: IMO he needs a few nerfs: Remove the AOE damage reduction on his E, make his E a fixed duration so people can better predict it, reduce the damage on his Q or increase it's cooldown.
Yeah let's rip his balls off for being 1% too strong.
Rαy (EUW)
: Sol is incredibly strong to be honest.
Yeah this guy got away unscathed. He's always been top-tier, but he takes so long to learn that most pros don't bother. He'll just be banned out if the other team knows you play him, and you could've learned 3 champions in the same time. Aurelion onetricks are to be feared, especially in Diamond and above.
Naalith (NA)
: The current Taliyah exists as a jungler after a rework intended to make her more tenable to lower level players while getting rid of lots of high level play potential (AOE Q mainly). She's strong, but she's basically not the same character and mid lane Taliyah lovers are basically out of luck.
[She's still good midlane though.](http://na.op.gg/champion/taliyah/statistics/mid) She's just not meta right now, except as a jungler.
: "I also like to put things in quotes that don't reflect what someone said" - D357R0Y3R Let me rephrase the statement which was from the post where I was talking about why we hadn't nerfed some of the high presence champs in pro play on 8.19. Hope this is clearer for you. 1. On 8.15/8.16 Kai'sa had high presence in pro play (76%), but had more picks than bans. 2. On 8.18 we nerfed her. 3. On 8.19 we opted to not nerf her again due to the fact we'd already nerfed her since the last pro play we'd seen. 4. On 8.19 we instead buffed some champs that are considered decent against her as a low range marksman (Pyke, Thresh, Kog'maw), while nerfing some that gave her a lot of protection (Braum/Tahm Kench). We're doing some power curve shifts to Kai'sa for potentially 8.21, but it's more involved than a standard buff/nerf and not something we were going to do for 8.19. Really enjoy talking on the boards!
>Really enjoy talking on the boards! Don't we all.
Ulkusus (EUW)
: {{champion:157}} sits at a global 60% banrate no matter his winrate, indicating how players feel about his current state. But I guess he's too popular...
It's really hard to improve his design. Any attempt to nerf Wind Wall or his passive shield would likely just make him awful and unplayable. There are knock-on effects too; for example, if you nerfed/removed his crit passive, Yasuo would just use tanky items meant for bruisers. Melee champions need very powerful incentives to build squishy, otherwise it's worth trading 10% less damage for 30% more survivability. The fact is that there's no part of Yasuo that can be nerfed without making him much worse to play as, or much worse to play against. He's in a relatively balanced state, so any nerf would have to be matched with a buff of equal measure. I can't think of any way he could be reworked without awful compromises. In all seriousness, I think Yasuo is annoying *because* he's popular. Almost every Yasuo you encounter is a Yasuo main, which makes him more difficult to play against. It creates a warped perception that he's easy or overpowered.
: Let's Discuss/Brainstorm Dark Harvest
It's strange to me that this rune was introduced at all. Did Riot forget the grief Feral Flare and Devourer put them through? At no point in the game's history was a stacking mechanic in the jungle balanced. Low elo players always get free time to stack and destroy the other team, while high elo players lose the early game to champions that invested in runes and items that let them have early impact. Same reason you rarely see Evelynn, Master Yi, or Shyvana; the game is usually lost before they have they can have the same impact that the enemy jungler had. I don't see any way to fix this rune without capping the stacks or removing its identity of a stacking effect. You could maybe do something like Kindred and force the jungler to get stacks from the enemy jungle, but that could be hard to balance because the risk is so high.
