: > [{quoted}](name=Falrein,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=cYEiZa9g,comment-id=00020000000000010001,timestamp=2019-09-20T17:12:11.261+0000) > > I fundamentally disagree, which is why I said it was subjective. > > I consider Syndra and Xerath far more badass than Jax, for instance. Xerath started as a slave and worked his way through being the most powerful Ascended ever created. Syndra was locked down by the very land, and everyone tried to contain her, yet she outlived them all. Both could just throw a tantrum and create massive destruction. > > Also you can't call Syndra and Xerath pansies. You may not consider them badass, that's your opinion. But pansies? After what they've been through -which may not be as bad as other champions, it doesn't change that simple fact- and where they still are, and how powerful they are, calling them pansies? Ok, maybe they are mental or emotional pansies. Sure they had to ENDURE a great bunch. But ENDURING or SURVIVING something does not make a badass. But no, specializing in a combat form that involves little grit or true risk isn't all the badass. It may be other things, like smart, or devious, or underhanded, or whatever. But not badass. Not by a long shot. If the context was, who is more powerful? sure, syndra and xerath are more powerful than jax. They may be wiser, more cunning, or whatever. But they don't have the gritty physical determination to pair WITH their power to be truly badass. This isn't me calling jax stupid either, just that he's a courageous fighter. There is nothing really to assume that syndra or xerath exemplify any heroic level of courage. Again, enduring slavery and surviving don't automatically make you courageous or badass. What's more, champs like jax and darius display more badass traits that can be EMULATED. Sure, it's a fantasy world, but xerath and syndra can hardly be emulated. Their entire power sources are basically arbitrary for that matter. Someone said that a marine is not as badass as them. Well, I'm not a member of the military, but I take some exception to that argument. Characters like jax and darius represent real life warriors like marines. Xerath and syndra are pure make believe. This also constitutes my reply RyzetheSmurfMage and PaleMask
Is courage and waving a stick around at a threat you obviously cannot defeat what constitutes a badass? Not intelligence, dexterity, charisma, or wisdom? It sounds more like Jax is suicidal, overconfident, or just stupid if he picks fights with enemies he can't match. Following your own logic, Jax is a coward because, as far as we know, he has neither suffered any grueling emotional trials before the fall of Icathia (he was, by all accounts, just a respected if violent fighter), nor done anything important to combat any of the world's threats so far (unlike someone like Kassadin, who throws himself repeatedly into the fray regardless of the personal cost involved). Actually, the only thing Jax has been doing is surviving and gathering other people to help him, because he knows he cannot accomplish his task on his own. If muscles and stubbornness are the only things that make a badass, then I'd rather a character keep their head than die stupidly for the sake of heroism. Seems to me like Jax thinks the same way.
: That’s the thing, his title is grandmaster at arms but... that doesn’t necessarily encompass his whole combat prowess? He wins over beings like Cho’gath, Syndra, Xerath, and others with perhaps what seems to be sheer skill but definitely has beneath it some supernatural power. It’s not like he’s just a human being with insane mastery of weaponry; he’s... something beyond. The whole point behind his story was that him just being a mercenary that is an arms grandmaster that just randomly shows up is too cooked up to actually fit him. That’s his alias, but obviously one he doesn’t put much effort into keeping, as he’s clearly too skilled to be _just_ a human grandmaster at arms.
Sorry, but Jax doesn't win over any of those characters you've listed. He is an experienced fighter, and that's about it. To use your own examples, Cho'Gath is an unearthly horror of titanic proportions whose very presence would drive him mad, Syndra could ragdoll him around and snap his neck whenever she wanted, and Xerath could kill him with a pulse of magic from so far away he wouldn't even know what hit him. He's not human, no, but he's not a superman either. He doesn't have any extreme abilities to take on any of the real power players of Runeterra. He struggled a lot against an average Ascended warrior, and the beings you've listed surpass those in power. This is exactly why he's gathering _other skilled fighters_ to combat the Void beside him: because _he cannot do so alone_.
