: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 13
Hello Scruffy, Can i ask how's the vgu poll coming along? Thank you!
AhernfVy (NA)
: Too many champions have the counterplay of "just don't be that champion vs them" now
The argument May be right, but the examples are poor. Even in the thoughtest matchups, you can Just farm and watch for his grab. Udyr is a great duelist, and if he itemizes good, you can zoom in and out to wear morde off. You,'re faster than him, you got a stun on a relatively short cd. You can wait for ganks etc. Not every matchup should be a mindless stomp. Sometimes you Just have to sit back and wait, build up your items etc. Of the morde doesn't get any kills, he'll be manageable. Teemo is the same, you'll give up some farm, but if you build defensive, and wait for ganks, he'll be manageable. From a skarner top.
5050BS (NA)
: Ya Shen is the correct way and all the others are bugs.
> [{quoted}](name=5050BS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eEvgHWUE,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-12-09T22:02:37.822+0000) > > Ya Shen is the correct way and all the others are bugs. Amen
: Can Presence of Mind give Shen 20 energy (up to +100) to match his doubled energy pool and costs?
BigFBear (EUW)
: The group of Juggernauts can even be sepperated again into two sub-groups. We have a very immobile group of Juggs which are called "Raid Bosses". They pull their enemys to them (Darius/Illaoi) or nail down their enemys with devastating slows or arenas (Nasus/Yorick/Mordekaiser/etc.) and we have those mobile Juggs which are called "Freight Trains" who run or charge into their enemies and are focused on Autoattacks (Voli/Shyvana/Udyr/Trundle/Garen/Olaf was also one of them). Idk if the term "Freight Train" is official but the User DragonShea made an an superb thread on boards 2 years ago defining those terms, which i recommend to read: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/5Lj6oXPe-long-post-what-are-juggernauts-an-introduction-to-the-class-and-each-champion > "Juggernauts are the titans of the rift, capable to dealing colossal amounts of damage while also being hard to kill due to their durability and sustain, making them powerful frontliners that excel in the thick of things. Due to their ability to both deal and take a lot of damage, people will often be forced to between bursting a juggernaut down fast or risk having them run rampant and winning teamfights. Juggernauts are further divided into two groups. Freight trains, who in a burst of speed, will charge at their target and chip away of their health at an alarming rate with rapid attacks. And Raid bosses, who lack the means to sprint but are a slow moving beast that will kill nearly anyone that comes too close to them or is out of position." **Traits both share:** - High damage and tankiness. - Sustain of various degrees. - Predictable/highly telegraphed gameplay. - Vulnerable to kiting. **Exclusive to Freight trains:** - AA and AS focused (Garen is the exception but he deals rapid damage with his Spin) - Can gain a burst of MS to mitigate their weakness to kite. - Most have decent AoE damage or are powerful single target fighters/duelists. - Better at engaging/ganking and can even get past the backline to to maul down the ADC. **Exclusive to Raid Bosses:** - Some ranged abilities. - Some utility (can peel decently). - Conditional damage. Once they have fulfilled that condition, their damage skyrockets. - Better CC than Freight Trains.
> [{quoted}](name=BigFBear,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d1OTzFIx,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-12-06T01:38:23.184+0000) > > The group of Juggernauts can even be sepperated again into two sub-groups. > We have a very immobile group of Juggs which are called "Raid Bosses". They pull their enemys to them (Darius/Illaoi) or nail down their enemys with devastating slows or arenas (Nasus/Yorick/Mordekaiser/etc.) > and we have those mobile Juggs which are called "Freight Trains" who run or charge into their enemies and are focused on Autoattacks (Voli/Shyvana/Udyr/Trundle/Garen/Olaf was also one of them). > > Idk if the term "Freight Train" is official but the User DragonShea made an an superb thread on boards 2 years ago defining those terms, which i recommend to read: > > https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/5Lj6oXPe-long-post-what-are-juggernauts-an-introduction-to-the-class-and-each-champion > > **Traits both share:** > > - High damage and tankiness. > - Sustain of various degrees. > - Predictable/highly telegraphed gameplay. > - Vulnerable to kiting. > > **Exclusive to Freight trains:** > > - AA and AS focused (Garen is the exception but he deals rapid damage with his Spin) > - Can gain a burst of MS to mitigate their weakness to kite. > - Most have decent AoE damage or are powerful single target fighters/duelists. > - Better at engaging/ganking and can even get past the backline to to maul down the ADC. > > **Exclusive to Raid Bosses:** > > - Some ranged abilities. > - Some utility (can peel decently). > - Conditional damage. Once they have fulfilled that condition, their damage skyrockets. > - Better CC than Freight Trains. you forgot {{champion:72}} :(
Arammus (EUW)
: wanna know why i love having a skarner on either side?
ironically, his passive is the most hated feature about skarner :p But thanks for your love <3
: Too many champions are left in really awful states because they were OP at a certain time.
