: Heimerdinger Main. Expressing my problems with this champion.
> [{quoted}](name=SavageDinger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oxlcxZgj,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-05-28T14:26:45.739+0000) > > I apologize in advance for the long read here. It's primarily just my opinion and point of view on Heimerdinger. I am a Heimerdinger one trick currently and have had countless games with him, my win rate was at 64% with him so please do not think I'm talking out of spite or rage, I know what I am saying here and I feel that it is accurate. > > {{champion:74}} Heimerdinger, my current main champion. Needs to be seriously looked at by riot and again reworked because they have trashed heimerdinger. > > As of 5/28/2018, my favorite champion, an AP Mage Donger, has a static passive at ALL levels. 20% movement speed buff near his turrets and friendly towers. > > Ways this passive are useful: > I had a sarcastic paragraph here but I figure I will sum this up to a smaller one: I have never needed this passive more than the old passive. A static 20% movement speed bonus is not not enough nor good enough to be on a champion as particular as Heimerdinger. This passive does nothing to meaningfully serve Heimerdinger's kit. Its a very situational and disappointing passive on an AP Mage. Name another AP Mage that legitimately relies on speed. If you did, good for you, Heimerdinger is a champion like most others that needs damage. maybe some sort of cc passive would actually make him interesting. > > > Ways this passive is bad: If you're not near a friendly turret, you're passive is nearly useless. no speed boost. If you don't have any of your max of 3 turrets to place, your passive speed boost doesn't happen yay! (Its like not having a passive altogether! wow!) you only have 3 turrets that can be destroyed with minimal effort by most champ abilities so make sure those 7 units of space you gained off your passive were the 7 most intelligent units of space you could move through because every champion in this game with a gap closer is about to close that flash gap with their gap closers (And still keep their own flash mind you) > > Heimerdinger's E: Riot, you disrespect heimerdingers everywhere when you decided it was a smart idea to nerf heimer's ONLY CC ABILITY. The Heimer E is trashed to hell. You might dead-on land that E on your target but guess what? DOESN'T COUNT. NO STUN FOR YOU. Oh, the E landed dead-on and it even charged your turret beams!? TOO BAD, NO STUN. Your only CC ability WHICH IS A SKILL SHOT with a 10+ second cooldown, does not guarantee a stun upon hitting but might slow the target. MIGHT. > > Heimerdinger's damage: as if adding a nerfed passive and a nerfed E wasn't enough, they decide to cripple the Ult damage and break it in half. Ok. This one, I can meet you half way on. Heimer's ultimate damage was through the roof. but to fully nerf ALL THREE ULTS by cutting the damage in half? You didn't even bother to buff his Q after nerfing EVERY other ability on him and that's exactly what it is, A NERF. Other champions see more effort and care over the course of several patches being balanced and rebalanced CONSTANTLY while Riot CHOOSES to ignore the less popular champions because that doesn't scream MONEY to them. > > heimerdinger's turret AI logic: this is the icing on the cake. The ball buster of the problems. Back in the day, anyone stepped into the range of heimer's turrets, they would instantly target one of the enemy champs if within range. Now its required that we auto attack the target? Im required as a squishy AP Mage to get up close and dirty to select what my turrets fire at? Are you serious Riot? The turrets usedto be like zyra's plants are right now, except her plants do far more damage and work in a shorter timeframe, a support. > The turret AI since the rework of heimer is absolutely a let down in every way. They do not prioritize intelligently or even automatically target low health targets anymore, hell, they can literally just CHOOSE to stop firing at targets all together, even the ult turret will stop fighting mid teamfight and sit there for several seconds when it had plenty of time to fire 4, 5 even 6 more shots. Riot, you can easily fix this bug by returning the power of target select to the controlling player. Give us the power to decide who we want to target. Your AI is genuinely stupid and cannot make on the fly decisions like a human being. GIVE US THE CONTROL BACK. > > The Bugs of Heimerdinger: A turret fires at a target and the target moves out of range. The turret keeps firing its bolt at the target regardless of location on the map, regardless of distance. it does not damage outside of range however it does act as a location ping system on that last target it was firing at. This presents issues, I have rarely seen this 'ping' the target when the target was hidden in the fog of war but its not unseen, i was able to hunt a rengar {{champion:107}} several times over the course of a match because my Turret kept