Sasogwa (EUW)
: Yeah i don't know but several people made the calculation and they all found the same result you did, aka it's bonus AS and not total AS why do you have a duskblade icon for the thread though? :P
Duskblade Icon from the link. Seems like it is the first icon on that page.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Patch Chat with the Playtest Team - 8.6
Good morning (here in Europe, that is), would like to ask for clarification regarding Conqueror's working order, specifically how it interacts with damage increases. Does it work like this: 1. Calculate outgoing damage including all increases (like Coup de Grace, Last Stand, Cut Down, Giant Slayer, PtA's proc) against the target. For instance, for a 500 AD attack with Cut Down's max bonus, the damage would be 550. 2. Apply Conqueror's conversion effect. In the example, 550 physical damage becomes 440 physical and 110 true. 3. Apply target's resistances and damage reduction effects to non-true damage parts of the attack. For the example and attacking a tank with 100 Armor and Tabi, the attack would deal 198 physical and 110 true damage. Is this correct? Or would the damage increases only be calculated after Conqueror's conversion?
: 1. No, we do not hate ADCs. 2. We buffed him since he had some impact after the tracker knife changes and wanted to compensate him. 3. The game systems team did. Lowbo was the designer. 4. We overall felt that ADCs have a decent amount of agency and strengths without having to pay much for them. Kit weaknesses in ADC's that were explicitly not being able to push waves that well often found a lot of power in just getting statikk shiv and therefore not having to worry about having to pay some cost to clear waves. 5. We feel decently comfortable shipping this as is from internal testing and if I remember correctly it has been nerfed since hitting PBE. If there are any issues once it ships live, we will take appropriate action. Hope that gives you some insight into your questions. Take care!
With Lee Sin, do you feel it was the right call to buff his ult's base damage? That thing already hit like a truck, and it is a point and click spell on a champion who can compensate its short range with two forms of mobility.
: so you know the changes are going to break the champ and ship them makes sense indeed
No, 8.6's changes could (as in, have the potential to) break the champ, but are moving her into the right direction, design- and healthwise. So ship them. If she turns out too strong afterwards (as she did), one can always nerf her numbers a bit. Which the changes on the PBE do, lowering her base AD and Q mana efficiency a bit.
: 8.6: let's buff kai'sa, 1 day later: let's nerf kai'sa
She was buffed rather heavily this patch. Makes sense to have a few small adjustments in testing, in case the changes in 8.6 missed the mark in the opposite direction.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: It's Funny that We're Nerfing Duskblade Proc Damage
Shiv's damage is also being nerfed on the PBE. Not by much, for now, but still... > Damage changed from [60 - 160] to [60 - 140]
: > [{quoted}](name=ProfDrDeath,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yEhMfqj6,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-03-14T22:57:16.697+0000) > > Yeah, nerfing Shiv's waveclear is definitely a good start. > > However, there still needs to be a bit more: > > 1. ADC itemization needs to become a little bit more expensive (+300 on Zeal Upgrades, + 300 on IE and ER) > 2. ADC damage patterns could stand to become a little less damaging against squishies. For instance, swap IE's crit damage increase with a a partial damage->true damage conversion on crit, similar to what the new Conqueror rune wants to do. > 3. ADC itemization could get a few intermediate items that allow for smoother progression into the big guns to go with the cost increases. A reason Riot made ADC items cheaper last season in the first place is because their spike came too late - and if they go access to a smaller spike earlier, the bigger spike could be delayed more. > For instance, retool {{item:1018}} to build out of {{item:1038}} + {{item:1051}} to build into {{item:3508}} and {{item:3031}} , and make a {{item:1037}} + {{item:1053}} item to smoothen out paths for {{item:3072}} , {{item:3812}} and {{item:3074}} . Don't change IE as suggested, cuz the new Conqueror keystone converts 20% of damage to true damage after 4 seconds in combat.
Guess what inspired the idea for changing IE's passive...
: this was before they did that, it was just 50 AD (+24 AD) and 35% AS (+48% AS) but they changed the rework into a nerf instead now its just 25, 25, 25
That iteration you related to in your post was on the PBE for exactly 1 day. Tuesday to Wednesday last week. Since then, we had not only that, but several other Rageblade iterations on the PBE.
: How The New Guinsoos Can Positively, And Negatively Impact The Game
Is this thread a joke? Or did you really not inform yourself about the iteration of Guinsoo's that will ship to Live with patch 8.6? > Recipe: {{item:1037}} + {{item:1052}} + {{item:1043}} (3000 gold total) > > 25 AD, 25 AP, 25% AS > 5 + 0.1 bonus AD physical damage on-hit, 5 + 0.1 AP magic damage on-hit > > Unique passive: Basic attacks grant +8% Attack Speed, +4% Bonus Attack Damage, and +4% Ability Power for 5 seconds (up to 6 stacks). At max stacks, gain Guinsoo's Rage. For melee champions only, the next attack at 3 stacks will grant max stacks instantly. > Guinsoo's Rage: Every other basic attack will trigger on hit effects twice. So, the item will be much worse as a standalone damage item, but better in builds that pair it with other AD or AP items.
Rioter Comments
: "wtf, Riot nerfing ninja tabi when it's the only way to survive against adcs!!"
For the top lane cases specifically, I'd want to see the impact of the Conqueror Keystone before deciding what nerf Ninja Tabi need. True damage does not care about Tabi's Armor, nor its damage reduction passive. Beyond that, I think that Riot will basically have three options for Tabi nerfs: 1. Cost increase. This nerfs all uses equally. Might be the best option if Tabi are generally too strong. 2. Reducing their Armor value. This hurts the use on ADCs somewhat harder than the use against ADCs. 3. Hitting the passive in some way. This hurts Tabi harder in their use against ADCs, but less in their use on ADCs. Ultimately, I feel like hitting the Armor is probably the best solution here. Simply reducing the Armor by 5 should work against the issue you describe.
Elohaven (NA)
: ADCs are getting nerfed in 8.6
Yeah, nerfing Shiv's waveclear is definitely a good start. However, there still needs to be a bit more: 1. ADC itemization needs to become a little bit more expensive (+300 on Zeal Upgrades, + 300 on IE and ER) 2. ADC damage patterns could stand to become a little less damaging against squishies. For instance, swap IE's crit damage increase with a a partial damage->true damage conversion on crit, similar to what the new Conqueror rune wants to do. 3. ADC itemization could get a few intermediate items that allow for smoother progression into the big guns to go with the cost increases. A reason Riot made ADC items cheaper last season in the first place is because their spike came too late - and if they go access to a smaller spike earlier, the bigger spike could be delayed more. For instance, retool {{item:1018}} to build out of {{item:1038}} + {{item:1051}} to build into {{item:3508}} and {{item:3031}} , and make a {{item:1037}} + {{item:1053}} item to smoothen out paths for {{item:3072}} , {{item:3812}} and {{item:3074}} .
Meddler (NA)
: We're talking about Tabi at the moment. Should have some thoughts to share on Friday about them. Lot of that conversation's focused on how much of the issue is them being too strong versus being always a good choice (related issues, but not the same one).
Could it be that they are the best choice for squishies for a quick physical damage defense? As in, not being too much of a gold sink (1100 compared to GA's 2600 or Zhonya's 2900) while also not sacrificing a whole item slot to sit on a Cloth Armor/Seeker's till much later?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 14
Good evening (local time)/morning (West Coast time) Meddler, with all the discussion about Marksmen, Bot Lane and Opening it up, are there also talks about ADCs' DPS? Specifically, damage tosquishier targets vs. damage to tankier targets? Because it feels like that their current itemization gives them too much damage against the former, while being largely appropriate against the latter (in my opinion). Would a possible way to fix this discrepancy be to essentially give Infinity Edge a similar damage-to-true-damage conversion like the new Conqueror keystone, as a part of a crit's damage instead of the current increased overall damage?
In that example? Rengar, no sweat. Let's give Malphite at least equal gold to Rengar, since he is a laner, and have him itemize properly. Rengar has 2625 + 3500 + 1100 = 7225 gold, + at least Boots 1 for 7525 gold total. Malphite, with that gold, possibly has: {{item:3047}} {{item:3068}} {{item:3076}} {{item:3024}} {{item:3057}} {{item:1028}} for 7350 gold. In this example, Malphite sank virtually all of his gold into countering physical damage and Lifesteal. The game would be HEFTILY imbalanced if Rengar would win this 1vs1 without a major outplay.
ĵcker (NA)
: "i had 500 armor and twitch killed me in 3 autos," says the tank player "i had ldr and 300 ad and this mid laner is literally unkillable just because he bought tabis," says the adc player
Almost like the truth is somewhere in between those extremes...
: Pretty sure ADCs are slated for changes in 8.6 aren't they?
Yes. Rageblade is posed to become a lot worse as a first buy item, given that its passive now amplifies existing AP, AD and AS instead of giving flat stats. This hits Varus and Kog'Maw. Statikk Shiv is losing its damage bonus against minions, making it a lot worse at waveclear.
: > [{quoted}](name=ProfDrDeath,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=6G472GTv,comment-id=007c,timestamp=2018-03-10T10:59:24.955+0000) > > Hello Xenogenic, > > short question: Has Quinn's base AD adjustment been scrapped? Or is it simply not on the PBE yet? Not scrapped, no. Had a problem with my pipeline where those changes weren't properly flagged as needing to be submitted. Got it figured out today and they will be going live with the other changes
Thanks for looking into it. And for giving some TLC to our favorite Tag Team.
Rexxiee (NA)
: Can we get another kai sa hotfix buff? She's somehow flagged as a support, but her curve does not indicate her warranting buffs right now. It is still trending upwards as people learn to play the champion.
: Quinn Changes Coming Soon - Strike from the Sky!
Hello Xenogenic, short question: Has Quinn's base AD adjustment been scrapped? Or is it simply not on the PBE yet?
: thanks for the enlightenment but I have to ask about the "playing duskblade rather then your champ" point. Isn't there not enough assassin items to even change their builds like they still have to buy duskblade? Is there any possibility of them getting an additional item to give more flexibility?
If Duskblade is less of a required item/crutch (and more power is in the base champion's kit), its users can go for different items to emphasize different sets of strengths and play with these options. For instance, instead of rushing Duskblade, how about a Tiamat for some wave control? Or a Hexdrinker into Maw to enable you to brawl with your opposing mage?
: Some small but Impactful ADCS nerf on pbe
Even more on 3/8 PBE: - Shiv does 60-140 damage, down from 60-160. - Firecannon a bit buffed, deals 60-140 up from 50-120.
: Duskblade compensation...
Eedat (NA)
: Why is every single Duskblade compensation a nerf? You might've already seen Repertoir's post, but just in case, have a link. It is more recent than this post, but maybe you can put the link at the top to redirect the readers there?
: New Rageblade on PBE
Hmm. Rageblade definitely doesn't feel like it should be a rush item to me, so that's seems rather positive. I love, love, love this stacking paradigm for melees and ranged. This should work to not punish ranged users while enabling melees to use Rageblade better. It would be even more awesome if Rageblade's %-AD bonus worked as a seperate bonus to base and bonus AD, instead of applying to total AD - i.e., at 10% increased AD 50 base + 50 bonus AD would become 55 base + 55 bonus AD, instead of 50 base + 60 bonus. Sheen synergy, baby! {{champion:24}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:102}}
: Gonna try out a few rounds of changes this week most likely. And as always, my final decision will be based on the expressed desires of the most upvoted, most rage-fueled thread on the topic that pops up during that time.
Repertoir, genuine worries with this: - 8 stacks for ranged might be a little bit much. Is there a way to keep 6 stacks for ranged, but make it more efficient for melee users? For instance, with its live 48% AS, you could have 4 max stacks for melees (12% AS/stack) and 6 max stacks for ranged (8% AS/stack). Or could stack generation maybe be doubled on melee champion hit without a change in the number of stacks altogether? - This AD/AS only iteration could be too strong on Yi, Vayne and the like. Personally, I'd prefer keeping the AP on it as a price for those champions, especially for Vayne. Also, some intended users like Shyvana (who'd benefit from a more melee-friendly Rageblade) have been balanced specifically with AP in mind back in the day.
: Repurposing Juggernaut enchantment for jungling juggernauts
Sounds nice. To note: - The base AD increase possibly needs to be a named unique with Sterak's Gage.
: > [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G8oRAA4d,comment-id=0006000300000002000000010000,timestamp=2018-03-05T18:49:24.587+0000) > > Hold my beer ...what type of beer is it, and can I finish it? These are important questions.
In the parts of Germany I live in, we have this saying when you hand something to your friend: "Halt mal kurz." (Take it for a moment.). Whatever you handed that person is now her responsibility. Meaning, if I gave you a beer and said "Halt mal kurz.", you'd be free to drink that. And since it is Germany we're talking about, chances are high that you're going to enjoy the beer.
: Increase crit items by 250/300 gold.
Yes please. If you're refering to the completed crit items, that is. At the same time, retool Cloak of Agility to build out of BF Sword and Brawler's Glove and have it as an intermediate, somewhat efficient powerspike on the build path to Infinity Edge. Part of the problem, and why Riot made Crit items so stupidly cheap in the first place, is the fact that the crit ADCs are so completely binary - either they have a big crit item and a multiplier and own or they don't and suck.
: Infinity Edge Rework
That could certainly be a way to limit IE's power, especially for the opening Shiv crit. That being said, I wonder if Infinity Edge's Crit Damage Increase is still a necessity in today's League. I wonder what would happen if Riot gave it a more situational, non-target-agnostic effect and/or retired the item entirely.
: Ranged marksman autoattacks are too strong across the board.
If you want ADCs nerfed, how about giving some actually workable ideas instead of this bullshit? For instance, ADCs' damage at the moment is not only too high (due to 70/80% Crit builds), but also too target-agnostic - the nerfs to ArPen and shift towards 3-crit-item builds ever since preseason 6 made it that way.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 3
Seeing the first EU LCS game, what would you think about Banner of Command?
: We need a solution to the state of shielding in the game for sure. Whether that's shield popper, less shielding, less powerful shielding, shield mitigation, extra damage to shield, or a mix of several, we do need a solution.
Is shielding in general or shield stacking more of a problem, from your PoV? If the latter is true, would an item that damages all shields in parallel be a good option? For illustration, a target with 3 shields (100/50/25) takes 50 damage. The shield stacking buster item makes 50% of this damage apply again to every shield beyond the strongest. Meaning, after the attack resolved, the target would have 50/25/0 shield value left.
: If by “problem solved”, you mean completely gut the champion, then sure, that’ll fix it. Tristana has one of the worst base AS and AS scaling because she has such a strong steroid. If you make that steroid any different, then you *have* to conpensate on either (probably both) stats, which actually makes her stronger early game, which, if you haven’t noticed, isn’t sometning the playerbase wants. And what are you talking about Sivir needs people to get her steroid? All she has to do is be level 6 and press W. Ashe’s Ranger’s Focus works differently because she’s not a pure DPS characternloe Tristana is. She focuses on picks and team ultility more.
> worst base AS That's simply not true. Tristana's base AS is 0.656, which is at least medium high. Agree on the rest of your statement, though.
: Read the OP again. Towerdives. They exist and they are stupidly easy to pull off right now.
If you get tower dove at level 2 and don't get a double kill for it, that's on your head. You got noone to blame but yourself.
Riot Jag (NA)
: Changed it so additional ones are classified as DoTs. Still has good synergy with Gunblade but I don't think it's broken. If it becomes too strong I can nerf it but I'm not too concerned.
What does DoTs in this context mean? Does Gunblade's Omnivamp give reduced healing on damage over time effects? Because the tooltip only says: "This is 33% effective for AoE damage."
: Mages in Bot Lane: A Discussion
Mages don't need to bring the same tools as ADCs to be able to be taken botlane - that is a misconception that, if implemented, would simply supplant ADCs with mages and have no effect on opening up the meta otherwise. The reason for that is that most people, including this very thread, look at it from the wrong side - the basic premise for the ADC in the bot lane is not that these champions (specifically in that very position) is not that they bring sustained damage to take down tanks, towers and objectives to a team. That's their general power as a class, independent of their position on the map. No, the reason ADCs are situated as the usual gold-gaining partner in the duo lane is that their champion archetype (ranged champions with a focus on auto-attack damage) is the least negatively affected by sharing XP. Champions can generally be sorted, as far as their relative dependency on Gold and XP are concerned, on two axis: The first being their range of abilities and, more importantly, auto-attacks and the second being their general balance focus between abilities and auto-attacks. On the first axis, shorter-ranged champions, especially if they have a melee auto-attack, are more dependent on levels than their longer-ranged compatriots. The reason for this is that their lower range necessitates their movement into the enemy's sphere of influence to do their stuff, and thus open themselves up for all the nastiness that the enemy can throw at them. You can't hurt what you can't hit, after all, and that goes in both directions. Thus, shorter-ranged champions want that tankiness they can get from leveling up, especially since base stat growth is notably higher the lower your general ranges are to boot. Longer-ranged champions, on the other hand, have their range as their form of safety, and that seldomly changes significantly over the whole level range (only exceptions: Tristana, Kindred and Gnar). In addition, their defensive stat growth is lower anyways. Thus, longer-ranged champions are better suited for sharing experience from a defensive perspective. The second axis is where offensive prowess comes into play more strongly. Generally speaking, ability-focused champions are more dependent on XP than those who draw the bulk of their damage from auto-attacks. This is not only linked to base damage improvements with ability rank-ups, but also to the improved non-damage aspects - most skills get a combination of improved cooldowns, longer durations, better CC, better utility and better ranges with each skill point you put into them. While the damage increases can be duplicated by purchasing stats (meaning, gold), these secondary aspects cannot - in fact, things like shorter base cooldowns actually scale multiplicatively with purchased CdR! Auto-attack damage, on the other hand, does not scale as hard with XP. Only 3 out off the 5 factors that scale auto-attack damage are even affect by XP at all - critical strike chance