Rioter Comments
: Rioters put more than you'd think into making these skins. So cut them a break guys
{{champion:72}} {{champion:101}} more than 4.5 years since the last skin is quite a break if you ask me, especially when yasuo gets 2 in a year, and kai sa 6
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Looking at early data it looks like it could be on the strong side for some champs at least. Statistically its most powerful users seem to be juggernauts primarily so far with Garen, Yorick, Skarner, Voli, Morde five of the top six users if you look at raw win rate (Aurelion Sol's the other, though that could be small sample size being misleading). Yorick and Voli do have comparable win rates with other keystones for what it's worth though.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=tbXutytq,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-11-22T18:05:39.379+0000) > > Looking at early data it looks like it could be on the strong side for some champs at least. Statistically its most powerful users seem to be juggernauts primarily so far with Garen, Yorick, Skarner, Voli, Morde five of the top six users if you look at raw win rate (Aurelion Sol's the other, though that could be small sample size being misleading). Yorick and Voli do have comparable win rates with other keystones for what it's worth though. Will the rune or the champions be looked at? not a fan of having skarner nerfed
: > [{quoted}](name=Blue Shift,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BzVXEohZ,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-11-20T13:10:39.441+0000) >The current list of juggernauts are {{champion:266}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:240}} {{champion:48}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:77}} {{champion:83}} {{champion:106}} ?????
> [{quoted}](name=ZackTheWaffleMan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BzVXEohZ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-11-20T19:03:28.982+0000) > > {{champion:240}} {{champion:48}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:77}} {{champion:83}} {{champion:106}} ????? skarner is something between a tank and a juggernaut, he's in a weird spot rn
Quáx (NA)
: Favorite thing from season 9?
Herethicc (EUW)
: I was thinking about it before going to sleep today: Hey i got a dope skin on skarner earlier but he needs work, i can't play him, he ain't that much fun as other champs i'm playing. What would be cool on him? I come with the idea that his passive should instead be something like Aatrox's current one, a lot of bonus dmg on the next auto that also poisons on a cd (refresh when hitting E), and uses the sting for attack animation. Move his "old" passive attackspeed to his "new" Q i guess, and "old" passive movespeed to his "new" W.
> [{quoted}](name=Herethicc,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8elgdAJs,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-18T03:12:58.115+0000) > > I was thinking about it before going to sleep today: Hey i got a dope skin on skarner earlier but he needs work, i can't play him, he ain't that much fun as other champs i'm playing. What would be cool on him? > > I come with the idea that his passive should instead be something like Aatrox's current one, a lot of bonus dmg on the next auto that also poisons on a cd (refresh when hitting E), and uses the sting for attack animation. Move his "old" passive attackspeed to his "new" Q i guess, and "old" passive movespeed to his "new" W. Venomous melee charachter was a concept i wanted skarner to fit into. It would be nice and simple actually, wouldn't mind to dig It more =). However riot is hard stuck at giving him a morde/Sion vgu
pwc2016 (NA)
: I think Skarner just isn't that well defined as a champion. There's only 2 things you need to know about him: 1) Dodge his R, it'll kill you 2) Don't fight him super close to spires But that's his core gameplay. He has no nuance. He's practically a walking R button, and a worse Malzahar. But you can't buff R, because it'll be OP, and nerfing it won't change how good or bad it is because the damage is negligible anyways. I don't see anything but a full rework fixing this champ. I've played so much jungle and literally have no idea wtf his Q, W, and E do because they're totally irrelevant to his kit. Akali may be broken, but her abilities work so well in conjunction with each other, while Skarner's kit seems to be, yeah, his Q does something, his W does something else, and his E also does...something, but it doesn't translate into a smooth or satsifying gameplay experience. Could they buff spires? Probably not, or Skarner could be the best 1 v 1 champ in the jungle roster. Could they buff R? Probably not. A rework is what this champ needs.
