asds32 (EUW)
: Leaver Buster sadly counts bad wifi as leaving, or when your wifi goes away drops u off match..
https://xkcd.com/654/ "Gaming on wifi? You only got yourself to blame."
: the Meta defined this Worlds. Shouldnt Riot open up more strategic options?
Pro play will always have a relatively narrow concentration on a few main champions per role. Not just because these champions are stronger than the rest, but also because pro players have only 24 hours in their day (like the rest of us). Since the game is not requiring hard counters (like DotA 2), it makes more sense to learn a lower number of champions more deeply.
saltran (EUW)
: "But why the 16-0-5 Graves still one shots me if he was nerfed?"
Any 16-0-5 champion will oneshot you (and/or be unkillable in the process). Heck, a 16-0-5 poro would probably oneshot you.
: whats with the recent nerfs
Preseason is around the corner and will shake up the state of balance in a major way, due to the (re-)implementation of adjustable stat bonuses to go with your rune paths. This will inevitably have a major effect on all champion's balance, as a lot of them may prefer certain keystones and/or minor runes, but do not synergize nearly as well with the current path bonuses.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 17
Hello Meddler, in light of Nunu becoming Nunu and Willump: What are the chances for Quinn to become Quinn **and Valor** again?
: should stop parroting other. His wr didnt change around plat and lower. Even High elos streamers laughed at the change (Scarra, LS...)
https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Graves/Jungle/historic/
: i honestly like theses Worlds, its so much better than ardent meta or any "everyone for adc". But clearly, Irelia and Kaisa needed some nerfs before worlds patch. Anyway, kai'sa is nerfed on pbe, hope you'll nerf Irelia AND GRAVES !!!!! (-3 AD seriously).
https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Graves/Jungle/historic/
: Buff quinn
Please don't. Sincerely, a Quinn main.
: Understanding Kai'Sa's Nerf
More context for Kai'Sa's nerf: https://www.reddit.com/r/kaisamains/comments/9ne77v/thoughts_on_new_nerfs/e7oabuk/?context=3&st=jnatdrud&sh=623e016c
: PSA: Swords attacks don't cause AOE
Dude. One word: [Magic.](https://youtu.be/aUJM0JugPb4?t=12)
: It's not that GA or Zhonya's are bad, per se...
Somewhat yes. However, it is difficult to design an AD-oriented Armor item that it healthy for the game - if it is too strong or incorrectly set up, it makes AD vs AD lanes extremely snowbally (due to the fact that you get to both build stats that increase your power and diminish your opponent's power). Same for AP/MR items - remember old Abyssal Sceptre?
: "-3 AD on an AA-reliant jungler is nothing" - People that know literally nothing about jungling, autos, or Graves's passive.
https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Graves/ Yup, absolutely nothing. No drop in winrate will result from this nerf.
: You could say that Kai'Sa is the perfect hybrid champion And that turns out to have been somewhat of a problem lmao Nerf her items and she just finds new ones to abuse
Kai'Sa's thing as a hybrid champion is the fact that her passive's well-scaling %-missing HP damage circumvents the biggest weakness of hybrid champions (the inability to build penetration as a damage amplifier).
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 10
Good evening (local time) Meddler, is there any chance that we might get Quinn to be "Quinn and Valor" again? With her ult becoming less of a taxi mode and more of a murderbird? Like this following idea: > - Champion renamed to "Quinn and Valor" > - Ultimate renamed Tag Team, retains all current functions and gains the following additions: > - When casting her ultimate, Quinn is replaced by Valor (no more taxibird, murderburd is back) > - Valor has 125 attack range, but maybe gains a bit of (base) AD or on-hit damage or higher base AS > - Valor casts Q as a PBAoE, his first auto after the cast applies and consumes Harrier > - Using E as Valor dashes him to attack range of target enemy > - Quinn and Valor share cooldowns > - In Valor form, Harrier's visuals lack the swoop down of the eagle. Instead, the mark is indicated by a single crossbow bolt. > > *Mostly for nostalgic reasons. By not giving Valor (a melee champion) benefits beyond the changed Q targeting paradigm, Quinn's power level should not change too drastically, especially since Quinn and Valor share cooldowns (and an E as a gapcloser cannot be used as a gapopener until the regular cooldown has passed).*
Meddler (NA)
: We're still working on nailing down details there. What should be in for testing today: Passive damage - 10% Missing HP (+27.5-110% AP based on target % missing health) instead of 15% + (3.75% per 100AP) Missing HP Q Mana - 67 down to 55, instead of just a flat 55
Interesting. This heavily hits her late-game scaling, as (my PoV) her missing HP damage with high AP scaling is the reason that her mixed damage builds scale so well despite not being able to build penetration efficiently. And yesterday's changes are cancelled? What about the changes to her augment threshoulds? Are those still projected to rise?