Dicerson (NA)
: I am sorry, but I cannot agree with this system. I agree that RNG is bad in this scenario, a roll of the dice should not determine the outcome of a game where skill and strategy are the core emphasis. But the system you propose here is little different than simply giving items more damage (The only real difference is that crit damage would apply to auto-attacks only, raw AD applies to every attack as well as to items that require it). And while that in and of itself _may_ be a good reason to discern the two, it removes what crit chance was all about. The very reason the idea itself exists. To this end, I will examine what Crits really are, why they exist, etc. The idea of a critical strike, more or less, originates in tabletop games, DnD to be specific. It was an RNG mechanic because that's what DnD (and nearly every other tabletop since) is all about, simulating the natural uncertainty of reality with dice rolls. A critical strike was when, by random chance, an attack happened to strike a particularly weak or vital spot. Every system has had a unique way of implementing them, some less random than others, but they are all built on one core idea: Critical strikes are a moment of power, they give the player an instant where they are significantly stronger than they otherwise are; and not only does this in and of itself feel good and creates opportunity for the character to express themselves by "flavoring" the crit, but it also provides inconsistency, which makes the game more interesting in general and adds a unique dynamic for the players to play around and play with. In a tabletop RPG setting, where most everything is RNG (and strategies revolving around it) and where the *point* of the game is not even the combat mechanics (They are *role playing* games, they are about collective storytelling, and are almost universally pure PvE), this is fine. They accomplish the above purpose well enough that there is no need to change them. But in a highly competitive, PvP combat-only video game setting, where tournaments (and thousands, or even tens of thousands of dollars) are won or lost on the game, an RNG mechanic like this is intolerable. Unacceptable. So, then, what do we do? RNG crits don't work, but if we just replace them with, in effect, a raw damage scaling multiplier, the effect that crits have are lost. The moment where you are temporarily more powerful is gone, the game becomes less interesting. Is it even possible, however, to retain this effect without an RNG system? Yes, it very much is. There are multiple ways, in fact, that I can think of, and I shall outline 2 of them here. **1. "Lul 3-hit passive":** Though the name is satirical, the idea is anything but. It is a well-known idea for replacing crits, make them a "3 hit passive". An effect where every Xth attack does extra damage, a further exaggeration of the current system; which incorporates RNG, but makes every successive "miss" increase the chances of the next crit. This basically removes the RNG element of the current system, where the "X" is more or less randomly determined, with crit-chance making the number more likely to be smaller, and makes it consistent instead. 3 is a common number, but I think that is a bit too frequent to achieve the desire effect. If this system where to be put in place, I think every 5th attack would work (Champions with pre-existing multi-hit passives would need some serious tuning, unfortunately). Crit chance instead becomes a damage multiplier for this system, with the initial multiplier being 0 (No extra damage), and every successive item adding some amount of % bonus damage on a crit, up to a cap. This mechanic accomplishes the original purpose of Critical strikes (or at least, my interpretation of their purpose as outlined above), while also removing the RNG element. While it does have issues with being unoriginal (Everyone becomes walmart brand jhin/vayne), it is my personal vote. It's an interesting dynamic that forces marksmen to think about their attacks. That is to say, it adds _strategy_ to an otherwise mindless damage mechanic, where before all you had to do was select the right target and position (No small feat, ADCs are actually not easy to play, make no mistake with my words), now you have to think about where and when you place your crits. I personally like this outcome. It creates a tempo, where marksman have high and low points in their damage output they have to play around (an idea I've seen riot themselves emphasize as healthy for the game and a goal to shoot for) **2. "Stormrazor but everyone has it":** This idea is very similar in execution to the original, it creates a consistent tempo. However, rather than making it fixed to every X attacks, it ties the crit to the passage of time. Every X seconds, your next auto is a crit. Simple. Similar to the above, it removes the RNG element of when a crit will happen, and instead turns crit items into ones that augment the effect. The primary difference between this one and the above is that it allows marksmen to "charge up" their crits without having to attack, that is to say, a marksman can disengage from a fight without compromising their ability to crit often. Like the above, crit chance becomes a damage multiplier, starting at 0% (No extra damage) and going up to a cap. I do not know if this is a good or bad thing. On one hand, it allows more skirmish/kiting oriented marksman who do not throw out attacks as often as others (Jhin, cait, etc.) to crit as much as other marksmen, evening the playing field in that regard. However, on the other hand, it makes those same champions potentially far more effective as crit-oriented champions than their kits already make them, potentially even breaking them and requiring immense amounts of tuning (moreso even than the first idea). It also removes the inherent risk of crits. Crits have always been a gambit. With RNG it's literally a roll of the dice, with the 1st idea you have to actively put yourself in danger in order to get them. But this idea has no real inherent risk outside of needing to throw out an attack every now and then, not to mention it also creates a sense of urgency that you *have* to go and throw out the crit or you are being inefficient, creating more stress than anything else. This serves to hamper the original goal of just _feeling_ good, of having a moment of power, and thus creating a tempo of high and low points that the player plays around. It still creates the tempo, but it becomes a fight against time rather than a strategic placing of autos. The question "Where/when do I place my attacks" is instead replaced with a need to time your autos perfectly, to always be in the right place at the right time. Again, I am still unsure if that is good or bad as a mechanic, hence why I still offer the idea. There are other ways of removing RNG while still staying in line with my stated interpretation of the inherent purpose of Crits, but I am presently unable to formulate them into a coherent form for the purposes of explanation. Please, comment and let me know what you think of my ideas, and especially if you have any of your own.
I really hate the '3-hit crit' idea because it lessens the uniqueness of champions with their own 3-hit effects (and compounds their power), it's more complicated than any stat should be, and it would dramatically change the way ADCs play. Seriously there are so many problems. Imagine laning with this. You attack two minions, then threaten to attack your opponent, like Caitlyn with Headshot primed or Jhin on his 4th bullet. Except all ADCs would be repeating this every 3 attacks. I can't even imagine how clunkily this would interact with Graves' or Jhin's passives. Also consider how *incredibly* bursty crit would be if you took all the crit damage of 3 attacks, and concentrated it all into one attack. "Two random crits and one not crit" becomes "two not-crits, and then one MASSIVE crit." The problem would be even worse with a 5-hit passive. "Stormrazor for everyone" is a similarly bad idea because it has the same burst problem I outlined above. No, I'm very certain that my idea (or small variations of it) is the only viable rework to crit. Everything else makes crit too uneven, too complicated, too bursty, or warps ADC gameplay.
