: most tanks have resist scaling somewhere in there kit to double or triple or quadruple dip into defensive items. a lot of bruisers have something similar some juggernauts have some health scaling by way of healing but otherwise they only get what they buy
That's, however, a trade-off for Juggernaut's damage output. They simply cannot have that damage while being equally tanky as to a true tank.
: And Deathcap is the most expensive item in the game (3800), has an awful build path (NLR, Blasting Wand, Amp Tome), _and_ a high combine cost (1265, 1700 if you can't slot in an Amp Tome which is really common).
Deathcap needs to become a bit cheaper, true - or have a baby item to build out of, like Hexdrinker into Maw. The build path is just horrendous for the point in the game where you're supposed to get it. As a third or fourth item, you simply don't have the slots for a three-component item.
: Yeah, and we have decision-making in ADC builds. RFC is taken for extra range. Shiv is taken for burst damage and waveclear. Hurricane is taken for multi-target damage and waveclear. PD is taken for damage reduction and movement speed. The problem with Shiv/RFC is that RFC specifically is too good. Having extra range on an auto is very strong as a 3rd/4th item as an ADC is scaling later into the game. So the ADC need to have another Zeal item. It's not PD, because we're in a meta where ADCs have a pretty decent amount of protection from their supports already. So then you have either Shiv or Hurricane, and with Hurricane nerfed and Shiv synergizing with RFC, Shiv is the better choice as the other Zeal item. I think some of the problem also lies in the fact that Shiv and Hurricane are too strategically close to each other, but even considering that, plenty of ADCs still build Hurricane.
Another aspect for ADCs wanting two Zeal upgrades is in how cheap these things actually are, especially given their power. Have them at 3k each, possibly with a bit of stat adjustment, and I think we'd see way less ADCs rushing IE into two Zeal upgrades. Heck, IE into 2 Zeal upgrades has become one of the fastest 3-item spikes of a all gold-getting lanes, at 8.6k! For comparison, AP assassins and mages' three-item spike costs 8.7k to 9.4k (three out of {{item:3165}} {{item:3102}} {{item:3157}} {{item:3151}} {{item:3285}} {{item:3030}} {{item:3146}} {{item:3100}} {{item:3003}} {{item:3027}} ) and doesn't include their big multiplier item, whereas AD assassins' spike costs 8.8k (Duskblade Ghostblade Cleaver).
Sohleks (NA)
: And yet at the same time they have those build options they hardly even want them right now as their core adc itemization is so strong. I find the 80% crit with 3 slot build so so boring choice wise even though its effect is really nice but choice wise at that point there is no more room if you need a lifesteal item and the penetration item and shoes. I remember a few years ago they stopped at like 50 or 55% crit and were somehow content at that and building toward 100% crit was more of a fringe thing. I feel like itemization changes since the class reworks somehow totally killed variety. Especially for AP. Build path for tanks are overly obvious too (lean on ninja tabis as much as possible and weep once it gets to the point you need real armor items that'll quickly get % pen'd) Fk. Move ninja tabis power to real armor items already for a net gain late game.
The main issue with ADC items directly, at the moment, lies in the fact that all Zeal upgrades are way too cheap. This allows ADCs to have a comparably timed 2-item spike to mages: - IE + Zeal upgrade: 6k gold - Morellonomicon + Luden's/Liandry's/Banshee's/Zhonya's: 6.1k/6k/5.9k/5.8k gold. Make Zeal upgrades 3k total (possibly with adjusted stats), raise Infinity Edge and Essence Reaver by 100 gold. That would solve a lot of the issues. And potentially give ER synergy with IE by having it give full CdR if the user has both a completed ER and IE. Oh, and potentially make Deathcap cheaper.
