: > [{quoted}](name=Penns,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wAXhEoAj,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-21T00:00:04.244+0000) > > Pro play =/= soloq tho you don't say all i'm telling you is that if you're as smart as pro players janna will not be a problem to you > [{quoted}](name=Penns,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wAXhEoAj,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-21T00:00:04.244+0000) > > 20% pick rate with 55% win rate on any other champ that isnt played in pro play still = opieop > > And why is her pick rate in bronze - gold around 10% and in dia+ over 20% with the same win rate if you just need to be good and not pick divers hehe you don't need to give me stats because i give 0 fuck, i know this shit since 5 years now and it has never changed, riot nerfed janna a lot of time by nerfing EVERYTHING but disengage, tornado is trash unless charged, passive only works if people walk toward you, ult stun after knockback is 0.25 instead of 0.75 passive no longer works on janna everything was made to make janna boring af by only able to stay behind, help her team to disengage and that's it and now, you want to nerf her for doing that, when in pro she's not picked because people won't be dumb to pick divers into her it's pointless, end of discussion here
you dont have to first pick janna if you want to pick her in pro play tho btw lel dont really want her nerfed but those stats being accepted is interesting xd
: yeah, never picked in pro, hmmmm, i wonder why son oh, maybe it's because they're not dumbass to play divers and assassins into janna, but instead they go for tanks, melee carries, long range mages and adcs, making janna completly useless yeah, i'm really not getting it, janna is so broken i should tell pros to pick her
Pro play =/= soloq tho 20% pick rate with 55% win rate on any other champ that isnt played in pro play still = opieop And why is her pick rate in bronze - gold around 10% and in dia+ over 20% with the same win rate if you just need to be good and not pick divers hehe
: woah it's almost as if janna is one of those champions that always had a high win rate time has never changed, even in league's old GD forum every single janna thread had ONLY for argument "wow, look at the win rate"
y is it ok for janna tho lel over 20% pick rate and perma ~55% win rate in dia+ on any other champ = opieop
: How I would change league
dont buff {{champion:9}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:11}} {{champion:120}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:127}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:98}} {{champion:13}} tho hehe
Rioter Comments
Sujiren (NA)
: You always max w on laning kayn, as its his only range ability to poke/ farm with. You only max Q when jungling.
Id max Q top lane against melee champs as well tho. moar damagez
: but when using R -Leech and gain** untargetable effect **and a morg or fidd can ult and u get damaged while already **untargetable in ult status**, that's when its a bug, and needs to be reported
Morg ult is a tether so it should still stun you, Fiddle ult shouldnt hurt when you ult him. If it does its a bug I guess but I dont think it does.
: Vanguards are using support items because they lost their role of Tank carry.
: this build is so fuckin dumb lol
A few tanks are weak, support top and jungle meta has a lot of tanks, so tanks are weak lel
: Sense Kayn is "balanced"
If u play Darius try auto attacking next time hehe xd
: 1.nerf gnar and leave him in the gutter for an entire season because of mallet 2.buff him again and refuse to look at the one thing making him busted beyond belief which is frozen mallet shutting down melees completely. wait for community outrage and repeat without nerfing mallet or making it melee only
Like Irelia, probably his hardest counter hehe
: My biggest concern about post-VGU Swain's kit
Well its a full rework so.. its gonna be a new champ feelsbadman
: Runes Corner: Hunt of the Blood Moon Sneak Peek
Moly 15 seconds, cd is high too tho. Enchanting boots with an active effect sounds interesting, but what about very late game games where you would want to sell them for a 6th item? :o
Doozku (NA)
: > Also Kha is an exception anyway Except Kha isn't the exception. There are other Assassins like him. You bring up Talon, and you say that he has an instant combo with ult that has low range. That is exactly the kind of stuff that we are talking about. Talon needs to use his wall jump mechanic effectively to be able to gapclose onto people, kill them, and then get out. That's his isolation mechanic. However these designs of Assassins are way rarer than the other type of Assassin, which confuses me because I find this type of Assassin to be far more successful and healthy design wise. Note that many of the Assassins with delayed kits are balance nightmares. Remember the last time that Zed was considered balanced on not either overpowered or weak? What about LB? Look at what ended up with her rework. I'd even consider Fizz's rework somewhat of a failure because it made his playstyle much more binary and ult reliant. The biggest success on this kind of Assassin design was probably Kat.
Well I agree but most people are suggesting either a full revert or a revert to his Q and R with minor changes to other abilities. And old Rengar wasnt very conditional with his ult giving you a... not very useful alert and making him invisible even while walking right through you.
