: Marksman changes coming to PBE in the next couple days
Hey Axes, this is more of a technical question: What kind of critical hit chance system does League use? - Just a normal random number gen or, - gauss/laplace random, - A PDR (pseudo random distribution), aka. "stacking" critchance, - a PID calculation, - some other version? I'm especially interested in this, to reduce the "dangerzone" of the RNG of crit chance (from 20%-50%) to a minium without sacreficing the "random" aspect. ______ Regarding the item changes: Introducing even more true dmg is pretty dangerous because there is not much of a counter except stacking HP, which lowers the varity of tanks even more. And Adcs normally are already so good vs tanks that they dont even build their AntiTank item and now your making it better vs squishys too. The idea to make them less bursty vs squishys is a good idea, but this changes the overall balance, so its not easy to predict what will happen. Lower early/fleet sustain is a good change! I'm looking forward to the changes to crunch a bunch of numbers and scenarios and come back to you if things go downhill :P
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 25
Regarding Syndra: Why not introduce a special mechanic for her R, that if she missed all of her abilities, her R deals reduced dmg. Concrete: "-30% dmg, if the target hasnt been hit by her Q or W+Q or E+Q (by a Q-based ability) in the last 4 seconds" Why I am suggesting this? Because it feels extremely shitty, if you sucsessfully outplayed her and dogded everything thrown at you (which is not that easy with most champs), and still get 1-shotted because she pressed R. For a high skillcap Champion like Syndra, this doesnt feel right, hence my suggestion. You should be punished for missplays/geting outplayed. A Lux can do 0 Dmg if she misses everything, but a Syndra always does dmg (and its still pretty decent dmg, even factoring in my -30% suggestion) Ontop this suggestion also only touches the absolut worst case possible, and leaves the rest (~95+%) of all the cases untouched. So there should be no to minimal impact in general, but giving a reward for actually managing to dogde everything.
Meddler (NA)
: Yeah, Crit does run on a pseudo random system. Your chance to crit initially is equal to the displayed value. The more the amount you crit diverges from the expected value though the more your future crit chance will get adjusted until it gets back close to expected values. If you've got a Zeal, and have got a string of crits in a row for example your chance of critting will be somewhat below 20% as a result. Or if you've got an IE and a PD and had a whole run of non crits your crit chance will be higher than 50% and continue to rise if you keep not critting. Having said that, it's not a dramatic change over a small number of attacks. Two non crits when at 50% chance to crit won't give you a massively increased chance on your third shot. It's more a system intended to counteract more extreme streaks over a larger number of hits.
Oh wow, thats a rather different system than I expected! I know about PRD that lowers your intial crit chance ( 50% -> only 25% on your first aa) but then it ramps up, so you get more and more crit chance until you crit and it goes back to the inital lowered critchance. (25% on first aa -> no crit, 50% on your 2nd aa -> no crit, 75% on your 3rd aa etc.) In this version there is no "lowering" after a crit row, because its already at a lower inital chance. I know is rather bad to give all the data at hand, since "holes"/exploids could be found, but could you give me an example by how much it would increase/decrease at 50%? potentionally per crit/non-Crit aa? That would be really awesome :D
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 28
A very technical question regarding Marksmen and their Crit-builds: Did you guys modifiy the C value of the PRD algorythem? Especially, if you introduced a mechanic to lower the inital crit value after crits in a row? I would love to know that, if possible. It is sadly basically impossible to test for those things by myself, I tried it :/ This serves the purpose to create a fairer crit system/rng, while it still beeing random! Thanks in advice :D
: Congratulations on such an amazing post! Here are my thoughts on its components: > [{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=voeyqoFA,comment-id=000e00000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-02-21T03:58:13.836+0000) > > As you already mentioned, the game is already pretty complex. The "boringness" of AAs can mostly get removed by abilities, mechanics and the overall kit/theme of a champion. I very very much agree that crit could potentially be removed from the game, and isn't as essential as many think. Sure, removing crit would require a rebalancing to many marksmen and some melee carries, but stats like attack speed and attack damage have much more room to be increased here. Even if those aren't what get targeted, champion kits are the perfect spot to add in more power, especially more conditional power unique to each champion. > [{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=voeyqoFA,comment-id=000e00000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-02-21T03:58:13.836+0000) > > Like stated before: crit chance is **not** pure random, this is very important! > It uses PRD (pseudo random distribution), which is a very big improvement in terms of "fairness". To sum it up it looks at your previous attacks and modifies your critchance, instead of beeing completely independent, to get an overall more equal and less spikey outcome. This too I think is critically important (/pun). As unfair as crit can _feel_, its actual power is regulated to limit the impact of extreme luck, so at the end of the day it's basically a less clear/consistent way of adding burst onto every few attacks. > [{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=voeyqoFA,comment-id=000e00000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-02-21T03:58:13.836+0000) > > Crit chance does not only lower the "boringness"/"predictableness" of AAs by a bit, its made in a way that gives very rewarding visual feedback! This is true, though I think this is also somewhat dampened by the fact that crit usually gets stacked to very high amounts, normally 80%. It definitely feels like an awesome burst of damage when it happens less than half the time (when it's at its most unstable), but past a certain point crits just end up being "normal" damage per attack for marksmen, causing crits to either become unimpressive, or become so overly prevalent that crit users end up outputting burst per second. > [{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=voeyqoFA,comment-id=000e00000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-02-21T03:58:13.836+0000) > > If you invest in crit chance, the first amount (<=30) is roughly wasted combat stats. Why? Because its still to unreliable! > You cannot count on getting the amount of crits you "should" get, in short trades. If you always bet on your luck, it will backfire someday. This too I agree with, and while I think that is somewhat intentional (Riot doesn't want fighters as a whole class to build crit for some reason), I agree that the current way crit is implemented means there's always this intermediary period where critical strike is really unstable, even with a PRNG controlling its outliers. > [{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=voeyqoFA,comment-id=000e00000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-02-21T03:58:13.836+0000) > > In the early laningphase 1 or 2 crits dont decide the hole game or the hole laningphase. The problem is if there are 2-3 lucky crits **in one trade!** I actually feel that even one crit in the laning phase really can determine its outcome in certain circumstances. This is why players used to run 1% crit in their old rune setups on the off-chance that they chunked their opponent in a trade. After the first few levels, it's not as bad, but it can really mess people up in the very first few minutes. I do, however, agree that a streak of luck on either side due to crit is guaranteed to frustrate at least one person, which is why random crit distibution needs to obey strict rules if it wants to appear fair at all times. > [{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=voeyqoFA,comment-id=000e00000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-02-21T03:58:13.836+0000) > > A lot of people suggest to change crit chance into a flat modifier, or something like "every x AA deals more dmg/bonus effect/becomes a crit" etc., or working like fevor, or something along those lines. > _The big problem, a very big problem with all of them, is **abusability!**_ I too think that many proposed systems, including that energized crit system, do have a problem of abusability, though I don't think the ability to _maximize_ the potential of a mechanic is necessarily abusive. If I may shamelessly plug my own suggestion here, I proposed [an alternative crit model](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/voeyqoFA-a-deeper-dive-into-critical-hits-inputdiscussionalternatives-appreciated?comment=0010) that would basically function like the three-hit passives we see on champions like Vayne or Vi: for sure, the mechanic can be optimized through certain types of play, and would likely require caution/rebalancing towards champions who'd be especially good at applying it, but because the means of applying crits would be innately more interactive (the opponent could play around this model as well), I don't think it could really be qualified as abuse. > [{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=voeyqoFA,comment-id=000e00000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-02-21T03:58:13.836+0000) > > If you have 50% crit chance, you actually only have a 25% chance to crit on your first AA! > > If this AA **DIDNT** crit,_ your next AA gets an additional +25% on top!_ > So your 2nd AA has a 50% chance to crit. > If your AA still did not crit, it gets another +25%, so it has a 75% chance to crit in total. > If it still did not crit, it gets +25% again, so we arrive at 100%, which means this AA will guaranteed crit! > > After a crit you will reset back to the initial 25% crit chance. > > In short: We introduce caps to eliminate those outliers that can break "fairness" in shorter periods. We still wand to be random and also dont want to interfere with the normal PRD, we are only touching the troublesome outliers! > These caps force us to have NonCritical AAs or guaranteed Crits based on the actual crit chance. > Remember the amount of crits **IN A SHORT PERIOD** was the big problem we identified. Thats what those caps to fix. I commented a little on this on another reply, but to reiterate, I really like this system. Introducing hard caps to the current pseudorandom number generator, in a manner that wouldn't lend themselves to predictability, would allow the current crit model to feel more consistently fair, without requiring a total overhaul. While I still wouldn't really be a fan of the remaining randomness (the order in which you crit can be important in some fights), I still think this would be a tremendous step forward in establishing a crit system that is less harmful to the integrity of what is meant to be a competitive, skill-based game. Kudos again on the massive and well-written post!
> Kudos again on the massive and well-written post! I very much appreciate it! At first it was just 1 massiv text without much that structure and when I looked at it again, even I wouldnt want to read till the end xD So I had to do some big restructuring, hopefully it was bearable :D ____ > Sure, removing crit would require a rebalancing to many marksmen and some melee carries ... Yes, it definitely would! Which is why riot wouldnt do it in the first place. The amount of work put into it wouldnt be justified by the outcome :/ But some "small" fixes should definitely be fine. Maybe when they look at adcs in general again, then there might be a chance to make some bigger changes, if they would want to do some. ___ >I think this is also somewhat dampened by the fact that crit usually gets stacked to very high amounts, normally 80%. At this point, aka the late game, it IS wanted that crits arent "luck based" anymore! At that point it servers as a flat dmg modifier like most suggestions suggest. You dont want to have luck involed if every AA, every Crit can decide the game ;D Crit chances "anti-boringness" phase is especially designed for the mid game. Where most people have everything availabe, but adcs still lack ether the AS or the dmg to create "interesting" situations. They can use show off all their tools, but the outcome is pretty low at that point. (Remember when it was tank meta where adcs were oblivous because they werent even close to fight tank in the midgame on equal grounds? Thats when botrk and the crit items where buffed!) Crit is mainly there to make this (adc-)midgame "interesting" and later serve as a flat dmg modifier. ___ I havnt seen your suggestion but I surely will check it out! To adress the "abuse"/maximize part: If a champion is balanced around that, that is complettely fine. But it has severe results for the champion, if "normal" people cant reliabley use it, only skilled players. This will create problems like Ryze and Azir! Bad in normal skill range and good in high skill range, or worst in normal and balanced in high. Its easier to remove "abuse" chases than to balance everything around them. So if the champ is balanced around this, its fine, but if this abuse is not the adressed by the overall balance, things can and will get bad! Really bad! ___ For my suggestion: It doenst work wonders, its only designed to remove the worst cases, you still can get pretty unlucky! So it makes things better, but is still 100% (pseudo-) random, just so you dont get your hopes up to high :P And like I said most would never even notice a change. You can still boost your chances but not even close to beeing "abusable". Its pretty nice to actually have a discussion once in a while here on boards xD They are (sadly) pretty rare :/
: Ok, Lissandra really needs a buff.