: > [{quoted}](name=Falrein,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=cYEiZa9g,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-09-20T12:22:26.873+0000) > > Oh no, no, that I know it's just... Well allow me to say it crudely but it's kind of laughable? > > I mean don't get me wrong I am sure Jax, in the IoW lore, was a great fighter. But in Runeterra (even the one back then), with champions such as Syndra or Xerath or... Well you get the point, I'm not sure a simple mastery weapons is enough to make you "the most powerful being". This is why I don't view him as _the_ badass. I mean it's completely objective anyway but surely you'll understand what I mean! But being badass just revolve around objective or relative power. It's also about personality, grit, being about action and not just words, etc. I'd even argue that neither xerath or syndra are badass at all. they're kind of pansies when you get right down to it. Jax's lore may be written in silly manner, and I may have bashed it previously in this very same thread, but jax is most certainly a badass (if not the most badass), and certainly more badass than paddycake xerath and hopscotch syndra. Think of it this way. Archers were very dangerous in medieval times, especially longbow men and crossbowmen when used properly in battle. But the swordsmen and knights on horseback were FAR more respected. They were widely looked upon as the true badasses, because they were physical and had to look their enemy in the eye and subject themselves to a far greater risk of harm. If I were being honest here, I'd place champs like azir, xerath, syndra, etc, at the back end of any compiled list of league badasses ranked 1-150.
Yeah, no, sorry, buddy, but "personality", "grit" and "character" are meaningless in the face of actual power. This is a fantastic world with entities the likes of which the human mind cannot conceive. Xerath single-handedly kept Azir on his throne and cast Shurima down beneath the sands before ascending into a god-like form; Syndra is the single most dangerous magical threat that Ionia faces at this moment. Xerath used to be a slave, and his name means "devil", in a way that represents his cunning; Syndra was abused by the people around her, who repeatedly broke her trust (her name now means "destruction"). Do you think they did not earn these names? Do you think it's easy to be a victim of abuse your entire life? Xerath and Syndra specifically were also imprisoned for countless years, and Xerath himself struggled with _Renekton_ all that time. It's fine if you don't like these characters, but both as persons and through their achievements they are realistically more badass than any firefighter or marine you can think of. You can be as biased as you like, but don't downplay their feats and try to pass it off as reality.
: TT's removal and implications of Vilemaw/Elise lore
Vilemaw is significantly more important to Elise than any other character in her lore, though. Her followers are slaves, LeBlanc is an ally of convenience, and her husband only exists to make her a figurative black widow. He's also the only thing tying her to the Shadow Isles right now. Removing Vilemaw from her lore would mess up more things than it would fix. She's supposed to be a cult leader - someone who struck a pact with dark powers out of self-interest. Unlike Swain, who outwitted his "patron", Elise has a mutually beneficial relationship with Vilemaw. You can't separate the two any more than you can Illaoi and Nagakabouros or Malzahar and the Void; sure, you could pull a Lissandra again, but I personally wouldn't recommend it.
: 🍷 Vladimir 🎂 Birthday 🎂 Thread 🍷
I would cross oceans of time for my sweet prince.
: > [{quoted}](name=Pale Mask,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=q56Qb5ay,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-07-19T12:36:45.807+0000) > > Lucian - 7/10; Lucian's wife is dead. Did you know? Nice summary of all VO lines towards him. No one's like "Hey Lucian, what'cha doing?". They just start trashing his love. She's dead btw, icymi.
EATARI (NA)
: Taliyah has some of most genuine yet upbeat reactions to everything in her life. I think she has a pretty healthy amount of sadness, and is probably the best waifu in lol. Whole post was pretty good TBH.
Taliyah is a good choice. She's also legal ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Rioter Comments
ChunLii (NA)
: Aside, from Varus as LGTBQ+ representation, here are some other champions that could serve.
New champions/characters and champions/characters hinted to be LGBT+ being revealed as LGBT+? Sure. Champions/characters where sexuality was never a thing and/or didn't matter being revealed as LGBT+/non-LGBT+? Alright. Champions/characters where sexuality was established and/or was important being changed to LGBT+/non-LGBT+? Nuh-uh. Sexuality mattering? Who cares, **_the Void will swallow all_**.
Falrein (EUW)
: Morgana's possibly lost archetype - Mistress of the Dark Arts
I don't for a moment doubt that Morgana has been studying alternatives to celestial magic; a clash with Kayle is an inevitability that she should be prepared to handle. Given how she's treated as a forest-dwelling witch and is a figure out of pagan myth, I'd say she should be most well-versed in spiritual practices. It's just that her brand of magic is shaped by her personality and thus manifests as dark and frightening. They thought her magic evil, indeed; it isn't, but it has that goth flavor to contrast Kayle and her holier-than-thou attitude.
GenoXx (NA)
: How would you all feel If CD Project Red were to offer making a game out of League's lore?
That will never happen. They don't do pandering and milking cash cows :^)
: Communication between Champions
Runeterra has many languages, it's just that everything (except for a few select quotes that are meant to demonstrate the Runeterrans' various tongues) is translated into English for the sake of convenience. Most champions probably wouldn't understand each other. Interactions are necessarily hypothetical, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.
: Swain's a hero
Elise is a hero. Seriously. She takes care of endangered wildlife, restores priceless artefacts lost to history and selflessly gives them away to modern museums, fights for freedom of religious belief, and even removes callous, manipulative, ambitious nobles from power before they can enact their wicked schemes and oppress minorities. That's all I had to say, thank you.
EdgeLady (NA)
: Let's talk about the big armored Demacian in the room
His dashing good looks and rugged charm, of course.
Rodsquad (EUW)
: What champions have their appearance mentioned by another?
Eclipse Leona comments on Elise's appearance in her voice lines: _"Foul pretender, thy delicate beauty belies a darker hunger!"_ _"Farewell, Elise. Such beauty is wasted on a monster."_ And also, on Diana's: _"Fair Diana, cast away thy blade. I do not wish to end thee so."_
: > [{quoted}](name=Pale Mask,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=8wwoT4J0,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-07-09T18:59:50.258+0000) > > _Xerath > Azir > Nasus / Renekton > Varus / Rhaast_ > > Aatrox's power depends on the amount of bodies he has access to. With sufficient flesh, he could be on the level of Xerath. Generally, I'd put him between Azir and Nasus / Renekton. > > And no, being resurrected is not a feat. Sorry. Generally as in base form aka with only a few bodies or like a hundred or smth like that?
It's pointless to rank him if he only has access to three dead people, so I'm going with 'more than a hundred'. I don't think that's enough for him to beat Azir, but he should be able to fight Nasus and Renekton with that.
: Ascended Power levels
_Xerath > Azir > Nasus / Renekton > Varus / Rhaast_ Aatrox's power depends on the amount of bodies he has access to. With sufficient flesh, he could be on the level of Xerath. Generally, I'd put him between Azir and Nasus / Renekton. And no, being resurrected is not a feat. Sorry.
: That bit on Aatrox having enough bodies feels like a weak line of reasoning as it’s just giving Aatrox more power. It’s a bit more relevant in the army matchup, but I could say the same but for Mordekaiser. There are multiple ways to interpret that quote. Aatrox could be referring to his overall goal of bringing about the end of all things, or simply gassing himself up. I could say that, since we know Darkin can be rendered to their weapon form and destroyed/suppressed (since Kayn could hypothetically do it to Rhaast), it would be a simple matter for Mordekaiser to pick up the weapon. Trying to definitively say one can take on the other just quashes discussion without any actual evidence, since this whole thing is based on conjecture anyway.
> That bit on Aatrox having enough bodies feels like a weak line of reasoning as it’s just giving Aatrox more power. It’s a bit more relevant in the army matchup, but I could say the same but for Mordekaiser. It is not a weak line of reasoning, since it is literally the basis of his power. Mordekaiser grows stronger with every soul trapped in Mitna Rachnun, not every undead minion he has deployed on the battlefield; having access to a larger supply of bodies is crucial for Aatrox, however, since we've been told before that, depending on the battlefield and how many bodies he can use, he could take out Xerath. Mordekaiser gets no such benefits from his servants. > There are multiple ways to interpret that quote. Aatrox could be referring to his overall goal of bringing about the end of all things, or simply gassing himself up. Definitely, just like how Mordekaiser is hyping himself up with every quote. However, it's heavily implied that the "death" Aatrox brings is not quite unlike the Void: he tears his victims asunder, not merely killing them, but eradicating them on every level. This is the basis of his nihilistic philosophy, since he wants to obliterate everything to end himself - permanently. > I could say that, since we know Darkin can be rendered to their weapon form and destroyed/suppressed (since Kayn could hypothetically do it to Rhaast), it would be a simple matter for Mordekaiser to pick up the weapon. Kayn has no real way to win against Rhaast; what happens in Shadow Assassin is that he merely suppresses his consciousness to use him, but he doesn't destroy him - basically, even when Kayn "wins", Rhaast survives this and simply has to look for another host after Kayn dies. The only Darkin we've seen destroyed before were not in weapon form, and it was done with celestial magic the likes of which Mordekaiser has no access to. Picking Aatrox up wouldn't defeat Aatrox. > Trying to definitively say one can take on the other just quashes discussion without any actual evidence, since this whole thing is based on conjecture anyway. I agree with you, but not in this case. Mordekaiser fashions himself a "god" that will replace other "false gods"; Aatrox is, indeed, the "God-killer", and has the power necessary to purge Mordekaiser from existence. Unless Aatrox is lacking in bodies, Mordekaiser can't really beat him.
: Aatrox vs Mordekaiser
Aatrox is by far the most powerful of the Darkin, a being stated to have killed spirit gods before. Despite his tremendous power, Aatrox can defeat Mordekaiser with a large enough supply of bodies regardless of the presence of Mordekaiser's army. More importantly, Aatrox may have a way to permanently slay Mordekaiser by severing him from Mitna Rachnun; as he says himself, he does not bring "death", but "oblivion". And no, Mordekaiser can certainly not take on all of the five remaining Darkin by himself at once. And no, _Mordekaiser can most definitely not survive the Void_. Don't overestimate his capabilities.
GreenLore (EUW)
: Sooo what about {{champion:69}} who is now also a member of the black rose?
The idea of expanding the triad to include a fourth member has come up before, with the most common additions being [sadism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadistic_personality_disorder) and [BPD](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder). Cassiopeia could fit these with her callous murder, torture and treachery of others both for personal gain and just because she feels like it. She's not one of the leaders of the Black Rose, however; she's only one of their pawns.
Falrein (EUW)
: Cool thread. Why do you always make cool threads? Why are you so perfect? Why? WHY? Joke aside, really interesting insightful, good analysis! Love it.
Thanks. Diagnosing fictional characters with real-world psychological issues is very 😎 dank 🔥, you know 👌?
Rioter Comments
: I'm not sure I would put "the big three" above the other spirit gods. Let's just say those gods' avatars have been more active, more recently in the parts of the world we've collectively been looking at... currently. ( wow, that was a mouthful) Also your big three forgets about _Kindred_ {{champion:203}} (which has many forms but the in-game one is almost assuredly the southern Freljordian depiction of that spirit.) {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
So, what about [that spider Nunu mentions](https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/5/52/Nunu_263.ogg/revision/latest?cb=20180817190929) ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Falrein (EUW)
: Kayle and Morgana - Thoughts, theories, and lore directions
They weren't depicted with enough nuance, that's what I think. There's plenty of proof that they're both going to undergo character development in the right direction (and that they aren't as hostile one to another as it may seem), but I believe they could've been handled more gracefully than this. Kayle is too zealous on-page, whereas Morgana's flaws aren't as visible; unless you read Riot comments and go over their quotes, the situation looks fairly black and white. As for them making up and working together, I think that it's only a matter of time.
