: Dude. Diana, Vayne, and Yasuo aren't assassins... Yasuo is actually nowhere close to an assassin. He _has_ to DPS you.
I'd assign Yasuo an assassin-like play pattern. He is not primarily classified as an assassin, that's certainly true, but he features quite a few similarities with the defining traits of the class: - High mobility - Target access - Fairly high burst at 2+ items, due to 100% crit chance and Statikk Shiv (with Statikk and IE at level 13, ~195 AD, in a 1.6 second window: 3 autos + 2 Q + E: 3 x 0.9 x 2.5 x 195 + 2 x 0.75 x 2.5 x 195 + 2 x 100 + 0.2 x 105 + 100 + 0.9 x 2.5 x 122 = 2643 damage - more than enough to kill a squishy (who usually does not exceed 1500 HP when Yas is level 13).
: AP Itemisation Context
Pitching some ideas here: - {{item:3802}} building into {{item:3027}} instead of Blasting Wand. Catalyst's old passive, which is now on Chapter, was a good part of its attractiveness for mid laners. - If {{item:3027}} is changed as above: Have {{item:3030}} build out of an additional {{item:3108}} , raise total price by 100 (50 combine cost) and give it 10% CdR. - {{item:3165}} 's dominance as a first item buy being broken. - {{item:3089}} : Price kept at 3800 gold, but introduction of a mid-tier (2000-2400) mini-Rabadon's. Alternatively, Rabadon's cheaper, but less powerful. - Exploration for a medium-AP waveclear item - medium AP, since you need to make a choice between waveclear and champion damage.
Tik115 (NA)
: ....but you still arn't touching Ardent...?
They removed the on-hit heal that was the most overpowered part of the item on 7.18 - as it allowed ADCs to completely forego Lifesteal. The reasons you still see a lot of AC: 1. First and foremost, it is highly visible in World's. Monkey see, Monkey do, so solo queue players pick it up a lot and rush it, even if it is not nearly as good anymore. 2. For enchanters, it is still a great first non-gold item - gives AP, Shield & Heal, CdR and MS for rather cheap. Other items are less suitable for rushing (Redemption scaling on Shield & Heal, Mikael's is MR in a lane dominated by AD champions, Locket is a tank option...).
: ? If you are overextended bot or top lane she can easily get behind you without getting near your tower. Only mid does she usually have to come from the side.
: Oh man I love it when they walk backwards, cuz I'm always behind them when I cast it ;)
That means you're in my tower - and, since you're Eve, you will not survive 2.5 seconds of tower focus, even with the peashooters we have. That reminds me, I sometimes wish that towers were more like Plants vs Zombies's Pea Shooter. Specifically, the Gatling Peas.
Rainfall (EUNE)
: Riot Not Going To Give Armor To Ap Mids
I strongy suspect that, sooner or later, Zhonya's Armor value will be buffed by 10 Armor or so (and Seeker's by 5).
: > [{quoted}](name=Toxic Control,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XN0aKM8K,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-10-16T04:16:33.081+0000) > > Kind of? > If you're reliant upon every single one of your stats, most certainly, and definitely if you're reliant upon abilities. It's why bruisers can't ever function bot, because too much is lost from lacking levels. > ADC's who primarily auto attack, however, aren't so reliant on level ups as most of the time if you're being properly peeled only two stats matter: attack damage and attack speed. Ahhh, suddenly it all makes sense now, the meta. I knew in general bruisers and mages wanted levels while ADC wanted items but now the exact reasons become clear.
Yeah. Bruisers (or melees in general) want levels for the survivability, as the tankiness you get from base stats is huge (tripling to quadrupling Armor and Health between levels 1 and 18), and they need to move into the enemy fire to apply most of their damage or utility. Conversely, ranged champions are not as dependent on XP for survivability, as range is a form of it as well (can't hurt what you can't hit) and range usually does not scale with XP (barring the obvious exceptions of Tristana, Twitch, Kog'Maw and Jinx).
