: Assassins is the most unhealthy class in League
damage as a whole ACROSS THE BOARD needs to be reduced.
: Can we have a "Disenchant All" and quick Disenchant in the loot system?
yes please.. should have been done a long time ago.
HeeroTX (NA)
: You don't ban ANYONE. Instead, you just have the "toxicity" level defined invisibly under the hood and slowly transition toxic people (based on IP or MAC or whatever) into the toxic queue. You don't EXPLICITLY tell anyone they're being punished, you just let them play with like minded individuals.
no, because Riot's intention is to reform players, and they aren't going to be able to do that with that method. also you'd be grouping people with different "toxicity" levels all in the same bunch. Or even 1-time toxic people who got banned off a single severe outburst or something, etc.
: Yes but his point is that this “free damage” is not affecting Baron. It only affects PVP aspects primarily.
yes but my point is that damage has been increased all across the board for a while now. and that's one example. obviously it doesn't affect baron but it shows Riot's point of view and what they want the game to become. a fiesta with tons of damage. Which as a consequence also leaks down to baron, towers, minions, and all of that.
: For the power creep to be caused by runes / masteries means that you do more damage to baron with new runes / masteries then it was with old runes / materies. Is this really true? Aside from the flat amount of stats you get from choosing which primary / secondary rune tree you go, the things in new masteries that can increase the amount of damage you do to baron is like gathering storm / the legend things in precision / the bone tooth thing in domination / chrysalis. At 20 minutes I guess an ADC benefits a little Legend / gathering storm starting to stack. But for the old masteries you had double edged sword originally giving you a flat 5% dmg increase to baron (which was lowered later admittedly), but I'm not entirely convinced that the new masteries have more damage to baron then the old ones. If the masteries are the true culprit on average you should be doing more damage to baron at 20 minutes, which I think is measured best by using data from the past (does anyone actually have this?) and now. I will agree everyone should feel as if they're taking more damage now then before, but that's because we don't have armor seals / mr glpyhs that were in the past (but they were implemented by changing everyones base stats I think?), and you get more AP for example now from running Sorc + inspiration then from running 3 AP quints. Something else might be responsible for this but I dont know what that maybe, I can really only think of ways to confirm whether your claim is correct or not.
thunderlord is a prime example of free damage being introduced in the game for example. It's like having a an extra spell to throw out and deal damage with.
: I acknowledge this. I even said I don't agree with the "disagree = downvote" mentality, but it's just something we cant change. And yeah, the same circle jerk posts over and over is beginning to loop itself. Now people are circle jerking circle jerks while lacking the self awareness they are part of the problem.
like I said in another comment to you, you CAN change it.. just change the code on the boards that has downvoting affect visibility LOL. How can we not change this?
: What it should be used for and what it is used for are two radically different things. Anyone who sees an upvote downvote will always use it to agree or disagree with the post. To reiterate, this thread really doesn’t do anything, since you can’t change how the majority of the boards behaves.
well they could stop downvotes from limiting and hindering visibility of threads and comments. If people want to use downvotes to show that they disagree with something, then whatever. But having a thread dissapear from the main page because it's downvoted is wrong. Hiding a comment because it's downvoted is wrong. Especially because it's so easy and lazy to just upvote and downvote. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with it, but it's just too easy to downvote a post and not even take part in the discussion and let the thread dissapear.
: I never said anything about it should be hidden or about the impact they have just that polar opposite doing opposite things makes sense maybe remove the hidden mechanic. I never liked it or agreed with it game companies like to stifle conversation for people who cant take it alot.
I know you didn't say it. but what I'm saying is that while your argument makes sense.. in practice it still isn't a fair system because of the negative repercussions that are created by something being downvoted. I agree polar opposite doing opposite things is logical.. but there is no need for a post or a comment to "dissapear" when downvoted. Just show the downvotes and people can see that the majority disagree with it. But bumping popular posts based on upvotes (and the opposite for the downvoted ones) isn't the best thing when you consider this. If upvotes and downvotes want to be an indication on how many people agree with something, then they should leave it at that. An indication. It shouldn't affect the actual visibility though :/. (now, I know you didn't say it, but at this point I still need to point it out for people who pass by and read this).
: I know about the settings dw ! I'm pointing out practices in software dev that are not ok imo and are leads for improvement for league design. Cheers
ohhh yeah that's fair enough,and yeah, I agree with you in any case.
: So upvoting should be to show what you agree with and like but the opposite of upvoting cant show the opposite and show what you disagree with and dislike??????????????????? .... ????????
while on one side what you say makes sense.. you're not considering the fact that downvoting someone highly reduces the chances of being seen. posts will never appear on the main page or anywhere near the top. comments get 'hidden'. That's why downvoting has a bigger impact than upvoting. you disagreeing with something shouldn't mean that you remove said thing from visibility. how can you have a discussion then if you don't get a chance to because you're hidden or not on the page..?
