: As a Main Support, I REALLY miss Frost Queen, Talisman of Ascencion and Face of The Mountain
Or they could just...you know...bring sightstone back AND those actives, then you'd once again have more choices to make whether rushing a sightstone or not, going for the supp item active earlier or not, etc. Yea, we all know, vision dominates pro play so much that HUR DURR IT'S NOT FLASHY ENOUGH BECAUSE, THE HORROR!!! But even then, if they're that desperate for forcing pro play to play with less vision so they're forced to take more risks, then might as well slightly nerf the vision for pro play ONLY, or heck. Constantly removing items, simplying the jungle forcing it into one play-style, spam-gank & more, all in favor of flashy pro play has gotten so annoying over like, the past 2 years now.
: Nightblue3 Fallacy Analysis. Nubrac vs Nightblue3
Anyone who watched everything or almost everything and can put 1 + 1 together will know NB3 makes solid points(albeit unprofessional which he did mention as well), while Nubrac just falls back on "BUT RIOT DOESn'T SPECIFICALLY SAY!..." , that's what someone who wants to abuse a faulty system with faulty rules in order to grief others, or selfishly grab attention at the detriment of others. Here's the bottom line boys & girls: Almost NONE of you would like playing with a guy like that in ranked, especially at high elo,heck not even at mid elo. It's like an unspoken rule in this case, that had to be spoken by both NB3 and Tarzaned. He makes the game very un-enjoyable because he wants to be this "creative" hot-shot with a strat that's not even very effective. Even if they both got banned, it doesn't change the fact that the large majority of players will ALWAYS have a better experience & prefer playing with NB3 and will have a fairly miserable experience with this guy. Imagine if you and your group of friends go for a soccer game and this dude who's supposed to be the goalkeeper now decides that he's not gonna do that so that he can go out in the field on the premise that "we'll outnumber them on the field!, that's my strat!". None of you agrees with what he's doing, but he does it anyway. Even if it wouldn't be set-in-stone that it's not against the rules for him to do that, you're all gonna be pissed that he's doing it despite you all not agreeing that it's OK for him to do it.
: It's really beyond me. The E nerf if actually substantial from a technical standpoint, but it won't do anything to affect Riven's absolute dominance. Her E is used to get literally free trades or to obliviate poke, both of which are technically affected by the nerd, but not enough to warrant a compensation buff. Now Riven's just need to wait slightly longer before trading, that's it. Most substantial poke vs her isn't often enough to make a difference with the nerf. Now she just has to be more patient while having a far stronger all in at all ranks. You are right though, none of the things that make her truly problematic are being addressed. Like her ultimate, which needs the time to walk back into lane to come off CD while being one of the best ults in the game. Like how her damage is so extreme she is statistically considered a Poppy COUNTER at this point. Like how CRD items are stronger than they've probably ever been and she thrives of rushing them, like how she fits in a pantheon of 3-5 champs that can break Shonen while its useless to the rest of the cast. Or Conqueror, which is still far to oppressive considering it's unjustifiable true damage that makes it a balance nightmare. I really don't know what Riot is thinking, because at this point you can only assume they want her to be the BEST soloQ champ while also being proplay strong, which is something we are supposed to believe they won't allow to happen. In my mind, every patch where Riven remains competitively viable while being pick/ban in soloQ is a betrayal from Riot to it's playerbase, and they should be ashamed
> [{quoted}](name=Tremaursen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OZ5WaEcX,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-05-03T23:29:07.184+0000) > > It's really beyond me. The E nerf if actually substantial from a technical standpoint, but it won't do anything to affect Riven's absolute dominance. Her E is used to get literally free trades or to obliviate poke, both of which are technically affected by the nerd, but not enough to warrant a compensation buff. Now Riven's just need to wait slightly longer before trading, that's it. Most substantial poke vs her isn't often enough to make a difference with the nerf. Now she just has to be more patient while having a far stronger all in at all ranks. > > You are right though, none of the things that make her truly problematic are being addressed. Like her ultimate, which needs the time to walk back into lane to come off CD while being one of the best ults in the game. Like how her damage is so extreme she is statistically considered a Poppy COUNTER at this point. Like how CRD items are stronger than they've probably ever been and she thrives of rushing them, like how she fits in a pantheon of 3-5 champs that can break Shonen while its useless to the rest of the cast. Or Conqueror, which is still far to oppressive considering it's unjustifiable true damage that makes it a balance nightmare. > > I really don't know what Riot is thinking, because at this point you can only assume they want her to be the BEST soloQ champ while also being proplay strong, which is something we are supposed to believe they won't allow to happen. > > In my mind, every patch where Riven remains competitively viable while being pick/ban in soloQ is a betrayal from Riot to it's playerbase, and they should be ashamed +1 The compensation nerfs are ??? however if I would've chosen one part of her kit to nerf, it would've definitely been her shield. This will at least give one a greater chance to snowball on her, or poke her out of lane. Honeslty I wouldn't mind the Q compensation buffs if they'd give one more nerf to her shield, that being to it's fairly high AD ratio. It would take her closer to a feast or famine champion, rather than one who can feast but also play safe till late if need. She'll always still be a monster late now, due to DD in particular and to a lesser degree, conqueror(since it keeps getting nerfs) but hey, at least she'll have a harder time getting there. LIKE A HYPER SCALING CHAMP SHOULD.