> [{quoted}](name=pwc2016,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8elgdAJs,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-17T22:34:55.561+0000) > > I think Skarner just isn't that well defined as a champion. There's only 2 things you need to know about him: > > 1) Dodge his R, it'll kill you > 2) Don't fight him super close to spires > > But that's his core gameplay. He has no nuance. He's practically a walking R button, and a worse Malzahar. > But you can't buff R, because it'll be OP, and nerfing it won't change how good or bad it is because the damage is negligible anyways. > > I don't see anything but a full rework fixing this champ. I've played so much jungle and literally have no idea wtf his Q, W, and E do because they're totally irrelevant to his kit. Akali may be broken, but her abilities work so well in conjunction with each other, while Skarner's kit seems to be, yeah, his Q does something, his W does something else, and his E also does...something, but it doesn't translate into a smooth or satsifying gameplay experience. > > Could they buff spires? Probably not, or Skarner could be the best 1 v 1 champ in the jungle roster. > Could they buff R? Probably not. > > A rework is what this champ needs. agreed, he's really forgiving right now, and simply lacks agency compared to the more recent releases. buffing his R would only make him better as a pick tank tho, further bottlenecking him into that boring playstyle, rather than making him generally op. His E is the only good thing that came out of the spires rework, being able to stun on one aa really allows him to fare against the most mobile champs, and mobility is allover the places nowadays. agreed on the spires. being the best 1v1 is not the problem tho, since if not him, another champion could be the best duelist. the problem is when you have no options to fight back such champion, and with skarner that'd be the case in his spires. buffing R wouldn' solve much , since other than E, it's his best designed ability, and it would only deepen the problem. glad we agree on everything, let's hope our purple boy will get some attention =)
Rioter Comments
Shahamut (NA)
: New preseason, new Skarner? (Long Post)
Very detailed post, the rework is a good compromise of live skarner gameplay, with some more modern twists!
: I went looking through the internet for the best Visual Updates I could find
so this is all about champions that visually are completely fine, with the exception of anivia
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 15
Hey Meddler! About the rework paragraph, how would you feel about Skarner's case? interestfrom new players vs interets from older ones? thank you!
: Don't get your hopes up that the skin will turn out as something special just because of a long waiting time. Urgot waited **over 6 years** for a new skin and in the end, we got High Noon Urgot. Which is ok, but definitely not something special. He didn't even get a bit of screentime in the animated trailer they made for this new take of the High Noon skins. Soooo.... really, don't expect them to get something unique here.
> [{quoted}](name=Chembaron Yamada,realm=EUW,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=4st7fadp,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-13T19:33:43.271+0000) > > Don't get your hopes up that the skin will turn out as something special just because of a long waiting time. > > Urgot waited **over 6 years** for a new skin and in the end, we got High Noon Urgot. Which is ok, but definitely not something special. He didn't even get a bit of screentime in the animated trailer they made for this new take of the High Noon skins. Soooo.... really, don't expect them to get something unique here. lowkey i do agree with you, afer all riot measures stuff in profit, and despite waiting that long, to them it might not matter, just look at ivern. however i still hope all this wait to be worth. man 6 years is alot, imagine going through that! however high noon is a cool skin, and definitely fitting of urgot =)
: Participation Award Skarner and Xerath 520 RP skins that do nothing but add a flag in their hand that says "You Tried"
> [{quoted}](name=Jimmy Rustles,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=4st7fadp,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-13T18:48:03.816+0000) > > Participation Award Skarner and Xerath > > 520 RP skins that do nothing but add a flag in their hand that says "You Tried" Rito be like: "good job guys, wait is no more!" on the brighter side, those could be the first 520 rp skins in a long time!
: > hose Who's\* > clebrate Celebrate\*
> [{quoted}](name=Yasashi Kokoro,realm=EUW,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=4st7fadp,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-13T18:42:58.769+0000) > > Who's\* > > Celebrate\* there's an edit i made right after posting the thread, at the beginning of the thread
Rioter Comments
: Anybody worried about where all the bot accounts will play once Twisted Treeline is gone?
Would be comical if they all went to tft. It's Just an idle game anyways
: This finals was an amalgamation of everything that's wrong with season 9.
: Junglers
there was skarner a while back, until riot decided to buff leesin again because whynot
Dystna (NA)
: Ornn Skin Idea
now way riot will ignore ornn this snowdown, and that's actually fitting, hopefully it goes through
: Which of the 2 champions who need to be in the VGU list the "most" after Fiddlesticks and Volibear?