: Let's pick two champions as an example: [Twitch](http://champion.gg/champion/Twitch/ADC) typically runs Blade of the Ruined King, Berserker's Greaves, Runaan's Hurricane, Infinity Edge, Statikk Shiv and Guardian Angel. This build costs 3400 + 1100 + 2600 + 3400 + 2600 + 2400 = **15500** total gold. [Syndra](http://champion.gg/champion/Syndra/Middle?league=) typically runs Morellonomicon, Sorcerer's Shoes, Luden's Echo, Void Staff, Rabadon's Deathcap and Zhonya's Hourglass. This build costs 2900 + 1100 + 3200 + 2650 + 3800 + 2900 = **16550** total gold. Not counting elixirs here because they all cost 500g and can be purchased multiple times. These builds do vary from champion to champion, but tend to have the most commonly purchased items among them as well. In the example taken, a full build for a mage costs 1k gold _more_ than a full build for a marksman. Assuming these are typical builds, it is effectively true to say that AD has become cheaper than AP, or at least has gone down to a comparable price. Just to labor the point a little more, AD builds are not actually more expensive than tanky builds by that much either: to take [Poppy](http://champion.gg/champion/Janna/Support?league=) as an example, she typically runs Ninja Tabi, Sunfire Cape, Iceborn Gauntlet, Spirit Visage, Thornmail and Locket of the Iron Solari. This build costs 1100 + 2900 + 2700 + 2800 + 2900 + 2200 = **14600** gold, with only a 900 gold difference from the above AD build. This is also _after_ a long series of adjustments to tanky items that has reduced both their cost and their stats significantly. Adding two more examples to the list with Zed and Katarina, just to compare with assassins as well: * [Zed](http://champion.gg/champion/Zed/Middle?league=) typically runs Duskblade of Draktharr, Mercury's Treads, Youmuu's Ghostblade, The Black Cleaver, Guardian Angel and Maw of Malmortius. This build costs 2900 + 1100 + 2900 + 3000 + 2400 + 3250 = **15550** gold. This is comparable in cost to Twitch's build, if a smidge more expensive. * [Katarina](http://champion.gg/champion/Katarina/Middle?league=) typically runs Hextech Gunblade, Sorcerer's Shoes, Zhonya's Hourglass, Void Staff, Liandry's Torment and Rabadon's Deathcap. This build costs 3400 + 1100 + 2900 + 2650 + 3100 + 3800 = **16950** gold, in league with Syndra's build and distinctly above Twitch and Zed's build costs. Forming a definitive opinion on this would likely require comparing more builds, but at a glance this is pretty worrying, because it suggests that AD has not only decreased enough in cost to be comparable to AP, but may have become even cheaper. In the case of assassins, two champions can be designed to spike at mid game, and one can still scale faster than the other simply because they're AD and the other is AP. In the case of marksmen, who are meant to be the most gold-dependent and farm-heavy class in the game, it is actually possible for them to reach full build _before_ the mage, and only slightly after the tank (this is assuming everyone gets equal gold, which is doubtful, considering marksmen are given priority on farm). Effectively, **champions who are meant to spike sooner and fall off later are liable to get outpaced by champions who not only scale much harder with items, but can also access those items earlier on**. In order for this to change, Riot either needs to bump up the cost of some AD items (attack speed + crit items are notoriously cheap, for example), or alternatively put affected classes on the same scaling as everyone else. Personally, I'd be in favor of having every class operate on equal revenue and build costs, but then scaling would need to be done on a per-champion basis, rather than just handed out arbitrarily more to some classes over others.
However, that Twitch build, in contrast to Syndra's build: - has no penetration. - has double AS items (which, as you say, are too cheap across the board) - has rather limited Lifesteal (12%) - features 3 ADC items that are on the cheap side (2 zeal items + Guardian Angel at 2400) - has entirely too much attack speed. I recognized that that build is champion.gg's most common Twitch build. But you should also notice the overall winrate of it - 46.65%, almost 7% below Twitch's average. On Lolalytics, the winrate of the build is higher, exceeding 70%. However, Twitch is almost the only ADC that can get away with said build, due to his two steroids and his high range (which allows him to take Fervor of Battle). ---- I agree with you that they could increase the cost of the completed Zeal items to 2900-3000 gold (but leave Zeal at 1200). And possibly lower Deathcap's cost by 200-300 gold.
: I don't mind having a surpluss of Cdr options as much as lacking items without it.
The reason why all three MR/HP items have CdR is so that the choice between them is not influenced by the presence or absence of CdR. That means that a tank player can say: OK, I need MR. Do I and my team have enough magic damage for it to matter? {{item:3001}} Do I have healing I want amplified? {{item:3065}} Or do I need to survive better against a contínous magic damage dealer like {{champion:68}} ? {{item:3194}} EDIT: Also, for a pure tank, CdR options: {{item:3110}} {{item:3025}} {{item:3109}} {{item:3800}} {{item:3083}} {{item:3001}} {{item:3194}} {{item:3065}}
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 11
So, the Vayne changes return come 7.18 PBE? Good to hear, I liked the direction of them (focusing her power a bit more towards killing tanks rather than squishies). For the three-week rotation, as long as you use that extra week...I'd hate to have a week of Fridge GIFs in regard to the PBE. Also, are there any plans to touch Kalista and Tristana in 7.18? EDIT: Also, Elise.
penguin (NA)
: I think cost nerf by 75 is fine, I think if they're all equal than tank junglers still don't see much play due to importance of early game pressure/invasion in the jungle. I just think tanks have some OP items (cough, Righteous Glory cough) that could be tuned down additionally.
tieger05 (OCE)
: Vayne's buff was ridiculously unneccessary.
