: OMG I just realized something about conqueror
Just got the patch on EUW. It fucked the launcher I can’t start a game. Enjoy the patch :)
: The issue is, as much as people hate them, AP supports aren't counterproductive to winning when used _correctly_, and as such shouldn't be punished. If you do punish them for kills, then the legitimate team players who're making up for a lack of AP or want to play a poke lane are going to get shunted if they accidentally last-hit (or, alternatively try to carry when they realise it's necessary they do). If you reward them for kills- they'll take the kills indiscriminately (and try to carry- afterall they probably think they're better than their ADC). So the best option is to do neither. And I don't think a system could be created that could differentiate between these two: We get ganked bot, I run in and CC, my ADC lives but I die / We get ganked bot, I run in and CC, my ADC and I int for LP In both cases I perform the same actions, the same stats go out... how could a system know to say +1LP or -1LP? I just can't see a way around the problem.
> [{quoted}](name=NekoniClaws,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=BB7NOOiA,comment-id=000a00010001,timestamp=2018-03-20T14:53:09.064+0000) > > The issue is, as much as people hate them, AP supports aren't counterproductive to winning when used _correctly_, and as such shouldn't be punished. > > If you do punish them for kills, then the legitimate team players who're making up for a lack of AP or want to play a poke lane are going to get shunted if they accidentally last-hit (or, alternatively try to carry when they realise it's necessary they do). > > If you reward them for kills- they'll take the kills indiscriminately (and try to carry- afterall they probably think they're better than their ADC). So the best option is to do neither. > > And I don't think a system could be created that could differentiate between these two: > We get ganked bot, I run in and CC, my ADC lives but I die / We get ganked bot, I run in and CC, my ADC and I int for LP > In both cases I perform the same actions, the same stats go out... how could a system know to say +1LP or -1LP? I just can't see a way around the problem. Read the whole topic there are interesting points.
130x (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=OzX,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=BB7NOOiA,comment-id=000b0001,timestamp=2018-03-20T13:53:11.749+0000) > > No the correct comparison would be : > "You take 1 test per class and your grade is the avg of the class everytime, after several tests you get your own personal grade which is the average of the averages". > Obviously since you got 100 in every test, the class you were in would score slightly higher than the classes you were not in. > The only difference is that ratings will be between something like 40 and 60 instead of 0 and 100 but it won't affect the final ranking if enough tests are taken. Ok, following that logic. There are 5 people in this class. In each class. In your class you get 100 every time and your other 4 get 70's. While in the class next door 3 people get 100's and only 2 get 70's. It is luck as to which class you are put in. So, no matter how many 100's you continue to earn your class will never beat the class next door. Welcome to elo hell, where your skill means nothing and currently never will. You will always be seen as a 76 and not an 88. And you are not an 88 because you need to "git gud" despite maxing out at 100 performance every game at this level.
> [{quoted}](name=130x,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=BB7NOOiA,comment-id=000b00010000,timestamp=2018-03-20T15:17:37.043+0000) > > Ok, following that logic. There are 5 people in this class. In each class. In your class you get 100 every time and your other 4 get 70's. While in the class next door 3 people get 100's and only 2 get 70's. It is luck as to which class you are put in. So, no matter how many 100's you continue to earn your class will never beat the class next door. Welcome to elo hell, where your skill means nothing and currently never will. You will always be seen as a 76 and not an 88. And you are not an 88 because you need to "git gud" despite maxing out at 100 performance every game at this level. I obviously met classes are groups of random people
Kythers (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=OzX,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=BB7NOOiA,comment-id=000a0001,timestamp=2018-03-20T13:47:47.154+0000) > > Unless the system is not totally totally dumb and actually punishes you instead of rewarding you for building AP supports and stealing kills because he recognizes this pattern as counterproductive towards winning. > Likewise if the system is able to assess that giving your life in order to save your ally contributed to the win more than letting him die you would get more points. > It all comes down to how well the system can analyze the actions. I challenge you (and bestevena) to come up with such a system guarantee me or someone else would find a way to break or exploit it
> [{quoted}](name=Kythers,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=BB7NOOiA,comment-id=000a00010000,timestamp=2018-03-20T13:51:42.217+0000) > > I challenge you (and bestevena) to come up with such a system > > guarantee me or someone else would find a way to break or exploit it This is way beyond my skill level and we don't even have the data. That doesn't mean it's not possible. But : guarantee someone would find a way to make it impossible to exploit.
