: SHOCKER, THE META CHANGED TO STACKING CRIT FOR WARLORDS PROCS, BORK GOT NERFED, AND CLEAVER + BORK WAS NERFED! Have you watched a single fucking pro game in the last 3 fucking months. EVERY. SINGLE. MAGE. BUILDS. TORMENT. **Syndra, Taliyah, Orianna, Cassiopeia** Fucking shocker, GA doesn't give MR anymore. Another shocker, ADCs still don't build GA. Seriously, go check. Barely built in this meta. GA is bruiser item now, and thank fucking god. Games were boring when tank junglers just fucking rushed GA 2nd or 3rd. If Darius is "better than Cho'Gath" then why is Cho'Gath literally worth a ban in diamond compared to Darius who is basically a troll pick? Seriously, just ask yourself: Why is no one picking Darius and why Cho'Gath instead? Who gives a shit about Darius's R when he needs to charge it up, and who cares about his damage if he dies in 3 seconds? As you can see, not in a good mood.
I dont care about moods, facts dont change regardless of someones mood, so why bother? Just because the meta changes doesnt make an Item "shit". Its all about priorisation. If people would build botrk as 1st or 2nd item HP stacking tanks would be no problem. See if you are ill and there is a medicine for that, but you choose to do something else instead of taking the medicine its is completely your own fault. You have a problem and there is a solution to that, but if you dont do the solution you have no right to complain. :D Yes, they build it in proplay because they use their brain and choose the correct itemization! But not everybody out of proplay does this. Thats my hole point! Hey, I can only show you solutions to the "Cho is annoying" problem. GA is a possibly solution vs him and assassins. But back then you "lost" alot of power for the tradeoff of survivability, right now you only "lose some" power. And you dont see it in Proplay because people know how to peel and position! Yes, Darius is overall better, a stronger Champ, but Cho is a bulletsponge in teamfights. And thats valued in proplay right now, because in this adc meta you want to give your adc time to scale (which they do alot faster nowadays, bad decision in my book btw). And having a meatshield in the mid game is valued more than a better champion. So his popularity is only because of this "meatshield midgame for adc" from proplay copied meta. If the crit scaling goes down a bit people might build botrk again and then Cho will 100% not be a problem anymore. The ardense nerf on the pbe is a good direction, so we might see botrk back soon. Or just play fiora vs him and he will not be a problem... Try only HP stacking vs % truedmg xD
: BoRK is shit though. Every mage is building Torment. ADCs lose significant damage if they build GA. This meta, ADCs can't afford to lose damage. Darius also can be kited, has less CC, and actually takes damage. Also his nuke is for 600 AFTER 5 STACKS, not 1000 instant.
> BoRK is shit though. No, it is not. A couple of months ago it was even the GoTo rush item so you can deal with tanks in the midgame... > Every mage is building Torment. No not everyone is building it, but its popularity has gone up a bit. But again mages dont have the mana & cds midgame to kill HP tanks only with a liandries. And most arent supossed to kill those tanks this way anyway. > ADCs lose significant damage if they build GA. This meta, ADCs can't afford to lose damage. GA was MR and Armor only some time ago... It was actually improved for adcs/AD Champs. Also a dead 1 shoted ADC always does less dmg than an ADC who survives a Cho Ult, because of the GA... Im not advising you to rush it, but to consider it as ~3rd if you are bad at positioning and/or your team bad at peeling. > Darius also can be kited, has less CC, and actually takes damage. Also his nuke is for 600 AFTER 5 STACKS, not 1000 instant. I would need to go quiet indepth if we want to compare Cho and Darius accuratelly. So the short version: Darius is better. Has better CC, better laningphase, more reliable, more carrypotential and can heal up midfight. Also he can nuke up to 5 people and Cho only 1, but Cho is better as a bulletsponge.
: Out of curiosity, why do you feel like he is in need of any nerfs?
As someone who actually does the math on these things, let me explain why they feel like Cho needs nerfs: They suck at league and dont know what movement, itemiazition and % dmg is! xDD ___ **Ok, seriously now!** He is only "annoying" to play against because if he gets ahead or even, he becomes a massiv HP monster in the midgame. Where most people nether have the items nor thier spikes already. (A Tris with only an IE will not do much to a 4k HP Cho for 15 seconds+) So his "powerspike" is annoying to anyone without % dmg in their kits in the midgame. And they forget that {{item:3036}},{{item:3153}},{{item:3151}} and {{item:3026}} exist in this game. So its easier to complain and rage than to think and itemiaze correctly. The statistics also prove that he is only "good" but far from overpowered etc. others are WAY stronger! His kit is the definition of "outplayable" already. Ontop because he is a HP monster people waste their important cds on him, so the enemy carries can just clean up everything. Yes, his True dmg is a bit high, but normaly if it "one shots" you, he ether is feed or you look at a 60+min game. Or you made other mistakes like beeing in his easy to dodge Q... Complaining "tank dealing so much dmg...!" ..... Do you by chance know this guy {{champion:122}}?.... Cho can omnomnom 1, Darius can delete all 5. ____ **To bring it all together:** Yes, he might be a tiny bit annoying to play against, but so are 50+ other champs...... There is not a single valid argument why Cho definitely needs to be nerfed. **BUT** if you guys still consider that he needs some nerfs, I propose a powershift back to AP Cho! Lower HP scaling on his Ult for better AP scaling for example. Also would you mind fixing his Q hitbox? Its actual hitbox is a bit smaller than the visuals. (Compare the Q hitbox accuracy with Taliyahs W and you see a day and night difference! I can provide pics if wanted :D) Thanks for the attention, lets see how many people got triggered by my first sentence xD
: MSF Appreciation Thread
They are called "Höppelepöps" here in germany xD
Rioter Comments
Chermorg (NA)
: I just don't see how it's a good foundation - you have 27+3 variables that you throw into the first 10 minutes of the game that are for all intents and purposes completely random and unpredictable, making champions way too variable in early game strength. But I never liked runes to begin with - so maybe I'm a tad biased.