If it was purely a buff, you'd be correct in its assessment of being unnecessary. However, the projected Vayne changes on the PBE are not pure buffs. Rather, they are changes that target the currently dominant build (Shiv/IE), that relies on Q's bonus damage critting as a tool to explode squishies. With that gone, Riot is free to balance Vayne in a more anti-tank direction, with buffs to Silver Bolt's damage (but nerfs to its minimum damage, again making it less efficient against squishies) and the healing based on target's health during Final Hour. Now, you could make an argument that 20% of target's health could be a bit overtuned for the healing...
penguin (NA)
: > yet maokai dont max E at all even in jungle Yes, and that case was specifically nerfed as it was changed to have level-up incentives. That means the ability is strictly worse when maxed last, but more options are available for Maokai's skill order. > the issue isnt his E .. the issue is tanks in the jungle are strong due to the cinderhulk buffs Cinderhulk was nerfed by 75g as well. I wouldn't disagree with the idea that we were too light on jungle tanks though, but that's just my personal opinion :p
> I wouldn't disagree with the idea that we were too light on jungle tanks though, but that's just my personal opinion :p Would you mind elaborating what you would have done instead/in addition? Increasing Cinderhulk's cost back to 2625, like all other jungle items?
: Beta, Season 1, Season 2. Yeah, ADCs weren't really a factor until 20 minutes unless they got fed early. Apparently you weren't there. _________ Hell, bot lane only jungle attention at the time because there was a potential 2 kills, not because you want your ADC to get ahead since it hardly mattered until 20+ minutes.
S2 was all about the ADCs that could circumvent the need for longer ramp-up - {{champion:42}} {{champion:81}} {{champion:104}} {{champion:67}} (back when she was released and utterly broken).
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 4
Hello Meddler, since this was quite a bit of discussion recently: What do you think about the current state of the jungle? Especially the early parts, with them superleashes and the massive XP gain from Raptors. Is there any chance that XP gain gets reduce, for instance by making the small Raptors spawn at level 1?
Ydg (EUW)
: Hey isn't the new storm too strong on Assassin/All in like Yasuo/Riven wich can proc it super-super easily? Most of the champ which have a A.A. reset + spell could abuse this right?
Maybe. Although I'd want to wait for the full reveal of everything to judge that.
Sohleks (NA)
: Or simply when it's fully aged something neater happens than the last bit of 4 ap & 20 health and mana. It does hit 100 ap when fully stacked btw, it starts at 60 ap but they raised the growth to 4 ap per stack RoA buffs isn't exactly what I had in mind though. It's not as frequent as morellos but currently has its uses. Maybe could have something though.
Hmm, could've sworn they had nerfed RoA back to 80 at full stacks... But yeah, something nice there would be good as well.
Sohleks (NA)
: AP items need a refresh and to be less resident sleeper at least. Morellos first, durability second, void third and deathcap last is starting to get really boring. AP builds don't have any place for real balls, they've become very curtailed choices. They need some room for edge and away from comfortable utility/cdr safety builds that are allowed to stay better for longer.
That's certainly true. For starters, maybe bring 100 AP RoA back? Or give RoA 10% CdR while building out of Fiendish Codex?
Escheton (EUW)
: It's not League of Tanks. But tanks now do have a couple of meta champs. Much like every other class has. People are just complaining because jungle and support tanks were completely unviable for months and months. Now that they are just as viable as mages and healers suddenly people don't know what to do when their enemies don't blow up in 2 seconds and they need to mind the macro.
Months? Support and Jungle **engage** tanks have been unviable, in general, for years.
Mye (NA)
: Or they could just make it so that the stoneplate bonus doesn't work on the ulti. HP-scaling on his ulti is pretty OK, what isn't is when he can pop 1 item bonus and gain 4k HP while simultaneously 1-shotting someone.
Maybe change his ult away from scaling on HP to scaling with the number of ult stacks? 8/12/16 damage per stack would work out to the same values in the end.