130x (NA)
: I disagree completely. What if other areas of life treated you that way. So in class the only thing that matters is the avg grade. You get 100s and study hard, but your classmates need LOTS OF help. So the class avg is a 69 and that is what you get also. You fail the class. Of course you deserved it because you are all in the same class, on the same team. You don't get a scholarship. You work for minimum wage and are told every day it is all about the team, we refuse to look at you personally. Even in EVERY OTHER sport you have personal stats and they are known and recognized. We all know our favorite players skill lvl despite if his/her team isn't winning. The team only has to do with a tiny piece of a persons skill, your ability to teamwork. Of course teamwork is important but that is not even close to the entire puzzle, and shouldn't be seen as the only factor at play by any means. Keeping ranked win/loss would not only continue to cause bad matchmaking, it would also be askew from the sports standard.
> [{quoted}](name=130x,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=BB7NOOiA,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-03-20T12:14:09.481+0000) > > I disagree completely. What if other areas of life treated you that way. So in class the only thing that matters is the avg grade. You get 100s and study hard, but your classmates need LOTS OF help. So the class avg is a 69 and that is what you get also. You fail the class. Of course you deserved it because you are all in the same class, on the same team. You don't get a scholarship. You work for minimum wage and are told every day it is all about the team, we refuse to look at you personally. > > Even in EVERY OTHER sport you have personal stats and they are known and recognized. We all know our favorite players skill lvl despite if his/her team isn't winning. The team only has to do with a tiny piece of a persons skill, your ability to teamwork. Of course teamwork is important but that is not even close to the entire puzzle, and shouldn't be seen as the only factor at play by any means. Keeping ranked win/loss would not only continue to cause bad matchmaking, it would also be askew from the sports standard. No the correct comparison would be : "You take 1 test per class and your grade is the avg of the class everytime, after several tests you get your own personal grade which is the average of the averages". Obviously since you got 100 in every test, the class you were in would score slightly higher than the classes you were not in. The only difference is that ratings will be between something like 40 and 60 instead of 0 and 100 but it won't affect the final ranking if enough tests are taken.
: It's sad to see you have to state the obvious. If they implemented a KDA / objectives system, as a support, I would go full AP, steal CS, KS, and refuse to save teammates if it risked my rank. ESPECIALLY if it looked like we might lose already. Because my teammates would no longer be my teammates- they'd be my _competitors_. And no amount of screaming or flaming would get me to lower my rank so my teammates could have higher ones. (*not being mean, I don't want that set up to exist, I'm a 'pure' support main, just stating if a system rewarded me for kills, why play Janna?)
> [{quoted}](name=NekoniClaws,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=BB7NOOiA,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-03-20T11:16:05.285+0000) > > It's sad to see you have to state the obvious. > > If they implemented a KDA / objectives system, as a support, I would go full AP, steal CS, KS, and refuse to save teammates if it risked my rank. ESPECIALLY if it looked like we might lose already. Because my teammates would no longer be my teammates- they'd be my _competitors_. And no amount of screaming or flaming would get me to lower my rank so my teammates could have higher ones. Unless the system is not totally totally dumb and actually punishes you instead of rewarding you for building AP supports and stealing kills because he recognizes this pattern as counterproductive towards winning. Likewise if the system is able to assess that giving your life in order to save your ally contributed to the win more than letting him die you would get more points. It all comes down to how well the system can analyze the actions.
: How to climb elo
Gank bot, roam bot, tp bot, peel for your adc, die for your adc
: A short dash isn't that good for repositioning.
Yeah right it’s arguably the best repositioning spell of the game but it’s « not that good ».
: I did give you an argument. Being able to do all those things would be unhealthy because it is too much utility. Again, still waiting for you to stop running in circles and answer how a short term invisibility is unhealthy.
I’m not the one who claimed that. But I think it is unhealthy because an ADC’s main « weakness » is positioning and having a low cd mechanic that lets you reposition so well, without any possible counterplay, completely nullify that weakness and is therefore unhealthy.
: Being able to attack mid lane from dragon pit, permakite melees from over a screen away, stopping recalls, infinite poke under turret. Use your head and stop trolling me because **your lack of argument** doesn't change the fact I am right.
You are just explaining what the champion does but you don’t have any argument
KagenoOu (NA)
: Y'know what triggers the **** out of me? People who falsely claim someone is inting...
