AD Yuumi (NA)
: Oh boy, It took awhile but today's micropatch is finally out. Today we're focused on cleaning up a number of balance outliers on the far ends of the spectrum (either very weak or very strong vs. other members of their class). In the background we've also been working on a LARGE features that you'll be seeing in 8.17. The MR changes from last micropatch panned out pretty well. Sustained AP damage and tanks are a bit weaker (they were too strong) and marksmen and fighters who don't like getting bursted are stronger (they were a bit too weak). In terms of overall balance, the power spread across different champs and classes is still looking great! All classes are worth taking, and the vast majority of the cast is viable in the jungle with the right partner! We're still worried that AoE mages are slightly too strong and assassins are slightly too weak. May need to look at future class changes to bring them up. Do note that "too weak or too strong" does not mean "useless or the only things worth picking" > # 8/22 - Balance update > > **CHAMPION BUFFS** > > Talon > AD :: 68 + 3.1/lvl >>> 70 + 4/lvl > Armor :: 30 >>> 35 > HP :: 588 >>> 650 > > Evelynn > AD :: 61 >>> 65 > Armor :: 37 >>> 42 > HP/lvl :: 572 + 84/lvl >>> 500 + 95/lvl > > Rek'sai > Armor :: 33 >>> 38 > AS/lv :: 2 >>> 3 > HP :: 570 >>> 600 > > Nidalee > HP :: 545 + 85/lvl >>> 590 + 95/lvl > Armor :: 28 >>> 33 > AD :: 61 >>> 66 > > Azir > MP/5 :: 8 >>> 12 > Mana :: 21/lvl >>> 30/lvl > HP :: 552 + 92/lvl >>> 600 + 100/lvl > > Ryze > HP :: 570 >>> 610 > Armor :: 21.5 >>> 27 > MP/5 :: 6 >>> 9 > > Shen > HP :: 540 + 85/lvl >>> 600 + 95/lvl > > **CHAMPION NERFS** > > Kog'Maw > AD :: 3.1/lvl >>> 2/lvl > HP :: 88/lvl >>> 75/lvl > > Amumu > HP :: 613 + 84/lvl >>> 570 + 80/lvl > Armor :: 3.8/lvl >>> 3.3/lvl > > Karthus > HP :: 87/lvl >>> 75/lvl > Armor :: 3.5/lvl >>> 3/lvl > > Jhin > HP :: 91/lvl >>> 85/lvl > AD :: 4.7/lvl >>> 4/lvl > > Brand > HP :: 88/lvl >>> 80/lvl > > Maokai > HP/lvl :: 95 >>> 90 > Ar/lvl :: 4 >>> 3.5
Nidalee HP :: 545 + 85/lvl >>> 590 + 95/lvl Armor :: 28 >>> 33 AD :: 61 >>> 66 You only patched this for the human form and not the cougar form, so going into cougar form will result into losing HP/AD/AR.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 4
I think you shouldn't nerf Sejuani's base hp and W's base damage, but rather the Icebreaker passive. Nerfing the damage on that would be a lot better than nerfing W's base damage, since a lot of the clear is pretty much from that. A damage+cd nerf on the passive would be sufficient enough I think. If she still stays way too strong then you could look at other abilities. Just stating my opinion here.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: Feb 24
Will you be looking to revert MF's Q nerf after lethality nerfs? Since I really think they're enough to bring MF back into line.
: Proposed changes as the current tentative changes on the PBE.
Ah okay, thanks. Misunderstood.
Fishlord (NA)
: ***
Ehm, I don't think melting a 600 ad malphite is impressive since he's basically glasscannon in that case. Jokes aside, you don't know what overloaded means. An overloaded champion means that they have way too many unnecessary mechanics in their kits. What you mean is that MF is broken. Which I currently agree with. Nice spam though.
: A public game or pick-up-group refers to unorganized play. Saying Miss Fortune is a pubstomper refers to the disparity between her ability to shine in an unorganized environment while simultaneously being mediocre in an organized environment. As your elo rises, people have better macro play and team coordination, with the pro scene standing at the top. Miss Fortune has never been popular in high diamond / master / challenger / pro play. Example of other pub stompers: Shaco, Master Yi, Tryndamere... etc. I'm not saying Miss Fortune isn't too strong, she is, mostly because lethality buffs tadada tadada... I'm saying the changes on the PBE aren't right. Change something else.
