iDarkWind (EUW)
: You talk as if he needed to land his Q and E and like it was extremly hard to perform. It wasn't, and neither it was fundamental to suceed on him. He didn't offer any counterplay because he was a Drain Tank Auto Attacker that could heal off minions too. If he somehow could win the trades while on top of that sustain of creeps, then yes, he literally had no counterplay whatsoever. Using other problematic champions as an excuse to justify his existence isn't a good argumentation at all. You don't resolve on problem by saying there's even a bigger one around the corner. And you don't talk about my rights of talking about balance when anyone with brain can see how flawless is the logic of your response. I am not even surprised that you got more upvotes than me, it's Board's after all. Must, if not all, of your point of view is completly realiant on your opinion and not facts. Saying that anyone with a BT could outheal Aatrox, for example, is completly stupid, because you're comparing someone that wasted 3600Gold to someone who gets it for free on his quit. Also, no they wouldn't outheal Aatrox, it depends on the scenario. You're just a mad lad that wants his stat stick Aatrox back. Accept the reality and move on.
> [{quoted}](name=iDarkWind,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vh6WrATY,comment-id=003100010001,timestamp=2019-12-09T10:06:49.569+0000) > > You talk as if he needed to land his Q and E and like it was extremly hard to perform. It wasn't, and neither it was fundamental to suceed on him. > He didn't offer any counterplay because he was a Drain Tank Auto Attacker that could heal off minions too. If he somehow could win the trades while on top of that sustain of creeps, then yes, he literally had no counterplay whatsoever. > > Using other problematic champions as an excuse to justify his existence isn't a good argumentation at all. You don't resolve on problem by saying there's even a bigger one around the corner. > > And you don't talk about my rights of talking about balance when anyone with brain can see how flawless is the logic of your response. I am not even surprised that you got more upvotes than me, it's Board's after all. > > Must, if not all, of your point of view is completly realiant on your opinion and not facts. Saying that anyone with a BT could outheal Aatrox, for example, is completly stupid, because you're comparing someone that wasted 3600Gold to someone who gets it for free on his quit. Also, no they wouldn't outheal Aatrox, it depends on the scenario. > > You're just a mad lad that wants his stat stick Aatrox back. Accept the reality and move on. oh the lies in this is glorious :D. Time to break down your straw man one by one. "You talk as if he needed to land his Q and E and like it was extremly hard to perform. It wasn't, and neither it was fundamental to suceed on him." his q was actually the longest delayed dash in the game and has one of the smallest hit boxes for a knock up proving this as false. his e also was one of the slowest moving projectiles and was the ONLY projectile ever with a reverse cone (cones spread as they go out... his got thinner) it is also worth pointing out these where needed because otherwise aatrox would be kited to hell and unable to heal (try play jax without the q see how easy it is) "He didn't offer any counterplay because he was a Drain Tank Auto Attacker that could heal off minions too" "he didnt offer counterplay" ummm... have you heard of the 2nd most popular summoner spell in the game called {{summoner:14}} ? also he couldnt have more counterplay in his kit if you tried. extremely delayed spells. melee and no cheese mechanics like stealth. as to address the healing off minions. lets go though evey champ that does that. *cough* {{champion:266}} {{champion:103}} {{champion:84}} {{champion:12}} {{champion:69}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:60}} {{champion:9}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:120}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:10}} {{champion:141}} {{champion:203}} {{champion:57}} {{champion:11}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:76}} {{champion:56}} {{champion:20}} {{champion:2}} {{champion:497}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:107}} {{champion:235}} {{champion:37}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:517}} {{champion:48}} {{champion:23}} {{champion:8}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:19}} {{champion:5}} {{champion:83}} {{champion:154}} but I totally see what you mean its not like the first item you can get in the game doesnt provide healing. {{item:1054}} {{item:1055}} and healing with autos is extremely hard to buy {{item:1053}} and the is totally no good items it goes into end game {{item:3072}} {{item:3812}} {{item:3153}} {{item:3146}} {{item:3074}} {{item:3181}} plus lets no address the issue that one cc (didnt even have to be a hard cc) completely fucked aatrox. {{champion:17}} blind countered you hard enough as it was but do you honestly think if you engage