Aptest (EUW)
: my argument is, that game statistics only help a player feel validated, when they detail the specifics about the situations where the player was awesome in the game. The player must first be awesome in the game independently of the statistics and only if that is possible, and if the awesome comes in a way that is appealing, will the statistics have a positive impact. Let's look at statistics in the opposite case: "you had a pretty boring and stressful game following other people all the time, but actually we can see that you had a very high impact with your follow up because you denied a lot of damage dealt with your shields". This kind of storytelling from the post game statistics do not make me want to play support more. They make me aware that the play style of follow the carry around and shield is good, so maybe I'll demand that from supports in the future, but I'll be approaching the same scenario in the future from the position of the guy being followed I.E. i am switching to playing carries. That being said, supports do have their own ways of being awesome. But these are relatively hard to measure. P.s. Statistics s.a. "Catch skill accuracy", or "catch skills that resulted in kills" or "catch skills that resulted in your team getting aced" are good statistics to have in general. but these are not support role specific.
I am just missing this _"well, the game didn't go well, but my stats seem fine"_ feeling, that is provided to other roles, but not supports. Or even the other way around, to allow for some reflective work. I disagree with the idea that a person must be _"awesome"_ first, for him/her to feel validated by seeing their impact in a numerical way. Gamification is a thing because people like **_seeing_** their impact in a more direct way, which feels more rewarding. Even if it is just little steps. Games tend to add sounds and numbers to trigger the positive feelings more often. The sound of ~~Zelda~~ Link opening a box will always sound good to me, even though it might just be "noise". This is not supposed to fix ALL of supports' problem or make EVERYONE love supporting, but it's a step that I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be added. For clarity, for motivation, for reflection, as a reward. And yes, maybe we can go one step further with catch skills, but that seems to be advanced stuff compared to what I am suggesting.
: I'd like to see a 'damage facilitated' stat that tracked how much damage allies have done to targets during and shortly after the duration of hard cc you have applied to enemies. It would accurately track the difference between meaningful cc laid down to set up kills and using stuns just to save yourself or try and duel someone. Maybe also a 'damage mitigated' stat what combines healing done to allies with damage that your shields and resist buffs on allies have eaten up. While were at it 'time enemy has spent revealed by your wards' and or 'instances of an enemy being revealed by your wards' would be nice to keep track of not just how many wards you spam, but how often you place them correctly so that they catch someone roaming or camping in a bush. Number of wards placed and ward uptime can easily give undue credit to players who just spam wards in safe places on cooldown, but these other stats would only reward players doing useful things with their wards on a regular basis.
> 'instances of an enemy being revealed by your wards' We are maybe leaving the realms of practicality and just spending time in the realm of desire, but hey, I enjoy the conversation either way.
: I think it be really cool if the support role got a sort of "Save" indicator. Assists show when you helped get a kill, but why can't I see how many times I just barely prevented a kill. This could probably become an actual shown stat for champs with heals, sheilds, and *gems*/invincibility giving, with the game calculating how much damage was done to that sheild/ heal, and calculating whether they would have died or not without it, but I'm not sure how it'd be shown for champs like Tahm Kench or others though.
I dunno. I would already be happy about a "damage prevented" or "damage shielded" stat. It would help to estimate your impact for a single game, as well as making it easier to compare different shielding supports.
Aptest (EUW)
: > Riot never seemed to catch the drift of highlighting their value through stats. I find it very hard to believe that highlighting stats will have any kind of effect on the desirability of support play. I believe support will be a more appealing role if and only if it offers more appealing types of gameplay. Changes to the supports role that do not pull gameplay into appealing direction but add "ceremony" will do nothing because players will very fast get used to ceremony and consider it to be "noise". I.E. you can't teach someone to like something unless that something is good. Because if that something is not good, the person learns to not like it after having tried it (and then calls you a liar and a cheat for your attempt at education). > To summarize quickly, goldbay99 gbay99 states I have a lot of respect to his skill at the game, but I consider his analysis, both in this case and in general, to be lacking.
There is still no way to tell how well you did as a support. If only you could see for yourself that you played well, how much you protected others or messed with the enemies. It could provide a feeling of achievement, independent of others. If you want to argue that having game statistics doesn't help feeling validated, then we probably don't need any at all?
: > [{quoted}](name=My Hands r 2 Big,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=xlEiFjXn,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-03-22T01:56:59.135+0000) > > They made a huge visual and gameplay update a few years ago. Her model used to look like crap. I highly doubt they even plan on touching her. I honestly think her old model looked better lol
She was the first proper VGU and you can tell. There is so much that went wrong in terms of her rework, starting with lacking ressources, time and dedicated people, over a lack of understanding of her playstyle, up to the removal of unique features that were replaced by bland ones. It's not that I dislike new Karma (I mained for the longest of times, tbh), but in terms of _reworks_ Karma was just horrible.
: Hey SilverSquid, haven't seen you around in a while. I think it would be good to have these additional stats available, but I can't imagine they'd make the role much more appealing. I think the role itself needs major work, and I don't see it without an Enchanter update.
Hey King, good to see you. I have a very busy schedule at the moment, so I can't keep up spewing out my Karma posts atm and had to fall back on more.... general and shorter topics. My "Karma was a horrible rework" thread is in the works for longer than I would love to admit and I barely got time to brainstorm with Warden on potential Karma abilities. On topic: There is certainly more to be done with the support role as a whole, but it confuses me that after all those years of support being a position people don't like to fill, Riot never seemed to catch the drift of highlighting their value through stats. There is a reason OverWatch puts a lot of emphasis on stat highlights.... supports generally get the MVP cards more often than damage dealers, to present their impact more clearly. I know that there is other things to be done (and I've been yearning for this enchanter update for so long now), but I can't possibly see any downside to upgrading the stat tracking system, and it doesn't seem to be as much work as a class update...