Cloud273 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B1wEWzjY,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-03-07T11:43:32.146+0000) > > And the fighters who can't generally have nowhere else to go. > > And by tanks I mean Sion. > > This is what happens when you design a bunch of melee characters to sit in a vacuum with other melee characters and then let ranged champs dumpster lane + outscale for almost no effort. > > The only fighters who are worth picking, especially blind picking, are the fighters who stand a chance against BS like Kennen, Jayce, and Vlad. And now Neeko is going top with some dumb on hit build (Neeko has higher winrates every lane except mid this patch, lol) and cheesing fighters with her high damage and natural kiting. > > When is this going to end? How many ranged champions have to shit up top lane season after season before we look at fixing a clearly systemic issue between melee tops and ranged champs? You forgot Teemo. Can't forget about that bullsh*t. Anyways, I think the problem is bruisers and tanks don't have enough base health/armor/magic resist. Bruisers and tanks should either be tankier in the early game, or be tankier in the late game (scaling health/armor/mr) so they can deal with these ranged bullies.
> [{quoted}](name=Cloud273,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B1wEWzjY,comment-id=0034,timestamp=2019-03-08T22:39:35.933+0000) > > You forgot Teemo. Can't forget about that bullsh*t. Anyways, I think the problem is bruisers and tanks don't have enough base health/armor/magic resist. Bruisers and tanks should either be tankier in the early game, or be tankier in the late game (scaling health/armor/mr) so they can deal with these ranged bullies. Not only the base stat thing, but the fact that there are so many mixed dmg sources in the game, including % max hp dmg and true dmg. But DEFENSIVE stats, not offensive like Riot often proceeds. They get to OP levels when they have just enough dmg to 100-0 ppl. Defenses are seriously lacking though, especially mr. Looking at wiki stats, bruisers & tanks have at most just a few extra hp & and mr/armor than other squishi classes.
Lovelle (NA)
: The easiest fix would be to improve defensive itemization and scaling, but Riot seems to be afraid of defensive options being good for whatever reason. You can't really have a strategy game without good defensive options imo.
> [{quoted}](name=Lovelle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B1wEWzjY,comment-id=0035,timestamp=2019-03-09T19:19:19.249+0000) > > The easiest fix would be to improve defensive itemization and scaling, but Riot seems to be afraid of defensive options being good for whatever reason. > > You can't really have a strategy game without good defensive options imo. We all know what they're afraid of: that the game won't be flashy enough for all the kids to understand pro play. Gotta keep 1-2 kills per min in an average game u kno...
Tioym (EUW)
: Riot's Logic: Oh you only face Jayce 2-4 Times Every 100 Games so He's fine Top. Me: *Starts League to play 2 games Only & vs Jayce both games* Also Me: Well I guess I'm not going to have fun playing a GAME today.
