kile147 (NA)
: Whoops, coming into threads late is hard as is reading names. Sorry.
kile147 (NA)
: Meddler's feedback is that Vanguard is the direction they initially felt he should go, but based on his gameplay patterns (AKA how players are using/building him) he is more of a diver with utility as a vanguard.
Well, I know. Look who Meddler answered that explanation too...
: whats the point of separating marksmen and markswomen lol. does anyone even ever say markswomen?
Just in case you didn't notice: That was merely a joke - as the Marksman class had no subclasses, I simply divided by gender.
: {{champion:44}} is very much a hybrid of enchanter and warden.
Yes. However, in the interest of briefness, I left out the few hybrids.
: ...I reading half asleep until i got to the...ADC section? It was quite funny. Marksthings indeed. +1.
I was tempted to put {{champion:67}} into the things section :D
: {{champion:72}} now a diver? how?
Read Meddler's third post, he explained it quite in-depth. :)
Meddler (NA)
: Looking at Skarner at present we concluded he was playing much closer to Jarvan, Vi etc - fighters with some initiation capability who are still pretty focused on a particular target, rather than team initiation as a whole. His builds and playstyle match that, with a mixture of damage and defense. Can still see some arguments for making him Vanguard like, that's a could happen rather than something we're confident will happen though, in contrast with Evelynn. Nocturne's a best guess situation, overall we figured Assassin was the better description than Diver however. Yes on Renekton (still a Diver).
Great, thanks for the explanation. :)
Meddler (NA)
: There's a bit of that going on yeah. Nocturne's not exactly an assassin at present, though when we do see him effective it's generally with a really bursty assassin like build. Long term we expect he'll move more in that direction as a result. Ahri's certainly got assassin qualities, some of that's that there's pretty significant overlap between Burst Mages and Assassins though, with both trying to kill specific targets quickly. Adding mobility to a burst mage gets them pretty close to an assassin generally as a result (Ahri/LB/Lissandra all having some degree of assassin style flank/pick potential). Evelynn's update should make an assassin playstyle much more sensible on her (less build tanky and grind people down diver style required).
Would you mind elaborating on Skarner as well? Last I remember, he was supposed to move more into the direction of Tank-Vanguard...
SickAnto (EUW)
: Rengar now is a diver? Funny see Skarner change class for the third time.
Yeah, wondered about that, too. Thought he was supposed to be a Vanguard?
Poundman (NA)
: Dat Diver Lee Sin Doe
What else would he be?
Sukishoo (NA)
: I love how Riot left out {{champion:58}}
Damn, the croc is MIA.
  Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=AirKingNeo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5BkJ3Gst,comment-id=000500010000000200000000000100010000,timestamp=2017-05-24T01:48:03.557+0000) > > Riposte is a fairly quick ability and it is fairly hard to dodge Stopped reading tbh, 0.75 seconds is not "quick".
: Why Is BORK so special? O.o Took the time to write an in-depth explanation yesterday. Unfortunately lacks a TL;DR, so: BotRK is difficult to balance because the purpose of the item, to counter HP stacking for auto-attackers, places differing (and clashing) demands on it, as that group of users is really diverse and generally includes two groups with different needs.
: Cool :T Thanks for a good read, your analysis was solid! If I may offer one suggestion, it would help to summarize your points and connect them to a conclusion at the end. I was a little lost towards the end of it and had to re-read it a couple times to catch on to your thought process.
Yeah, good idea. Will do next time.
: Rioter thoughts on Caitlyn?
Here you go:
: keep missions out of ranked
Possibly next patch, with Headshot being changed from stacking on-hit to on-attack.
: OK this was complicated but I think I got it, are you saying that the nerfs coming for it are good because they will not break it for all classes that use it? Just the classes that abuse it?
In a way, but not breaking it - merely nerfing it. In theory, it should hit the ADCs (and Yasuo/Tryndamere) harder than it would hit the Divers and Juggers. Only Jax might be hit harder than intended to - his use of Blade is more like that of the first group, as part of an ensemble of offensive items, than the second group. If the nerfs are enough, I cannot know. But it is nerfed without touching its intended central purpose on anyone.
Khâmul (EUW)
: deleted my comment when i saw trundle/udyr/volibear were classified as juggernaut in a riot post. Yep you're right. I was just thinking about {{champion:122}}{{champion:82}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:420}}
Yeah, I understood. Those are usually the first to come to your mind.
KoKoboto (NA)
: No ! Main purpose of the item is to help deal with high health targets, everything else is is irrelevant / a nice addition.