Kãrma (NA)
: every day that goes by without this being a thing in game is another day of sadness :D
Thank you, my friend. I would love to have a real game designer to have a look on this and tell me their honest opinion. But I don't know how to get them to do it, without being obnoxious.
: There are three other factors I feel are contributing to the disatisfaction with the role 1: Lack of levels and items making you feel weak. Because you have to spread out your team as much as possible to maximize gold and XP, someone has to be the "poor man" on the rift. 2: It is called support. When the role has a name like this, it's hard to get respect. "Just a sup". ADC is called bot, just like every other position. Support sounds like a subsidiary of bot. Speaking of which.. 3: There is some idea that the sup "belongs" to the adc. People often say "my sup."
I generally agree. There are probably even more reasons. But I wonder whether they could also be solved so directly. 1) Yeah, I think that's why hard CC and strong utility are key to support champions. They are always useful and always impactful, no matter how much money you have. And this is another reason why shield/heal champions are a bit harder to balance (or they have literally no progression based on items, which doesn't feel good either). 2) I never experienced it like that. But I have been known as a support main and I generally don't mind playing "unviable" roles. So maybe I am not a good judge. 3) To be fair he is also "my ADC" :D
Rioter Comments
: Hmm i dont think they've been pushing her there, i believe player base just followed the pros and realized that her high scaling and poke strengths would dominate the bot lane better against an adc who can't do much early game just as how MF has become a support because she can easily lane bully the opponent, karma basically took over Sona's place imo with better shielding similar poke and team utility.
If I, as a game designer, keep removing options from her midlane playstyle and keep buffing the strong parts of her supporting (mostly her shielding), I DO push her towards that, no matter if intentional or not. And I do not know which one would be worse, though, because of a billion-dollar gaming company I do expect they can predict the results of their design choices. At least generally.
: If supports become viable in other lanes they are nerfed back to bottom
_"When Karma becomes viable outside of botlane"_ _"...Riot nerfs her back into it."_ No offense, I can fully stand behind your general sentiment, but Karma has more frequently and more viably been played in mid than bot, for nearly all her existance. The issue I have is that Riot keeps pushing her in there, while pretending they want her to be viable in both lanes. Now seeing people believe she has always been there is unsettling to me.
: A bit of a Rant
Heyo, greetings from the Karma community! I wasn't quite on board with all the complaints about the new skin, but I can understand pretty well, why there was this overreaction. The communication between Riot and the Karma community has been.... abysmal for a long time and - while this has been true for most champion communities out there - she is one of the champions who suffered the most because of this. Since every new change to her kit (and historically, her visuals) was in stark contrast to the expecations in the community, old parts of our community have been repeatedly being alienated. And after that wild buffings spree from Riot a year ago (which wasn't what she needed at all), I think some people just snapped and started jumping at every single bad thing. They became cynics and would howl at every possible occasion to finally get some attention from Riot. And this new beautiful skin with its few bumps and misses was just another opportunity. As I said, I was not on part with them. I am not the guy for visual stuff. But I have spent a lot of time with this hurt and neglected community, and the fact that they would jump at the slightest failure of Riot when it comes to Karma ....comes to no surprise to me. I hope I could clear this up a little! If I failed, let me know!
Leo1024 (NA)
: For The First Time In Forever I Felt Like I Carried As A Support
That's really great to hear! It seems to be similar reasons why I picked up Karma in the first place too (and because I like supportive midlaners). It's nice that even without outside appreciation you can appreciate yourself and your success. That's what matters the most. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
: 3 Minute Full Lethality Fizz Montage
I am actually kinda relieved to see that this isn't a good build on him. Thank you.
: > [{quoted}](name=SpookyNeedle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EbTh0j9Y,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-02-11T05:13:56.222+0000) > > You can't stun with Karma's E Woops. XD I meant her W. :p
You also can't stun with W...
: Where's my picture of the dominos. It's the only reason I clicked. I thought it was cute.
No opinion on adapting Karma? Anyways, here you go: http://www.spiritual-knowledge.net/images/karma.gif
: It could make them cheaper for one. Plus there's also the passive and active effects you'd still want as a tank.
But you could still go full AP malphite while getting tank stats for free.
: My own pragmatism is the source I guess. You want tanks to be tanky, but you don't want non-tank to build tank items and still do the most damage in the game. The thing creating tank ekko, tank fizz, tank karma, etc is the items. Logically that means you either have to artificially restrict which items which champion can buy or you have to nerf the items and compensate tanks within their kits.
But wouldn't that make tank items on tanks essentially.... meaningless? What would prevent them from gettin all damage items if most of them get the tank stuff for free anyways?
: I've got the feeling that tank items are getting majorly nerfed and that tanks are getting a bunch more armor, mr, and HP per level. So every time you level up, you'll end up getting 10 armor, 10 mr, and 100 HP which will vary a little from tank to tank. That way tanks will get a lack of fun build into their kits and other classes won't be able to be tanks when a GA only gives them 20 armor and 20 mr and a thornmail will have a whopping 30 armor.
That would be very enjoyable. But even more reason to remove Karma's hp scaling and replace it with something more fit for a mage/support. PS: Any sources for these.... feelings?
: What would you think if Karma's old Q became Karma's new W? That would give her a heal, the wave clear from her old R+E, and bring back damage she has lost from the patch 5.10. Also what if she had her old passive and her current passive was moved to R with it scaling by 1, 1.5, 2. Basically something like a half-revert.