Just because you missed the action where the guy fed intentionally doesn’t mean it did not happen. The other day I had a 0-9-0 Ashe at around 12 mins. While that might be a genuine bad game for an inexperienced player, I consider this inting at my elo, except extreme cases (afk support or insane camp etc..). Especially when you add the fact that she was building guinsoo. Besides I know for a fact you can int like crazy and never get punished for it, as I have done it on a smurf that I wanted to get to bronze/silver. I see your point though and it is true that way too often people call « inting » a bad game or a bad move. Better kindly ask them to stop and report them in the end instead of spamming chat with nonsense.
Akaviri (NA)
: Lol, if I get first turret at adc usually we go mid and the mid laner goes bot (or the same but with the top laner). It's not that complicated. Never an issue in my games.
Its usually a bad idea to go mid. Most midlaners have enough wave clear to prevent you from taking tower all alone, and in the meantime you force your midlaner to a long lane where there is a 99% chance he’ll get ganked by 3 people, die and lose tower.
: Well, any champion with 3000 AA range would be unhealthy. Fortunately, Vayne's AA range is less than 3000.
But you haven’t proven it is unhealthy.
: Specifically dragon. They added it onto kill shutdowns I believe and then extra on towers. But I think that tower gold used to be higher as well.
Anyway I still don’t think someone should be rewarded for something that happened in the other side of the map and in which he had nothing to do with.
: Riot, why is it every time I come to boards, people are complaining about the game?
: There used to be more global gold, it was just harder to come by. I don't thing all global gold is bad. Just it has to be something that can be retrieved.
You have the history of changes to gold distribution somewhere? Cause iirc they added a lot of global gold and never removed any, aside from dragon (and it didn’t really get removed as new drakes give stats that still have gold value). I do agree that making this gold retrievable by a good move would at least be a step in the right direction.
: That implies auto attacks are unhealthy. Her E has counterplay. Don't stand near a wall. But her passive doesn't let her run away nor did you prove it was unhealthy. Again, you haven't proved short duration stealth is unhealthy. She cannot deal 1/4th HP with a single auto. Wave control and wave clear are two different things. You also forget to mention she has the worst early game in the game. > And he own playerbase low IQ of whom we made the VayneSpotting meme. And that's discrimination.
Let’s imagine a champion that has 3000 AA range and sight radius + silver bolts. Prove me it’s unhealthy
: Can we increase diversity in the game? @RiotRepertoir
Most important point for me is team gold. Say you are winning toplane but the rest of your team is losing. By the magic of shared gold you are now behind your opponent. I think it’s really the main reason why the game became so snowbally, when a team gets a small lead you actually have to deal with 5 fed players instead of 1 or 2.
: When the feeding Rengar finishes his Duskblade
Almost as frustrating as Yasuo hitting his 0-10 powerspike !
Bârd (NA)
: When BT stacked up to 100 total AD, that alone was enough.
Barkhoof (NA)
: I have been a huge proponent of the system up to now but if what the OP originally posted is accurate, you've tweaked it too heavily to punish. This is not toxic or harassment, this is at worst a semantic argument about whether or not the OP's opponent was int'ing. Let's say your right and he was int'ing: does that make any difference as to whether the OP should be punished? Because, even if he's lying about EVERYTHING concerning the specifics of a situation, he did it without cursing, without name-calling (at least in-game, you never posted post-game stuff), and in a general manner that I doubt would be seen as threatening. Where does that argument stop? So we're going to punish because of incorrect arguments now? If it was, as your last post said, because of excessive chat, you guys need to get really specific about what constitutes "excessive chat" because you don't ever spell it out. That can't be "I know it when I see it" - we know key hot-button terms not to use, grey areas are no way to run this particular type of system. This does not deserve a punishment and I know it specifically is influencing whether I purchase any RP - not because I'm worried about being punished but that I don't support this particular level of excessiveness.
It’s impossible to set a precise number of messages, as there are very different ways to communicate that will lead to a different amount of messages before it is considered toxic. So you kind of have to judge subjectively. Personally I would’ve been a little annoyed by this guy, and I assume the majority thinks so too. I don’t know if would’ve punished it though, but a chat restriction seems to be appropriate and in no way excessive.
Bârd (NA)
: Those builds came later. This was the original.
Ok i don’t remember. No offense but it is a pretty bad build as it doesn’t give you any of the stats you need.