Hello! 900k skarner main. My first vote would be for {{champion:72}}. back to late s3 i fell in love with his playstyle of running down, stick and grind people, or drag them wit ult. However he's like the most neglected champion in league rn. He went through 3 reworks, handed poorly except for the crystal venom one. And finally, the spires put a final blow. With the spires taking unjustly so much power, and his ult having the stigma of being unbalanceable, his kit is quickly falling off: Skarner thrived taking advantage of players' misplays, but as new releases gets so much tools to achieve their goals and play around their weaknesses, Skarner keeps less and less agency, to the point building ad is not anymore as efficient, and he has to build asa tanky support, in order to have his team to cover his downsides, as you saw in proplay. And even there, ontop of that playstyle being boring, and not what skarner players want, he gets outperformed by junglers that need less setup and infrastructure than him. That being said, a vgu: - is the only way riot finally will put the proper efforts to understand what skarner is rn, and what he needs to be, what we want him to be; - skarner doesn't fill his theme of being a giant crystal scorpion. He this dude in a scorpion suit that doesn't do anything particularly scorpion-y (except of E and crit anim) and he doesn't feel much that he has crystal magic. He could be so much more than what he is now, just look at todays vgus and new champs! He could be this giant predatory crystal scorpion, running you down, and manipulating crystals to actually be his tools to succeed. he could swing his massive claws, use them to grasp, and his stinger could be far more menacing and inject actual venom; he could spawn solid crystals near him and make this crystal realm to fight in. So much can be done; - gameplay wise, it'll finally set a direction for skarner: skarner versatility build wise has always been a strong point for his playerbase: he could be a tank, bruiser, ap bruiser. he can literally work with almost any item, and any rune. But right now this is also what keeps him from having a successful kit: leaving the strenght of a tank, and focusing to a more damage carry niche may help skarner to finally claim his place on the rift. It could also be a way some more skilltest, since he lacks that. - he'll finally be eligible of skins, since it's more than 4.5 years that he's waiting for one
Moody P (NA)
: How is Kennen not a t1 VGU candidate
I'd rather have {{champion:72}} spires to be reworked first, so he can be an actual champion
DeusVult (NA)
: Seeing the quality of all the most recent skins makes me sad for the champs that I play
: Least Broken Champ
{{champion:101}}
: I will miss Shojin literally just for one thing
shojin skarner got excellent 1v1, but it's too vulnerable to being jumped on =/
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 25
Will {{champion:72}} be looked at during preseason: where do you think he will land? especially jungle? Main concern are the dragons and his spires: with dragons getting more important, skarner's spires will be even more important to setup objectives, so they'll be contested more, and they're already easily contestable. Also added terrain restricts the spires area, and allow the ever increasing mobile champions to outplay him more, and he already struggles against them Yesterday's jungle tweaks sure have improved his situation, however the delay on his 6 might hurt him, but that can be offset by the new conq which is good on him. Also aftershock tweaks benefit his tankier builds. Nimbus Cloak: if NC becomes too good on skarner, will he nerfed, or the rune will? Toplane skarner: even if that's an offrole, you think he'll benefit from increased exp by getting to 6 earlier? this and the rune changes might improve his toplane position. Where spires in the alcoves ever discussed? idk how much would the add, but there seems enough space to play around them. Thank you
Sancre (EUW)
: Why do I feel Cloud Dragon got ditched again?
now that's an achievement, imagine having something worse than skarner spires
: Preseason: Rise of the Elements on PBE!
will {{champion:72}} be monitored during preseason? reaching 6 is really important to him, and the delay from jungle exp nerfs might hurt him more. Also objectives are becoming more important, and so he'll depend even more from his spires. Thank you
CurS1VE (NA)
: Wait...Ashe has a 55% WR???
Riot: "{{champion:72}} melee permaslow on a champ with no gapclosers is toxic" Also Riot: "let's buff {{champion:22}} ranged permaslow!"
: Riot should learn from Hi-Rez about skins (+list of champions with 1000+ days break)
: Some kits that could use updates this year
thanks for not forgetti us {{champion:72}} main =)
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 18
Hello! how do you think will preseason changes impact skarner and his spires? For exmaple, were there considered spires in the Alcoves, to try and give some help to lane skarner? More walls from mountain drake will mean less usrface to play into them, and even less agency from dashes. Thank you.
: Illaoi is like the least known champion in the game.
: Riot : "Aatrox is too unhealthy we have to keep nerfing him after we buff him"
Riot: Skarner permaslow was unhealthy and needed to be removed. Also Riot: let's buff ashe's ranged permaslow
Shahamut (NA)
: They are going to be changing up SR again next preseason as well
> [{quoted}](name=Shahamut,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=96EejuhN,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2019-10-12T12:20:39.807+0000) > > They are going to be changing up SR again next preseason as well inb4 skarner becomes actually viable, will they nerf him, or will they just keep to ignore him?
