Ah, [I see](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/IGuqsyN3-quick-gameplay-thoughts-june-20?comment=000b) Thank you for your inquiry. But again, there go my hopes and dreams.

I like you. I have been advocating for more depth to her kit for a long time. Generally, I argue, that her current kit - with the removed duality - is either boring or oppressive. Riot answered me by removing further depth (e.g. minion shielding) and overbuffing her values. Making her both, boring AND oppressive. It's a joke, really.

Ah, so it was not a Karma specific change? I would love to read up on that. Got a link of some sort?

Technically, yes. In the sense, that you have to hit something to get the heal. And then there is this... the chance of healing someone else. But not in the sense, that you have to hit _YOUR ALLY_ to heal them. It is really close to what she had though, that's right.

> It used to be centred. It was changed to appear on contact with the hitbox. I am not quite sure what you are talking about, as I do not remember such a change, nor do I find one on the wiki. > "the moment it touches the hitbox it sticks to it and spawns a zone X units away from the centre". I think it might be similar to how roots and dashes interact. If Morgana's Dark Binding hits a dashing champion, they will be hit and rooted in place AFTER completing the dash. It would be interesting to see what happens if a Karma RQ hits a dashing Corki or Tristana.

Trusting... lying... it's not about that... You are a random voice on the internet that I would love to believe in an instant. But the past few years have been rough and our hopes have been crushed repeatedly. I just can not believe it until I see it. We are used to getting ignored, when we talk about Karma. We are used to having mechanics cut in exchange for mindless buffs/nerfs. We are used to not getting any _Karma_ out of our Karma. And we are used to getting told that Karma is _fine_ and that there are dozens of champions on a higher priority than her. So, to convince us that things are gonna change, we gonna need to see more than just your words.

So you agree that her playstyle should be changed?

Exactly. They removed what was special/interesting about her and buffed her into relevancy. Our complaints were ignored, because "she was fine" then. Now that they removed her overbuffed values people should finally see what she is; _**A failed rework and a bag of missed potential.**_ She could've been so much more. She _could_ be so much more. Maybe we finally get a non-Rick Rioter to work on her, so she actually can get better. Not stronger. Better. I wouldn't mind if she was underplayed and underrated, if only her kit was interesting.

Yeah. It is said that Karma's RQ explosion is created centered on the first thing hit, so that escaping it is always equally hard. I have never seen it demonstrated so clearly though. Thank you.

She wasn't even designed to be a support. Karma was played more often mid than support in nearly every single season she existed in. Dafuq is this attitude like she is "supposed" to be a support?

Yeah, I had a busy day. Winter PMd me at night to inform me of what Riot is doing, so I thought about skipping the night to write something, but you already delivered. I just happily upvoted and went to bed, lol. So thanks for doing the duty, my friend.

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder830/52974830.jpg On a more serious note; how long did it take you to write this post?

I honestly don't know why it couldn't fit a battlemage. You know, like the kind of mage that is supposed to stay in the MIDDLE of the battle. That has tools to survive there (like a heal or a shield, maybe both). A mage that has to decide when to use utility or damage. You know, like a nice mix of a battlemage and enchanter. Damn it would be great if such a champion could exist in league. A shame they never thought of implementing such a champion. ######I could reflavour the whole fucking Himalaya at this point

_"We currently dont have any plans for Karma, but we think overall, she is in a good spot."_ Come on, I dare you to say it. For once I would love to talk to a Rioter that gets what Karma is, was and needs. Ironically, only Meddler ever came close to this, from what I have read... but he is probably one of the few Rioters left, that even _were around_ for old Karma. I then sometimes wonder, how the newer Rioters even _COULD_ know, what to do with Karma, or what even the problem is her community is having.

_Her_ thing: Duality mage/support with a lot of decision making. Optionally twin dragons for visual identity and damage/health manipulation as unique asset. Read more in [THIS THREAD](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/oxNbhh7j-a-detailed-post-on-karma-and-her-twin-dragons)

Point taken. But Taliyah is no artillery and her combo is too drawn out for a burst mage. I like her design, but overall, she fits very weirdly into the League. My point is, that, if not a battlemage, what exactly would Taliyah be?

I am not sure, to be honest. Battlemages want to be in the middle of the battle. Zyra lacks any kind of defense/sustain. Sure, she has sustained damage, but I don't think that's the (only) point of battlemages. Zyra has the ability of zoning and trapping people in her plants. I think that believing Catchers to have no damage is a mistake, induced by them calling mostly supports catchers, but I don't think it contradicts their role, if they can finish of their prey on their own. I mean, so does a good blitz.