: Voice chat for premades should be opt-in
you can change the settings so that you don't connect to it when joining a premade. the very first time, sure, you're already linked in, but you can chang the setting and then after that you won't connect to it unless you opt in yourself
AmazoX (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Not xPeke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d14u5v38,comment-id=00060002,timestamp=2018-03-17T10:56:15.849+0000) > > Says the guy leaving this comment and the other ones to get easy upvotes by "shitting" on OP. > > The irony lmao. #*"Shitting on OP" & "leaving comments to get up votes" is what you THINK, it is not a fact, mate.*
God, you're so oblivious to how ironic your statements sound. What you're saying about the OP is what you THINK as well, not a fact. Nuff said.
AmazoX (EUW)
: Hatesuo Thread #Method 101 of farming up votes on the Boards.
Says the guy leaving this comment and the other ones to get easy upvotes by "shitting" on OP. The irony lmao.
: ***
then why don't people "grow up and get over yourself" when they get flamed? oh boo hoo you gotta report them and get them banned. Contradicting statement. It's still real life even if it's on the internet and in a game. You don't get to flame, just like you can choose to step up to bullies the same way you would IRL. Nuff said.
: It isn't a bold assumption. This isn't real life. This is the internet, so stop acting like you are some crusader for the good. From reading the chat logs however I am a little surprised you got a chat restriction
just because it's the internet and a game doesn't mean it's real life LOL. What is that logic? If we follow your logic then why ban people? "It's not real life, just get over it and ignore the flame/trolls". I hope you see how stupid that sounds.
: A Friendly Way To Unfriend Friends?
: that is just how out of control runes and damage are right now
> [{quoted}](name=Mortekaiser,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=AA6YxLqe,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-01-17T17:37:56.382+0000) > > that is just how out of control runes and damage are right now agreed
: > [{quoted}](name=Not xPeke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oZsEG5vJ,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-01-16T14:53:51.221+0000) > > except you wouldn't go against challengers because matchmaking is still based on your own MMR and not the Rank you're placed in... no? I THINK its based on mmr but still is it accurate to label plats diamonds masters and challengers under the same banner? there is a big ass skill gap between master and challenger in itself... now we are talking 3 big ass difficult league differences here.
the banner doesn't matter. the MMR is what matters. The rank is just aesthetic. At least that's what they say. I thought the same as you when I was playing on plat 5-Gold1 MMR while climbing through Silver with like 70% winrate. Playing against Golds and Plats while fighting for my Silver 3 promos. It's just how the system works.
: > [{quoted}](name=TiltoverEnforcer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oZsEG5vJ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-01-16T01:56:38.510+0000) > > "But I was Bronze 4 last season, how am I not at LEAST Diamond 5?" > > "I was first place Challenger and only managed to hit Diamond 3... RIP my life" Actually highest rank you can get off placements is plat 1, which is why all plat 1s go back to gold/silver... Because going up against challengers would not be fun to begin with.
except you wouldn't go against challengers because matchmaking is still based on your own MMR and not the Rank you're placed in... no?
noukinn (NA)
: Why the game doesn't need more Buffs right now, Nerfs are what League needs (Polite Version)
Just reducing damage as a whole in the game by 20% would be a start.
: you would have thought ghostcrawler would have learned something after wotlk but I guess not
: I mean, the problem basically sums down to "we don't want assassins to be able to 100-0 an enemy that made literally 0 defensive investment without an outplay", and then you outplay and go "yay, I actually get to do my job", but then the support exists.
the problem is just damage creep as a whole though. the line between dps and burst is getting thinner every patch. there's abundance of damage everywhere.
Thryale (NA)
: right. the problem is vayne and other ADC's like her aren't supposed to come 'online' until at least 30-40 min into the game. but atm they're coming online around the 15 min mark and are obliterating everyone.
That's because the average league match lasts less than 30 minutes across all ELO's and all regions... The whole power curve shifted downards, earlier, etc. That's what we get thanks to Riot's shortening games more and more. I hate it.
: Wait we can still reroll skins? I thought they got rid of that with the champ reroll removal
you can't reroll champ shards anymore. Skin rerolls are fine.
: A summary of all the issues (according to the players) for Riot.
PBnJelly (NA)
: Except that's literally what Preseason is for: big changes that Riot can't make any time during the season. Every preseason is like this, although this season has been crazier than before, it's not like every preseason before this has been tame and followed the same meta as before. The rune changes were definitely good for the long run, people will figure out the meta soon enough, and when the season starts people will take the game more seriously.
every preason yes.. and months after that.. and months after those.. and then for the whole season all the way into the next preseason :)). The beginning of Season 7 felt like it was still preseason for months lmao for example. This 'preseason' excuse is starting to get old. Also, damage is just all over the place and I doubt it will be toned down or fixed at all for when the season starts. They might not even want to lower damage in general anyway. They've been pushing for faster paced game and flashy plays.
: I personally hated the old rune system - it was soooooo expensive and always felt like more work than it was ever worth
they could have just made it cheaper or free like it is now without changing the actual system. the old system being expensive shouldn't have been the reason for the masteries and runes overhaul..
