9Lives (NA)
: 25% crit zeal items is good, works better with IE passive. 5k gold IE is not good, costs way too much for 1 item and full build ADC's will feel like 6.5/7 items. Energized stormrazor is interesting; incorporating "Energized" into more ADC items seems like a good idea. No MR on Hexdrinker kinda sucks but a normal shield instead of a magic shield makes it much less niche. Phantom Dancer seems strange. Don't know if current passive is better than that new passive but the bonus AD it gets is nice. Have different starting items for auto-attack focused champions been explored? I feel like a new Doran's item with attack speed or a revamped Cull would be very nice additions. I think changing Cull from this weird niche bonus gold item that ADC's only buy if they die level 1/2 to an actual starting option would offer a lot more variety. Possible options for ADC starting items include: * [NEW] Doran's Bow: 5 AD. 50 HP. 5% attack speed. 3 health-on-hit. - Less AD, HP and sustain (life steal > health-on-hit) than Doran's Blade in exchange for some bonus attack speed. - Gives health over the Cull options * Cull option 1: Scrapping the gold passive. Leaving AD as is (7). Upping health-on-hit from 3 to 5. 6% attack speed. - 1 less AD and no HP compared to Doran's Blade in exchange for more on-hit sustain and more bonus attack speed. - No HP compared to Doran's Bow in exchange for a little more AD, health-on-hit and attack speed - 2 more AD, 2 more health-on-hit and 1% more attack speed compared to the 2nd cull option in exchange for no Energized passive. * Cull option 2: Scrapping the gold passive. Lowering AD from 7 to 5. Leaving health-on-hit as is (3). 6% attack speed. Adding a mini "Energized" passive to it for 25 bonus magic dmg(?). - 3 less AD and no HP compared to Doran's Blade in exchange for more bonus attack speed and a passive that allows windows for a little extra damage. - No HP compared to Doran's Bow in exchange for the "Energized" passive for 25 bonus magic dmg. - 2 less AD, 2 less health-on-hit and 1% less attack speed compared to the 1st Cull option in exchange for an "Energized" passive for 25 bonus magic dmg. Another potential option to help smooth out the power curves of crit ADC's is to add "crit scaling" to their abilities like Xayah has. This would ensure crit ADC's abilities stay relevant while they build crit chance over AD in the mid-game.
Full adc build being 6.5/7 items is not bad as long as adc with 5 items is as good as any other role with 6 items (IE = 2 items now). I don't see how the option to even go further into the lategame as an ADC is bad since you don't lose anything for it.
: The idea of an all in one IE is interesting. I worry about the trough that puts ADCs in a bit; 5k is A LOT of gold and time. But at the same time, it would be nice to have everything you needed in one item. It would make build paths feel less constraining. And no one could say ADCs have the cheapest 1st item powerspike if they're shelling out 5k. I don't know if I'd personally want this to be the new IE but I think its interesting I'd just like to play with it on the PBE for shits and giggles. Yes, please make Zeal items give 25% crit, particularly if IE is just going to continue to double critical strike chance. Please, for the love of god, so I'm not wasting a huge chunk of gold in stats that are already over capped. PD is already pretty defensive. However, with it building out of Hexdrinker, would it give MR instead of just flat damage reduction instead...? And if it did, you would have to definitely change Storm Razor from what it is *now* to something different. There were so many changes to the current Razor to prevent assassins from using it; giving assassins a relatively good option to stat into *some* crit so that they can go back to abusing storm razor just sounds terrifying. I'd rather avoid making Storm Razor energized as well. It already feels like you get shoe horned into RFC/Shiv a lot as a crit builder. :( If SR was also an energized attack, the best option for damage would always just go energizer. Could you expound on what Multi Proc means on Stormrazor??? Like... a shiv multi proc or...? What I always thought would be cool for Stormrazor was if it ramped up the damage of your crits for each consecutive crit you made, starting at like... 100% and working its way up to a max of 250 or something. It would be rewarding for extended fights, which is what ADCs want, and it would make it still a viably good item in the late game. Also, some expansion on what you mean with ER would also be nice; that just seems like the same build it currently has which is problematic since most of the ADCs that used it still also built crit; it still has no crit in that iteration, making it less viable on champs like Xayah(who really had old ER as the core of her build, maybe more than ANY other ADC), Crit MF, Ashe(who you guys have moved away from crit with changes to her passive but I still like crit best on her), Varus, etc. I honestly would just like to see ER reverted or for it to even build out of something like Caufields+Zeal+Mana Crystal; give it less AD in exchange for crit and CDR and some kind of mana regen. Edit: I'm an idiot and just realized that not all of the picture is showing. Yes to the PD change; it sounds amazing. I don't care for either of those iterations of Stormrazor, however. And seeing what the passive of ER is, I'm a little more okay with that idea though I still want some crit in there.