> [{quoted}](name=Tioym,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B1wEWzjY,comment-id=0031,timestamp=2019-03-08T19:31:39.903+0000) > > Riot's Logic: Oh you only face Jayce 2-4 Times Every 100 Games so He's fine Top. > Me: *Starts League to play 2 games Only & vs Jayce both games* > Also Me: Well I guess I'm not going to have fun playing a GAME today. Then you're on the 3rd game, it's a Kennen. 4th game, a Gnar, 5th game, Cass top, 6th game On-hit Neeko,wooo we on a roll.
: Shrinking. Yet of the highest picked top laners, only two are ranged and the rest are melee fighters/bruisers. Jayce, riven, vlad, irelia, sylas, renekton, Darius, jax, yorick, and Fiora. Two are ranged. The others are melees who fall into the bruiser category and none of them are tanks. This is according to Op.gg but I'm sure the story is the same at other websites too. Bruisers are fine. They have been fine for over a season now. Bruiser mains are just upset that their rune(which was the best one in the game and only useable by AD melee champions such as themselves) is finally getting nerfed and put into proper balance. They still have the best items with the most build diversity and despite being "melee" many of them scale harder and better than any ADC while still having ostentatiously better early games.
> [{quoted}](name=OtterlyLost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B1wEWzjY,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-03-07T13:28:28.371+0000) > > Shrinking. Yet of the highest picked top laners, only two are ranged and the rest are melee fighters/bruisers. Jayce, riven, vlad, irelia, sylas, renekton, Darius, jax, yorick, and Fiora. > > Two are ranged. The others are melees who fall into the bruiser category and none of them are tanks. This is according to Op.gg but I'm sure the story is the same at other websites too. > > Bruisers are fine. They have been fine for over a season now. Bruiser mains are just upset that their rune(which was the best one in the game and only useable by AD melee champions such as themselves) is finally getting nerfed and put into proper balance. They still have the best items with the most build diversity and despite being "melee" many of them scale harder and better than any ADC while still having ostentatiously better early games. Jax has literally been nerfed into oblivion and will loose vs anyone lane vs literally anyone(maybe besides kayle, but cannon minion till lvl 11 champ doesn't count). His scaling was hit as well, bvesides coming later so he won't be as strong. Fiora suffers from her expensive itemization, and was meant to excel vs tanks which barely see the light of day anyway. Yorick was barely allowed a short time to be fairly strong before getting addressed. Darius & Rene prob suffer the most vs all these ranged top mages because their only purpose is to bully lane and win hard, and these champs will bully them instead. Legit no reason to pick 'em, same for illaoi. Sylas despite being melee is still a mage who benefits from mage itemization, which is OP. No idea why u listen Vlad there. {{champion:92}} is, as we all know too well, daddy Rito's favorite spoiled baby girl - the Mary Sue of league, so is beyond a lot of the balance changes the rest of the bruiser plebs go through. Irelia has been cancer since rework and one should never use her as an example.
: bugger off, if you don't let her have 2 kill by min 6 she is useless. The problem with Yasuo is that he scales off having no weaknesses. For Riven however if you know how to play against her she becomes useless out of laning phase
Would be great if that was still the case, but it hasn't been for a while now. Conqueror,DD and ER make her into a late game monster. Twitch Rivals showed this clearly when some of them lost terribly early but scaled hard and murdered everyone. High elo streams show this too ,as well as my mid-elo games. Heck,you even see it at low levels. Try harder bro.
: Wait, Riven matches up to 6 of those points... -thinking-
Ya, and as the longest-standing member to fit the list, surprised she didn't get a prime mention. Let's not casually try to keep her under the radar because she's popular and all Rito xD
baachou (NA)
: What are Urgot's and Jax's weaknesses? Jax in particular isn't weak to anything in particular late game while being able to farm early with threat from E. With ER/Spear, all his spells reset in less than 1.5 seconds (R -> spear proc -> Q auto -> W-reset -> auto). He also has defensive abilities against both physical and magic damage (2 defensive abilities vs physical) Multiple high-level analysts have commented that you have turned Irelia into basically a worse version of Jax that's harder to play. This is pretty accurate - her stun is less reliable, her passive is worse, and in order to get infinite dashes she needs to hit her abilities, as opposed to rushing an item and resetting dash by hitting stuff over the head with a lamp post and obscene AS.
