: There's more assassins than just Zed and Talon lol
Yea, Kha, Rengar and Pyke (as obviously, the guy above was referring to AD assassins, not like LB is gonna go ahead and buy Maw.) BC isn't core on Kha, Kha's don't usually buy DD or Maw though I suppose you can if you want to. Only top Rengar gets DD and that's in conjunction with BC, it's a bruiser build for him. Pyke does buy BC, he doesn't buy the other 2 items Who else is gonna buy these items in terms of assassins? Maybe Akali gets DD in some situations and maybe Kat can also go DD but it isn't commonplace. The rest are AP unless I'm forgetting someone.
: Assassins can get {{item:3071}} {{item:3812}} {{item:3156}} and have 40% CDR while still doing plenty of damage and being decently tanky
neither talon nor zed like death's dance as it reveals talons stealth silhouette and it ticks through zeds ult. pretty sure kha doesn't buy it either. they lose damage by building maw, too, though sometimes you have to get it and it isn't an option (like vs Syndra for example) BC, I give that to you, despite the multiple changes it's had it will never be a bad assassin item because it gives everything they want + more.
: 2/3 damage vs 3/3 damage... tahm being **single target** and brand being **AOE** is enough to cover that, but wait THERES MORE I NEVER said brand builds full ap, I said brand lvl 18 with **ZERO ITEMS** does more damage with his** PASSIVE AOE ** than tahm`s ** Single TARGET W with FULL AP** Also to use your own argument against you. Brand can build full tank items and be more tanky than a tahm with 0 items... **Yet the difference in the defensive is 3???** While tahm can build full ap items and do less damage with his W than brand`s passive aoe despite brand having 0 items...the damage **difference IS 1....**
Brand level 18 with 0 items is not going to have his passive out damage Tahms W if Tahm went full AP. It's going to do 19% of their max hp with no further damage due to him having no AP. Tahm W is going to do 240 base damage +13% max hp damage +2% per 100 AP. Now lets be fair and say he has 400 AP, right? It now has 21% max hp damage + a 240 base damage. This is higher than Brand passive (on a single target, obviously.) This seems fair, considered Tahm is meant to be a tank and not a mage and Brand is meant to be a burst mage, not a tank. Brand obviously if he goes AP will and should do more damage than Tahm. If Tahm were outdamaging mages there'd be something wrong. Moreover, Tahm W also removes an opponent from the fight until they get regurgitated (in all fairness, at his expense as well as he slows himself massively and grounds himself if he has someone devoured), Brand passive doesn't do that. It just does damage and nothing else. In other words, you're just straight up wrong. Brand has to build some AP for his passive to outdamage Tahm W if Tahm builds AP (it evens out at 300 AP for Tahm as collectively, a level 18 Brand passive will do 19% max hp damage but it has no base damage, so even then technically Tahm W will outdamage it, however just going on the % hp damage for some ungodly reason, we exclude the base damage, with 300 AP Tahm W will do 19% max hp damage.) The reason Brand is 0 in defensive is because he has mage base stats and has no defensive steroid, shield etc, Tahm has good base stats and skills that further amplify his tanking (grey hp, the shield from grey hp if you so wish to use it).
yuuum chan (EUNE)
: A platinum players opinion on every midlane champion P.2
Talon isn't the best late game assassin. Nor is he B tier. Nor is he the easiest assassin.. Thanks to E, he's more along the lines of an S tier champion but it's also this skill that gives him a fairly high amount of skill expression and from the usage of that skill alone you can tell how good the Talon player actually is. Zed is better late game, so is Kassadin, so is Evelynn, probably Kha as well, so is a remotely decently played Akali or Fizz. Talon doesn't have the necessary target acquisition to be extremely potent late game, despite his E, due to the low range of Q and how linear his gap closing actually is.
Kazekiba (NA)
: The lack of a counter is the point. Riot's introduced knockups on every new champion while simultaneously removing every source of tenacity to ensure CC lasts as long as they want it to and pro play cant just cleanse everything and avoid #LECBIGPLAYS Also Yasuo R
Yasuo R is a suspension and the cc portion of it can be QSSed, by the way.
Rester (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=lG Nlng,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=zyUqj6sB,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-04-02T03:54:37.274+0000) > > actually, I wanna use him XD, no matter silence, just want his e and w back Functionally, his W is the same. It just goes out a bit further but has slower travel speed with better ratios than before I think.
> [{quoted}](name=Rester,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=zyUqj6sB,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-02T04:13:03.017+0000) > > Functionally, his W is the same. It just goes out a bit further but has slower travel speed with better ratios than before I think. Worse ratios but better early base damage. Also no slow on first hit and a thinner cone, it isn't functionally the same.