I feel like I had already answered those questions. Did I forget to do so? I am certain that I have pondered those questions, but did I not write it down? If so, I am sorry! > What would you think if Karma's old Q became Karma's new W? Removing the tether from Karma means removing yet another thing she had forever. This is a high price to pay for an outdated damage cone. I don't think this would fly ba Riot's design standards and I personally don't think it would be worth it. I enjoyed old Q and RQ, but in the context of the time and her kit. > Also what if she had her old passive Free power for low hp is not a good idea. I also dislike the way they did it with Poppy, even though it's much more harmless, and this would probably not fly on Trynda if he was designed these days. Sure, it fit old Karma very well, because she had two abilities that allowed her to dance around on low hp (shield and heal), which made it really enjoyable, but her kit needs to revolve around it. Today's kit doesn't. And I strongly suspect Riot doesn't like having a champion that is encouraged to run around on as-low-hp-as-possible all the time. Personally I don't think it's too bad, but I tend to gravitate towards creating Karma kits that give you opportunities when taking damage (for a few second) instead of getting free power for being and STAYING low. As low as possible (Poppy, only needs to be under 40%, WW under 50%, and those are only effects that help them survive once things get tough) > her current passive was moved to R with it scaling by 1, 1.5, 2. Her current passive is a shame of a standalone passive and not sufficient as long as the interaction with E/RE is gone. Giving Karma a real passive and moving it to her mantra would surely help, but I think that passive needs more thought in general. Or we need the RE damage back first. > Basically something like a half-revert. I gave up trying to push "my" way with Karma over a year ago. Today I try to find out what the community wants and needs, and what Riot wants and needs, how to create something that all people involved with Karma could enjoy. Her opponents, her old fans, her new fans, everyone. As such, reverting is out of the question for me, in most cases. I need to keep in mind why Riot changed some things in the first place and work with that. This is one of the reasons why it makes me furious that they never told us why they removed RE, because it's such an important part in Karma's history and future developement, yet I lack their opinion on it.
: > where he started "a discussion" where he again, did not bother explaining anything concrete. Yeah. That's what people do on the boards. Post their opinions to vent or to check how much people agree. When I create a thread I wanna engage with people and challenge/get challenged by everyone involved. But this takes at least a full day of commitment and I can understand if people can't/won't use that much time. It is fairly common to not answer more than 2-3 comments in your own thread. It's weird to me, but it's the way it is. > Here's my comment on his thread, if you want to see if i was being a dick to him or not. Not a dick, no. But once again you, despite appearing very clever and well versed, you seem to get stuck with banter and proving superiority, instead of just proposing short and precise arguments. I can understand why people who don't have the time to make a huge thread in the first place don't wanna engage in challengers who keep writing comments as long as the post itself and coming off as both overly polite and painfully disrespectful. Not trying to be offensive here, I am just trying to convey how this feels from a not-you-perspective. > So much for wanting to discuss things. Reading his post I really doubt that was his intention. People seem to like validation and hive minding over discussion. > Before you start riding him cowgirl position raw, it would pay off first to do your research into both parties Weird assumption. I did only comment on the way you treated him in this instance. No need to stalk you for that. > I was not unpleasant to people (...) He decided to be dick-ish about it and after the first comment, it was very much apparent to me. First of all, that is both arrogant and ignorant to say. How could you know how others perceive you. I assume you didn't _try_ to be, but if you behave the way you do in this thread, you _are_ unpleasant, _at least_ to me. Second of all, this is the kind of banter that makes you appear insecure and fall prey to trolls, while others will tend to avoid you. > And lastly, he's Silver 2. Yeah, I don't care. I know people with physical disabilities who can never reach something higher than bronze, it's not always their mind. Sure, it's hard to assess a higher Elo that you could never play in, but it's not impossible. I once used this ad hominem and I regret it to this day. > but i won't shy away from putting them in their place If that's what it feels like, I have to disappoint you. You are not achieving it. You look desperate, chidlish and arrogant trying to put someone _"in their place"_ on a forum. There is no point in trying that. There is no reward for achieving it. And it's not your authority either. Be nice. Offer rebuttals. There is nothing better than being nice AND correct. Being arrogant AND correct is a straight downgrade. Also, if you want to convince people, you have to make them like you. If they hate you, they have a reason to not even listen to you. Which he just did.
> The same attitude would be equally disgusting of a Diamond player If their attitude would be equally disgusting independent of their rank, why bring it up? > it's not an ad hominem attack. It's the truth. It's always hard to hear the truth from someone else and you almost always interpret it as a personal attack. Ad hominem means adressing the person not the argument. It doesn't have to be false nor does it have to be a personal attack. > What is arrogant is when i am rubbing it in their face, which is something i never did. Claiming to know how you appear to everyone is arrogant, as it claims holding a position (of knowledge) above everyone else. > What does this mean - It's not my authority to put someone in their place? Teaching someone a lesson implies some kind of superiority. A respectful debate assumes your partner as an equal. If you are not willing to lead a proper debate you may not blame others for not doing so either. > I couldn't care less if people find me likable or not, as long as i am correct in what i'm saying. Then you don't care about convincing them, but only about being right. Which means it's not aboute the debate, but all about you. I don't want to invite this _"everyone needs to like everyone and no one ever needs to be offended ever"_ thinking, but rather the idea that we should fight arguments, not those who hold them, which we sometimes need to remind each other of. Otherwise this is a war without a goal, other than war. > And i like destroying these fools by calling them out on their stupidity and contradictions, only to have them explain themselves properly on what they meant. If they don't do this, it's becomes very clear from that "discussion" how stupid they made themselves look. Yup, it's all about you then. You even know. Fascinating So you are on here for sadistic pleasure or to make up for some lacking self worth? Either way, I prefer those who are just plainly craving for upvotes in simple words with honest opinions more than your kind.
Ralanr (NA)
: Ehhhhhhhh....at this point I'm willing to see what happens.
Do you think the proposed changes would be bad tho?
Ralanr (NA)
: The intended goal of the tank update is for tanks to get the most benefit out of defensive items while other classes do not.
Not trying to be cynical here, but there usually are at least some unintended beneficiaries from new items. And I would rather it not being Karma, when there could be an easy way to prevent it. And maybe improve Karma a bit while doing so.