: Because if you buff towers turtling becomes very convenient to dragg out a game. In season 5 towers were tankier, mages didn't get bonus damage on towers and they had more armor. You had no earth dragons or baron minion buff. The result was that people just kept turtling with 2 tanks and an AP waveclearer. So it was really easy to dragg a game to 40 minutes and kind of ''reset'' the early game advantage of the other team. Stuff like demolish was added to help out tanks a bit since they have the least tools to splitpush out of all roles (except support). Basically what Riot wanted to do with the new rune system is give every class of champion (bruiser, tank, adc , apc , support) a way to snowball and carry the game if they're doing well. Which is much more fun and rewarding to play.
that's the point... mages didnt get bonus damage, towers were tankier, they were not affected by ar/mr pen, there was no earth dragons or baron minion buff, etc etc. WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY add ALL of these changes then?? One thing is making towers somewhat easier to take so we can avoid tower turtling for too long. Another thing is doing what Riot did and made towers like paper by adding ALL of the above instead of just some of them... You have a point, and so did Riot, but they clearly overdid it. And the frustrating thing is that it's very clear yet they don't do, or even comment on it, anything about it.
: Actually, not the same. with the recent update they removed runes but they only added base armor, damage or health to champions not MR. This has a huge impact on AP champions and their poke making them a lot stronger. I would also point out that many mid laners would pick armor runes when going against an AD assassin in mid like Zed or Talon but they can't do that anymore. At most they can get +5 armor to start with. There was a huge ability to customize your defensive stats for whatever matchup you were in but now we don't have that option. This makes damage seem a lot higher even if it isn't. That said...there are major balance issues but I don't think it's a simple matter of reducing damage. Each champion needs to be looked at and adjusted for the runes individually.
damage was already too high even before this pre-season change. Damage/power creep is real and it has been going on for a while. it doesn't matter if there are reasons that make it "seem" that damage is alot higher. It's a matter of perspective and relativity. The result is that damage is higher... that's just the bottom line lol. Whether it's because defensive stats customization was reduced, or damage was increased, or defense stats were decreased - it doesn't matter. Fact is proportianally speaking, when you look at health bars and stuff, damage is over the top. Each champion may very well need to be looked at individually, but the game as whole should have 20% damage taken off across the WHOLE board. Just reduce the whole game's damage by 20%. (random example. I obviously don't know the exact number, but you get my point)
: Maybe its not an abundance of damage....maybe its a lack of armor and mr.
the result is the same. (but in any case, there is an abundance of damage. To make things worse, lack of defensive stats too)
Sarutobi (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Not xPeke,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=NU2EQ2F9,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-09T09:22:45.298+0000) > > how long is it up for? According to the FAQs it seems like the store is up till 23:59 PST on Monday, November 27.
> [{quoted}](name=Sarutobi,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=NU2EQ2F9,comment-id=00090000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-09T11:24:44.912+0000) > > According to the FAQs it seems like the store is up till 23:59 PST on Monday, November 27. oki, thanks man
Sarutobi (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ivar Ragnarson,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=NU2EQ2F9,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2017-11-09T09:00:24.437+0000) > > Why would it suck for old players? For those of us that have grinded out buying all champions etc we were getting NOTHING before. IP meant zero. Now at least you can buy random shit because you are bored. Only for a limited time. Remember this Blue Essence store is only available once per year and it's not even for that long. After that it's pointless because most older players own have all the champions and that's really what's only going to be available in the store once this BE shop is gone!
> [{quoted}](name=Sarutobi,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=NU2EQ2F9,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2017-11-09T09:09:49.680+0000) > > Only for a limited time. Remember this Blue Essence store is only available once per year and it's not even for that long. After that it's pointless because most older players own have all the champions and that's really what's only going to be available in the store once this BE shop is gone! how long is it up for?
: They're both.
c'mon, they are masteries. It's so clear, even from the layout lmao. Don't just look at the name 'runes reforged' and think they're actually runes lmao.