Wait are you talking about my proposed changes? Because I didn't really propose any change except if they still think that MF is too broken after the lethality nerfs that they should start looking for something for her passive or Q. If you're talking about Riot's changes. Nvm my reply.
Snowman Arc (EUNE)
: Maybe if they reduced the cone width of the bounce so that you don't get hit by some weird bounces, it should be fine. Also, I think they should change her ulti similiar to how they changed Kennen's; have it have lower damage at first, but ramp up during the duration of the ulti. This way, she won't instamelt the team from the first second, and she has to take a risk to get the whole ulti off. Basically, it balances safety for damage.
About the weird bounces, you might think that because Q bounce prioritizes units with MF's passive already on them. Sometimes it would just go ridicilously 70 degree turn but other than that it should be fine. If they did the kennen ult to mf ult, she would be garbage tier in SoloQ since she would require team effort a lot more. She already needs to decide to be safe to have an ult off.
: yea, the thing they would need to adjust about MF is the ridiculous 12.0 AD scaling on her ult, everything else is pretty much fine (though i still prefer her pre rework).
If they are ever going to nerf the ult, they should actually reduce the 0,75 total AD scaling to 0,70. That would already reduce a lot of damage. (It would be 11,2 AD scaling instead of 12 AD at rank 3).
Ørdeal (NA)
: I've played as mf in lane and without her double up, she legit gets out traded by every single adc. They should nerf it to 25 percent or 30, or make it scale with the amount of levels you put into it. Removing it would make her almost garbage teir
Agreed. Even though you could make it 40% and with the lethality nerfs it would be already softened enough to put her back in line.
: > [{quoted}](name=NeoXist,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Eckr7EI,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2017-02-23T14:38:48.234+0000) > > Would be a solution for the lethality, but that would make current MF pretty garbage as she would rely on crit then and currently crit ADC's aren't doing so great. I don't think those changes will stick. This is the time that they historically put in a lot of random changes to see how they feel out in game. They nerfed black cleaver because of MF. They nerfed other lethality items as well. If MF is still a problem, reduce the base damage of her ultimate and increase the scaling on AD aspect to roughly compensate. Once they hotfix eon duration she won't be a problem anymore I 100% guarantee and she can keep her Q.
You're right. It does make sense that they're testing a lot of random changes right now. I really hope they don't stick through with the Q nerf.
9kPluzZ (NA)
: Why don't they just change her R back to magic damage?
Would be a solution for the lethality, but that would make current MF pretty garbage as she would rely on crit then and currently crit ADC's aren't doing so great.
ZenKe (NA)
: To be clear, her Q doesn't bounce off anything anymore?
It still does, but the extra damage when having killed the first target is removed, which just completely abandons her skill curve on Q.
Not xPeke (EUW)
: I might be slow right now but.. all I see is the extra damage being removed if the Q kills the first target.. that mechanic is still there?
That's the mechanic I'm talking about. The bounce is still there but the mechanic that it does extra damage if it kills the first target is removed.