Rioter Comments
Elikain (EUNE)
: >He just realized you were too far removed from his position that he didn't even bother trying to convince you anymore. Then i encourage you to look at his profile [and find his recent thread](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/JMEnLjul-just-revert-malzahar-and-syndra) where he started "a discussion" where he again, did not bother explaining anything concrete. He was just there to amass upvotes (which he got) and seek attention. To which again, i stumbled upon by pure accident and once i figured out that it was the same guy, i asked him to explain what he meant this time. One thing is to refuse to participate in a conversation (which this guy inserted himself into) and the other thing is to ignore a valid question on his own thread. [Here's my comment on his thread,](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/JMEnLjul-just-revert-malzahar-and-syndra?comment=001a) if you want to see if i was being a dick to him or not. I wasn't aiming to be polite this time around, but i was firm to ask for a concrete rebuttal, to which he didn't reply to. And i didn't see anything of the sort discussed with the others, he just ignored the thread altogether. _**So much for wanting to discuss things.**_ Now this is why i said he was full of shit and that he doesn't know what he's talking about. And i politely called him out for that. Whether you approve of this or not is not my concern. If he wants to participate in intelligent discussions, he should bring his intelligence with him. --- _**Before you start riding him cowgirl position raw,**_ it would pay off first to do your research into both parties, if you want to come to a reasonable conclusion _**(use protection)**_. I was not unpleasant to people i replied to _**before**_ he decided he should add nothing to a discussion, i actually discussed things and then he came along, pretending his opinion is a fact, to which he did not want to share. So he could have not reached a conclusion that i was "not worth" the explanation. He decided to be dick-ish about it and after the first comment, it was very much apparent to me. And lastly, [he's Silver 2](https://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=Swarovsko). I don't ever want to make a point about someone's rank because that alone means nothing if they can discuss something from their point of view._** But typical low ELO behavior and mentality**_ is what he displayed right here and on every thread he can think of to write. He believes he's right and he does not bother explaining anything to anyone, which is why most of decent people avoid him and his threads in a wide arc. I won't bother discussing anything further with people like him but i won't shy away from putting them in their place, because that's what they ask for when they comment in this manner.
> where he started "a discussion" where he again, did not bother explaining anything concrete. Yeah. That's what people do on the boards. Post their opinions to vent or to check how much people agree. When I create a thread I wanna engage with people and challenge/get challenged by everyone involved. But this takes at least a full day of commitment and I can understand if people can't/won't use that much time. It is fairly common to not answer more than 2-3 comments in your own thread. It's weird to me, but it's the way it is. > Here's my comment on his thread, if you want to see if i was being a dick to him or not. Not a dick, no. But once again you, despite appearing very clever and well versed, you seem to get stuck with banter and proving superiority, instead of just proposing short and precise arguments. I can understand why people who don't have the time to make a huge thread in the first place don't wanna engage in challengers who keep writing comments as long as the post itself and coming off as both overly polite and painfully disrespectful. Not trying to be offensive here, I am just trying to convey how this feels from a not-you-perspective. > So much for wanting to discuss things. Reading his post I really doubt that was his intention. People seem to like validation and hive minding over discussion. > Before you start riding him cowgirl position raw, it would pay off first to do your research into both parties Weird assumption. I did only comment on the way you treated him in this instance. No need to stalk you for that. > I was not unpleasant to people (...) He decided to be dick-ish about it and after the first comment, it was very much apparent to me. First of all, that is both arrogant and ignorant to say. How could you know how others perceive you. I assume you didn't _try_ to be, but if you behave the way you do in this thread, you _are_ unpleasant, _at least_ to me. Second of all, this is the kind of banter that makes you appear insecure and fall prey to trolls, while others will tend to avoid you. > And lastly, he's Silver 2. Yeah, I don't care. I know people with physical disabilities who can never reach something higher than bronze, it's not always their mind. Sure, it's hard to assess a higher Elo that you could never play in, but it's not impossible. I once used this ad hominem and I regret it to this day. > but i won't shy away from putting them in their place If that's what it feels like, I have to disappoint you. You are not achieving it. You look desperate, chidlish and arrogant trying to put someone _"in their place"_ on a forum. There is no point in trying that. There is no reward for achieving it. And it's not your authority either. Be nice. Offer rebuttals. There is nothing better than being nice AND correct. Being arrogant AND correct is a straight downgrade. Also, if you want to convince people, you have to make them like you. If they hate you, they have a reason to not even listen to you. Which he just did.
Elikain (EUNE)
: >I don't like how you accused him of being all bark, when barking so much yourself. I don't think you understand what idioms mean. I backed up my point, he didn't. That's what it means. When i replied to someone, i came with my explanation on why i think Karma is who i think she is. This guy just wanted to start an argument for the sake of creating conflict. When i told him to explain himself, he chose not to in the most laughable way possible. It isn't my problem he's presented himself as being mentally inferior. He shouldn't have said anything if he didn't want to discuss anything. >Even as the enchanter she was, she worked best in sololanes, due to needing the gold. Karma never needed the gold. Her previous kit was front loaded with a lot of free AP. And the meta was simpler, you didn't even have to try hard to win your lane and take over the game with your ADC. In case you've forgotten, that was the time where winning your lane actually mattered more than today. She doesn't need the gold now. If she's pretending to be the damage/utility support with less gold and she's doing fine, more gold to spend on better items won't ruin her. Therefore she can play both roles, without sacrificing anything. The point is that her support role is more popular because of the meta. When Faker starts playing her mid (like he took Lulu on mid), you'll see the sheepish masses instantly praising the new meta.
> I don't think you understand what idioms mean. You would be wrong then. You also missjudged why he does it. He just realized you were too far removed from his position that he didn't even bother trying to convince you anymore. > Karma never needed the gold. Compared to other supports, who always had AoE stuns, huge knockbacks or targeted lockdowns, her value came from healing, shielding and providing damage, which is more directly impacted by gold. It's better today, but you can still feel it. > In case you've forgotten, that was the time where winning your lane actually mattered more than today. The only thing those sentences are reminding me of is why Svarovsko didn't bother with you at all. You are not a pleasent discussion partner. > The point is that her support role is more popular because of the meta. When Faker starts playing her mid I have read you stating that _"it's only the meta"_ multiple times now. The meta exists for a reason. Faker picked her for a reason. It's not some random thing.
: Hey SilverSquid, seems like Malzahar is heading down the same path as Karma. Nerfing solo lane rather than nerfing/fixing the support lane. A lot of people are upset by this and seeing all the feedback has a striking resemblance of what Karma has been going through, from Mid laner rebalanced into a Support, with a dedicated small fanbase before even the rework, Riot not understanding his complex identitiy, and "experiment with changes until it works" while ignoring Malzahar Mains' advise as to how to handle the situation. > [{quoted}](name=Denarius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i1OpWsbE,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-02-05T07:25:15.894+0000) > > Remember when Malzahar was a niche anti assassin mage mid laner played by a small but dedicated base of fans with favorable match ups into many of Riot's clear favorites like Yasuo but even or bad match ups into long range poke mages. Remember that? Remember also when Malzahar could be played in the jungle as an AD mage that scaled into a split pusher that specialized in melting towers by swarming voidlings, with a high skill floor but rewarding ceiling? Remember that? > > Last tweet by David Capurro in May "Probably hotfixing Malzahar tomorrow. Is he OP in mid lane as well? Or mostly in the jungle?" > > lol, truly a job well done. Just give it up, David Capurro has long forgotten who Malzahar even is, the only people who care are the handful of Malzahar players that were there since before the rework, praying he wouldn't fuck him up like they did 3/4 "juggernauts" and watching as Riot's neurotic balance team fumbled again and again trying to fix David Capurro's mistakes while he was hiding in a corner somewhere preparing to rework the assassins (good work there too lmao). This seems like a really good topic and time for you to bring up another post on Karma. I also learned some interesting things that could also be used for Karma in what Riot seems to be doing wrong, definitely something worth looking into and take a few notes for later. Another thing I wanted to bring up people seem to be arguing that Karma was never a mid laner to begin with and was always considered a support (there are people arguing that she is a mid laner). I really hope this doesn't effect Karma in the future, but I am glad people are arguing that she is a mid laner utility mage. Link to one of the discussions if you're interested in checking it out. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/i1OpWsbE-malzahar-nerfs-need-to-be-made-to-support-malz-only?comment=0005000100000000 I know this is an old thread, but it may seem that my conclusion of what Riot thinks may have some truth to it and it may not be a misinterpretation. One of my fear may be coming true where the community is starting to believe Karma is a support rather than a mid laner (of course we went over the "class isn't the same as a role" topic, but you know what I mean by this). I do believe this is just from Riot's "advertising" Karma as such, which is what I believe is making people change their opinion of what Karma should be played as.
This is very disheartening to read. Poor Malz mains. I feel for them. > this seems like a really good topic and time for you to bring up another post on Karma. You want me to create another thread that tries to side with (old) Malz mains? I mean sure, that could get us a few likes from their community, but it's not quite what I am aiming for with my threads. Or am I missing something?
Elikain (EUNE)
: Wondering who's ignorant here. While i explained both times my point of view, you yourself had explained nothing. And for no apparent reason. If you can easily shut me down, why not do so? The most likely explanation is because you are bullshitting through your teeth. That's apparent from your statement: >no need to waste my time explaining you what was The moment you went with "i know shit but i won't bother explaining it" is the moment you buried yourself. I will just going to provide your final resting place a nice flower on the top. Now one question remains: why did you even want to participate in this conversation when you clearly don't want to converse? _**Basically, you're all bark but no dog.**_ The explanation below that i'm leaving you with is more for my own state of mind. I don't like leaving things unfinished. I'm not too generally concerned about your reply as i'm certain you won't have anything of value to share, otherwise we wouldn't have been in this predicament in the first place. --- All of Karma's Shield Bomb damage went to her Q instead. That was nothing more than a power transfer, which allowed Karma to have fair damage that can't be easily done to the enemy while giving her a lot of utility to boot, stabilizing both her mid and support roles equally. What's exactly the thing that makes her better at one particular role? _**Nothing.**_ She could have done both without any problems and still can. I've played her when she was released, i mained her then and i played her after her rework, both mid and bot. She can play both positions without any problems. Her kit is what makes her versatile and Riot reworked her in such a way so that both positions are available to her. The only thing that "dictates" her position is the _**meta**_, which we already established that it's not a decree but just a popular way to play the specific group of champions.
I don't like how you accused him of being all bark, when barking so much yourself. Like half of that comment was sophisticated insults and ensuring you display mental superiority... I think clever people are usually clever enough to not feel like proving it to a stranger on the internet. But let's not talk about what I like, let's talk arguments: Karma has been played mainly midlane for all of her existance, excluding the last couple of patches. And yes, the fact that she is played there is important, because otherwise Blitz would be a toplaner and Alistar a jungler. Even as the enchanter she was, she worked best in sololanes, due to needing the gold. This would suffice to make that statement _"[Karma was] never [a] mid lane mage to begin with"_ sound foolish. Additionally, the fact that she can still work in sololanes is not the point, it's the way Riot disregards her playstyle and identity. It's not only about lanes, you know?
: Ki is actually just life force. When the DBZ characters use power blasts and stuff that's Ki. Ryu's Hadouken is Ki. Ki is mostly just associated with martial arts, but really Ki is just a word the Japanese use to describe the universe energy within all things.