firing on rengar regardless of range and location, even when hidden in the fog of war. > Heimer's E landing epicenter of the target and NOT stunning the target. This shit needs to STOP. This right here is directly impacting not only my game play as a heimerdinger, but the game play of my friends whom i have enticed into playing heimerdinger. It will proc my turrets to fully beam charge but not proc the stun? Either this ability lands and Stuns your target because you earned that stun or you might as well just take heimerdinger out of the game since you want to make him a champion that pretty much has no meaningful CC. Its bad enough its a skill shot with an OBNOXIOUS cooldown, it only becomes exponentially crappier when you land that shot and it doesn't even make an impact because the CC doesn't even work. When i fight galio{{champion:3}} (Just one example), who posses 3 heavy CC abilities, where in there is the playing field remotely even when I have to keep dodging CC left and right and the only CC to return fire with is a skill shot that doesn't even guarantee time to breathe? > > Fix the E 'slow' either buff his slow for a longer more meaningful slow, or make the ability stun only. its not that complicated. > Fix the E Stun Circumference, the only the reason they shouldn't be stunned is because they were on the very outskirts of the E circumference. > > > My suggestion on heimerdinger improvements: > > Actually give him some fair effort, don't just slap random nerfs on him and call it an day. Giving him a speed boost passive that is VERY SITUATIONAL has made playing heimerdinger a tilting chore. Give heimerdinger what heimerdinger wants. Some form of damage or even some sort of a tank-like passive, maybe something to do with cool downs on his High Cooldown Timer abilities. Consider lowering the cooldown on his abilities overall due to the fact, that again, you chose to hard nerf his E,completely waste his Passive, hard nerf his 3 separate ult abilities while lowering his mana regen, health regen, and damage output overall. If you don't want to put any effort into his passive, at least allow the passive to scale with level(20%,22%24% SOMETHING PLZ) similar to other champs because a static 20% all game is laughable. It doesn't even make sense to give heimer that type of passive, it just doesn't. Give Heimerdinger more turrets to hold in reserve. Im not saying give him 10 or even 5, but to hold onto a 4th turret in reserve would genuinely be nice. Its not fun having to wait 10+ seconds to use any one ability on any champion. So why do it to Heimerdinger? A champion as squishy and prioritized as Heimerdinger often is, needs something more. > > Even the high tier Heimerdinger one tricks do not one trick heimerdinger anymore. The people I looked up to to learn from have stopped playing himm because he has lost so much viability. I'm talking across several tiers including the high elo, including everyone's favorite donger main in challenger. The champion is an absolute mess right now and something needs to be done here. > > Heimerdinger is the revered inventor, allow him to invent(like its that hard) a better passive and nerfs that don't cripple his effectiveness. I have mained several champions in the past and all of them have been reworked. Heimerdinger is the last champion I'm willing to give League of Legends ANY of my time with. > > Feel free to add a more clear and oriented version of your point of view as to why Riot clearly hates Heimerdinger. > > What are your opinions on how we can have an improved heimerdinger without having to take the easy route (Again) of CC/massive damage rework buff on every ability? > > PS Stop giving champions CC across all abilities and calling them a rework. its not a rework. its not even effort or creative. I agree with everything you said. I'm OTP Heimer but, since the ULT+Q nerf, I uninstalled League of Legends. I really miss playing League and Heimer, but this is my protest against RIOT for not considering at all Heimerdinger. They prefer to introduce new broken champs instead of balancing an OLD UNCOOL champ. What they don't understand is this: Heimer has a ~50-51% win rate. They think it's a good win rate. But, this would be a good winrate if the play rate was alligned with the average play rate of other champ. Heimer instead is just played by OTPs and has insignificant play rate. RIOT is not facing properly statistics. I agree with you about the lack of CCs compared with other mages and the not scaling passive, but I haven't got one thing. Why you say Heimer E is nerfed? PS: I am G3, 53% wr OTP Heimer. Or better, I was :)
: Can Heimerdinger's passive scale on level ?
That would be a quite good compensation for the cut he received in patch 8.1. Anyway speed buff would made him better toplane I think. A good buff would be just to increase ultQ and ultW damage in teamfights (preferably when allies nearby). Also ultQ slow increase would be a good choice since he really lacks CCs.
: @Riot Meddler and or Riot, let's talk about Heimerdinger.