: The Braum and Tahm nerfs were targeted at pro play. Those are a pair of supports that Riot has been looking to knock down a peg for a little while now. But how that ties in to reducing power the power level of Kai'Sa, I'm not entirely sure, because you could still easily pair those champions with any other Marksmen(?). So I don't know how that would change the delta of power between Kai'Sa and the other hypercarries.
I doesn't change the power between Kai'Sa and similar hypercarries, as it is not intended to do that. Rather, lowering the power of the protecting supports makes the laning phase a more dangerous place for her and the other hypercarries, making their intended window of weakness more abusable.
: How many defensive items do you need to actually survive in this game???
4 people spend their shit taking you out - and if you say Blitz and Cho locked you down, it was probably taking place over a longer time window (6+ seconds). Cho has %-HP damage on E and his R nuke (which probably did some 900+ damage at that point in the game, depending on Cho's stacks). Elise has %-HP damage on Q and fairly good sustained damage with skitterlings in spiderform, especially with spider W. Annie has Tibbers, who does a ton of damage both with his autos and his burn aura if you can't evade. I am not surprised that they killed you - no champion is supposed to last long when tanking 4 people with all their abilities. Rather, the question is: What did your team do with the time and opportunity you bought them?
Hayaishi (NA)
: The best thing about new Essence Reaver
The problem with Essence Reaver for ADCs is that only a few of them can make really good use out of Essence Flare. {{champion:22}} : High CD ult. Secondly, her ult is either used as an initiation tool from longer range (meaning, Essence Flare's activation timer could run out) or saved as an emergency tool (meaning Essence Flare does not activate unless you need to vacate the fight like right now). {{champion:51}} : Does not use her ult in fights, similar problems to Ashe. {{champion:42}} : Spams his ult too much to make optimal use of Essence Flare. {{champion:119}} : Mainly uses his ult as a kill secure/finisher. {{champion:81}} : Has other item needs. {{champion:222}} : See Draven and Ashe. {{champion:145}} : Possible ER user. Problem is, ult has a long CD - and there are better options for her itemization currently available. {{champion:429}} : Cannot use her ult in fights just for a steroid's sake. {{champion:96}} : Same as Corki - his ult is, in fact, too spammable. {{champion:236}} : Possible ER user. Prefers Black Cleaver due to its lower focus and lower dependency on ult, though. {{champion:21}} : Spends half of ER's activation window ulting. {{champion:133}} : Personally like ER on her, due to Essence Flare window only opening when using Skystrike/leaving ult. However, Stormrazor is more popular on her. {{champion:15}} : Prefers Stormrazor for the Crit proc. {{champion:18}} : Ult is a major safety tool and too liberal use can screw your teammates over. {{champion:110}} : Potential user. Current build prefers Rageblade, though. {{champion:67}} : Potential user, since her ult is a steroid anyways. However, does not need CdR nor mana sustain nearly as much. {{champion:498}} : Ult is a major safety tool, again.