Jax is weak to mages in general, very weak even, and that applies both early and in mid-to- late game team fights as well. He might stand a chance to 1v1 them eventually of course, but that's his thing, the 1v1 late game, so you shouldn't be playing his game anyway. He also has no range tools to farm safely with,lack of waveclear and just one damage mitigation tool(albeit a strong one vs AAs) that's on a fairly high cooldown for about half of the game. He actually has mana costs so nothing he does is ever free, and the typical old-school 1-mobility tool that he has makes sure he'll be punished if he goes in at the wrong time,since there's no follow up dashes to get out. ER/Speark makes him incredibly oppressive mid-late game vs AA champs, but then again, that's his main strength. Tanks can also deny something like Jax in a team fight pretty hard. As for Urgot, mages will also keep him at bay while also being able to not allow him to escape. Enchanters(if they'd be viable...) could potentially also make him pretty useless.
: So while Yasuo is getting alot of attention, im thinking about {{champion:92}} Heres the list again for you to read thinking about riven. Powerful reactive defenses (big shields, invulnerability, untargetability) Very short windows of downtime (short cooldowns, spells you can hold for reactive plays while still being highly effective, ammo) Many abilities with low or no cast times Very strong waveclear or wave control Fallbacks cover weaknesses too well - for example a “weak laning phase” champion that has tools to farm perfectly from afar Mobility tools that don't have cast or target restrictions Wall crossing abilities Very high dash speeds Range advantages No early game counter matchups Flex pick ability to avoid counters (matters particularly in pro play) You can add this this list 1- defensive abilities that scale with offense 2-little or no cost to abilities 3-Having bad combinations of abilities such as: burst + mobility. cc+ burst. low cd's +burst. So a short cooldown, manaless champion, with high mobility, burst, cc, and a ranged execute, plus ad empowered shield= definition of overloaded. She also gets better the higher elo you go which is something riot usually scrutinizes highly
I'm actually surprised(and salty) she wasn't mentioned as a prime example of a "no weaknesses if played properly" champ, since she's the longest standing one to fit the list. Interestingly enough in her case, her weakness becomes apparent in LCS-level of play, where the synergy of a team can capitalize on the one thing that'll really still screw her over nowadays: the fact that they can IMMEDIATELY focus fire her while CC'd to burst her down before she starts dashing,shielding & CC'ing all over the place. But not that's really an acceptable weakness when you need both pro player skill,communication and overall synergy. Anything below that and the stars won't align to capitalize on the fact that she's still a squishy champ stat wise that need's to get in melee. Whenever I look at high challenger games, heck even 5v5 ones like Twitch Rivals showed this, I'll see CC's go to waste since the damage doesn't follow up, or it does but it's not enough, or the damage comes w/o the cc and she just avoids it or mitigates it with all the tools she has. Goes without saying that ignoring her is never an option as she'll quickly murder anything that's not a tank, and eventually them as well.
: Tanks need damage to tank Look up a youtube series on it. If tanks dont have damage they are no treat when happening to get in the back line and ccing an adc or mage who have tons of cc themselves shield heals and lifesteal with no way to threaten those back line carries it never makes sense to go into the backline to stop the main damage threats and cause you'd never be able really threaten a carry with no defense despite all of your investments into defense that wont be able to tank them long cause anytime you do they cry look at these broken tanks i invest into damage but i cant kill them in 4 seconds (while ignore that tanks invest into defense bruiser are supposed to invest into both while being just as vulnerable and ap mordekaiser invests into nothing while being significantly more safe than those 2 classes or a supposed bruiser like dianna who goes full assassin.