: Nevermind how Rammus was in a 2v1 in his favor against a champion he direct counters, HOW CAN A FULL BUILT RAMMUS BE MELTED LIKE HE"S NOTHING?! I don't want a return to the tank meta but that is fucktarded.
wtf do you mean melted like he's nothing? He took an ignite, triple Q, E, Auto, Death Mark, another E, a double Q, and another E when the guy had a full pen build.. Of course he fucking died the Rammus made no effort to avoid anything because "tanks can just soak everything indiscriminately no matter what" right? Tanks don't just facetank assassin damage they also disrupt their assassination pattern and that's the main reason tanks are good vs assassins, it isn't because they don't die fast. Also, Fiddle also did damage to Rammus it wasn't only Zed. Also note that Rammus was feared for a lot of his W duration so he couldn't taunt Zed into it, which if he had been capable of doing, Zed would've just had to run.
: There is no reason she has to be a size two to be just that. Some of the strongest, most confident and alpha women in the world are over 400 lbs. Don't body shame just because donald trump or whoever told like one old and retired generation to lolol
Being realistic, outside of very tall very built body builders (of both sexes, no discrimination), nobody should be 400 fucking pounds heavy, you have got to be trolling.. Sure, you could call it "body shaming" but some people need to hear the truth and the truth is that if you have a adequately functioning metabolism, you don't body build, you don't have much if any muscle etc and you're 400 pounds, even if you are very tall, you are not healthy and you're at serious risk of a heart attack, diabetes, heart disease and a myriad of other illnesses.
: Disagree though. Talon is a more braindead Zed when it comes to landing his damage. Only thing harder is his E CDs.
So because they both do high burst but Talons happens to be quicker and easier to place onto a single target, you can translate your skill from Zed to Talon? I disagree. If you don't know E placement or mid-late game target acquisition (hint: it's much, much harder for Talon to get to his targets despite his E) and if you cannot optimise your W and R placements to proc passive on multiple people you just shouldn't even bother picking Talon, just stick with Zed. Oh and Talon is super telegraphed in a teamfight, there is a period of time where he has to land from E before he can use Q or W (though there is a hard to execute bug that lets you dash off of a wall instead of going through the landing animation, someone has to be in Q range when you're about to land from E) and Q is a linear dash that can be interrupted by hard cc.
: > [{quoted}](name=Eldritchpal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEFL8ofI,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-04-20T11:05:55.363+0000) > > Zed never was a "problem" in the first place, people just arent careful enough while Zed is around so he gets fed and bursts all squishies on your Team, Zed is however by design more appealing to people who want to show off their skill even if you dont need very good mechanics for Zed, so he gets played more often, for example Talon, or Kha'zix are also Assassins which are really hard to stop once they're already ahead and snowballing Yes, we all heard it. If you are good at Zed, you can get more easy wins as Talon. This is a true statement and pretty much a fact.
It isn't true because you need 2 different skill sets to play Talon and Zed and people perpetuating this have no idea what the fuck they're talking about. Talon and Zed aren't similar at all outside of both being AD assassins who build lethality. Talon and Kha are more similar for crying out loud.
: If you're implying that Fiora is some level of broken, lemme help you. Auto win vs Fiora {{champion:75}} {{champion:11}} {{champion:80}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:6}} Win by having an IQ over 80 {{champion:17}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:83}} Auto win vs newbie Fioras {{champion:122}} You can even play Yi into her in top lane. Let her push and then aggro onto her when you're level 2. Take Q and E. Only way she wins this is if she takes ignite and you didn't and still she may just barely win. I learned that the hard way. And of course, Yi massively out scales her so if you get a lead in lane, she's done.
outside of when he's busted, fiora should shit on yorick as you just q on out of his w and deny his engages on you, then go on to outscale him by the time you're both 2 items. wtf do you mean "Yi massively outscales her". Depends on what job both are doing, he's better at skirmish and cleanup but she outscales him in the splitpush.
Fízz v2 (EUW)
: Id love to see you "just flash and button mash" on Riven then. See if u can do fast combos and perfect animation cancels like that
No. The problem with Riven is despite her still having these extremely hard to execute on mechanics in place, those mechanics are currently not required to win lane. You can get by on the bare minimum of remembering to auto between spell casts. The champ is vile and has needed to be addressed for a long time.
Saianna (EUNE)
: I dunno. I only cloncluded it has the same animation as trumph, so it has to be it.
It could be one of the Tenacity/Lifesteal/Attack speed buff thingies from the precision tree. The proc looks somewhat similar to triumph
: Still too much damage in the game.
I agree, but it's now too much damage on tanks and bruisers. The issue didn't go away it just fucked off elsewhere.