Dengeden (EUW)
: Just gonna respond to both your comments here. >The problem is champions start going into god mode with 3 items. No, games start to tilt in one team's favor when that spike is reached, there's a difference. And just wait for when pro season starts again, when Censer isn't being abused. The fact that games end around that time, doesn't mean it's equivalent to the damage dealt in previous 6 item situations. Also, full builds aren't supposed to be the norm they invalidate any sort of gold lead. >It's something that you do notice yourself when playing. My word against yours then, ever since S4, I haven't seen a single situation, either in my own games or spectated ones, where I thought damage was off the charts or anything like that. I've seen people mess up and die over a span of 10 seconds (I've also seen champions with 20 kills melt teams, wow, incredible), sure but calling that damage creep because things like TLD that rack up over time seems ... stupid to me. I also remember that TLD was so useless that Riot overbuffed it into such a must-pick mastery so. And calling it "free" is just... runes are "free" too then and so is any other mastery. So is the 500 starting gold. What the heck does calling it that prove? Furthermore, it's like saying that "Sunfire cape is free DPS damage against champions for tanks". It ignores that the damage is contingent on something that any player worth their salt can play around. Lethality items are back to square one then. Death Dance isn't used. BT isn't used. (By top tier champions.) It's almost like UP items are buffed to just barely make them useable. Try again. No, things don't die faster. Hai can no longer roam top lv 4 to get first blood. I'm surprised you're even bringing up LCS, games last your precious 35+ minutes there. Sure you might see Trist pop off because Censer was still broken during World's but most of the time, if the jungler doesn't outplay the other jungler early, kill pressure is basically 0 and fights are won thanks to winning/ losing the vision war. Things don't get deleted left, right and center, that's the bloody point. Look at the last SKT vs SSG game, despite the fact that she's the biggest offender in terms of DPS, Trist couldn't kill anyone while her Nexus was under fire. Casters are overhyping when things do actually die somehow, that's all. Pros don't like dying ever, they focus on farming and warding, of course they'll complain about anything that has even a remote chance of stopping them. That being said, I, again, have not heard any well-known league players vocalize this opinion outside of the examples I gave. Yes, it's during that guest talk that I realized where this damage creep myth was coming from, considering it's completely unsubstantiated. Like really, you guys are lucky that Censer was as good as it was, otherwise, Riot would have nerfed the strongest crit ADCs, the same way they always nerf the strongest champions. Instead they nerfed Censer because double nerfing things is stupid and now that preseason is in 2 days, Twitch and Trist received no direct nerfs and damage creep has a single, crippled leg to stand on for a change. I don't care about tower nerfs, the fact that you don't need to grind them down or need baron to take 1.5 towers doesn't imply damage creep. I mean aside from that ar and spell pen is rarely bought or bought very late, so that particular tower nerf doesn't mean much.
Then will you agree there is an issue with power creep if not necessarily damage creep? Games didn't used to be heavily decided at 3 items when certain champions reached that stage. Now power is more easily obtainable and also quicker to obtain. And power creep doesn't stray too far from damage creep. They almost go hand in hand. 3 item power spike wasn't as effective (on the champions it now is) a while back precisely because the damage wouldn't make as much of an impact. For example, don't you remember how Vayne really did have to farm up and get items to 3 hit stuff? For the past 2 seasons or however long she would build IE + shiv and start 3 shotting everyone (yes it's an exaggeration but you get what I mean?). Doesn't this also show damage creep? Full builds do invalidate gold leads, yes, and that's my point. Because of my belief in the supposed increase in damage across the boards, you reach fundamental power spikes sooner, allowing players to steamroll and destroy everything way sooner. Which means that you very rarely even have the chance to reach full build.. And yes this does impact the champions who need more time to scale. This results in late game champions effectively reaching their power spike sooner because of the things I've discussed, which means games also tend to be shorter because everything happens sooner, which also means that game phases have been condensed. Early and midgame technically last for less time. Or these late game champions don't have a chance to reach their power spike because the game is either already over or already decided. Games in Pro Play last 35+ minutes because they play safe most of the time and farm. Bringing up LCS isn't relevant in this case. I brought up LCS only because you can observe things while watching, like numbers, damage, tankiness. Game length and playstyle are something that we can't talk about when talking about a Pro Play game in general though because Pro Play is a completely different game than the one we all play. It's honestly like playing a different game lol. One thing I really don't get is how you don't understand why I say TLD is "free" damage that was introduced in the game. What's so complicated about it? Before 3 spells or AA's dealt 300 damage (random number as an example), yes? Now they they deal 300 damage + TLD's damage, yes? How is that not extra damage added into the game out of nowhere in the form of TLD? What I'm saying is that a champions damage was contingent on his actual kit and numbers. Now it's that PLUS TLD's damage. The argument about runes and 500g doesn't make sense.. you're taking it too literally.. i already explained it's "free" because it's damage that wasn't initially available until the keystones were introduced... Is this really that complicated to understand lol? Things DO die faster actually. I guess you forgot the times when tanks were literally unkillable but also dealt less damage themselves? Now they deal more damage but are also much easier to kill once enemies build penetration items (some could argue too easy). Now they are more of a threat to squishys because of their base damages, scaling, and defensive items with offensive properties. Death dance and stuff were just examples.. You're the one that claimed there were only nerfs. There weren't clearly. I don't need to remind us all about crit items right? Lethality items are not back to square one. They're in between the initial buff and the latest nerfs powerwise. I agree with you that double nerfing is stupid and the change they introduced + preseason coming up was actually a good idea. Towers are objectively easier to take now though. Damage and tower weakness both play a part in it.. How can they not lol? If I missed something please excuse me, feel free to remind me, had to type quickly cus i'm in a rush. EDIT: also we might be running out of replies, we'll stop being notified soon i think.