Shouldnt the new {{item:3003}} be pretty decent on her? First mana recoverey on lvl up, then reduced mana cost + mana stack and 20 cdr. Shouldnt help this liss a decent bit?
: Kai'Sa makes the Void seem boring
When I first heard about another void champion and her beeing a female, I instantely thought about her: https://s14-eu5.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blizzplanet.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fsupreme-starcraft-ii-heart-of-the-swarm-single-player-1.jpg&sp=3aa2be90d861e63a3d8a9b7b69636641 So much potential wasted :/
: Patch Chat with the Playtest Team - 8.4
Hey there, its a big patch so things will always be a bit difficult :D Personally I'm a bit concerned that squishys, especially adcs, might like bone plating a bit to much (150 potential less burst at lvl 18 is alot), maybe some bonus health scaling could help with that. For Ap itemaztion, {{item:3151}} max hp is problematic, on spammers as well as long dots. Im sure you have seen vandrils morde video :D I know it got nerfed after that, but it still does alot of dmg :S Lastly, a more personal thing, I think Chogaths small VGU feels off. Before his Q and E spikes were physical spikes, which made total sense. Now they are these magical glowing spikes, which is basically "magic" and not physical! (also the Q "spikes" bend a bit to much, they look like more like zyra thorns than his spikes.) And all this feels pretty off to me. Its good that he gets some attention but I dont think these changes hit the mark. What do you think about them? (As a sidenode: His range indicators for his Q and W are off by quite a bit, but thats from the devs not you guys :D)
Cactopus (NA)
: Champ Mastery Costs, Masterwork Chests, and Some Loot Buffs
Do you know the situation that if you did well with a champion, which you do not own, aka from the free champ rotation, and you get an S, you will not get a chest. This ok, but it feels not that good, especially if you dont get S marks that often! I propose that you can get champion cost reductions if you get a S/S+ mark! These reduction could be temporary or permant and they dont stack. So if I dont own Ahri and I get to play her when she is in the free rotation, get an S, I will get an 10% BE reduction for her! An S+ might even be 15% (or could also be only 10%). This is mostly aimed at new players who dont have that many champs, and also to reduce the bad feeling of getting basically nothing from good marks on unowned champs. (You dont get mastery points nor the chest). Its just a small thing, but what do you think? Also temporary(1week/month) or permanent? I personally am fine with a 1 month price reduction.
: Beefy topic - but in short. No we did not make changes to top lane because Hashinshin told us to kill ourselves - that's just par for the course being on the Live Gameplay team. Like many players, he has arguments that I/others agree are issues, but just as many other thoughts that I/others don't agree with. We've been talking about the state of top lane for awhile, but as I mentioned in my post on the dev corner sometimes these problems can take longer to solve, because sometimes we need to validate that there is actually a problem. Our runes team has been working on a fighter/bruiser focused keystone since runes launched. It's one of the holes that we acknowledged existed and would need a solution in due course when the system went live. It may have taken longer than we'd like, but it's also relative to the urgency of the problem. Bruisers have been functional in the current meta using a variety of the keystones. The problem right now is that bruiser players don't feel like there is a keystone that's catered to their specific playstyle. Definitely still a problem, but one among a cornucopia that we want to get around to. In regards to top having it's own specific section in the patch notes. That's something that we'd talked about trying to do more of going into this year, "that" being grouping changes up if there was a common trend we could call out. We experimented with it a bit on our 7.24b patch, and liked some of the impact there so wanted to look for opportunities to do it again. That being said, our patch note bros are the ones that decide the overall format of the patch notes, not the Live Gameplay team. They're responsible for taking the output of the work of a patch, and bundling it in a way that they think communicates our goals in the best possible way for players who read them. To phrase this a different way, we didn't go into the patch being "this is the Hashinshin top lane patch", rather we had a designer who'd joined us from another team earlier in January that had been putting thought into top and what you see in the patch is some of the initial outputs of his investigations with more to come in future patches. Gustaf and Aether saw the opportunity to group up that work, so they did. In regards to the sentiment of needing to wish bodily harm on us in order to get us to act, I think a perfect example from this very patch that demonstrates the opposite is the AP itemization rework that we've been working on on Live Gameplay since October. We'd been seeing a lot of dissatisfaction from mage players regarding how stale their itemization felt, and decided to take the project on as something of high value to both open up build diversity, and allow players to feel like they could make more meaningful and interesting decisions in the item system. There was no one wishing us bodily harm because they had to build Morello first every game, nor did we engage with players on the topic before we started the project, but it was something we saw a lot of players talking about so we took action. Maybe in another region there's been a vocal player telling us that AP itemization has been ruining this game for months, and to them they might feel like this patch was driven partly by their sentiment, and you know what, good on them. We have the good fortune of being a game with very passionate players, and if people feel vindicated when something that they feel strongly about in League changes, I'm fine with that. At the end of the day League will likely never be the perfect game for the majority of our players, and as a result people will always complain about the thing that feels most pressing to them. Given that we patch every two weeks, the likelihood of us shipping changes to something that is being talked about by the community is inevitable. TL;DR - When you cut through the weeds Hashinshin has some valid points that we agree with, many that we don't, but we do not change our priorities for League based on what he says (The Jax bugfix being the exception, a designer saw the video, figured he knew the cause and fixed it because that's a shitty thing for any Jax player).
Thanks for your time to clear this up a bit Maple! Good to hear this from a Rioter himself, so we dont need to assume it anymore. Just as a small nudge, to counter this "we must complain to make riot hear us" - mentality, if possible react to some ideas or suggestions that arent based on salty raginess. This mentality is mostly fueled if the community gets "no" reaction from "normal" things. So you can put the wind out off the sails of the mentality ;P (You dont need to overdo it and comment on everything, that is completely unreasonable, but if you see a good idea/discussion, maybe drop your personal stance (definitely say its YOUR OWN stance, just to be on the safe side). A "hmm I like this idea, could fiddle around with it to test if it fits" is already enough! No promises,that it will be implemented, or be the next big feature. Not needed) (Also you will bring attention to such ideas/discussions to get them bigger and likely better in the end :P) (And this is also needed on the current boards, that good discussions/features/ideas are highligthed a bit) (Just a small nudge for a possible idea in the future ;D)
: > First, DeathBurs7 you are saying that CaptainMarvelos brings attention to this problem, or even "creates" this problem by bring up/"confirming" a connection to Hashinshins rant and Riot's actions, especially as a mod. Thats the general gist I'm getting from your words. Yeah, that's a pretty good summary. I wouldn't go as far as to say "create", but definitely "confirm/amplify", yes. > CaptainMarvelous, on the otherhand, wants to bring attention to this, but as a warning for Riot I get the intent. More than that, I agree with the intent. I'm just thinking that in practice, making this thread goes against this stated intent. > The core of the problem at hand is [...] that the **general preception** of Riot tweaking/reacting only to the loudest, rudest complaints. Precisely. The issue at hand here is an issue of perception, not of actual facts. And how do we act on community perceptions? By having influencers (Moderators included) push the other side of the story. NOT by having influencers present the perception as a fact while trying to "warn against it". > I honestly feel like I just should rant over something and not even try to solve it. I understand the feeling. As Sparkle would say, feelings are always valid. The problem is if you act on it and actually make those rants, believing they have more impact. As for me, I don't think they do, but even I can get discouraged some times when a post I put a lot of efforts into die in Gameplay without stirring any good discussion. Even thinking that rants have no impact, or at least less impact than a polite post, I get tempted to make them, just to vent because I'm angry. So I definitely understand where you come from. But that's beside the point here. > In my opinion, Riot needs to be very carefull not to encourge this "rant and only than things will get done" behavior, supporting this actively OR passively! And so what should they have done? I mean, really, it's a lose-lose situation. They shouldn't have made the change to Top lane, just to make sure the community doesn't believe it's because of Hashinshin? That doesn't work. Hashinshin would just have continued his perpetual ranting, and Riot has to make the changes at some point. And whatever point in time they finally do the changes, Hashinshin can claim it's because of him. Riot had no solution except ignoring him and proceeding as they intended. > So this post here is definitely not a problem, the cause or an amplifier of this, it warns Riot about what has happend and that they should avoid it! The problem or a cause, no I agree. But an amplifier? Definitely yes! Look at yourself, you're saying "what happened", you're presenting it as fact. Even though you said yourself it was a problem of perception, even though you're aware of it, you're reinforcing that perception right now. And Capt'n OP did the same. They didn't cause the problem, but they ARE amplifying it. Conclusion is, we're all on the same side here, we all want the same goal. We're just disagreeing on the best way to reach this common goal. All I'm saying is, if you don't want Riot to react to future rants, don't make them look like they did this time.
