Seems like the armor reduction being percentage should gear it towards a semi niche anti tank item, but instead it has become the go to item for a large range of champions buying it almost every game due to lack of alternatives.

Fizz direction seems to be bringing bruiser fizz back... pls don't.

That is fair... but still does not solve the fact that very few characters have anything written about their sexual preference, and it is hard to do so without it becomming forced. Any number of the champions could be gay, just that jax doesn't come in touch with his sexuality much. Remember a lgbt+ person is not defined by their sexuality.

Varus being gay and evelynn very likely being bi-sexual mean that there are LGBTQ+ character right?

So what should we ask about to summon him?

Seems to me that unless it us somehow related to the lore or personality that there is no good reason to throw in the tidbit that they are not straight. I am honestly quite against doing something like that for the sake of doing it, in a very similar way that many people are also against making characters sexy for the sake of it. Considering that, the lgbtq+ is quite well represented with 2 confirmed (varus. evelynn)and 4 hinted at; against less than 10 confirmed straight champions. Sure there is room for more, but please don't start fleshing out every champions sexuality for no reason.

I would imagine this is the same thing that happens to kled - he basically gets his bonus health on skaarl but it does not count as bonus health for items such as locket. I your engineer finds a solution could you please have him look if the same thing solves kled's bugs?

Any competetive game you say? Well let's take the largest one then: football, (or maybe you would know it as soccer). If you tell a teammate or opponent to kill them selves in a professional game, you either get a large fine, get a red card or possibly fired depending on how big of a name you are. In casual football or semi professional games you will almost always get thrown out of the team. If you are repeatedly fronting opponent players and griefing referee decisions you get a yellow card followed by a red card and possible suspension from a number of games. Video games have only recently become online and although there is toxicity there is no reason they cannot follow the same standards normal sports do.

Sure you might have identified a problem. How do you fix it? Gut adc damage? then tanks become beast mode, getting to items spikes faster becomes more important, and the difference between bad and good adc's might even become larger as a result. Riot are dedicating the mid season to mostly adc's for a reason: the work needed to fix them is comprehensive and not something you can do in 5 min. If you have a solution that is 100% waterproof then post it here and I will explain why it has the opposite effect.

It seems the goal of this change is to give laners more to fight over. I personally quite like that but why have caster minions lose so much gold then? To me those seem to be the harder ones to get, so reducing their gold value by more than the melee minions seems counterproductive.

Sure bruisers can get qss... but triforce users mostly want steraks first and if they have no innate waveclear they also need a hydra item or at least a tiamat. That is about 1500 less gold for IE+2 attack speed items so adc can get qss for the same price that the bruisers are getting their core. Now bruisers by definition of using both tank and damage items can go every item in the game. But if we simplify and only focus on IE first adc and triforce bruisers then adc have their pick of 4 different attack speed items and half an additional item while bruisers are stuck with the same 3 core items after which they need armor and possibly magic resist since they only have hp until now. In cases where they snowball they can go qss and full damage but outside of supresses that is the only time you see them going it. So qss rarely comes as anything but 5th or 6th item which games don't go to too often. As you say it is available, but outside of bronze it is not viable, a bit like how lethality or ap vayne is available but not viable. On your support issue: this has nothing to do with itemization and I have no idea why you think it is a negative to have a player that has to do nothing but protect you.

The other side of this argument, and I do believe this is a valid one, is that by costing a lot and outside of tiamat items only giving more damage and hp you are not getting exciting new things you can do with your items. The classical tri force + steraks + hydra gives burst + anti burst + waveclear. Meanwhile adc get their choice of a few different types of waveclear or extra range or more dueling power as well as an option to get either tank busting stats, lifesteal, qss for a similar price. Sure bruiser items might give just as good stats for the price but none of them feel exciting outside of the stats they give. I am not saying to make bruiser items cheaper, but an item overhaul like what ap items just got would be nice so there are choices to choose from or each purchase at least feels impactful outside the stat boost.