Exactly. Anti-HP stacking is the central purpose of the item.
Khâmul (EUW)
: ***
Most of them, no. But some of the champions now classified as Juggernaut were niche or significant users of Blade in the past. Top Udyr, top Olaf, top Trundle and top Volibear come to mind, specifically - which is why I listed Juggernauts. And Shyvana (not just because I'd get to hear some from Mira otherwise...).
: No !
Might I inquire what you mean, good sir?
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=ProfDrDeath,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jfLPQtYh,comment-id=00040003,timestamp=2017-05-21T10:24:41.538+0000) > > I don't think the Hextech items are supposed to compete with each other on the same , that's why they have the diverse array of stats. Rather, their diversity is there to give everyone who wants to build Revolver during the laning phase an option that fits them later. Riot has stated themselves that hextch line was suposed to be the AP version of the Zeal items.
: I just wanna start by saying I applaud you for actually being well reasoned with your post and position. Far too long do i constantly have to dismantle the incessant claims that "mages are weak" and that" AP and mage champions suck right now" or that "AD is better than AP, AP itemisation is weak" , but you had the maturity to not fall to these trappings and instead address a legitimate issue instead. Its not that AP is weak, far from it. The stat is freakishly potent. The problem is that it is _Stale_. As it is just a "ball of stats" contest in most cases. I also admire you maturity in admiting the power of Void Staff and saying there is too much free access to CDR. --- To try and discuss the issue tho:. The problem with Hextech items i feel is they provide to much varying stats. The items are too different. As you said, too niche from one another. The Zeal items all provide the same stats, just with different numbers and effects, so it really was a choice based on what you wanted. The Hextech items are all too different from one another, with the only thing in common being an offensive actives. Most Champions aren't really gonna choose between the 3. They are gonna find one that they like and ignore the others. {{item:3030}} is only ever considered on champions who normally rush {{item:3027}} {{item:3146}} is only ever bought champions that have hybrid scalings, or have abusable single target spell damage. (and recently, now being used as a pseudo DFG burst proc. Only {{item:3152}} do i feel is actually bought for its sake, but even it is mostly only gotten on AP bruisers and mobile champions like Fizz, Ekko, Ahri and Rumble, Kennen, etc, as most AP champions like Lux, Xertah, Ziggs , Brand, have basically 0 incentive to get it ever. I guess Annie and Malzahar for ulti? Personally, I am of the opinion that Gunblade should be made more of the Phantom Dance of the group , and an actual Thunder hextech item be introduced to "take its place". --- The active could be a point and click mark that when popped via a spell would then deal bonus damage. I also feel that Grievous wounds should be moved to this item instead or {{item:3165}} , or rather, Morelonomicon should be reworked and a new item take its place. I understand the history of why Morelonomican is the AP Grevious wounds item, but given its current role in AP itemization, it simply is tacked on power and doesn't make sense. Grievous wounds should be something you itemize for specifically, not get as a byproduct of getting an item that you get for Mana and CDR. I've contemplated perhaps tying it to the {{item:3136}} line, as it would make more sense on that item, and perhaps even make it less unappealing on none dot champions.
I don't think the Hextech items are supposed to compete with each other on the same , that's why they have the diverse array of stats. Rather, their diversity is there to give everyone who wants to build Revolver during the laning phase an option that fits them later. The issue is that the oppressive strength of Morellonomicon as a 1-item spike makes everything else far less attractive.
: I strongly believe mage items now have problems and lack of variety.
Void Staff is probably going to stay like it is for now. MR number are not high enough, both as bases and on the items you can buy, to allow for bonus penetration to be used. The big issue for AP builds, right now, is Morellonomicon. It has literally everything a mage would want in a first item: It gives a really good chunk of AP, it gives 20% CdR and it virtually completely solves any mana issues. The additional Grievous Wounds effect is just icing on the cake.
: BoRK was not reworked for anyone. It was reworked so its active doesn't eat up so much of its power budget.
...allocating the freed-up power into the item's primary purpose of countering health-stacking. As its performance showed, the buffs were a bit on the strong side, and the item warrants nerfs. Riot's first intention might have been to nerf it for ranged champions, given that these are the more stand-out users (Blade buffs and Lethality nerfs changed the competitive ADC meta, both in champions picked and in item builds). However, I can imagine that a more in-depth look at the data revealed a too high general strength of the item (for melee examples: Fizz top in competitive, Yasuo/Tryndamere/Irelia/Yi/Xin in regular play).