Dont worry, I always assumed we were on the same page, just the "how good" this was dealt with, is where we diver. Futhermore I can even understand where youre coming from! And I'm also not planning to change over to this "rant" style :D > The issue at hand here is an issue of perception, not of actual facts. And how do we act on community perceptions? By having influencers (Moderators included) push the other side of the story. NOT by having influencers present the perception as a fact while trying to "warn against it". The problem is that we dont know what the actual truth is. Potentionally Hashinshins rage was really the main reason why things got done, beeing someone who got alot of attention, its as understandably possible as him having absolutly nothing to do with it at all. We dont know. The facts are: Toplane was a problem since long, Shin's complains/rants got super popular, and now things got (finally) adressed a bit. So even the mods surely dont know the actual truth, so their opinion is just that, an opinion. They cant "defend" it against something. Only voice concerns, and thats what Marvelous did, in my eyes. He didnt said that Riot tweaked things just because Shin ranted, he said that people would assume they tweaked it because of his rant. And thats the truth. Or it could be that I read that from between the linies, since I do that a lot and others might not have done that. Thats something I dont know. It could be that people, from beeing presented a situation that warns that things could happen in a certain way, that some people assume it actually happend this certain way, is possible! (What a monster of a sentence xD) But this is deeper psychologie. And while it is possible, normally people are smart enough to understand that its just a "warning" that things could be missunderstood in a certain way. So the "warning" initself is not a bad choice, rather the opposite, its there to deescalate things. ____ >And so what should they have done? I mean, really, it's a lose-lose situation. They shouldn't have made the change to Top lane, just to make sure the community doesn't believe it's because of Hashinshin? Yes, they were basically in a lose-lose situation by that time. But they could have avoided it, or atleast not let it escalate in this way. By adressing things earlier, stating something like "no connection"(which would not be completely believed, but its an indication which goes in exactly the right way to resolve/dampen the escalation!!!), or acknowlegding other/"normal" suggestions not just the ranty ones, which they never did. Those things would have helped. Right now they cant do much, especially if he actually did have an impact, which I believe he did in some way, shape or form. But hes definitely not the main reason, at best a catalisator which helps to get things rolling. (Beeing the worst typ of catalisator, they actually should not admit that his doing was some/a decent part for their action. Otherwise this would fuel bad things, as a sidenote). ____ >The problem or a cause, no I agree. But an amplifier? Definitely yes! Thats a bit of a wordplay, this post brings attention to this, it adresses the problem that people think that shin was/could be the main reason for the change, thus we should rant if we want to get heard by riot. He would have amplifed it, in my book, if he said "riot did this because of shin" and not "**people may think**, that riot did this because of shin". Technically yes, "amplified" could be used since it brought more attention to this, but I meant the bad "amplified" which actively supports this "rant => riot action" view :D ___ > Look at yourself, you're saying "what happened", you're presenting it as fact. The "what happend" meant: _"**people think** riot did this because of shin"_, not the _"riot did it because of shin"_ part. And this _"people think riot did this because of shin"_ is a safe call! I myself and Marvelous believe that shin very likely had some impact on riots decision, but is definitely not the main/only cause. While **other people** might think that shins rant is the only reason for the change. And thus getting the _"we should rant to get heard"_ logic, which is bad. So I do think that this thread wasnt a bad idea in general. Do you have an idea how he, a mod, could have done it "better" in your eyes?
: > It paints a picture that this loud outcry was what lead to such a situation... The picture doesn't paint itself. And if you'll allow me to thread the metaphor, you're one of the most prominent and most active artists right now. > First and foremost no, I don't want more Hashinshin-style "FIRE THE BALANCE TEAM" ranting. That is why I made this in the first place. I understand that, no worry, it was very clear from your very first post, but that's precisely my point. In my humble opinion, by making this thread, you won't prevent it from happening, you're just convincing the community that it worked this time. You're actively fighting against your own stated goal. You say you fear he will be seen as a point of contention, but you actively work to create this picture. I've got my own opinions and I'm an informed player myself, but what about that "Jhonny Noob" you mention, what will HE think when he sees a Mod explicitly saying that yes, Hashinshin did have an impact on Riot decision making? ('cause you're more careful in that last comment, but in the OP you DO say explicitly and very categorically that yes, he had an impact) The take-away "Jhonny Noob" will keep in mind isn't "Mod thinks ranting is bad", it's "Mod says ranting worked". And that's also why I keep mentioning your Mod status. As you said, "regardless of how much impact I think he had", the community doesn't really care. But as a Mod, the community does care about what you think and say. If you say he had an impact, you make it true. Mods are players too with their own opinions, but they aren't *just* players. They have more weight and influence, and they should be careful about it. Because of the "Jhonny Noobs". *~insert overused Spiderman quote~*
I would like to butt into this conversation :D First, DeathBurs7 you are saying that CaptainMarvelos brings attention to this problem, or even "creates" this problem by bring up/"confirming" a connection to Hashinshins rant and Riot's actions, especially as a mod. Thats the general gist I'm getting from your words. CaptainMarvelous, on the otherhand, wants to bring attention to this, but as a warning for Riot not to strengthen a policy of "only the loudest complaint will be heared" and thus increased hostility against riot. This includes some correlation between Hashinshins louder/more popular complains and even threats. I, personally, am on Marvelous side, bringing attention to this problem to **_adress_** this problem is absolutly fine. And his "attention-bringing" especially as a mod wasnt the creation of this problem, the problem is far deeper and even the hashinshin stuff is bascially only the top of the iceberg, in my book, but thats another story. The core of the problem at hand is not **IF** Riot did or did not tweak things because of Hashinshins agressive rants, its that the general preception of Riot tweaking/reacting only to the loudest, rudest complaints. Even if Riot 100%ly did not tweak things reactivly to his rants, everyone makes a correlation between a loud rant and (finally) now adressed problem. The "IF" doesnt matter! I also disagree about the "no impact" part, Rioter WILL have heard/seen them and they likely did have an impact! I doubt that it was the main reason for the changes, but it will certainly have had some impact on them. (Which is understandable, they are humans too, recieving literal "deaththreats" is not that easly swepped away from the skin/ brust off) As someone who claims to be a theorycrafter, someone who did alot of research and suggested alot of improvements (even if most of them were pretty small), which beeing so fleshed out that they could be introduced into the game as they are; Even someone like me felt the: _"Why do I even try to stay reasonable and explain my reasoning indepth, if I would just swear and complain in the rudest matter and just add a "do this instead" nothing more?_" On boards the frontpage is dominated by ragey, salty complains, **which dont even TRY to solve the problem they complain ab out!** But atleast they will recieve attention, directely or indirectely from Rioters. (They will know about it even if they dont comment on them) On the otherhand, how many good sugestions never even recieved a tiny bit of attention, heck even less, reactions from someone! I honestly feel like I just should rant over something and not even try to solve it. And THIS is why Riot should try to avoid at all cost! They dont need to implement ever suggestion or something stupid like that, just something as small as a "hey I like your idea, we might fiddle around with it and see if it could work out" is all that is needed! But this didnt even happen once in all this time..... To end this, let me bring it together: In my opinion, Riot needs to be very carefull not to encourge this "rant and only than things will get done" behavior, supporting this actively OR passively! This post from marvelous, imo, does essentially the same thing. We can arguee about the "activ" part shins rant did, but it did bring more attention to a problem, be it in a very bad way. And there was a result, a reaction. So this post here is definitely not a problem, the cause or an amplifier of this, it warns Riot about what has happend and that they should avoid it! Regardless of their actual "intentions" of their reactions.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 21
Hey Meddler, my question is a bit off-topic, sr about that! Its a very, very technical question and I dont know who might be able to answer this, or whom I should ask about this :/ It would be awesome if you could help me with this one! My questions is: Did you guys modifiy the PRD(pseudo random distribution) of crit chance in League? And are you use the standart values for C? I'm trying to do some improvements for crit chance to make it a bit more fair, without removing the "random" part! I did a lot of testing already, but these infos are not possible to obtain by normal testing... So who might be able to help me with this one? Thanks in advice! - LordDesert
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: Should we see DoT champs become problematic, we'll likely be addressing Liandry's first.
Hey PHROXZoN, I'm sorry to get a bit off topic but I dont know who I can ask about this :/ I'm looking for very very technical infos about crit chance in League. I know about the PRD system and all the general stuff assoiciated with it, but I want to know if you guys made some modifications to it? Regarding lowering the inital crit chance after a crit below the c value for example. Who could/ should I ask this? Who might be able to help me with this? I honestly have no idea... I tried to figure it out myself but this kind of data is no something you can test for by normal means. I also didnt find anything in all the patchnotes or other sources... Thanks in advise! Have a great day/night, its 5 am here in EU :D
jadelink (OCE)
: Interesting to know. Yes, the old animation cancel, so he could 'store' a guaranteed crit was annoying, glad that ones truly gone.