Dengeden (EUW)
: >Early games champions WOULD be outshined by late game champions who could take the game over if given enough time to get their items. Unless you're talking about ridiculously broken examples like Jax or Trist, nope. When early game champions won the early game they prevented late game, how long the game lasted was, barring 6 items, irrelevant. >Now late game starts wayy earlier. and games end way sooner.. tell me again how game length and current state of the game doesn't affect this diversity? For one, calling 3 items late game just because champions can force you to do something other than farm, farm, farm by then is hyperbolic. Secondly, as I've said, it affects diversity positively. I also said why. Crit adcs are the first somewhat applicable examples of this so-called damage creep that I've seen. But only if they snowball, which they do quite well, sure but that's still dependent on an incompetent enemy most of the time. That still doesn't prove that damage has increased in every possible way though. I don't even need to change my position. Damage during the midgame (3 items, I mean...) has increased to avoid necessary farm-trading. Funny I've never heard pros or streamers talk about damage creep. I know that Scarra keeps the circlejerk alive to get subs, I also know that junglers and toplaners will always complain about each other or botlane regardless of the meta, I know that streamers will call new/buffed champions OP to get views but that's about it.
Wait how is it irrelevant? You can lose early game and just turtle, farm up, and outshine the enemy team if you have late game carries and the enemy champs all fall off lol. That's just how it is. The problem is champions start going into god mode with 3 items. It's hilarious watching LCS and hearing casters calling out a IE + 2 zeal items ADC = gg wp he got the 3 items its over. lmao. And while it's just a caster, it's not proof of anything, it's something that you do notice yourself when playing. Well it is late game when games last on average LESS than 30 minutes in ALL elos... So when you're on 3-4 items that's actually around the time most games end LOL. So we're either never reaching true late game, or the power has just shifted down to that. Eithe way my point stands, no? True, I agree, it is most noticeable only when they snowball. But the thing is that it happens - alot. And yes, I understand what you're saying that it might be to avoid farm trading, but the issue with that is that games are getting too short and not even allowing for full builds. Obviously it happens, but the average match length is way down and no where near that. They have. Also, I think QTPie, Scarra and a guest once talked about it on their show thingy. Unlike the rioter thing I was saying, I cannot fully confirm this as I could be making it up. It just rings a bell though lmao... Being honest. It is true what you say about streamers and stuff, but it doesn't mean that everything they say is to get views or get subs, etc :p.
Dengeden (EUW)
: Ah thanks, "gameplay updates" that helps me exactly never and nowhere in finding this thing you're talking about. You're ignoring my paragraphs, I wonder if you're the one laughing. I mean do you even listen to yourself? You're calling damage that's contingent on three separate damage sources "free". Competent players aren't going to stand still while they're taking damage. Comparing TLD to what LB used to do is patently ridiculous. Speaking of LB though, you're right. The line between what bursts and what doesn't has gotten thinner ... because burst champions have gotten repeatedly nerfed and any rework has given them delays or poorer range. I will admit that some things in the game actually do damage now, particularly during the early and midgame. You can't just ignore a champion because they don't have 3 items yet, which might indeed lead to shorter games, yes. But quite frankly, I have no idea what's so great about the alternative. Ooooh, allow me to strategically ignore this champion. Why would I deny that damage has increased as a whole? The fact that strong champions and items are nerfed every patch has something to do with that. But it's irrelevant to the discussion, don't worry about it. I know that looking at actual gameplay instead of taking some Rioter who was probably trying to placate this rabid forum out of context is me being in denial.
Where am I ignoring your paragraphs? And yes, I am calling it free because if 3 spells did 300 damage, now they do 300 damage + TLD's damage. TLD = free upfront damage that they didn't have in the past. Wow, I'm actually amazed I had to explain this to you... Yes, if you want to be technical you could argue that "free" was the wrong word for it, but seriously anyone willing enough to apply their brain to it should have understood what I meant easily... TLD is just one example anyway. It shows how damage was added to the game for no reason. Why should champions be given an extra tool to deal more damage on top of their own kit? They say TLD is the 'burst' keystone, except you could technically take it on any champion and receive.. you guessed it, free burst/damage that you SHOULDN'T have based on your kit and type of champion. I'm assuming you remember how 10 out of 10 players were taking that keystone when it first was released right? Yes it was nerfed, and others buffed, which opened up other keystones and diversity, but the principle I'm explaining remains the same. Like I said, I don't have the patience or the need to go dig up where I read it just so you can believe me (no offence). It could have been gameplay updates, or in patch notes. I don't remembe. I ain't going to go through loads of shit just to "win" an argument lmao. At the end of the day I'm just happy just knowing that I'm correct (when I know I am for a fact). No offence dude but I don't see the absolute need to prove this to you. You can believe whatever you want. I thought I'd still let you know - up to you if you want to take my word or not. It's just funny though because like I already said (I know I repeat myself) Pro Players, and hell, even casters say how damage is off the charts and how everyone gets deleted left right and centre. It's just funny how there is statistical evidence how games are getting shorter and shorter, and damage does play a part in that. And anyway, what items are nerfed every patch? We've already gone over Crit items and they've been buffed to a ridiculous state (buffed as in, cost reduction as well - not simply stat buffs). Lethality items were nerfed AFTER being initially buffed and were broken or flat out abused by certain champions. Death dance got buffed. BT's damage got buffed. Etc, etc. You can't be looking at actual gameplay because even just watching LCS now, compared to back then, you will realise how things die alot faster now - damage creep. If it's the result of defenses being nerfed, or damage alone being increased, it doesn't matter. The bottom line is damage has an increased effect. Especially like you've agreed yourself, in the early and mid game. Are you the sort of person that looks at "gameplay" and patch notes and notices how towers have been "buffed" when they had their hp and armor increased right? Except they are now susceptible to ar/mr penetration, take extra AP damage from AP champs, and champions have been buffed/updated to be better tower takers - making towers weaker overall. "but the numbers say they're buffed". Look at the bigger picture man.