Jetboost (EUW)
: If the purpose is to remove the random chance for extra damage you could also have crit chance work like this: At 30% crit chance every auto attack adds 30 charge for a crit when above 100 next auto attack consumes 100 charges to perform a crit. When the champion in question has 100 or more charges make him have a vissual indicator that he will crit next autoattack. Like this you would be able to see the crit coming and it won't be random anymore. Won't this be way less work?
I don't like rework ideas that fundamentally change the way champions' autoattack patterns work and scale. Like your idea doesn't scale linearly, the difference between 30% and 35% would be *huge* because one takes 4 attacks to get to 100% and the latter only takes 3. It's important to me that every 1% of crit chance (or whatever) has similar value, yours instead has these huge powerspikes.
: Is it safe to say now that the ADC rework was a complete and utter failure?
Let's just say it was a learning experience. They had to buff ADCs back to their dominant state because they felt so awful to play. >Failed to make all ADCs viable, just switched out what the 'op' ADCs are. That was never a stated goal. Besides, most ADCs *are* viable, the "op" ADCs are just slightly better than the rest. >Goal to reduce early power spike by ADC's is a failure due to Stormrazor Working as intended, actually. Stormrazor is a reasonable early power spike on par with Luden's Echo or Black Cleaver, and it transitions nicely to the traditional 2-item powerspike of ADCs. >Goal to reduce ADC damage to squishes is a massive failure. ADC's like Jhin, Kai'sa and MF still 2-3 shotting squishy champions. You're really exaggerating. Only Jhin is doing that right now, if he's fed. Besides, the goal was to lower their *lategame* burst from Infinity Edge, which they succeeded in. >Goal to increase cost of ADCs items occurred initially and then Riot decided to basically reduce them back to their previous super low values as a buff. Again, this was never a stated goal. They wanted the items to have more reasonable cost efficiency, which they accomplished. >Introduced a bunch of broken items that are abused by non ADCs This is accurate to say of Essence Reaver, but after a few changes Stormrazor is in a fine spot.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 5
Hello Meddler, [have you seen this post?](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/HAnqrQTv-riot-please-nerfbuff-alpha-strike)
I º oºI (EUW)
: Hey Meddler, something bugs me about Ziggs. I've been playing Ziggs regularly since season 3 and his passive AA is basically only used for towers and lasthitting. What do you think about giving his passive AA additional range? It can't be used for trading right now because you will get out damaged by minion aggro + enemy spells since Ziggs has to get way too close to hit it. One could say it's high risk high reward, but the risk is too high because Ziggs simply dies if he gets in AA range, especially late game. PLEASE think about giving it like 100 additional range so he can finally compete with outperforming Champs like Syndra and Orianna.
That's a neat idea for a buff if Ziggs ever needs one.
: Clothesline Karma Mini-Retrospective
That last version is really cool and I'd love to see it on a champion in the future.
: > [{quoted}](name=Spideraxe,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=AENqRo6N,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-10-03T15:37:17.738+0000) > > Hey Meddler in relation to the DH nerf, I heard from Daniel Leaver and Maple that you guys are looking into a rework for it this preseason, can you share any goals or details for it We're looking at ways of delivering a satisfying 'stacking' experience with offensive output, without delivering a tonne of damage in a single basic attack. This type of almost unavoidable delivery is even less healthy than the pre-nerf electrocute and can hit far greater numbers depending on the bloodiness of the game.
I'm surprised you made that keystone in the first place, after the disaster of Devourer and Feral Flare.
Meddler (NA)
: One update since time of writing - we're probably moving towards just nerfing Graves's starting AD instead of scaling. Looking into it more he's already falling off pretty significantly, so we're just targeting general power instead.
Boards posters will laugh at this nerf, but nerfs to base AD are huge for any AD champion.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 3
Could you look at this short post? https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/HAnqrQTv-riot-please-nerfbuff-alpha-strike We're just asking for a very small balance change to Alpha Strike.
: He is balanced because he isnt strong, yi is a noob stomping champion that requires you to have to have point click cc on you team. But naturally there is no counter-play to him, and the main reason is the fact that he has true dmg in his kit, the same reason conq is unbalanced and ruined the game. Tanks do nothing and once he gets on a role, which really isnt hard, he stomps.