Theres more than just 1 problem here which needs adressing. First the comprimation to just 6 choices (7 if we count the tree bonuses) from ~60. Every choice in theory now has 10x more impact. Thus creating more extremes, ether it fits really nice or meh and that limits variety, aka "off picks" The other thing is the limit of choice. Our runes give you the option of counteracting certain matchups and to round up build with cdr or whatever you are missing/want or even double down on something. If these "countermeasurements" and "roundups" are hidden in certain runes the rest of the tree needs to fit aswell. And thats not always the case. Want early MR vs lane matchup, 45% max cdr, Attackspeed and Ad? Nope, sr not possible... Especially Mixed/Hyrid/offroles often have this problem, because they need a variety of stats. Flat stats are and will always be boring (except to theorycrafters like me :D), but they often are needed and you cant always make them look nice and interactive. "The Ultimate Hat" for example is basically extra cdr for your ult... This is also only a boring flat stat. But I havent seen a single complaint about that one. I can accept both, the current and the new system, but I'm certainly not fully happy with ether. Both could still use a bit of work.
: I dunno. I think it proved why some people think pro-play is scripted (poorly) sometimes. :P Like, seriously? FNC again? Could you at least pick a team that's more likeable and less arrogant next time Rito? NOTE: I do not actually think pro-play is scripted. Just... ugh FNC.
Even then, you must admit today was pretty exciting/nervewrecking, right? :D
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 11
Regarding the basestat adjustments in combination of the new resolve runes Iron Skin, Mirror Shell, and Conditioning, doesnt the 3 armor/MR from Iron Skin and Mirror Shell feel extremely weak? (sup tanks get +20 base armor from the adjustments) and both also get outclassed by Conditioning by a lot. Just saying that you might want to take a look at them again, they also feel pretty lackluster :/
: Patch Chat with the Playtest Team - 7.20
____ While its not exactely champion related, what do you think about the new resolve tree in runes reforged? Especially the Trio: Iron Skin, Mirror Shell and Conditioning. And keep in mind this is only a personal prefernce question and not an "offical riot stance"! If personally view them as quiet improvable. My favorites so far are ether a __Early and scaling only against Armor__ *VS* __Early and scaling only against MR__ *VS* __Later and scaling, but a little weaker__ (a bit like the Hybrid Pen vs Solo Stats Pen runes) **OR** a __Early mixed__ *VS* __later and scaling mixed__ and we get a free runeslot for some more maybe more interactiv rune with this one. Example for **EarlySolo** vs **EarlySolo** vs **LaterMixed**: >Iron Skin: 6 armor + 6 armor and 10% armor scaling @10mins >Mirror Shell: 6 MR + 6 MR and 10% MR scaling @10mins >Conditioning: 10Armor and MR @10mins + 7% Armor and MR scaling @10mins. ____ What do you think in general and about the idea/s? Thanks for your time :D
: "Being Bad is the First Step to Not Being Bad"
The good thing about hitting rock bottom is that you cant fall any deeper.... And also: If you are good at something never do it for free!!! (beeing the worst at something in this case) Use these informations as you like ;D awesome, but weird, christmas gnar on fire -thingy! {{sticker:sg-shisa}}
: While I do not agree with needing more free pages, I up voted you for being such an entertaining writer. Best of luck with everything. {{sticker:vlad-salute}}
btw these stickers are pretty nice but who or what the hell is this? --> {{sticker:sg-shisa}} <-- ??? Oh wait I should have used this one in my "threatening": {{sticker:sg-jinx}} "Yuuk... " eh, I mean: "Cactopus -i" xD Hitting them with a little bit of psycho ;P This is quiet a bit more terrifing than that chrismas gnar on fire thingy! :'D
: While I do not agree with needing more free pages, I up voted you for being such an entertaining writer. Best of luck with everything. {{sticker:vlad-salute}}
While it breaks my theorycrafting heart that someone would say no to more and easier theorycrafting, I do tip my hat to you kind Sir! Yours is (sadly) a rather rare stance here on boards :/ But it makes me happy that you atleast felt entertained (dispite the horrendous grammatical mistakes, its 2 am here in germany and Im to lazy/not capable anymore to correct them xD)! The best I would bargin for is to get 20 pages, like mastery pages. But additonally a raised cap (double the amount atleast!) But since I know I'm a rather small minority I would hope to get 5 fixed and 5 free, + our "unlocked" rune pages (still remove the max 20 pages cap) Thats my goal with this thread :D
Rioter Comments
: We additionally nerfed his primary rush item with Righteous Glory going up in price by 150g. Made his lane less safe against certain match-ups with Bramble Vest costing 100g more in 7.19. I was tasked to investigate him further for 7.20 but gave the suggestion we hold off. As you can imagine it was a contentious proposal. But, his ban rate is dropping. His win rate certainly isn't out of line in my opinion. I'm pretty confident players will continue to find more champions to counter him as the systems favor him less. I think we definitely have levers to pull if we need to nerf him. Some of the directions I found most promising were as follows: 1. **Reduce the consistency of his crowd control chaining.** Probably would aim at an E duration nerf for this. 2. **Make his scaling less guaranteed.** He gets to uber tank status pretty easily with mostly minion Feasts. Easy-ish option would be to lower the number he can get from feasting low priority targets. 3. **Make him pay a higher cost for his damage. ** If he wants massive Feasts we could make him build more AP. This is a more dangerous direction as I personally don't think Mage Cho is a particularly compelling pattern but for someone building no offensive items he's probably doing too much damage. I'm sure we'll keep an eye on Cho'Gath in the next couple of patches and the next designer assigned may come to a different conclusion than I did. I'm not sure my reasoning will be particularly comforting for the OP but I wanted to allay any fears that we're ignoring Cho.
Well based on the statistics I can access he is not even that strong, he is only annyoing to play against because he can just stack a crap ton of hp early, which makes him very hard to kill in the midgame. (And alot of people forget about this{{item:3034}}{{item:3036}}{{item:3153}} ) And thats it... Im sure you figuered about the same. Also ChoGaths kit is already the definition of "outplayable". While I dont see any balance problems in him, if you decide to nerf him why not shift his power more to AP cho again?
: Worlds 2017 Drinking Game.