: Next up we should just get rid of the whole champion. Garen, not Skarner.
> [{quoted}](name=RegardsKitty,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=96EejuhN,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-10-11T17:50:39.283+0000) > > Next up we should just get rid of the whole champion. > > Garen, not Skarner. Hardly going to happen, but i think nerfs are sure coming
: I hate Skarner's spires mini-game almost as much as I hate Illaoi's whack-a-mole mini-game.
> [{quoted}](name=Freljnord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=96EejuhN,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2019-10-11T17:29:52.999+0000) > > I hate Skarner's spires mini-game almost as much as I hate Illaoi's whack-a-mole mini-game. If you think of It, at least illaoi's whack a mole minigame can happen also outside the jungle =p
Jesi Oni (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Predatorator,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=96EejuhN,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-10-10T17:53:56.949+0000) > > inb4 it's an android card game He will generate token cards in this game that will be giving 1mana crystal~ spires.
> [{quoted}](name=Jesi Oni,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=96EejuhN,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-11T07:51:11.447+0000) > > He will generate token cards in this game that will be giving 1mana crystal~ spires. i can't keep myself from the excitement.
ZaFishbone (EUNE)
: Considering how different current league is compared to old league, I'd say LoL has gradually become LoL 2 already.
> [{quoted}](name=ZaFishbone,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=96EejuhN,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-10-11T07:48:09.035+0000) > > Considering how different current league is compared to old league, I'd say LoL has gradually become LoL 2 already. that's true, in the last year or two they almost completely overthrew their supposed "healthy gameplay principles"
GigglesO (NA)
: Now everyone is the villian. https://i.imgur.com/A2hlld2.png[]
> [{quoted}](name=GigglesO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=96EejuhN,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-10-11T04:20:56.752+0000) > > Now everyone is the villian. > > https://i.imgur.com/A2hlld2.png[] *Giggles*
: Skarner is probably in line for more work than Garen is. Garen's kit had the benefit that it really was solid, just that the villain mechanic was extraneous. You could tweak Garen and keep him roughly healthy. Skarner's a bit different in that he's never really felt like a sort of crystal scorpion besides his ult. He's supposed to be a juggernaut but with skills that liken him more to being a tank-ish/diver character who wants to grab high-value targets then get out. He's also got some strong abilities (I think Q is super underrated) which make him a decent duelist yet never enough to compete with others. I think Skarner should be in line for a minor VGU. Maybe a bit more complex than say Ezreal but not to the caliber or Sion or Yorick.
> [{quoted}](name=CaptainMårvelous,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=96EejuhN,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-10-11T02:47:35.554+0000) > > Skarner is probably in line for more work than Garen is. Garen's kit had the benefit that it really was solid, just that the villain mechanic was extraneous. You could tweak Garen and keep him roughly healthy. > > Skarner's a bit different in that he's never really felt like a sort of crystal scorpion besides his ult. He's supposed to be a juggernaut but with skills that liken him more to being a tank-ish/diver character who wants to grab high-value targets then get out. He's also got some strong abilities (I think Q is super underrated) which make him a decent duelist yet never enough to compete with others. > > I think Skarner should be in line for a minor VGU. Maybe a bit more complex than say Ezreal but not to the caliber or Sion or Yorick. I agree on what you said, ultimately only a vgu can solve skarner's problems, and you can't make a vgu in a day for sure. On the other hand he's not in the five next releases, which cover a good amount of time. But i think a minor update in the while can go a long way to skarner. Some Champions in line for a vgu got their class updates reverted, and that left them in a far better situation.
: Put that much damage on ANY champion is unfair. idc if its an assassin or a juggernaut
> [{quoted}](name=invisiblecat1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=96EejuhN,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2019-10-11T00:46:14.389+0000) > > Put that much damage on ANY champion is unfair. > idc if its an assassin or a juggernaut That's not entirely true, cho gath can have it increased, and i don't see much complaint about it
: When Skarner finally gets a rework that makes him at least a little bit viable without him being overpowered. Aka half past never.
> [{quoted}](name=ProExpertKing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=96EejuhN,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-10-10T22:43:28.015+0000) > > When Skarner finally gets a rework that makes him at least a little bit viable without him being overpowered. > > Aka half past never. Aka a vgu =)
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Predatorator

Level 120 (EUW)
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