Naalith (NA)
: I disagree. Irelia, Kai'sa, Akali, Riven, etc. ran around absolutely broken for the entirety of their existence last season and only saw minuscule nerfs at best. Lo and behold, Akali had K/DA and Prestige edition and was selling her original skins well because not many people had them before the rework, Irelia is the same story, Kai'sa same story, and Riven similar to Yasuo has a base of one tricks who claim she's not busted when everyone knows she is. Meanwhile Urgot was strong for sure, but no one played him and then he made the sin of appearing in a pro game and not being popular to the rest of the playerbase, so of course he gets the long gun of the law for his transgression.
Long gun of the law? This champ has been S++ tier since before worlds (for pro play). It was justified. In fact Riot were generous to let him stay so strong for so long.
Neekð (EUW)
: I want to say something just so Riot knows: The fact that AP champs need to get damage boots is a huge power loss. {{item:3111}} and {{item:3047}} are both extremely impactful, and AD champs can get them without having to give up ANY damage. Maybe you can consider that before nerfing AP champs more.
depends. attack speed is extremely important on ADCs so no, AD champs don't lose 0 damage for building those boots. If you wanna talk about AD assassins, I guess, I would probably go Lethality boots every game if they actually existed though and as it currently stands 8 times out of 10 I go {{item:3117}} on Talon anyways because they're still likely to be more useful to me than Tabi or Mercs unless I'm in an edge-case lane or game like LB mid, Syndra mid, Ahri mid (mercs) or Yasuo mid/4AD comp (tabi). Still a meaningful choice to have to make but yes, it's true damage isn't actually sacrificed, map presence is instead.
Alkaîd (NA)
: ***
No way dude, they have given enough leeway to this champ, she needs to be hit.
: > [{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EpjYstZ5,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-14T00:45:04.537+0000) > > so popularity now equals strength? Your first post literally said that mages were dominating every role. That implies that they are all extremely popular dude.
The statement might have some truth, however it was exaggerated. Mages are currently viable in top, "adc" and support and they're like most of the time, the optimal mids. Though you can't just straight up pick 4 mages in 1 team because then the enemy will just pick a tank and go full MR, of course.
: Ok so Yasuo can have 3 shields now?!?
He could build {{item:3053}} or {{item:3156}} before anyway. It's not really a big deal.
Dr Dog (NA)
: in your opinion whats is the poster-boy for easy champions? and what is the easiest in your opinion
{{champion:37}} {{champion:102}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:1}} They're all very simple and good to use when you're learning the macro portion of the game because they require very little to no mechanics and they don't have any special skills that require very good macro at a baseline level like {{champion:136}}, {{champion:91}} or {{champion:163}} (A Sol and Taliyah are also reasonably hard mechanically and Talon is middling in mechanical difficulty.) I cannot within reason call Janna or Lulu for example easy because you need at least some skill to use Janna Q and R properly and a lot of Lulus skills have double uses.
: Again he wanted to show flat curves hers is inconsistent as in it goes up and down in a way that is unexpected and that is not healthy. You should get rewarded for playing a champion more and mastering them, but Janna does not see that. Why would Blaustoise mention hers when it is not about what her was trying to get across. I have read the twitter conversation before and it is interesting, but Janna is braindead and she is unhealthy.
janna isn't unhealthy in the slightest. Boring to play against perhaps but she's very good at what she does and she has clear weaknesses as well. I don't really see how she's unhealthy. A bad Janna cannot land tornadoes nor can they interrupt dashes with it, a good one can do both of those things. A bad Janna just ults the moment anyone touches her or her ADC, a good Janna can flash ult people back into her team or ult an engaging champ back when they use their biggest skill (such as Talon when he goes into ult, that really sucks.) The easiest enchanter is easily Sona, I have no doubt about that whatsoever.
floo (EUW)
: At least ADCs now have some sort of defensive option that won't be situational {{item:3026}} I'm not sure if the shield is better than the old 12% damage reduction, which it probably is since it negates all damage and not only the last person you attacked. It will probably be looked at again. And even if that's true, what melee would buy PD? Yasuo? He has his unlimited miniondashes anyways)
No, the new PD is worse for pure damage mitigation at every stage of the game.