Skorch (NA)
: I agree Ardent is a problem, but at the same time Riot has obviously showed they are trying to fix it. it has got like 3 nerfs, and also a nerf to coin to see if that would help bring ardent in line. Sadly the game is only patched every 2 weeks so if Riot doesnt want to COMPLETELY gut something it can be strong for like 2 or 3 months, which is a long time, but only actually 4 to 6 patches. Which when you think about it, isnt a lot of time to try to make changes other than "GUT"
The other thing is, even with the recent nerfs to the item, it will take time for the mindset of the player population to shift away from the Ardent Censer rushes. Especially since it is omnipresent in Worlds and pro play heavily influences what gets played by the general population. If we were to see regular LCS play on patch 7.19 or 7.20, we'd see way less complaints about Censer/Coin supports, given that the meta should shift away from them. Don't get me wrong, I still think that AC is a powerful item, but just a powerful item - not an overpowered item as it is on 7.18.
: I too am optimistic for the upcoming pre-season changes, though I should state it is discreetly held back by a certain amount of caution. This is an entirely new set of changes that, to the best of my knowledge, have not ever been had the same amount of "weight" if you will, to it than previous pre-season or even mid-season changes. I made a similar post stating some of my hopes that it would end the wondrous "ADC" meta we seem to be stuck in, and make other classes more viable again. I fully realize that when this hits, some new set-up, or multiple set-ups with all this variety, will most likely become the new "Meta build" and some class (Or multiple classes, even) will stand out as the strongest again, be it Tanks, Assassins, Mages, FIghters, or even some continuation of the ADC domination. But even if that happens, I hope that all the other classes won't be entirely pushed off to the side as it feels that has happened this season.
The last time there were changes with a similar impact was in preseason 3, when Riot completely overhauled itemisation, masteries and the jungle at the same time.
Meddler (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Tenth Leper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HLteJWwi,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-10-12T22:49:00.950+0000) > >I keep annoying my brother and our friends talking about it. Glad we've been able to help you with that! ;) On a more serious note I'm curious as to what's on your mind, particularly about the Press the Attack concerns, but also what about the other changes interests you.
The iteration of PtA currently on PBE has its associated questions, imo: 1. It is rather similar to Electrocute, being a 3-hit effect. It has less damage, sure, but also the general damage amplification that affects all sources of damage afterwards. Also, it lacks an on-target cooldown, meaning that the damage will just keep coming. 2. Unlike the previous iteration, it lends itself to a more bursty damage pattern - spiking on every third hit instead of getting an increase in DPS every hit. 3. I take it that it works somewhat like Vayne's W, where attacking a different target resets the counter? 4. It feels rather generic, being a 3-hit effect (another of these, really?) and a simple damage amplification. 5. The second effect being a generic damage amplification makes it hit squishies rather hard. Coupled with its bursty nature, it looks quite attractive on assassins. Would there be an argument for the second effect being adaptive penetration instead of a general damage amp?
: Frozen Heart would be more appealing if it provided health.
No. Not all Armor items for tanks need to provide Armor and Health at the same time. It is bad enough that all MR items do.
: So I've made a post about this a couple days ago and wanted to hear your thoughts on it Riot. With Runes Reforged coming, people have been theorycrafting on what runes to pick for their champions. From what I've seen, these new runes provides something new to champions like Assassins, ADCs, Fighters, Tanks, Roamers, Burst Mages, and Supports. However, I don't see Keystones which provides as much benefits to Sustained-Damage Mages such as Asol, Karthus, Vladimir, etc. **Press the Attack** only stacks on Basic Attacks. Some of these champions don't have hard CC so using **Arcane Comet** is unreliable. From videos I've seen, **Aerie** is mainly used on Supports and it still takes a while for Aerie to return, making its overall DPS fairly low. **Phase Rush** requires 3 SEPARATE abilities and/or basic attacks so it's better for burst champions, but even if it only requires one ability to hit the same target three times for the Keystone to kick in, it just got nerfed recently. So I was wondering if we will be able to expect something that can benefit these kinds of Champions as the new Keystones seem lackluster primarily to them. I even explored some of the Reddit pages for most of those Champions and I've been seeing their mains having trouble deciding which Keystone will benefit them.
Phase Rush was nerfed recently, but it also was confirmed that these numbers are not going to stay and are merely there to explore the lower bounds of the effect. In essence, Riot experimenting within a system that is still in the experimental stage.
: Should zeal items have unique passives?