Dude are you trying to kill us? 1 game is enough for 90% to get wasted beyond recovery already xD
: Iron skin and mirror shield are just garbage, and are so awkward because they're early game runes that have a very weak effect that scales into late game, but then drops off again at full build when you can't use consumables. Having two of the same rune essentially just shows a lack of creativity. And combining them would at least be a step in making them okay. Personally, I think they should both be replaced with better options.
Some do have heals in there kit and possibly Grasp so its not "only" consumables, but the early game buff is still a joke.
Jackom1 (EUW)
: Well, the bonus is conditional on 20 health restored, which isn't a lot, but it's still implied that the champ using these runes has some degree of self healing. We don't know yet if self-regen counts toward this bonus, although i hope that it won't, otherwise the 20 health condition would be meaningless. Still, they could add that the runes work only on self healing, so no soraka shenanigans. That way, rammus and malphite (and galio for mirror shell) would be forced to take conditioning, since they lack any kind of self healing besides health regen. If they can't heal themselves in some way, they can't get either the bonus armor or the bonus mr (depending on the rune). Also, making the runes stats means that, in order to make full use of the runes, the champion must not only be able to self heal himself, but to do it consistently, at least in some windowed instances. Mundo comes to mind, and since he's also been made to better counter ap champions, him being able to full use MIRROR SHELL during the ult would be a good thing, and it would only be during the ult, since mundo's passive is counted as simple health regen. Also, both iron skin and mirror shell offer a much more dinamic gameplay: You have to heal yourself in order to get the bonus stats, but most melee champions need to go into melee to get any form of healing, which means that you can only make use of those runes if you commit to a fight. Not only that, but you need to fight those champions that this rune will eventually counter (there would be no point to fight a mage if you're going to stack iron shield). That to me sounds like healthy gameplay, because it is dictated by decision-making. Conditioning on the other hand is simply: don't look too hard for fights in the first 10 minutes of the game, then do what you want. You're getting only 6% bonus mr and armor anyway, which isn't a lot. 6% of 300 is 18... it describes itself. 10% of 300 is 30, now we're talking, kinda. But to get that 10%, you have to heal yourself at least twice in a 5 seconds window, during which there is a 99% chance that you're into a teamfight. Otherwise, chances are you've wasted a necessary heal. Additionally, if you take iron shield, for instance, it means that you're going to invest into armor, which will eventually leave you open to champions who deal magic damage. Again, counterplay. You don't have that dinamic with conditioning. I think that a 10% bonus behind the self-healing condition (now it's just healing in general) would be ok for both iron skin and mirror shell. Conditioning probably needs to go back to drawing board, since it provides no kind of dinamics besides take this bunch of free stats after 10 minutes. Conditioning could work based on the kind of damage you're currently tanking. "Gain 6% bonus mr for 5 seconds when you suffer magic damage. Gain 6% armor when you suffer physical damage. 10 seconds CD. Both bonuses have separate CDs and can be present at the same time".
In general most people think health regen is excluded from the "heal 20 Hp" condition, so the 5% (or uping it to 10%) is still not a reliable buff, execpt for those with heals. There could be some synergy with grasp too. Nevertheless all three are still pretty boring, but with the modifications you atleast always have a reactiv choice depending on the situation/enemy and not a "this one rune is always the best for me".
: > [{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XcEd2Htk,comment-id=00040000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-06T17:44:51.246+0000) > > Is this already with my modifications in mind or not? If you talk about the current ones, I 100% agree, they are rubbish and completely infirior to Conditioning, especially with the base stat adjustment! > The modifications on the otherhand should make it an actual choice no, i mean the way they are on the pbe/riots preseason rune page. theyre garbage.
ok, and what about my modifications? Are they atleast decent? or still pretty weak? The good thing is, I just shifted some stats and removed the weird potion part. So Riot can easily do that. On the otherhand its still boring as hell, but atleast better than the current runes xD
: That's what I'm most concerned about; if we *did* take away flat resistances in the stats, we'd need to replace them with something equally good. There's an awful lot of % resistance spiking going on in these masteries, and I'm not sure what we could replace it with that would be better. Maybe shields that scale with resistances, instead of just most flat resists? I don't know how that would work with true damage or what the trigger would be, but I feel like a little more creativity is needed. I think your changes are good, and I don't think the current masteries are necessarily weak, anyway. I just wish there was something more interesting going on there.
yep thats the problem :/ and sadly tanks stats are pretty hard to balance to be "fun/visual" for tanks, but also not beyond broken for others xD It often is a thin line between those.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XcEd2Htk,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-10-06T16:56:35.987+0000) > > A 10%/10min scalingt is horrifing! I would agree to a 10% bonus @ 10 min and +2,5%/10 min ;D > > Your new suggestion feels a bit weak compared to then other two, or am I missing something? It isn't fleshed out or anything, but the idea of it is for characters that can easily recover their health and like to stick in battles. They'd get continually more resistances (with no cooldown) just from fighting. It could also be replaced with something like Fearless that procs temporary burst resistances against assassins.
We have something similar to fearless as a keystone already so they wouldnt make that again. But infight stacking, like fevor, but with resistances sounds pretty nice to me! It would also benefit tanks the most so its not as easy to abuse by others :D
Naqel (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XcEd2Htk,comment-id=000a00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-06T18:45:45.575+0000) > > Then sadly no one would take Iron Skin for sure, Mirror Shell has some funny interactions with dps and burst, which would need to be sorted out first. 10 less physical damage(~15% of an AA for most marksmen) when there's merely 25% of your HP missing in a level 1 trade, that grows even further as you get more wounded and only really falls off in value once the enemy gets a BF sword is nothing to scoff at. That kind of early game reduction could be the difference between making it to the first back and death in certain matchups. And if is was allowed to apply to anything, and not just champions, it'd make for some really safe early jungle clears. There is ton of potential here for early power, without any other benefits. Mirror Shell is specifically short-lived no-cooldown because of those funny interactions. Suddenly the enemy mage has to think how they apply their rotation, or they lose a chunk of damage if they just try to dump everything at once.
