They haven't adressed RW in 6 years, which makes no sense, since they obviously don't like Tank Karma and it's the root of all the issues. The Q nerf that slapped midlane Karma out of viability was so badly aimed I almost can't believe it wasn't intentional. The heal makes so little sense it should've been the first and easiest to change, not much thought needed....

> Like, one of those is talking about Akali and Sylas... Are you cherry picking or?? You listed them as examples and then talked about control mages? How am I supposed to know you are specifically not talking about the same category for these two? > If you type "battle mage league of legends" into google; any post you pick will mention control mages... So control mage is a much older term. Yes, and it was an undefined term, so one day Riot decided they need workable official definitions and created the ones I linked you to. As long as you don't present me with an official definition we can agree on to what you think a control mage should and shouldn't include, I can only guess what you mean. Control Mage was most likely abandoned, because it wasn't clear enough since most mages have some sort of control over other champions. It's what mages do. The way they do it is interesting, that's why the categories "persistent damage and survivability", "kill before you can retaliate" and "Kill from long range" are workable subcategories.

It really can't be. There is no reason it should be **20% (+1%AP)** missing hp, when old Karma used a less tank focused scaling with **135 + 5% (+2%AP)** missing hp. She both scaled better with AP and a worse with (effective) health. Why did it move to nearly pure tankscalings? Today's Karma DOUBLES her effective healing with a single Spirit Visage, while a FULL 12k gold AP build only increases it from **20%** to **25%** missing hp. A flat heal scaling with low hp makes way more sense for a support and for a mage. And instantly stops _"Tank Karma"_ from ever being broken. Just imagine it like this: 80heal + 0.05AP, increased by 3% for every 1% health missing. Quadruple healing close to death, reasons to build AP, some reason to build resistances, none to build health. Still works in toplane, but is actually useful in mid and bot, without ever breaking with tank items.

That could work! Again, I believe it to not find many proponents, and Riot has said that they will avoid risking a 4th Karma version, but... if you can come up with some details for spells, I'd love to hear them. I am very interested in game design.

> _"Even Swain and Sol are control mages"_ > _"I'm not saying either is a control mage"_ {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}} > Ive never heard of "battle mages" until recently. It's an official term since 2016 See more here: https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Champion_classes/Mage#Battlemages "Control Mage" isn't.

I don't think some movementspeed counts as "high mobility". In her champion overview she has is classified as [1 out of 3 mobility]. Additionally I would argue that low mobility fits battlemages better than artillery mages, who should have none. Lissandra and Vlad for example have a mediocre dash and small MS boost themselves. > But their is another problem. Every bad Karma player out their simply spam RQ the whole games. The average Karma player will spam RQ during the lane fase and RE during the remaining part of the game. Her RW is only used defensively when they jump on her. >The issue is that whatever you say, her kit works right now. Don't you think those two paragraphes are kind of contradictory? You obviously see the issue but claim it works? > It's not that hard to use and their is a hugh differents between a good and a bad karma player. You are the first person trying to explain to me Karma has a high skill ceiling... seriously, what exactly is there to master about Karma other than: * Knowing what your spells do * Hitting Q There is no special mastery to her kit. It's all generic things... > You really don't need to change a lot to make her an solo laner. She was overwhelmingly played as a sololaner for 6 years... Support only took over in season 7 and after that Q nerf it seems her sololanes have died. So yes, it would be easy to make her a sololaner again... just revert the 9.19 Q nerf? > Karma support still provide a lot of unique things compaired to other supports. I strongly disagree with your use of the word "unique". She has "strong poke" pre 6, but that's it. Also I don't get why you couldn't have her identity stay the same over the course of the game. Shielding&Damage early game, Shielding&Damage lategame? > We could even say she fills a crucial gap in both the mid as support role. Again, if that's so, I don't understand why this shouldn't stay the case lategame?

As you wish! Posted it [HERE](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/e7swax/what_subclass_is_karma_and_what_should_it_be/)

Well, I personally try to keep Karma close to the version we already had, a transformation mage might be disliked by older mains, who prefer the case-by-case decision making her mantra once offered (and still tries to). Not sure how a transformation would work with her lore or fanbase, that's why I was curious if you had a clear vision.

That's weird. It's like I'm talking to you and you are talking to a public. Either way, currently Karma is in fact weak. Support is below 49% winrate, toplane and midlane have been completely killed off. These days you even get flamed for picking Karma mid, it's become that bad. But... I know of no Karma main who - at this point - wouldn't straight up prefer a proper rework instead of a buff. Especially since any buff they've gotten has lead to another nerf, that left her worse than before. Karma mains want their main to be better, not stronger. That's why they are AGAINST the buffs and were AGAINST the nerfs before that. That number juggling does nothing to adress the issues, just tries to push them further away.