That is one idea. The only issue with it is, how do you prioritize? First Zeal item bought? I am personally more of the opinion that it would be simpler to increase complete Zeal upgrades' cost to something like 2900-3000 gold. Basically, taking away the cheapness of a double Zeal build that makes ADC's IE+2 Zeal Upgrades build the currently least expensive three item spike.
: Designed. Wrong Before season 4 adcs picked up 3 straight ad items botrk and berserkers boots and one defensive item. Static Shiv and Trinity force were items for Master Yi Gangplank and Jax to use the movement speed. Adcs picked up more than 50% crit builds in season 4. After it being in season 3 worlds where they also dropped their defensive item then when solo que couldnt stay safe like the pros could after about 2 months of people crying out it wasnt fair, ad and crit items saw buffs and adcs saw increases to their hp and armor.
Are you deliberately trying to spread false information? Before the Marksman update, virtually all ADCs either build BT/IE/BotRK/Youmuu's into Statikk Shiv or Phantom Dancer or Triforce into IE/BotRK/BT/Manamune. Thereby getting their MS item first or second. And no, in season 4, most ADCs build less than 50% Crit Chance, actually, as they only build IE and Shiv for Crit - and those two together were only 40% Crit Chance. Building significantly more Crit than 50% is a thing since the Marksman update.
Escheton (EUW)
: Rune Reforged seems aggressively low on early tank stats and heavy on dmg, scaling and otherwise.
That's probably because most of the effects of the reforged runes are effects that you need to actively use to make the most of them. Meanwhile, resistances as such are reactive, meaning you buy them primarily as a reaction to stuff that occurs during the game. From this perspective, it makes sense to have runes be a lot about offensive effects that have a lot of choice in their use - even the big scaling effects require active choices in their use. However, a problem with that will be that, as runes offer a shitton of offensive effects, builds (and champions) will shift towards more defensive choices, simply for the reason that it is best to go for a balance in things.
: I really don't understand how Ardent Censer was allowed to make world patch.
In pro-play before World's (7.15 and 7.16 - playoffs and regional finals), Ardent Censer popped up with increasing frequency, but tank supports were still the major choice. Thus, Censer was not recognized to be as meta-warping as it truly is (or was, given 7.19's nerfs), and Riot simply pushed at numerical nerf to the item while not changing its functionality much (changing the AS boost and on-hit damage/heal from 20-35 to 25 flat) and thought (with good reason, at the time) that it would be enough to ensure that Censer will be powerful without being overpowered. The reason for this is that fully embracing the Ardent Censer support meta requires a complete shift in mentality for all lanes - Supports need to bring their Censer supports up to the A game ({{champion:40}} {{champion:117}} {{champion:497}} ){{champion:44}} ). ADCs need to switch to hypercarry ADCs full-time, foregoing the training for Ashe and the other utility carries. Junglers and tops needed to find picks to pick up the dimishment in engage potential from the shift away from tank supports. And teams needed the time to train all these elements together and get completely familiar with it.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 6
Meddler, with all the increases to base Armor as the compensation for runes, will there be changes to Armor Penetration items in the preseason? EDIT: Same for base AD increases and Sheen items.
: They are literally giving every champion the exact stats they got from 2 or 3 rune types, based on their most common rune setups. Mages didn't generally take armor runes, and instead went with scaling health, while most other champs went for the armor. This is putting champions pretty much at the exact same place they are, currently.
Not exactly the same place, though. There is a lot of difference between base AD and bonus AD (ability ratios, Sheen Damage, Sterak's) and between base Armor and bonus Armor (the latter is penetrated by LW, the former - not so much).
Abibyama (EUW)
: I lol at people saying season 5 was the best in terms of balance Towers were also shit Ranger's Trailblazer Runeglaive Ezreal Sated devourer/ Old Rageblade that used to give aoe Sejuani with like 65% winrate Fiona rework GP rework with 60% armor pen The good old juggernauts patch TP/Red smite cinderhulk shyvana top Kalista
: I don't think Seasons 1-3 was any more balanced than the game is now.
CaptainMarvelous? More like, Captain Obvious. ;) Jokes aside, a good way to put into words what everyone with a working brain should know. And nice finishing quote.
KoKoboto (NA)
: Than the next champions who can do well with little gold become more viable and we're still in the early game meta just with different stuff.