K3ars3n (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VFiFh110,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-02-07T11:54:31.824+0000) > > Who said anything about lowering systematic damage? They did offer you a solution to reduce damage yourself this patch: > > {{item:3031}} VS {{item:3143}} is far more effective now. And any armor on top of it drastically reduces damage even more. At least versus adcs, Tanks should be semi viable again. > > We still have to deal with Conqueror of course, but this patch has mitigated one of the problems. > > Otherwise, damage is pretty similar to Season 1-5. (With the exception of Shojin users/Conqueror) > > P.S. Keep in mind, before the True damage IE rework, Randuin's only reduced crit damage by 10%, so in comparison to what it used to do, it's already pre-buffed Not systematic, SYSTEMIC (TOO MUCH DAMAGE EVERYWHERE) Runes, ITEMS, Kits, Passives SYSTEMIC They need to cut damage in half, across the board and that is a good starting point.
if you cut damage in half how are any assassins at all going to do their intended job? Take {{champion:107}} or {{champion:91}} for example. I know Rengar is hated around here but these 2 are balanced by doing a lot of damage really quickly then dying after or at least not being able to kill another target, having to escape. They do this very well. If they both lost half their damage they wouldn't be able to kill a thing and don't even get me started on how obscene tanks would be in a situation like that.
: Meanwhile Mages have {{item:3040}} where you have to activate it, cost Mana and has a longer CD (over 2x longer)
I think being able to activate Archangel can be a benefit over an autoproc shield.
Rustypug (NA)
: A big problem is that they think "oh people are upset that adc die in like 2 seconds in team fights better buff their damage" adcs can DO damage the problem is that theyre so squishy they just simply cant live long enough to do it unless youre a annoying ass adc like {{champion:145}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:67}} who are super annoying to deal with especially vayne with her recent buff those 3 adcs seem to shit on every single other adc becuase they are simply the best at what they do, adcs like {{champion:22}} {{champion:18}} {{champion:222}} cant do shit against them because they are just two strong early game with their mobility another huge problem is of course lethality and pure burst shaco should not be able to get a free flash and 1 shot me assassin champs are bullshit because no matter what you will die to them, zed will ult you and thats it there is literally no point lethality as a whole should just be removed when you bring up conquer and true damage people will always say how its nerfed but the concept of true damage is bullshit in my opinions, a yassou should not be able to do over 1700 damage to me while im full build full tank half the time to me true damage feels like random crits in tf2 i should not lose a skill match up simply because your champ can mow through my armor in 2 seconds with no items because of conquer i also think its bullshit how mr and armor are practically useless most of the time i just end up building full ad on my tanks because if i dont blow them up they will blow me up i should be able to punish people who bring mages top lane because i built mr but it feels like i just go from dying in 2 seconds to dying in 3 and still doing no damage im no pro but these are just my opinions, riot seems to have a problem where they try and find a middle ground and pussy foot around yas for example they wont nerf him because all the die hard yas mains would piss their pants so they change items and piss everyone off id rather have a small group of pissed off players instead of everyone being pissed off
You missed the part where Lethality as a whole isn't the issue, it's just Duskblade and it feels like a bandaid fix. Lethality sucks and the AD on the items is low, it feels bad to have to have them in your inventory but as an AD assassin you have no choice because without flat pen you can't even assassinate fucking Ashe. Imagine being mad that assassins are doing their job, you know, killing carries. _Duskblade_ needs work or it needs removing. If removed, a new Lethality item needs to be added (not one with free burst though.)
Syrile (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=SSW Talon,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4AaUf3Os,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-01-27T20:20:46.190+0000) > > It was meant to protect you from any true stealth because it is an oppressive mechanic. > > The problem with Obscurity wasn't that Akali kills you too fast (she doesn't) it was that despite killing slower than many other assassins, she had less counterplay because there was 0 way to reveal her. Yep. My comment was a sarcastic comment about ridiculous it is that someone can hide from a turret. Imagine if Teemo had that? The world would be in a fury.
Oh I see, yeah I don't think it'd be the worst if Teemo had it though. Probably someone more like Rengar, that'd be infuriating
Syrile (NA)
: It is almost like True Sight was supposed to protect you from assassins insta-killing you without the ability to fight back... Almost...
It was meant to protect you from any true stealth because it is an oppressive mechanic. The problem with Obscurity wasn't that Akali kills you too fast (she doesn't) it was that despite killing slower than many other assassins, she had less counterplay because there was 0 way to reveal her.
: > [{quoted}](name=Reav3,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=yQNMhiKd,comment-id=00040005000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-01-25T21:36:49.706+0000) > > I mean I wasn't the producer on any of those Champions except Maokai. I didn't even work at Riot when any of those were done (Besides the gameplay update we did for Maokai) So I can't really speak to the decisions behind those updates. > > For Maokai we only updated his VO as part of the class updates we used to do, which we didn't have much art bandwidth for but we had a bit of VO bandwidth. Since he had received a visual update in the past and was then getting a gameplay update we felt to make him feel more complete we could also update his VO. > > I agree that the Champions listed don't feel complete and there is a reason we don't do updates like that anymore and we only focus on New champs or full VGUs, that bring everything about a Champion up to modern standards. At this point though, while those Champions might not be fully complete, they are still in a lot better spots then the Champions on the current VGU list. Can you not have small side projects going to update these champions like you've had to do the walk/run animation updates and the particle updates? Some champions, like Miss Fortune and Sona, are stupidly popular, and it looks pretty bad on the game that they're not modernized if they're a potential draw to the game.