Normally the only way to "abuse" the PRD system is if you would have like 20-40% crit chance while still beeing in the laning phase. There you could try to "stack" your critchance on minions a bit and then have a bit better odds vs the enemy champ. But the "abusability" is pretty low, only yasou and tryn should be able to pull it off and even than the "advantage" is not that big! Its miles away from "guaranteed" crits or so :D
: ______ Sooo, I'm finally done with this monster! I hope you enjoyed my old post :D First off, I will put most of the math at the end of this so it doesnt interfere that much and I can keep it a lot shorter that way :D And this comment is writen in a more general style, so guys who want to join our discussion have it easier to catch up. But its still an answer to your comment :P Let's get started! ____ ____ #The Good, the Bad, and the Crit Chance... - **1. Can Crit chance be removed?** - **2. Crit Chance not as bad as it seems?** - **3. The critchance problem** - **4. The problem with most suggestions/ crit alternatives** - **5. Math, Math, Math** - **6. Super short PRD TL;DR:** - **7. My suggestion, a stricter PRD** ___ **1. Can Crit chance be removed?** From a technical standpoint: Yes, definitely! It _is_ possible to remove it. But it might not be that easy! As you already mentioned, the game is already pretty complex. The "boringness" of AAs can mostly get removed by abilities, mechanics and the overall kit/theme of a champion. The removal of (controlled) randomness is also pretty good from a competativ standpoint, as it makes things absolutly fair. So, given a good alternative, crit chance can be removed! Before I go to the suggestions to replace critchance, I will quickly sum up some positves and its problem, for completions sake. ____ **2. Crit Chance not as bad as it seems?** Like stated before: crit chance is **not** pure random, this is very important! It uses PRD (pseudo random distribution), which is a very big improvement in terms of "fairness". To sum it up it looks at your previous attacks and modifies your critchance, instead of beeing completely independent, to get an overall more equal and less spikey outcome. I will explain it later with "some" (a ton of) math later. So to make it clear: Its not completely random, it already eliminats a big amount of bad cases, bad outliers. Crit chance does not only lower the "boringness"/"predictableness" of AAs by a bit, its made in a way that gives very rewarding visual feedback! The big number with the crit symbol, the chunk of the enemy healthbar and a crit animation/projectial, they all _feel_ exciting and rewarding. Not that "rewarding" for the recieving end but it will still get some excitment, a "holy shit, that dmg!", out of you :D > (Low) Crit chance is a double-edged sword, for you and your enemy! Let's look a bit deeper: crit chance, while beeing random, is still "fair" overall. It can bite you, but it can also bite your enemy! If you invest in crit chance, the first amount (<=30) is roughly wasted combat stats. Why? Because its still to unreliable! You cannot count on getting the amount of crits you "should" get, in short trades. If you always bet on your luck, it will backfire someday. So on the baseline you "waste" gold at the beginning, the risk is high. Obviously you can get lucky, but by the end of this comment you will look at low critchance and critstreaks with completely different eyes! To summarize it, if you invest gold into crit chance you have the right to get power for your money, but with low crit chance its more a risk than anything. You cant make reliable decisions on low critchance. ____ **3. The critchance problem** We now know that low critchance is rather bad, its very unreliable, thus its the "worst" part of the critchance randomness, right? Yes and No. In terms of randomness, yes; it is the worst part. But in terms of "impact", no! In the early laningphase 1 or 2 crits dont decide the hole game or the hole laningphase. The problem is if there are 2-3 lucky crits **in one trade!** If someone buys crit chance its expected that he/she crits you sometimes. A crit is "only" another free AA. Thats something that you should be able to roughly calculate/expect. But 2 or 3 crits in a 5 AA trade with only 10% crit? Thats a bit much! So its not the amount of crits that makes things nessecarily bad, its the amount of crits in a short time period that derail everything! And it goes the other way around with high amounts of crit chance too! Even with high critchance you can crit less than you would expect, and lategame every single crit can decide the game! The difference between 300 or 750 raw dmg at the end is much more impactful than ~80-100 more in the laningphase. >The problem is not just the random amount/ocurence, its the frequency of crits that makes things bad. Keep this in mind, its important for later! ____ **4. The problem with most suggestions/ crit alternatives** A lot of people suggest to change crit chance into a flat modifier, or something like "every x AA deals more dmg/bonus effect/becomes a crit" etc., or working like fevor, or something along those lines. _The big problem, a very big problem with all of them, is **abusability!**_ > Predictable, guaranteed "crits" are **extremely unheatly** for the game!!! Especially with low "crit chance". I cant stress this enough: If something can be abused, it WILL BE abused! Its the same with balance suggestions, always treat the "worst case" as the default one! And if the worst case looks bad than you need to tweak your suggestion. So any kind of "stacking" or x-hit thingy will not work. The can be abused to easly! Back then Trynda could "scout" if his next AA would crit by looking at his attack animation. If it was the start of his crit animation he cancels the AA and then goes in for a trade with a guaranteed crit! This was very unheatly and was abused a lot. This was luckly fixed, so if you cancel your crit animation you next AA is no longer guaranteed to be a crit. To make it short, we have 2 choices: - improve these suggestions, so they can no longer be abused - improve the current system, so these bad frequencies dont occure/ are limited I personally am ok with the current system, I do have a suggestion to make it even better, but if theres a good alternative I'm fine with that too! _____ _____ # The Math and my suggestion to improve the current situation ____ **5. Math, Math, Math** First off, congraz for making it here and still beeing awake! Not that many people here on boards would read such a massiv wall of text and I'm glad your not one of them! You have my respect. Since we are approching the limit of text that is endureable in one go, I'll skip the basics of PRD and just refere to an old post of mine. It is still valid, just some minor number tweaks especially in the higher critchance region have changed. It will explain how PRD works and will contain a length description and breakdown of my crit chance improvement suggestion. So if you want to torture yourself a bit, I recommend you get yourself some snacks and try to enjoy it as much as possible :D Heres the link to my old post, go to point 3. "More Math": [SummonersLab, Part 2: Crit Algorithem Improvement](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/Oe9PQnbE-summonerslab-part-2-crit-algorithem-improvement) And heres the link to a PRD breakdown: [PRD Basics](https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Pseudo-random_distribution) _____ **6. Super short PRD TL;DR:** If you have 50% crit chance, you actually only have a 25% chance to crit on your first AA! If this AA **DIDNT** crit,_ your next AA gets an additional +25% on top!_ So your 2nd AA has a 50% chance to crit. If your AA still did not crit, it gets another +25%, so it has a 75% chance to crit in total. If it still did not crit, it gets +25% again, so we arrive at 100%, which means this AA will guaranteed crit! After a crit you will reset back to the initial 25% crit chance. So this series of Crits: _C,C,C,C _ doesnt not have a **1/16 (~6%) chance** to occure _( 1/2x 1/2x 1/2x 1/2),_ it only has a** 1/64 to 1/256 (~1.6 - 0.4%) chance** to happen _(1/4x 1/4x 1/4x 1/4)_ ! As you can see getting alot of crits in a row is VERY unlikey! Even with decent crit chance. Keep this in mind the next time you see this, that person just got pretty lucky! ____ **7. My suggestion, a stricter PRD** Even with the PRD in place, which already makes the randomness a lot more fair, there are still some outliers present! It is for example possible to get a lot of crit in a row even with super low crit chance(<20%)! It is highly unlikely, but still possible. The same but a bit stricter can happen with high crit chance, since you reset back to the lower crit chance after a crit means that you have in general a lower critchance than you should have, in short periods. As a quick reminder: Over a longer period prd has the same outcome as normal crit chance, they are equal. But in shorter periods things can get wonky! (PRD is still a million times better than normal randomness, even in these cases) And thats what I want to improve! In short: We introduce caps to eliminate those outliers that can break "fairness" in shorter periods. We still wand to be random and also dont want to interfere with the normal PRD, we are only touching the troublesome outliers! These caps force us to have NonCritical AAs or guaranteed Crits based on the actual crit chance. Remember the amount of crits **IN A SHORT PERIOD** was the big problem we identified. Thats what those caps to fix. >**The Cap:** > > - **<=20% CritChance** = _2 NonCrits forced after a Crit_ > - **>20% - <40% CritChance** = _1 NonCrit forced after a Crit_ > - **>=40% - <50% CritChance** = _max. 2 Crits in a row (3rd AA will not crit)_ > - **>=50% - <60% CritChance** = _max 3 Crits in a row AND After 3 NonCritAAs in a row, your next 2 AAs are guarenteed Crits_ > - **>=60% - <80% CritChance** = _max. 5 Crits in a row AND After 2 NonCritAAs in a row, your next 2 AAs are guarenteed Crits_ > - **>=80% CritChance** = _After a NonCritAA, your next 3 AAs are guarenteed Crits_ Yes this is a tbit complicated, but basically these caps ensure that lucky AND unlucky outliers in high and low critchance get removed. If you have questions or want a more indepth explaination of this, just ask :D Reached letter limit again..
btw its now 5 am here and I wanted to got to sleep at 11pm... rip me xD Also to stay in the discussion, I feel that crit is fine, could use some improvement and alternatives to it are not ready yet. They still have problems :/ If someone has an idea that would get rid of these problems I would gladly hop on board! And also PRD can be abused, but it not really practical. My suggestion is even less likely to be abused even when I introduced alot of guaranteed crits (which is in general pretty risky/bad). And I'm sorry that my reply is not as "tailored" to your comment as it should be, but in this cases it makes alot of the explainations and reasonings easier :S If it helps I rewrote this monster 2 times and it was even longer in the earlier iterations, and I still managed to get to the letter limit again xD
: I look very much forward to it! If you'd like, I'd love to see the full version, along with the link to your old post.
______ Sooo, I'm finally done with this monster! I hope you enjoyed my old post :D First off, I will put most of the math at the end of this so it doesnt interfere that much and I can keep it a lot shorter that way :D And this comment is writen in a more general style, so guys who want to join our discussion have it easier to catch up. But its still an answer to your comment :P Let's get started! ____ ____ #The Good, the Bad, and the Crit Chance... - **1. Can Crit chance be removed?** - **2. Crit Chance not as bad as it seems?** - **3. The critchance problem** - **4. The problem with most suggestions/ crit alternatives** - **5. Math, Math, Math** - **6. Super short PRD TL;DR:** - **7. My suggestion, a stricter PRD** ___ **1. Can Crit chance be removed?** From a technical standpoint: Yes, definitely! It _is_ possible to remove it. But it might not be that easy! As you already mentioned, the game is already pretty complex. The "boringness" of AAs can mostly get removed by abilities, mechanics and the overall kit/theme of a champion. The removal of (controlled) randomness is also pretty good from a competativ standpoint, as it makes things absolutly fair. So, given a good alternative, crit chance can be removed! Before I go to the suggestions to replace critchance, I will quickly sum up some positves and its problem, for completions sake. ____ **2. Crit Chance not as bad as it seems?** Like stated before: crit chance is **not** pure random, this is very important! It uses PRD (pseudo random distribution), which is a very big improvement in terms of "fairness". To sum it up it looks at your previous attacks and modifies your critchance, instead of beeing completely independent, to get an overall more equal and less spikey outcome. I will explain it later with "some" (a ton of) math later. So to make it clear: Its not completely random, it already eliminats a big amount of bad cases, bad outliers. Crit chance does not only lower the "boringness"/"predictableness" of AAs by a bit, its made in a way that gives very rewarding visual feedback! The big number with the crit symbol, the chunk of the enemy healthbar and a crit animation/projectial, they all _feel_ exciting and rewarding. Not that "rewarding" for the recieving end but it will still get some excitment, a "holy shit, that dmg!", out of you :D > (Low) Crit chance is a double-edged sword, for you and your enemy! Let's look a bit deeper: crit chance, while beeing random, is still "fair" overall. It can bite you, but it can also bite your enemy! If you invest in crit chance, the first amount (<=30) is roughly wasted combat stats. Why? Because its still to unreliable! You cannot count on getting the amount of crits you "should" get, in short trades. If you always bet on your luck, it will backfire someday. So on the baseline you "waste" gold at the beginning, the risk is high. Obviously you can get lucky, but by the end of this comment you will look at low critchance and critstreaks with completely different eyes! To summarize it, if you invest gold into crit chance you have the right to get power for your money, but with low crit chance its more a risk than anything. You cant make reliable decisions on low critchance. ____ **3. The critchance problem** We now know that low critchance is rather bad, its very unreliable, thus its the "worst" part of the critchance randomness, right? Yes and No. In terms of randomness, yes; it is the worst part. But in terms of "impact", no! In the early laningphase 1 or 2 crits dont decide the hole game or the hole laningphase. The problem is if there are 2-3 lucky crits **in one trade!