: > [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=BJQgXX8z,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2018-10-06T19:56:12.346+0000) > > No reason to rework her. > > Learn to play against her. > > She's easy to beat. While I agree, I also feel that Vayne can outplay most non-adc champions due to the fast nature of her dashes, resulting in a skill v skill matchup. Take Xerath for example. If a Xerath has perfect accuracy then he will outrange and outdamage a Vayne, but if a Vayne is able to dodge all of his skillshots then she will win, but if a Xerath predicts her dash correctly then he wins. This usually happens with most champions. Now, Vayne is utter garbage early game, and only picks up momentum where other ADCs begin to drop it, hence her "hyperscale-late-game" theme. However, ADCs like Draven will prevent Vayne from contributing to teamfights because of his high instant damage that's targeted. Also, there's another champion, called Kai'sa, that's only outshined by Vayne in winrate because of 2 reasons. 1. Kai'sa can hold her own early game, but Mid-Game she isn't as good as Vayne, due to Vayne's fast Qs and W proc damage, and Vayne's R's influence over skirmishes. 2. Kai'sa is played nearly 40% of all games as the ADC. Vayne's best BEST BEST application is a strict Kai'sa "counterpick", but really it's a safety net where the only ADC that can match Kai'sa's late game is picked. No one else can match Kai'sa's sheer late game power. Aside from that, late game oriented team comps may utilize Vayne if Kai'sa is banned, which is a lot of the time.
Kai'Sa is currently somewhat overtuned, but her nerfs over the last few patches had some impact as well: https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Kaisa/ADC/historic/ However, her kit is not fundamentally broken - even more than Vayne, all Kai'Sa brings to a team is damage, so she has to do a lot of it. Personally, I think that Kai'Sa is being propped up by Rageblade, like Varus and (in solo queue) Vayne. The double-hit mechanic is simply too good for champions that have powerful on-hits.
Hibeki (NA)
: And im telling you youre just flat out wrong, no counterplay = toxic
No counterplay would be if her % max HP true damage would come from a point&click spell with not other conditions. Which is simply not true. Rather, Vayne's %-max HP true damage is gated behind her auto-attacking the same target 3 times **without switching**. This means that you can play against it - force her to auto a different target or force her away before she can hit 3 times. Also, you can build anti-AS-items to slow her damage application down.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ætheist,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ffBqOsEP,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-10-05T20:01:51.038+0000) > > Yasuo could be actual garbage and he'd probably STILL be one of the most banned champions. Which serves the point that people don't like playing with him in the game. Which supports the arguments to gutter him until he gets reworked. Even if he's the most fun champion in the game to play AS, if he's awful to play against, there's a problem.
: That sion nerf is absolutely useless
If him regen'ing too much due to W's HP stacking is the problem, they should just make his HP stacking work like Tear's stacking does. Instead of giving him +4 current and max HP, killing a minion should give him 4 max HP and (4 x current %HP) current HP. Or, rather, give him +3 max HP and (3 x current %HP) current HP, reverting the recent buff for killing small fry.
: Yep, we're also increasing turret damage! We're still tuning however, but they'll be punching champs harder
Do you only increase damage per shot? Or is there also work planned on other offensive aspects of the turrets - like, increasing shot frequency while heating up. Or making shots generally more reliable - i.e., the turret always firing a shot if it acquired you (the audible ding sound).
: We nerfed him since he was 58% winrate up until around silver MMR. We typically focus explicitly on plat+, but there are certain bounds at which we take action for lower level play as well. Doesn't make it easy, or feel good, Internal metrics still have him around 54 in low MMR, and around 53 high MMR. I'll need to double check those metrics though, since the post below this from ShirukuSama has him sitting at 47% according to lolalytics which is a pretty big discrepancy between what you guys are seeing and what we were looking at. Makes for a painful perception mismatch for sure. For context usually the delta is closer to ~1-2% between external sites and our own dashboards
I dunno where that guy saw him at 47% on LoLalytics. https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Yorick/ Has him at 52% average for Plat+ and 50.7% for Dia+.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 12
{{champion:236}} : Were his buffs strictly necessary? He's already quite performing in solo queue (LoLalytics has him at 52% winrate and 25% pickrate for 8.17).
: Could be possible to have a Backpack?