AraMoOse (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Not xPeke,realm=EUW,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=30F7QzAo,comment-id=000400000000000000030000,timestamp=2017-11-05T20:56:20.528+0000) > > "harass"... lol. > > c'mon man, an adult would be able to look past that "harassment". > It's nothing serious or of impactful effect either.. I can look past it, that does not mean I want to be subjected to it. Furthermore, if it's not impactful, stop doing it.
If you can look past it you should do precisely that. You shouldn't care if you are subjected to it or not. I just brush off things like these and don't even report them.
: > [{quoted}](name=AfonsoLokin,realm=EUW,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=30F7QzAo,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-11-05T14:46:34.620+0000) > > riot judges players by theirselves, not their teams. > You were still Toxic. You just didnt call them idiots/Said they were bad/whatever. > You had a negative impact on the game throught chat? Well, that leads to a punishment. Constantly keeping arguments and throwing sarcastic "GG's" count. > Im sorry, we've all been there. Dont waste your time. Your ticket will be denied Dont know why you are downvoted. This guy was on a chat ban just recently and continued his behavior.
He got downvoted because he used the word "TOXIC" (at least by me). People need to stop throwing around terms like 'toxic' and 'flame' around so easily. It only makes them lose their true value and meaning. You want to argue that it had a negative impact on the game? Fine, be my guest. But the word "toxic" has a stronger connotation to it. You cannot brand these chat logs "toxic". And if you want to get technical, as we can already tell from the chat logs, the atmosphere was already negative to begin with ;). Realistcally speaking these chat logs did not create a negative environment, but are a product of one :).
AraMoOse (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Tiltmaster Zoe,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=30F7QzAo,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-05T16:18:51.079+0000) > > If that's the bar for toxicity now, we should probably go ahead and label this game 'for ages 13 and under only' When I was 13, I didn't enjoy being harassed in the way OP was harassing people, this is true. I am now 34... Still would rather no be harassed... If this is how you think adults should speak to each other, then I don't know what to say to you.
"harass"... lol. c'mon man, an adult would be able to look past that "harassment". It's nothing serious or of impactful effect either..
: Yeah I don't like the tower durability for the most part, I like contesting Herald but I think with all the buffs to champs like Vayne/Cait to make them siegers, the cheaper items, more gold ect towers are just too easy to pop. Given your base is the main objective tower durability is pretty tied to game length.
yes, fair point. I'd say a change to respawn timers might also help increase match length slightly? Allowing a dead player to respawn slightly faster and get back to defend. Unless I'm mistaken I seem to recall the last time they were changed they were increased.
: Most games last more than 30 mins ( don't fucking tell me ''hurr durr it's over at 10 mins''). And no fucking thx , I can live without {{champion:34}} {{champion:112}} clearing waves for 50 minutes.
what? The average time of a match across all regions and all ELO's is LESS than 30 minutes. Don't make up claims, thank you. It ranges from 29 minutes in Bronze to 24 minutes in Masters tier, and back up to 27 minutes average in Challenger.
: Do you honestly think the people who want 20 minute games and the people who want 45 minute games are the same people??? The community isn't a hivemind, there just happens to be a circlejerk about whatever is currently pissing people off. LoL's sweetspot has always been around 30-35 mins since early, mid and lategame champs all get a chance to have a powerspike. Leaning it further in either directions biases early or late more.
Except the average time for a match across all elo's and across all regions is LESS than 30 minutes. Ranging from 29 in Bronze, reducing more and more until it reaches an average of 24 minutes in Master Tier, and then goes back up to 27 in Challenger. The matches are way too short now.
: It's pretty ironic honestly lol.. Considering years ago people made the same posts of the OPPOSITE thing that got 100 of upvotes. "MAKE GAMES SHORTER.. 45 minutes for a game is really pushing most of our time schedules." -Riot : We are currently working on that. As Riot experimented the ADC 2k17 meme came.. Instead of small simple buffs they made the most nastiest ADC's deal crazy amounts of damage which made towers useless. (People wanted ADC's buffed and now regret the fuck out of it.) It's the items as well though. Riot reduced towers and made them weaker. Riot made Rift Herald and people of the community said "It's a good add Riot keep it! It gives top lane something to look forward too." Making the game EVEN more snowbally. (Tryn can solo it easy by the way, thanks to his spin.) Majority of the communities fault.. _______________________________________________________ Now people are spam raging Riot over their own stupid mistakes & complaints that has gotten 100 of upvotes in the past, which gave Riot the idea it was a good add anyways. Ardent Censor though.. The community has complained FOREVER about that bullshit, that is completely Riots fault. :)
There's 45 minute games, who I can even objectively see why they may be too long on average... And then there's an average of LESS than 30 minutes matches across ALL regions and ALL Elo's. Maybe their changes and "work" to make games shorter CLEARLY went too far. What the OP said regarding the distinct phases is true. It's all been crammed up together now. I understand why people don't want games to be too long, but these are too short - no doubt on this.