IE won't continue giving double crit chance. Please don't ask for less crit on zeal items
Umarhil (EUW)
: While I like the ideas here, I think the main issue with ADC itemization right now compared to every other role is the complete lack of HP. Resistances are great, but without even a decent option for HP, it makes dealing with some situations absolutely impossible. Also as a side effect, it makes Ignite absolutely ridiculous, since it will deal ~25% of your HP in the mid to late game while reducing your main defense (lifesteal). Something designed kinda like Black Cleaver, but with stats more fit for ADC, that rewards a constant DPS, would be a huge step-up. Frozen Mallet is also an option, but it's too weak because of champions like Gnar abusing it. Even something that can be stacked through farming, would maybe be good for ADCs since it fits this scaling idea, but I'm throwing ideas at the wall right now. Not having access to this stat for most of the Marksman cast makes it nearly impossible to deal with hybrid damage sources from the enemy team, due to the fact that you are limited in terms of slots (which I guess this would help fix, especially the 5k IE), but also because due to the multiplicative nature of ADCs damage, you can simply get something like early Tabi + early Hexdrinker without being as useful as dead. It gets even worse when you are vs champions that requires a QSS, it becomes finding the "less worse" options, and you feel really hopeless. Other roles don't have this issue because they can get HP which will act as a bridge until they get the proper situational resistances items they need. The argument can be made that enchanters are there to provide some form of "pseudo-HP" through shield, but this doesn't fix the problem ADCs are facing right now, which is the accurate feeling that your personal choices and actions have a minimal impact on the outcome of the game. Overall, glad that you're willing to take a good look at that. I have this belief that crit as a mechanic will always be problematic and that on-hit is easier to balance due to the lack of RNG and burst (both issues, one of them even leading to this 8.11 patch), even if Phantom Hit makes it volatile, but I guess at this point removing it would be a lot of work, so I just hope you can manage to fix it. Thanks for the insight.
ADC's shouldn't get too many defensive options tbh. Specially not passive ones such as HP. That kills the whole concept of being a glass cannon. They need more damage, as it was before!
Hotarµ (NA)
: #{{item:3031}} Infinity Edge: I personally like the idea of including Zeal into the build, but I'm not sure how I feel about making it 5k gold in total. I'd like to see something like (Zeal + Pickaxe + Pickaxe) or (Zeal + BF + Pickaxe) to increase viability. This way Zeal is a little more diverse with it's build paths but is still viable as a first item. _________ # {{item:3086}} Zeal Crit Items: I think giving Zeal items a bit more upfront damage would reward DPS based ADCs and bring them up to par with burstier ones. Building a Zeal as a first item versus a BF Sword is a death sentence most of the time, it's just not worth it anymore. Giving a cheaper cost or some more upfront damage (like the proposed 80+ magic damage) would make it more viable in comparison. _________ # {{item:3508}} Essence Reaver: Essence Reaver has always been a subject of debate for the ADC community. I'm not too sure how I feel about the item, I just know it could use some love taps for mana-hungry ADCs and casters. This suggestion is probably best left to people other than myself! {{sticker:sg-lulu}} ____________ # {{item:3155}} Hexdrinker: Adding the Stasis ability from Stopwatch is a poor idea. It's already hard to land kills against AD champions who still gain decent damage from the item, but Stasis has always been the AP champion's niche/way of survival. I don't think spreading it across more items would be healthy for the game, especially for immobile, slow laners whose one engage can decide the rest of their laning phase. Also, Stopwatch on it's own is already infuriating to play against, making it more prevalent seems like a poor idea as well. _____________ # {{item:3046}} Phantom Dancer: I can't see Phantom Dancer granting AD in addition to it's current stats making the item any more desirable for any champions. All I can imagine is that adding more stats (at the cost of the % damage reduction) removes it's utility of a dueling item and would buff champions who already purchase it. _____________ # {{item:3095}} Stormrazor: I'm a little biased since Stormrazor is my most hated item in League. I dislike the free burst damage that synergizes too well with most ADCs, it's very strong with a good build path and I'd like to see it changed to be healthier. I really like the idea of the Multi-Proc Stormrazor, though. It seems like a smart way to play harder lanes, taking good trades with full stacks of Storm's Edge would give weaker ADCs a chance to win fights while not being too overbearing (like it is now) on more commonly picked ADCs. _____________ # {{item:3035}} Last Whisper: With a bunch of the damage floating around + Conqueror, I think Last Whisper is better off untouched for the moment. If it had to be buffed, I'd say 15% armor penetration or 17.5% armor penetration would be alright. _____________ # {{item:3156}} Maw of Malmortius AFAIK Maw is already a very cost efficient item (even more so when it's passive is activated. Adding more flat danage in addition to the item's strong defensive passive seems overkill IMO. When an AD champion has a strong matchup, it's usually _very good_ so I don't think buffing it is a good idea. >Disclaimer: I'm unranked, these are just my opinions based off of norms / watching high ELO gameplay
Infinity being expensive is actually great because it'll allow you to have 2 items in only one item slot (IE + Attackspeed crit item). Let's be honest, nearly everybody who builds IE builds another crit item too.