: Is Jhin mid good?
You can abuse most champions level 1-2 but even with an early first blood you will quickly lose your edge. You can have some fun with it, but it can be frustrating sometimes as you can still lose while outplaying your opponent. Personally I prefer full lethality MF, her q bounce pokes super hard, W allows you to back easily and ulti for wave clear. Neither are very strong tho.
Bârd (NA)
: Bloodthirster > Last Whisper > Zeal > IE > Finish PD > GA/Maw
You built crit AS and life steal for a poke varus? Iirc it was more like tear and armor pen stacking
: what's the counterplay to tahm kench as any champion =?
> [{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tvnj6xrA,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-03-16T23:35:46.526+0000) > > what's the counterplay to tahm kench as any champion > > =? U bronze m8? CC the carry -> Tahm eats him -> CC Tahm until carry comes out -> CC the carry. What do you mean you cant save 3-4 ccs just to counter a basic ability ?
Terozu (NA)
: It wont crit just show the crit animation. I'm sure itd be simlle enough a change. Illumination counts as a debuff. And there are champs with special auto animations vs debuffed targets i think.
> [{quoted}](name=Terozu,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=inmj6ER9,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-16T19:16:11.073+0000) > > It wont crit just show the crit animation. I'm sure itd be simlle enough a change. > Yeah i meant crit animation. > Illumination counts as a debuff. And there are champs with special auto animations vs debuffed targets i think. Maybe. I was just clarifying someone’s point so i dont know !
: > [{quoted}](name=OzX,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=X6v5mRnM,comment-id=000100010000000000000001,timestamp=2018-03-16T18:36:26.974+0000) > > I'm French therefore I'm entitled to free medical care. > Oops, it seems that your "fact" is wrong. Except it's not free. You just don't pay for it when you use it. You pay with a % of your tax dollars as well as every other tax payer pays for a % of the costs of healthcare so that when a citizen of the Nation needs to utilize it, it's there for them. So your premise is false and therefore led to a false conclusion.
> [{quoted}](name=Lothloran,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=X6v5mRnM,comment-id=0001000100000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-03-16T18:42:16.293+0000) > > Except it's not free. You just don't pay for it when you use it. You pay with a % of your tax dollars as well as every other tax payer pays for a % of the costs of healthcare so that when a citizen of the Nation needs to utilize it, it's there for them. > > So your premise is false and therefore led to a false conclusion. You don't need to pay taxes to access free medical care. And sorry to burst your bubble but not every country in the world uses dollars.
: Exactly, why not give the same treatment to Lux passive? If the auto fails, still use the animation. There are other indicators afterwards to tell you if it's a fail anyway
> [{quoted}](name=TeCoolMage,realm=OCE,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=inmj6ER9,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-16T17:48:06.843+0000) > > Exactly, why not give the same treatment to Lux passive? If the auto fails, still use the animation. There are other indicators afterwards to tell you if it's a fail anyway But how do you decide which animation should be used? If target has a stack of passive when you issue the commande it crits?
: Ranged basic attacks can always "fail" for example if the target dies a splitsecond earlier or they use stasis, the animation will still be used though.
> [{quoted}](name=Leaf on Bush,realm=EUW,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=inmj6ER9,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-16T17:38:18.417+0000) > > Ranged basic attacks can always "fail" for example if the target dies a splitsecond earlier or they use stasis, the animation will still be used though. It doesn't matter whether the auto attack hits or not, It was still a crit/or not and therefore had the appropriate animation, even if it missed or whatever.
: > [{quoted}](name=OzX,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=X6v5mRnM,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2018-03-16T17:55:06.202+0000) > > I had not. But I'll correct that immediately. > > Corrected. http://i.imgur.com/K4c69Yp.jpg LOLOLOLOL!!! It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Anyone who believes they are entitled to something must predicate that entitlement on SOMETHING. They are entitled to X because they are Y. IF; Y = false THEN; X = null If you believe you are entitled to something you're a narcissist. Period. That's a fact. if you disagree with this fact then you must be a spoiled rotten narcissist yourself. "I have a university degree, I am entitled to a job" - wrong "I am a woman, I am entitled to everything a man has" - wrong. "I am a top laner, I am entitled to ganks" - wrong. You're not entitled to a job because you're educated. Plenty of people are educated. Jobs are earned by having more merit than the people competing for the job You're not entitled to everything a man has just because you're a woman. You can earn what a man has by doing the same amount of work. You're not entitled to ganks for existing on the top lane. You can earn them by placing wards, not over-extending your lane, helping to repel an invasion. Same goes for all lanes. I don't owe you shit, and I'm not going to facecheck unwarded bushes, I'm not going to gank a pushed lane and I'm not going to help a lane that sat there and watched me die to a 5 man invade without moving a muscle in my direction.