SirLapse (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=NeoXist,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Eckr7EI,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-23T12:03:12.015+0000) > > You're really over exaggerating. First of all you're describing the stats of an ability **which needs to meet a condition**. Yes the stats on that ability sound ridicilous but you need to kill an unit with your first bounce and THEN there also needs to be a player BEHIND that specific minion in order to have that damage go through. It doesn't happen everytime, only 2 or 3 times per game if the enemy player is smart. > > Compare that to Varus, which just really needs to aim every 10 (or less) seconds in order to do more damage than that (which is also a lethality issue to be fair, but my point is that he requires only aiming instead of some conditions in order to do the damage). > > But even then, Riot could reduce the base damage on the Q (which then also nerfs the empowered Q damage, or just reduce the % bonus damage) instead of straight up removing the mechanic. That's a way better solution, since removing the mechanic just makes the skill curve way worse. > > Calling it an ultimate ability is ridicilous. Saying it with consideration that there are no tank supports currently in the meta is also ridicilous, since you have a Malzahar and a Zyra which can melt every ADC in the game. Besides that, tank supports are seeing rise again after some support mage nerfs. So that gives even more reason to not remove the mechanic. Except we're not balancing for only high elo. Otherwise Vi wouldn't have been nerfed a while ago. I see it pretty commonly where it only takes one MF last hit Q to push force someone on the defensive. Around lv4-5 when you first back into a Serrated Dirk, here's the scenario. You come back into lane, are way more likely to be able to last hit a minion to get that condition fulfilled but now will have a lv2-3 Q. This means that you'll be doing between *286 physical damage* and *346 physical damage* based on level for Double Up, and it will carry 10 lethality and 7% armor pen with DFT mastery. Not even accounting for AD runes. That is ultimate-level damage in a single hit interaction. Tristana's ultimate does 300 magic damage for reference. It is not an over-exaggeration at all, in fact I think you're downplaying the skill. Not even including the fact that you can use this while putting a lane under siege and effectively chunk the opponent out of doing anything. The reason I mention tank supports is because they effectively are out to kill MF, so taking a bit of damage isn't a problem with Relic Shield. As long as Malz and Zyra are meta we won't be seeing any melee tank supports, so that's a hasty assumption. I'm just giving my input quite honestly. MF needs to get toned down right now and the nerf does tone down quite honestly an overpowered mechanic in lane. It doesn't touch her normal damage values that she is balanced around even if it does make her "less satisfying" to some people. Jhin and Varus are long range and tend to not be at risk, but there's more than just them in the ADC roster. They're only lovetapping Lethality also. So MF will not be weak until she is practically forced out of the meta.
Yes you're right, I didn't really think about low elo, there people will pretty much eat every empowered Q. But you're still missing my point. Okay, so Q is really strong, why remove the empowered Q mechanic then? Why not just nerf the base damage on Q so it still rewards you for hitting that low hp minion onto an enemy. This will make both high elo and low elo way situations better. Low elo will get punished less for being... well... "low elo" while high elo you get rewarded for your mastery on the Q bounce (even though it's less). There are multiple ways to fix this, but removing an entire mechanic just doesn't work. The Tristana R is a pretty bad comparisation as both Tristana and MF have really different kits, in which Tristana's ultimate having a huge knockback is a incredibly strong factor in her kit. But I get your point, it still seems ridicilous. All in all I think they could possible nerf the base stats on the Q while rewarding people that master the Q bounce better (by reducing the base stats and increasing the reward on empowered Q). Just my thoughts.
: That's pretty bad, Miss Fortune skill ceiling is already not very high, besides positioning yourself for a good R and managing minion waves for a good Q you aren't doing much, now they are removing half of her skill expression, how are good players supposed to show that they mastered the champion? I'm not upset they are tuning down a champion, I'm upset they are dumbing down an already simple champion by removing interesting mechanics. Are miss fortune players bound to be walking R bots? Not only that, but it addresses the wrong issues for the wrong crowd of players. Miss Fortune is a pub stomper, she does best in low elo and has always been unpopular in high elo. People don't know how to use the enhanced Q bounce in low elo, it takes some skill. This change won't do anything in low elo where she is the strongest while it will hurt her in high elo where she is already not very good or popular. Riot instead should be looking to do the opposite by making changes that will affect her the most in lower elos.
Very well said, couldn't have put it better together myself.
: They have some time before 7.5 releases and will probably look to see how the lethality, black cleaver and lord dominiks nerfs affect her before going through with the nerf
I hope you're right, but usually when they put up a change they go through with it. But yeah I hope for a revert when they realize the lethality nerfs effect MF a lot.