Kobold (NA)
: If i am reading this correctly 3 autos still proc it so nothing changed except for making it worse for over time abilities. Guess people forgot Jayce's Ranged W exists.
Jayce's W still needs a second of continued auto-attacking to apply it - unlike fire-and-forget abilities like Morg's pool or MF's Make It Rain.
: Why are the Caitlyn nerfs being changed away from her traps?
They are still nerfing Cait's traps. However, instead of targeting their CC duration, they switched focus to the Headshot bonus damage. Nothing in there about Q. At all.
: They reverted it with the newest PBE update, instead taking damage off her Q
Meddler (NA)
: Work's still being done on the client, I'm not involved much at all with that though so can't talk to details at all. No current Edge of Night plans. Cho/Nasus both being watched. Nasus probably ok, Cho might still be a bit strong, so thinking about possible nerfs, but not shipping em until needed (need a bit more time to assess 7.15 in part).
Concerning assessing 7.15: How's Zac shaping up? Did the nerfs have the desired effect, or did they even hit harder than expected? SoBe of the playtest chat was thinking that he was hit a bit hard... If that's the case, would it be plausible to put a bit of damage back into W (like, 20-80 instead of 15-75)?
: You are aware some of those damage modifiers can crit? Like Vayne's tumble
Yeah, that was my bad. Vayne's one of the few attack modifiers where the bonus damage itself can crit, as well. Changed it in the post. Wouldn't think that to be much of an issue, though - as the bonus damage can be multiplied on Live, as well. In fact, the Tumble Crit would follow the same pattern - less damaging against squishies, the same against moderate tanks.
Rioter Comments
S0BE (NA)
: {{champion:22}} is still a strong counterpick into Caitlyn in SoloQ, idk if she will be getting any attention {{champion:81}} he scales a little faster (Q charges Tear faster) and can trade a little better at early levels. {{champion:15}} not a bad idea- I've never really been a fan of the falloff damage. {{champion:36}} literally every time we buff this guy I'm super nervous. I remember the dark days of season 4 Mundo and_ I NEVER WANT TO GO BACK TO THAT_ {{champion:75}} The buffs seemed really big on paper and not that huge in game. Maybe I'm totally wrong here though. {{item:3147}} too early to say, but I'm confident that the changes themselves were good even if they end up being not enough {{champion:154}} Ugh. Now he's probably too weak. WHAT ARE WE DOING {{sticker:zombie-nunu-bummed}} {{champion:6}} I was the playtester on Urgot! IM SO HYPED that he's out! I just want to know what you guys think of him. (Honor stuff) I've never really cared for honor. I don't like that people have to be incentivized not to be shitty to each other. Why can't the standard just be we all get along? :(
Jumping on the Ezreal question: Care to share why the initial change (flat 4.5 seconds cooldown) was changed to the model that still has some downward scaling? Was there a fear that a flat cooldown would overbuff Ez, as it allows him to leave Q as a 1-point skill? EDIT: Also, concerning Zac: If he is too weak now, would it really be a problem to add a bit of damage back to W? Like, a simple +5 at all ranks (20-80 instead of 15-75)?
Meddler (NA)
: We do team reviews of upcoming balance changes to discuss intent and impact. Normally that catches stuff like this, where the group will help an individual identify why a suggested change is out of line (problem not correctly identified, impact not correctly assessed etc). In this case while those concerns were brought up we failed to act on the 'getting something different into the patch' end of things and missed that we hadn't covered that while focusing on other stuff. Our bad there, hence the rapid hotfix.
Interesting. Does scenarios like that happen often? And if they do (or even if they don't), does the responsible person have to buy the team a crate of beer? That's the rule of my workplace - if you make an annoying but ultimately harmless mistake, you have to buy a crate of beer (+ a few non-alcoholics for muslims/pregnants/drivers) for everyone.
: Spinning Axe COST: 45 MANA COOLDOWN: 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 Thats hardly a short cooldown. It doesnt get below 10 until level level 7. MF's Q has a short cooldown. Draven's is pretty average.
Except that this ability is not "cast once, then be on cooldown". Rather, it is "cast, then use till you drop it." Considering that, I think a 15-20 second cooldown is more warranted to really punish Draven for dropping an axe. EDIT: Maybe reduce the cooldown for every non-axe autoattack that hits an enemy, though.
: [Poll] Should we Remove Duskblade entirely ?
No. The item is, once it is balanced, a good addition to the game. It is almost at a balanced point, now. Main issue after 7.15 is going to be the Blackout passive and its impact on vision control. At the moment, it essentially serves as a second Sweeper trinket, but one that activates if there is actually something to sweep.
hoganftw (NA)
: Gargoyle Plate was a mistake
: > [{quoted}](name=ProfDrDeath,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cJgpN1AM,comment-id=0028,timestamp=2017-07-25T20:48:40.341+0000) > > - ADCs being required to commit a slot for a purely defensive item (Banshee's, GA, upgradeless QSS), instead of being able to go two half-defensive items and call it a day. This. And the few games you could afford to go 0 defensive, and you dealt absurd amounts of damage.
But these games were few and far in between, as anti-ADC defensive itemization was also stronger: - Frozen Heart's AS slow was 20%. - Randuin's AS slow was stronger, but on a proc chance. This meant that it hurt high AS ADCs comparatively more. - Randuin's active also applied the AS slow.
: Luden's costs more and is less stat efficient than Duskblade and Shiv, yet deals less damage
Luden's is also AoE (compared to Duskblade) and applies on abilities instead of auto-attacks like Duskblade and Shiv. Especially the latter fact is huge, as it means that Luden's has far better reliability than either of the two.
: Things You Miss About The Game But You Know Will Never Come Back?
- Force of Nature. Enough said. - Quinn being Quinn and Valor. It's not to say that I don't like her reworked kit (it is acceptable), but something about turning into a bird and murdering people is definitely missing... - ADCs being required to commit a slot for a purely defensive item (Banshee's, GA, upgradeless QSS), instead of being able to go two half-defensive items and call it a day.
: when you say you tank you mean {{champion:31}} {{champion:79}} {{champion:154}} Because no other tank see any play..Just this 3 broken champions that riot does nothing about it But hey lets nerf all tank items because this 3 champions that need nerfs abuse the items
: cho stoneplate is the only thing beyond broken to me tbh everything else is fine, especially lethality, only duskblade is broken
I wonder how they eventually going to fix that issue. Maybe have Stoneplate work as base Health? Or have Cho's ult damage stack with Feast stacks instead of bonus HP?
: Aren't Juggernauts supposed to have very little in the ways of cc? Cho has a slow, knockup, and silence in his kit.
Cho is not directly a Juggernaut. Even in that Meddler quote flying around here, they say that they want him to have a more **Juggernaut-like** damage profile. They never said he was to be a Juggernaut.
: I like the idea behind the concept, they just need to tune down his E's base or scaling.
Which is exactly what they do on the PBE. Still, for him to better in a healthy spot eventually, I think that they'll have to massively shorten the slow (or remove it entirely) for E's secondary targets.
: if team-oriented tank/support items are gonna stay this strong
Is Warmog's really a team-oriented tank item? I'd think not, unless you build it with Locket... Other than that, Locket warrants a nerf, plain and simple (item too stronk). Meanwhile, Knight's Vow is purchased, imo, because it offers tanks something they did not have access to previously - in-combat sustain. Bruisers could buy Lifesteal/Spellvamp for that purpose (and still can), but Vow's sustain effect doesn't require you (as a tank) to give up a whole item's tankiness for it. Thinking about it, if you want stronger selfish items, they cannot be utterly self-sufficient (as a single item), or offensive champions will pick them up as their only defense item. EDIT: In the end, I agree with you that League could use one or a pair of lategame tank items, in a price range of 3.2 - 3.3k gold. The issue is, how to prevent these items from being too strong too early, or being too strong when not in the context of a tank build?
LankPants (OCE)
: The Sunfire damage nerfs should be reverted. They were completely and utterly unneeded.
Wrong. Sunfire nerfs were needed for a season and a half, as the strong Sunfire Cape was one of the prime reasons Top was the tank fest it was previously.
Ralanr (NA)
: Is it really? On its own I mean. I haven't done the math.