Due to your input, I studied this matter for a while. As with everything in alternative medicine and fantasy worlds, the use and understanding of it changes based on where you are coming from. And it's generally broader used than I believed (especially when used in real life). Additionally, I thought Chi and Ki are different things, when in actually, it's just the Chinese and Japanese version respectively. While I still think my assessment makes most sense (for now), I can not deny Tyrek the use of this word, as it fits _multiple_ instances that I came across. And it seems arrogant. Thank you for correcting me.
: I'm really glad you like it. About the ki, sorry for the blunder there. I was thinking that since fellow Ionian Shen used ki for his spiritual talents, that Karma used a similar method for her skills. I can change the word "ki" to "soul" or "spirit" if you want.
I don't think that's necessary. After King disagreed with my assesment of Ki I looked further into it. Apparantly Ki is used for a much broader amount of things than I had been informed about, so my understanding was incomplete. Please do not change your beautiful story based on this (changing some rhymes would be a pain, I assume). I will rather spend some time studying this and exploring the possibility Karma using Ki. In the end, I love alliterations. I just feel a bit mindfucked. Sorry for the trouble.
: Hey, sorry this took so long. But here it is: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/yrAwAExT-karma-the-enlightened-one Hope you like it.
What are you talking about? That was barely over a week. That's pretty fast, assuming you have a life outside of writing^^!
: Karma, The Enlightened One.
That was beautifully written. I like the way you paint into people's minds. It's something I should thrive to do more often. ~~One small criticism (because I just can't shut up, ever):~~ ~~_**Ki**_ is the representation of your physical power and potential and thus usually used by monks; they train their body to perform magic-like wonders. ~~ ~~This is one of the reasons DBZ fighters are ripped beyond proportions.~~ ~~Karma, on the other hand, draws her power directly from her soul. Put simply; she doesn't need to do push ups to do dem hadoukens, she has to train her understanding, will and resolve. That's why calling anything she does "ki" feels incredibly weird to me.~~ **EDIT:** Is frequently used not only for your life force and bodily potential, but also for your spiritual connection and similar things. This fits better than I believed.
Speedweeb (EUW)
: I just realized what the most controversial VGU will be
> The problem with Karma was a total lack of theme. Hold on a second. Do you mean Old Karma had no theme, or that the New One didn't introduce sufficient ones?
Jaredc3 (NA)
: She has plenty of outplay potential, because you she could heal and shield and stun and slow, you can't touch her
You lost me at _"stun"_ And no, "not being able to touch her" is not outplay either. It's unhealthy at worst and predictable at best.
: Marksmen don't need a buff, supports need (another) rework
> high damage mage supports like Malz, Karma, Brand, and Zyra. Can we get those back to being played (mainly) midlane please? I didn't fathom to ever hear Malz being called a "mage support" and it doesn't feel right.
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ERoMbXPm,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-04T03:08:47.765+0000) > > Problems she didn't have before Riot started removing shieldbomb from her, pushing some inappropriate CC onto her and overbuffing what's left of her. That's a particularly common in the support role, as far as I am aware. Removing damage and forcing you into being a sustain bot? Yes, that is one of the main issues with support right now, and Karma got it right in the chin. > Close. > My issues is that she is a mixed bag of missed opportunities, missunderstood characteristics and mistreated thematics. Whenever Riot tried to improve her, they kept making her stronger and healthier (well, most of the time), but robbing her of what made her Karma in the first place. She appears to be one of the few champions out there, that lost character, depth and thematics over the years. And that's contrary to everything Riot keeps preaching whenever they do a touchup on any champion. I mean, Riot does a shit ton of crap that's contrary to the shit they preach. Difference is that, when it comes to support and its champions, it's so blatant it's insulting. At least with other reworks, even if they fail, you can see that they were *trying* to deliver something good. For supports, it's decision after decision that makes me wonder "Why is this a 5v5 game again if you obviously don't want it to be?".
> Removing damage and forcing you into being a sustain bot? I mean, Karma is still a pokelane, not sustain.... > At least with other reworks, even if they fail, you can see that they were trying to deliver something good. I dunno, I happened to live through the "I buy boots and wards all game" times of supporting, and I think it has become better. But an enchanter update is direly needed. Or maybe I am missing some updates you are talking about, if so, please remind me.
: Like I said: Karma's a support as well as a mid AND a top. When she's in the support role, she's going to reflect the role's problems. Tank Karma and mid Karma all have decent viability to them, as well as support. That's not the issue. Your issue is that support Karma, the one in the limelight, is *most likely fucking boring and stale*. Am I around the ballpark on that?
> When she's in the support role, she's going to reflect the role's problems. Problems she didn't have before Riot started removing shieldbomb from her, pushing some inappropriate CC onto her and overbuffing what's left of her. That's a particularly common in the support role, as far as I am aware. > Your issue is that support Karma, the one in the limelight, is most likely fucking boring and stale. Close. My issues is that she is a mixed bag of missed opportunities, missunderstood characteristica and misstreated thematics. Whenever Riot tried to improve her, they kept making her stronger and healthier (well, most of the time), but robbing her of what made her Karma in the first place. She appears to be one of the few champions out there, that lost character, depth and thematics over the years. And that's contrary to everything Riot keeps preaching whenever they do a touchup on any champion.
: That won't be fixed unless Riot actually takes the time to address weaker champs in the role, as well as the lack of item diversity.
That would be nice. But not pushing Karma into there in the first place would've been nice too
: Why do Sona, Karma, and Morgana get free poke? How is that balanced?
What do you mean "free"? Sona has to go in AA range, Karma has to hit a decently hard skillshot or spend her mantra to make it easier and Morgana has a skillshot or laughable puddle damage. How is that better/worse than other botlane mages/enchanters/stuff?
Jaredc3 (NA)
: I play karma mid a lot, it's not just mantra e, it's poking and healing. You can 2v1 easily with manta w and there is lots of outplay potential with her kit
Poking and healing has nothing to do with "being a leader". Being able to 2v1 is not a theme. And no, her outplay potential is minimal, since she has no mechanically deep abilities, no dashes or instant/hard CC, nor does she have unpredictable combos.
Aquafuge (NA)
: doesn't Karma's w deal damage, and when it gets enhanced by her r it gives lifesteal/spellvamp .
Yes W does damage. No it doesnt give spellvamp, it regains Karma a % of her missing hp at the start and finish of the tether.
: It is on purpose. To the very least, she's a strong and viable pick in that hole.
But a boring one, that also pushes out other viable picks in that hole. From a design perspective this doesn't make sense.
: @Meddler & @Reav3 - Karma is Not a Full-Fledged Support Here is why.
I am not comfortable calling anyone a _"real"_ main or not. But it seems like the hole Karma once filled (even after her rework) is empty now, and the one she is filling now is crowded with other enchanters. And I have yet to be explained to, why that is. Because it can't be on purpose, right? Right?
: @Riot What is Karma's theme officially?
She throws green blobs of.... magic? I dunno. Without her baiting passive she lost her karmic touch. Without mantra giving her opposite effects she lost her dualistic touch. I just... don't....know? Is continuously "mantra E" on your allies justifying being a leader? Isn't a leader someone who LEADS people into battle, not someone standing in the back shouting "you do that"? Isn't that rather, what a _boss_ does, not a _leader_? Is repeatedly lobbing RQs at enemies providing anything thematicly that Lux or other champs don't already provide? And what the hell is tank Karma supposed to be? I have so many questions and so few answers.
: It is a perfectly good time to teach people to stop complaining about champions and play the game. The game is balanced and I'm tired of people saying it isn't. Each champion has its own play style and every champion has a play style that is used to counter that champion. I've made some stupid posts in the past but I have now realized that if you have fun with this game then you will become a much better summoner.
> It is a perfectly good time to teach people to stop complaining about champions and play the game. And why not play the game instead of complaining about people complaining? It feels kind of arrogant to say. And self contradictory. > The game is balanced and I'm tired of people saying it isn't. Perfect balance is unachieveable, so it can never truly be balanced. It's a bit like the tides. But it's fair for people to point out the things they perceive as flawed. > Each champion has its own play style and every champion has a play style that is used to counter that champion. We are only getting into some dangerous territory when some champions lose their beloved play style for no good reason. Also playstyles aren't quite as stone-paper-scissor-y as you state here. > I've made some stupid posts in the past but I have now realized that if you have fun with this game then you will become a much better summoner. Coming to terms with the stupidity in the world sure helps one's peace more than any achieved goal. But the kindling flame of fighting for your passions is a useful driving force as well.
: Hmmmm... it's a pipe organ, isn't it! Dang big toaster you got there...
**W**ould **I** **E**ver **N**ot **E**xplain **R**iddles? **D**o **I** **C**onstantly **K**ill **Jokes**?
: Which organ?
**P**robably I can **E**nlighte**N** you about what it **IS**.
: Personally, I hope that they'll revisit her theme and character concept again in the future. While it may have looked and sounded good on paper, the mantle of decorum just feels and looks out of place in game. It never really translated nor did it add to Karma's fantasy of a "spiritual leader" that Riot has pegged her to be. Instead, it looks like this huge burden of an object she has to drag across the map for no reason other than clarity for her ult being available or not. That brings me to posing this question; is Karma's spirit fire/energy a resource inherently acquired through her willpower, through years of practice with her elders? Or is it something that she actually requires summoning, drawing from a source say the mantle itself? I ask that only because I'm trying to make sense of why she has to carry that backdrop with her. Based on her present and current lore, it seems like she herself is innately blessed with the ability to summoning her "powers/abilities", that which I am thankful for. It gives her an interesting dynamic to her otherwise "just another human in the game" character. So why did Riot chose to have her carry the mantle again? Another argument that can be presented based on lore and previous discussions is that Karma is a leader. Therefore, she carries the mantle of decorum as a symbol of her status and rank. Now, I would've been fine with that if the execution of the mantle was done right. Previously, her old concept and model had her carrying it just perfect. It was closely attached to her dress making it look like a part of her elaborate dress set, complimenting her entire appeal/outfit. It made it look like it belonged (that this is how Ionian Royalty looks like) and just how she carried it back then (through her beautiful and detailed animations) evoked that majestic feel we ought to have felt when we saw Karma on the battlefield. Now it's just an animated object that she somehow magically carries (or drag) around with her. I get that we have to suspend our disbelief when it comes to some of the "fantasy" aspects of this game but even some of them just don't completely make sense even in the context of the game. Also, Karma is not THE leader of Ionia. She's one of the many figureheads of this beautiful nation. So why is she carrying the mantle of decorum? Does this mean that every other leader are carrying the same object behind them? I personally would like to see it go. It's such a distraction to her beautiful model and serve no purpose other than it being a neon sign telling other players that her ult is available for use. I hope that they'll bring back her fans for it was one of the iconic things about her that people have associated with this champion. It also had a purpose, both as a weapon for her and an object of value. The fans served as a reminder of the time she decided to take action against the invasion of Noxus, that she will no longer will sit idle as her people suffers. It also is an item of sentimental value, being something from her humble background, from her parent's antique shop. These little details gave so much character to Karma as a champion and made her more relatable to her fans. She wasn't someone who was battle oriented but she chose to rise up and defend her nation with whatever talents and means she had. She is a leader who came from a not so entitled background but she overcame the odds and is now our fame Duchess. In her present state, the fans can be used as weapons that she can channel her spirit fire on to produce more focused versions of her abilities, similar to how wizards rely on their wands for their magic. Currently, the combined visuals of the mantle and her producing energy (Hadoukens? :P) through her hands contradicts each other with the themes they are trying to present. The energy she uses in game makes her appear to be a monk of some sort like Lee-Sin, but the mantle just being there behind her makes her look somewhat of a fighter/Tank since the only other champions with objects behind them are Taric, Irelia, and Jarvan, and all of them can initiate and be front and center. I'm aware that she can tank, but she does it differently compared to those three. TL:DR Bring back her fans for they actually served a purpose. Disassemble the mantle or leave it in that sacred room where Ionia houses their emblems. As far as the discussion for her kit goes, I'll leave that entirely up to Riot as well. With the lack of discussion from them, I'm thinking Karma's current kit is Riot's intention of what Karma's niche is all along. Keep up the good fight though. I hope they'll eventually be open to discussing that as well.
Erm, I don't know if you are aware of this, but the Mantle of Decorum should be an honorable symbol carried by valued members of the society. Irelia has one of them for a reason too. I am not too much of a visual guy, so this is probably all I can say about that. > I hope that they'll bring back her fans for it was one of the iconic things about her that people have associated with this champion. It felt so disingenious, when they said _**"For the fans, as I said, we added them back in as an homage, for those fond of them. We really wanted to push the Mantle of Decorum, and her Mantra style gameplay. And who knows? Maybe this will open the space for another fan champion to blow us all away?"**_, which basically translates to _**"We ruined her, but we will be sure to salvage the good parts for other champions"**_, like they did with her shieldbomb {{champion:427}} , lvl6 abilities {{champion:126}} and duality theme {{champion:203}} . > With the lack of discussion from them, I'm thinking Karma's current kit is Riot's intention of what Karma's niche is all along. This is confusing. I mean, sure they apparrantly want Karma to be this enchanter that can occasionally build AP, that provides strong early game poke and some team AoE shielding and speed for teamfights in lategame. But this just convinces me, that they forgot Sona exists, because that's _exactly_ what she does. Why do they push her into a role that's already taken?
: @Meddler & @Reav3 - The Karma Injustice of 2013 and Continued Injustice of 2017
> Yes, we did add them in, on all her skins. Yes, as some of you have guessed, it is only on her Dance. We wanted to give you guys an homage to the fans, as they were a key element to her in the past. > We did initially remove the fans, as Morello quipped in the Leak thread. We weren't fully prepared for how fond of them some of you were; which is a point we've heard loud and clear, and will be discussing further in-depth for future Relaunches and Visual Upgrades. Allow me to jump into the fray here for a second. On our champions, especially older ones, we have very iconic elements. Things that when you think of the champion, you can't help but think of. This can go one way or another, either good or bad, weak or strong. This feels so.... stupid. They straight up admit that they didn't ask what people loved about her visuals and that they failed to preserve her. But their reaction to it feels like _"well, we fucked up, let's do it better on the next champion, sorry we ruined your main :) "_ It's one of the reasons Karma feels like a failed experiment. Yes, Riot might have learned some useful lessons by that rework of hers, but then deciding to just leave her the way she is feels incredibly careless. They didn't even know why people liked her. That's the reason. That's exactly the reason, why Karma is a decent champion now but a really bad Karma, that feels lackluster. Why she is a good champion, but a horrible rework. They didn't care to ask first and they didn't care to cuddle with us after they fucked us (and that falls onto something between rude and rape, I guess). The worts part; They did it again, 2 years later, when removing her shieldbomb. It's like they didn't learn at all. But hey, she is fine guys, she has seen play in LCS, haha. Jesus. PS: The RW changes you quoted are from her PBE before 5.10 hit and weren't the final changes. The damage increase/teamheal would've been actually interesting and somewhat thematic, whereas that CC increase is just missplaced and boring....
: Well I read your poem and rework idea, and I really like them. I suppose my only other question is what part of her old kit was most iconic? About my project, I'm trying to carve out a niche for myself in the Concepts and Creations board, as one of the board's literature writers. As such, I wrote a poem for a Shen main I know, here: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/aQG7B2q7-shen-a-journey It was partly an homage to the old Shen as well as giving Shen mains a kind of hope that people still cared and that he wasn't forgotten. After the positive reception I got, I wanted to write a similar one for another champ. Karma came to mind. As I got info from the old Shen from a Shen main, I wanted to get Karma info from a Karma main. I see you already made a poem though, but I want to take a stab at it myself.
> I suppose my only other question is what part of her old kit was most iconic? That's hard to say. As I said, her shieldbomb was her most iconic damage spell. Shielding key targets while using the opportunity to hurt some badies felt dope. But the _tripwire_ style on her W was incredibly unique too. And since W increased your MS for a straight 4s and could be used on minions, you would usually "walk" your minions back to lane, like a dog. Finally, the combination of increased AP on low hp and a missing%hp heal gave her the name _"Queen Bait"_. It's not even close to what tower diving sustain tank Karma has today, as she would run out of mantra charges, but it was enough for some well planned (and better timed) healing bursts under (her own) tower. There were so many interesting things about her, that the decent champion Karma, that we know today, feels like an empty hull of missed opportunities. It's so hard to explain to someone, who only started playing in Season 6, what's wrong with her, when she objectively is a good champion, but a really bad Karma. > As such, I wrote a poem for a Shen main I know, here: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/aQG7B2q7-shen-a-journey That's really good! The rhymes are dope, the story is touching, the writing is easy to follow. Only criticism I can think of, is that your meter seems off most of the time, but it feels like that's on purpose? > I see you already made a poem though, but I want to take a stab at it myself. Don't ever let that stop you! I would love to see a different take on it. My poem was very self centered and not as much of a story as your poem was. I was mainly writing about why I like her and what I do on the boards. You, however, could highlight some of her character and create a tangeable story, if you use that style you have shown. Looking forward to it!
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SilverSquid

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