** If someone buys crit chance its expected that he/she crits you sometimes. A crit is "only" another free AA. Thats something that you should be able to roughly calculate/expect. But 2 or 3 crits in a 5 AA trade with only 10% crit? Thats a bit much! So its not the amount of crits that makes things nessecarily bad, its the amount of crits in a short time period that derail everything! And it goes the other way around with high amounts of crit chance too! Even with high critchance you can crit less than you would expect, and lategame every single crit can decide the game! The difference between 300 or 750 raw dmg at the end is much more impactful than ~80-100 more in the laningphase. >The problem is not just the random amount/ocurence, its the frequency of crits that makes things bad. Keep this in mind, its important for later! ____ **4. The problem with most suggestions/ crit alternatives** A lot of people suggest to change crit chance into a flat modifier, or something like "every x AA deals more dmg/bonus effect/becomes a crit" etc., or working like fevor, or something along those lines. _The big problem, a very big problem with all of them, is **abusability!**_ > Predictable, guaranteed "crits" are **extremely unheatly** for the game!!! Especially with low "crit chance". I cant stress this enough: If something can be abused, it WILL BE abused! Its the same with balance suggestions, always treat the "worst case" as the default one! And if the worst case looks bad than you need to tweak your suggestion. So any kind of "stacking" or x-hit thingy will not work. The can be abused to easly! Back then Trynda could "scout" if his next AA would crit by looking at his attack animation. If it was the start of his crit animation he cancels the AA and then goes in for a trade with a guaranteed crit! This was very unheatly and was abused a lot. This was luckly fixed, so if you cancel your crit animation you next AA is no longer guaranteed to be a crit. To make it short, we have 2 choices: - improve these suggestions, so they can no longer be abused - improve the current system, so these bad frequencies dont occure/ are limited I personally am ok with the current system, I do have a suggestion to make it even better, but if theres a good alternative I'm fine with that too! _____ _____ # The Math and my suggestion to improve the current situation ____ **5. Math, Math, Math** First off, congraz for making it here and still beeing awake! Not that many people here on boards would read such a massiv wall of text and I'm glad your not one of them! You have my respect. Since we are approching the limit of text that is endureable in one go, I'll skip the basics of PRD and just refere to an old post of mine. It is still valid, just some minor number tweaks especially in the higher critchance region have changed. It will explain how PRD works and will contain a length description and breakdown of my crit chance improvement suggestion. So if you want to torture yourself a bit, I recommend you get yourself some snacks and try to enjoy it as much as possible :D Heres the link to my old post, go to point 3. "More Math": [SummonersLab, Part 2: Crit Algorithem Improvement](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/Oe9PQnbE-summonerslab-part-2-crit-algorithem-improvement) And heres the link to a PRD breakdown: [PRD Basics](https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Pseudo-random_distribution) _____ **6. Super short PRD TL;DR:** If you have 50% crit chance, you actually only have a 25% chance to crit on your first AA! If this AA **DIDNT** crit,_ your next AA gets an additional +25% on top!_ So your 2nd AA has a 50% chance to crit. If your AA still did not crit, it gets another +25%, so it has a 75% chance to crit in total. If it still did not crit, it gets +25% again, so we arrive at 100%, which means this AA will guaranteed crit! After a crit you will reset back to the initial 25% crit chance. So this series of Crits: _C,C,C,C _ doesnt not have a **1/16 (~6%) chance** to occure _( 1/2x 1/2x 1/2x 1/2),_ it only has a** 1/64 to 1/256 (~1.6 - 0.4%) chance** to happen _(1/4x 1/4x 1/4x 1/4)_ ! As you can see getting alot of crits in a row is VERY unlikey! Even with decent crit chance. Keep this in mind the next time you see this, that person just got pretty lucky! ____ **7. My suggestion, a stricter PRD** Even with the PRD in place, which already makes the randomness a lot more fair, there are still some outliers present! It is for example possible to get a lot of crit in a row even with super low crit chance(<20%)! It is highly unlikely, but still possible. The same but a bit stricter can happen with high crit chance, since you reset back to the lower crit chance after a crit means that you have in general a lower critchance than you should have, in short periods. As a quick reminder: Over a longer period prd has the same outcome as normal crit chance, they are equal. But in shorter periods things can get wonky! (PRD is still a million times better than normal randomness, even in these cases) And thats what I want to improve! In short: We introduce caps to eliminate those outliers that can break "fairness" in shorter periods. We still wand to be random and also dont want to interfere with the normal PRD, we are only touching the troublesome outliers! These caps force us to have NonCritical AAs or guaranteed Crits based on the actual crit chance. Remember the amount of crits **IN A SHORT PERIOD** was the big problem we identified. Thats what those caps to fix. >**The Cap:** > > - **<=20% CritChance** = _2 NonCrits forced after a Crit_ > - **>20% - <40% CritChance** = _1 NonCrit forced after a Crit_ > - **>=40% - <50% CritChance** = _max. 2 Crits in a row (3rd AA will not crit)_ > - **>=50% - <60% CritChance** = _max 3 Crits in a row AND After 3 NonCritAAs in a row, your next 2 AAs are guarenteed Crits_ > - **>=60% - <80% CritChance** = _max. 5 Crits in a row AND After 2 NonCritAAs in a row, your next 2 AAs are guarenteed Crits_ > - **>=80% CritChance** = _After a NonCritAA, your next 3 AAs are guarenteed Crits_ Yes this is a tbit complicated, but basically these caps ensure that lucky AND unlucky outliers in high and low critchance get removed. If you have questions or want a more indepth explaination of this, just ask :D Reached letter limit again..
: I look very much forward to it! If you'd like, I'd love to see the full version, along with the link to your old post.
Change of planes: I finished the wall of text a while ago, but it was just to big and it wasnt that good to read, so I scrapped most of it and I'm trying to get it as resonably small as I can :/ In the mean time heres the link to my old post, so you dont get tooooo bored :P https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/Oe9PQnbE-summonerslab-part-2-crit-algorithem-improvement I'm trying to get done, but it could take still quiet a while, I'm a rather slow writer. Have mercy xD
: This board would be so much nicer if people learned to detach personal feelings from their arguments
I agree that way to many usefull discussions derail/get derailed because somebody felt that he/she got personally attacked. And then the reasoning goes out the window xD And also sadly when these rare discussions finally happen, at best a couple of guys will notice/join them :/ While raginess and saltiness dominate the frontpage by far. Its easier to unite vs a common enemy than to discuss things and come to conclusions that will actually do something to resolve the problem.
jadelink (OCE)
: I'd love a reply on this from RIOT. I remember the (horrible) crit-stack trynd rort, and how annoying it was to lane against someone had a guaranteed crit 'stacked' up their sleeve.
While I would love to get a Rioter to reply to this, but I dont think it will happen :/ I do have some very technical questions regarding Crit left unanswered, which are pretty much impossible to figure out/test by normal means. It would take serveral hundreds of hours and I still couldnt guarantee certanty of the results... I'm sorry to say but this "crit stacking" on trynda still works! Its a bit harder and its not really "guaranted", but you can still cheat the system to bring the odds a decent bit in your favor :/ Another trick for trynda was to cancel his AA when he saw the start of his crit animation. So hes know that he will crit with his next attack. This one luckly got patched :D
: I largely agree with this, and would personally be very interested in a pseudorandom number generator that would eliminate outliers already (if that isn't already the case). However, while I do agree that a certain level of unpredictability is necessary to keep sports fresh and interesting, I'm not sure randomness is needed even in that kind of situation, since League has a sufficiently complex framework that, given enough balancing, it can have such a vast number of strategies and interactions that it would not be easy to predict a game's outcome. I very much agree with your stance on controlled chaos, and how it can benefit gameplay, which is why, even with my personal distaste for RNG, I do think there is room for some randomness, as long as it presents equal opportunities for both teams. This is why I don't really think the randomness to drakes is inherently bad (how those random drakes interact with swings in team momentum I think might be a problem, though), though it's also why I think stuff like crit or Zoe's W are terrible for good gameplay. I also am very much on board with you when you say that the basic playstyle of marksmen would be fairly boring without the inconsistency of crit, since many of them would just be very constant damage pumps. However, I think this is already the case, and crit here only acts as a smokescreen to distract from it. Crit I think innately has no real gameplay, so the end result is that the damage output of marksman also lacks interesting gameplay (though marksmen have a lot of potential for interactivity nonetheless). Because of this, I also agree that any replacement to crit should not simply convert the stat into a persistent damage modifier, but should legitimately add gameplay and emphasize components to the playstyle of marksmen that are more interactive (e.g. attacking for a prolonged amount of time, rather than just once or twice).
I'm sorry, I would love to further discuss this topic you with right now, but its getting pretty late over here in EU. And I do have a lot to discuss, it is a wall of text so be ready :D I will hopefully get it done by tomorrow, to tired to finish and to roughly spell check this monster right now. As a bonus: How much do you know/want to know about PRD/ my stricter version? a) I can give you a link to an old post of mine where I explained it decently, might be a bit outdated now but should still be valid for the most part :D b) a somewhat "short" tl;dr: with the basic principals c) the full version
HarrowR (EUNE)
: Well its funny you generalize all adcs as boring right clickers where there is no zero or hero mechanic,you seem to forget theres a lot of skill heavy adcs,Jhin,Ezreal,Xayah,Varus,Lucian,even kog has 3 skillshots,Draven has two skillshots and a mechanic that requires him to move and catch the axes,Kalista has a similiar mechanic where the skill of the player has great influence on the success of playing her. Most of the time the outplay of adcs isnt about whos gonna crit or not,its about whos gonna kite better,which is a skill in its own cause it takes hella of a lot more APM to kite a melee with an adc than with lux where you just throw your spells out and keep walking
You cleary missunderstood my point xD I'm not talking about the complexity or abilities or mechanics or skill of adcs! I'm just saying that adcs gameplay mostly resolves around their autoattacks and that you cannot dogde them with skill (except for some spezial cases like jax e, or twitch r aso). And if you cannot dogde/avoid something with skill, it becomes pretty predictable and rather "boring" compared to skillshots which always can miss completely. My point stands: You cannot outplay the rightclick, aka AAs, which makes AAs in general less exciting. Technically point and click abilities are also on the "boring" side, as a sidenode. My point is that crit chance wants and does make AAs alot more unpredictable, thus more "interesting". I'm not saying that crit is good or bad, it just fullfilles this spezial purpose and also not that all adcs are just boring rightclickers. The AAs are boring, not the Adcs themselfs! Thats my point. Nothing more and nothing less. Hope that clearifies things a little :D
: The Aspects of Balance Nobody talks about: Player Skill, Balance Cycle and Riot spoiling Players
Just a quick comment: > And yes, there will be cases where the outlier is so severe that the character NEEDS to be taken care of (Zoe for example). These cases are just that though: Outliers. Things that occur once or twice a year depending on how complex the game is. Well IF it would only happen once or twice a year! Almost every 2nd month they create big outliers.... And the problem is not that they randomly pop up and surprise everyone! Look at AP Galio back then or Zoe or Duskblades Dmg output! These are not surprising results, someone with a bit of knowledge should be able to predict this.... And they have testers on a high elo level and years of experience. Those "slip ups" are completely of the charts. I can understand mistakes or rather unpredictable things, small changes with a bigger impact than expected, but not these big mess ups. Its only human to make mistakes and nobody is perfect, but I also have the right to get some roughly thought out changes from those professionals and not a fiesta every 3-4th patch.... But as a sidenode: Quiet often it feels like they "fix" something which should settle a bit longer before they touch it, and they often make changes which I cannot understand nor follow thru. Like messing with something that has nothing to do with the actual problem and tweaking that will not really fix it xD Its not like I'm perfect and know everything, but I decently often have a rather different, but also backed up, opinion on some of their changes. To put everything together: It feels like those "misshaps" happen way more frequently and often are decently predictable. We are talking about professionals after all! Then some changes are done which arent making much sense, as they dont target the core problem directly, but some other random stuff. And thats why their "balancing" is often called pretty bad. Personally speaking it definetly feels worse than before, but calling it complete trash, thats to much in my book.