> [{quoted}](name=Lothloran,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=X6v5mRnM,comment-id=00010001000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-16T18:05:26.912+0000) > > If you believe you are entitled to something you're a narcissist. Period. That's a fact. I'm French therefore I'm entitled to free medical care. Oops, it seems that your "fact" is wrong.
: > [{quoted}](name=OzX,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=X6v5mRnM,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-03-16T17:44:41.337+0000) > > That was a solid argument a couple years ago, when jungles had other options. Now, if you are not ganking (eventually counterjungling) you are effectively afk, leaving your team in a 4v5. > I'm talking about ranked games btw. > > Proxy Singed never consisted in leaving your team 4v5 without applying pressure. > > "My opinion is the indisputable truth and anyone who disagrees is a moron".. tell me again who is narcissistic ? > I also never mentioned treating your jungler badly, I can very well blame you in a civilized and not offensive way, or even in my head. You're also not the one who downvoted me. Classic switcheroo bullshit reasoning. Me: Anyone who believes they are entitled to something is a narcissist. You: You think that you're right about that so it's really YOU who are the narcissist. Give me a break https://fellowshipofminds.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/time-magazine-millennials_500.jpg
> [{quoted}](name=Lothloran,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=X6v5mRnM,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2018-03-16T17:48:13.639+0000) > > You're also not the one who downvoted me. I had not. But I'll correct that immediately. > > Classic switcheroo bullshit reasoning. > > Me: Anyone who disagrees with my opinion is a narcissist blabla > Corrected.
: Looks like I've already been downvoted by someone who disagrees with me. Here are the facts. Anyone who believes ANYONE in this game is obligated to perform within the confines of the meta framework is making a serious SERIOUS assumption. No one is morally obligated to play based on how you think they should. No one is obligated to play based on how Riot thinks they should. Remember proxy singed in Season 4? A meta breaker, and Riot (being the stunning narcissists that they are) threw a God-Complex hissy fit and nerfed the play because it wasn't what they wanted. Fact: Anyone who disagrees with my post is as narcissistic as Riot was for nerfing proxyfarm singed. If you believe you're ENTITLED to ganks regardless of how you treat your jungler then I really don't want to see how you treat Wait-Staff, Taxi drivers or anyone else whom you perceive to be obligated to deal with your bullshit.
> [{quoted}](name=Lothloran,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=X6v5mRnM,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-03-16T17:31:30.929+0000) > > Looks like I've already been downvoted by someone who disagrees with me. > > Here are the facts. Anyone who believes ANYONE in this game is obligated to perform within the confines of the meta framework is making a serious SERIOUS assumption. > No one is morally obligated to play based on how you think they should. No one is obligated to play based on how Riot thinks they should. That was a solid argument a couple years ago, when jungles had other options. Now, if you are not ganking (eventually counterjungling) you are effectively afk, leaving your team in a 4v5. I'm talking about ranked games btw. > Remember proxy singed in Season 4? A meta breaker, and Riot (being the stunning narcissists that they are) threw a God-Complex hissy fit and nerfed the play because it wasn't what they wanted. Proxy Singed never consisted in leaving your team 4v5 without applying pressure. > > Fact: Anyone who disagrees with my post is as narcissistic as Riot was for nerfing proxyfarm singed. If you believe you're ENTITLED to ganks regardless of how you treat your jungler then I really don't want to see how you treat Wait-Staff, Taxi drivers or anyone else whom you perceive to be obligated to deal with your bullshit. "My opinion is the indisputable truth and anyone who disagrees is a moron".. tell me again who is narcissistic ? I also never mentioned treating your jungler badly, I can very well blame you in a civilized and not offensive way, or even in my head.
: Junglers are not obligated to gank
You don't have to. But if you don't gank heavily in this meta you are entirely responsible for the loss and you should expect to be blamed for that.