> If anything she needs more nerfs because she does her enchanter job better than other enchanters, I get the distinct feeling you believe the Karma community is asking for buffs? No, fuck that, we never wanted them, we even warned Riot several times of overbuffing her and pointed out that just buffing her wouldn't solve the issues. Half a year later she was pick/ban in LCS. And yes, we do NOT want her to do the enchanter job "better" than others. We want her to do _her_ thing. But Riot fails at nailing down what "her" thing is and calling her just an "enchanter" is symptomatic of their thinking that pushed Karma into a group of enchanters that already are stepping on each others toes. Karma needs direction, not buffs or nerfs. And that direction sure as hell isn't "enchanter".

2 Things: > **Riot has a vision for Karma** and they will be pushing her in that direction until they are happy about it. No, they absolutely have not. Nothing in their treatment of Karma indicates any kind of direction or "vision" they have for her. Every update they have done ignores/waters down her previous strengths and adds more, sometimes opposing strengths. None of her builds are coherent, none of her abilities work in any lane perfectly. There is no vision there. They just buff and nerf stuff until she is at ~50% winrate and that's it. And this is what hurts so much; they killed a unique charakter and ignored her fanbase without replacing it with something worthwhile. > Janna and Soraka were the same too back then and Riot gutted their AP scalings + reworking some abilities. Because their kits were toxic for sololanes and Riot would rather remove them from sololanes and keep them doing well in duo lanes. Karma is different. She wasn't designed with lanes in mind and worked best in sololanes.... for years she WAS similar to Orianna and Lux. She was even classified as "supportive mages" alongside Orianna and Lux and was reworked to fit in along with them. Orianna, Lux, Morgana and Karma. Those were a bunch that were quite similar. Supportive mages or damag-y supports. But Riot forgot about it. And any change to her seems directionless and confused. That's the whole point. We do not disagree with their vision. We demand a vision.

> I do like the idea of not leveling up R and getting 6 level up point in other abilities. It is weird, because she _used_ to have that.

I find it sad that Riot wants to nail Karma down as an enchanter. It makes so little sense. She only has ONE ability that affects her teammates. Her passive is about hitting enemies. Her two other abilities are distinctively about disrupting and hurting others. And her ultimate doesn't really count, since it nowadays only does what the main abilities do.... but slightly better. So, if only a quarter of her abilities is about enchanting her teammates.... why is she ONLY an enchanter??? It's so... weird. It really feels like Riot believes that's all Karma is good for nowadays. Let's ignore her past. Let's ignore her damage capabilities. Let's ignore her selfheal. All she does is shield one person and sometimes shield multiple people. How is that good champion design? How is that not showing Riot's design philosophy problems with Karma? Why not make her selfheal useful on builds other than tank? Why not allow her to heal her allies? Why can't we once have an update to her, that actually considers her damage capabilities in a not-abusive way (which I think was done, when they pushed 80% of her damage into a single burst and removing all but one damage combo)? I hope I did missread or missinterpret something, because I am so confused and disappointed.

I find it weird that Winter is mainly talking about her lore and identity, while you haggle so much about ingame mechanics and playstyle. But that's my appartement anyways, so here goes: 1) She is _"generic"_ as in that her whole theme is just a bland "unleash mage". She has no interesting spell mechanics, her magic has no flavour, she has no unique weapons. Her whole kit is a combination of previously existing mechanics mashed together. Calling _"an enchanter with all-in and poke"_ innovative is a joke. Most enchanters have some kind of pokey behaviour in lane and then enough CC to force an all-in. 2) "All-in and poke" as a niche? What do you take all the other botlane mages for? Shouldn't a niche be something that could be filled by a single champion and this champion alone? Besides, if THAT is her supposed niche, it progresses badly during the game, as this playstyle gets replaced by shieldspamming in lategame. 3) I don't think that winrates is something winter is talking about. And winrates/playrates aren't the only/final factor in a discussion. There is more to champion design than that. 4) She _always_ has been played. The reason _why_ she is played is interesting. It's like saying Lee Sin has no issues because he is played a lot. 5) I agree. I have no reason to doubt that Riot will do her lore eventually. Most likely during a Ionian event. However, I realize that this has been a painful issue for a long time now and thus feeling more emergent to Karma fans, than it might actually be. Mainly because she is one of the few champions that had nearly more lore taken AWAY from her, while others get stuff added to them. I think they just want to hear for once, that Karma indeed has an unsatisfactory backstory/interactions. That is all. How justified this request is, is debatable, but I understand the urge. 6) The point is that she is tied to certain mantras based on her build, instead of the mantras providing her with meaningful decisions no matter what items/lane. It speaks to how incredibly thoughtless her reboot was. Currently it is confusingly easy to be 95% effective with Karma by playing her support and exclusively mantra'ing E after laningphase. Which is unsatisfying. Considerably more so if you remember her having actual decision making at an earlier point (which is what made her interesting to most of her original fans). 7) _"Everyone says Karma is fun to play"_. No. Not true. Even if it was true for "most" players, it still wouldn't constitute a good argument. The discussion here is one of potential. And of the missed opportunities in her past touchups. I mean, we both agree that she could be better. And maybe a considerable amount of people would say she USED TO be better. Not in terms of popularity. Not in terms of winrates. But in terms of ingenuity, design, uniqueness and decision making. Sure, sure, there might be thousands of people who enjoy a simple, popular champion that has been buffed into the meta and had 90% of her depth patched out over time. They might enjoy playing a champion that has so little depth that mastering her takes little effort, but learning her is still rewarding. I keep saying that Karma is hard to learn and easy to master, which is stupid in terms of game design, but actually pretty attractive to a certain middle class of players. She should be too hard for newbies and too boring and unsatisfying for pros (so it's nice for those in the middle). The bad part was overbuffing her instead of adressing her issues made her way too safe to play, to not abuse her shielding power in teamfights, that take little to no skill, but also can't fail. See look, I don't get all of this hate between Old and New Karma fans. I have once tried unifying the playerbase with [one of my reworks](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/oxNbhh7j-a-detailed-post-on-karma-and-her-twin-dragons), and apparantly there _IS another way between_. And I would love to fight for that. I do understand that people fear having something taken away from them, but I also understand those who see her missed and misstreated potential. And yes, there are things more urgent than Karma, but why wouldn't we be allowed to talk about it in the meantime? Why shouldn't Winter make a post getting the community together and exploring those thoughts?