: I very much agree that crit is a subject worth discussing. As a feature that's been present in the game for so long, it's one many people have gotten used to, but which has also nonetheless caused a significant amount of irritation due to its random nature. Seeing how Riot's been playing a little more with randomness, with mixed results, I think it's also a good time to discuss exactly what kind of contribution we expect from randomness, and what we really don't want from it at all. With that said, while the OP claims to not want to do a deep dive into crits, it tries do so anyway, and goes into a series of bulletpoints I personally consider rather questionable, namely: > [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=voeyqoFA,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-02-18T21:23:26.541+0000) > > * Provides some anti-snowball potential, as even champions who are ahead need to be wary of critical strikes. How is this different from any other kind of nuke? Do critical strikes possess some unique property that allows them to bypass gold or level leads? > [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=voeyqoFA,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-02-18T21:23:26.541+0000) > > * Creates &amp;quot;crit-fishing&amp;quot; gameplay, where a harassing champion can fire off a shot and follow it up with an immediate engage if the initial hit is a critical hit, or where a champion can attempt to predict the psuedo-random RNG to &amp;quot;cook&amp;quot; a crit for use against an enemy. Does this actually happen in practice? This sounds very clever on paper, but while I may be wrong on this, I have yet to see this translate into any kind of emergent gameplay even among pro players. > [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=voeyqoFA,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-02-18T21:23:26.541+0000) > > * Creates varied and dynamic play through psuedo-randomized damage output variance and the need to react to the same either offensively or defensively. Please describe how pseudo-randomized damage output makes play "varied" or "dynamic": what new decisions does crit generate? Does this happen in practice? > [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=voeyqoFA,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-02-18T21:23:26.541+0000) > > * Randomization at lower values creates interesting teamfight opportunities -- if you crit one target and are unlikely to have another crit up soon, do you switch to a priority target or focus down the victim of the initial hit? Does this also happen in practice? From personal experience, perhaps Tryndamere may rely on a potential crit to cheese his lane early, but I have also not really seen crits meaningfully affect teamfighting decisions. Is there any sort of video evidence, guide, or other reliable source that demonstrates the gameplay that is claimed to be associated with crit here? > [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=voeyqoFA,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-02-18T21:23:26.541+0000) > > * Creates high points and low points in gameplay (usually a positive thing for player experience). This kind of apes the actual design principles around highs and lows, wherein those highs and lows are a reflection of the player's skill expression -- you don't want to make the player feel terrible for no good reason; rather, you only want to make them hit a low if they make a mistake and get punished for it. Conversely, you generally want to make players feel good, but especially if they achieve a particularly difficult play, and as with low points, giving players high moments for a reason that does not correlate to their skill can come across as confusing in a game that heavily emphasizes skilful play. On a more nit-picky level, the difference in phrasing between this: > [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=voeyqoFA,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-02-18T21:23:26.541+0000) > > * A portion of the player base really likes it. And this: > [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=voeyqoFA,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-02-18T21:23:26.541+0000) > > * A portion of the player base has a *very* strong negative bias against it. Comes across as snide. Drawing lines in the sand, then declaring one side to "really like" something, and the other to be really biased against it, itself carries bias, and undermines many of the people who have participated in this debate. *** Criticism aside, my personal opinion on crit is that it is fundamentally power without gameplay: perhaps any sort of random output happening on the map could lead to some changes in decision-making (and even then, I doubt that, particularly if those random outputs happen more than once a second), but that is not enough in itself for it to justify the random element, in my opinion. If the objective is to create unpredictable *opportunities*, by introducing new choices that could benefit either side equally, then perhaps that could happen (though even so, the random element would still need to justify its existence over an algorithm based purely on player decisions), but the problem with crit is that it expresses itself primarily through random *output*, i.e. by awarding success or failure to either side in a manner that does not intrinsically stem from skilful play. In a game that has taken great pains to aim for competitive integrity by basing the outcome of matches as much as possible on the actions of players, I therefore do not think any kind of system that preserves output randomness deserves to stay. As such, I do not think suggestions 3 through 6 would solve the problems with crit, as they preserve output randomness. This post is getting a bit long already, so I'll make a separate comment for a crit model I had considered, which proposes crit as a three-strike/add-on model.
____ Well to "fix"/"improve" critchance we first need to understand why theres randomness in a competitive game in the first place. It doesnt make sense from a competitive standpoint! The reason why crit is based on a chance and not just a flat dmg amplifier is because it brings unpredictablelity, uncertainty, thus more "interesting" gameplay, especially for adcs and the viewers. ____ To put it blantely: The adc gameplay experience is flat out boring. **You cant "outplay" the rightclick.** Compared to skillshot dependent champions/roles, which can completely miss and do nothing at all, a "zero or hero" playstyle mostly based on your and your enemys skill level, thats interesting because anything can happen! This type of exciting gameplay experience (hit or miss), (in general) doesnt exist for adcs. They rightclick and thats it. ____ And thats the reason why this randomness (to be clear its controlled pseudo randomness) is present in a competative game. As a quick example: You wouldnt watch sport games if the outcome is mostly like the statistics predict. Nobody would watch it because its boring; Its predicatble, its not interesting. ____ So if you want to fix or improve this system, ether remove the randomness and also somehow manage to introduce something similar to skillshots for the adcs rightclick, OR just try to improve the randomness a bit, so its not as bad as sounds. Otherwise riot will not even try to considere the idea, because it introduces more troubles than it fixes. My personal stance on this is: _"Pure chaos is bad and unhealty, but controlled chaos on the contrary can even improve gameplay experience!"_ ____ I did alot of research and dove pretty deep into Leagues crit mechanics and to improve the current system I propose a stricter PRD. One which still is based on pseudo randomness, but outliers and extreme cases are elimiated. So its technically "fair" randomness, but it should no longer be able to royally f*** everything up, just because you or the enemy good extremely lucky. Again, it will not messy with normal cases, ~99% of all cases, just the bad extremes! I can provide a indepth explaination of my stricter PRD, if wanted. And if I claimed something that is wrong, please feel free to point it out! Thats what discussions are for :D
: I think one of the other big issues is that there is no real way to "punish" a champion who builds critical strike. 1000 stack {{champion:75}} still has to get into melee range to one shot you, 900 AP {{champion:45}} still does zero damage with ult or comet if {{item:3102}} or any other spell shield is up. Item's like old {{item:3075}} were great for this, you crit me and take a huge amount of magic damage in the process. The current "answer" is to build armor but if you assume the average ADC is going to have 200 AD and 80% crit, how much armor will you need to build to not get chunked down by 3-4 very quick auto attacks? I'll bet you is 2 or more items worth, which if you aren't an engage champion means you are giving up on a lot of power/ utility to avoid constant 500 point crits.
{{item:3143}},{{item:3047}},{{item:3110}},{{item:3075}}. They are all somewhat counters to crit. Even {{item:3026}} is decent. You have ~70-90 base armor at lvl 18, at 100 armor you have 50% reduction, so 500 raw dmg gets lowered to 250. With 2k hp it takes 8 critical AAs to kill you. To achive 100 armor Ninja Tabis or a GA are more than enough. You dont even need to build purely defensiv items to survive 8 Crits. Also Crit users go full glass cannon so they can be popped by almost anything. Focusing on crit reduces their survivalbilty and their powerspike is later. As a sidenode: honestly your examples in the beginning are pretty lackluster, just saying :D
: A Deeper Dive into Critical Hits: Input/Discussion/Alternatives Appreciated.
I commented on your first post already, so I will make it short: The main, probally even the only, reason why Crit works with random chances and not just a flat dmg amplification is to make the adc gameplay experience interesting/diverse! Every other role is more or less focused on skill shot abilitys which can miss! Aka "interesting" gameplay. So it can fail and do nothing! Adcs main power come from their AAs, which always do dmg. They cant miss completely and deal zero dmg (in general). You want uncertain, (normally skill dependent) outcomes! You will not watch a match if you already now the outcome from the get go, based on statistics. You watch it because of the uncertainties! So if you want to talk about potential crit chances, always keep this in mind: Removing the "random" (its not completely random, its decently controlled pseudo random) aspect from the adc playstyle, you will make it a lot more boring! Thats why riot will not "exchange" crit chance for anykind of "flat"/"totaly predictable" dmg amps, if you dont fix this "boring adcs playstyle" in some way too. I'm personally pro critchance aka. pro randomness, IF we are talking about controlled randomness! Pure randomness is bad for a competativ game. Controlled randomness on the otherhand isnt a problem in certain amounts, rather the opposide! Its good for it! It makes things more interesting. _____ > Secondly, a point of uncertainty that I'd love to know if anyone knows it: does this psuedo-randomization tick different for champions vs. non-champions? I.e. is champion crit chance on a separate fail-safe tracker than minion crit chance? I cant guarentee it with 100% certanty, but I'm 99,9% sure its not split into Non champs and Champs. There is no real point in splitting it, it doesnt make alot of sense. You can "stack" crit on minions/monster to get a better chance vs champs. But its not easy and only makes sense on some levels of critchance. I personally tested crit chance alot and I never saw anything like a split. So its pretty safe to assume that its definitely not split into to crit chances.