Maybe - but leaving the early game focused meta does require changes to more than a single lever.
: If that was the only issue, Yasuo would have been a common sight bot. He gains rather little benefit from levels whie he scales massively with gold. It also would be a rather easy issue to solve by adding xp shareing mechanics for the gp/10 items. THe main issue is that adc have a stupidly strong early due to their consistent AA harras and pushing, and the only thing that holds them back in sololanes is that they are somewhat vulnerable to all-ins and mostly ganks(there's a reason that in 1v1 tournaments, adc usually are the god tier pics). But this is where the support comes in and just denies those weaknesses, leaving support+adc near impossible to beat. If you design a champ that is strong enough in the early lane to take on adc in the duo lane, it's very likely that that champ becomes a monster in solo lanes, or that that earlygame is justifyed by falling off later while the adc just hyperscales. The natural strong earlygame of adc due to how potent ranged AAs are in the early lane paired with their inevitable godmode come to lategame makes them just a must have that is supperior to any other duolane.
Yasuo is melee - that alone makes him unsuited to sharing XP. Even more, his flow generation and shield strength (which are his passive defensive tools), windwall cooldown and E cooldown all scale rather well with champion level.
KoKoboto (NA)
: I don't think it's a problem of ADCs. It's a problem of early game meta. ADCs just take the most advantage because their a late game class but now have access to way too much gold early. If Rito changes the game to slow down ADCs will also slow down because they scale the best with the amount of gold and leads you can get in this early game meta.
It is less about the gold gain and more about how the cheap the ADC items have become. Revert the IE price decrease and make Zeal items 2900-3000 gold, and that problem should be taken care of.
: Reminder that ADC is the only role that's _mandatory_. Top has swung between tanks, fighters, melee carries, roaming assassins, even ranged cancer like Quinn. Supports have had enchanters, tank supports, and mage supports strong at different points. Mid has seen mages and has seen assassins, and the mages have been burst, DPS, artillery, utility etc. Jungle has been as diverse as top, with tanks, assassins, bruisers, and sometimes Malzahar and Twitch. Bot has always been _strictly_ ADC, save Morde and Ziggs. When it's a tank meta carry tops don't get played. When it's a mage meta assassins don't get played mid. When its an assassin meta ADCs are still played theyre just shitty to play, becsuse theyre mandatory. The first step to fixing the role is to make it non-essential.
Bot has strictly been ADC for a simple reason: These champions suffer the least efficiency drop when sharing XP. And Riot could (possibly even should) design a few new (and/or reworked) non-marksman champions with bot lane in mind. The issue with that is, you then hear the bitching and moaning of people who want to play the champion somewhere else. And designing a non-ADC for bot lane is not a piece of cake, either - they'll need to make the champion work well enough sharing XP while, at the same time, somehow restrict how said champion performs when have access to more XP.
Kloqdq (NA)
: Hey Meddler what are your thoughts of a rune that converted a turned active ability costs into HP costs after they run out of mana or meet some kind of requirement? Something to allow aggressive players to keep using abilities when they are low on mana/energy/etc but at the cost of health. Do you think something like that could work or nah? Also can you give me a hint on what Twisted Treeline ranked rewards will be??? :)
This sounds like an effect that could work better on a dedicated activated item instead of a rune. Maybe an alternative rush item for APs? And to work around the problems Meddler mentioned, maybe have it work on a semi-long CD - so it would be enough for the user to squeeze in one more spell, but not stay around forever.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 3
What else will preseason bring, aside from Runes Reforged? Will there be changes to: - AP itemization (Morellonomicon and how it is **the** dominant first item for mages and AP assassins alike) - AD itemization (more specifically, ADC itemization - as an ADC, I feel that my items have become too cheap right now) - Armor Penetration items (Armor is feeling a bit too strong, does the data correlate with this feeling?) - Jungle XP (Obviously, you said there will be changes to the jungle - could Catch-up XP be tuned in a way to actually be a catch-up mechanic for those horribly behind, instead of a safety net that takes a lot of risk out of ganking?) - Tower Power and Game Pacing Also, concerning Runes Reforged itself: Is there any discussion that the new Runes might be skewed heavily towards offensive effects and health? There is only a single slot that gives additional resistances - is that because of their reactive nature? And if there is a lot of offensive stuff in runes, do you expect/worry that the optimal play with that background is to go for a more defensive focus in the champion and item choices?