Are players here really so bad that they need a Malzahar ult to CC Master Yi? After he uses Alpha Strike, it's easy to hit him with skillshots the moment he reappears. When I'm in champion select, I don't worry about Malzahar or Skarner. I worry about the team as a whole. If there are 2 or more tanks, that's 2 less champions that I can get a quick reset from. If the team has 5 hard CCs spread between them, I'll have a hard time because I can't avoid that much CC. I can't kill champions like Ahri because they're too mobile. Stopwatch will dick me over if I'm not prepared for it, because it disrupts my attack and prevents me from getting a reset. He's also hard-countered by stealth, untargetability, dodges and blinds, and invulnerability. Which were once rare, but almost all new champions have one of these.
: Lol Idk man there is a rune that literally gives you true dmg, so I dont think its that major. Especially considering the fact that he gets free ad, attack speed with his ult along with movespeed. He is able to get into fights easy, invunerability and speed. He doesnt need anymore free dmg that makes him impossible to build against. He is similar to jax, there is nothing you can do really when he gets rolling. Magic dmg is better but after that he doesnt need anymore buffs.
Master Yi is a balanced champion and you can't nerf him that hard without buffing him. "He has a lot of damage and mobility" isn't really and argument when lots of champions have comparable mobility or do almost as much damage. But they all get way more range and utility than he does.
Jack Frost (EUNE)
: Hello mr cowsep. I would like to add this to your comment, as a master yi main myself; Wouldn't the damage removal from E shift him out of the as/onhit effect playstyle?
He doesn't mean to remove *all* the damage from E. Damage is all that spell is good for.
: master yi one-trick justifying his only champ he can play. Yikes. Also orbwalking isn't a skill, it's a requirement to play a melee champ. So that goes any possible skill ceiling he has. Another point you're why conqueror got nerfed another point melee hyper carries offer zero interaction with the game if you blow tanks up in 4 autos and squishies in 3 with two whole items your input isnt valid.
I mean if he's the only one bothering to play Yi in high elo, it says a lot about the champion.
: Just remove the true dmg he doesnt need that and he can be properly balanced.
You could maybe downgrade it to magic damage. But you'd have to buff him a lot to compensate for a large nerf like that.
: Riot, I just want you to know how much anger and frustration odyssey missions do.
Yes this missions system was not thought through. It causes soooo much arguing in champion select, only to surrender as soon as the game starts. Onslaught is unplayable without a premade.
: I want more justifiable reasoning than a one sentance context for your balance changes, Riot.
Most of those champions were buffed because Riot wants them to appear in Worlds. Simple as that. They're exciting picks (if they're not picked/banned every game) and Riot figured they wouldn't be OP in soloqueue if they were just a bit stronger.
Vhan8765 (NA)
: When Hextech Crafting was introduced, disenchant rates were 33%. When last preseason hit, Riot claimed they would be giving out more free loot and because of so decided to cut disenchant rates down to 20%. Now, I have absolutely no clue where this 'more free loot' was supposed to be coming from, but now'a days it takes roughly 4/5 disenchanted skin shards to simply upgrade 1 permanent skin. The system is overall a free rewards system, so you can't complain too much, but it's definitely a (super, mega) long term free rewards system. Feels kind of bad considering you're encouraged to have a smaller champion pool, meaning you likely won't be getting too many S' and chests on various champions.
Events these days have some pretty impressive loot, like the Ziggs skin shard and Orbs.
: Riot only wants you to play about 20 champions to climb. All others are feeder
There will always be champions better than others. Champions with many favorable matchups, champions that are the best at what their class does, etc. As it stands though, the gap between the best and worst champions isn't actually that large. You can play pretty much anything in soloqueue.
: Yeah let's give him an easier chance at hypercarrying by blowing through the jungle and stat checking the enemy because he outlevels them and with gold.
??? I didn't say to make him kill *monsters* faster. Just lane minions.
: Cuz it just doesn't make sense for him to have that without having to itemize stuff like Tiamat or Statikk for it. Like for god's sake Yorick is literally a dedicated splitpusher and he clears waves slower WITH a Tiamat than Yi does without a Tiamat.
That's just the difference between a full damage glass cannon, and a juggernaut.
: Except one of the issues is when he just split-pushes - as a champion who is fucking _absurd_ when it comes to a 1v1 (in that anyone who isn't a fed as fuck assassin can't fight him during his R), the last thing I would justify him having is the ability to split-push efficiently, especially someone who dispatches of opponents with a speed that Zed and Talon could only dream of. Yi is fine as he is. Until he gets reworked, he should 100% stay just on the under-side of viable, and that isn't even that bad or an all-inclusive case considering he still breaks the game if the enemy fails to take enough CC.
Well if the mana cost was raised to compensate, then at least the Yi player would have to choose between fast waveclearing and saving mana for multiple Alpha Strikes.
