, but I think it could be easily be someone from the Blessed Isles. There's something about that light energy dispelling the darkness which makes me think it could be a remnant of the Blessed Isles.
: > [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=usyj7IWW,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2019-06-18T17:52:32.051+0000) > > Depends on the build. A huge part of it is Nimbus Cloak, coupled with movement ITEMS. If you built Move too, she couldn't outrun you. Bullshit. The root alone on top of the slow on her Q makes her one of the most efficient self-peel champs in the game. You either have to have crazy Zed burst or enough CC to kill her in the duration of the CC before she can shield and run. And since none of her skills besides her root require being in engagement range of the enemy, she can just free poke all game long while shielding her allies and peeling targets that get all-in'd on. These are cancer support champs. When you allow supports to give ADC's so much survival, the game devolves into an arms race of giving assassins and melee champs enough damage to burst them in one rotation, which is toxic because then the other laners pay the price of buffed melee champs needing that damage to deal with a duo bot lane's CC/shields/heals on ADC.
> And since none of her skills besides her root require being in engagement range of the enemy, she can just free poke all game long while shielding her allies and peeling targets that get all-in'd on. Lol... It's a shame, once upon a time she also had to consider enemy positioning in order to cast RE efficiently. Once upon a time her spells didn't refund over 2s per champ hit from Mantra. But Riot won't listen to us when we tell them what's clearly wrong with her.
: Would y'all stop talking about changes that haven't happened yet without referencing where you heard about them?
SanKakU (NA)
: Often times, to perform a gameplay update is just a fancy way of saying you deleted a champion.
In some cases. I mean, Karma is a prime example since it's happened to her already. I don't think anyone reasonable wants to see this Karma deleted, just for the kit issues that Riot have acknowledged themselves. It doesn't take much.
SanKakU (NA)
: Not everyone wanted Karma to be deleted from the game. Stop trying to get them to delete champs. It's just the skin hype. As long as the hype doesn't die down too fast they'll stop buffing her. If the play rate remains high or goes higher then they will nerf her.
Potats (EUNE)
: Karma is underwhelming....
Lol you say this during the patch where she's actually strong?
: Instead of Ryze's 6th rework, can we get a rework for Aurelion????
I remember being so excited for Aurelion Sol until I saw his kit. Absolutely hated the fact that his main damage source was stars floating around him. When I first saw an in-game pic of him, i thought the stars may have been activated by a certain amount of spell hits for a duration. When I found out they were permanent, I was disappointed. That being said, he has a dedicated player base who love him and do well with him. Wouldn't be fair to rework him just to increase his play rate. That's what Riot did to Karma, and she really has become a dumpster fire of a champ.
: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/TkiBEVYV-karma-gameplay-change-preview?comment=00030000 They even said it tested well, but they decided not to choose it...despite that. I'll admit, it's not quite what I said, but they haven't done it before when they could have several times.
Oh okay, yeah that's not the same thing. They just need to revert to the 5.10 Mantra changes and take it from there. They've been forcing this iteration to work since S6 and it's not happening.
: I asked for a better Karma, I got a better Karma. I always loved this iteration of Karma, I don't want another rework. Karma Main from S3.
: Bc riot has said many times that they wont let karma have shield-bomb, so that takes a gameplay revert out of the question.
I'm pretty sure they've never actually said that... unless you've got links to where they have?
: Karma mains prolly, they love bitching bout that champ. I'd give em their Midland karma back if only to never see her bot again.
Most of us weren't actually asking for buffs. We wanted a GU that would honor who she used to be, and refine her strength/weakness profile. Essentially, making her a more balanced (fair) and interesting champ.
: My Thoughts as a Karma OTP about Karma and these Karma buffs
I agree with this for the most part, although I believe E ms buff was justified. I think the Q slow buff was unnecessary, and the reduced mana costs were excessive - her costs were low enough. Karma mains will happily abuse these buffs for the time being. But, I can't imagine that Riot wont nerf her again after a while.
: The only reason why he feel OP is because he counter pick vs specific champ archetype AKA mage. Seriously, if his early game is strong because he is your counter pick... what's the problem?
I mean... is it really healthy for a champ to invalid a whole class?
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IxtaliKing

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