: Pretty sure that's what Lost Chapter was meant to do and Luden's was meant for this - AP/Mana/CDR in 1 item. You can literally sit on Seeker's Armguard, which is 1 item. You also have far more armor than MR, as that's the convention of the game. You have armor to spare when it comes to Lethality. Same can't be said for MR since Oblivion Orb and Sorc Shoes take out 75% of ur MR (40 MR) from the get go.
You seem to forget armor pen got remade into lethality because of how sheer op it was while magic penetration never had that problem. Don´t even compare the two.
: Like {{item:3191}}? That item alone already gives up to 45 armor (and up to 35 AP). That nearly completely negates all the Lethality items when the wielder is at level 18. Considering how little Edge of Night is picked, then in most games it *is* all the lethality items the enemy is buying.
Lethality's supposed to fall off in lategame, so it's nothing special. Plus you're specifically speaking about lvl 18, when that is late game and people pick that item in early against Zed, talon, etc... It doesn´t make much sense. By that time you'll have Black Cleaver if u're an AD relying on lethality. Hexdrinker is actually better (the current iteration) in the sense that it gives you a nice flat MR ammount from the get go without sacrificing as much as mages have to if they rushed it first item (since mages need a mana item first otherwise they're screwed).
: I think Phreak hit the nail on the head with his latest video about the problem with dps marksmen. Some of their power budget needs to be redistributed from their aa to their abilities, because the current design philosophy (going through an absolutely miserable mid game in order to be a late game 1v9 carry) is inherently flawed. In my opinion most of these item changes aren't really addressing this underlying issue: more crit damage won't do, a more expensive IE will only further delay their key powerspike, PD protecting only against magic damage doesn't make any sense to me and I don't see the point in changing the build paths of Hexdrinker and Maw.
The more expensive IE includes a crit + AS item built in. It will actually be the same if not a cheaper power spike than the old IE + AS crit item while also only occupying 1 item slot which gives you more versatility if you ever reach late. And, tbh, they nerfed adcs when they had that build... I don´t see how it'd be bad for ADCs. If anything, it'll make them OP again.
: Mages are strong at the moment. **RIOT, STOP WITH THE EMPHASIS ON MAGES.** If mages can sit on an Oblivion Orb for the Magic Pen, why can't AD champs have something similar for a DEFENSIVE purpose. Every champion already has 1/2 the base MR as Armor, AP items have more AP per item than AD items, and there's already a severe shortage of MR Items that aren't super situational. Edge of Night already lost its MR component. Mages generally have better wave clear, decent range for laning, and AOE in later fights. Luden gives them a one item power spike and makes it basically needless to worry about mana management, while a ton of AP items are just health stacking ones now, meaning that mages are pretty tanky in terms of health. They might not have as reliable AAs as AD champs do, but that's moot with all of these benefits. Edit: Jesus this post is controversial as shit. 33 Upvote, 33 Downvote.
Better waveclear than who? Because most mid ADs have very good waveclear, some of them with no mana. Yasuo has awesome waveclear, Zed has good waveclear, Talon has awesome waveclear.


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