on him ur not gonna get a shroom in the face as he walks away with twice your movespeed trying to kit you? lets not even go for a hard counter lets go for a generic mage. First 5 generic mages in alphbetical order because i cba to search. {{champion:103}} charms his he cant get autos he used his engage and cant escape so ahri can use her q movement speed or R is she REALLY needs to. {{champion:34}} q, wall, done. {{champion:1}} e makes her to tanky and she does stun and walks away. {{champion:136}} maybe the only one here aatrox could relieably kill if he doesnt have ult. second this drake has ult aatrox got 0 chance. {{champion:268}} fuck off wall, triple dash, kit from range you get the point. nearly every mage can do this to aatrox, nearly every adc can buy a BT and generally heal for more cause healing on a 1200 crit for 20% is generally more for healing 6.5% missing hp every 3 autos. and supports are kind of known for making big scary characters easy to deal with though kiting. that leaves tanks. oh no the tanks have no choices to deal with aatrox. {{champion:33}} Hi im rammus with a built in thornmail. {{champion:54}} hi im malphite who can fuck your attack speed. {{champion:31}} hi im cho i can cc lock you and burst you. {{champion:122}} hi i can sustain as well for percentage missing hp and dunk you. Group: oh and we all have access to {{item:3075}}. Aatrox was an underdog for so many years cause he was countered by literally every role expect no cc no escape carries. but then again nearly everything kills them. "And you don't talk about my rights of talking about balance when anyone with brain can see how flawless is the logic of your response. I am not even surprised that you got more upvotes than me, it's Board's after all." umm you realize aatrox was so bad he was a meme and the is literally tens to hundred of videos about him being shit? just youtube some. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTKsYaZ0088 "Must, if not all, of your point of view is completly realiant on your opinion and not facts." 10s to 100s" of videos :D stream records of pros opinion on aatrox. Being so bad he was used by pros to insult the games they think they have no chance of losing like manamune aatrox. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HOfdQ_MXS0 "Saying that anyone with a BT could outheal Aatrox, for example, is completly stupid, because you're comparing someone that wasted 3600Gold to someone who gets it for free on his quit." all i hear is "why do i as {{champion:1}} have to buy ap and a void staff when {{champion:31}} gives him true damage and a bigger base damage and infinite scaling" plus lets go with your logic. ok aatrox is the best healing champ in the game... so what :D? his healing relies on him doing autos. the are tens of thousands a game a day where laners get zoned from minons and cant cs or sometimes even get hp for aatrox this stops his ults. plus healing does not help you burst. healing a large amount only helps when the enemy is a low dps character who cant out damage your healing (which is very fucking easy. pretend you have 4000 hp and you have 1 remaining. your w heals for the AMAZING amount of ... 259.935 hp. devide this over the 3 autos he takes to do this means he heals for 86 hp on each auto. Also {{champion:420}} in a gank. if she is by one passive gets an e into a simple 2 person ult (her laner and the enemy jungle) this will take her to 4 tentacles. procing one slam on one target. would lead her to getting 4 instances of 5% missing hp healing. and remember after ulting her w cd is halved making 6 seconds at rank 5 * 0.6 for cdr taking it to 3.6 which it will then be halved to 1.8 seconds. So point A aatrox is no where close to the best champion for healing. B ever if he was so what? he is the best thing at something that A doesnt win you the game B doesnt win you lane but just allows you to back a little less often... ok... oh btw for fun you said "Saying that anyone with a BT could outheal Aatrox, for example, is completly stupid, because you're comparing someone that wasted 3600Gold to someone who gets it for free on his quit."{{item:1053}} providing 10% lifesteal. means for a 4000 hp aatrox (aatrox LITERALLY never got this much life he cant due to his core items) at 1 health. healing for a total of 86 per auto means an adc needs to do a total damage in one auto of 860. Im sure i dont need to point out how common it is for adcs to do and for adcs like {{champion:202}} {{champion:222}} {{champion:51}} to easily crit for 1500+ however if they complete the item to {{item:3072}} they need to do half that damage. for goal of 430 damage. per auto. so yes an adc with a bt heals more on average then aatrox with impossible levels of health procing his w on no hp. "Saying that anyone with a BT could outheal Aatrox, for example, is completly stupid, because you're comparing someone that wasted 3600Gold to someone who gets it for free on his quit." someone clearly never fucking played him :D if aatrox was a stat stick he rolled snake eyes on every check.