Dengeden (EUW)
: Again, you're at the very least wrong about long games "promoting diversity", that's not how it worked. Either early game champions reliably got a lead and very slowly bled you out, or those early game champions bled out by virtue of existing. Now that every champion's strength has been pronounced from the get-go via keystones, it has become a lot more probable for champions to expand and explore their differences. It's basically impossible for me to find Riot's post about damage creep for obvious reasons but I suppose that's irrelevant to your discussion too and I can't ask you to show it to me? I mean, I will readily agree that damage during the early game has equalized somewhat (you won't see midlane lv 2 assassinations like you used to but basically every champion can set up ganks by that time now). I will also admit that the ADC or any other champion doesn't need to farm in sidelanes for 20+ minutes to be relevant. Oh the horror. Splitpushing with squishies was so healthy and a hallmark of the game, especially in soloQ! I will not agree that the maximum damage output has increased. Because you couldn't point me to an instance where it has, since it's irrelevant to your discussion somehow. People pushing for the win that quickly is still the exception, for what it's worth. Heck, usually it's the inhib (tower) that falls. Which will usually result in a win, yes but I can just as easily turn your CoD argument against you. You want a game where people can fight all the time with minimal consequence.
It was how it worked.. there were champions that had to scale up, either because itemization was different or because of their stats/kit or whatever. Early games champions WOULD be outshined by late game champions who could take the game over if given enough time to get their items. Now late game starts wayy earlier. and games end way sooner.. tell me again how game length and current state of the game doesn't affect this diversity? Yes, I'm going to talk about ADCs again because the buffs to the crit items are a major reason why currently crit ADCs spike wayyy too soon, reaching their late game.. too early than they should and than what we were used to. This is in practice damage creep. The damage they deal at a certain minute mark is higher than it was in the past. It's rather straight forward isn't it? I don't have time to look for the post, I honestly don't even know if I'd be able to find it even if I tried, it's fine if you don't believe me. I know for a fact that I've seen it though. You don't have to take my word for it, I understand. However I know this to be true and I'm happy with that... Heck, even pro players and famous streamers have talked about the subject alot and agree that it's a thing. Damage creep isn't only maximum damage output increase though.. it's also an overall increase in damage in general. Meaning that everyone has seen an increase in damage as whole at some point in the stages of a game.
Dengeden (EUW)
: You said "games don't last as long" in about 3 different ways and since this forum hates ADCs and loves mages unconditionally, I figured you were talking about ADCs, which, as it turns out, you were, so lol. >There used to be a bigger difference between burst champions and dpsers. Muh "Burst per second". And you're really telling me you're not talking about ADCs? >(like everysingle crit item that has been buffed with time and has had its price reduced) Strange how they were all nerfed too and were only buffed because they were irrelevant in the face of bruiser and lethality ADCs. I mean you brought up TLD too, which has become the most underused keystone in the game but you know, *I'm the one who's ignoring reality*. >I won't even pretend to care to show you a single game from S4 or before for it to "prove you said the truth". See? Damage creep is irrefutable, you refuse to look at patch notes, you refuse to look at games. Like seriously, "the game we are talking about is irrelevant to your discussion."
I'm not just talking about ADCs, but they are a fair example to make. And keep in mind I have no reason to "hate" on ADCs.. look up my match history I play ADC ALOT. Just statings facts. It doesn't matter if TLD is currently underused (by the way, it's actually not underused at all, there's just diversity). Any assassin or burst champion uses TLD exclusively basically. It's basically a 5th spell in the early stages of the game that was not available before its introduction = free extra damage on burst. I mean, I don't know when you started playing but I distinctly remember there were specific champions that were super good at bursting and could 100-0 in a blink. Now it seems that you get blown up by anything that touches. But yes, damage creep isn't real. By the way, nice on ignoring the fact that Riot themselves have admitted damage creep is a thing!!!!! In one of their gameplay updates and things on these very boards!!! Like, holy moly, why do you even try to deny damage creep?? Are you just trolling me right now, making me type big paragraphs and secretly laugh at me trying? If not, I really cannot understand why you are in denial. No reason whatsoever.