> [{quoted}](name=LordGeovanni,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NP7pRE3J,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2019-01-10T23:34:07.471+0000) > > Tanks need damage to tank Look up a youtube series on it. > If tanks dont have damage they are no treat when happening to get in the back line and ccing an adc or mage who have tons of cc themselves shield heals and lifesteal with no way to threaten those back line carries it never makes sense to go into the backline to stop the main damage threats and cause you'd never be able really threaten a carry with no defense despite all of your investments into defense that wont be able to tank them long cause anytime you do they cry look at these broken tanks i invest into damage but i cant kill them in 4 seconds (while ignore that tanks invest into defense bruiser are supposed to invest into both while being just as vulnerable and ap mordekaiser invests into nothing while being significantly more safe than those 2 classes or a supposed bruiser like dianna who goes full assassin. As said before in this thread and many times over in others. Make their threat be the very fact that they can disrupt well enough and the enemy will feel pressured to deal with them so they can actually do stuff - let the damage over time from items like Sunfire(on that topic,perhaps make 1 or 2 more DoT times as well) ,or DoT skills be their damage threat, where it becomes threat not because it's high, but because you've been getting hit by it for long enough that it's becoming a threat. And yea, sustain will obviously be a huge counter to that, and so what? Everything should have counters,especially when said counters cost gold and need some time to get them. Heck, give 'em some debuffs that perhaps reduce the enemy damage/sustain/attack speed/cdr/mana drain/YOU NAME IT! while the tank is in their face or in close proximity to them. There's just so many ways besides just upping their base damage. For more ways of them to do the damage they do need, make it revolve around being a tank. You can do this through skills & items that reflect a portion of damage, or simply lower base damage and up scaling so they can build some damage items, at the cost of tankiness of course. These base damage buffs to tanks(while reducing their CC & tankiness to make up for it to boot) is just plain lazy. It's making the tank play similar to an assassin/bruiser with more CC. There's already enough blurr between champions nowadays since they all seem to just do burst damage and 100-0 you, why make the problem worse...
FSRER (EUNE)
: They created the problem..... THEN IT'S THEIR FREAKING JOB TO FIX IT.
> [{quoted}](name=FSRER,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NP7pRE3J,comment-id=00000003,timestamp=2019-01-09T16:52:25.891+0000) > > They created the problem..... THEN IT'S THEIR FREAKING JOB TO FIX IT. Well yea, and some of us who want a fun & healthy soloQ experience, with some strategic layers to it, a proper well defined early-mid & late game and comebacks that aren't just the enemy team being dipshits and throwing to give a billion gold in bounties,are genuinely trying to give suggestions here. Among 100 suggestions, 10 or so might be worth looking into. This particular complaint about bad ways of balancing tanks and about damage creep has been echo'ed throughout the boards & reddit over long periods of time. At that point, wish they'd actually consider not doing the complete opposite.
: The problem is until they nerf everyone else's damage, Sejuani needed this. Honestly getting a whole bunch of Armor and MR for free was a bad passive to start with because you can't easily balance that. You run into the problem of forcing Sej into one role and then you have to make sure her damage is so weak that the fact she is almost impossible o kill is still balanced. Just a nightmare to balance when you throw in pro play who barely need her to do damage at all to be a unstoppable force.
> [{quoted}](name=OneMustFall,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NP7pRE3J,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2019-01-09T15:17:42.760+0000) > > The problem is until they nerf everyone else's damage, Sejuani needed this. Honestly getting a whole bunch of Armor and MR for free was a bad passive to start with because you can't easily balance that. You run into the problem of forcing Sej into one role and then you have to make sure her damage is so weak that the fact she is almost impossible o kill is still balanced. Just a nightmare to balance when you throw in pro play who barely need her to do damage at all to be a unstoppable force. If they realize it's such a nightmare to balance her for pro play ever single her rework(which it is, we all know this), then maybe it's about time they admit the rework was a major failure and consider a revert, buffing/nerfing her accordingly to fit the current jungle. Add {{champion:154}} to that list , and {{champion:13}} ,etc. There's nothing wrong with having some champions that work only for soloQ. Some champs like{{champion:86}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:23}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:77}} {{champion:17}} {{champion:35}} {{champion:80}} ,heck even {{champion:24}} most of the time are generally accepted to be champs mainly for soloQ. Could you imagine them trying to rework {{champion:23}} for instance to make him pro play viable but then making another unholy mess of a champ that can never be balanced for both? Yea, let's not go there. They'd have enough champs for pro play if at least half the rooster was closer in power, without there being champs that are S+/S/A+/A compared to everyone else. Doesn't matter if those high tier champs change every couple of months/weeks even, they should try to have a wider viable champ pool available AT THE SAME TIME. Thing is, I don't think they'll ever nerf everyone's damage at this rate, and giving one of the classes that would have other ways to be viable other than high dmg(tanks on top & jungle,tanky supports, enchanters) more damage just to keep up. I mean, if they ain't gonna start with these classes, where will they start? I guess a major patch where they cut down on everyone's damage,keystones included would be the only other option but honestly that feels like chasing unicorns at this point.