: Hey there, first off: "Overcrit" /"Red Crit"/ "Double Crit" is in general a good idea which I support beeing implemented into the game! It in theory keeps the overall dmg output rougly the same. It is also still random, which is good (I will talk about that in another comment) and also reduces the "worst case" rngs. But like everything it does have a negativ aspect which might not be so clear to everyone. I dug a bit deeper into the crit mechanics a long time ago(~a year) so my rambeling does not come nowhere, if you have questions I will very likely be able to answer them. I'm from Germany so please overlook some minor grammer mistakes and its been a while since I wrote in english, so have some mercy :D I will provide some more indept explainations and some extra details in another comment below this, otherwise this one would get way to big! So I recommend that you read that one first and if youre interested in some more complex stuff, and then continue here, but it shouldnt be needed. With that out of the way, lets get started! _____ _____ # Ups and downs **_Your idea will make the dmg output a decent amout more predictable, which is good but also bad!_** **Here is why:** Making it more predictable flatens the unusual cases of "un-/luckyness" with low critchance (normally <30% crit chance) and high critchance(>70%). So its less extreme, which is good. But on the otherhand it can be bad for you, because Champions which had powercurves balanced around the "low"/offchance of random crits (like tryndamere, ~yasou, every early adc itembuild), now get "power" way more reliable! Early aka. low critchance was a risky investment, because it was to unreliable, now powercurves would be a decent amount safer. _Only a fool would choose unreliable big power over way more reliable medium power!_ _____ >**Critchances design phylosophie is to be unreliable!** Certain unreliablity makes the really boring ADC gameplay experience decently more interesting. Unlike skillshots, which are skill dependent and potentionally can do zero dmg, AAs always do dmg! Which makes them pretty boring (better explaination in my extra comment). Thats the reason for randomness in a competitive game; to make things more interesting. I might add "decentely controlled" randomness! Not pure randomness! So lowering the randomness is good, your idea might actually reduce it by to much already. I would still support and try it out, but I could also understand if someone thinks it interferces to much. _____ ____ #- Chaos is bad! But "Controlled" Chaos is GOOD! I will not go into to much detail, but I had an idea to further reduce outliers, the extreme cases of critchance. Thus making it more fair, without interfering with the randomness in general. Its only about rare outliers, so nobody would ever actively notice this QoL change, but nethertheless it should be done to increase the "fairness" of our dear random critchance. _ I made an indepth thread roughly a year ago, so heres the short tl;dr:_ > a hard cap on unlucky AND lucky streaks; Forcing certain attacks to be guarenteed critical or guarenteed non critical, based on the current crit chance and the streak. Its basically a stricter PRD, which additonally touches rare outliers; the extreme cases! Thats the baseline. Its complicated and stuff like "guarenteed crits/non crits" sound bad, but trust me they are not abuseable! Not one bit. In fact the PRD aglorythm is more abusable than my stricter version. If you are interested I can link my old post or make a "quick" summarization. Again your Overcrit idea is definitally worth trying in my book, but it might actually be already a bit too controlling. My stance is:_ "Pure randomness is unhealty. But controlled randomness **IS** healty!"_ ___
#EXTRAS #To get everyone roughly on the same page: LoL uses PRD (pseudo random distribution), which means that you have "stacking" critchance if your attack didnt crit, but also lower initial critchance. I did a lot of tests to figure that out and I tested it many times, so its a safe call. Quick example: >You have 50% Critchance and the following numbers are rough estamets. >**Instead of a 50% Chance to crit, your first Attack only has a 25% Chance to crit!** **If it fails,** your next Attack gets +25% Chance to crit, so it now has **50% Chance** to crit, if it fails again your next has ** 75% Chance,** and after that it gets **100%**. **And if you get a crit, it will always reset back to the initial 25% Chance!** _____ >In short this means you always get a guarenteed crit after X "failed" AAs. Sounds complicated, **is complicated** and I love it! , but makes Crits **A LOT** more "fair", compared to the "normal" randomness, trust me! >I could go a lot deeper and explain what all this means, but I want to keep it short, so if youre interested in this complicated stuff I will provide a link to my old post and maybe explain a bit more. _____ #Why is "randomness" good? It makes thing more interesting, because it makes something unpredicatable or better "less" predicatable. **Wait, before you start typing!** I **DISLIKE** extreme randomness and too much randomness, but in this case its needed! I dislike total Chaos, but I love **controlled** Chaos! Big difference! **Wtf, more interesting?** Well, a mage, like Lux can do insane (burst-)dmg, but she also can do **0** dmg. Everything depends on her and her enemys skill. It is unpredictable! ADCs on the otherhand always do some dmg! You cant "outplay" the rightclick! (Wait, I know, I KNOW! Excaptions here, spezial stuff there, bla bla. We are only talking in general!) So ADCs are frecking boring. Generally the same outcome, not much variation, nothing compared to skillshot dependant, zero-or-hero champs. And thats a problem. Ask yourself: Would you watch sports if the outcome is roughly 100% safe? No, you wouldnt! Thats why crit was introduced especially for the adc role, to make their gameplay experience better; more exciting! ___ A lot of you suggest that we should get rid of the randomness completely and make crit into a flat dmg amplifier. Well, crit **IS** , in theory, only a dmg amplifier, but it introduces also variarity, un-/less -predicatable situations, aka. **INTERESTING** situations, interesting gameplay! Yes, the sad part is that its random! You cant spell "Interesting" without "INT" :P It can favor you, or it can stab you in the back (like it does with me, alot). While randomness is "fair" on the baseline, it often **feels** really bad if you get unlucky. Simply because you cant do anything against it. Also pure randomness can create some extreme situations which is bad and very unheatly for a competativ game, thats why we put a roof ontop! It can still screw you, but extreme extreme situations are eliminated or super rare. And it still remains random for the most part. Thats what I call: "Controlled Chaos", and this provides interesting game, while beeing as "fair" as possible. This is the reason why they will never change crit to just a boring flat dmg amp! And I support this! But some outliers, some extremely rare, super un-/lucky situations can still happen, which I personally want to reduce even further! Randomness, yes. Extreme randomness, NO! To be fair they should be and are fairly RARE! But still can happen. ___ And thats where my idea comes into play. I can promise you, nobody of you will even notice it! It only deals with those extreme outliers and leaves the rest untouched. So its mostly just a very technicaly QoL change, which will improve overall fairness. It only removes outliers, thus barely anyone will even notice it. If you have questions feel free to ask them, but Im sadly pretty buisy atm, so I might not be able to answer until tuesday :/ Now back to the main post :D
: Fixing Critical Strike: A Proposal.
Hey there, first off: "Overcrit" /"Red Crit"/ "Double Crit" is in general a good idea which I support beeing implemented into the game! It in theory keeps the overall dmg output rougly the same. It is also still random, which is good (I will talk about that in another comment) and also reduces the "worst case" rngs. But like everything it does have a negativ aspect which might not be so clear to everyone. I dug a bit deeper into the crit mechanics a long time ago(~a year) so my rambeling does not come nowhere, if you have questions I will very likely be able to answer them. I'm from Germany so please overlook some minor grammer mistakes and its been a while since I wrote in english, so have some mercy :D I will provide some more indept explainations and some extra details in another comment below this, otherwise this one would get way to big! So I recommend that you read that one first and if youre interested in some more complex stuff, and then continue here, but it shouldnt be needed. With that out of the way, lets get started! _____ _____ # Ups and downs **_Your idea will make the dmg output a decent amout more predictable, which is good but also bad!_** **Here is why:** Making it more predictable flatens the unusual cases of "un-/luckyness" with low critchance (normally <30% crit chance) and high critchance(>70%). So its less extreme, which is good. But on the otherhand it can be bad for you, because Champions which had powercurves balanced around the "low"/offchance of random crits (like tryndamere, ~yasou, every early adc itembuild), now get "power" way more reliable! Early aka. low critchance was a risky investment, because it was to unreliable, now powercurves would be a decent amount safer. _Only a fool would choose unreliable big power over way more reliable medium power!_ _____ >**Critchances design phylosophie is to be unreliable!** Certain unreliablity makes the really boring ADC gameplay experience decently more interesting. Unlike skillshots, which are skill dependent and potentionally can do zero dmg, AAs always do dmg! Which makes them pretty boring (better explaination in my extra comment). Thats the reason for randomness in a competitive game; to make things more interesting. I might add "decentely controlled" randomness! Not pure randomness! So lowering the randomness is good, your idea might actually reduce it by to much already. I would still support and try it out, but I could also understand if someone thinks it interferces to much. _____ ____ #- Chaos is bad! But "Controlled" Chaos is GOOD! I will not go into to much detail, but I had an idea to further reduce outliers, the extreme cases of critchance. Thus making it more fair, without interfering with the randomness in general. Its only about rare outliers, so nobody would ever actively notice this QoL change, but nethertheless it should be done to increase the "fairness" of our dear random critchance. _ I made an indepth thread roughly a year ago, so heres the short tl;dr:_ > a hard cap on unlucky AND lucky streaks; Forcing certain attacks to be guarenteed critical or guarenteed non critical, based on the current crit chance and the streak. Its basically a stricter PRD, which additonally touches rare outliers; the extreme cases! Thats the baseline. Its complicated and stuff like "guarenteed crits/non crits" sound bad, but trust me they are not abuseable! Not one bit. In fact the PRD aglorythm is more abusable than my stricter version. If you are interested I can link my old post or make a "quick" summarization. Again your Overcrit idea is definitally worth trying in my book, but it might actually be already a bit too controlling. My stance is:_ "Pure randomness is unhealty. But controlled randomness **IS** healty!"_ ___
: They need to buff Lee Sin. Like....they need to buff him super hard.
lol jokes on you, I still can downvote it xD :P #Hacks
: ping "on my way" /= "I'm coming bot, keep your cc up and have kindred bait them"
and the "go away the enemy midlaner is coming" apperently means "stay where you are, and you get an icecream" In all seriousness, riot keeps giving me retarded teammates! Im not saying that in tilt, im 100% serious! look at my history! I have a 32% winrate with morgana in my last 20 games, but I have a 3,92 kda! wtf, how!? And no, I dont play for kda... Edit: In my last 40 games its a 44% winrate and a 3,87 kda
: actually its perfectly possible, just make a temporary discord voice chat with your adc
that doesnt help that much... I often ping them already, but they stay for example... its just that they are greedy guys and that was the reason why i lost my current game.