I surely understand that and it is definitely not weak in the early game, but tanks still would not go for it. Tanks dont really care about the early game ;D Only in very, very bad situations/matchups. With the extra scaling it could be good enough even lategame to be picked by tanks. Mirror Shell is definitely good vs burst and dps but tanks normaly can take burst easily. Also not getting armor is not really good for tanks. So both can be usefull for tanks but might even be better off
: No. A) I think an early game rune should have no scaling at all, that defeats the purpose of it. B) There is no such thing as a 'full AD team'. Even champions who would seem to have entirely AD scaling kits deal magic damage, such as Garen's Demacian Justice and Zed's Contempt for the Weak. AD and AP are irrelevant, what matters is whether the champion deals physical or magic damage, and almost every non-mage is some mix of the two. Every mage is pretty much full magic damage, so you want MR. Versus a top lane bully I would rely on the new sweet 9 armor buff I've received, and take Conditioning because laning phase is not everything. I can outplay my opponents by dodging abilities or making smart trades, I don't need to out stat check them.
The problem is, tanks dont value the early game that much like you said here: >Versus a top lane bully I would rely on the new sweet 9 armor buff I've received, and take Conditioning because laning phase is not everything. I can outplay my opponents by dodging abilities or making smart trades, I don't need to out stat check them. There is no reason for tanks/tankier champs to pick an ONLY early game buff rune... (which is also pretty bado), if there is a scaling/lategame rune availabe. And thats is **excatly** the point why I gave the early game rune a scaling! But this scaling is also better! But its just for a single stat! Not both like Conditioning. Btw. with "AD or AP combs" I meant teams that deal almost exclusively physical or magic dmg. But this takes longer to read and write... A team consisting out of darius, lee, jayce, kalista and rankan is a "AD comb" or a team that deals almost no magic dmg. They deal some but you dont build aginst magic dmg. Atbest you opt for 1 hybrid tank item(MR and AR). Thats it. You dont need/want to get the +5% Mr. You would rather have 6 more armor in the laningphase, + 6 armor and 7% armor @ 10 min, than 10Ar&MR and 5%Ar&MR at @10 mins. So this trade off of beeing better in the laning phase AND being better vs a certain comb actually makes them decent a choice vs the allround package. Currentely absolutely no one will ever pick ether Iron Skin or Mirror Shell, not a chance! And thats what I wanted to change :D
Naqel (EUW)
: Oh, that's already in the post: > Iron Skin and Mirror Shell should both have effects that are completely detached from straight up stat boosts. So "C" I suppose, just the effects I suggest, no stats of any kind.
Then sadly no one would take Iron Skin for sure, Mirror Shell has some funny interactions with dps and burst, which would need to be sorted out first. The double scaling resistance stat would be to good for tanks to pass up. Exept if your Iron Skin would come with a 1/1.5/2 scaling at lvl 1/7/13. Then Tanks eventually might pick it up, but its only physical. But you also dont see this effect so it would be just another "stat". Your Mirror Shell is most effectiv vs Burst and long dps but the effectivness is hard to judge. There are potential situations, but the safe Ar and MR buff might be preferable for most guys :/ I wouldnt see that much of a problem by adding those on top to ether the current rune or my version, but as stand alone in the tank tree is a bit more difficult. But definitely not impossible! Dont get me wrong I still very much like your suggestions :D
Naqel (EUW)
: Anything that makes Iron Skin and Mirror Shell an actual choice to make is good. I like my ideas best of course, not just because they are mine, but also because they open the row to competition among non-tanks.
No, I meant what would the rune look like xD So for example: a) **Iron Skin:** 3 Armor + "Whenever you heal for at least 20 health or from a consumable's effect, increase your Armor by 5% for 3s." Reduce Physical damage received by 1 for every 2.5% of HP missing. b) **Iron Skin:** 6 Armor + 6 Armor and +7% Armor at 10 min Reduce Physical damage received by 1 for every 2.5% of HP missing. (Or other modified values) c)**Iron Skin:** Reduce Physical damage received by 1 for every 2.5% of HP missing. What would you like/suggest?
Naqel (EUW)
: Iron Skin and Mirror Shell should both have effects that are completely detached from straight up stat boosts. For example: -Iron Skin: Reduce Physical damage received by 1 for every 2.5% of HP missing. <- Very strong in an early physical lane, quickly diminishes in value as attacks become more powerful. -Mirror Shell: Gain a Magic Shield for 0.5 second after taking Magic Damage, equal to 10% of damage taken. <- Effectively a scaling MR boost, but one that can be played around by staggering the attacks.
Very nice, these are exactly the type of ideas I wanted to hear to make these crappy runes more interesting! Would you still go with my modifications ontop? Or maybe change them a little? Or with the current runes?
: > [{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XcEd2Htk,comment-id=000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-06T17:22:31.376+0000) > > This basically means that you will lose something, which was helpfull in the early game, after you sold the potions. It doesnt feel good, but it is acceptable. > The only thing now is: Would someone pick this? > We are in the tank tree so tanks must pick 1 of the 3 in the row, and other could pick it as a secondary. > So is it strong/good enough for &quot;tanks&quot;? Or would other classes pick this up? no one in his right mind would pick one of those 2 runes the way they are. if someone does, hes just bad at math. there is literally no competition between conditioning and the other 2 runes. its always conditioning 100% of the time. id rather pick inspiration secondary for celestial body to get some early game defense, or sorcery for nullifying orb than to waste a slot on iron skin or mirror shield. make the risistance bonus actually large enough to count at lvl 1-3 and people might want to pick it up to deal with their lane matchup. but not 3 to 5 points of resistance of which they later lose the 2 extra points.
Is this already with my modifications in mind or not? If you talk about the current ones, I 100% agree, they are rubbish and completely infirior to Conditioning, especially with the base stat adjustment! The modifications on the otherhand should make it an actual choice
: Conditioning is great. With the base stat adjustments no one needs a buff at level 1. Just never take the other two.
Yep thats exactly the reason why I buffed those too to have some advantages over Conditioning (small ones, but raised all tree also a bit up) Would you take one of those two with my modifications over Conditioning? When facing a Full AD comb? VS Darius or Renektion or Jayce toplane?