Rioter Comments
: realistically he had a small number of players however the few of us that did play him often really did enjoy everything about the champ (aside from q being stoppable for most of his existence) the thing about new aatrox is he feel too 1 dimensional. you really just build the same few items play the same role each game and just land you 3 q's and its nearly a 100% kill on quishys ect. old aatrox you would change how you built every game based on your laner because of how weak he was you HAD to adapt to even stay in the lane and not hard int. to me that was fun when you had a wall to climb to get the rewards. to the items that made him borderline game breaking prior to them becoming his bread and butter many aatrox players felt he was in a great state with the rework stuff. not quite the old him but still useable and fun. AD caster role he fills now feel more like a riven clone that heals and has broken knees with how poor his mobility is without ulting.
Yeah what I hate most about new aatrox is old aatrox was designed to be an underdog. his e was a terrible catching tool but an awesome running away one. old aatrox getting more healing as he got lower was designed to make him be an underdog where as all the champs now are just "how can i land my combo so i can win" "umm we designed aatrox q but its a got a delay so how can we make him hit it?" "umm add a dash to his E sir?" "good good but now his 2nd q how do we make him hit that" "well we could give all his Qs a knock up and he could chain the knock up from his first one to land his second one?" "Thats amazing jerry but what about the 3rd?" "umm we could make his w be a chain that slows and also pulls people to its exact location so he basically cant miss it" "Jerry here are my keys drive my car to my house and fuck my wife also you are promoted"
iDarkWind (EUW)
: First thing I wanna point out is: Suddently after the rework everyone cares about Aatrox, loved him and even played him on regular basis. The statistics do not show that howeveer, wich is kinda funny. But let's move on. **The new Aatrox is completly different from the old Aatrox.** This is a fact and I won't be denying it when explaining my opinion on this subject. With that said: The Aatrox rework was spectacular, the concept is amazing, the lore is amazing and his overall design is good. This is a very controversial opinion to most of the community in this thread as far as I've read, however, it is my opinion. Old Aatrox could never ever been balanced. If you guys point out that before he got his rework he was meta and was actually a good champion, you guys clearly didn't pay attention: What made him strong before he got reworked was the synergy between {{item:3748}} + {{item:3124}} wich made him too strong for his own good, and he didn't offer counterplay at all. The idea of an AutoAttacker being a drain tank could never be balanced. He would be either useless or extremly strong. If you guys do not believe me, just check his stats over the course of league's history. With that said, Riot didn't had any other option other than removing the playstyle of an AutoAttacker Drain Tank. The idea of changing him to an AD Caster was mostly because they wanted to keep the concept of him being a Drain Tank. They focused on his Drain Tank identity rather than his Auto Attacker identity, and for me it made completly sense. Not only they removed his one dimensional gameplay, but also increased his skill floor by a lot wich allows them to reward players that suceed on him and played him right, while being extremly punished if they missplayed. I've gotta admit though that when Aatrox came right after his rework, I wasn't satisfied with how his Passive / E / R worked back then, but after some changes and with the introduction of his R duration reset, the low cooldown E with one charge only and his passive providing some extra sustain instead of burst damage, to me, Aatrox was extremly fun and a rewarding champion if you punt some time to learn him.
"didnt offer counterplay at all" and you have literally removed all your rights to talk about balance. his entire kit was counterplay on a stick. even with aatrox own slow applied even if he put the q exactly in the center of your champion. you could walk out of it.... without boots. also lets address that to land his e was an extremely slow moving skillshot that got thinner so moving to the side was more effective vs this skillshot then every other skillshot in the game. there his active abilities disproven. lets address the R (wow stat buffs that... increased his range and attack speed) "and no damage?" well it was a small burst of 400 which with just 25 armor gets 20% of his damage took away taking it down to an annie q qith no ability power (scary). I should point out here thresh has the lowest level 18 armor with 28 making the damage from his r... the worst part about it... so his R makes autos slightly easyier to land but infinity harder then i dont know... being an adc? and his w is on hit damage that was so low it was never considered using expect for the closest of encounters and just stayed as extra lifesteal (so extreme). also I wont even address his passive because everyone knows that was the worst part about his kit. Also they completely failed at him being a drain tank a draven who rushes BT normally outheals an aatrox today. And the reason the few of us that played Aatrox are so vocal now... is cause the is literally no champ to replace him. "oh no {{champion:1}} was deleted from the game if only the was another land one hard cc then proceed with burst combo character in the game *cough {{champion:103}} {{champion:34}} {{champion:63}} {{champion:69}} {{champion:60}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:74}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:127}} {{champion:518}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:61}} {{champion:134}} {{champion:163}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:115}} {{champion:142}} {{champion:143}} *". where as whats the replacement to aatrox? being {{champion:24}} simply because he has a 3 hit passive and a dash? jax is about cheesing with a stun and bursting your target before the the stun even wears off different to aatrox. ok so excluding that the closest champ is {{champion:36}} and are you really gonna argue mundo is a replace for old aatrox?