I have. Here, for a full item ADC vs. a two Armor item tank: > A six item ADC with IE, Zeal upgrade, BT, LDR, Mercurial, Boots has some 87 MR and 30% Lifesteal and 400 AD. He deals, on average, 700 damage per attack, 840 with full effect of LDR. > > A tank with Thornmail, Dead Man's Plate and 90 base Armor (+ about 20 from runes and masteries) has 270 Armor, 180 of which is bonus (Thornmail flat damage part: 45 magic damage). Against the ADC, the tank still has about 210 Armor after LDR. > > The ADC deals 271 damage to the tank per attack, healing for 30% of that or 81 HP. > > Thornmail dealt 15% of 840 + 45 as return magic damage. Total 171 magic damage. After resistances, the ADC would have taken 91 damage. > > **Old Thornmail: 91 damage > 81 HP healed.** > > Even with 30% Lifesteal, ArPen and MR against a 2 Armor item tank, an ADC would have still taken damage on attacking said tank. > > Assuming the tank has equal Armor with new Thornmail for ease of comparison: > > With new Thornmail, the damage effect does 25 + 27 = 52 damage. After resistances, 28 damage. > > With the Grievous Wounds effect, the ADC heals for 18% of damage dealt, or 49 HP. > > **New Thornmail: 49 HP healed > 28 damage dealt.** So, old Thornmail did more to deny Lifesteal, and thus was better at its purpose of denying its user as a Lifesteal target. However, in your main post, you make a good and compelling argument why new Thornmail is actually healthier, from a gameplay perspective, than old Thornmail - old Thornmail's fatal flaw was that, while it denied huge amounts of Lifesteal, it also heavily punished low Lifesteal builds. So, in fact, yes, ADCs were killing themselves against old Thornmail, even with a balanced, fairly defensive build.
nm1010 (NA)
: It was actually hot fixed to live this morning for NA http://www.surrenderat20.net/2017/07/717-pbe-update.html#more Edit: Ranged slow wasn't removed with the hot fix, that was a weird decision.
Ranged slow being removed is probably too much of a change (potential to go wrong/bugs) for a hotfix. Number nerfs are comparatively easy.
: > [{quoted}](name=Erockandroll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XLtzLV5c,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-07-19T04:21:53.579+0000) > > In my opinion, he's probably best classified as unique. (Sorry if Unique play styles make you feel uncomfortable) > > I personally don't see his Giant damage ult as something completely denying his role as a tank. especially if it's the only real damage source on a Full Tank build. Yet, I don't see Chogath, filling the role of a Tank just from his CC alone. His primary CC is tied to a rather unreliable delayed AoE. and that's his only source of Hard CC. > > On top of that, I wouldn't call him a Juggernaut Either. The majority of his damage is in his spells, which offer more of a Burst combo than flat DPS. If anything, I would consider his kit to be that of a Mage/Tank Hybrid. (Regardless of how he actually builds) While his Disruption is not as reliable than with most tanks, he makes up for it in kill potential. riot officially classifies him as a juggernaut now. which i really dont like. and im not talking about his ult. im talking about the changes to his e. we already know that ultimates can sometimes break the rules of a champions classification. {{champion:2}} is officially considered a juggernaut depite his ult making him almost entirely immune to kiting for its duration. so for cho having a large damage ult as a tank is unusual, but on its own not too crazy to not be able to group hm in with the other tanks. im questioning the base damage he gains off his e turning him into a contineous carry threat as juggernaut with the cc of a tank at the same time. and while his cc may be telegraphed, the same is true for other tanks. {{champion:14}} its not buffs to chogath im questioning, or his ult dealing a lot of true damage, but that the entire design direction theyre going in with him is unclear.
Where do they classify him as a Juggernaut? Got a source on that? Because in the updated class/subclass list, he's under "Unique".
: > [{quoted}](name=Recons,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Pq1MAjNi,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-07-18T14:02:19.952+0000) > > Lately I have seen a lot of complains about the current state of Marksmen in the game. A lot of people claim Marksmen deal too much damage, and have too much Life Steal. In my opinion, you are not wrong, at least not entirely. To understand this we need to go back to the role of Marksmen. Working from principals -- good approach :) > **What are Marksmen?** > > Marksmen are ranged sustained damage dealers, they are supposed to deal the most damage per second when ignored, and should succumb easily to crowd-control, zoning and burst damage. They have to itemize intelligently, choosing to sacrifice Damage-Per-Second (DPS) for survivability. > > Marksmen also serve as effective siege tools, able to damage structures from afar, and are the most suitable to build armor penetration on, since they can utilize their range as a safety barrier, because armor penetration items provide no survivability stats. Agreed. > 1) Marksmen should have the most DPS when not interrupted. > > * This means Marksmen should itemize effectively with Attack Speed items. > * This also means Marksmen should not be able to deal large amounts of damage when interrupted. Agreed. I'll add on, they must scale with crit as well. A bit more of that in an [old post of mine](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/g9gwz5HM-the-future-of-itemization-if-you-havent-figured-it-out-read-this). > 2) Marksmen should be vulnerable to crowd-control, and burst. > > * This means Marksmen should not have insane sustain. Life Steal is not an ability Marksmen should have, it should be an ability Juggernauts and Fighters have. Here I'm going to have to disagree. Squishy carries who aren't marksmen rely on cooldowns (with a few exceptions, like cass and ryze). This means they can walk up, drop a full rotation, and walk back while they wait for their abilities to come up. It also means, if they're about to get blown up in a fight, they can spam all their buttons and at least contribute something. By contrast, marksmen have to constantly stay within AA range of their targets in order to maximize their damage. With very few exceptions, this also puts them within range to be hit by their target. A marksman who's at half hp when the fight starts is going to get sneezed on and die without contributing anything (again, with a few exceptions, like Ashe or Sivir). Going into fights, marksmen need to be healthy enough to use their DPS. Lifesteal allows this to happen, by healing off of creep waves or jungle camps. It's not the only way -- for example, I could imagine an item like warmogs, but it has no health threshold, and it won't heal you past [220 + 60/lvl] HP (ie, 280-1300 based on level). The same thing applies to during a fight. If an enemy mage or assassin drops a combo on a marksman as the fight begins, bringing them low, the marksman now has to back out of the fight entirely, or get blown up as soon as they try to do anything. Lifesteal allows a marksman to be useful if the attempt to burst them is unsuccessful. Again, it's not the only way, but in this case I can't think of anything quite as effective. Let's imagine a world where lifesteal doesn't exist. Because of the above two scenarios, marksman can't afford to stay in AA range for extended periods of time. Therefore, they have to be effective in shorter periods of time -- ie, they need the ability to burst. We've already established that's not how things should be, therefore, we need lifesteal. One clarification: I absolutely agree that marksmen should not have access to significant quantities of lifesteal *in lane*. Draven getting first item DD and instantly healing to full after you chunk him is beyond frustrating, and completely invalidates many poke supports. > the rest Was going to respond to this too, but I have to head out now, so I'll end here.
> One clarification: I absolutely agree that marksmen should not have access to significant quantities of lifesteal in lane. Draven getting first item DD and instantly healing to full after you chunk him is beyond frustrating, and completely invalidates many poke supports. The interesting thing about that is: Unlike most non-BotRK ADCs, Draven can afford to go for a big-ticket Lifesteal item as a first item. This is due to a combination of two things: First, his high base stats (fourth best base AD, tied for second-highest base AS) and Q's damage amplifier allow him to forego a more damage-focused item. Said damage also fuels Lifesteal. Second, having Lifesteal allows him to defend his passive's stacks more easily, as it keeps him topped-up and thus less vulnerable to being killed. If they wanted to tackle that, they could reduce his base stats a notch. Or, like Jinx, have part of Q's damage amplification scale with level.
Recons (NA)
: State of the Game - Balancing Marksmen
> 1) Marksmen should have the most DPS when not interrupted. > 2) This means Marksmen should not have insane sustain. Life Steal is not an ability Marksmen should have, it should be an ability Juggernauts and Fighters have. These two points do not work with each other. You don't really realize why Marksman have access to damage-based sustain, do you? In essence, Lifesteal is a sustain effect that only has a noticeable effect when someone is allowed to attack interruptedly. Its effect allows ADCs to dish out their DPS in a continous fight without dying to incidential AoE or non-focused damage, while retaining their weakness to burst damage (low standing health pool) and being interrupted (sustain only works if allowed to attack unhindered). Contrast Juggernauts and Fighters, who, more often than not, have damage-independent, ability-based sustain if they are sustain-based. {{champion:266}} 's W, {{champion:164}} 's W, {{champion:122}} 's Q, {{champion:86}} 's passive, {{champion:420}} 's Tentacles, {{champion:39}} 's W, {{champion:19}} 's passive are examples of it. This allows their sustain to be target-agnostic, making them equally effective against squishies and tanks. Also, their sustain being tied to abilities allows them to forego continous damage dealing - like, for example, by being melee and being forced to reposition. Furthermore, Marksman cannot afford to buy too much in the way of resistances, or their damage and thus contribution to fights suffers in a major way.
: >3) Marksmen are not Assassin's they should not be able to one-shot any one, literally anyone. Could we just stop perpetuating this statement. Until someone shows me video evidence of a marksman "one-shotting" someone I don't want to see this. I am just tired of this statement regurgitated endlessly and the mouth-breather community tirelessly repeating this as their argument against marksman. If you're going to make a claim, you have to prove it, and with replays being a part of the client now that should be very easy to do and yet there has yet to be video evidence of a marksman 'one-shotting' anyone. The real problem with the game is that most classes/champions have too much damage. Damage is just far too high across the board on all levels in the game and has been for a while now.