Dengeden (EUW)
: If the point is diversity, it failed, diversity is just as good or better than ever. Sorry but when 5 people decide to take a fight and end up losing it, why exactly should the game drag on? The better team has been decided and in fact, had been decided, it's not like, with perfect play, the team that lost would have won that game. Your exaggerated complaints about lv 6 powerspikes and 3 item powerspikes that pretend that they weren't a thing in previous seasons are good for farming upvotes but prove nothing. Actual gameplay doesn't back it up. Yes I will. I will keep denying damage creep because it's objectively false. It is falsified by looking at single game of League of Legends. The fact that it's so good at shifting goal posts that it's basically impossible to refute doesn't change that. A champion builds off-tank? *Damage creep, he doesn't need to go full damage. The fact that this was done in past seasons is something I'm just gonna ignore.* A champion builds full damage? *Damage creep. The fact that this was done in past seasons too is erm, remove ADC 2k17* Tanks get new or updated items or masteries to counter damage (and like 2 bruisers use them for a patch or two??)? *Damage creep, these buffs prove that there's too much damage.* I can't just walk away /dancing when an ADC attacks me??????????? *DAMAGE CREEP* Nerfs outweigh buffs in most, if not every patch? *Damage creep, duh, you're not looking at things objectively.*
Except Riot themselves have said there has objectively been damage creep in recent years... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Care to tell me again it's false? And tell me, how is the diversity we have right now better than in the past? When games lasted on average a good 15 minutes longer - MINIMUM - than they do now. That meant that the diversity found between certain classes, specific champions, and stages in the game were actually more pronounced since we had more time to expand and explore these differences. So how could it be better now when everything is getting more and more condensed as matches are getting shorter? And yes, when 5 people decide to take a fight and win that fight, they shouldn't have an easy time taking down 4 towers, inhib, and nexus in one push before 30 minutes lmao. I repeat: this game is not a shooter game. It shouldn't be fast paced. It wasn't in the past, and THAT game is what made League as famous as it is now. Games only started getting shorter in the past 2 years, when League was already the most played game in the whole world. Now it's turning into a different game. Catering for Pro Play and for kids with short attention span that need flashy plays and short games to play a larger number of games.
Dengeden (EUW)
: Show me a single game from S4 or before, idc, where what I said wasn't true. Otherwise, your obstinacy, or at least how narrow minded you are, is showing full force in that comment.
dude you're arguing against a fact... Damage creep is a thing, even admitted by Riot. Talking about obstinancy LMAO. You're denying facts.. Damage has been increasing across the board for a while now... The introduction of keystones like Thunderlords even made it more evident. Items costs have been reduced (like everysingle crit item that has been buffed with time and has had its price reduced). It all adds up, it means damage is more easily accessible at an earlier point in the game, giving the feeling of increased damage because you weren't able to have that amount of damage at that point in the game in the past, also making games faster and more one sided. When did even you start playing? There used to be a bigger difference between burst champions and dpsers. Champions that could one shot were "special". Now manyyy champions can 100-0 in an instant. "A fed ADC would always rightclick you to death" means NOTHING in regards to what I'm talking about. THAT is why I called your comment ignorant and believe you to be narrow minded. You're funny using my words agains me. Except I actually had a reason to say that to you, you do not. I took the time to enter the discussion and explain my point of view, you chose to reply with something that makes no sense nor holds any importance or disproves what I said. You literally didn't even answer the points I raised, and said something completely unrelated and dumb. I won't even pretend to care to show you a single game from S4 or before for it to "prove you said the truth". It's irrelevant to my discussion, and your statement doesn't deny the existance of damage creep. Nice try though. Why are you even talking about ADCs rightclicking out of everything I said in my comment? Makes no sense smh.
Dengeden (EUW)
: If you look at it objectively, yes it is. What's the point of having to win multiple teamfights and/or multiple Barons because your champion needs multiple items to close out the game?
Because this isn't Call of Duty or another fast paced game... It wasn't designed to be a fast paced game that ends after one teamfight won/lost. The point of that is to have diversity between champions.. some champions are early game, some are late game.. now this distinction is getting thinner and thinner. Considering mid game is by the time you hit level 6 now lmao. "Late" game is like at 2-3 items now.. Just like with dps and burst, the line is almost non existant nowadays. Thanks damage creep. Keep denying damage creep is a thing LUL. My friend, it is you who isn't looking at it objectively. You believe this change is good so far and thus you are unable to see why the change isn't just. Changes shouldn't warp and completely change the whole ideal behind the game.
Dengeden (EUW)
: Stop pretending damage creep is a thing. A fed ADC would always rightclick you to death, that hasn't changed.
Your ignorance, or at least how narrow minded you are, is showing in full force with that comment. Either that or you're a new player that knows nothing of how the game actually was in the past.
Eedat (NA)
: > Yeah, except towers were much sturdier back then. LOL ***HELL NO***. Towers legit had 1300 HP with 60 armor. Now they have 3500 HP with 40 armor. No clue what you're talking about. Towers are WAAAAAYYYYYYYY sturdier now than they were back then. 'Member berries strikes again. Oh, I 'memeber!
You're completely right, however damage has increased alot with time ^^. That's also a fair point to keep in mind when pointing out these numbers and stats. So the real debate is regarding if damage creep and stuff that helps take towers faster counteracts or even overtook the defensive stats towers gained.
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Not xPeke

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