: > [{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XcEd2Htk,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-06T17:09:03.152+0000) > > I thought so too, also this potion/healing thing feels a bit weird, I can understand the intention to buff up in a fight but still the wording feels off. And I&#x27;m still not sure if this &quot;heal for 20HP&quot; could be done with normal HP regen, which would make sense for a 5% buff which becomes usefull only later. the condition is really only for consumables. i guess you could pull it off with {{item:2138}} lategame, but it would only be the 3 seconds from the initial activation. the potion trigger isnt even bad as long as it would be confined to the early game and then just give you the bonus at 10 minutes. youre basically going in with {{item:2003}} {{item:2033}} {{item:2031}} into a fight and youre good for the bonus. but at some point around midgame, you just want to sell your potion or not buy health pots anymore. the bonus just needs to become permanent then.
This basically means that you will lose something, which was helpfull in the early game, after you sold the potions. It doesnt feel good, but it is acceptable. The only thing now is: Would someone pick this? We are in the tank tree so tanks must pick 1 of the 3 in the row, and other could pick it as a secondary. So is it strong/good enough for "tanks"? Or would other classes pick this up?
Paroe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XcEd2Htk,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-10-06T01:52:09.298+0000) > > I personally like those ideas, but they are pretty niche and become meaningfull only very late into the game and could be counters/focused only vs certain champs, like yasou. Knowing riot they definitely wouldnt go that route :/ > > Also these numbers are a bit high considering the current pace and other runes, they are atleast on keystone rune level. And I think Ghostcrawler just mentioned recentely that they would rather fix the root of a problem than just to make a counter to something (Was about an antishield mechanic). They arent exactly niche but theyre situational. Marksman hit their 'lategame' with IE/zeal item right now and crit is absurdly strong. Likewise if youre a tank in the mid lane then the penetration resisance would be super nice. If the enemy team has a lot of sustained damage (cass, ryze, corki, lucian, etc) taking the time-game damage reduction might be the best choice. But due to how tanks work, it will always depend.
It would be pretty nice to have penetration resistance, but only that from a rune is not good since it becomes usefull way to late into the game! Every rune ether gives something now or atleast somewhat "early" aka midgame. AntiPen would only be lategame relavant, or in some matchups, which riot wanted to avoid :/ I do agree that adcs hit their "lategame" way to early, which then requiers tanks and midgame champs to be effizent earlier which then increases snowballing even further. And down the rabit hole we go... The an AntiCrit rune is a way to go, but there might be better was to fight against this problem than a rune. The up to 20% dmg reduction is extremely strong, and the condition you added is definitely needed to avoid abuse, but even then it might be a bit to strong especially on HP stacking, but it could still work.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XcEd2Htk,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-10-06T16:31:16.337+0000) > > ok comment section is a bit weird my sorting feels messed up? anyway... > > So you want to make it into a early vs later/scaling choice. Is it really &quot;Armor/Magic Resist by **5** for 3 seconds.&quot; and not &quot;5**%**&quot;? > All in all the 5% in Conditition is a bit weak, uping this to 7-10% should help. > It will also decrease the reactivness, to a likely fixed choice other then that it could work, but now theres room for a new rune. in 90% of the games, the only reason why youd pick a specific armor or magic resistance rune is to adapt to your lane matchup. that conditional 5% resistance bonus is useless anyways on the two runes right now. early game, its going to be like 2 or 3 more armor or mr during potion actives. most champions start with less than 50 armor and definitely less than 50 magic resistance. midgame, that 5% bonus is basically not even going to be there, since youre not buying pots anymore. so having a scaling 5% bonus with a condition that doesnt make it accessable anymore when the scaling kicks in is entirely pointless anyway. so it would be more useful to make the rune like 5 flat resist and another 5 flat reist during potion actives, for 10 extra armor or magic resistance during that duration. at early levels, this can make a large difference. at 10 minutes, the condition should just be removed and have the item absorbed for 10 total armor or magic resists, just so youre not stuck with a rune that gives you like 5 armor or mr. yea, its much less than conditioning will give you, but thats the point. it will be decently powerful at early levels, while conditioning will be more powerful in exchange for having to wait for it.
I thought so too, also this potion/healing thing feels a bit weird, I can understand the intention to buff up in a fight but still the wording feels off. And I'm still not sure if this "heal for 20HP" could be done with normal HP regen, which would make sense for a 5% buff which becomes usefull only later.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XcEd2Htk,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-10-06T16:51:34.500+0000) > > Honestely I feel the same, they are pretty boring compared to basically any other rune/tree. > But as a side node, even something like &quot;The Ultimate Had&quot; is just flat stats. Its just cdr for your ult :D > But its a &quot;new&quot; stat we never had before, thats why it doesnt feel boring. > > Speaking of tank stats, there are no resistance buffs whatsoever in the resolve tree. If you think about the old one we had 3-4 resistance buffs there. We now have some more tenacity/slowresist options. But we need some Armor/ Mr options somewhere, I can accept a couple &quot;boring&quot; ones for this sake, sadly not everything cant be made super new and interesting :/ > > Atleast (with my modifications) you have a reactiv choice always depending on the situation, and not a fixed &quot;best&quot; for champs. Its not much, but atleast something xD > > Do you think my suggested changes make them somewhat okish, or still pretty weak? riot threw all this power of resistance buffs into the aftershock keystone and then made it only accessable for champions with hard cc -.- before the damage goes off, it increases resistances by 30% for 2.5 seconds. id love to pick that keystone on some juggernauts, but i cant imagine garens silence, yoricks w, and illaois spirit hook will count as immobilizing effects. perseverance was originally also supposed to give 7% bonus resistances for every summoner spell on cooldown.
yeah they were ether weirdly placed/situational, or not availabe to all :/
: Reboot that entire slot. **Deflective Shell** Gain 6 Armor and Magic Resist. Gain an additional 4 +5% Armor and Magic resist for 3 seconds whenever affected by a direct heal or shield **Conditioning** Every 10 minutes, gain 5 +10% bonus armor and Magic resist, scaling infinitely **Battle Scars** Whenever a champion deals 30% or more of your health with a single damage type within 2.5 seconds, gain 1 +1% bonus armor or magic resist based on the type of damage dealt
A 10%/10min scalingt is horrifing! I would agree to a 10% bonus @ 10 min and +2,5%/10 min ;D Your new suggestion feels a bit weak compared to then other two, or am I missing something?