Awhegark (NA)
: How do you explain all the support mains in diamond then?. Would love to hear that one, smart ass.
a) got lucky, b) got lucky enough, c) duo with someone, d) just didnt have as many trolls, ints and feeding guys as me. Simple as that xD I was dia last season and I'm a supp main. I'm not saying its impossible, but you dont have enough impact as sup anymore. Adcs and jungler are the only guys who decide a match. And the odes are definitely not in my favor to get the ones that actually do something.....
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: She could have just used her own flash as well.
yeah thats obvious, but the keypart is that she didnt "collect" the flash bubble, she got the {{item:3152}} bubble, BUT she could flash again! So she had 2 flashes without picking up anything. and thats suspicious
: She probably collected another flash before the clip or something like that.
But she already flashed once, so she can "store" multiple flashes?! That would be absolutely ridiculous xD
: It appears that there are "summoner spell" bubbles on the ground whenever someone uses a summoner spell, and im guessing she can pick them up and immediately use them. Pause at about 45 seconds in and you can see {{summoner:4}} and {{summoner:1}} lying on the ground inside of a bubble.
Yeah I already saw that, Im talking about the fact that she flashed and then only picked up a {{item:3152}} bubble, the {{summoner:4}} bubble is still on the ground, she didnt pick it up. But she still could flash again. And thats what Im wondering about :D
nm1010 (NA)
: It is certainly going to be crazy xD I don't think they show her auto attacking without her bubbles on so its hard to tell to what extent it changes her autos.
She does seem to have normal AAs and the "bubble pop" thing seem to be like a xayah W or Ahri W projectiles, she does normal AAs, the laserbeam, vs viktor, and then the "bubble pop" projectile flies towards him, later when she still has 2 bubbles she AAs with a normal Laserbeam again, vik dies and the rest of the bubbles pop with doing anything. So it doest seem to be an enhanced AA, but some extra homing projectils
nm1010 (NA)
: If you slow it down after she autos a bubble pops and flies at whomever she autos. At least when I slowed down the fight on Viktor that is what happened, and yes she gets more bubbles after using a summoner. They could also enhance her summoners I suppose, but that could get really crazy really quickly.
imagen the chaos in a team fight xD bubbles everywhere! It replaces her AA using a bubble, but the projectile doesnt seem more powerfull, it feels like a xayah W, thats what im talking about ;D
nm1010 (NA)
: Oh god she can store them for some period of time xD That is the only thing I can think of at least.
Im a bit unsure because of the 3 bubbles around her, they go down to 2 at the first AA, but go back up after collecting the buble/flashing, assumingly the enhance something? For AAs, which I assume, the visuals feel weak, doesnt feel like an enhanced AA to be honest
nm1010 (NA)
: Literally just spent like 30 minutes analyzes the video to make the same thread xD She can also auto while moving, probably as part of the spawn 3 bubbles ability.
did you see that she flashed again at ~0:40 but didnt collect the flash bubble? I try to figure out how this is possible, she collected a {{item:3152}} bubble but not the flash bubble :/
: This was an actual play in-game so it's all above board. You'll be able to figure it out when you see her kit.
Damn it my theorycrafter senses are tingeling, I want to figure it out right now xD May I ask who animated the kick of the sleep bubble? Thats a 10/10 animation!
: The full story will be coming yes indeed, but you raise some interesting points about how kids dress in Runeterra and what region/s Zoe's clothes are from. I can at least confirm that Zoe dresses herself, so as you can imagine her style is far from typical. I think during development I repeatedly said to people 'You're American but you don't walk around wearing a stars-and-stripes baseball cap' just as I shy away from the wife beater, stubbies and thongs that are the uniform of [my people](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5f/f0/bf/5ff0bf2597cc322ea6388b1643aea065.jpg). You'll have characters like Garen that wear their faction's colours proudly, and others like Lucian who prefer their own style.
Can I slip in a quick question? Im trying to figure out how she works exactely :D at ~0:39 Zoe flashed, and shortly after that flashed again, but she didnt collect the flash bubble (she collected the {{item:3152}} bubble) a) it was a visual bug b) ups, we missed something there c) everything is correct as seen! EDIT:) btw. the kick of the sleep bubble looks pretty nice thematically speaking, GG to whoever did that, or as we say in German "GeeGEE!" ;P
: New Champ: Zoe, the Aspect of Twilight preview
Wait a minute! Look at 0:40! She flashed and didnt pick up the flash bubble!!! It was the {{item:3152}} -bubble but she still flashed again! I call hacks! Also, damn sleep (epic for ganks) and all this mobility, certainly a CertainlyT work... It wasnt really explained how her 3 bubbles work (at the start vs viktor). What do they? Doesnt seem to be a skillshot but p&c and 3 enhanced AA's? And I cannot see any "attacks" coming from her. Nether normal nor enhanced ones :/
Porocles (NA)
: Matchmaking doesn't consider blocked players. While it 's a great way to prevent potential harassment from a player, using it to block players from joining the same game could be incredibly abusive. There's likely chance that folks might use it negatively or to avoid players who had a bad game. In addition to blocking, make sure to use the reporting tool so we can review cases of negative gameplay.
Im honestly not so sure about the incredibly abusiv part, of course it can be "abused" to rule out "bad" players judged only by 1 game, but normaly people show there true colors in these matches. And I dont have fun playing with them again, nor do they have fun to play with me (assumingly). So it can happen that someone gets blocked because of their performance, I personally only block them if they are toxic, not because they played badly. So while I agree that there are cases of "abuse" possible, but to me the benefits outwage this by alot. And yes I will still report them too. Speaking it doesnt feel that impactfull to report them, I know they will evtl. get punished but it doesnt **feel** impactfull :/ So did you ever had a disscussion about blocking influencing matchmaking? Or maybe I could roll the ball a bit and you guys might look into it? Again, to me it feels pretty onesided in terms of benefits vs risks, and only in rare cases at dia+ could possible influence the "pool" of guys you can play with, the rest should be fine if you block a couple duzent of guys. (maybe this block could be a temporary 1 month block too, if you are concerned about the pool) Just thossing some ideas out at this point :P Anyway thx for your fast reply, you guys at player sup do an awesome job! Dealing with the frontend on this is surely not an easy task :P
  Rioter Comments
: all rotating modes should be played with a full premade if you want to win. Period.
Well, first: most of us are solos, lone wolfs in the savanas of the elo hell. Second, you can beat it with 5 randoms if you do it right. Why would you need to be premades?
Rioter Comments
: SHOCKER, THE META CHANGED TO STACKING CRIT FOR WARLORDS PROCS, BORK GOT NERFED, AND CLEAVER + BORK WAS NERFED! Have you watched a single fucking pro game in the last 3 fucking months. EVERY. SINGLE. MAGE. BUILDS. TORMENT. **Syndra, Taliyah, Orianna, Cassiopeia** Fucking shocker, GA doesn't give MR anymore. Another shocker, ADCs still don't build GA. Seriously, go check. Barely built in this meta. GA is bruiser item now, and thank fucking god. Games were boring when tank junglers just fucking rushed GA 2nd or 3rd. If Darius is "better than Cho'Gath" then why is Cho'Gath literally worth a ban in diamond compared to Darius who is basically a troll pick? Seriously, just ask yourself: Why is no one picking Darius and why Cho'Gath instead? Who gives a shit about Darius's R when he needs to charge it up, and who cares about his damage if he dies in 3 seconds? As you can see, not in a good mood.
I dont care about moods, facts dont change regardless of someones mood, so why bother? Just because the meta changes doesnt make an Item "shit". Its all about priorisation. If people would build botrk as 1st or 2nd item HP stacking tanks would be no problem. See if you are ill and there is a medicine for that, but you choose to do something else instead of taking the medicine its is completely your own fault. You have a problem and there is a solution to that, but if you dont do the solution you have no right to complain. :D Yes, they build it in proplay because they use their brain and choose the correct itemization! But not everybody out of proplay does this. Thats my hole point! Hey, I can only show you solutions to the "Cho is annoying" problem. GA is a possibly solution vs him and assassins. But back then you "lost" alot of power for the tradeoff of survivability, right now you only "lose some" power. And you dont see it in Proplay because people know how to peel and position! Yes, Darius is overall better, a stronger Champ, but Cho is a bulletsponge in teamfights. And thats valued in proplay right now, because in this adc meta you want to give your adc time to scale (which they do alot faster nowadays, bad decision in my book btw). And having a meatshield in the mid game is valued more than a better champion. So his popularity is only because of this "meatshield midgame for adc" from proplay copied meta. If the crit scaling goes down a bit people might build botrk again and then Cho will 100% not be a problem anymore. The ardense nerf on the pbe is a good direction, so we might see botrk back soon. Or just play fiora vs him and he will not be a problem... Try only HP stacking vs % truedmg xD
: BoRK is shit though. Every mage is building Torment. ADCs lose significant damage if they build GA. This meta, ADCs can't afford to lose damage. Darius also can be kited, has less CC, and actually takes damage. Also his nuke is for 600 AFTER 5 STACKS, not 1000 instant.
> BoRK is shit though. No, it is not. A couple of months ago it was even the GoTo rush item so you can deal with tanks in the midgame... > Every mage is building Torment. No not everyone is building it, but its popularity has gone up a bit. But again mages dont have the mana & cds midgame to kill HP tanks only with a liandries. And most arent supossed to kill those tanks this way anyway. > ADCs lose significant damage if they build GA. This meta, ADCs can't afford to lose damage. GA was MR and Armor only some time ago... It was actually improved for adcs/AD Champs. Also a dead 1 shoted ADC always does less dmg than an ADC who survives a Cho Ult, because of the GA... Im not advising you to rush it, but to consider it as ~3rd if you are bad at positioning and/or your team bad at peeling. > Darius also can be kited, has less CC, and actually takes damage. Also his nuke is for 600 AFTER 5 STACKS, not 1000 instant. I would need to go quiet indepth if we want to compare Cho and Darius accuratelly. So the short version: Darius is better. Has better CC, better laningphase, more reliable, more carrypotential and can heal up midfight. Also he can nuke up to 5 people and Cho only 1, but Cho is better as a bulletsponge.
Show more

Lord Desert

Level 30 (EUW)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion