: I am sick of seeing the same ADCs every game.
Ban Caitlyn. All three others, you're more likely to win than to lose the game based on their statistical performance.
Kuro SF (NA)
: I don't understand how this is related. Nothing I've said has anything to do with how long it takes to get wards. The support item is nerfing the gold a support gets by catching a wave mid/late game. Instead of getting ~25g per creep, we (eventually) get 6g per creep because of the support item. I'm saying that this is fine during laning phase, when your ADC should be the one CSing. However, when the game evolves, and I'm running around catching waves that are crashing, or there is a teamfight in lane and my spells are blowing away creeps, or my mid/ADC/top afks and I need to be the carry, or who knows what else, I need to get the full gold value for the creeps. Otherwise the support item is a liability not an assistance. Two ways to do this would be to (a) make the diminishing return only apply until the support item is fully upgraded (to it's final state), or (b) make the diminishing return only apply when friendlies are nearby. Neither of them completely solves the problem.
> catching a wave mid/late game. 20+ CS in 5 min is NOT catching a wave or two. Late game, 70 minions spawn every 5 min. To trigger the penalty, you'd need to CS over a quarter of a lane's available CS - and then, you no longer play a support.
Profirix (NA)
: I actually posted this before he made that announcement.
That's probably why Antenora informed you about the update.
: The fact that people continuously circle jerk and pretend like the numbers arent there to support that by all definitions senna is considered overtuned and in need of a hotfix, is astonishing to me. She was released 3 weeks ago. Recall when yuumi became live and when kaisa was live, both got emergency buffs.
Senna did not look too out-of-line when 9.23 was locked down for deployment. And 9.23 did not have ANY champion-specific balance changes on top of the preseason changes. And with 9.23 being a 3-week patch (due to Thanksgiving), her being released 3 weeks ago and not having balance changes announced yet is only logical. Don't worry, her numbers warrant plenty of nerfs over the next few patches. Hope that they start by sawing training wheels off of her kit, like lowering MS to the (long-range appropriate) 325 and removing the gold gain on wraith collection.
: I could've sworn I read somewhere that they were gonna wait a little longer than usual before touching Senna, but I can't seem to find the source. Probably they will nerf her next patch?
That might've been said in context of the next patch being 9.23, the preseason patch. And it was probably right to wait out 9.23 with balance changes for her, given that she did not look too out of line when 9.23 was locked and that 9.23 was going to throw everything into the preseason melting pot anyways. However, her performance this patch indicates that she's clearly too strong. However, with 9.23 being a 3 week patch due to the US's thanksgiving holiday, we'll have to suffer her state for an additional week before nerfs come in.
Deecoyy (NA)
: Blade of the Ruined King and Might of the Ruined King
Can you also file this in Report A Bug?
: Senna needs nerfs
Senna, first and foremost, needs her training wheels sawed off. Lower her MS to 325 (like the other long-ranged ADCs), lower her starting range to 550, then evaluate from there.
: The clowns are the Darius mains complaining about lane bullies, and you can't convince me it's anything else.
You Darius player want to make me have no fun this game? Fine, I'm not going to play Sion/Poppy/Cho'Gath today, I'm playing Quinn/Kennen/Vladimir/etc... My fun will not be denied this game. ---- But seriously, as long as melee champions that auto-win melee match-ups exist, people will play ranged champions in the top lane. Simply because playing a melee champion into Darius is a mind-blowingly unfun experience.
Meddler (NA)
: The healing removal's been the subject of a lot of internal discussion too. So far we haven't seen melee supports be meaningfully weaker than other supports, suggesting that while support item power's down the extra early gold might be filling in the gap enough (ability to just directly buy regen or tank stats if needed). Double melee lanes I'd agree could well have been hit pretty hard which wasn't a goal. We'll see where things settle then potentially look at ways to support that style of play that don't reintroduce funnel comp issues or other problems.
Personally, I like the removal of both the healing on Relic Shield procs and the damage on Spellthief's procs. It helps a lot with the feeling that the supports are the only ones to dictate how laning phase goes in bot lane. That being said, I'd love it if there was a way to itemize back into said effects in some manner not tied to the support income items. Like an item with a Kalista-W-style passive that gave healing to you and another champion if you both hit the same target in a short window.
Rioter Comments
: I'm with you. It has made the problem supports less of a problem. My only issue so far is that I find I am slower to get the ward than I was before by about a minute for the spellthiefs items and 1 minute and a half or even 2 minutes slower on the relic shield items. I am sure part of that is adjusting to items, drag, etc, but it FEELS like riot has made it so we get our quest completion later. Add in the alcove changes making it so lane brush warding is now even more important and my experience has been that bot lane is open season for junglers (and the slowed xp gain which i really feel but not sure if it is a problem yet),
Well, quest completion is actually later now, due to the gold gain no longer being upgradable manually. And gold requirement for quest completion has increased from 450 to 500.