I am firmly in the opposite camp from OP. Only stacking on champions means that it can be allowed to be a much more balanced item between splitpushing and teamfighting. While I don't mind splitpushing it feels bad to me to have a 3k+ gold item that does nothing if I need to take the teamfight for a late game baron. That said 4 attaks for melee champions are probably a slight bit too much, would personally go with 3 and I would like to see some flat bonuses for the stacks so that bruiser like melee champions can use it without feeling the need to go full damage.

I don't play the others enough, but the maokai rework is good. I played him both before and after the rework and I like it. Sure you cannot troll and go ap anymore, but that is really all it took away. If they could take away disco nunu I would be for that too.

So.... this is a post with 58 upvotes that suggests doing something that is going to be fairly labor intensive. Riot cannot just pull a lever and reduce damage by 10%, every champion will have to be tested for bugs and so on. Besides this the poster gives no reason for doing so and considering what boards tend to upvote it is unlikely to be because he wants marksmen to be better. So do tell me: am I wrong in this case?

Don't use logic. It might frighten them, just watch them from afar and wonder at the curiosity they are.

With the split in stats do you expect the precision tree to become open enough for bruisers that don't use attack speed that this might become an option or should they still be looking for other keystones?

On the new rune: 1. How much do you expect this to compete with press the attack? And if it does what will be the levers to separate the two? 2. Part of the reason for this rune seems to be wanting to give divers a better keystone, but what if the attack speed given from precision proves to be a big enough reason for many divers to not go it at all? Sorry if these sounds like a loaded questions, but I feel they are valid concerns.

I feel like there is going some pathfinder into this? or is it just me?

Mages are getting an item diversity change. Would be good to hear about other classes this could be considered for. Melee damage dealers in general seem to be missing some of it, especially the divers, but I would really like to hear your thoughts on it since I don't think there is an easy way to fix it since their items often time are very wierd in requirements.

If you want a guesture that means something, simply write a well formulated thread on it. Sure it might not get a reply, but if you write well enough there is a good chance a rioter sees it.

As a side note: When using excel or the like the function =SUMPRODUCT(C2:C23;E2:E23)/SUM(E2:E23) gets a weighted average of column C with weights given in column E. I noticed you wrote each cell individually a lot so thought you might like some shortcuts for the future.

I Agree. But In this case divers are especially hard hurt as juggernauts only really need black cleaver and can then build whatever they want giving them build diversity, they also bully tanks and a few other matchups like divers, giving them a good opportunity to snowball, especially considering they have an easier time trying to fight 1v2 when fed. Divers has none of that, and are even missing a keystone at the moment meaning that the differentiation becomes very important in the current state. My argument is to get them to the same state as juggernauts, in strategic niche and item diversity as juggernauts.

Mostly correct. I wanted to make the point that we need to look mostly for winrates and nothing else. Now there are a lot of things influencing winrates so it is hard to get a proper read without having tons of data... which unfortunately only riot has. Second point is making a difference between subclasses of fighter. That is splitting juggernauts (that are doing well) and divers (that are doing poorly) into different categories. Juggernauts have a winrate of 50.7 with only specialist above them, and are doing great. Divers have a winrate of 50.12 and are only above marksmen, tanks and mages. If you take away ornn and gnar, both champions dominating the scene but hard to play leaning to high play rates, but low winrates tanks overtake divers as well. This is getting a bit off track however as the original statement was not: "Divers are underpowered", but that "divers have several design problems currently". Note: I do not include rengar or diana as fightes as I believe they fit the skrimisher type better (a subtype of slayer).

> [{quoted}](name=TehNACHO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tPb14TYH,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-06T00:47:05.474+0000) > > Yeah, that's noise for the fact that Lolalytics isn't perfect. You can see this in the Pick or Ban Rate statistics which I lift directly off of the Champion statistics. Not a calculation error, just a Lolalytics error. I even call it out right there in the spreadsheet. "Noise" Let us call it that. To me it looks like a massive artifact, but ok. > You need to explain what you mean by "punishes for high playrates". High playrates account for how often a champion is played, and winrate shows how much a champion wins based on those games played. Influence then is the % of games won out of every game, including the ones not present. Taking your example, if a champion has a 50% winrate and is present in 90% of all games, what of those 10% of games. That's where the 45% comes from. 50% of 90% of 100%. It makes it look like high playrate roles are doing well in the meta. In my example all the champions are doing equally well but would score different influence percentages. While the lolalytics might not have perfect data, here we have 100% perfect data and your influence adds up to 50% in total with the first champion taking 45% of those. > I mean I could do that if I had the free time. Lolalytics also lists matchups which means if I had enough time or manpower to put everything together we could get those statistics as well. Matchup data on lolalytics does not have nearly enough datapoints. You would need 1000 datapoints for each matchup at least before you can begin calling it significant considering a difference a of couple of percentage points difference in winrate means a lot. > Noise. > > You're nitpicking or completely misunderstanding at this point dude. What is your point then? All I am seeing is you saying "this gets played a lot, so it must be good". I am making the point that your influence score is completely dominated by the pick rate (popularity) and has close to nothing to do with winrates (how well the champion is doing).

Nerfing crit will only reduce snowball from adc's. Sure that is something but it is not the reason top lane is in a bad state. It just means that they take longer time to die. If you want to improve the impact of toplane make it more volitile and snowbally. If the game can be decided by which top laner smashes the other junglers will be forced to up there to make sure his toplaner is not getting smashed or trying to smash the other toplaner. By making it more snowbally you also increase the amount of times that an out of control toplaner takes over the game. The easiest way to do that is likely making bruiers more common as they are snowbally by nature and nerfing the early tankiness of tanks so they cannot expect to sit in lane and do nothing.

It does not add up to 100% because you have made an error. If you do something statistically and you expect 100% while it only almost goes there, something has gone wrong. In an extreme example we have 3 champions: one with a pickrate of 90%, one with 9% and one with 1%. They all have 50% winrate. Going by influence we see that the first champion has 45%, then 4.5% and then 0.5% for a total of 50% influence and the fact that champion 1 looks to be extremely much better than the others. Yes I know 3 champions is impossible and that we have more in LoL... but this is an example. Once again: your influence system punishes for high playrate, and fails at fairly accounting for it. As a last thing: if you want to look at the relative power of the classes you need to look at their winrates against eachother. Do fighters do well against tank? Or only other fighters? Your spreadsheet shows no such information since it is hard to get unless you get it directly from riot. Also note that your pick rate adds up to 192.6%... so you are missing some data since it should be 200% with each team having a toplaner. Considering that you go as low as 0.10% that would mean that if the rest is evenly split among other champions and that they each have 0.0999... repeating pickrate we would need 74 more champions like that leading to 137, 3 more than there actually are; and this is assuming best case scenario. End result is that there is something wrong with your data.

I do like this approach but I still feel like there is too much anti snowballing in place for divers to realistically go off. Granted it will alleviate some problems, and I would not be opposed to waiting to see what it does, before making additional changes. But I do believe there are deeper problems.

Now to begin with I am not talking winrates, since you can always buff numbers on champions that are doing poorly and all of a sudden we have skarner with 60+% winrate while still having a lot of design problems. If we wanna create long term stable solutions we need to attack the fundamental problems. But since you are talking statistics: As someone that works on statistics on a daily basis there are a couple of things wrong here: Most importantly being that you assume that each role has an equal size or that the addition of additional champions in a role will only be played by people already playing that role, and only playing that role. This skews your statistics in favor of larger impact from the largest group, the fighters. If we divide it by number of members of that class, effectively gaining the average contribution per champion in each class we get: 1,49% for fightes 0,74% for mages (low number stems from some champions being rarely picked) 0,18% for marksman 2,24% for slayers 2,07% for specialists 1,76% for tanks. Now fighters are doing the worst outside of marksman and mages. This is once again an innaccurate representation as you can see by looking at the stat for mages where some champions has a less than 0.5% share of the picks but still gets counted with the same weight as the others. Instead lets look at winrates, as some champions gets played a lot even though they are weak and therefore would get high influence numbers even if they have a low winrate, as the winrate goes between 43.8% and 52.6% whereas pick rates differ from 0.10 to 14.8, a magnitude of 148 compared to a magnitude of 1.2, meaning that pickrate dominate all your numbers once you include it. Now fighter as a role has multiple subdivisions. Juggernauts (tanky dudes with low mobility and tons of damage) are doing absolutely fine, as are skirmishers (a subdivison of slayer) (squishy, mobile, melee dudes). Camille (diver) Nasus (juggernaut) Darius (juggernaut) Illaoi (juggernaut) Irelia (diver) Garen (juggernaut) Renekton (diver) Urgot (juggernaut) Pantheon (diver) Kled (diver) Yorick (juggernaut) Trundle (juggernaut) Wukong (diver) Aatrox (diver) Dr. Mundo (juggernaut) Jarvan IV (diver) Rengar (skrimisher/diver) Olaf (juggernaut) Mordekaiser (juggernaut) Diana (skirmisher/diver) Udyr (juggernaut) Volibear (juggernaut) As you can see most of the fighters are juggernauts with some divers in between (8-10 out of 22). Juggernauts are doing fantastically but divers are suffering heavily with the main good ones being Kled, rengar (who is mostly build full damage assassin from toplane), and wukong out of 15 champions with a winrate above 51%. Of those only kled is regularly seen top, so rengar and wukong will have higher winrate than normal due to experienced user playing them. Realistically it is only with riot data about experience of playing vs winrate that we can actually do an analysis, not to mention that 3rd party sites often get the specifics of winrates wrong due to incomplete or biased data.

So what you're saying is that we should ban people that didn't watch the interview? (Sorry that was forced)

Bruisers are doing decent after the top lane patch where a lot of them got buffed and bramble vest got nerfed. But fact is still that a lot of them still has no good keystone. I think kled is the one that most misses a keystone, with best keystone being PTA but the stat bonus being useless and best stat bonus being sorcery but summon aery being the best keystone for that tree. With the recent changes to the stat bonus for resolve there has been a move towards grasp of the undying, but the keystone feels underwhelming for kled and does not support his all in playstyle very well.

There are a few mages that would like to go bot, but they need some way to take the marksman role of poking and destroying towers. Cassiopeia comes to mind together with ryze as someone that does not scale too heavily with levels to give up some xp in exchange for safety in lane.

How longterm do you think the 7.24b changes will be for divers? To me it seems like they mostly lack a keystone if they don't want attack speed and end up going comet or summon aery. Do you expect that perhaps the new grasp version might help them a lot? or are we looking at the timeline of making a new keystone?

The locket bug as well.

Is gathering storm outperforming scorch? I find that a lot of the games I play are decided very fast so gathering storm kicking in so late seems really bad, but maybe I am mistaken?

What is the optimal keystone for kled? Press the attack feels the best, but he is likely one of the worst fighters to have attack speed on, so I often feel it might be better with another keystone.

After I began writing 'mb' after every failed play, no matter if it was my fault or not, I have seen far fewer toxic games. You don't have to commit harakiri for saying it, or even thinking it was your fault. Just saying it usually takes the burden of your team.

Riot posted some math regarding this, and show that unless you play more than 10 games a day, you get more with the new system, at least for unlocking champions.

But you have no idea how much of the decision was up to fearless. Maybe he was told the overall strategy by other people, and only got to do the balance side of it. Maybe somone under him came up with the idea, implemented it and made it work while he did not have the time to look at everything every team does. Attacking a rioter is not a good thing on the boards and none of the rioters commenting here have the authority to do so, so it gets you nowhere except turning rioters away from what you might think is a useful discussion.