I like the idea of the backpack, with a few concerns/ideas for balancing: - Items in the backpack are effectively in stasis - they don't contribute anything to your stats, and their cooldowns are effectively frozen as well. They also don't stack. - Certain items cannot be put in the backpack: It is not possible to place items with HP sustain effects (increased Hp5, Lifesteal, {{item:3083}} ) in the backpack. This is simply to prevent everyone building Warmog's in superlong games, or placing a BT in the pack and only swap it in to sustain in the next creepwave.
Meddler (NA)
: Our goal's to have most of the changes in one patch (8.22 or 8.23). Spreading changes out over multiple patches wasn't helpful during this year's mid season, resulting in a longer period before things settled down for the same amount of change.
If you have preseason hit in 8.23, will there be enough time for at least one, preferably two, more patches before the Christmas break? It always sucks if there's something that dominates the game over the Christmas break (like Thunderlord's back in preseason 7), given that a lot of people might find time to play with old friends in that window. I really liked the small patch, 7.24b, right before Christmas last year.
Meddler (NA)
: We don't currently have an Udyr rework underway. Whenever we do I'd expect it to involve keeping his core quite similar (low CD stance swapping, melee range, ability to vary builds in terms of offense/defense heavily etc).
Would something akin to Rengar's reworked Q be appropriate for an Udyr VGU? A short-ranged skill shot in some manner?
: Physical DPS Items are really broken and need a stiff nerf
14950 gold vs 18300 gold. Hmm, I wonder why the bruiser with 3300 gold more in synergistic stats beats the tank with less gold in synergistic stats. Especially since the tank also has an item that has seriously bad gold efficiency on a single champion (Knight's Vow).
Moody P (NA)
: That's not why it came out. Stoneplate came out at the same time tank items were being reworked so they could split the itemization that tanks and bruisers had -- pushing bruisers more into flat health and tanks into heavier resists. "Damage creep" had nothing to do with it.
Also, Stoneplate came out when they reworked Guardian Angel into an AD item. Basically, Stoneplate fuliflls the same role GA had on tanks - giving them a second health bar. Stoneplate just does it without 2.5 seconds of stasis on top while requiring active input.
: Preseason Development Update 1
> Additionally we’re exploring some slight damage increases on turrets in the early game so that tower dives aren't more powerful. We still like them to be present, but there are cases right now where it seems like the attacker isn’t taking enough risk. Instead of (or possibly in addition to that), could you maybe also take a look at both turret targeting mechanisms and attack speed against champions? By targeting mechanisms, I mean that, for example, a turret would always fire a shot at a target it acquired (even if the target immediately moves out of range). And increased (or ramping) AS against champions would punish prolonged tower dives harder than 1-2 shot dives.
: Ahri's foxfire needs a rework
Interesting ideas. The main issue I have with your W rework is that you add more waveclear onto a very powerful roamer and semi-assassin - which has a proven track record to lead to balance problems. The idea with the AA enhancer is good, though. Why not have the foxfires be single-target skillshots, instead? There are few mages with single-target skillshots (like Ryze's Q) after all.
: Let's discuss Nami's kit
> - Make Nami's passive specific to moving (either away from or towards) enemies. This would hopefully help solidify nami's role into either engage or disengage (engage would make more sense with her kit, particularly her ult). This change could be offset by increasing the amount of the speed boost, and would go a long way towards pushing Nami out of the realm of generalist. One could also think about increasing the duration of the speed boost a notch, instead of the power.
: Hey Meddler! I was wondering if there's been any discussion about caster style marksmen and Essence Reaver? It used to be a core item for most of them (Ashe, Xayah, Sivir), but the new passive as well as the low scaling of the new version puts it out of reach for those champions. Has there been any thought towards maybe bringing back the "CDR from crit" passive in some form to the game?
CdR from Crit might be a bit problematic. What I'd rather have them try is to name IE's crit chance doubling passive (something like "Double Down" or "Explosive Exponent") and have Essence Reaver/an Essence Reaver analogue be an alternative to Infinity Edge at IE's price point.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 29
{{champion:202}} . Any comments on this ~~motherless bast!#d~~ fine champion?