: Or you just buy the relic shield versions?
This. Relic Shield Line is only 20 AP less than Spellthief's Line in the end, but with double the HP.
: How does a short ranged ADC play around Malph Ult?
{{item:3814}} has just been buffed for anti-Malphite purposes - unless someone else pokes the shield off first, you should be safe from surprise engages.
: {{item:3853}} {{item:3860}} both have a decent amount of ap so idk if mages will actually be removed from bot If nothing else {{champion:99}} {{champion:63}} {{champion:161}}{{champion:143}} will probably be more oppressive
Mages took a heavy hit not for the AP on their support item, but moreso for the removal of the item's mana regen and Tribute damage procs.
Saezio (EUNE)
: + Season 10 has not started yet, it's been like a couple pre season days so far. + If TFT was RNG there wouldn't be 2 accounts of the same player in the top 5 challenger spots. Get your shit together. You just don't want to learn to play it. + You can turn the elemental particles off can't you? + There is a Rant section for these kind of low effort posts that have the sole purpose of vending off
> Season 10 has not started yet, it's been like a couple pre season days so far. In fact, it has been less than 1 day.
Ventira (NA)
: Cuz apparently the gp/10 for Tier 3 is roughly equal to the amount of gold generated from the old support items, in mid-game/later, when players usually completed the old t3's. (which makes sense, after a certain point in the game relic shield users were not getting execute gold anymore.) It's also worth remembering that supports do have a grand total of 1500 freed up gold too.
This. Rarely (and I mean, only in 50+ min games) did the gold you get from your support item exceed 2400 gold. That means that, in almost any case, new support items give you more gold to play with than before.
: I mean, Taric scales pretty damn well with AD due to his passive. While he'd prefer mana regen and HP regen, considering how abysmal being a melee non-hook support with high mana costs is, he'll use the AD very well.
Well, Taric might want to use the new Shurelia's now. It basically looks tailor-made for him, between HP, HP regen, H&S power and CdR.
: Senna: Broken or Not Broken? (poll)
Hmm. Personally, I think her kit is in a good place regarding intended strengths and weaknesses. E might become a copper-plated bitch to balance between organised play and solo queue, though. Number-wise, she's probably a tad overtuned and could stand to have a few training wheels removed. For instance, she has 330 movement speed despite her superlong AA range. All champions with comparable permanent AA ranges have 325, the lowest in the game.
Galiö (NA)
: I thought, initially, it could be ok/good on like Neeko and Kayle. Then it was nerfed for Ranged Champions and cant think of a melee champion to utilize it. I'm curious to if there any plans for it.
{{champion:36}} keystones what he pleases.
: We've got a fix for an issue causing this and will have it in 9.23 next week. Client minimizing sometimes mid game when extra mouse buttons are pressed. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
: Do you think {{champion:133}} falls under the 'incompatible audiences' issue? Many players seem to want the melee assassin playstyle back as Valor, but there are also those who picked her up after the rework and thus prefer the current map mobility-focused ult. Personally, I wonder if there's a way to satisfy both parties, maybe by combining the two ults for example--though I'm not sure how sustainable that'd be balance-wise.
I think there could be a way to reconcile the both of them: - Ult completely changes in Valor, but keeps the current mechanics except: - Attacking or Casting Q/E don't return her to range form - Valor has 125 attack range as a melee, 0.694 base AS and +1 base AD/level (bonus stats for being melee) - In-combat, Valor's bonus MS is reduced to a flat 25 - Harrier remains active while being Valor (unlike old Tag Team) - animation changed to the enemy being marked by arrows from nowhere instead of bird from nowhere - Quinn form and Valor Form completely share cooldowns (DO NOT make her a shapeshifter) - Valor Q is a player-based AoE - Closest enemy hit is marked with Harrier, prefering champions over minions - Valor E is a dash that leaves him in AA range ---- As a fellow Quinn & Valor enthusiast, would that work? Or have I a snag somewhere in my thought process?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 15
Regarding Split Audiences: {{champion:133}} - Any chance we might see some elements of her old Tag Team ult back? To quote an old idea of mine: > - Ult changes to Valor, 125 range, instead of just taxibird > - Quinn and Valor share cooldowns > - Valor Q is PbAoE > - Valor E dashes him in AA range of target > - Harrier (passive) remain active as Valor
: Just that unlike the current warmongs heart, the good old warmongs didn't force you to buy aditional HP and instead supported no HP options like FH, thornmail or FoN by giveing the needed bulk to back up the defstats. Woarmongs heart for me is one of the biggest issues for tanks atm, cause it removes warmongs as a **standalone** high HP option. The old stacking was a way better concept.