Because MF and Sona are fine right now. They aren't in bad states. They could use some kit touchups in the future but for now that doesn't seem like a necessity.
: What if they've tried to do just that internally and realized that akali can't do her job at all without it short of making her a stat-check champion.
Lets be honest, isn't the point of an assassin to stat-check a squishy with their burst anyway? If you don't have the stats to survive the burst, even the shittiest assassin in the game will still delete you. But you're right. If they remove the Obscurity from her W, she will need a complete power distribution shift across her kit so she'll need multiple buffs in other areas in exchange for losing the most powerful stealth available. Obscurity could maybe be fine on another champ but this Akali has too much mobility and too much early game power if used correctly to make it fair.
iDarkWind (EUW)
: Lol. Only Akali out of those is actually viable, and Talon cause he can still impact other lanes because of his roam potencial. Any other assassin sucks ass on top lane, and it's a fact.
Talon is pretty potent in top lane in the right matchup, so is Zed. It's because they're very good splitpushers. I dunno about Kassadin after the nerf happening to him next patch though lol.
GigglesO (NA)
: Personal Opinion they need very low durability or low utility to balance out that very high damage. As it is you just watch them play the game while you stand there seeing them RWQ dash away with E in .5 seconds then wait on their delayed damage. Sure you might live 1-2 seconds longer against it because of delayed damage but if you don’t have zhonyas you die.
They're currently risky enough to have such a high reward imo considered I die to Camille and Jax etc as quickly as I die to an assassin.
: Delete One: Champion, Item, and Rune
{{champion:164}} - There are lots of champs I dislike, this champ isn't the one I dislike the most (that would honestly go to Lee Sin, I never got over the vendetta I have against him from seasons long gone.) but being ganked from positions only a few other junglers can whilst also having so much damage loaded into 1 skill on a relatively short cd feels very unfair (Q). Her level 2 ganks are utterly disgusting. {{item:2419}} or {{item:3124}} . I'd be fine with Stopwatch is the cost went up a bit but 600 gold for Stasis (even if it is a 1 time use item) is waaaay too good. Guinsoo Phantom Hit is disgusting and how much that Riot have tried to rework the item has shown that they cannot get a single design of it that they're happy with. They should remove it and add a new on hit item later down the line to replace it. Rune, I'd remove Conq. It's too polarising, there has to be a better answer to giving Bruisers a relevant keystone than "make it harder to itemize vs them."
kargish (EUW)
: Listen buddy, I get that you have a vendetta on Pyke but this is not about him. It's about assassins in general, and I can absolutely guarantee you that the way you describe them there, is not how a proper assassin works. Assassins are a constant. Assassin in different games require different mechanics, but the core is still the same. Next you're gonna say that fighters and tanks require new designs based on genres too? Supports don't provide the same utility as assassins should. Like I mentioned in my post, I have hard mained assassins for almost a decade now, throughout multiple games, I am well aware how they work. The thing you described there might as well have been your average diver {{champion:164}} {{champion:245}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:254}} {{champion:62}}
It's about Pyke because you chose him as the cornerstone of your analogy on what assassin design should look like. I don't entirely agree that Pyke is an abomination but he also isn't the best designed assassin. For all the whining that happens on the boards about him, it'd probably be Zed as he _does_ have reasonably high uptime for an assassin and his burst has counterplay and is reactable, too.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 11
If you're going to buff resistances and nerf ignite, can we please get some assassins buffed soon thereafter? I'm not even necessarily referring to Talon, but others are suffering and this is gonna make them worse.
GigglesO (NA)
: You think playing against a tank is boring. Try not being able to even walk up to your minions because the opponent can 100-0 you at level 3. I'd take farming against a tank 100% of the time compared to afking under tower because if I leave I die. And no tank does not mean deal ass loads of damage like riot thinks they should. It should be: Tanks: 1. High Durability 2. High CC 3. Medium-low Utility 4. Low damage Juggernauts: 1. Medium-High Durability 2. Low-no CC 3. Medium-Low Utility 4. High Damage Bruisers/Fighters -AKA Jack of all Master of none: 1. Medium Durability 2. Medium CC 3. Medium Utility 4. Medium Damage Right now you have tanks and juggernauts that are the same or Less Durable than fighters. You also have fighters that deal more damage than juggernauts even though Juggernauts trade cc and utility for damage. Whats the trade off of picking jax? You get the same durability as a Tank because of Counter Strike/Grand Masters Might You get the same Damage as a Juggernaut because he has good bases. If I was buying a car why would I ever buy the shitty car (besides price)?
And assassins top (As Talon, Akali, Zed and Kassadin are viable top.) 1: Low Durability 2: Low-Medium CC 3: Medium Utility 4: Very High Damage
: In response to your main point, he can use all ults, but he can only use 5 at a time. It will be a a horrid power budget issue as you mention cause some champs have a lot of their budget in their ult, and that will make him extra gross to deal with... Personal issues with his design... One of the things I find most offensive is WHAT does him copying ults have to do with a "theme?" If {{champion:518}} copied ults, it would at least be thematic in a way. What does a guy with chains on his arms have to do with "copying the ultimate ability of a giant monster{{champion:31}} that swallows people whole?" Iv not read his lore yet, but the character has no "mimicry" in any other part of his kit or design that I can see. Neeko introduction cinimatic has her copying the appearance of the frog, she mimics things in her kit.... Sylas tho... bad champ design is bad. Rito champ designers sometimes "have ideas for abilities" and then tacking them onto a champ in development even if it makes no sense is why {{champion:203}} has a stupid ult. The name implies that hes "stealing" the ability, but... whatever, stupid broken champ is stupid broken champ. I honestly think hes going to have to be gutted hard cause I can only imagine how busted he will be with ults like: {{champion:238}} {{champion:23}} {{champion:555}} {{champion:91}} {{champion:11}} {{champion:32}} {{champion:22}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:31}}
I doubt he's going to be busted with Talon ult. Talons ult isn't even a busted ult. It works very well with the kit around it, this much is true so I'll give you that.
: > [{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e0zl2Y4A,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-01-09T00:34:02.270+0000) > > Melee champions don't have the luxury of being able to immediately start auto attacking a ward when it is revealed. They made that change so there would be less instances where you were in the middle of killing a ward, but didn't because the timer ran out. What timer?
The ward reveal timer I would imagine, the passive only lasts so long once it has proced
: Remove Duskblade, Buff Assassins
: Teambuilder (for me) had one massive flaw. If I wanted to play offmeta champions I was searching for a lobby 15 minutes at times. While the few lobbies that accepted me didn't flame me for not performing like a Challenger in iron 4 it still wasn't worth the queue times.
Yeah, that was the unfortunate part. I used to get denied a lot as Talon when he was weak. Let alone if I was playing a champ in an off-role or something (like Galio top)
: Um what? Not even a little. Assassins are the most overbearing overloaded class in the game right now. You get more damage and an adc More defense than mages and adc Ways to ignore and remove your counters (resistances) Enough mobility to idiot proof your class Defensive utility. Free removal of vision (another counter) Removal of your last counter. Hard cc (qss) Doubled utility from Ghostblade. (Can be used for defense or offense) Naturally insane base stats. Multiple keystones that are almost tailor made for you And no. The argument of “but assassins are suppose to go in, kill someone and get out” is entirely irrelevant when the cooldowns are so fucking low that you can do this every 8 seconds with little to no counterplay.
Get more damage than an ADC I presume this was meant to say and yes, early-mid game they do and it was only different when ADCs were 2 shotting everyone early mid game with IE and now was that any better? More defences than ADCs I'll give you, but it depends on which mage we're talking about in that case. Yes, so do other classes, including but not limited to: Mages, ADCs. Mobility can be used badly by the way and if it is, you still die whilst also looking like a massive idiot Only a few. Costs 2.9k gold and only applies to AD assassins. Anyone can buy red trink too so that rebuttal would be neutralised. Yes and the same applies to any other AD class and even mages buy this item vs certain champs/comps, don't act like it's unique to assassins. Yes, Ghostblade is a strong item and has been for a long time so I won't argue this. Because most of them are _melee_ and all _melee_ barring a veeeeery specific few have higher base stats than ranged champs Yes this is also true, but so do other classes such as enchanters, tanks and even mages. The entire point of the rune rework was to make multiple options for multiple classes. Lets take say, Ahri, a burst mage. She can run Electrocute, Glacial Augment, Aery or Comet. Or how about ADCs who literally had HoB added to the red tree specifically so they could spec into it? Whether or not HoB is good is obviously a different discussion, it does not change the intent of the rune. Or how about how some bruisers can choose between Conq or PTA, or how ADCs can choose between Fleet, PTA and some even Lethal Tempo or HoB. This shit is not unique to assassins my dude. Hell I've even seen like 2 or 3 keystones (I think Comet, Aery and Electrocute.) on Syndra. Karthus can choose between Predator and DH.. The list goes on.. Obviously, but once again like nearly every fucking other thing in this list, they are _not_ the only class that can do this and some can even do it from range! CDs as a whole are too low and it's not limited to assassin cooldowns. Also, what that guy said has merit. The lower elo you go, the better assassins are because they reward you picking off people with bad positioning, bad warding, bad wave management and lower elo players have all of these issues. Assassins are the best pubstompers in League so yes, your opinion is also likely muddied by your MMR bracket, unfortunately. Just as my opinion is bias by maining assassins.
Moody P (NA)
: what do you think i should do tomorrow? juggernauts being bad, enchanters needing reworks, or roast mages again?
One order of roasting mages by the end of next week please, good sir/madam
D3m37r1 (NA)
: Hey guys remember team builder? That mode where you always got whatever you wanted.
I miss Team Builder so much
: You literally just destroyed all the zed one tricks with this. Someone get this person a medal, finally I see someone shutdown the randoms defending champs like zed claiming that he’s a “skillful” champ meanwhile an iron could even grasp how to quickly one shot someone with zed. As an answer to the board question, I’d say that it might be a combo of champ popularity, nightmare to balance and other champs being the main target of balancing, rework, design, etc. So unfortunately I’d imagine if zed gets a nerf, it would be the items or runes he goes for rather than him as a champ.
Well, because to play Zed to his full capacity it does take a lot of skill. Champions with medium skill floors but extremely high skill ceilings exist and Zed is precisely that type of champ. A champion can take a lot of skill to pull off _properly_ whilst being graspable at a basic level by even lower level players. About his balance, Zed just isn't likely to get nerfed fullstop. After deliberation I actually think Zed is solid but he isn't OP by any means. Maybe some of his runes or items would get nerfed in the future but that won't only effect him, anyway.
: He does not have to be the strongest to be a problem, and he's definitely a problem.
I certainly think a champ being strong correlates with whether they're a problem. Zed really isn't an issue once you've learnt how to deal with him.
: > [{quoted}](name=SSW Talon,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P82rjauB,comment-id=000600000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-06T08:26:38.487+0000) > > But to some extent, he isn't _entirely_ wrong. Fizz, Kha, LB, Blue Kayn and Talon are the assassins most worth picking currently. Now, it's a fairly healthy amount but they are also countered by decent enchanter players thanks to their peel, so the person who made the comment doesn't really have much to stand on either. I really don't see what your point is as it had nothing to do with my point.
: > Now, it's a fairly healthy amount but they are also countered by decent enchanter players thanks to their peel Best joke in 2019 already. All i can do is to enlarge the time until my adc gets oneshot by the time im able to cc the enemy. Shields are entirely useless, compared to the hillarious ammounts of dmg every champ has right now. If i as morgana for example q,w a zed perfectly, r and put exhaust on him, before he can ult my adc, he still will oneshot him, thanks ot his r base dmg and {{item:3147}} . The thing is most adcs (draven would be an exception) arent able to kill him while hes ccd before they have 2 or 3 items. Zed in comparison needs only {{item:3147}} . And Morgana is one of the better picks you can have, imagine being a lulu, capable of shielding 300 every 10 seconds at level 10. How should you compensate the oneshot potential all assasines have? Even polymorph is not helping in all cases, because its insanely bugg, so that already pressed spells are casted anyways (no thing more is needed, no animation started, no cd running of nothing, simply pressing a spell is enough). That leads to Rengars jumping on and oneshotting you eventough you polymorphed them perfectly midair. Id bet the base for your argument is that sona has a high winrate, although shes some kind of enchanter (correct me if im wrong). But thats only a result of the dmg meta, because shes the only one who can keep up with it, due to her r%%%%%ed concept of hitting everthing in ehr range.
I do think Duskblade is an issue so we can agree there. AD assassin itemisation needs some changes at some point as it's leaning way too heavily on Duskblade. Honestly? I think damage as a whole needs to come down, not in terms of classes but in terms of runes as that's who the perpetrator of the problem really is. But if a Zed is Q, W, R'd and Exhausted perfectly by a Morgana, doesn't die and still kills it really wasn't because of his base damage or Duskblade, it was that you guys did something _seriously_ wrong. Also, no, Janna, Sona and Soraka off the top of my head are all very good right now. Honestly though, I think Lulu needs buffing. Not the entire Enchanter class as it'd be disingenuous to call them bad, but I don't think Lulu is in a good place and this is coming from an assassin player. Just a blanket statement, I'm not saying any of this to defend my preferred class (though there might be some bias toward them) I legitimately just want to see the game improve and I don't think assassins are the absolute most OP class around right now, but I do agree some of their gameplay pattern could be improved for both the player and the opponent (it sucks so much to _have_ to rely on Duskblade as an AD assassin, on the contrary it sucks to die in 0.7 seconds to a not even fed Talon if he has Duskblade.)