Rioter Comments
: How strong do you think Vladimir is compared to the other champions based on lore?
He's a very high-tier mage, with millennia of experience and using a rare type of magic the secrets of which few really know. Blood magic is versatile and dangerous against any opponent who obviously has blood, and even then, Vladimir can also use his own. Aside from this, he also has knowledge of other forms of magic, so I would say he's fairly powerful even if he isn't on the level of demigods or someone like Xerath.
: LeBlanc: How empathy can make you more inhuman
I'd prefer it if she weren't a psychopath, I think that's more fitting for someone like Vladimir. I think LeBlanc has empathy, but she's conscious of what she's doing. She's been alive for very long and her intelligence is far ahead of her peers, so sympathising is difficult. Seeing as how she's toying with powers beyond mortal comprehension, she can't think too much about the lives of other people. More importantly, the impact of willful "evil-doing" is bigger than that of someone who never had compassion in the first place. Consider how pragmatic Swain is, then compare that to a smarter and much more experienced LeBlanc, who's also out on her own since even her closest "allies" are ready to turn on her; in a way, compassion could kill her. This doesn't make her less of a villain, but I think it does give her actions more weight.
: The real interesting part about Vile'maw is the reason it is there. Spirit God doesn't really make much sense to me because well, why would the people of the Blessed Isles first believe such a spirit? Can the souls lurking about the Isles now that they are Shadowey still have beliefs that have morphed into Vile'maw? Unlikely. I believe whatever Vile'Maw is it's going to be new. Neither Celestial or Demon really strike me down as convincing. The closest thing I think we have to it is Nagakabouros, and given her place, she could even be Nagakabouros' antagonist. It preserves beauty rather letting life do its thing. It resides in the place that is most against Nagakabouros' ideology of change and cycles, and there's even the whole Mist invading The Serpent Isles plot, which further puts these two figures against each other.
I will say that I did consider the possibility for him to be a kind of "anti-Nagakabouros" who acts against change and overturns death, but it'd be a little biased considering it'd elevate both him and Elise by proxy to a _much higher_ power level :^) There are similarities between them, but I'm not sure Vilemaw should be so powerful.
: That's a fantastic essay. I think my favorite interpretation of Vilemaw is that of an originally benevolent knowledge-based spirit god who got turned into a ravenous but intelligent monster by the Ruination. Probably because it's both tragic and horrifying, which are the two cornerstones of everything Shadow Isles. Anyway, fantastic takes overall.
I do like the idea that Vilemaw was originally a more positive being twisted by either the Ruination or its own desires. In a way, that would make it parallel Elise more closely, and I think it would fit the general narrative of the Shadow Isles.
Rioter Comments
: LeBlanc Design vs. Lore
I simply think that she's a total disconnect between archetype and execution, and needs a VGU as soon as possible.
Seba7290 (EUNE)
: Do we know how the Blessed Isles were governed
I believe a Rioter once described them as a "scholarocracy", where scholars (obviously from the name) held the most power. Our closest real-world equivalent would probably be a [geniocracy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geniocracy).
: Here's Morde's theme
: Voting Result for the upcoming VGU
"You get a VGU, and you get a VGU, and you-" _Points at Pantheon._ "-you _especially_ get a VGU."
: What is this? A meaningful Vlad taunt? OwO The way he pronounced Vladimir is exquisite. Thank you, Narrative.
Yes, finally a Vladimir interaction. It's a pity they left a certain woman out, however.
  Rioter Comments
: I'm wondering why they kept his color text as it was considering that now there is no connection between him and the Black Mist.
His new color story is supposed to be arriving fairly soon. _Shadows of Damnation_ is currently a placeholder.
  Rioter Comments
: Montrous Potential 1: Cho'Gath and Chaoskampf
There's whole worlds out there just waiting to be snuffed out. #For the Void.
: In Morde's new joke he literally swats a Poro away
: UNHOLY Shizzle batman! (Mordekaiser Rebuilding)
_Death is only the beginning._ Hail to the Lightbringer.
Rioter Comments
Falrein (EUW)
: Y'know it's hard to discuss when I agree with everything you say D:
I suppose I could add that I prefer uber powerful characters ~~and like to look for ways to make the weaker ones more powerful through exploits~~? Mass destruction is fun.
Falrein (EUW)
: Power, magic and their place in storytelling - participative thread
> Can a character be too powerful for their own good? Yes, they can be. If a story does not give limitations or opposition to a super-powerful character, unless their power is actually relevant or important to the story, it sometimes overrides their other traits. Luckily, I don't think this is a problem in League (from what we've seen so far). > If power is relative, how do I know how powerful a character actually is? I don't think power levels are necessary unless the story is based around them (like Dragon Ball). A character's power constantly fluctuates in minor or major ways, and unless otherwise specified, most characters should be able to constantly grow in power if the story they appear in features 'power' (magical, physical, etc.) as a theme. > How do you feel about a story where a character loses their powers, either temporarily or indefinitely? I'm not a fan of them, unless a character's powers are unimportant to them overall or they're compensated in some way. In the case of antagonists, you could argue that this can serve as a form of punishment, but since League is a character-driven universe (where even villains should be catered to), declawing the powerful should probably not happen except in extreme circumstances. > What place do you think power should have in a character's story/life? Depends on the character and type of character they are. In the case of someone like Xerath, being powerful is important, as archmagic is one of his central themes; in the case of someone like Twisted Fate, other than a few card tricks, exhibiting power should be done in a more grounded, subdued manner. There's a place for both these characters (and others between, above, or below them) in the story, so I'd say it's ultimately up to the characters themselves whether or not power is important.
Sinking (EUW)
: Swain vs Vlad lorewise who would win?
Vladimir is far more powerful magically, for sure, but Swain is unlikely to meet him on the battlefield, and is a more cunning and shrewd politician. Not to underestimate Vladimir, but he's very impulsive, prone to mood swings, and homicidal, which isn't exactly ideal for ruling a kingdom (if you'll recall, he was revered as a bloodthirsty god, not a respected ruler). Politically, it'd be like comparing Caligula to Augustus.
TacoBrain (EUW)
: On Nagakabouros, Celestial Bridges and Star Dragons
The only thing that I could possibly add to this is that you should upvote and read this entire post because it tackles with some interesting ideas. I'm looking at you, Riot.
: Known "Gods" in Runeterra?
Your best bet would likely be Nagakabouros, the Freljordian demigods Anivia, Ornn, Volibear, and Seal Sister, the Aspects of Targon (not the vessels, like Zoe, but the actual celestial they are hosting, like the Protector or Trickster), the Spirits of the various lands (such as the Spirit of Ionia), or the spirit gods (Bard, Kindred, etc). Other candidates include Aurelion Sol, Ascended/Darkin (pre-Fall of Shurima and during the Darkin War, though it's arguable Azir could be worshipped today), powerful spirits/demons (Janna and Evelynn are shown to have followings), Vilemaw, Mordekaiser, Lissandra, the inhabitants of the Swimming City, or the Watchers (and possibly powerful Voidborn, like Vel'Koz and Cho'Gath). There are also mythic figures like the Veiled Lady and the Grey Lady.
Sharjo (EUW)
: A Map of the Birthplaces of as many Champions as Possible
Do you plan on updating this as more champion birthplaces are revealed? I get the feeling that Mordekaiser's upcoming VGU will likely tell us where he comes from, for instance.
Moody P (NA)
: Volibear made Anivia?
I think I'll go with 'no'.
: Suggestions/Ideas/Hopes on Runeterrean Languages
I would really like this, especially in the case of champions like Karthus and Lissandra, who have impactful ultimates. IMO, it's a bit weird how a master of magic like Ryze says "Zap!" when using his abilities instead of an actual incantation in an old tongue. We already got Freljordian language stuff in Ashe's comic, and we'll see more languages show up elsewhere and for other cultures, but it'd be ideal if upcoming champion updates could pay a bit more attention to flavor with this.
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Pale Mask

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