Terozu (NA)
: The strategy is dead because of the Nerf. If they revert it the strategy will come back with a vengaence.
Riot recently made a change, that champions with smite get reduced gold from minions if they're ahead of their teammates in CS. I'm almost certain funneling is dead forever, you only get like 5 or 6 gold per minion.
: Personally, I would like it if the base damage was nerfed but the bonus damage minions/monsters was buffed. That way he can have his awesome waveclearing but he won't be as scary in duels and late game.
That's... doable, I guess. But I'd be concerned about making Master Yi almost 100% rely on basic attacks like that.
Wilyum (NA)
: Him not being able to split push as well early is a good thing. Nothing worse than a level 6 Master Yi killing you then immediately taking your tower cause he shoved the wave so fast. His late game split pushing is fine. He can clear casters with one alpha and kills minions with one auto anyways. Buffing the damage to minions only causes people who die in the lane to lose their towers even faster to an already very strong carry champion. That's just this guys opinion
Riot's [buffing turrets next season](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/aIUyiwdc-preseason-dev-update-number-2) so champions won't be able to take them as quickly.
Saianna (EUNE)
: He's a fighter-assassin, half of your points make no sense beyond telling me that you really like playing him and you want him buffed no matter what. And you know what? whatever mate... Want him buffed, whatever sure. Lets continue this bulshittiery untill game collapses under its own stupidity. Don't come crying if the next one to get yet another set of buffs is some Yi counter than destroys him even faster now, just cause some Kadexe_ver2.0 managed to get his fiora or whatnot buffed.
Why do you even care how much damage he does to minions? Only Yi players noticed any difference after that nerf. And I already said in the main post that we'll accept a nerf in exchange, I even said as much in the title.
: > [{quoted}](name=Kadexe,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HAnqrQTv,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-10-01T17:33:20.476+0000) > > I understand that this is a small change that won't solve core problems of Master Yi's design, but it's hard enough to get a little change like this upvoted. I could post a full rework, but realistically the Gameplay community would reject anything that isn't totally underpowered just because Master Yi's weaknesses aren't clear to them. > > I don't mean to say that lower mana costs aren't appreciated, it's just that any little increase in his difficulty would make him a healthier champion in low elo. I don't know what defines champions as health. Maybe more so as "acceptable" Was Master Yi healthier when he had bonus damage to minions? I think if Riot is suppose to work on YI they have to focus on the points I mentioned - better duelist, better teamfighter, greater way to outplay his opponents and some better ganking and escape tools in his kit. For instance most of the time when Yi outplay his opponents is because of Alpha Strike Many champions have no bonus damage to minions yet they do pretty well in higher elo
>Was Master Yi healthier when he had bonus damage to minions? Yes because it made toplane Yi semi-viable, it was his power budget being used on something other than damage, and a minor amount of utility.
: Like {{champion:19}}
I don't think old Warwick was deleted, but rather expanded upon. Most of the features he had are still there.
: Master Yi doesn't need a nerf on his meditate, he needs power taken out of his ultimate. His ultimate is loaded, giving him almost 2.5 attack speed by mid game (depending on if you build the classic yi aka. bloodrazor, rageblade, bork), immunity to slows, a reset mechanic, and move speed. That is his bread and butter, I would be ok with a buff elsewhere but he needs his ultimate nerfed if there is even a thought about buffing elsewhere. Also, don't post saying "We the Master Yi mains have made a humble request", you're posting this on your own behalf. If you did ask other Yi players, give a link to the community (Discord, Reddit, etc.) because you're just putting words in all the master yi main's mouths.
To address your point about Highlander, I somewhat agree. It's really strong, to the detriment of his basic abilities. I feel so useless without my ult. I'd love to take off a chunk of the movement and attack speed and put it on a basic ability.
: > [{quoted}](name=Kadexe,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HAnqrQTv,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-01T16:56:07.993+0000) > > It's not 'odd complexity,' I'm just trying to fix some feast-or-famine issues Master Yi has. And sometimes difficult problems require complicated solutions. I'm not really considering on-hit vs crit because both builds feature a lot of attack speed and have focus on basic attacks. > > Also, Master Yi absolutely scales with Crit. His damage is 90% basic attacks, and Double Strike and Alpha Strike can both crit. Perhaps it's crit itemization that fucked over crit Yi. But then again, on-hit has always been the "strongest" Yi in a sense. They put those crit scalings, sound good on paper but in the end, on-hit is still superior. The only thing crit has over on-hit is instant squishy nuking from fog of war, which has been nerfed with IE changes. To top it off, on-hit can pull off very similar amount of burst compared to crit just by stacking, and not just to squishies. A stacked conq/rageblade Yi can flash, get a few attacks in, Q and get a few more attacks in. Applying ~more than 10 procs of all his on-hits in just about a second or 2. That's pretty much "nuking" already, on top of the superior sustained damage. Crit stopped being the better build since they introduced the phantom hit mechanic.
Crit honestly isn't bad at all right now. You just rush Stormrazor instead of Infinity Edge right now, run a more bursty rune like Hail of Blades or Dark Harvest, and from there build like any other ADC. The great thing about crit is that you don't have to stack anything, you're at full power at all times and can fight without worrying about such things. On-hit has always been the more reliable build, but crit has a niche. It's the best build for dealing with squishy, high-damage teams.
: Oh no, a game where the enemy team countered you. Wonder what other champions that shows up on? Right now, Yi's only "counters" are point-and-click CC champs since trying to aim shit at Yi is faulty at best. You _have_ to build against Yi not in items but in team-comp instead, and it makes the entire game anti-fun for both sides when you can pretty much win a teamfight, have used pretty much all your shit, and have one asshole on a point-and-click champion just rush in and clean up off resets with a free untargetable ability. I'm not going to argue that he's OP. I will argue that he is cancerous to deal with and makes the game feel fucking awful when you're staring at a ticking time-bomb that loves to split-push and make the game feel even worse than just his presence allows for. He's like if Tryndamere didn't require his undying ult and instead just immediately deleted anyone that came close.
And you know not all teams are 3 assassins, Brand support, and Ezreal ADC, right? Champions always get more CC when they're reworked, so now it's not unusual for teams to have 5 different hard CCs.
Saianna (EUNE)
: all you've had said is obvious, as Yi in teamfight works exactly like any assassin. Considering his dueling potential... This is just bad argument as it works pretty much against everyone else (minus malphite). You can't itemize vs Yi, you can't duel Yi unless you are even bigger damage-creeped monstrum and in the end his only weakness is "gangbang the living shit out of his ass untill he can't walk straight". Or "let him go in first like a total idiot" Here's the thing. You yourself said playing Yi isn't easy. And if one knows the basics of playing squishy fighter/assassin, one knows that: NEVER EVER go in first. Yi goes in once at least 1 enemy is half-HP, so he could work with his alpha-resets. What you propose "group up" is useless as he won't go in for untill your team gets smashed by tank and your ranks will get in all directions. Then he goes in and the whole second or 2 from stopwatch won't save you. --- I'm not saying he's bad or EZ-PZ teamfighter. if anything I'd say he's like tryndamere. Awesome duelist or small-skrimisher. But teamfight potential is pretty shitty for fighters standards. Assassin-wise he's just perfect, though. Anyways, you ask Riot to let Yi do more than he does, which is fine be me. But man... You can't keep everything. If you want Yi splitpush, then yo have to pay with something, otherwise we'll have splitpushing monstrum that will win any 2v1 fights just cause of his fighter/assassin design. Needless to say, if you can't push a splitpusher back, things tend to get kinda stupid.
Master Yi already pays a *LOT* for his dueling ability. 1) His early game is terrible because he has such limited ganking ability. 2) He has no CC, or any utility for his team really. Other champions do way less damage to compensate for the utility they have. 3) He has restrictive mobility (he's not like other champions with dashes that they can use in any direction they want). 4) He's squishy (don't say "but he has Meditate", it's easily interrupted). 5) He has no ranged attacks. To say "Master Yi can't have everything" is absurd. Any high elo player can tell you how little he really has. I'd love to make him a less overwhelming duelist but better at grouping, but that requires a larger rework and I would need a separate post on that.
: This is my personal viewpoint and experience as Yi main For me the issues with Yi as a **Agile Skirmisher** is the poor escape mechanic and poor ganking capability which is the thing needs to be improved. 25% movement speed on **Ultimate** ability is laughable. What tools do I have in Master Yi's kit to gank enemy lanes? What do I do when enemy ganks me? I personally would like to see Master Yi as duelist and teamfighter and less farming oriented --- And exactly what makes you better player when you are managing your mana better? If you are not using your abilities you will get shit tons of harass from laning opponents. No one will allow you to stay on lane and farm. You will use Alpha Strike to clear minion wave then enemies will throw all their abilities on you and die. You need to be more mindful of your laning opponent than clearing minions wave. You should know pretty well that you save Alpha Strike to counter other champions abilities On other hand there are champions like Gnar that also harass you alot with ranged attack and Boomerangs. In that case you are not allowed to farm so you must use Alpha Strike to fight Gnar and use the damage advantage that you have against him. So you are forced to use Alpha Strike more often. Same goes with Lissandra that forces you to use Alpha Strike against her more often. So mana costs reduction comes in handly quite alot for laning Yi. Champions have abilities and should rely on them For a jungle YI mana cost is not a problem even if it was 70-110 because of mana regenerating that provides from the jungle item. For Top Yi however this is huge deal. Up until now I was forced to use mana runes just to be able to stay on lane for longer. Not to mention that there are lots of champion that either have low mana costs or champion with high resource regeneration or resourceless champion who on top of that spam their abilities. Meanwhile Yi mains who play Laning Yi have to deal with insane mana costs of 70-110. So while i am trying to farm in melee form I have to deal with other champions of spamming abilities while my Alpha Strike costs 110 mana. Take Yi vs Gnar for instance. Not only Gnar is harassing you from distance but he also spams boomerangs whenever it is off cooldown. For me mana cost reduction improved lane sustain quite alot. I am able to fight my opponents much frequently without relying mana runes. The miss of bonus damage to minions is not issues for me. Alpha Strike caster minions and finish them off with 1 auto attack
I understand that this is a small change that won't solve core problems of Master Yi's design, but it's hard enough to get a little change like this upvoted. I could post a full rework, but realistically the Gameplay community would reject anything that isn't totally underpowered just because Master Yi's weaknesses aren't clear to them. I don't mean to say that lower mana costs aren't appreciated, it's just that any little increase in his difficulty would make him a healthier champion in low elo. And I'm not suggesting bringing it to 110 again, 70 or 80 mana would be fine and more than enough to compensate for this buff.
: Oh no, a game where the enemy team countered you. Wonder what other champions that shows up on? Right now, Yi's only "counters" are point-and-click CC champs since trying to aim shit at Yi is faulty at best. You _have_ to build against Yi not in items but in team-comp instead, and it makes the entire game anti-fun for both sides when you can pretty much win a teamfight, have used pretty much all your shit, and have one asshole on a point-and-click champion just rush in and clean up off resets with a free untargetable ability. I'm not going to argue that he's OP. I will argue that he is cancerous to deal with and makes the game feel fucking awful when you're staring at a ticking time-bomb that loves to split-push and make the game feel even worse than just his presence allows for. He's like if Tryndamere didn't require his undying ult and instead just immediately deleted anyone that came close.
Okay but we're simply asking for a buff to his waveclear, not his damage or mobility or anything that would make him pentakill easier.
: Yes i agree this one simple change killed a whole playstyle (Top Lane Yi) you can nerf something else in his kit like mana? W buff nerf? if you feel he might be OP but i dont want to see Top Lane Yi dead D:
At first I was thinking they could just raise the mana cost, but Riot could conceivably revert the damage reduction buff. Or do some other random little nerf. I've suggested more clarity on Alpha Strike, like putting an indicator on the champion he targeted so enemies know where he will reappear.
: Master Yi doesn't need a nerf on his meditate, he needs power taken out of his ultimate. His ultimate is loaded, giving him almost 2.5 attack speed by mid game (depending on if you build the classic yi aka. bloodrazor, rageblade, bork), immunity to slows, a reset mechanic, and move speed. That is his bread and butter, I would be ok with a buff elsewhere but he needs his ultimate nerfed if there is even a thought about buffing elsewhere. Also, don't post saying "We the Master Yi mains have made a humble request", you're posting this on your own behalf. If you did ask other Yi players, give a link to the community (Discord, Reddit, etc.) because you're just putting words in all the master yi main's mouths.
https://www.reddit.com/r/YIMO/comments/9jyfh1/can_we_pull_together_to_get_q_nerf_removed_from/
Paroe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Kadexe,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HAnqrQTv,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-10-01T16:13:15.053+0000) > > I've thought about reworking Alpha Strike. Light changes such as changing how its cooldown works. Like, the purpose of resets is > > 1) to limit how strong he is in a 1v1 (because resets don't really help you if your only opponent is dead, except if you're turret diving) > > and 2) to let him Alpha Strike more frequently in teamfights of 4-5 enemy champions. Alpha Strike is how he stays alive. > > You could instead replace it with a system that rewards Master Yi with a lower Alpha Strike's cooldown for Alpha Striking 4 enemy champions (If you did this though, Alpha would have to be changed to prioritize champions to be reliable). > > Like, for 6 seconds Alpha Strike would become "Omega Strike." Omega Strike would have a 3 second cooldown (still reduced by basic attacks) but deal no damage to champions. The reason for dealing no damage is so that Yi players don't just Alpha Strike a team to death, he has to be auto attacking (and targetable) to deal damage. Instead of dealing damage, Omega Strike would mark enemies to take extra physical (or magic?) damage from one basic attack. Because I still want to reward Yi for hitting multiple enemy champions with Alpha Strike. > > Sorry for the tangent. I think Alpha strike is a relic of the past where riot enjoyed the concept of multiple playstyles and build paths. Nowadays, while crit is still "viable" it is NOT meant for champions who dont inherently have crit scaling like yasuo and tryndamere. Master Yi is 90% on-hit because of that. Reworking Alpha strike to BE more beneficial to on-hit builds will just be modernization, and your ideas for Yi dont take into consideration anything that Yi does to add odd complexity that doesnt make sense.
It's not 'odd complexity,' I'm just trying to fix some feast-or-famine issues Master Yi has. And sometimes difficult problems require complicated solutions. In this case I created Omega Strike because Master Yi needs a lot of untargetability to survive a teamfight, but simply allowing him to Alpha Strike so much would create serious counterplay problems. I'm not really considering on-hit vs crit because both builds feature a lot of attack speed and have focus on basic attacks. Also, Master Yi absolutely scales with Crit. His damage is 90% basic attacks, and Double Strike and Alpha Strike can both crit.
Saianna (EUNE)
: tbh the amount of true/mixed damage he has does put him into "OP/annoing/difficult to deal with" category. He's not braindead simple to play though. The fact that the counter-play vs good Yi is only a "stun" shows that. Him instantly clearing a wave past 10 minutes by alpha striking is tad too much for what he already has. He'd have to sacrifice some of his power somewhere else.
The main counterplay against Master Yi is grouping. If you're with your team and have an item like Stopwatch, you're almost untouchable. You can also beat him by making plays in the early game, pre-6 he's rather useless to his team.
Paroe (NA)
: What if Alpha strike was just... reworked in general? What if it worked on charges, and using the ability consumed all available charges? What if each charge automatically targeted an enemy in range (prioritizing enemies who havent been hit yet), performing an empowered basic attack while being untargetable and unstoppable?
I've thought about reworking Alpha Strike. Light changes such as changing how its cooldown works. Like, the purpose of resets is 1) to limit how strong he is in a 1v1 (because resets don't really help you if your only opponent is dead, except if you're turret diving) and 2) to let him Alpha Strike more frequently in teamfights of 4-5 enemy champions. Alpha Strike is how he stays alive. You could instead replace it with a system that rewards Master Yi with a lower Alpha Strike's cooldown for Alpha Striking 4 enemy champions (If you did this though, Alpha would have to be changed to prioritize champions to be reliable). Like, for 6 seconds Alpha Strike would become "Omega Strike." Omega Strike would have a 3 second cooldown (still reduced by basic attacks) but deal no damage to champions. The reason for dealing no damage is so that Yi players don't just Alpha Strike a team to death, he has to be auto attacking (and targetable) to deal damage. Instead of dealing damage, Omega Strike would mark enemies to take extra physical (or magic?) damage from one basic attack. Because I still want to reward Yi for hitting multiple enemy champions with Alpha Strike. Sorry for the tangent. I'm always thinking about how Master Yi could be a more consistent and less snowbally champion.
: Hope this braindead champion receives even more nerfs. piece of shit aa free zhonya that you "nEdD tO cAlCuLaTe" sure,thank fucking god that you need to actually think about something playing with this braindead fuck.
He's not OP at all, or as braindead as people think he is.
: Just delete the champion.
It's funny that people have continued to request Riot delete champions for 8 years even though they've never done so. The closest they've done is some large reworks.
: ***
No, we're fine with taking a nerf in exchange for the buff.
Rioter Comments
Gildarzt (EUW)
: No, that's not true because right now critics has %, is not a fucking fact, rng does that the damage not be the same always. Statistics says that "in average" with 50% crit you will do half crits half not, but that doesn't mean that in 10 autoattacks (one fight) you will do 5 with crits and 5 without, althought in your system you always do 50% more damage. If yout have the certainty that you will increment your damage then you have to lower the values because that certainty is what makes different from before.
But the RNG of crits is [specially coded to be consistent across multiple attacks.](http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_strike#General) If I get 2 crits in a row with 50% crit chance, then my 3rd attack will have a reduced chance of critting to balance it out. I'm just taking a more direct approach than pseudo-RNG.
Dat Kat (EUW)
: What? are you serious? Katarina was by far the most easily countered champ, yet the most fun to play. Yes she gets kills, but that never really guarantees her win if the enemy team targets her on every tf. She was easily out damaged, out laned, and countered. It all goes down to individual skills and team play coordination. She needed good positioning for a good landing of her kit. What her rework did is strip off the fun factor of playing katarina with a lot more unnecessary challenges to her gameplay. Her combos are slower, less effective, and simply unfit for the assassin role in comparison to other champs within that class. She's not half as fun as she ever was and that really is very sad. I remember just before her rework was even announced, her playrate was pretty low and she wasn't even that much of a ban preference. She wasn't broken at all. Her rework served no purpose as intended what so ever.
Katarina was a simple champion. If she had enough damage to kill one person on your team, then in less than a few seconds the rest of the team would be dead or badly damaged. All her spells were instantaneous except Q, which only took a moment to cast. Riot couldn't balance that.
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Kadexe

Level 32 (EUW)
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