: Runes are just fine for AP. The primary problem is just that some are undertuned as hell. Cheap shot is infinitely inferior to sudden impact. Scorch is a joke numerically, pigeonholing even early game mages into the late game oriented Gathering Storm. Celerity is much worse than Transcendence but (unlike EVERY other role!) AP mages struggle to hit the CDR cap, let alone have their builds threatened by chronic overcapping (thanks kindlegem), so they're all forced into Absolute Focus. Mages are the class most gated by Mana, so the vast majority have to take manaflow band instead of Nullify Orb or Ult Hat. Domination and Sorcery are both completely serviceable for AP, and precision is a valid secondary. The problem is that a lot of "choice" is eliminated either because one option is so vital or overtuned it must be taken or another option is so undertuned people end up taking the option that's better in sheer numbers even though it doesn't fit their playstyle.
Transcendence is still very good on APs, even without its effect on overcapping on CdR. Between it, Morellonomicon and Blue Buff/Zhonya's/Banshee's, any mage will be able to fill all their CdR needs.
: 90.00 Attack speed Jinx.
Not a bug, and not attainable in live gameplay as it requires stacking her passive to much more than 5 stacks.
: "Or sustained damage needs (basically AP Black Cleaver)" Two things. Number 1 - the original {{item:3001}} rework involved transforming it into basically an MR Sunfire Cape that reduced the MR of nearby targets with each burst, stacking a few times. So Riot has already tested a potential AP Black Cleaver and found issue with the idea. Two - If sustained mages weren't already doing their jobs quite effectively, Riot would never have introduced {{item:3194}} . Tanks have been complaining that MR is too burst-oriented and does not do enough to prevent sustained magic damage for 4 seasons now. Sustained damage mages have enough power in their kits, they don't need a special item. "Tank-busting (% bonus pen)" - Tanks are intended to absorb burst. They are intended to basically swallow a mage's rotation and come out alive. The mage's job is not to kill tanks, it's to kill everyone the tank is body-blocking for. Juggernauts and divers will usually only have one MR item ({{item:3156}} /{{item:3065}} ) and assassins are supposed to kill mages if they manage to close the gap. The mage has to peel for themselves and soften the assassin up at range in order to kill them. "More flat pen" - This would not affect mages nearly as much as it would affect AP assassins. Penetration over ability power favors champions with high base damage and low AP ratios, which are assassins. In particular, in a world where MR pen is powerful early and easy to stack, I foresee the return of assassin Elise. And we have a brand new Evelynn to contend with as well. AP assassins do need their own itemization update (not as much as divers) but let's not pretend that flat penetration is something that would be a 'mage' item. Flat penetration would give up AP. You'd see flat pen items that had 40 or 60 AP (like old Liandry's before Riot just decided to flat buff the item so _someone_ would buy it) and other passives to make up for them, and no mage would touch them because they value their ratios too much. High AP values should not be matched with CDR - They're not. And this is important. Battlemages currently have low AP high sustained damage CDR options in items like {{item:3100}} and{{item:3152}} but they are **choosing** the higher AP options over those. That's not because the CDR options aren't good. They're amazing. Mages of all stripes just prefer raw damage output.
> High AP values should not be matched with CDR - They're not. In general, I'd agree with that. However, there is the issue with {{item:3165}} : 100 AP + 20% CdR, and makes mana problems nearly nonexistant at the same time. With that background, I agree with the notion of needing diversified first items for mages. However, before introducing all new items, Riot could take a look at the existing ones: {{item:3027}} {{item:3030}} and {{item:3165}} are the usual suspects for starting items. And with a small buff to the first two and a small nerf to the third, mage itemization could be in a way better place. My starting point would be to elucidate how the game would react if: - {{item:3027}} build out of {{item:3802}} (with or without inheriting the passive) - and/or build from {{item:3108}} and gained 10% CdR (Rod builders usually are rather starved for CdR compared to Morello's users) - {{item:3030}} had 10% CdR on the completed item - {{item:3165}} lost 20 AP or required more substantial investment (3100-3200 gold total and building out of {{item:1026}} ).