Sustain is still king in ARAM. It was so much worse before they introduced this nerf. Before that any healer you got would just net you a nearly auto-win. It was fun for a while, but I am glad it is way more balanced right now. Yes, it feels weak (especially compared to normal games), but it's better this way.

_"karma is the caitlyn of botlane"_ I thought Caitlyn is the Caitlyn of botlane? Jokes aside; if you are amazed that a mage can nuke squishies then I wonder what kind of game you have been playing up to this point. Also: Your comparisons don't make any sense. Caitlyn is an early game annyoance with another power spike lategame (as an ADC she scales with items), while Karma falls off hard in lategame. And Darius don't give no shit about items as long as he can make you bleed.

Hey there. I will try to make this short and cohesive: * Karma was the first to receive a VGU and thus suffered from Riot's lack of experience. I do not doubt their sincerity in this video, as I realize that knowledge and skill can improve over time * As a Karma main, I am thankful for the new splashes and skins, even though I realize it's maybe only because of her increased playrate, not because out of an ideological drive for equality. They are still doing this for us. * There are many more champions out there who would need attention similar to Karma (and dont get it), it's not like she is singled out here. * I still cringe over Karma's terrible rework to this day and I will create a dedicated thread concerning it. But I just can't blame Riot for pouring love and dedication into new champions. But thank you for caring so much about Karma!

> Benefit of the doubt? Of what? That you are well meaning and know what you are talking about. This ordeal is very ironic. Of course any change will make people angry who love the old things. Of course those will flock to the boards compared to the people who like it and see no reason to talk about it. Of course it will be the old mains who you never heard about before who will have the strongest reason to complain. But they also tend to exeggurate and here you are exeggurating their existance and impact. I have spent about 1.5 years with the Karma community, but I have barely ever seen a thread exceeding the 50 upvotes mark (there only ONCE was a 280 upvotes thread and it was a huge exception). > but people still talk about it on reddit and the boards to this day for seemingly unknown reasons. Because it was a shitty rework. Because it missed the mark on so many levels. They didn't understand that people loved her fanweapons, they didn't understand her playstyle, they failed to communicate with the community, they failed to bring innovation to her while killing off unique concepts, the didn't nail down her role, but made her a washed up combination of recolored versions of already existing spells. They took away much but didn't replace it with anything that could make her fans get over it. Yes, Karma is a _"fine"_ champion. And no, old Karma wasn't perfekt. But the rework was really, really bad. Tha's why people complain. Her old self has been erradicated and something comparable hasn't been implemented yet. People who love the game and loved Karma will never stop feeling this pain, that's why they keep complaining. > All of those champions had atleast 3 people saying "I used to main <insert champion here> but now I don't because the new changes are trash" kind of argument. That must be true of at least 3 people though, following the rules of probability. And it IS a valid argument though. Not a good one, but valid. I mean, if this was true for 80% of mains, there would be a huge problem. If it is true for 8% of mains, it would at least impact Riot in a way. If it is true for 0.8% of mains, it probably is neglectable in terms of game design, but still enough to fill the boards with complaints. See what I mean?