Luminier (NA)
: I think he definitely needs his movement speed bonuses looked at. Not sure if nerfing his damage is the way to go. Stormrazor definitely kicked him into overdrive.
Not just Stormrazor - Hail of Blades is as much of a culprit, since the MS boost of his passive scales with AS. Maybe have that passive effect only scale with permanent AS?
: over 100 % was already fixed, they decreased the cost of zeal items and infinity edge then decreased crit rate given by zeal items and shaved true damage and ad off of infinity edge... ALL IN ONE PATCH like 2 patches ago.
Err, no? Zeal Upgrades stayed at 30% Crit Chance, for the reason that lowering them to 25% would screw with power curves too much AND lock all ADCs into going IE + 2 Zeal Upgrades.
: A logically easy fix does not necessarily result in a technically easy fix. Wuks has definitely done some impressive things with the boards since I was a mod but they still have some hard limitations that he can't get around. It might simply not be possible. There is also the fact that it would result in an increase in low effort comments, which would hurt the purpose of Gameplay+ significantly. While comments are moderated in Gameplay+, they aren't pre-approved like posts are, so there is no easy way to prevent a flood of low quality comments, even if the tech to tie voting to comments could be implemented. There are also a lot of people who don't like commenting, Tying all forms of voting to commenting would result in far fewer overall votes, which hurts the visibility of such threads. -------------------------------------- Personally I am pretty in the middle on the whole no downvote thing, it has both pros and cons and I am fine with either method. Just wanted to point out that solving one problem can create a host of others.
I'd love to see an agree/disagree system independent from votes.
: I'm fully aware stuns are currently more common. But Riot is slowly adding knock-ups where there would traditionally be stuns. The primary question of this topic is whether or not that's a trend they should continue following. >Also, if you were to convert most of the 1 s-knockups into stuns, they'd have a baseline duration of 1.5 seconds - or ~1 second with Mercs. That's a justification I see fairly often on the forums, and it's not limited to just tenacity. And it always brings me back to the same question. Thing A exists. Thing B exists to counter Thing A. Thing A is is buffed on the assumption that it will always be countered. Now either the counter is mandatory to deal with thing A, or the counter is meaningless because thing A now ignores it. Either way, the existence of the counter accomplishes nothing. So in the case of Tenacity, should it be removed or in some way gated such that Knock-ups no longer become a necessary counter-counter?
That's actually a part of how the prevalence of moveblock CC came to be in the first place. Back in the early seasons (S1 and S2), average CC durations (on stuns, roots, etc., but also slows - slow proce Phage, slow proc Randuins, popularity of 2.5s slow Atmallet...) were longer, which made everyone buy Merc Treads. In fact, you'd have 4+ Mercs on any given team. Not because A (CC duration) was buffed, but because CC duration was already so high from the outset as to make CC reduction such a powerful stat. But I would not say that Tenacity should be removed - it still has an important place in the game when facing long-duration CC. Just because there are more instances of non-reducible CC does not mean that reducible CC vanished. Rather, Tenacity becomes more of a situational buy. Also, nowadays time-to-kill is pretty low (which Riot has acknowledged and is working on). That devalues Tenacity, as there is no effective difference between a 1 sec stun and 1.5 sec stun if it only takes 0.9 sec to kill someone.
: The investment to escape a knock-up is significantly higher than a stun. This is why I rank it below only Stasis in the power hierarchy. But when is that added investment justified and when is it not? Right now, Stuns (without the move block) seems to be used interchangeably with with knock-ups. Is this a trend that we can justify?