Ryvaku (NA)
: Let's be honest. Tanks like {{champion:113}} won't even be that good compared to the same junglers that you seen in your games consistently. Not sure if you are complaining over soloq or pro play. It can't really be both.
> [{quoted}](name=Ryvaku,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NP7pRE3J,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-01-09T13:32:39.599+0000) > > Let's be honest. Tanks like {{champion:113}} won't even be that good compared to the same junglers that you seen in your games consistently. > > Not sure if you are complaining over soloq or pro play. It can't really be both. Point of the complaint is that this way of balancing tanks that they've been doing over the more recent years, especially s7/s8, the more damage/less CC & tankiness way, is just bad, I've explained why, and many others have done so before during all this time. It's not about tossing me or others a cookie by making one or two champs the way we want in order to get us to shut up. It's about overall game health. {{champion:113}} is just the most recent example of this problem so I used her. It could've been any tank.
: while i agree with less damage sejuani needs that damage as they gutted her damage to get her to the place where she is now. sejuani needs her damage back up but more importantly she needs a useable passive not one that falls off in poke with no way to get it back except going afk that is horrible design for a front liner and the main reason tanks stopped picking up {{item:3102}} so they changed it to ap instead of giving the aps their own item and taking the stuping needing to be out of combat to get back a shield that was already super long cooldown (for what it gives at least) Not long cooldown for things like youmuus and ruind king and hex tech items
> [{quoted}](name=LordGeovanni,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NP7pRE3J,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-01-09T06:09:46.623+0000) > > while i agree with less damage sejuani needs that damage as they gutted her damage to get her to the place where she is now. sejuani needs her damage back up but more importantly she needs a useable passive not one that falls off in poke with no way to get it back except going afk that is horrible design for a front liner and the main reason tanks stopped picking up {{item:3102}} so they changed it to ap instead of giving the aps their own item and taking the stuping needing to be out of combat to get back a shield that was already super long cooldown (for what it gives at least) Not long cooldown for things like youmuus and ruind king and hex tech items Tanks like her wouldn't need all that dmg if they'd have other ways to carry, like better CC and items that synergize better with their tanky stats & CCs. Items who's CC's scale of tankiness, CC's who's range/radius/aoe and length scale of tanky stats, perhaps damage more ways of damage reflection, single target,circle aoe, cone,etc that also scale off tanky stats. If you can't carry by killing your target, then you can still carry by slowing 'em down long enough that either your damage over time starts adding up significantly or your allies might just have time to reach you to do their part. Once again, old Sej is a fine example of a champ who could actually do this.
: > [{quoted}](name=Manly Tear,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NP7pRE3J,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-01-09T00:32:39.505+0000) > > I myself and a few others were carrying games using pre-reworked Sej who was doing exactly that pretty well actually. A lot of battlefield control with the tankiness to boot. To be honest, she wasn't actually that tanky compared to most tanks but she her appeared to be so due to the damage she prevented through her plentiful CCs. She wasn't even picked in pro play at all but did pretty well for the few people who played her in soloQ. And she wasn't 100-0 anyone unless you'd make some whacky,squishy ap build. > > I think it's pretty easy to solve tbh. Yeah, the 2 people that played her did well... while the vast majority didn't.. gee I wonder who has more leverage... Sorry but no, it's not an easy fix and you doing well with a terrible champion means nothing. There were people that did great with pre-reworked eve, poppy and yorick even though most everyone agreed that they were troll picks due to how horrendous they were. A few people doing well means nothing when the vast majority can barely make the champion function
> [{quoted}](name=ZephyrDrake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NP7pRE3J,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-09T00:54:55.865+0000) > > Yeah, the 2 people that played her did well... while the vast majority didn't.. gee I wonder who has more leverage... > > Sorry but no, it's not an easy fix and you doing well with a terrible champion means nothing. There were people that did great with pre-reworked eve, poppy and yorick even though most everyone agreed that they were troll picks due to how horrendous they were. A few people doing well means nothing when the vast majority can barely make the champion function Won't disagree with that, though I do think she was genuinely good and more people would've done well with her if they gave her a chance. But the main point of the thread still stands, that attempting to balance tanks by making them tank & cc less while doing more burst damage is just bad. It creates those nasty situations where for instance, a Poppy is an obnoxious lane bully, super annoying to play against due to Q spam to the point where it feels cheesy, but then outside of lane, she doesn't really fulfill her actual vanguard role because she just blows up.