: >These are follow up changes to those seen in an earlier update this cycle.] Unique Passive's target's current health on hit increased from 4% to 6% [VS PBE: from 4% to 6%] #[VS LIVE: from 8% to 6%] Unique Passive's Effect changed from [doubled for melee] to a flat [8%] Unique Active Minimum bonus physical damage lowered from 20 to 15 Ignorance is bliss
You must live a blissful life, then. The changes OP has are the newest PBE changes - instead of all the other stuff, only the Lifesteal is reduced to 12% from 15%.
Eedat (NA)
: @Riot this is why you don't cave and buff a new/reworked champ the patch after the changes
Except that Zac on 7.9 (EDIT: Was 6.9 before, ups) was definitely NOT fine, and warranted buffing. Sub 42%-winrates on champions that don't have a high skill/coordination floor usually indicate something is wrong. However, especially with the de-clunkification of his Q, these buffs proved to be a tad too much.
: Well the lee sin nerf seemed small at first, but..
Movement speed nerfs always have this effect.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 19
One other question: Will the changes to Caitlyn (where Headshot stacks on-attack instead of on-hit) come to the PBE soon?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 19
Would you mind sharing some thoughts on the BotRK changes on PBE? Currently, the on-hit is reduced to 6% for ranged champions there. Do you feel the item is too strong on ADCs (and damn on-hit Kennen) too early? EDIT: Also, if the issue is too early strength on ADCs, would it be reasonable to get the full 8% back for ranged on a critical strike? EDIT #2: Nevermind, I should scroll through all answers before asking questions like a dumbass...
: Close prediction on BotRK changes
Yeah, 4% would have been way too harsh a nerf...
Terchio (NA)
: Well, that was a thing, but then they removed pink wards from trinkets. I don't think they like those being so accessable.
Pink Ward Trinket had two flaws this doesn't have: - It was essentially a better Red Trinket. - It gave an unlimited amount of Vision Wards for no additional cost (and those were 125 gold back then, mind you!) This doesn't have these drawbacks - buying the pouches doesn't give you any wards, it merely gives you the ability to use the boot slot to store (and use) consumables in.
Rioter Comments
Dr Mercy (NA)
: I just want people to give it a few patches before deciding something is truly bad. It's like cooking meat, of course it's going to taste terrible if you don't wait and cook it all the way. As they're newly reworked, they're pretty much a steak you just put onto the grill.
This. Also, in response to MM's opinion on Zac in the original post: While it is true that people needed to relearn his kit (which is actually harder than learning something new, as you also need to forget the old), he was also released rather undertuned and somewhat clunky with the new Q. Now that these things have been cleaned up, he should feel much better.
: What is this odd expectation people have about thornmail
The purpose of Thornmail is to protect its user from being a Lifesteal Battery, plain and simple. Assuming its damage return works on pre-mitigation damage, to outheal merely the %-based damage return part, an ADC would need: Lifesteal = Percentage of damage x ratio of (Thorn user's Armor + 100) to (Thorn attacker's MR + 100) With current Thornmail in the above formula, a tank with 90 base Armor would need, against an AD with a balanced build (flat MR runes, IE/ZI/BG/LDR/BT/Mercurial - 30% Lifesteal and 87 MR), 183 additional bonus Armor on top of Thornmail - but merely for the scaling damage part of Thornmail to deny the entirety of the Lifesteal. This calculation does not account for the flat damage. However, the auto-attacker needs all three last items to require the tank to have even that much Armor. Without Lord Dominics, the tank would only need 83 Armor on top of Thornmail. Without Mercurial, he only needs 12.7 of Thorn's 100 Armor. And without Bloodthirster, the tank doesn't even need Thorn's own Armor! The big issue with Thornmail is that it is not necessarily its strength, but the fact that it is not worth the item slot, as it is only a 2200 gold item. And tanks are already on the low side as far as final item cost per item slot is concerned.
: Upcoming Kindred changes, looking for feedback!
Question regarding Kindred: Is there any chance to see a change in her base AS? If not, would mind sharing the thoughts behind her having average (0.625) base AS?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 16
Thought on Lethality: Could it possibly be an issue with how Lethality items are intrinsically linked to out-of-combat movement speed? After all, MS is one of the strongest stats in the game. Also, would you mind sharing current thoughts on Quinn, if there are any? Lastly, could you share what the balance process behind Sivir, Xayah and Kindred having only average base AS despite being AA-based champions?