: I mean, Kayn's base kit isn't specifically an assassin's, and when he does go into assassin mode his W changes so that he loses one of his animation locks, whereas his Q itself is partly a dash, which will always have some degree of animation locking. I speak as a Rengar non-main, but I think it is possible to assassinate targets from stealth and still be healthy, so long as the assassin in question has back-loaded burst: if Rengar could force a duel anytime, for example, but had to really outplay his target afterwards in order to kill them, allowing them to outplay him in turn, he could be in a healthier state than the current one where he has both good target access and upfront burst.
Yeah if his ult was just a gap closer (I mean.. it already is basically) and he had to outplay his enemy after it would be alright. But thats not what Rengar does or ever did, and most people I see ask for a revert. Idk what would be the right thing to do honestly. Assassins that got too much counterplay to really work as assassin just started building tanky/bruiser with Trinity Force {{champion:107}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:35}} Only solution is to rework them again imo, but this time not in a forced "mass-rework". (Except Fizz, I main(ed) him so I might be biased, but I think reverting him is fine since his ult already was a skillshot with a delay and 75% of his spells were dodgable.)
Doozku (NA)
: Here we go. I'm going to use Riven as an example here. What if Riven got a rework that removed all of her animation cancels, which slowed down her overall burst and fluidity, but then got more tools to help her in teamfights and make her stronger overall. She'd feel fairer to play against, since her damage is slower, but she'd still be strong and viable. But the problem is that many players picked Riven almost solely because of her animation cancel heavy playstyle. If that was removed, then many players would stop playing Riven because she lost her main appeal. The same thing happened with Rengar. One of the main reasons people played him was his fluidity. Once that was gone, a lot of the appeal of the champion was gone too. > Assassin damage isnt supposed to be instant and unavoidable anymore tho. You mean like K6? His Q is point and click exactly like Rengar's, and he can kill people in 0.25 seconds just as well. Why does his kit work while Rengar's doesn't? Its because K6 has to wait for the target to become isloated before he can go in. Old Rengar had his R where he would just walk into fights and blow people up without giving then any opportunity to counter them. If Rengar was given some kind of limit just like K6, his Q would be allowed to return.
>If Rengar was given some kind of limit just like K6, his Q would be allowed to return. Yeah, IF, but all he suggested was that Q needs a revert and R needs less counterplay. Also Kha is an exception anyway, which is why he stayed relevant. Kat got her delayed daggers, Talon has his 3 spell passive (tho he does have an instant combo with ult, but that has low range), Fizz has to wait 2 seconds for his W crit,..
: 333 is also arguing to remove the crit on Rengar's ult in direct relation to this, and praised Rengar's Ferocity changes due to how they prevented him from initiating with an empowered nuke, so I don't think they're asking for "instant and unavoidable" damage so much as better smoothness and fluidity to his kit. Many players see Rengar as an assassin, and assassins tend to be the most agile and dextrous characters in any game, so animation locks do go against that feel.
Well the newest assassin has the same thing on his Q just with a longer animation and his W before transforming. It would still be instant and an auto attack. Rengar is a hard one honestly.. The idea of "stealth + movement speed boost and then assassinate someone" is.. not exactly healthy. But if you try to make it healthy it ends up being not as fun and having too much counterplay like Rengar and other assassins.
333 (EUNE)
: Q: Feels clunky since it locks you up if you are playing assassin(not good). Old Q was an AA cancel and felt fluid. Needs a revert. This means that it can be cast before leap, to make up for this simply let Rengar lose his free crit from ult. W: Is problematic. Since it scales off of hp it rewards Rengar for building hp, which is not suited for assassins. Maybe make his regular W grant tenacity and let his ferocity W heal for a flat amount like before rework and remove CC like now? E: Is fine. R: The alert range needs to get significantly decreased so that it feels more like a hunt rather than a military call for the enemy team to group. Enemy shouldn't get alerted before I could jump either, either make both the alert and invisibility instant or make both have a 2 second delay. The alert indicator on the nearest target however, is fair counterplay. Passive: Good change. Prevents ferocity burst build up before ulting. Bonetooth is a little problematic and could be more creative but seems okay like this. Edit: W idea
Assassin damage isnt supposed to be instant and unavoidable anymore tho. Can you really not handle the mini-animation on his new Q?
Jackom1 (EUW)
: It's champion roadmap time everybody!
oh they learned from the assassin update, thats why shadow assassin is the weaker form hehe
Ralanr (NA)
: Why? To allow burst mages to be more effective against anti burst classes?