mack9112 (NA)
: Old Aatrox had a kit that was not balancable from a competitive point of view. I know it sucks. But that is the reality of evolving games with progressing player skill caps.
easily disprovable. Aatrox kit q has small knock up zone and a delay it was easy for people in solo q to dodje let alone pros with basically 0 ping. his passive was classed as the most useless part about him for years because you couldnt decide when to proc it also you could not move during it meaning it just wasted an extra 2-3 seconds on average (SO COMPETITIVE). his w damage was extremely lackluster and keep in mind the point where aatrox was considered op was season 3 with perm banned kassadin. 100% pick ban rate on zed at worlds and corkie destroying bot lane with shen top. The only reason aatrox was considered Decent at the time is because when shen taunted him he would still be being noticeably tankier in this one interaction then other champions (SO COMPETITIVE). his e doesnt even need addressing (wow a very slow moving skillshot that got thinner and had a small slow applied (SO COMPETITVE!) and his ult was a stat buff these have LITERALLY never been a factor in pro play (SO COMPETITIVE!)
: I'd kill to have old Aatrox back tbh. Don't get me wrong I love the current Aatrox, but if they're just going to keep gutting him for the rest of the game, I'd rather have the old Aatrox back, even if he was shit he was still way more fun then the current iteration.
well if your willing to kill... i am sure some hostages would surely have a bit more pressure then boards post just throwing that out there. I "do not" encourage using violence to get your way at all. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
: Revert Aatrox
he was never broken riot just couldn't be bothered with him cause he doesn't sell skins like {{champion:103}}. Its a prove fact they balance around skin sales and worlds viewer count over solo queue and aatrox didn't fill either. Pretending Aatrox was unhealthy for the meta when at the time we had zed with a 100% pick ban at worlds. shen deciding the top meta the entire season with a 96.8% pick ban at worlds. corkie with a 93.7% pick ban at worlds, and zyra with a 76.2% pick ban is kind of a joke. This was the time Aatrox was considered "op" and he achieved... a 56.8% pick ban rate... pretty much as average as it got. Pretending Aatrox was unhealthy to balance back then but currently has the highest pick rate of all top laners and the lowest winrate in plat + games and saying he is healthy now? He isnt healthy and stop using the excuse the new one requires skill he simply doesn't no more then olaf requires skill to throw his q and pick it up. I think that is a complete joke. And Aatrox being reworked in patch 8.13 to later be followed by the rework akali in 8.15 which has 4 passives on her passive and saying the old aatrox was unhealthy? Or lets look at ryze who riot has stuck to his theme completely over the past few years of being a mana scaling burst mage despite the fact simply due to the items that have mana on them a burst mage that can burst will never be balanced in this equation. Or lets talk about how they removed DFG to stop tanks like {{champion:54}} going ap but oh no this effects their favorite little skin seller {{champion:103}}. You know what she can have DFG on her E + got more utility on her q and on her passive just making her factually stronger. Plus lets address the goal of the dfg rework was to stop burst tanks? and meanwhile malphites current item build in jungle is full ap? So all removing DFG did was Nerf every ap champion expect the 3 they directly buffed being ahri, katarina and annie the three that sell the most skins? Weird isn't it.... Sorry if this seems angry but I kind of am cause the was no ~~valid~~ reason for the rework and any aatrox player worth his salt can quickly disprove most of the claims that have been made up by people who never played him and experience a single patch of dominance for him to remembered by. Revert Aatrox Already {{sticker:sg-shisa}}
: My issue with that video is they act like Aatrox was the only champ to ever been remade {{champion:3}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:83}} {{champion:6}} were treated the same and kept as much as Aatrox did as well
remakes are cool. destroying a champion that no other champion currently fills the roll of and pretending its the same is not a rework.

RevertAatrox2019

Level 15 (EUW)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion