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XD haha (OCE)
: This champion doesn't do anywhere near as much damage as vi riven or yasuo from his base abilities. His whole kit involves around using it flexibly with the ult he had stolen. For example he has no way of winning against an udyr (equally fed) in a 1v1 because after using all 4 abilities he has to wait for cd but his ult sucks while udyr can constantly switch between various forms. Same with fiora's ult, fiora gets dashes, a slow, and a repell to help her dish out the 4 attacks around her enemies while silas not so much. Ezreal can wittle down his enemies before finishing them off with his ult but sylas actually has to risk it by going into melee range. He doesn't have the abundant cc to follow up the brittle applied by orrn's ult, nor the shield and root to empower daisy, he can't tumble during final hour, he doesn't have a long enough dash for the shuriman shuffle, he can't apply hunts for nidalee's cougar, he doesn't have a wall/ frostbite to follow up with anivias ult etc etc. Each of the champions ults are made uniquely for their kits and are most op only in their own kits, he has to learn to use the part of that ult that helps him the most while making sure that the weaknesses are complemented by the rest of his own kit.
Well, if he uses Q during Final Hour he turns invisible :) The problem is, some of the champions have too strong ulties, which causes a weaker kit (Looking at your Malphite) and Sylas can use every single of them without losing anything. He literally has 7 different abilities in 4 of his basic kit and 140 different ultimates. And also, with the amount of healing, shield, mobility and damage he has, his kit doesn't rely on his ultimate.
Rioter Comments
: [GAMEPLAY] Talon's melee Q is (still) bugged
As a Talon OTP this bug (Not even saying the bug on E) made me waste too many flashes, killed me more than 100 times, costed 3 to 4 games for me. I didnt how this occured untill you posted this, thanks, gonna try to "not press" 2 times in a exciting combat to deal my damage.
Blyted (NA)
: Remove the attack speed immunity from Yi ult already
Yi is shit tier, cant do anything against CCs, if you think amount of knock ups and other hard CCs in the game, we need tenacity on Yi R to make him decent. Well, if you play wrong against a Yi he'll single handedly carry the game. Because you dont know how to play against it, now because he is OP.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
Well, i am a Talon main, i cant catch a Jhin with my level 3 R which gives %70 MS. He is too mobile RN.
Rioter Comments
: Probably cause Zoe being able to disable your tower for free would be fucking dumb.
> [{quoted}](name=Quality Content,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=MLaU4ygb,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-08-03T21:24:49.499+0000) > > Probably cause Zoe being able to disable your tower for free would be fucking dumb. Like Zoe being able to use your spells against you and gain MS and passive extra damage with it which makes your spells hit you harder than it hits her? Nah i dont think so
: Electrocute fundamentally breaks this game.
As a Talon Main, i approve this. I like Phase Rush, but i cant play with it because electrocute is too powerfull
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Dart Later (EUNE)
: Lost promos because enemy team did a remake?!?
I got punished because game said "Sorry We're unable to start your game" lol
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I7A6X2v2 (NA)
: {{item:3111}} with this item zoe does less dmg to u, her cc last less time but most player don't care about protection and they come whine here
Personally i pick cleanse against Zoe and TF, and yet she can kill you without his E or Q. Picking mercs would only give you greater suffering.
: i used to play: morgana (still safe), fiora (reworked entirely), malzahar (changed heavily), lulu (nerfed out to bottom tier to take her out of solo lane), aatrox (reworked entirely), akali (soon to be reworked entirely) and diana (violated her personality in lore and fully changed it, still safe gameplay wise). riot has not been nice to my champion pool :)) i suggest not getting to attached to characters
I used to play (At season 3) Kassadin, Syndra, Fizz And AP Yi. Guess what happened to them lol
: if teemo alone has a 5k lead in gold over you, then he deserves to do that and he'd still have to build burst over dps.
Shahamut (NA)
: My problem with Zoe is her sleepy trouble bubble. It already makes you a sitting duck for her long range nuke... Why does it also have damage amp? My problem with Talon: Assassin- High damage front loaded burst. Also has insane wave clear. Also has unmatched roam potential with a crazy number of routes he can take because of wall hops. What is Talon's trade off, exactly?
Well, same goes for Aurelion Sol. Also, playing against Talon isnt that hard tho, poking mages with CC (Like Ahri, Cassio, Aurelion Sol) can fuck the shit out of talon if they play right. Also; Talon has to go in melee range to finish his job, which makes him super vulnerable. Unlike old talon, he cant dodge skillshots and his Point and click leap makes his moves predictable. If you think about number of CCs in the game, Talon is not even a problem, people like to blind their eyes and farm in lane and when they get fucked by a Talon they cry about champion.