Something else to consider with that: If an ADC complains about getting oneshot, the rightful answer is: Buy some defense. If an assassin complains about getting oneshot... ...the rightful answer should also be: Buy some defense.
: > [{quoted}](name=HalcyonDweller,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iEYqhWqG,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-07-17T21:10:15.666+0000) > If you have math to back up the claim that it is gutted then by all means, please feel free to share it with us. The damage on thornmail was reduced to 25+10% Bonus armor from 15% Damage taken+25% Bonus armor. Assuming a base of 130 armor (with 100 of it being bonus armor) and the enemy ADC having a consistent (and I'd say reasonable) 200 AD, the original thornmail would deal 30 (15% of ADC's attack pre-armor) + 25 (25% of Bonus Armor) leading to a total of 55 Damage return per basic attack. The new thornmail deals 25 + 10 (10% of bonus armor) damage, leading to a decrease in 20 damage per auto **but** reducing healing by 40%. An attack of 200 AD against 130 Armor does 87 Damage (200*100/[100+130]). In order for the new thornmail to outdo the damage of the original thornmail, it has to prevent 20 or more healing per auto. 20/0.4 (reduced healing) = 50 damage healed per auto. 50/87 = 57% lifesteal to be worth at this low of stats. Not very good. However, at 330 Armor and 400 AD (I'll save you the boring novel of math) it's even worse, as the ADC would need over 215% lifesteal for the new thornmail to be equal.
For you, the numbers for a full item ADC against a 2-Armor item tank: > A six item ADC with IE, Zeal upgrade, BT, LDR, Mercurial, Boots has some 87 MR and 30% Lifesteal and 400 AD. He deals, on average, 700 damage per attack, 840 with full effect of LDR. > > A tank with Thornmail, Dead Man's Plate and 90 base Armor (+ about 20 from runes and masteries) has 270 Armor, 180 of which is bonus (Thornmail flat damage part: 45 magic damage). Against the ADC, the tank still has about 210 Armor after LDR. > > The ADC deals 271 damage to the tank per attack, healing for 30% of that or 81 HP. > > Thornmail dealt 15% of 840 + 45 as return magic damage. Total 171 magic damage. After resistances, the ADC would have taken 91 damage. > > 91 damage > 81 HP healed. > > Even with 30% Lifesteal, ArPen and MR against a 2 Armor item tank, an ADC would have still taken damage on attacking said tank. > > Assuming the tank has equal Armor with new Thornmail for ease of comparison: > > With new Thornmail, the damage effect does 25 + 27 = 52 damage. After resistances, 28 damage. > > With the Grievous Wounds effect, the ADC heals for 18% of damage dealt, or 49 HP. > > 49 HP healt > 28 damage dealt. Now, I don't think Thornmail's bad nowadays (actually, far from it - and it makes a good single defensive item), but they changed its purpose from an item that denies Lifesteal on its user to something more generally anti-sustain (and a bit anti-DPS).
: crit is not the problem, well to be fair it has one problem: being RNG and jhin needs to crit to get bonus ms the real problem is lethality jhin covers all of jhin's weaknesses lethality jhin allows him to have as much damage as jhin (unless late game) while dealing so much damage with spells unlike crit jhin How to fixe it? Every moment matters: base AD amplification 30%-------->0% Crit/as into AD convertion increased Q+W+E+R base damages up, ad ratios down that way, lethality jhin is more a sniper, while crit jhin is more a short range adc
: When a champ reaches 55% win rate they're monitored for nerfs
Probably, because she is constantly monitored for nerfs, but found to overall pray on the nature of solo queue to have such a high winrate there. Notice how you rarely see Janna in competitive.
: Reducing ezreal early Q cd accomplishes nothing for this one reason
With the way it was set up previously on the PBE (4.5 seconds at all levels, instead of 6.5-4.5), you could just leave Q at rank 1 and max it last (you only get a negligible damage increase, but the mana cost rises from 28 to 40).
Lupan (NA)
: Duskblade is Ridiculous
Right about...today?
Rioter Comments
: So...Chogath jungle is slowly rising to 54.77% and still growing.
They need to get rid of either the slow on E or the health scaling on R. And they definitely need to limit his synergy with Stoneplate to only count permanent health.
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ProfDrDeath

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