You mean the karmamains reddit or the LoL reddit? Because I did post it on the former...

> A solid hit is guaranteed to get the detonation especially on an already cc'd target. You can walk out of the zone without boots. It doesnt matter how "solid" the hit is. And then add tier2 boots, ms buffs and dashes into the mix. > I just think that straight buffs is a horrible idea (As someone who hates playing with and against her). Honestly, another rework is in order, they didnt really get it right the first time. Now I am convinced you didn't read my post at all. I am NOT in favour of buffing her, I am strictly talking about reworking certain aspects of her kit. In fact, the whole post is built upon me protesting against the shieldbuffs.

Darnit, for some reason I always forget that some people wanna know those kind of things. This picture is one of two made by the brilliant *__~~Andrzej Dybowski~~__* you can check him out [HERE](https://www.artstation.com/dybowski) And here's his second work on Karma. https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/021/792/856/large/andrzej-dybowski-dybowski-karma2.jpg?1572968445 He has other pieces of Irelia and Lissandra

How would you envision her to swap?

Akali is an assassin, Sylas is a burstmage and there is no "control mage" type in leage. I am really confused as to what you are going for.

A battlemage/enchanter would simply require her to EITHER make herself survivable or her ally. So she is either tough as a balttemage or squishy as an enchanter. Similarly, enchanting her allies OR dealing damage makes that work too. And in niche cases manage to do both, which would require a lot of skill tho (and by skill I mean awareness, planning and prediction). And lastly, Riot kind of called her a battlemage/enchanter already, but ADDED catcher, tank and artillery elements to it, for no good reasons.

Okay, first of all, the RQ damage you listed already includes Q damage. The mantra damage is actually: 175 (+40%AP) & 360 (+60%AP) However, if you wanna talk about lvl1 mantra, it's only 25 & 35 damage respectively, in addition to an 80 damage Q, which puts the respectable base damage growth in perspective. The second explosion is handcrafted to ALWAYS allow ANY champion to walk out of it, even without boots, as long as they keep walking. So realistically it's usually a slightly more accessible 105 + (70%AP) damage burst every ~40s instead of a 80+(40%) damage poke. Compared to a Lux which can hit you for 70 (+70%AP) plus passive for 20 (+20%AP) the damage is actually rather similar. Lux requires an AA, but is on a 13s cooldown, a third of Karma RQ's cooldown. And don't even get me started on comparing Karma's full combo to the full combo of any other mage out there. It just doesn't hold up. So no, Karma's early game RQ is not THAT broken as you just pretended. Additionally, you seemingly just ignored that the bonus damage usually comes at the cost of her survivability, so she already has to choose between either. And if you had read my post you could've seen that I argue for an EASIER to dodge RQ (putting more skill expression on Karma AND her opponent).

Quick {{champion:43}} question: Is there a reason she still has tankscalings on her mamtra W? To me it seems to be the reason for her oppressive toplane nature if she is ever any good. You obviously nerfed her Q to keep her in check (i.e. unviable), which incidentally gutted Midlane Karma too. Wouldn't it have been better to make that RW scale better with AP instead of HP?

They have no clue what to do with her. Didn't have one since season 3. In my latest post people seem to zero in on the Battlemage/Enchanter identity, which means she needs more ways of actually enchanting and dealing more consistent damage. Most likely at the cost of her CC, range and tankscalings.

Yeah, I am sorry, but that's because of 3 reasons: 1. Without multiple options polls, I had to fall back on this awkward solution 2. Adding all 2 subclass hybrids would've taken 21 options alone, with priorities (Artillery/Catcher or Catcher/Artillery) it would've been 42 3. It's usually better to combine different classes, not subclasses, as subclasses are more likely to be contradictory Personally I could see Burst/Artillery hybrids or Enchanter/Catcher hybrids, but I thought that deviating from her historical (mage) and current (support) main role would've not been a good idea. I appreciate the feedback tho! But I'd like to know even more; what would your enchanter/catcher option exactly entail? Nerfing damage/poke options and replacing them with more direct teambuffs and harder/more reliable CC? Like a stun-RQ, NeuroCat's W and all that jazz?

According to op.gg the following champions are played mid and support {{champion:3}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:518}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:45}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:101}} {{champion:26}} The only one of those, that has a 50+% winrate in both lanes, however, is Zilean.

They dropped it, because the community reacted very negatively to it, mostly, because the W felt very charring to many Karma players. so it was shelfed. NeuroCat had to move to another project, as was planned before and nobody dared to pick Karma up after that.

I mean, yeah, updating her visuals would be nice, but she still needs help in the gameplay part of her identity too.

What's stopping you?

Her Q had comparable damage to Lux Q, now it has a 40% scaling, while Lux has a 70% scaling. I get why some people hate RQ, but normal Q seemed to be an absotely basic and unproblematic spell to me? Also, it's not about BUFFING normal Q, it was fine. It's about reverting to pre 9.19 levels. Karma's whole kit has pretty low damage overall, because she only has 2 damage spells (and mantra on one), while most mages have at least 3 damage spells and a damage passive. This of course made single abilities seem strong, while overall she wasn't. Now even her spells on their own are weak... > give her another/different source of damage with low base with privileged ap scaling Well, if you read my post... I am arguing in favour of that too?

Well, you have a point. But that's the reason why I try to get the community to agree on some things, consequently reducing any risk to Riot. I.e. I try to work into their risk-reward analysis.

> of course i'm looking at karma when she was viable mid,now she kinda sucks everywhere but i'm referring to her kit not her balance,when she's in meta she can be a pain to deal with Aren't most viable champions a pain to deal with when strong? Like, some just burst you down, others never let you get close, others survive you every time. What I am trying to ask you is... what exactly makes her different to you in that regard? That she doesn't die as easily as you want her to? PS: What champions do you usually play into her? > actually i read it all,but i think if you make it like lux's E even if you slow her projectile it would still be too hard to dodge and even more toxic since you can't hide from it Again, the idea is to force her to move closer to increase her chances of hitting it, making her more likely to get into counter range. As the ability works right now (explosion at max range) it encourages Karma to stay at max range all the time, which is probably what makes her so frustrating. Second, if it doesn't explode on collision, but only in the targetted area, you can dodge TOWARDS Karma, giving you more options. And lastly, with a targetted area the zone wouldn't spawn centered on the hit target, which means whether you can escape the second explosion doesn't depend on your boots alone, but on both your and Karma's skill. I have discussed that idea for roughly 2 years now and the best counter argument anyone has ever mustered against it was NeuroCat herself, as she claimed that it changes the aiming paradigm for it, which might confuse some people at first. I consider it a weak counter, but it's true. But then again, there's {{champion:102}} Q... > or make it so slow that after your opponent buy his boots he could drink a coffee,read a journal and then dodge it, Well, then Karma has to walk up a little bit. Or predict better. Either way it increases counterplay and skill expression. > i think the best option is giving her some sort of rework,even because as someone pointed out (i don't remember if it was you) her kit doesn't really fit her character Well, I have been asking for a proper rework for quite some time, could've been me, idk. I just feel she is not truly fulfilled as either weilder of twin dragons or the epitome of karma (small k). Like Irelia wasn't really a psi-blade weilder before either. But I am glad we have you on board with a rework idea. If you have any ideas or suggestions yourself, I'd love to hear them!

I can easily get behind that cynicism, but please explain how and why they wanted NeuroCat to work on her?

Karma only has soft/unreliable CC and no dashes. If CCd she dies quickly. But I get what you mean > and her RQ which is almost impossible to dodge if you are not behind some minions If you read my post you could see that I want her RQ to be easier to dodge at max range, so she either has to come closer or you have an easier time escaping her burst.

They could simply change her RW so that it doesn't profit massively from building tanky, but instead from building AP or heal items. It's that easy. If she isn't motivated to stack defensive stats and gets more reasons to build AP, Tank Karma dies.

No, I get that, they will prioritize the role the think is healthiest for any given champion. But they obviously also WANT champions that are hybrids of some sort. For Karma this should be Mage/support, and they can justifiably hate her Tank identity, but they just fucked that up. They nerfed Karma's ratios (which Mid needs) and left her bases the same (which Tank Karma needs). And to this day they have changed nearly EVERY aspect of her kit, but in over 6 years they have refused to adress the problems the RW scaling causes, which could efficiently kill Tank Karma, while even HELPING their dear support Karma.

Flex pick for at least 2 roles, having relevant damage throughout the game? I think that should easily be doable.

Her Q currently deals 80-260 (+40%AP) magic damage. Compared to a Lux Q, which is 70-250 (+70%AP) Or Syndra's Q, which is 70-230 (+65%AP) It's quite obvious that she has high base damages, but with the current scaling, you can't claim it's a lot of damge overall. You also have to keep in mind, that she has fewer individual damage sources than those other two (she has literally only 2.33 damage abilities, while those two have 4) I also see Karma die all the time, once she is CC'd she falls really quickly? I get that her RW can be quite stupid at times, but she gives up most of her damage for it.

That's a very good argument, thank you!

The problem was that you ignored the content of the topic and just came in to argue against Karma, based on things that were factually wrong. > Let's be Honest, if Karma E R Q your ass as a squishy boi you're dead. Isn't that little bit OP? RQ deals 435 + 70% AP, which would require ~2000AP to oneshot anyone. It's also roughly Syndra's MINIMUM damage on her ultimate. Quite frankly, Karma's whole combo deals comparable damage to most mages. Lux and Zyra easily deal more, for example. > Didn't I say E R Q? The E stuns Here you apparantly confused E with W and you can't tell the difference between a root and a stun. > the one that makes a line between Karma and the enemy which stuns you for 8 hours straight Here you ignored someone trying to tell you that she has no stun, and ignored me telling you that the W roots for 1.4s, while Morgana has a Q that roots for 3.0s But instead of admitting your mistakes and continuing the conversation, you left and rant about us in a new thread? Doesn't feel like you actually wanted a conversation with us...

To me it appears like they made three mistakes: 1. Conducting a VGU without actually having a team, money or time dedicated for it 2. Ignoring the initial (and continuous) negative feedback as outliers. 3. "Improving" Karma without ever settling on a true gameplay identity. Now it's virtually impossible to make up for their past mistakes, because they stack rather unfavourably. As I said before, they are in a lose lose situation and thus shelf her, which is the low risk-low reward option. I'd love to help them out and I am glad I can work for you a bit. One day or another I will get their attention again.

Well, it's not that I necessarily disagree, I just don't think villifying Meddler will help in either the short nor longrun.

Interestingly enough, Meddler took Karma as an example a few weeks ago when talking about the dangers of reworking champions, because - as he argued - Karma has 3 fanbases now, which makes working on her really difficult. Didn't like that CDR tether either, but generally NC was still the best that happened to Karma. Because she honestly cared and stopped when we didn't like something.

I mean, some people actually think that 3.5 -5.10 Karma's decision making was actually worse. Ricklessabandon for example. Which blows my brains out tbh.

If only they had given NC more time and ressources, or a chance to build on her first attempt. She was the first and only to actually care for Karma and her community. {{sticker:zombie-nunu-tears}}

On the boards, the voices of sololaners are stronger, because the duolane is usually catered too. I think there's two strong fanbases for both sides of her. Personally, I like playing champions that can do either, so I can switch to carrying when my ADC sucks.

Tell _"the people"_ I am trying to get Karma fixed, so they never have to worry about that again. She _should_ be more exiting to face, play and watch. I agree with you on that. But instead of being a nay-sayer I am actually trying to do something about it. Join the cause or leave and be grumpy in your corner.

I frequently try coming up with some, it ain't easy. Something dualistic involving the fabled twin dragons seems to be favoured.

Karma has been in the game since february 2011 Her most common role for the first 2 years? Toplane. Chances are she had been in "your" toplane before you started playing LoL.

Oh. That's what he meant. W root = explosion, RW root = big explosion. I don't think that's something I would go for in the League of Dashes, but thank you for translating!

Weeeeell, I did the math. Max lvl RQ deals 435 + 70%AP upon impact. With a full build (Rabadon, Morellos, Liandry's, Ludens, Void and Sorc boots) you have ~600AP and 30Mpen. That's 840 damage to someone without MR items, which... truly can never kill anyone. That's also roughly Syndra R's _minimum_ damage btw. If they happen to be stupid enough to not walk casually out of the zone, they take an additional (350+60%AP=) 710 damage, which - in combination with Luden's and runes might come close to oneshotting maybe a caster without HP & MR items that's also 2 levels below you. So I wouldn't say impossible, but a niche case that could happen every couple hundred games or so. Which probably proves your point.

> You could say this about any enchanter support. Janna Nami Soraka? First of all, I don't know what you just quoted. Second, yes, **Soraka** was braindead. That's why they forced her to _interact_ or literally slowly kill herself. **Janna** is constantly debated about for exactly this reason. Sit back, help disengage, do nothing else and win lane/game. **Nami** is more proactive, interactive and probably one of the fairest champions in the game. And now, that I said this: Why do you think of Karma only or MAINLY as an enchanter? Because her kit isn't that of an enchanter at all. She has ONE ability that enhances allies. Her passive doesn't even interact with it. > So that way it doesnt matter what she chooses and is overtuned no matter what she does making her even more of a braindead champ. Having three very similar choices is miles better than having no choice at all. Besides, the higher you climb, the more important nuances get. And lastly, I debate you any day of the week, that Karma was both more interesting and more healthy, when she still had damage on all mantra options. Karma's who ALWAYS mantra'd Q for damage was the single best way to spot a noob Karma.

The buff her shield tho and leave her Q (and thus midlane Karma) in the gutter?

The funny thing is, Q is still miles better than W {{sticker:zombie-nunu-bummed}}

Working on Karma is exhausting and risky. The fanbase is so fucked you walk a very thin line if you try to please everyone. And maybe that line ends half way there. I get why other champions get prioritized. They are safer ways of spending your time and less likely to cause someone to rage at you. Which is already tough for other champs, but Karma with her 3 fanbases and 3 lanes is... daunting. I am not surprised nobody took over where NeuroCat left off. I am simpy sad.