Astorine (OCE)
: Zoe, you mean 'Ap{{champion:91}} '?
There is tons of counterplay against Talon There is only one for zoe; Body block sleeping target to keep them alieve, but you'll die in the return.
Senpanda (NA)
: Man, fizz really needed those buffs. completely unplayable
As a old fizz main, fizz got worse after assassin rework, but its in the worst spot right now. Fun fact; A teemo with 5k gold lead can kill you faster.
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Rioter Comments
: Can yi be taken a look at?
"Hey guys, we're stupid enought to dont CC Yi, so he destroys us, can you plz nerf him?" lmao, %46 Winrate champ needs to be "nerfed"
: Umm no talon is just freelo and braindead right now just like pre nerf xin
Well, actually im playing Talon for 2 years now, its not my fault that he is too strong now.
Antenora (EUW)
: Because Talon is brain dead freelo right now?
Well, actually im playing Talon for 2 years now, its not my fault that he is too strong now.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Midlane Kayra,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EQAIwPlE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-06-04T18:01:52.204+0000) > > "Oh ADCs are overpowered like 7 out of 8 seasons, lets bitch about AD assassins because they can one shot ADCs which is their job" > > ??? What game have you been playing. ADc's got strong in season 3. But from season 4-6 Assassins were pure cancer in the form of {{champion:238}} {{champion:91}} {{champion:107}} {{champion:121}}. Let's just forget about the days when {{champion:238}} built {{item:3153}} and {{item:3074}} and would kill 2 people in a 1v3 and then take 2-3 towers. Even lately {{champion:121}} and {{champion:91}} are making comebacks with {{champion:238}} still being always there. Also you have only played this season. And if its your alt why aren't you posting on your main. You have no record before season 8. And your season 8 main is {{champion:91}} with over 200 games. I think you lost the right to talk because you are automatically biased and are posting on a season 8 only account talking about 7 of the 8 seasons.
Yeah like ADC are not the only class that played in any lane with any role. Lucian-> Played as top and mid for too long. Varus-> Played as mid for like a season. Ezreal-> Played as mid and Jungle. MF-> Played as support. Twitch->Played as jungle. Meanwhile AD assassins; "You're specialized against single-targets, so you have to be alone with your enemy to even gain strenght" Dont tell me ADCs were OK and AD assassins are the real problem for gods sake lol
: I love how Riot is still not addressing AD assassins.
"Oh ADCs are overpowered like 7 out of 8 seasons, lets bitch about AD assassins because they can one shot ADCs which is their job" ???
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: "I can't climb because I get shitty teammates!"
I was saying "If you cant climb, you suck" 'till this season, I dropped from D2 to D3 with my 8 lose streak, Had %74 KP, 7.4 Farm, 2.7 KDA, Most damage in team, 2nd most vision score on team, most damage on objectives in team. Yet i lost because of my inting botlanes. But currently im trying to return D2 with my new winstreak. It is not impossible to climb with bad teammates, but is harder than any season. Some of my loses in that streak; **1-** 11 / 8 / 2 1.63:1 KDA Level14 182 (6.9) CS KP 62% (We had a 3-13-2 Tryndamere) **2-** 16 / 7 / 7 3.29:1 KDA Level17 255 (7.5) CS KP 77% Dealt 30k damage, closest teammate is 19k **3-** 23 / 8 / 9 4.00:1 KDA Level17 196 (5.8) CS KP 84% Dealt 40k damage while our adc dealt 17k
: Wait, who's the nightmare champion?
: Did they release Pyke’s lore?
Nah, but revealed part looks same as Naut's lore.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Risen29,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QQXYsVOl,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-04-28T02:02:07.397+0000) > > I posted a thread just today in gameplay with practice test results that show why ADCs have made assassins obsolete. > Against the practice dummy Jinx will do 1850 DPS per second, or 3700 damage in 2 seconds. Talon takes 2 seconds to do 2700 damage with his Q/W/AA burst combo, but that damage only full registers after an additional 2 seconds for the bleed damage to fully proc. Talon will have nothing left at that point but slow and relatively weak auto attacks, whereas Jinx still gets to keep doing 1850 damage per second until the teamfight is over. If you were to factor in that Talon continues to auto attack the target during the 2 seconds bleed period, he'll do even less damage overall than Jinx. And on the first part of your post, dont forget to mention how much easier it is to play jinx compared to talon. I am not saying talon is some crazy hard champ or anything but he does have various combos he has to pull off and quickly, where as jinx you literally fucking right click.
Dude, dont forget you've to switch your Q if you want to deal AoE damage. Seriously fuck jinx.
: Over 300 book pages, 145 Word pages and more than 290 bugs: Here is the new Mordekaiser buglist.
And i was sitting there and saying "Talon is shit with his 10 bugs." Never going to cry about bugs again.
: Hey Ramero! Talon update designer here. Thanks for taking the time to condense your thoughts. I appreciate that you focused on the higher level gameplay concerns and direction; it makes it easier to understand your thinking and find where we agree or have different takes. That said, now that I clearly understand your reasoning, I think I have some bad news for you -- many of the problems you've identified here are intended strengths/weaknesses of Talon :(. I'll give some background: Damage-dealing champions broadly fall into 1 of 2 camps - burst damage, or sustained damage. Burst damage champions give their opponents very little time to react and can quickly execute them in the right situation, but have very long cooldowns and have to be careful about choosing the perfect time. Sustained damage champions are ready to fight at all times thanks to their shorter cooldowns, but in compensation need to spend more time with their opponents to take them down. It's important to have both of these profiles in the game to appeal to players with varied tastes and to give some texture/variety to the way champions deal their damage. Since it has to happen in such a short window, burst damage tends to be more straight-forward than sustained damage in the moment, with much of the nuance and gameplay contained in the moments that led up to the burst (ie; did the burst champion make good use of their abilities to find a clever path and bypass the victim's allies?). You might see where this is going : Talon was designed for players who prefer the burst damage experience. When tackling the update, we made it a point to preserve this since it was something that many Talon players cared deeply about; to those that we spoke to, burst was a core part of what made Talon Talon. So, we intentionally preserved that part of Talon while trying to add some distinction to the kit through his unparalleled map mobility. That's not to say that a Talon kit with less burst and more repeatable damage would be bad design or less fun by any means, just that it would appeal to a different audience (more of the Yasuo/Yi camp, less the Zed/Talon camp). At the end of the day, a single champion cannot deliver on every gameplay experience, and by keeping each champion's gameplay and thematic identity clear and focused, they all get to be unique and powerful in their own ways. Talon's way is a very bursty one, so I hope it makes sense when I say I don't think we'd consider any changes to Talon that shift him significantly away from being a burst assassin. I'm really glad you've enjoyed Talon so much up until now and really appreciate all the thought and time you put into this. Hope that helps shed some insight on our thought process, and sorry if that was disappointing to hear! Best, -Stashu
Can you reply / give thoughts about my comment under Meddlers?
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Ok, gave that thread a look. Gotta be honest, it's enormous and so would take a huge amount of time to respond to appropriately. I'm certainly down to chat about Talon, but would help a lot if you could summarize say a couple of your key concerns and a couple of concise suggestions. I'll then share some thoughts on those (and/or tag someone else in who's more familiar with Talon details if needs be).
As a High-Elo (Master in TR, Diamond in EUW) Talon OTP i can say few things about Talon; -His Passive is totally bullshit for its concept, why? Talon's passive MUST BE a finishing blow, not "Oh you did your combo, now you've to auto attack to deal %50 of your damage." His passive is his Main damage source, and it makes him useless in teamfights (Imagine making 3 stacks on 3 different enemies but not triggering your passive, and you'll only deal half of your damage without your passive. A succesfull combo without passive proc is useless). You have to hit 3 spells for dealing your damage, great, really thats a great concept and lets enemy to make counter plays. But making him deal %50 oh his damage with his passive is not fair. Even if you make your combo perfect and hit all the blades, you have to Auto attack to deal most of your damage. Just change Passive to %missing health damage from raw damage. That way he will feel like a real assasin, "Yeah, i got 3 stacks, enemy has %70 health, lets AA him and get him to %40 hp." must turn into "Yeah, i got 3 stacks, enemy has %70 health, if i take a risk and AA him i'll get him to %60 hp, i must reduce his hp more to finish him." That way we can change his kit too; -Passive Must be a finishing blow: 75-245 + %200 Total AD --> 80-250 + %50 Total AD + %20 missing health (It could be too much or too less) -Q has a bug in range (You figured it out) and it heals even if it doesnt kill a minion. Ranged Damage 65-165 + %110 Bonus AD --> 60-150 + %100 Bonus AD Close Range damage 97.5-247.5 + %165 Bonus AD --> 100-250 + %150 Total AD -W Cant clear waves If you're a roaming champion, you've to clean waves as fast as you can. But his W leaves caster minions with 10-25 hp. First Damage: 50-110 + %40 Bonus AD ---> 40-100 + %30 Bonus AD Returning Damage: 70-170 + %60 Bonus AD --> 75-175 + %85 Bonus AD -E has tons of bugs. Just Fix them. AND FOR GODS SAKE LET US USE Q AND W MID-AIR LIKE R. -R: Cant make a combo with W , R range is too short. (Main Burst Combo of Talon W + R + Q + AA) R Range 550 --> 650 (same with W) Movement Speed %40-55-70 --> %40-50-60 Damage 90-135-180 + %100 AD --> 100-150-200 + %100 AD Talon becomes unslowable when he is invisible (True sights effects also breaks this buff) Old Talon With 400 AD (120 Base, 280 Bonus) Was dealing 3325 + AA damage with full combo (Against 0 armor w/o armor pen.) His passive was dealing 1045 Damage New Talon with 400 AD Will deal 3097 + %20 Missing health + AA Damage with full combo (Against 0 armor w/o armor pen.) Hiss passive will deal 450 + %20 missing health damage Assassins must make good combos to kill enemies, they must use all of their skills to deal damage, not just one.
: So they nerf mages because they can clear waves easily without the need of mana items? Hmmm... {{champion:245}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:105}} Also, I suppose auto attacking doesn't cost any mana but is a good way to clear wave easily, especially when you get {{item:3087}}
Funny thing, they nerfed Shiv's wave clear potential 2 patches ago. If Fizz, Ekko or Zed wants to clear a wave, they have to use their critical Skills (E for Fizz, W Foz zed, Q for Ekko) and that makes them useless unitill CDs are back. Thing about azir, Do you sacrifice anything while clearing a wave? No. Ryze? No. Orianna? No. TF? No. Taliyah? No. They can clear the wave and poke at the same time but 3 of 4 champions you mentioned cant.
: Hey Big Friendly Bear.. that's what the F stands for right? :P So I'm taking a look at this, I can't promise it'll be fixed for 8.9 but it is on my radar now. I do apologize that this is how it was found, after multiple attempts by you and something we should have caught anyways. So thank you for being on top of this and I will do my best to have this fixed quickly. Thank you again for the post and the videos, really helps us figure things out over here. -Ranger
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Ranger XIV,realm=NA,application-id=LqLKtMpN,discussion-id=zbxGVeEE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-18T20:00:31.970+0000) > > Hey Big Friendly Bear.. that's what the F stands for right? :P > > So I'm taking a look at this, I can't promise it'll be fixed for 8.9 but it is on my radar now. > I do apologize that this is how it was found, after multiple attempts by you and something > we should have caught anyways. So thank you for being on top of this and I will do my best > to have this fixed quickly. > > Thank you again for the post and the videos, really helps us figure things out over here. > > -Ranger What about Talon E Bug which makes you backflip or dont go where you pointed at? Its been a year.
: What's A.Sol's win/playrate?
Ifneth (NA)
: Be careful when choosing the increase. Talon already has over a 52% winrate: giving him another buff could easily make him overpowered. Setting his Q range to the 550 he was promised may not sound like much, but it would be huge because that’s almost every mage’s basic attack range. Right now, he must land his rake or step forward into danger to threaten an all-in during early laning. With a Q range of 550, he could do so by standing on a minion that any mage were about to last-hit with a basic attack. The big MR buff he recently received would only enable this zoning playstyle further. Also, although mages can last-hit with their poke spells, doing so would drain their mana and hinder their ability to pressure Talon with poke or waveclear. Talon would meanwhile be free to poke, last-hit, or push with Rake. A Q range of 525 or less, on the other hand, would give his opponents some breathing room. Does this sound fair?
%52 winrate with %2 play-rate So this means only OTPs play talon, so its not that much.
Viscâ (EUW)
: 52% winrate is not huge if u think only OTP players playing this champion.
: >His [E] has been bugged since his Rework release, it backflips him when used on certain terrains, and this patch specifically the [E] jump is getting more buggy even when using it properly. Yeah, how this sh*t still up since a f**KING entire year ?
Master Yi has a bug on his Q (If you target a champion with Q and it becomes untargetable, you'll stay in your old position, your Q will hit other 4 targets as usual) for like 6 years mate xD Riot doesnt give a shit about bugs. They fixed Hecarims' E bug after 3 years or so.
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Midlane Kayra

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