Giving them more options (so making magic pen on {{item:3136}} /{{item:3151}} a named unique passive and making more items build out of it) shouldnt make mages/ap assassins more effective against tanks.
: a tanky champion is surviving a mage's burst, something is indeed wrong i only play mordekaiser, and end up with 40% mr pen+40 flat mr pen in every single game with runes and masteries, i deal true damage to everyone who has 70 mr or below (magic resistance can go under 0) and it's rare for someone to have more than 70 mr if you have 100 mr? i don't care, i reduce it to 20 which just increases my damage by 30% Magic pen is fine, you are not fine, trying to burst a thresh with mr items with a zyra is a bad idea, maybe you should improve
Amout of magic pen is fine imo since boots + Haunting Guise = basically 0 mr for squishies. But I think there could be more options like splitting Void Staff into 2 items like Last Whisper or making more items build out of {{item:3136}}
: I thought the point of the assassin update was to give assassins longer burst windows.
: With the Heavy damage nerf of Thornmail +Sunfire, Vanguards are in danger now
{{champion:79}} {{champion:154}} {{champion:57}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:12}} in danger, very weak champions hehe
: > [{quoted}](name=Zerenza,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9AFlJdbI,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-07-18T14:15:52.172+0000) > > Look, melee champions have a much more difficult time doing what they need to do. An assassin needs to assassinate, i don't care about what they need to do, having kha procing 360 damage 3 or 4 times with his passive and ult is not balanced at all having hecarim almost oneshoting me with duskblade triforce and other items is not balanced at all duskblade is supposed to only be bought on assassins, atm it's bought on every single ad champ it's NOT BALANCED on melees either
51-2% win rate kha abusing op item op hehe
: So far I have been 1 shot by...
Broken 215 bonus damage oneshots me hehe
: It isn't about winrate. It's about the fact that people are rushing it FIRST on champs that should not be building it in the first place.
Well that was the intention of the change, making it a viable first item.
: Duskblade definitely needs a NERF.
And looking at stats from just this patch, none of those champs has a win rate over 53%. So... idk.
: counter to duskblade is warding to prevent the damage
Does it really need a counter tho? You cant counter Shiv at all and it does the same dmg aoe.
Zerenza (NA)
: That's fair, but even with this build {{item:3142}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3036}} {{item:3026}} {{item:3117}} (A normal build for a real game) I did about 4246 damage with a full combo(AA+Q+AA+W+AA+R+AA) to the dummy. Now that sounds like a lot, cause it is. But the thing is that, that's not how much it SHOULD be doing while his passive is up. Without it i do 3558 damage with the same combo. So 44% of 3558, that's 1565. so i SHOULD be doing, according to the passive, 5123 damage, not 4246. This means that if you have 50% or more MR, Kayn's passive get's reduced by 50%, so instead of 44% it's more like 20-22%. And that's kind of dumb, If it applied the damage as AD, then he'd be closer to the damage it says he's supposed to. Not to mention, he doesn't do this damage instantly, it takes time to apply this damage about 3-5 seconds for the full combo, which is almost 3x the length of time it takes any other assassin to kill a target. And the thing is, within that time, that assassin has already accepted their fate, they most likely won't make it out of this but their gonna take that squishy down with them, hopefully. Now, this isn't just about the damage, the damage is still good, it's just the lack of clarity that's the issue. Now i know that i have to stat check someone to see how much my passive is gonna do and whether i can rely on it or not. Also, i do agree, support items suck for all assassins, as does lifesteal when your opponent can get to full health within the time it takes you to kill them. But, the lack of clarity his passive has, bother's me, and the lack of satisfaction when using his ultimate bother's me as well.
I dont think there really is a clarity problem, it says "x% of damage dealt as bonus magic damage", which... it does. Only thing I think they should change is how it says "all damage", because it doesnt increase blue smite or Ignite damage (not even sure about thunderlords).
Zerenza (NA)
: Litterally tested it in practice tool for the last 30 minutes, there's no noticable difference to having the passive up or down. It literally doesn't work.
Well dummies have 100 100 armor/ mr, thats pretty high against an assassin. In a real game I feel like SA does give me a pretty big spike in damage. He just has the same problem that every assassin has, support items suk. Its like if Vayne was in every single game, you probably couldnt play tanks very well either.
Raoul (EUW)
: Now that everyone and their mother can permanently apply griveous wounds, what happens to Mundo?
Zerenza (NA)
: @Riot I really like Shadow Assassin Kayn
His passive isnt a problem imo but his ult feels like it needs... something more, tho resetting paassive can be pretty strong too.