> Woarmongs heart for me is one of the biggest issues for tanks atm, cause it removes warmongs as a standalone high HP option. Yeah, agree with you on that. What if Warmog's Heart had different trigger conditions? Like, 3000 total HP or 200 total Armor or 150 total MR, counting only permanent stats for the effect? Alternatively, reintroduce the stacking (2 HP/stack or so) and unlock Warmog's Heart at 100 stacks.
Rokuroú (EUW)
: Senna is a bit nuts
Too many training wheels, especially in the range and movement speed departments. Her starting at 600 range with that kind of range progression is too much, imo, and other long-range ADCs usually have 325 MS, not 330. You can't really judge her on 9.22, though, especially not in support. Given that the AD Spellthief (Spectral Sickle, I think?) does not get the bonus damage on the proc, her 9.23 support will lose a lot of damage compared to the 9.22 version.
: I think Qiyana is a cool champ, but wtf is that ulti?
Qiyana is going to be one of S10's Sylas/Irelia/Akali-type of champions, mark my words. Unless someone at Riot decides to get rid of the ult stun. If that's done, the rest of her kit should boil down to a numbers problem.
: I mean there is nothing wrong with tanks having regen during the laning phase. Most of them lose trades and get hard poked anyways. Plus it keeps tanks on par as split pushers vs sanguine blade users.
It is not just tanks I worry about. Sorry, misspoke in the above post - it should've said "tanks and tanky DPS" with access to massive regeneration in lane. Here is an old VOD from early S3, W1D1 of the EU LCS Spring: https://youtu.be/apDa4n4WuA0?t=11339 Look at both top laners' first item Warmog's and what it did to the lane. Shen vs. Olaf, both rushing Warmog's and making the lane basically a snoozefest in which any interaction is pointless. The same pattern evolved in S4's infamous Renekton/Mundo/Shyvana meta, in which another regeneration effect, this time from the Perseverance Mastery (0.7/1.35/2% missing HP every 5 seconds), took center stage. ---- And this pattern is why I am wary of powerful regeneration effects, especially passive regeneration effects, in a laning situation.
: Even on tanks and bruisers i remember warmongs or FH as first buy in S2, now bruisers have hydra or BC/trinity while tanks basically need sunfire to lane, with few haveing iceborn as option aswell, or bamis cinder into abysal vs ap. Befor that, we had the gp/10 era where the first ~1600g would be invested into sustain, hp and gp/10 with phillo and heart of gold. even the wriggles rush was more healthy, it gave a good deal of defense and sustain instead of raw kill potential. Sure, it didn't leave much room for other options on it's users at the time, but still... I also feel like full items were not that much stronger than compnents in raw gold efficiency back then. I often had warmongs+glacial shroud+negatron to get the needed defense for the first teamfights, and on bruisers a combi of wriggles, hextrinker and phage for some ad, and a mix of hp, armor and mr. Now you basically need a full item or you get stomped by anyone that has one, which makes it hard to itemize vs mixed damage early, meaning getting tanky for teamfights is near impossible till ~2-3 full items unless your kit gives enough survivabillity on it's own. and then ther is the thing with 'tank' runes always haveing a damage compnent aswell....
> and then ther is the thing with 'tank' runes always haveing a damage compnent as well.... I'd argue that that is not necessarily a bad thing. Inherently, defensive stats/effects are mostly reactive in nature, while offensive stats/effects encourage proactivity. And proactivity, especially in lane, makes for a better game. > I also feel like full items were not that much stronger than compnents in raw gold efficiency back then. That's a misconception. Xypherous's itemization rework (which I am still ambivalent about...) lowered full item premiums across the board. ---- That being said, I am with you that tank items are underwhelming right now. Imo, the issue is with the fact that tank items are too gold/slot inefficient on their own. Imagine a World in which Sunfire Cape cost 3000 gold, but built out of Kindlegem instead of Ruby Crystal. 500 HP, 10% CdR (funny enough, CdR has been creeped into every first item EXCEPT tanks'), 60 Armor - that's more comparable to a Black Cleaver, Death's Dance or Lost Chapter Upgrade in power.
Leetri (EUW)
: It gave 1000 HP at most, but it only gave health and 1,5% maximum health regen per second. The current Warmogs give a lot more stuff. For 350 more gold you got the following: -200 HP +3,5% health regen/second +200% base health regen +10% CDR Which in terms of raw gold means you get 458,7 gold more stats for only 350 gold. Now if the extra health regen and CDR is better than just 200 HP I don't know, I'm not good with builds. But you can't deny you get more for your money nowadays than before.
You show your youth. On My Kill List talks about Old Old Warmog's, or S2 Warmog's. That Warmog's gave 920 HP base and 450 HP at 100 stacks, with you getting 1 stack per CS or 10 stacks for kill or assist. Total HP = 1370. Basically, the stacking effect played the same role Warmog's Heart plays for today's 'Mog's, namely gating access to the full power of the item towards the later stages of the game.
: Recipe: Giant's Belt + Ruby Crystal + Rejuvenation Bead Item cost: Gold 2650 Combine cost: Gold 995 +1000 health Unique Passive: Restores 1.5% of your maximum health every 5 seconds. I think this version was the best. Cheap item tanks could rush to survive laning if they didnt need waveclear
No. That was the most overpowered version that gave tanks access to massive regeneration in the laning phase. That version is the reason Warmog's Heart exists which gates Warmog's full effect behind the HP threshould.
Rioter Comments
: What on earth shall we build on Senna?
You should not build attack speed on her. Not only is her base AS horrendous (0.200), but also her AA animation wind-up only scales with 2/3s of what AS she does get.
: Shes at about a 48% WR in the adc lane right now. Even less winrate as a support.. Probably will see some buffs
48% winrate after 1 day is actually on course to OP territory, tbh. I predict that she'll see quite some nerfs over the next months, especially to her base movement speed (for some reason she has 330, while all other long range (600+) ADCs have 325).
Vojtissek (EUNE)
: Banning Senna
Did the opposing team pick her? Or your team? You can't ban a champion if the opposing team does not have it.
: You do realize that building crit tends to mean you have less AD, right? None of the zeal items (pretty much the required way to reach 100% crit) have AD on them.
In preseason, that is no longer true. Between {{item:3508}} , {{item:3031}} and {{item:3095}} , we'll have 3 items with 50+ AD and Crit Chance. Add {{item:3094}} or {{item:3087}} to that, and you have 100% Crit Chance with missing too much AD.
: > [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WIliOENa,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-11-06T17:20:25.645+0000) > > ap malphite is a low elo phenomena and sucks ass in higher ranks And is getting nerfed.
You might want to use past tense there - 9.22 is Live right now.
: Agreed {{item:4401}} when
New {{item:4401}} : - 3000 gold - Builds from Negatron Cloak, 2 Reju Beads and ?? - 70 MR, 125% HP Regen, 4% MS, ?? - Unique Passive - Vigor: 30% of damage taken is dealt as a Bleed effect over the next 5 seconds, instead. (Death's Dance's passive also name Vigor). A spitballed idea for a big MR/anti-burst tank item. I am not sure which stat to fill the item up with, though - CdR is ubiquitous on MR tank items, HP would make it too much of a 1-stop-shop item. Maybe Armor?
Ulanopo (NA)
: Proposed Rules Update to Gameplay Sub-Board (Feedback Wanted)
I like these. Hopefully, they make it so reading through Gameplay is less of a jog through a murky swamp sometimes.
Bârd (NA)
: I think we've detracted pretty far from way support itemization was supposed to work.
> cheap utility items [...] Runic Bulwark 3200 gold is a cheap item now? There's a reason that thing was built on junglers back then and not on supports. ---- The new support items are actually going to be less effective than the current items, since they lose their non-gold-generating bonus effects. Meaning, no extra damage on Spellthief's procs, no healing on Targon's charges and no mana sustain from coins.
Antenora (EUW)
: Here's some ideas of changes I'd make to Kai'Sa.   **Idea 1: Lowering her obnoxious poke and waveclear.** Void Seeker (W) Range lowered from 3000 to 2500 Icathian Rain (Q) Damage modifier to low health minions: ~~200%~~ => 150% This would hurt her bullshit poke and would significantly lower her waveclear in lane.   ## OR   **Idea 2: Making her evolves come a little bit later** Icathian Rain (Q) - AD required to evolve ability: ~~100~~ => 120 Void Seeker (W) - AP required to evolve ability: ~~100%~~ => 120 Supercharge (E) - AS required to evolve ability: ~~100%~~ => 120%
You could also make her evolves require a staggered amount of stats. Like: 1st evolve requires 100 of the respective stat. 2nd evolve requires 120. And 3rd and final evolve requires 140-150.
: Variety in competitive botlanes
> Proposed solutions: Xayah is very likely to fall back into normality with some simple number nerfs; if we want to end this two-years-long Kai'sa omnipresence in both solo and competitive, serious design work is needed, and it won't be pleasant for her mains. Actually, it is the other way around: Kai'Sa's omnipresence could be cured with a few number tweaks, whereas Xayah might need design work. Evidence for this is Xayah STILL being the strongest bot laner in Worlds despite eating a strong nerf beforehand. She lost base Armor and had her ultimate CD increased by 20 seconds at all ranks, a combination that would've trashed most other champs. Kai'Sa needs a hit to her Evolve threshoulds, so she no longer has such an easy access to all three of them. For that, raising the stat requirement for subsequent evolves after the first to 120/140 would be a possibility.
Meddler (NA)
: Possibly? Option to start with a support item with some AD on it, plus greater freedom to spend gold on other items might help some existing champs prove more viable as supports. We don't have immediate plans at least to go and try and make dedicated tanks/fighters for that position though.
On the topic of support items, do Relic Shield and its AD companion still share the gold with an ally in range?
Done25 (NA)
: I fail to see the issue with this given that assassins might have access to **_five_** lethality items now.
Four are confirmed - the Tiamat Lethality upgrade is likely one of those experimental Lethality items they mentioned. Also, if the set bonus for 1 and 2 Lethality items gets implemented as planned, 1 Lethality item will still give 10% CdR.
: Marksmen really deserve more disengage, even if it's at the cost of their damage.
Maybe, if they actually hard-code the cost in damage into the game. For instance, Mirage Blade's effect: https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Mirage_Blade That could work, if they made it so that buying IE disables the ability to buy Mirage Blade (and vice-versa).
: Remember when enchanter Supports could more easily exist in the lane and provide this for the adc? There was a time when there was a nice healthy combat triangle in the Support role... Tank > Enchanter Enchanter > Mage Mage > Tank Now days, it looks more like.... Mage > Enchanter Mage > Tank Mage > Mage
Rejoice in preseason. Riot finally removes the damage from Spellthief's proc.
: Will edit the post, thanks
You need more details edited in: - 10 stacks max - Spell hits and melee autos grant 2 stacks.
: Preseason: Rise of the Elements on PBE!
Good evening Scruffy, would you mind sharing the correct value for shared XP? On live, the shared XP bonus is 30.4%, as per the wiki. Is the new shared XP bonus 28% (lowering the bonus by 2.4 percentage points)? Or is it 29.7% (97.6% of 30.4%)?
: Just realised something about the Preseason.
Having less XP in the duo lane pressures ADCs into bot lane, rather than out of it. The reason is that they are the champion class that is the least dependent on XP for their effectiveness.
Sydney26 (EUW)
: If u were Riot what would u have done for Preseason ???
1. Hard Limit Crit Items to a maximum of 2 per champion. 2. Reworked Zeal Upgrades to be in the 3300-3400 gold range (in conjuction with point 1). Both changes are intended reshape the ADC pattern, enabling them to still have good DPS while freeing them from the need to build 3+ crit items. This would turn ADC builds in general back towards their S2-S5 states, with room and need for defensive items and target-specific offensive items. Instead of the current situation, in which ADCs' raw DPS is so high to preclude the need for specific antitank itemization.
Unvictus (NA)
: The buff that cloud drake gives is cool down reduction on your ultimate. You have to kill 4 drakes to get a dragon soul, and 2 or more of them had to be cloud in order for you to get the Shojin effect. The chance of that happening on the regular is very slim. And when it does, the team should be rewarded for getting 4 drakes. You’re overreacting imo.
> and 2 or more of them had to be cloud in order for you to get the Shojin effect. That's incorrect. The dominant dragon is the third dragon that spawns, independently of the other stacks of the team. It is the dragon that determines how the Rift changes this game. All dragons after the third are going to be of this dominant type, though. For instance, if the spawn order is Cloud-Cloud-Infernal, the dominant dragon will be Infernal. The jungles will change shape accordingly (losing brush and creating additional wall gaps in the case of Infernal), and the Dragon Soul will be Infernal. If one side got both Cloud dragons, they can only get a single further Infernal. Their next dragon will give them the Infernal Soul effect.
Moody P (NA)
: why does boards complain so much about strategy when they completely refuse to adapt to the current dominant strategies
Because they don't want to adapt to strategies, they want their unthinking, lazyass "ram-head-into-wall-till-something-breaks" strategy to be the unequaled best in each and every situation.
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