: Not gonna lie that seems really surprising Quinn has got a really low playrate atm (0.87%) less than aatrox lol. The stuff i've been seeing toplane recently has been quite strange too e.g an ap bruiser toplane veigar.
[Looks at comment starters name.] Hmm, I wonder what might be the reason that guy sees a lot of anti-melee top laners...
: Now that Xayah has been out a few weeks Looks fairly balanced to me. Especially if you look at the match-up section - she has matches in which she succeeds more and ones that she fails in more often.
Jasiwel (NA)
: I don't think it's lackluster necessarily, but I do think that the itemization can become exceptionally redundant. Right now on Ryze, I am literally bouncing between two builds: {{item:3027}} {{item:3003}} {{item:3102}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3110}} {{item:3158}} and {{item:3027}} {{item:3003}} {{item:3110}}{{item:3165}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3020}} . And if I'm not building exactly those, then the build doesn't really deviate from those items. I mean sure, I could probably throw a {{item:3157}} or {{item:3089}} in there somewhere, but the problem is mostly that I'm building literally the same stuff every game. On ADCs and AD Bruisers, the builds are generally way more adaptive (4 different Zeal items to choose from, Hydra family, Lifesteal choices, tank items, etc).
Ionian Boots with Frozen Heart and 'Nomicon?
: This isn't ignite though. And yes, you do take the full bleed for every one hit. So if you are hit for 100 and bleed for 30, 2 seconds later hit for 100 again, that 1 second is going to be a 15 damage tick followed by two 10 damage ticks.
First tick is 20. 10 from old, 10 from new instance of damage.
: Dance's DoT is not reduced by Helm.
In fact, Dance works by taking the post-mitigation damage and converting 30% of that into the bleed. The bleed then is applied as true damage, as true damage is essentially just post-mitigation damage.
Vectros (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=JaxMoonStealer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PbQrsv8m,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2017-05-09T21:45:18.948+0000) > > Yeah, because Skarner is sooooo weak at the moment... He has like a 46% win rate. I'm not saying he's urgot level, but he doesn't see much success. This is actually made worse when you realize he has a rather low play rate, and still can't even hit 50%. Which means it's his mains playing him, and they struggle to make 50. Yeah, he is weak. Don't get me wrong, I still love him. His late game is SUPER nasty, one of the strongest if you ask me. But good luck reaching it. Lee Sin, Rengar, Khazix, etc. will tear you a new one before you have a chance of getting there. Not to mention their ganks are easier due to gap closers. More like, 52% on average. And it looks like he had a similar performance for several patches.
Adalvar (EUW)
: Would you consider then putting an indicator in the champ select showing which dragons will appear via RNG? That way you could draft around certain dragon types and such.
The point of the randomness of the Dragon spawns is that you don't have information on that before the game starts.
: Early Highlight on Tanks That Seem Weak in 7.9
A big part of the issue for tanks currently, especially in top lane, is the nerf to Sunfire Cape. This nerf was long overdue (at least since mid-season 6), but now tanks need to find other build paths to work in the top lane. And players as a majority won't immediately do that after a patch, even if the patch notes suggest the necessity of it. Maokai actually is not better nor worse off, his performance did not change with the patch. Made a thread on it myself a few days ago:
: even barring these champs who specifically work well with health, majority of tanks and bruisers valued the higher HP values and were balanced around that being the primary defensive stat
Yes, these champions were balanced around health first and resistances second since the shift in defensive paradigm back in preseason 3. That means, they've been balanced around this concept for 4.5 years, more or less. I really don't think you can expect a shift in the paradigm that fundamental to immediately come out completely balanced. Hell, it took Riot the majority of S3 to balance the previous paradigm shift. The other issue for tanks currently, especially in top lane, is the nerf to Sunfire Cape. This nerf was long overdue (at least since mid-season 6), but now tanks need to find other build paths to work in the top lane. And players as a majority won't immediately do that after a patch, even if the patch notes suggest the necessity of it.
: Jungle tanks and support tanks have been crap since S7 began. Top lane tanks have had a couple good picks and otherwise been crap. Not sure what you are on.
Will not argue with you on jgl/sup tanks, those have been in a really bad spot ever since the beginning of S7. But top lane tanks used to be fairly strong, even beyond the ones played in LCS. In fact, Malphite, Zac, Sion, the other tanks on top of the competitive staples (Nautilus, Gragas, Poppy, Maokai, Shen) had positive winrates (52%+). And Galio was moving there, als well, as people began to better understand his new kit. So, there are no real top lane tanks save Cho'Gath (who got buffs and has more of a meta problem) left to be crap!
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