: Couple things about Kayn
Are you sure about 2.? The reason I go blue smite is that I can instantly ult someone whenever I want o
: {{champion:29}} {{champion:498}} {{champion:67}} These are the only champions I can think of who actually provide burst and sustained damage. It's not their items, it's their kits. I'd like to ask though, why isn't it the job of the adc, the champion who builds only damage, to deal damage to everyone? Building crit means you're all inning into damage. You need 3 multiplying stats for it to work, leaving very little room to build much else. Why would somebody build damage to only counter tanks? Why wouldn't that damage also affects squishies?
There is a difference between "doing damage to squishies" and "2 shotting them with point and click crits". Not sure whats faster, the 2 seconds delayed skillshot Fizz ult and the Zed ult that takes 3 seconds to pop or the instant 700-1k+ damage crits lul
: Unless Faker says it, I'm not going to take the word of any individual player.
If its about solo q, Apdo probably > Faker tho
: even if he doesn't get kited, dude deals no damage unless going for offensive items making him squishy garen still has 48% win rate in diamond+ for a low skillcap champ he's garbage
: She does, actually. When I was playing Lux mid, I was very frustrated that I could never decisively win lane against an Orianna. I saw many, many complaints about how OP she is, so I decided to give her a try. Several games later, I've come to realize that she _does_ need skill to play. She's probably mid-range in skill, but that's nothing to scoff at. Sure, she doesn't have a "counter" who can consistently win lane 7/0 in 15 minutes, but outfarming and roaming is effective against her. Just because 1 high elo person says a champion is overpowered, doesn't mean he/she/it is. If you put more time into learning how to beat her without worrying about getting tons of kills, you might get somewhere. She's just not a champion who dies in lane. There are others who are similar in that respect, so I don't see how it's a problem at all.
If Apdo says it, its prolly right. but ori is my balanced waifu hehe
: @Riot Kindred
dog shit 51% win rate imo
Zavex (NA)
: What site are you using for statistics? Na.op.gg and leagueofgraphs show completely different numbers. http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/chogath https://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/ sorted by last 7 days
http://lolalytics.com/champion/Chogath/
: Nope, he's right, only the last orb determines which sides wins, so you can fight a ranged champs in the lane phase but if you get the last orb from a melee champ you get the Darkiin form winning. You can test it in a practice game hitting dummies (they give red orbs) and then the Ranged Bot for last and you'll get Shadow Assassin.
Sounds weird.. I dont think thats how it works, I remember fighting melee champs top, then I ganked bot vs 2 ranged champs and got blue souls, but the bar didnt move at all.
: One thing I think Kayn could use is the ability to track which form is "winning"
Im pretty sure there are actually two bars but it only shows the one that is "winning".
: Please, do not buff Kayn, Do not "Ivern" him
Whats good about 2 playstyles tho? Need a tank? Go Zac/Nunu/Cho, need an assassin? Go Kha or even Shaco. Only time I see it being useful is when you first pick I guess.
: ChoGath needs nerfs, but overbuffed Cho is not nearly as game ruining as overbuffed Singed, so I guess Riot prefered to wait and see if people can adapt to new Cho and learn to counter him.
Idk Singed is kinda annoying, but Cho presses Stoneplate and then point and click deletes a carry.. xd
dominusx (EUNE)
: oh he was nerfed? xD i thought this was his release state and i was expecting buffs ahah. gotta start playing the game again.
He was nerfed on pbe before release for some reason from what I can remember
Rioter Comments
: lol there is plenty of counter play. land any good crowd control and most adc's are dead in the water. if you're not a bursty mage, a bruiser with a lot of cc, or assassin then you shouldn't be 1v1'ing an adc anyway.
Oh ye the "counterplay" for when a champ doesnt actually have any.. cc hehe
: ADCs have actually had quite a rough time in season 7 since so many champions can easily blow them up. It requires a lot of teamwork and a good support to get an ADC ahead unless there is a really uneven skill match up. Vision, the ability to cs, knowing when to freeze/push, follow macros all goes into it as well.
Problem is that theres no counterplay to right clicks, which feels pretty dumb when crit builds are strong like right now.
: chip you are wise enough to know any champ that someone feels out classes them or beats them or find anti fun is a target of hate so no matter which champ it is they will cry about it
Or a champ that is in every game, played by everyone, and still wins. Shes just broken idk what to tell u lel
: nerf damage across the board
Except assassin overlords* hehe
: I feel like those Kayn missions are just poorly thought out...
Well the the "Kayin missions" should probably have something to do with playing Kayn tho.
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Penns

Level 30 (EUW)
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