TEA RANT (EUW)
: Support: there are no 'AD' supports and frankly I don't think supports should be crowded out by champions that build AP heavy - it's never been healthy in the past. ADC: it doesn't make sense to lump in ADC's with AD casters - they don't really share itemization in a positive sense, it's more that ADC's have the tendency to abuse and take over AD caster items - examples are: Bloodthirster (s3 RIP Bloodthirster), Ghostblade (rip AS), Black Cleaver (ADC's forced it to become more of a Juggernaut item), Trinity Force (AS changes in S5 I think), Deaths Dance (AD spellvamp gets used by AS based champions, thanks..). There are neither AD nor AP casters in that position. Midlane: AP and AD casters with AD casters being superior overall. Jungle: Tanks > Fighters > AD casters > AP casters Toplane: Tanks > Fighters = AD casters Note: I think comparing AD casters to AP casters makes more sense than comparing either to ADC's, supports, tanks or Fighters. AD casters are essentially assassins and certains skirmishers like Riven - they do not build tanky or AS based, their damage relies on their abilities.
{{item:3812}} is not AD spellvamp, though. It is healing based on 15% of physical damage dealt. Meaning, ALL physical damage. And in a game where the only higher achievable Lifesteal (which is still limited to auto-attacks) is only 20%, Death's Dance is a viable (and about equally priced) alternative for AD carries that value 10% CdR more than 5% Lifesteal.
YuGiHo (NA)
: How good Is trinity on vayne Now?
Not that great. Vayne has far too low base AD for Triforce to be really worth it.
Meddler (NA)
: We generally changed names where something about how you used the rune fundamentally changed. Name changes have been shown in the past to help players identify the need to reread tooltips and change behavior (e.g. can't proc Thunderlord's with one spell anymore on many champs or can't burst for Stormraiders). Grasp kept its old name because even if you never read the new tooltip and assume it works like the old exactly you won't make any major mistakes. Warlord's Bloodlust got renamed because we're looking to open it up to AP builders as well and want to get people to reassess it too. That one was a borderline case though, given for many users it is exactly the same.
Is it a borderline case, though? Fleet Footwork is more about the MS boost, whereas the heal is stronger early (base value) and weaker in the late midgame and onwards - before, you'd heal for up to 40% of your AD, whereas now the heal is limited to up to 50 + 10% of your bonus AD. To put it differently, the old heal was better if your bonus AD was bigger than - (4/3) x (Base AD -125). Also, it no longer seems to interact with crit. So, I'd make the argument that, under your premise of fundamental changes, a name change is justified.
: I agree that DFT shouldn't just flat out be copy pasted into the new system as currently it's very unintuitive and just feels like "Additional damage on my spells". Granted it's great as the damage adds up, especially on low CD spells like the ones Mordekaiser, Malz and Karthus have. Wouldn't something akin to Press the attack be something worth considering though if DPS mages do end up with lackluster rune options? It could be adaptive too as every tree seems to be open for every kind of champion but precision kinda feels like it's just adc exclusive.
Not ADC exklusive, but (mostly) AD exclusive - and only as a primary tree.
Sukishoo (NA)
: >Like, how did this even get past PBE? Because that's not at all how any of this works? PBE has a very limited pool of players so a lot of stuff goes unnoticed. It's going more for BUGS these days rather than Balance.
And they pretty much said that they already had some hotfixes for Janna in the pipeline if she turned out too strong. Add the improved tools for hotfixing, and you see why they thought they could release the changes as is and deploy the hotfixes as required. Too lazy to find the sources now.
: The Brand buffs are a return of the changes they were testing last patch, and if everything goes well, will likely hit live in a few weeks. The +5/10 increases on spells are part of the runes changes, and those are going to be on the PBE till November. They can't just dump everything at once.
And maybe they are more confident in the runes for ADs right now, meaning that the AD runes will not require as much further changes. As such, they can proceed with the predicted adjustments to AD champions. Meanwhile, if they are not as confident in the AP department, it would not make sense to start touching the AP champions.
Meddler (NA)
: Yeah, there's some risk of that. We'd like Kleptomancy to be one of multiple options for supports, not a mandatory choice. Approach we'd probably take if needs be would be to reduce the raw gold income and put power instead into looted items in ways that aren't as mandatory for supports (e.g. more temporary combat elixirs or something similar).
Concerning Kleptomancy: Is it tuned in a way that, if you used it on a manaless champion, it will not give you Mana Potions?
Thalía (NA)
: AD itemization is just ridiculous right now.
No amount of Armor and Health will EVER allow you to survive against the full focus of an entire team.
: It's not awful at all, though. It has the same level 1 base damage as Electrocute, is only gated by being near a unit's death (rather than a cooldown), and it stacks pretty fast (10 for champions, 2 for large jungle monsters, and 4 for large minions). You don't even need to do the killing or even get an assist on champions! Heck, this makes counterjungling way interesting! Get vision on the enemy jungler and move in on them while they're doing a camp. If they kill the big one before you get there, jump in, grab the free orb, and slap them for a bunch of extra damage. If it's still alive, steal the camp, grab the orb, and slap them for a bunch of damage _again_! It also makes it much more dangerous for the enemy to counterjungle _you_, since you're walking around with a permanent damage buff of at least 60-100 burst damage. Clear your jungle 3 times in the game? 36 extra damage? At least nearby for 10 kills? 100 extra damage. Happened to be ganking/pushing a turret/whatever and 10 cannon minions died near you? 40 extra damage. All added up? 176 bonus plus 100 base plus scaling for easily over 300 damage in the late game, which you can proc multiple times a fight.
5 for large minions. And a more important thing to note: Currently, on PBE, both enemy and allied large minions give a soul. Meaning, 10 souls per cannon wave.
: > [{quoted}](name=PopcornBunni,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZRUIAtrO,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2017-09-27T23:56:29.792+0000) > > Bloodthirster got more AD, Shiv deals more damage, {{item:3035}} got effectively better by reducing tanks to the same amount of armor while tanks have less health from their items, {{item:3026}} became tailor-fitted for adcs, all at the same time. > > And remember before Trist and Twitch were reaming faces, adcs were building full lethality because of how broken {{item:3147}} was (and still is), just insta gibbing as ranged assassins. > > The problem is aboslutely in ADCs. Ardent could be removed entirely and the ADC would still be destroying teams in a second-and-a-half with {{item:3087}} {{item:3031}}, followed up with just having to build their own lifesteal to become draintanks outhealing and ignoring {{item:3075}} completely with 1.5 lifesteal items. Are we playing the same game? The reason we didn't have an assassin meta was because around the same time Duskblade got reworked, tank items were added and/or tweaked. These items made tanks super strong and made assassins irrelevant because of the massive amount of shielding and ADCs became good because the only champions that are particularly strong against tanks are armor shredders, especially high DPS low tankiness targets who get a lot of stats from said tanks. ADCs are just as much picked based on who is strong as they are an indicator of their own environment, and although Twitch (as an outlier) has been running around for a few months, the entire shift to hypercarries ONLY is indicative of what happened with itemization. I guarantee you now that there's less shielding assassins will be capable of blowing them up much more easily again.
Plus, {{item:3035}} and its upgrades are rather underwhelming, currently. By reducing their penetration values while putting more emphasis on resistances on items, Riot effectively made higher damage non-LW builds on ADCs more desirable. If you get equal or slightly diminished damage against the tanks from a non-LW build as you get from a build with LW, then why go for LW at all? Most ADCs would then rather have the higher damage against all targets, not just the tanks.
Kaìju (NA)
: Marksmen have much lower base AD. Ashe end game as an example has about 105-110 AD base, but people like Darius and Illaoi have about 140. Plus only a few marksmen can make use of Sheen effectively. You would not see a Cait with it.
Plus, the Sterak's shield scales with HP nowadays. Without additional HP, Bloodthirster is superior for ADCs for only 500 gold more.
Seen (NA)
: Watch ADC abuse it.
I can only really see three ADCs abuse it: {{champion:202}} {{champion:42}} {{champion:429}} . Those three have the (hilariously high, for their class) base AD to make use of it - and in Corki's case, are naturally inclined to go Triforce as well.