Thing is though... ezreal counters her. She has a 47% winrate against him, which is quite a hard counter... so when the highest winrate adc counters the second highest one and the next adc is 7% point lower in winrate, something is wrong.

I would argue that a word should not change just because we assume a new political agenda. Even if that political agenda turns out to be true (which this one might), that does not mean we should abandon or change the meaning some words have had historically. You can argue that we should, but enforcing change in culture or language is not something that should be done trivially I think.

I think it has been mentioned multiple times how you want there to be multiple paths for each role, but as of right now there are only a few exceptions to the rule that divers do not have a good keystone rune. Some of them can use press the attack but it feels better on marksmen and the attack speed it gives to go precision is also mainly good for melee carries and ADC's. I believe this is a problem that can be solved in many ways so: * Are we going to see a systematic buff for press the attack on melee users? They will still feel awful about the attack speed they have a hard time using. * Are we going to decouple the stat bonus from the main tree and change it to the secondary tree instead? This is almost guaranteed to make it so the stat bonus governs the choice for second tree and makes it impossible to have keystone runes at different power levels. * Are we going to buff all the nerfed divers? We could, but the moment a good keystone comes around in the domination or sorcery tree, they will all go for that instead, and it would take a long time to individually buff an entire class. * Are we modifying an existing rune in domination/sorcery for divers? I could see this working. Summon Aerie is already seeing some succes on champions like camille, but the description of the tree does not line up with what divers want. It is however a strong rune currently so there is not much room to buff it without making some champions OP. Maybe a lower internal cd (currently 2 seconds) but slower travel speed could work. This will limit the buff to only melee. I know I make the last option seem the most appealing, but I do believe there is a large downside in divers having sorcery as their to go tree. So I am curious what riot's opinion on this is.

Last season I was more or less a Maokai otp... because that is what my premades needed and he was meta anyway. This seson I decided that I wanted to play Irelia, kled and camille as I did before, but all of them (maybe outside of Irelia) just seems so weak on new runes. To me all divers seem to have lost a lot as there are no sustained damage keystones for melee champions that are not hyper carries. I really hope they just decouple the stat bonus from the main tree and be done with it, but as it stands now I bet that most divers are not looking great outside of maybe jax and irelai.

You would need to play more than 10 games daily for this new player to get it slower with the BE system. It has always taken a long time to get all champions, with levels it has just become easier to quantify it.

So what is the feeling on divers? I generally feel like press the attack is the preffered keystone on them, but it feels like a lot of its power budget is on the extra damage buff applying to teammates as well, not to mention that a lot of divers do not care too much about attack speed (kled and camille come to mind, with camille especially not having any keystone that feels good to take). I do feel like Aerie might end up being decent on divers but the 2 seconds internal cd is harsh, although I understand it cannot be 0 seconds to avoid abuse maybe 1 second could be possible?

How are divers as a class looking? To me it feels like a lot of them mostly want press the attack as their keystone rune, but does not really care about the extra attack speed (Camille and kled as the clearest examples). Camille especially feel really bad due to her large amount of true damage which PtA does not increase. I feel like a keystone in domination/sorcery that is good for sustained damage or one in precision that gives AD/AP instead of attack speed would be really nice. I imagine those take a long time to create though.

W seems to also do damage, she is going to be a lichbane user, and her q has very low range unless she comboes with her ult which means she puts herself in danger. Not something an artillery mage wants. If anything her closest comparison is leblanc... who definitely is a burst mage.

The armor sumarai wore was much less advanced than the european mideaval knights plate armor. I would think we can assume garen is of the latter type and therefore katana not being good against it.

Remember that the boards are a very biased sample, meaning that it is impossible to gain any kind of scientific results based on polls made exclusively here. If this is for a school project you can probably get away with saying that the results may be biased.