So sad nobody is taking into account our considerations. I have 52%wr with Donger, Gold 4, but it could be much higher. It is frustrating when people complain when you select Donger in champ selection. I think they are not good in Riot with numbers and statistics...when a champ with 0.5% Pick Rate has 48% WR (but also 52%WR) it means that champ is totally under powered. He MUST have a buff, many ways to do that. Unfortunately we are in a minority and Riot doesn't like minorities because it is in the mood of multinational to maximize incoming. I just feel so unfortunate to like this poor champ....SAD
MerloJohn (EUW)
: I'm OTP Heimer. Lately the donger is struggling a lot versus a large number of match ups: both mages and assassins. He has a play rate of 0.3% and win rate 50%, 51%. This WR is absolutely low considering all people playing him are One trick ponies, these number explain perfectly how much he is underpowered. People MUST learn how to play against. Heisendong, the highest ELO Heimerdinger player admits Heimer is shit. I think he has a unique style in LOL and almost noone can play him. Here there are some points to think about: - While the average midlaner would be able to play a mage, actually he won't be able to successfully play Heimerdinger. This because he is...underpowered. - He has 4 skillshots, just one CC. This unique CC is one of the most hard CC to land in the game, except in 2 cases: versus melee aggression and in chain CC. - At level 6 a full rotation QWER does not allow to kill his full life opponent while almost all mages are able to: Veigar, Velkoz, Lux and many others. - Even if he should be the perfect pusher, his midgame waveclear is poor compared with many champions, also assassins: for examble is almost impossible to outpush an Ekko who has a Q every 5 second. This is incredible... - In mid game, every wave you lose one or two turrets because enemies can hit abilities every 5, 6 second (or less sometimes) and clear both turrets and minions. Turrets have 16 sec cooldown each instead. - At level 6 you are still able to outpush your opponent, even if you don't want, and you are easily gankable and killable. This is his worse contraddiction pushing without escaping. Before the nerf you still had some chance to double kill or kill the 2 engagers, now not anymore. I think Riot nerfed him because many people complained about him and his turrets. His ban rate was almost 0 though. The point is that since he has very low play rate, people don't learn how to play against and they just complain. Riot should work on him and here I have some suggestion to think about: - Missiles W with a slow; - Passive with scaling MS with turrets rank level; - Q turret cast range increased; - Turrets laser triggered with only 1 rocket (to help wave clear); - Q W E cooldowns halved after ultimate R; - Deactivate turrets if need (in order to freeze lane); - R Q (mega turret) damage increased with allied champions around. This would help him for his weak field: teamfights. - R Q slow is nothing: increase this slow. I think that a 50%WR Heimerdinger player deserves a higher win rate.
So I was also comparing STUN duration of different mages. You can also check Heimerdinger stun is one of the shortest stun along mages. Let's see: - Heimerdinger: 1.25 seconds; - Anivia: 1.1 / 1.2 / 1.3 / 1.4 / 1.5 seconds; - Veigar: very easy multiple stun to land, 1.5 / 1.75 / 2 / 2.25 / 2.5 seconds. At max rank it lasts more than 1 second more than Heimer's stun; - Brand: 1.5 second; - Aurelion Sol: 1.1 / 1.2 / 1.3 / 1.4 / 1.5 seconds; - Annie: 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 seconds (passive); - Ekko: 1.75 seconds; - Syndra: 1.5 seconds; - Twisted Fate: 1 / 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 / 2 seconds; - Xerath: 0.5 - 2 (based on distance the orb traveled) In this difference i have't considered all mages with Snare or Root because Stun should be better than Snare/Root. Grenade slow is 30% for Heimer. The difference is that, if you fail your Stun, other mages have also a slow in their kit, Heimer has nothing else. I think that a scaling Stun time for Heimer is legit, maybe starting from 1 or 1.1 second to 1.75 or 2 at max rank. At early game of opponent could be oppressive to be stunned for 1.25 seconds, more it's easy to land a stun early game (because of less Movement Speed an strong turrets zoning during early). At late game it's almost impossible to land a single grenade so stun duration should be increased (more Movement Speed and Mercury's Treads). Hope my explaination was clear, this could be a good point to think about. Regards