: Any time a champion has too much CC to ignore and the durability to survive and do well, they tend to be exceedingly powerful in pro play and borderline irrelevant everywhere else due to much weaker coordination _(unless their numbers are so overtuned that they do well EVERYWHERE, which is obviously a bad thing)_. It's not an easy problem to solve, really.
> [{quoted}](name=Lunaranul,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NP7pRE3J,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-09T00:13:16.416+0000) > > Any time a champion has too much CC to ignore and the durability to survive and do well, they tend to be exceedingly powerful in pro play and borderline irrelevant everywhere else due to much weaker coordination _(unless their numbers are so overtuned that they do well EVERYWHERE, which is obviously a bad thing)_. > > It's not an easy problem to solve, really. I myself and a few others were carrying games using pre-reworked Sej who was doing exactly that pretty well actually. A lot of battlefield control with the tankiness to boot. To be honest, she wasn't actually that tanky compared to most tanks but she her appeared to be so due to the damage she prevented through her plentiful CCs. She wasn't even picked in pro play at all but did pretty well for the few people who played her in soloQ. And she wasn't 100-0 anyone unless you'd make some whacky,squishy ap build. I think it's pretty easy to solve tbh, due to the fact that not every champ needs to be pro play viable. Heck, Riven's the Rito's soloQ poster girl that very rarely, if at all, appears in pro play, and that seems to be pretty accepted overall.
Rioter Comments
: You were at 4 kills and 2 deaths. Taking a wild guess those 2 deaths happened before your killstreak. CS wise you have 9 cs more than Yi guessing he was the toplaner. Not a big difference but is added on to your bounty sooner or later. Looking at this, we can tell that killsteak matters to a bounty more than individual kills. ( Veigar at 8/0 with 1k bounty vs Fiora at 4/2 with 1k bounty means a triple killstreak added to your mostly undisturbed cs'ing makes you just as potentially powerful as Veigar. ) You can see this occurring with TF as well, who's 6/2/5 and yet only 0.9k. Solely because he has less CS. Also why Pyke has 9 kills but only 0.6k. It's because he's not farming. He's not continuously making gold for potential power spike items thus isn't as much of a threat as a Fiora who's winning lane.
> [{quoted}](name=Mega Audinoz,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2Ayc99mV,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-27T03:30:24.460+0000) > > You were at 4 kills and 2 deaths. Taking a wild guess those 2 deaths happened before your killstreak. > CS wise you have 9 cs more than Yi guessing he was the toplaner. Not a big difference but is added on to your bounty sooner or later. > Looking at this, we can tell that killsteak matters to a bounty more than individual kills. > ( Veigar at 8/0 with 1k bounty vs Fiora at 4/2 with 1k bounty means a triple killstreak added to your mostly undisturbed cs'ing makes you just as potentially powerful as Veigar. ) > > You can see this occurring with TF as well, who's 6/2/5 and yet only 0.9k. Solely because he has less CS. > Also why Pyke has 9 kills but only 0.6k. It's because he's not farming. He's not continuously making gold for potential power spike items thus isn't as much of a threat as a Fiora who's winning lane. I was actually not nearly as much of a threat as Veigar, who had quite a bit of gold in the bank and just hadn't shopped since the enemy team was just playing suicide squad into him, barely giving him time to go back. I also wasn't even actually winning lane, and my items vs Yi's items reflect that. I could, in fact, only duel him in my tower, while playing round-around-the-rosy with him and just barely making it out with a kill. Never was I strong enough to 1v1 him in the open, most attempts ending with me being forced to flee, or me just playing bait for my team. The way this works makes me think it's literally just most effective to die after every 1-2 kills,as long as you get your farm(and perhaps some tower platting). Why I find this frustrating is that if for instance, you're getting camped by the enemy jungler, you do the smart thing by wasting their time and backing off whenever you're in danger of dying. Now, you're not giving 'em any gold so that's the best you can do in your situation right? Well, at least not yet... Eventually, you manage to get back up in farm, maybe even score a kill or two on as they fail a dive on your inner turret. Now you have a bounty on your head(and apparently it's easy to get a huge one too), when you've merely managed to equal your laner due to all the platting missed and the fact that you've left your team to 4 v 5 while you try to catch-up, which can have way more value than you catching up or just being slightly ahead in gold over your laner now(assuming the enemy top and jungle didn't sit on you non-stop and just came for some random dumb dive later on).