and critical damage are both stats that can only be purchased with gold. Additionally, Resistance Penetrations is not universally affected by XP, too - it exists only on specific champion's kits. The combination of these two axis matters even more for ranged, auto-attack-based champions - what is usually known as Marksmen. Their longer-ranged nature means lower base stats, anyway - not only for defensive purposes, but also for offensive ones. For most Marksmen, the amount of AD they gain from 17 levels worth of XP is equalized by as little as 1300 gold - the cost of a single {{item:1038}} . AS gains from levels are very similar - average AS gain is about 51%, which is about 4.25 {{item:1042}} s' worth (1275 gold). And out of the class, none gets Armor Penetration with XP. This makes the class notably less affected by sharing XP if they have access to a whole gold stream. And it is the reason why the gold-gaining partner in a duo lane is usually a Marksman. ---- Now, should Riot open that position up for champions of different classes? Abso-frigging-lutely. This is a change that is very necessary for the game to evolve, as it would be a huge help to balancing out other classes. Since the bot lane position is usually occupied by a Marksman with his strength of sustained damage and tank/tower/objective taking, a good team comp would put a lot less emphasis on the same power from a different position - or, to put it differently, Juggernauts and Skirmishers who share sustained damage and tower/tank/objective taking as one of their class strengths become a lot less desirable. And that is why I don't think Riot should give bot lane mages the same strengths as Marksmen - because that doesn't fix the issue with the locked bot lane in the first place. Rather, Riot would ideally find a way for mages that are not sustained-damage based to express their strength in the bot lane - thus opening up teamcomps to go look for that sustained damage in other positions. ---- Now, this is just my opinion. But I'd bet dollar to donuts that, in the end, Riot's effort to open up the bot lane by different starting items only will result in a few patches of great imbalance and, after the resulting nerfs, of business as usual.
: A ton of those are short knockups combined with a longer stun that IS affected by tenacity. In particular you can totally utilize tenacity against Sion.
: It really isn't all that strict, so much as 100 AP is far too lenient. With the right runes, a single {{item:3072}} or even an {{item:3031}} can reach that threshold, and regardless of runes, either one alongside {{item:3036}}, which you should be building as an ADC anyway, or {{item:3026}} gets you there. Once more, it's more so that the AP requirements are just really low, but I don't see her going full mage such for that to be an issue.
Since Kai'sa only gets access to her better abilities based on stats from leveling and item buying, there is no "with the right runes". Runes do nothing for her.
: > [{quoted}](name=ProfDrDeath,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=6G472GTv,comment-id=002e,timestamp=2018-02-24T09:35:18.222+0000) > > Is this refering to all damage, or just non-champion damage? All damage. Anything besides minions hitting her during the channel or during her ult remove the movement bonus for 2 seconds, however, so hitting her repeatedly means she can't move faster.
: > [{quoted}](name=Gamer Gallade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LhWnYEzA,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-02-24T08:22:46.039+0000) > > The cancer that was full ap Trist. Ugh don't remind me the horror. > > A side from the healing reduction and being a shittier {{summoner:14}} > > Overall, she was losing her place in the game. I mean cuz her range used to scale over 1k
You're talking outta your ass... Her maximum range from season 1 to now was 707, back when she got +9 range/lvl and had 550 base. 17 x 9 = 153, 153 + 550 = 703. Now, that's still a lot of range, but far below 1k.
: Quinn Changes Coming Soon - Strike from the Sky!
> Channeling no longer breaks when taking damage Is this refering to all damage, or just non-champion damage?
: He already gets a shield. It´s durability enough.
And he can still nullify CC with W. Just not displacements.
: It's meant to replace {{item:3306}} so it could probably stand to build from {{item:2053}} Possible rework {{item:3067}} {{item:2053}} + 900g (2300g) 45 Armor 250 Health +150% base health regen 10% CDR Unique Passive: Point Runner Unique Passive: Allied units moving toward you gain 6% movement speed Unique Active: Grants nearby allied units +40% movement speed for 6s (60s cooldown) Compared to {{item:3306}} it would give +250 health, -25% health regen, and -2% speed on its ally passive for 100g more (and not requiring the quest for the passive).
That makes it far too similar to {{item:3800}} in stat profile , though.
: A Concern with the "Hashinshin" Situation
Except that toplane was already on their radar before Hashinshin's angry ranting became popular. They already started exploration into a more bruiser-friendly keystone back in December last year, with the experimental changes to Grasp of the Undying that were on the PBE for a short time. In the same timeframe, they already did a pass at improving the top lane situation a bit - most of the changes in patch 7.24B were aimed there, after all. So, I'd say that, aside from raising public awareness to the issues, Hash's posts had not much impact.
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