: K you guys took this the wrong way. I'm not saying they're overpowered and I'm not saying I can't deal with them. I'm saying they are champions that can't be dealt with in a normal sense (in relation to the rest of the game) and it's basically like you are playing a different game for one match every month or 2. And more of their wins come from the fact that you have a bad matchup rather than being able to outplay. Yes, if you look at my last game you'll see a loss against a Singed. But I was getting camped by a Rengar, I was tower dived about 6 times before 17 minutes. I was dicking on singed getting him to the lowest amount of hp but he has that 600+ movespeed that removes your ability to kill him after. So he becomes a useless one-ability champion but you can't remove him from the game so he's really not useless. His flip is such a good ability and he's such a bad target you should not fight but you also should because he's annoying and it just makes no sense. Heimerdinger is the same except I haven't seen one in 8+ months, luckily I still know he is still the same champion and wasn't changed to fit the skill-based part of League. Both these champions ignore skill and ignore the outplay/counterplay. They don't have the essential thing champions need to fit into this game. They have no skill and they are purely champion-select wins. THIS SHOULD NOT BE A WAY OF WINNING IS THE POINT IM TRYING TO PROVE. THEY NEED TO MAKE THESE CHAMPIONS ACTUALLY FIT INTO THE GAME SO THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY HAVE A NICE BALANCED GAME NOT FORM TO THE META PROBLEM DOTA HAS **(heroes counter each other heavily so skill is removed and matchup-based wins are increased, this is not healthy nor does it feel fair to play against your counter)**. Singed and Heim do exactly what you don't need in a skill based game. It'd be like adding a sentry gun and a bullet deflecting vest to CS:GO. They're both beatable but they don't fit into the game and they aren't based on skill. Literally every other champion in the game has logical steps and movements and have counterplay elements that any champion can use against them. However if you're playing somebody like Akali against Heim, it's basically over and you lost just because of a matchup. It's super easy for a Heim to make Akali lose all gold and never get a kill. She's melee, squishy and has no cc and low sustain...he should just dick on her unless he's absolutely stupid. **My loss has nothing to do with this post, it's the fact that I played against him** Obviously you didn't read the post to see my arguments and use logical reason, you just went the generic "gameplay section response" that you can comment on like half the gameplay posts. I say he is impossible because of literally every other factor except for singed himself which is WHY I have a problem with singed/heim. I explained this like 3 times in the original post. *This is not a problem I thought of recently, every time I play against a Singed or Heim I seriously think they need a rework because they aren't skill-based. The challenger players have a lot of knowledge outside the champ such as minion control, awareness and position to give them success as well as perfect muscle memory and damage memory. They can be successful but only if you just one-trick the fuck out of them for like a year or if another factor comes into play.
Heimerdinger is a NO skill champ?? Try to land a stun and we will talk again...
: @Riot Meddler and or Riot, let's talk about Heimerdinger.
I'm OTP Heimer. Lately the donger is struggling a lot versus a large number of match ups: both mages and assassins. He has a play rate of 0.3% and win rate 50%, 51%. This WR is absolutely low considering all people playing him are One trick ponies, these number explain perfectly how much he is underpowered. People MUST learn how to play against. Heisendong, the highest ELO Heimerdinger player admits Heimer is shit. I think he has a unique style in LOL and almost noone can play him. Here there are some points to think about: - While the average midlaner would be able to play a mage, actually he won't be able to successfully play Heimerdinger. This because he is...underpowered. - He has 4 skillshots, just one CC. This unique CC is one of the most hard CC to land in the game, except in 2 cases: versus melee aggression and in chain CC. - At level 6 a full rotation QWER does not allow to kill his full life opponent while almost all mages are able to: Veigar, Velkoz, Lux and many others. - Even if he should be the perfect pusher, his midgame waveclear is poor compared with many champions, also assassins: for examble is almost impossible to outpush an Ekko who has a Q every 5 second. This is incredible... - In mid game, every wave you lose one or two turrets because enemies can hit abilities every 5, 6 second (or less sometimes) and clear both turrets and minions. Turrets have 16 sec cooldown each instead. - At level 6 you are still able to outpush your opponent, even if you don't want, and you are easily gankable and killable. This is his worse contraddiction pushing without escaping. Before the nerf you still had some chance to double kill or kill the 2 engagers, now not anymore. I think Riot nerfed him because many people complained about him and his turrets. His ban rate was almost 0 though. The point is that since he has very low play rate, people don't learn how to play against and they just complain. Riot should work on him and here I have some suggestion to think about: - Missiles W with a slow; - Passive with scaling MS with turrets rank level; - Q turret cast range increased; - Turrets laser triggered with only 1 rocket (to help wave clear); - Q W E cooldowns halved after ultimate R; - Deactivate turrets if need (in order to freeze lane); - R Q (mega turret) damage increased with allied champions around. This would help him for his weak field: teamfights. - R Q slow is nothing: increase this slow. I think that a 50%WR Heimerdinger player deserves a higher win rate.