: That's a little better... I tend to agree with Paroe, though. I think we could have some much more interesting buffs here that would be situational picks. While your idea is *definitely* better than the current system, I still just do not love the idea of giving stats with minor runes. It defeats the purpose of reworking runes, imo. Resolve tree is not weak. This triplet, in particular, is pretty unimaginative, though. Compared to the other runes out there, these really leave a bad taste in my mouth. The whole point here was to introduce things that were *way* more interesting than flat stats. Like "The Ultimate Hat." That's a *great* rune that really buffs certain playstyles/champs without needing to just give flat stats. This may be a way to really reward tanks who build resistances and truly help them feel tanky without putting too many stats on items, but I just wish there was a more inspired way to do that. This feels boring. As a minor gripe, I think that even your rework isn't enough to make champs like Malphite, Taric, and Galio change this rune. Huge buffs to one resistance over another mean a lot to these champs because of their damage scalings.
Honestely I feel the same, they are pretty boring compared to basically any other rune/tree. But as a side node, even something like "The Ultimate Had" is just flat stats. Its just cdr for your ult :D But its a "new" stat we never had before, thats why it doesnt feel boring. Speaking of tank stats, there are no resistance buffs whatsoever in the resolve tree. If you think about the old one we had 3-4 resistance buffs there. We now have some more tenacity/slowresist options. But we need some Armor/ Mr options somewhere, I can accept a couple "boring" ones for this sake, sadly not everything cant be made super new and interesting :/ Atleast (with my modifications) you have a reactiv choice always depending on the situation, and not a fixed "best" for champs. Its not much, but atleast something xD Do you think my suggested changes make them somewhat okish, or still pretty weak?
: > [{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XcEd2Htk,comment-id=0005000000010000,timestamp=2017-10-06T15:08:43.479+0000) > > I have no clue which one you are talking about xD > Could you give me a link or a title? That would certainly help! > > Adaptive is better early, late and vs certain full AD/AP combs, so in general adaptive is stronger then fixed buffs, exept if we make the fixed buff stronger. But why take adaptive if the fixed is already better? There is no point. > So conditioning becomes obsolete, there is no point in picking it (like now with Iron Skin and Mirror Shell). So we would need to change Conditioning too. And now we changed the complete triple, which riot will not do now. Maybe after the rest settled they would overhall them. > > Also sometimes you want some extra flat resistance like MR to round of your build but still want % armor. Or the other way around. > So its not as easy to make adaptive resitance as with an adaptive shield. i mean i made two posts. and exactly the one above the one you reacted to. i was saying, that iron skin and mirror shield should be turned into items, that are unlocked to be picked up in the shop for free, when you equip the rune. you can take only one of them. riot already has the tech for stuff like that. this way, we would have combined both runes into one and you just chose which one you take on the fountain at the start of the game. theyd give 5 resistance + another 5 for 3 seconds when you healed 20 hp from a consumable. at 10 minutes the item you chose gets absorbed for either 10 permanent armor, or 10 permanent mr. so you get a decently powerful early game resist rune, that helps you deal with difficult lane matchups and gets turned into permanent resistances once you move past the need for health potions. while legendary guardian would give you flat resists for both types depending on how many enemies youd be fighting, which would end up to be quite a lot. or you pick conditioning for a 10 minute reistance boost with 6 +5% armor/mr.
ok my bad, I was searching like an idiot for this but couldnt find it, while it was just 2 comments below this... Did they changed something in the sorting? Feels off somehow :/ I replied to your other comment now :D
: i already made a thread about this a couple days ago. here are my 2 cents. we turn iron skin and mirror shield into ONE rune. because right now there are two rune slots wasted on the same effect. the rune grants you access to one of two free items in the shop of at the start of the game. you must chose between the items and cant get both obviously. the shop only sells one of the two items, and then locks you out of any more purchases for either of the two. you can trade them out for each other in case you took the wrong item, but it would reset the items active cooldown and youd have to wait that extra time until you can consume it. > Iron Skin/Mirror Shield > 5 Armor/Magic Resist. > Passive: Whenever you heal for at least 20 health or from a consumable's effect, increase your Armor/Magic Resist by 5 for 3 seconds. > Active: the item is consumed and grants 10 Armor/Magic Resist permanently. This effect starts with a 10 minute cooldown. a low scaling early game option that focuses on one of the two resistance types condensed into a single rune. in contrast to the conditioning rune, which makes you forfeit early game power in exchange for a universal midgame power spike in resistances (currently 6 armor+mr and 5% total armor/mr bonus at 10 minutes).
ok comment section is a bit weird my sorting feels messed up? anyway... So you want to make it into a early vs later/scaling choice. Is it really "Armor/Magic Resist by **5** for 3 seconds." and not "5**%**"? All in all the 5% in Conditition is a bit weak, uping this to 7-10% should help. It will also decrease the reactivness, to a likely fixed choice other then that it could work, but now theres room for a new rune.
: > Adaptiv resistance is stronger then weaker overall bonuses in the early and lategame. No, not in the late. In big lategame teamfights, you take a lot of both kinds of damage, so you actually use both resistances at the same time, having only one wouldn't be as good. > Sometimes you even want some flat MR, maybe for the lane or late to round off the itembuild but still want the % Armor bonus, and thats not possible with adaptiv. This is different, I didn't say your version was better or worse than Critmaster version, I just wanted to clarify what he was talking about because there was some missing context. > And yes I know about that, but... No "but" needed. They are OK with more than 3 Runes on a given line. If you "want a free slot" for some experimental Rune, you can just add it at the end of the line.