floo (EUW)
: Assassins are not healthy for the game. They're design is too forward in terms of "damage and get out", that is correct. Which is exactly why they shouldn't exist. It's not fun to play against and in a lot of cases feels unfair (mostly when they snowball, but that's another story). I much prefer bruisers too since they can be worked around by not just "Lulu R, shield and hope for the best", as long as they aren't overloaded with mobility and spam (looking at Jax and especially Irelia & Yasuo). Heals and shields are hard to manage, but in my opinion healthier than raw damage, because they are a less common ressource. Everyone deals massive loads of damage atm, few champs actually have ways to prevent themselves or even others from blowing up. Balance sadly is not existent in the game as many would like it to be. Enchanters have had their time with AC; I can see why people don't like them. Still, my view on this is "Survivability/Protection > Damage". (Mainly because I don't want to die every fight after 2s if I don't use Flash, Heal AND have my support to save me)
Assassins are healthy insofar as "if they didn't exist, there would be no direct counter class to hard carries." Almost like a necessary evil. Their design is no more straightforward than a burst mages "dump my burst and run or die." in all honesty. Game length isn't helping any burst class look fair right now as most of them are strongest during early-mid game and games tend to end during mid game currently.
: > [{quoted}](name=Reaper Claws,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P82rjauB,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-05T01:16:28.581+0000) > > You guys are just proving this guy's point even more. Moody P has an extreme bias for anything that's melee and isn't afraid to show it. In this thread he calls bruisers WEAK because volibear is weak (outdated) and trundle is weak (too easily abused by pros.)
But to some extent, he isn't _entirely_ wrong. Fizz, Kha, LB, Blue Kayn and Talon are the assassins most worth picking currently. Now, it's a fairly healthy amount but they are also countered by decent enchanter players thanks to their peel, so the person who made the comment doesn't really have much to stand on either.
GreenKnight (EUNE)
: You want my gold items for supports nerfed? Sure, you can do that. But nerf assassins and conqueror, so i can play enchanters again.
Enchanters counter assassins, why is nerfing them of importance? Also, Janna is one of the strongest SoloQ supports rn, Soraka is good and Sona is good. There are _viable_ enchanters. I think assassin itemisation needs a look at, perhaps even an overhaul. Lethality is in a sorry state and is being carried by how strong Duskblade is, the same applies to any viable AD assassin. AP assassins are hit or miss, only a few of those are good too and they all use mage items as they have basically no items designated to their class. Honestly, the only assassins who I think are in an acceptable state rn are Fizz, Talon, LB, Kha'Zix and blue Kayn. Maybe an OTP Rengar is okay.. By acceptable I mean "worth using." I don't want assassins buffed but I sure as hell don't think they really need nerfing.
: > [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lfsWj1Jo,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-06T01:30:12.785+0000) > > I don't have an issue with Lethality but TBH it's a little annoying how you can legitimately stack nothing but armor reduction items Removing Duskblade and re-remaking Black Cleaver so it doesn't stack with Last Whisper items might help solve that. Like, give Black Cleaver this for a passive instead. _Unique Passive - Last Whisper: +10% Armor Penetration. While in combat, gain an additional +5% Armor Penetration per second, up to +30% Armor Penetration after 4 seconds._ Something like that. Does anyone even buy Cleaver with the intention of softening up their targets for the ADC anyway?
I do buy Cleaver with the intent to soften up targets for _all_ AD champs in my team Also, these changes, do you want to kill AD assassins? Removing Duskblade would necessitate an AD assassin buff across the board or a new Lethality item. I don't agree that AD assassins should shred tanks but realistically, they only do so because they go after them before they have even completed an item... Oooor if they're extremely snowballed, there should be nothing stopping a 3 item assassin assassinating a 1 and a half item tank, honestly. The issue with games right now isn't all of this, it's that they're too quick and even then... The only good AD assassin is Kha'Zix and perhaps Talon in high elo. I think Duskblade should be reverted to the previous version that wasn't a suitable rush item. The one that did true damage that scaled based on your Lethality, gave ooc MS (maybe remove this as Youmuu took the ooc MS from the item) gave 65 AD and 18 Leth. It wasn't broken back then and it was changed for the sake of change and I really hate that kind of design philosophy. Honestly, AD assassin itemisation needs work because we need more options but less unfair options or options that will be abused by ADCs then nerfed into the ground.
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SSW Talon

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