SirLapse (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=NeoXist,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Eckr7EI,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-02-23T10:50:02.051+0000) > > You're right about the broken ultimate damage, that's basically entirely MF. But that does not mean you should remove a fun and rewarding mechanic. If riot wants to reduce her laning phase power, they should nerf her passive or Q damage, but removing the mechanic is just really fucking up the champion. > > About Caitlyn, that's the thing. After lethality nerfs, champions like Caitlyn will see more play again, that's why I think waiting for the lethality nerfs would be a pretty good choice. More counters like Caitlyn will rise again and that will make MF a lot weaker, removing MF's Q mechanic doesn't help anything with that currently. That is not a healthy change to be suggesting as a different response. Nerfing passive makes the interaction between switching targets less satisfactory. That thing has already been nerfed enough and is obviously not responsible for damage creep. Riot is trying to tone down damage creep, while the damage creep on that skill is specifically what you enjoy about it. It's a difficult situation but all things concerned, something has got to give. You are getting an 80 damage + 200% TOTAL AD second bounce at lv1 which is exacerbated the more levels you put in, ending at 320 + 200% TOTAL AD. That's practically an ultimate as a basic skill whenever the interaction occurs, which is broken as hell considering tank supports are not in the current meta.
You're really over exaggerating. First of all you're describing the stats of an ability **which needs to meet a condition**. Yes the stats on that ability sound ridicilous but you need to kill an unit with your first bounce and THEN there also needs to be a player BEHIND that specific minion in order to have that damage go through. It doesn't happen everytime, only 2 or 3 times per game if the enemy player is smart. Compare that to Varus, which just really needs to aim every 10 (or less) seconds in order to do more damage than that (which is also a lethality issue to be fair, but my point is that he requires only aiming instead of some conditions in order to do the damage). But even then, Riot could reduce the base damage on the Q (which then also nerfs the empowered Q damage, or just reduce the % bonus damage) instead of straight up removing the mechanic. That's a way better solution, since removing the mechanic just makes the skill curve way worse. Calling it an ultimate ability is ridicilous. Saying it with consideration that there are no tank supports currently in the meta is also ridicilous, since you have a Malzahar and a Zyra which can melt every ADC in the game. Besides that, tank supports are seeing rise again after some support mage nerfs. So that gives even more reason to not remove the mechanic.
: I'd prefer a nerf to ult damage as well than straight up murdering her laning, assuming the nerfs to ALL HER ITEMS isn't enough to bring her line (I do think she is a bit too strong). Maybe 70% AD per wave instead of 75%, and reduce the AP to 15% ratio to weaken the support side.
I agree with the sentence that she's a bit too strong but I really think that the item nerfs will bring her back into line. If that's not the case then they could indeed nerf the ultimate's damage, anything better than straight up removing a fun and rewarding mechanic. About the support MF though, I really hate it that she's played that way in competitive and I think they can murder it by removing the TL proccing on every instance of damage on her E.
: They should just nerf a bit her ult, the fuck are they doing x(
Even nerfing her ult would be way better than straight up removing a mechanic.
SirLapse (NA)
: The primary issue I keep finding with MF is that broken ultimate damage. If that's meant to be her gimmick then why should she deserve oppressing lane power? There has to be a tradeoff somewhere man. You'll still deal higher damage on the bounce, but after one successful CS you won't be chunking your lane opponent after backing and getting one BF sword or Lethality component. ADCs like Caitlyn who normally counter MF are not popular right now so there's no justification for her to keep that Q power until they are brought back in.
You're right about the broken ultimate damage, that's basically entirely MF. But that does not mean you should remove a fun and rewarding mechanic. If riot wants to reduce her laning phase power, they should nerf her passive or Q damage, but removing the mechanic is just really fucking up the champion. About Caitlyn, that's the thing. After lethality nerfs, champions like Caitlyn will see more play again, that's why I think waiting for the lethality nerfs would be a pretty good choice. More counters like Caitlyn will rise again and that will make MF a lot weaker, removing MF's Q mechanic doesn't help anything with that currently.
: Did you just give yourself a pat on the back there at the end? lol
Huh sorry, what do you mean?
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Potentially too strong, or at least too much power focused specifically in Q2. Unsure if we'll make changes, she's on a list of champs to be assessed during 7.5. development though.
As a MF main, I would suggest nerfing the lethality items first before trying to change MF since she's extremely reliant on lethality to have any source of usefulness early and midgame. If you nerf the items, she might be toned down a bit and I think she'd be fine after that. If not, then changes to MF might be needed so she doesn't abuse lethality as hard.

NeoXist

Level 175 (EUW)
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