Speeedy (NA)
: i really like tristana and you are not stating any of her weakness > Currently Tristana has top DPS and can pump it out at a higher range than Caitlyn only at lvl 17 & 18 Some of her major flaws with the recent range nerf is that it is very easy to set up a freeze on her. I was watching a stream where it was a {{champion:18}} {{champion:223}} vs {{champion:51}} {{champion:25}} . The tristana had about 45 cs in 13 min in a masters level game. Her other major flaw is she can never freeze a lane when you are behind. They definitely made her weaker early which is fine but I don't see her being S tier now with Xayah, Cait and varus being top 3 in my opinion. > If someone still manages to close in on her, she burst people with a 300-500 base damage ability Also that is any ADC due to crit and that much damage is late game
You didn't state any weakness either, except from "she can't freeze lane" which can be a disadvantage If you are behind but is also an advantage when you want to push. Taking a single example of an extreme case is also useless.
: why is banning a champ in league seem like chopping a head off of a hydra
Autoban any champion that isn't between 48-52% win rate, until he is buffed/nerfed. GGWP.
Terozu (NA)
: And? What's your point here?
You can't know whether an attack will proc her passive beforehand. Its therefore impossible to decide if crit animation or normal animation should be used.
Arakadia (NA)
: She does not have several shunpos on demand. Q as a travel time, W has a delay, she has to get to the dagger, wait a few seconds, THAN she gets a shunpo. She really isn't slow and clunky. You can button mash all at once under one second anymore, which slowed down her gameplay. But the burst and mobility feel is still very much there. I think new Katarina does have some of its own issues however.
> [{quoted}](name=Arakadia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HzYayZwv,comment-id=000200010000000000010000,timestamp=2018-03-16T00:16:46.565+0000) > > Q as a travel time, W has a delay, she has to get to the dagger, wait a few seconds > > She really isn't slow Hmm..
: Nerfing his damage would have reduced his win rate in both high level play and low level play. As I said Riot said his low level play was in a decent spot, so they didn't want to harm it much. That's the key here, finding a nerf that doesn't harm low level play. His ult also effects low level play, but less so than the damage. They could have tried that first, but they didn't think it would be enough, and honestly neither do I. Ornn doesn't have many tools in his kit that have some amount of difficulty, be it raw mechanics or decision making, so they targeted the most obvious spot first.
I actually thought they also nerfed his W damage. My bad and thanks for info.
GigglesO (NA)
: We could try starting with damage nerf, see how that feels then try buffing attack speed as needed. Right now champs are already really close to 2.5 attacks per second while still having high ad. Doing both upfront may be unnecessary.
I see. Tanks would need immediate nerf then, else they would be impossible to deal with. But I think nerving their survivability A LITTLE and nerving their dmg A LOT might be a good solution if adcs indeed get nerfed. Would also make sense with the assassin rework as they would actually have time to apply their delayed burst before being killed by their target
: A champion is more than their lane phase, and even though many people feel his lane phase was out of line Riot was looking at the total. In total his low rank play wasn't particularly out of line, and his high ranked play was. Riot looked for something that would specifically target the high level play while leaving low level play alone, and the easiest way to do that is to nerf some form of skill expression. Based on the change in win rates it definitely had a large effect, and brought high level and low level play closer to where Riot wanted them to be.
> [{quoted}](name=redniwediS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Nrb6qpge,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-15T18:40:58.071+0000) > > A champion is more than their lane phase, and even though many people feel his lane phase was out of line Riot was looking at the total. In total his low rank play wasn't particularly out of line, and his high ranked play was. Riot looked for something that would specifically target the high level play while leaving low level play alone, and the easiest way to do that is to nerf some form of skill expression. > > Based on the change in win rates it definitely had a large effect, and brought high level and low level play closer to where Riot wanted them to be. I understood that. What i don’t understand is why they opt for such a solution when there are so many possibilities. I always thought nerfing skill expression should only be used as a last resort. Nerfing his damages and his ult most likely would’ve had the same results while keeping skill expression.
GigglesO (NA)
: Attack speed or Attack damage. There is still armor pen and % armor pen left, but I think if we reduce attack damage overall that penetration would be ok.
I said "increasing attack speed" and "reducing AD", one is a buff one is a nerf. You can't just tell me "one of the two" :o
: They did have a good reason for attempting the change at least. Ornn's low level play was fine to them, but his high level play was out of line. Removing skill expression from his kit is a way to bring down the good players without harming the bad ones too much. Still feels horrible, and I hope they revert it, but it's not like they completely ignored everything for this change.