Welland (EUNE)
: What happened to heimerdinger?
I'm OTP Heimer. Lately the donger is struggling a lot versus a large number of match ups: both mages and assassins. He has a play rate of 0.3% and win rate 50%, 51%. This WR is absolutely low considering all people playing him are One trick ponies, these number explain perfectly how much he is underpowered. Heisendong, the highest ELO Heimerdinger player admit Heimer is shit. I think he has a unique style in LOL and almost noone can play him. Here there are some points to think about: - While the average midlaner would be able to play a mage, actually he won't be able to successfully play Heimerdinger. This because he is...underpowered. - He has 4 skillshots, just one CC. This unique CC is one of the most hard CC to land in the game, except in 2 cases: versus melee aggression and in chain CC. - At level 6 a full rotation QWER does not allow to kill his full life opponent while almost all mages are able to: Veigar, Velkoz, Lux and many others. - Even if he should be the perfect pusher, his midgame waveclear is poor compared with many champions, also assassins: for examble is almost impossible to outpush an Ekko who has a Q every 5 second. This is incredible... - In mid game, every wave you lose one or two turrets because enemies can hit abilities every 5, 6 second (or less sometimes) and clear both turrets and minions. Turrets have 16 sec cooldown each instead. - At level 6 you are still able to outpush your opponent, even if you don't want, and you are easily gankable and killable. This is his worse contraddiction pushing without escaping. Before the nerf you still had some chance to double kill or kill the 2 engagers, now not anymore. I think Riot nerfed him because many people complained about him and his turrets. His ban rate was almost 0 though. The point is that since he has very low play rate, people don't learn how to play against and they just complain. Riot should work on him and here I have some suggestion to think about: - Missiles W with a slow; - Passive with scaling MS with turrets rank level; - Q turret cast range increased; - Turrets laser triggered with only 1 rocket (to help wave clear); - Q W E cooldowns halved after ultimate R; - Deactivate turrets if need (in order to freeze lane); - R Q (mega turret) damage increased with allied champions around. This would help him for his weak field: teamfights. - R Q slow is nothing: increase this slow. I think that a 50%WR Heimerdinger player deserves a higher win rate.
: I don't think it's a 50% overall damage reduction, just a 50% reduction on the beam attack. Unless I read it wrong. Don't get me wrong, it's a hefty nerf, but I don't know if it's as cataclysmic as it first seems.
The beam does the more damage, normal bullets do little damage and slow.
Jbels (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=MerloJohn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=je5udYOB,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-12-10T14:11:30.749+0000) > > Why don't you ban him then?? He has 0.2% ban rate, 2 game over 1000!! I can understand nerf while champs have at the same time high wr and high ban rate. Anivia has 53 54 % WR since years and she's never nerfed! Ban a champion that barely anyone plays? No thank you, I think I'll reserve my ban for Zoe. The problem with Heimerdinger is that when you DO have to play against him, there isn't much you can really do to him in lane. It's incredibly hard to kill a heimer when he knows what he's doing, and having access to a free zhonyas early makes it all the easier to bait people into dying to your 3 turret plus ult turret cheese.
That's because that one is a persone who played thousand of games with him. Try to play him and see what you can do...
: nah, we at riot need to nerf balanced/underpowered champions because thats how balancing the game works
The is the ban button for champs and people still don't use it against Heimer!
Kyunsei (EUW)
: Heimer is a disgustingly broken champ. He's just not played by enough people for you to realize.
Why don't you ban him then?? He has 0.2% ban rate, 2 game over 1000!! I can understand nerf while champs have at the same time high wr and high ban rate. Anivia has 53 54 % WR since years and she's never nerfed!
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MerloJohn

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