According to the Wiki, 31 champions have straight knock-ups. 32 with Newnu. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Types_of_Crowd_Control#Airborne Here are the respective durations: 0.5 s: {{champion:266}} , {{champion:267}} , {{champion:113}} 0.75 s: {{champion:3}} , {{champion:59}} , {{champion:117}} , {{champion:78}} , {{champion:5}} 1 s: {{champion:12}} , {{champion:53}} , {{champion:31}} , {{champion:105}} , {{champion:427}} , {{champion:64}} , {{champion:111}} , {{champion:516}} , {{champion:497}} , {{champion:421}} , {{champion:141}} (as Rhaast), {{champion:163}} , {{champion:143}} 1.25 s: {{champion:3}} (R) , {{champion:254}} 1.5 s: {{champion:54}} 2 s: {{champion:516}} (R), 0.5-1 s: {{champion:14}} , {{champion:154}} 0.5-1.25 s: {{champion:40}} 1-1.5 s: {{champion:201}} (R) 1.5-2 s: {{champion:429}} ?: {{champion:92}} (should be 0.75-1 s) {{champion:62}} (same), {{champion:157}} (same), {{champion:20}} (?) 32 champions with straight knockups doesn't seem to be that overbearing to me, tbh. However, I'd agree with you that unconditional/untelegraphed AoE knockups with longer than 1s duration feel really bad - {{champion:201}} {{champion:429}} {{champion:54}} . Feel like those could be capped at 1 s and have the rest of the time only with the (reducible) stun. Also, if you were to convert most of the 1 s-knockups into stuns, they'd have a baseline duration of 1.5 seconds - or ~1 second with Mercs.
: General discussion of knock-ups VS Stuns
First, let's clarify what a knock-up actually is: Mechanistically, Knock-ups are actually stuns that occur simultaneously with with a moveblock (the actual knock-up). The stun part is reduced by Tenacity, while the moveblock has a forced execution time. If you remove the stun (with QSS, Mikael's, enough Tenacity or similar stuff) and reenable yourself to cast abilities, you can actually use your own moveblock to override the knock-up's moveblock, enabling yourself to act sooner. However, for some reason, {{summoner:1}} is specifically denied this feature.
: This explains it VERY well: https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/free_speech_2x.png
: My thoughts on the new Gameplay+ board
I love the idea of the new Gameplay+. An idea that would make it even better: An agree/disagree voting system in addition to upvoting posts (and the ability to sort "Hot" for for agree/disagree).
: Wukong finally is balanced, 45% winrate in jg and top, Good job Riot.
https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/champion/MonkeyKing/ 48-50%, depending on role, doesn't look so bad to me.
: Oh, so no respawning at your ghost?
Yeah. Respawning on the platform and being taken out of action that way is an important factor in League, and not something one should mess with.
: Would Leoric's trait from HotS be a usable gameplay element in League?
With the caveat that the enemy would respawn at the fountain, this might be a good idea.
: Tank changes for 8.16
Looks pretty nice from a noob's conceptual PoV. One issue I have with Leona's W change - specifically, bringing the rank 1 cooldown to 18 seconds. This will affect her ranking fluidity - 1 thing I always liked about Leona. Depending on the game, you can decide whether you want more stun uptime first (Q first), need more tankiness (W first) or want more chances to engage (E first).
Meddler (NA)
: We're expecting her performance to increase dramatically as people get used to her. Might give her a bit of extra MR in the near future, holding off on any other buffs though, try and avoid the overbuff.
No one said Riot will not learn to be cautious with champions, eh? ^^
: Blaming “damage creep” for current balance issues missed an array of much larger problems at hand
In this case, defensive itemization should probably involved defensive runes and masteries. Damage, especially early game damage, seems too high (where non-defensive champions are concerned) because baseline defenses have been taking a pounding over the years. Just compare S2 R/M to (end of) S7 R/M to RR nowadays. S2 R/M had 36-138 bonus HP, 19 Armor (13 runes + 6 masteries), +14 or +3-29 MR on the defensive side. S7 R/M had 50 bonus HP, 2 reduced damage, 13 Armor and 12/1-27 MR, as well as a conditional 2-27 resistances for 2 seconds. S8 RR has 5 Armor, 40 HP, and bet 15 and 135 HP (which comes with a hefty trade-off in terms of damage).
Eedat (NA)
: PSA: Riot is not this board's personal servant
> If I had any suggestion it would be that that mods need to come down much harder and remove a lot of trash content, blatant clickbait titles, duplicate threads, and witch hunt rageposts that have no intention of promoting actual discussion. This. So. Much. This.
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ProfDrDeath

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