I don't get the reasoning here. It's not hard to understand (even for new players) nor is it hard to use or play around, it's not even unclear on screen as he is breathing a huge cone of flames during the duration. I feel like the issue was excessive damage ensuring lane dominance, combined with a very strong catch/teamfight ulti (which better players are obviously better at capitalizing from).
: > [{quoted}](name=iDarkWind,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EmsALxTW,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-03-15T15:50:02.677+0000) > > The biggest Issue I have is that ADC's are also building it for countering both {{item:3147}} and {{item:3142}} lethality. > A 1100 gold item is capable to denie the lethality provided by those two items, wich to me makes no sense. > I would suggest to decrease the armor from 30 to 15 perhaps, and increase the damage reduction on the passive from auto attacks a bit. > I can't remenber a situation where I would build {{item:3111}} over {{item:3047}} , unless the enemy team is very AP oriented and the enemie ADC isn't a treat. To be fair, that has more to do with 80% of CC being displacements and making Tenacity largely pointless as a result.
Also has to do with the fact that most deaths happen so fast that reducing the CC by 25% won't make a difference.
: I'm not sure what the point of this post is.
Bow before your ADC overlord and give your life to protect him.
: You said it yourself. If botlane is more important than the other lanes then camping bot would be the smart move. So why do junglers tend to camp top in this meta?
What I usually do is collect my freekill top (maybe 2 kills if toplaner is dumb enough to TP without his jungler around) then I start wrecking bot thanks to my small lead. Of course every game is different, and it can fail for many reasons.
GigglesO (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=OzX,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y76VrFsV,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-03-15T17:39:04.837+0000) > > I disagree on the second part though. ADCs should actually have more attack speed but less AD, refocusing them on DPS and taking them further away from burst. I actually could get behind this. one of the two is all that is necessary though. I honestly don't understand why everyone is downvoting both comments either. ITs like we are trying to have a discussion about actually reducing damage in a meaningful way rather than just keeping this almost everyone is a nuke caster mentality. Why does a champion having survive ability piss people off? Its a trade off. You trade your damage for the ability to live. Why should everyone just be nuke casters.
> [{quoted}](name=GigglesO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y76VrFsV,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-03-15T17:54:22.179+0000) > > one of the two is all that is necessary though I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean there
GigglesO (NA)
: When can we Make things have mana costs and CDs?
To be honest, at this point they can make most champions resourceless or energy based it wouldn't make a difference. They can even remove CDR from the game and lower all spell cd's by 40%, wouldn't change anything. Mana is supposed to be a way to gate a champion's power, by forcing him to build mana early thus reducing his damages, or build damages but making every spell cast important. Likewise, if you itemize for CDR you can use more spells but they are less effective. At least that's how it used to be, now you just build the one or two items that give you literally everything you need : damage penetration AP/AD cdr and an unique passive {{item:3003}} {{item:3285}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3142}} I disagree on the second part though. ADCs should actually have more attack speed but less AD, refocusing them on DPS and taking them further away from burst.
koshkyra (NA)
: I swear you buy the tiniest amount of mr and immediately become unkillable to AP
> [{quoted}](name=JamesTheMage15,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HvlWuGvI,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-03-13T20:03:53.130+0000) > > Vayne auto: Lets say it crits for 1100 Vayne would need 440 AD and IE for that. lvl 18 Vayne with ulti has 132 AD, which means she had 308 AD from items and runes. 236 from items with a **50 min **gathering storm. IE and LDR give 120, with BT we reach 190. Where do you get the extra 46 AD for your calculation?
: To put simply I don't believe you. I think your bias is too strong against adcs because I've never heard someone complain about jhin killing tanks too fast. Unless you have a video for evidence I don't think you're worth taking seriously.
From what I understood, the Nidalee went ham on him for a relatively long time (probably taking him to 30-40% hp) then the Jhin came in and finished him in 3 autos. He is not stating that he got 3 shot by Jhin, he is wondering why a champion that itemized against tanks dealt less damages than a champion that has no items against tanks. I think the obvious is answer is ADC > Assassin when it comes to killing tanks, regardless of the itemization.
Ifneth (NA)
: This leads to hilarious situations on a late-game Veigar.
I hate it when I'm playing veigar and I flash on someone to give them that last auto but I miss click and I end up one shotting their nexus tower instead. RIP KDA.
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OzX

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