I the lategame dps carries mope you up. And normally 1 type more dominant than the other, so having the adaptive higher resistance CAN be better even late or in teamfights! So early/laningphase adaptive, midgame situational/same, because you dont have high Armor AND MR, often only 1 of them to a decent level so the weaker mixed is not really better. Lategame it is situational too, but the mixed version is atleast always decent. (expect for Full AD/AP combs and if only I dps carry attacks you). So lets say 50/50. Early: Adaptive (100/0) Mid: Adaptive, situational mixed (60/40) Late: 50/50 All in all adaptive is just better. The early, vs single combs, situational better even lategame, same even midgame and better in 1v1, possibly 1v2. >This is different, I didn't say your version was better or worse than Critmaster version, I just wanted to clarify what he was talking about because there was some missing context. I wasnt assuming you compared the mechanics, no worries, was just pointing out that adaptive is not always what you want, but to be fair it works in a lot of cases! They only make more runes if there is a need for, and when Iron Skin and Mirror Shell merge, there are only 2 runes in the row, so they will make/take another rune! Adding a 4th rune is a completly different story xD With the "adapting" part, Conditioning would become obsolete (in my eyes) so they would need to remake atleast 2 runes there, which they will not do so late into the process. Only later they may overhall them :D
Jackom1 (EUW)
: They coul make the first two runes able to stack. Since the third gives both 6% armor and mr, the first two could at least give up to 10% armor and mr respectively.
These are just some small number tweaks, but the general guideline is that the single stats grant more and even early stats, and the combined later, weaker bonuses but to both resitances. my split was 7% solo and 5% combined, but 10% and 6% sounds good too! But we somewhat need to be a bit carefull for the super armor tanks ramus, malp etc, the % could get pretty strong :D What do you mean by staking exactely? scaling with min/lvl? And would you say that they are ok with these changes or still pretty weak?
Durzaka (NA)
: idk why this was downvoted, have an upvote to even the post out again. As an avid fan of tanks and tanky champions, the entire Resolve tree is just utter garbage, but this tier is especially insulting. It would be worth adding into your OP some pictures of the other trees second tier, because they are all so much more powerful than Resolve it is absolutely ridiculous.
Well some people just downvote it because they dont like it or maybe assumed I would claim something ridiculus inbalanced or maybe just are annoid by the runes post. Anyway I dont care about that, you always have them so why even bother? Would be wasted time and effort xD Yes, I 100% agree the resolve tree feels underwhelming compared to the others. But hey its tanks, there is just so much you can do without overpowering them or make it to usefull for other classes :/ I could make new, shiny, interresting runes, but its very likely they will not be changed extremely anymore atleast until everything is somewhat settled down. Thats why I tried to make the best/most out of the situation and in my eyes improved them a bit. Give me some good stuff to work with and it will be a masterpiece, and give me some shit and I will make it into the fanciest, glamours, polished shit you have ever seen xD Thats my way of doing things. Enough sweet talk, do you think they are improved/decent with my version or are they still to weak (leaving the boringness aside)?
LankPants (OCE)
: I'd prefer to see options other than just raw stats on at least some of the runes. Here's what my ideas would be >**Iron Skin** 2+8% base armour and base MR >**Conditioning** Increase your Armour and MR by 10% at 10 minutes, increased by 5% every 10 minutes after >**Bulwark** Take 10% reduced damage from over 450 units of range I'd prefer if the whole tier wasn't just "which is mathematically the best", which your solution still falls into.
well to be fair everything is "which is mathematically the best", there is no way around that xD But my suggestion is reactiv and not fixed like every other rune! It is situational! Vs a lanebully or a Full AP/AD Comb? Pick ether Single Stat rune, want better overall but only later stats, pick conditioning. So yes its still pretty boring, I 100% agree to that, but atleast you always have a situational decision, and not a fixed "this is the best for my champ", its "this is the best for my situation"! Your early vs scaling suggestion is also reactiv, but just a bit less, because some champs value early and some late. Fewer actually would pick reactiv depending on the matchup. (Tanks for example would always go scaling) But honestely arent your suggestions just raw stats too? xD Iron Skin is still pretty weak, assuming 40 Base, you are not even getting 6 Armor/MR, instead of 2, 4-6 +8% would sound a bit more resonable for the early game tradeoff. Also Conditioning becomes ridiculus past 40 mins, 10% @10min + 2,5%/10min should be good enough. I do like Bulwark, but to be fair its still just a flat stat which you will not feel that much. But it is something a Tank could find usefull and is not that abuseable for other classes.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XcEd2Htk,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-10-06T14:16:24.595+0000) > > I think you missunderstood something here :/ > Iron Skin and Mirror Shell dont merge, and sadly as I would like to have a free slot for experimental runes, they cannot be merged easily because we cant determen which buff (Ar or MR) you want. > But it is not impossible, a &quot;choose option&quot; ingame similar looking to the kindred hunt thing might work. > > As for the Legendary Guardian I personally would stay away from another flat resitance buff, but a situational buff might work. > And we could go all out with this one! > > Tenacity, Slowresistance, Something like brittle(aka lowering tenacity), critreduction, shield &amp; heal buff, HP, flat/% armor/mr and alot more to choose from. > Dmg amps are a bit tricky because we have differs and assassins which could benefit a little to much. read the post above the one you reacted to. we can easily do it.
I have no clue which one you are talking about xD Could you give me a link or a title? That would certainly help! Adaptive is better early, late and vs certain full AD/AP combs, so in general adaptive is stronger then fixed buffs, exept if we make the fixed buff stronger. But why take adaptive if the fixed is already better? There is no point. So conditioning becomes obsolete, there is no point in picking it (like now with Iron Skin and Mirror Shell). So we would need to change Conditioning too. And now we changed the complete triple, which riot will not do now. Maybe after the rest settled they would overhall them. Also sometimes you want some extra flat resistance like MR to round of your build but still want % armor. Or the other way around. So its not as easy to make adaptive resitance as with an adaptive shield.
: No, the merging part is about another thread where Critmaster argued that Iron Skin and Mirror Shell should use the same "Adaptive" mechanism as Damage Runes and take only one Slot. And well, yes we kinda can determine which buff you want. Just check how much damage of each type you took in the last 2-3 minutes or something like that. Also, you don't need a "free slot". There is no rule against 4 Runes in a given Slot, to the contrary. Riot said it would probably happen before the end of next year.