: I'm not Afic, but I am also a pretty big Quinn player on the Playtest team. As far as why Quinn has a scaling AD ratio on Q, there's a variety of reasons, including the ones you mention - there's others as well, like discouraging E max and allowing her to have high potential damage lategame (especially in combination with the large W steroid), both burst and sustained. I'd say the main argument against having a fixed AD ratio on Q is that Quinn is already a champion that is extraordinarily strong 1v1 and very difficult to actually engage on, especially as a melee. Making the AD ratio on Q fixed is a substantial buff to E max, which would make Quinn even more miserable to lane against than she already is, since it punishes interaction so hard (she's already one of the most undesirable champions to lane against toplane, for good reason). If E max is then discouraged (e.g. by making E a fixed cooldown that doesn't scale down with ranks), then suddenly Quinn has no skill to max that is impactful in the earlygame, which likely means Quinn doesn't function as a champion. Having a scaling ratio on the Q does limit Quinn's viability botlane since it ties her power pretty hard into levels, but I'd say it's the best solution to an unfortunate problem. Quinn's scaling AD ratio on Q is there because of her kit, not because of any rune choices or other out-of-game optimization, and I think it's very unlikely to change.
I see. Thanks for the answer. Thought something along these lines might be the reason, but I hoped that there might be a different thing behind that scaling ratio. Guess I just prefered the less bursty version of Quinn, the one that was based around a bit more sustained combat and skirmishing.
: hmm, yea everyone does basically get highlander for free. Guess we can just straight remove it from Yi's kit now :^)
Afic, since you're a Quinn afficionado (iirc): Can you elaborate on why her Q has a scaling AD ratio? Is it to limit early snowballing? Because the way I see it, the downside of that scaling ratio is that it forces you to max that ability ASAP, both impacting her build variety and her viability in the bot lane (because you want as much XP as possible). In light of the preseason changes to runes (reduction of starting AD and starting Lethality), would it be plausible to flatten the ratio to the same at all ranks and adjust the base damage accordingly?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 26
Hello Meddler: Three questions regarding Preseason and Champion adjustments: 1. You said you'd want to do base stat adjustments to champions. Will you keep in mind that, with base Armor increases, the relative effectiveness of Last Whisper and its upgrades is going to change? 2. In the same vein, I notice that the new rune paths lack increases to AD unless you go Sorcery or Domination. How will a champion that gets Precision or Resolve compensate for the loss of AD to assist in last-hitting stuff? 3. Concerning a specific champion, Quinn {{champion:133}} : Could I point toward her scaling AD ratio on Q as a possible point of adjustment? At the moment, she is forced to max Q due to its AD ratio scaling from 80% total AD to 120% total AD (that XP dependency is another point that pushes her away from botlane). Would it bear thinking about, in light of the preseason reductions to available AD and Lethality, to flatten that ratio to not scale and adjust the base damage accordingly?
Rioter Comments
: Current runes grant 8.5 - 15.3 flat AD unconditionally, along with 14.85 - 25.56 flat AP, besides the scaling damage numbers, which can go around twice those values at level 18. Attack speed usually ranges from 15.3% to 28.8% under the current system. The new runes grant much less direct power, granting only up to 15.8 flat AD, 22.25 flat AP, or 18% AS, all while sacrificing the 9 armor or 98 health in the process. They also lose out on lethality, magic penetration, and [scaling] magic resist, and have to spec into the non-combat rune path to get these numbers. The end result is damage dealers doing near the same or worse damage while tankier characters are relatively tankier from the direct defensive stats provided by the Resolve path and the 205 bonus health from speccing into Inspiration and taking Celestial Body.
Also, reminder that Runes and Masteries are rolled into one. Meaning, you also lose the damage from masteries...
: Alternatively, get {{item:3193}} to have a 72 second CD instead of a 90 second CD - http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/featured/preseason-update/8400-8437?build=30220326
Asudurga (NA)
: Uhm...what?
Sounds worse than it is. Remember, it is like Vayne's Silver Bolts. The attacker needs to stay on target, or he'll lose all progress.
: Grasp of the Undying [ RUNE ]
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/featured/preseason-update/8400-8437?build=30220223 Ultimate Cho Runepage. Grasp and Overgrowth for more HP. Transcendence and Ultimore for (duh) more ults. EDIT: Alternatively: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/featured/preseason-update/8400-8437?build=30220004 Ult less often, but if Warmog's works with Overheal...
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ProfDrDeath

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