: If your team leaves the enemy Nasus to farm for the whole game and he has taken all top towers and has a CS of 300 at ~23 min, what would you prefer. A) He's 0/0/12 without a bounty, so even though 4 v 1'ing him gives you nothing in return; your whole team dies to him. B) He's 0/0/12 with a 1000G bounty, and your team is rewarded 1000G after 4 v 1'ing him; after he took all three inhibitors without allies. Your choice. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-popcorn}}
> [{quoted}](name=Mega Audinoz,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2Ayc99mV,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-27T03:05:40.122+0000) > > If your team leaves the enemy Nasus to farm for the whole game and he has taken all top towers and has a CS of 300 at ~23 min, what would you prefer. > > A) He's 0/0/12 without a bounty, so even though 4 v 1'ing him gives you nothing in return; your whole team dies to him. > B) He's 0/0/12 with a 1000G bounty, and your team is rewarded 1000G after 4 v 1'ing him; after he took all three inhibitors without allies. > > Your choice. > {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-popcorn}} But that's assuming he has a lot of cs and good KP. 300 cs at 23m and 12 assists with no deaths for a Nasus means he's done WAY more than just struggle to survive a lane early(which the enemy laner should try to punish). I had no cs lead in that game, nor a high KP. I had nothing to show for my bounty basically. And if a team literally let's a Nasus take so many towers,inhis even, and farm so much then by all rights, they're getting what they deserved. Why would doing something so bad be rewarded?
Rioter Comments
xelaker (NA)
: Stop changing the game every 2 patches Riot
I've adapted & adapted & adapted over the years but I'm just sick & tired of it. I actually wanna feel like it's worth investing enough time & effort to master some champs, some strategies w/o the fear that it could all be for nothing in the next patch. And this has been getting really out of control as of late too.
: Im tired of change, not game
This ring's so true, and honestly, more light should be given to this topic, more threads should pop in reddit & around these boards. The game will never be truly balanced but there are some good patches here & there, but they just don't last at all. Thinking about it, in one such patch, if given enough time people could eventually develop their own winning strats, which above all is super fun & feels very rewarding. Even pros could truly master a few strats w/o the stress of constant change(I recall even Regi pointing out how his players really disliked how the constant changes are back in s6 or 7 I believe). Tons of sports keep the same rules for years, and if we're to talk about games, even mobas at that, dota 2 doesn't have nearly as many changes as league. As it stands we have HUGE chances every pre-season and small to mediocre changes every 2 weeks. Even worse, we can have big changes in a random patch throughout the year, just like what the current 8,11 did to bot lane. I've kept adapting over the years myself, been through situations like a pool of 5-6 freaking champs becoming complete garbage tier in the next season, adapted again & again. And yea sure, you can do it, but there comes a point where you wonder why are you doing it? Are you enjoying it? I know I'm not. Heck, it actually gives me less incentive to get out of my champion comfort zone and pick up a few that I always wanted to play - with the intent of trying to master 'em that is. But league has become the LEAST REWARDING game when it comes to mastering champions & strategies.

Manly Tear

Level 97 (EUW)
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