I can understand that but making it adaptive, aka "changing" is not what they are for initaly, it also would completely throw off conditioning. Why would I pick that, if I could have adaptive stronger resistance? Adaptiv resistance is stronger then weaker overall bonuses in the early and lategame. Sometimes you even want some flat MR, maybe for the lane or late to round off the itembuild but still want the % Armor bonus, and thats not possible with adaptiv. And yes I know about that, but they said they would add more IF something good comes up for something like a neglegted playstyle. But for now we can assume the 3/row will be the baseline. So for the adaptive part, conditioning would need to be changed too. And as interesting as it would be riot is somewhat settled on the baseline of them, changing a complete triple is not something they would do right now, maybe later after the rest settled down.
: Tank runes are pretty boring. New runes with interesting effects would be better then +3 armor. (wtf is that compared to dps runes that are so strong could be a keystone by themselves) Some ideas Bone armor: How about a rune that gives you bonus armor premamently if you get kill/assist vs AD champion and magic resist vs AP. Bullet proof: first ranged basic attack on you is negated. 30 sec CD (scaling 30-10 sec CD) Last Defense: upon reaching 10 % HP or less your defense stats increase by 300 % and gain 500 HP for 2 second.
The thing is that these minors can be used by anyone as secondary runes! Now imagen assassins with Last Defense for example, or Bone Armor :/ Thats the tricky part with these runes :D While I definitely agree that they are boring as hell, they atleast will always be reativ. There is never a "best" rune its always depends on the situation not the champ you are playing. Dont get me wrong, I like your ideas! They feel better than just some flat bonuses, but balancing is really troublesome. Bullet Proof is very frustating to play against and a free dogde could be dangerous. Bone Armor, the "need kill/assist" part, is to late for (toplane-)tanks and assassins/junglers like it very much, maybe adcs. So to make it better for tanks % needs to be added, but this could get out of hand very quickly. getting tankier for kills/assist is not so good and makes it hit or miss :/ And Last Defense is ok, but would need a bonus Hp scaling. The problem is its very similar to the nullyfing orb, and normally tanks want overall tankyness/buffs rather then last minute big buffs. But nobody says no to a free buff ;D Thats how I view your ideas, did I get something completely wrong? Or missed a point? Also in general would you see my suggestions ask still to weak, or okish in terms of power? (ignoring the boringness of them)
: after iron skin and mirror shield are turned into one rune, i think legendary guardian (+3 armor/mr for every enemy nearby) should be brought back and take that third slot. so we get: focus on early game power on a single resistance type (iron skin/mirror shield) vs. situational, flat resistances dependent on enemies nearby (legendary guardian) vs. sacrificing early game power for a large resistance boost at 10 minutes with a 5% scaling component (conditioning)
I think you missunderstood something here :/ Iron Skin and Mirror Shell dont merge, and sadly as I would like to have a free slot for experimental runes, they cannot be merged easily because we cant determen which buff (Ar or MR) you want. But it is not impossible, a "choose option" ingame similar looking to the kindred hunt thing might work. As for the Legendary Guardian I personally would stay away from another flat resitance buff, but a situational buff might work. And we could go all out with this one! Tenacity, Slowresistance, Something like brittle(aka lowering tenacity), critreduction, shield & heal buff, HP, flat/% armor/mr and alot more to choose from. Dmg amps are a bit tricky because we have differs and assassins which could benefit a little to much.
Paroe (NA)
: That entire row needs to be actually helpful. Crit resistance, penetration resistance, and damage reduction are all interesting stats that are actually helpful and can be situationally very powerful. Crit resistance; +12-30% crit resistance scaling with level Penetration resistance: 30% penetration resistance (35% becomes 25%, 30 becomes 21) Damage reduction: 10%+1% per minute (up to 20%). If bonus AD is more than 50% of base AD this bonus is lost.
I personally like those ideas, but they are pretty niche and become meaningfull only very late into the game and could be counters/focused only vs certain champs, like yasou. Knowing riot they definitely wouldnt go that route :/ Also these numbers are a bit high considering the current pace and other runes, they are atleast on keystone rune level. And I think Ghostcrawler just mentioned recentely that they would rather fix the root of a problem than just to make a counter to something (Was about an antishield mechanic).
Rioter Comments
Kur0i (NA)
: FNATIC at Worlds 2017
Nocturne had level 6 and more kills than Mao, the toplaner, cs at min 5 xD
AdeBug (NA)
: OK that link is a summary of ur last 5 games or so, and I checked match history and on the 9th page I could finally find a Sion game and it was from 9 months ago. And you are below avg on the link that I posted, but prolly because the avg game is longer than your game. Again, I don't see what you see, on any of the links.
Normals dont get safed there, I can promise you that it was 93% better than the average. The morg game should still be there Edit: crap someone updated it and now even the morg game doesnt show up anymore xD My sion game was 12 days ago, you can check on op.gg
TálØnly (EUW)
: they pretty much nerfed all the dmg of the items in exchange for utility, they changes duskblade from a dmg item to an allrounder now assassins have no item to just push their dmg.
I think the duskblade AD tradeoffs where a bit to much too, but those are just small number adjustments, not new stats or mechanics etc. And dont forget the 99% slow, this will be curcial to get a critical ability off or maybe another AA! It doesnt seem like much, but it is definitely something you will feel! My personal Duskblade would look like this: 3300G 60 AD 10 OOC MS 10% CDR passiv: Blackout passiv: 15 Lethality passiv: Nightstalker: Ether 100 + 100%Lethality True dmg or 150+125%lethality physical dmg. 99% slow for .25s This would be my Duskblade. Remove 300G and you lower the 60AD to 55AD. Makes it more costefficent but overall worse slotefficency
: I reckon most criteria are <whatever stat> per minute to limit the effect of game length a little bit, but of course average stats/min in early game are going to differ from stats/min mid game, and stats/min late game (most likely increasing), so the longer the game goes, the more peoples overall stat/min will be weighted towards those late game big numbers if they've been diligent in whatever stat, which is probably why people tend to find longer game S grades easier than 15 minute early surrender S grades, while at the same time not making early game S's near impossible and late game ones assured.
Yep thats how I, too, think the grading works. The only thing that I dont understand is why every role has it "fairly easy" to get S's even in short games, except for supports... My performance wasnt godlike or anything like that, but even for a <17min games they should be atleast an S-! And certainly not A or A-... And my guess is that the new scores may have tempered a little to much with the marks.
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Lord Desert

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