I am gonna give you the benefit of the doubt; But please show me what you mean concerning the Karma rework. Which one do you mean and what is your evidence?

Do the following: * Enable _[Quick Cast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW4qhw4sq14)_ in your options * Hover a character and press **E** to shield them. No clicking needed. * Hold **alt** and press **E** to instantly shield yourself. Finally your days of clicking will be over and you will cast twice as fast!

Those ideas sound faintly familiar :D

I want them to highlight her strenghts and weaknesses. I want them to finally settle on what she ought to be. She is an enchanter, that has more abilities that affect enemies than allies. She is a battlemage that has low sustained damage, long ranged poke and tank scalings. I want them to actually have an idea or inspiration when they do it, not just a bunch of recolored versions of already existing spells. Give her a purpose. Make her feel like the vision you have when you hear "Karma" or "Battlemage" or "Enchanter" or "Duchess". Personally, I would like to see my own rework implemented * [A Detailed Post on Karma and her Twin Dragons](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/oxNbhh7j-a-detailed-post-on-karma-and-her-twin-dragons) Or if that is too much, I would be happy with a small scale update, like this one: * [Quick Fix for Karma](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/RHn0ZE62-quick-fix-for-karma) But anything would be fine, really. As long as Riot gets into touch with the community and we can work something out with the talented designers that did the last few reworks, I am positive it could be awesome.

> Was that the old Karma you guys loved and want back so much? o_O I have seen a lot of confusion lately, why people liked Old Karma in the first place. Mostly I think because New Karma is so popular now and there aren't many people left who ever got a chance to play her old self. I am going to create a thread that attempts to clear up this issue. In the meantime, you could watch Karma's Old Champion Spotlight! https://youtu.be/1CIWW1MEbUY

Aaaaah, good old Quepha, still spreading missinformation about Karma, I see. Nearly forgot you existed! Good to see you, man! I am currently working on a new thread on Karma. Wanna stop by and troll me later? It could be fun, just like old times!

> [{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=6XsYTc4Z,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-04-10T07:08:33.743+0000) > > http://img00.deviantart.net/15d8/i/2013/153/2/d/karma_rework_portrait_riotzeronis_by_zeronis-d67la54.jpg The last one was actually a concept art for her rework. And yeah, there are some good ones, but the amount of art about her is surprisingly low, considering she has been part of this game since season 1. But then again, barely anybody played her until last season, so with a small fanbase like hers, it's kind of to be expected...

There is so much missinformation being spread about her. It pains me, whenever I have to read it. It's like the people who say Karma never used her shieldbomb after her rework, so they didn't care that it was removed. ... I should get back to writing posts about her.

> You make really good posts. Thank you! And I would love to make more, but I am currently running out of time, to make something that fits my standards. > You should make a poll or a petition asking people if they think Riot should implement Karma's shield animation I guess I could. But there are two problems; * I don't know whether the shielding animation is put only on the new skin or will finally be implemented for all skins. * I personally do not care about animations. It is very hard to write a passionate and convincing post when you do not have the passion or conviction yourself. I want her to play like herself again, I care about gameplay, but I don't bother with that visual stuff. That's why I kind of doubt my usefulness here.

Are you implying that getting more shield/heal is.... a bad thing?

This looks EXACTLY like the animation she had YEARS AGO on the PBE (during her rework) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ_luD0oPXo&amp;feature=youtu.be&amp;t=46s I am not sure whether this makes me think, that Riot is finally getting their shit together with Karma, or whether it makes me even more cynical, because it took them 4 years to realize they forgot to implement this.... and they are now bringing it back on an expensive skin...

> But, apparently old Karma never used RW. She sure did. To get faster back to lane (tether minion), to chase someone as a duo, it was her best tool to CC a target, so her team could catch up,.... and slowing an enemy for 40% while getting a boost for 40% yourself was an easy way of kiting/getting away from someone.

What Karma needs: * An interesting & cohesive passive * An ultimate that is about _meaningful decisions_, rather than _repetitive enhancment_ * More abilities that can be used offensively/defensively or on enemies/friends * A rioter that cares about making her _"good"_ instead of _"fine"_ What Karma **doesn't** need: * More shield buffs * Longest root in the game * Tank scalings * Having her damage sweet spot at _max range_ * Having unique features taken away and given to other champions

I am just missing this _"well, the game didn't go well, but my stats seem fine"_ feeling, that is provided to other roles, but not supports. Or even the other way around, to allow for some reflective work. I disagree with the idea that a person must be _"awesome"_ first, for him/her to feel validated by seeing their impact in a numerical way. Gamification is a thing because people like **_seeing_** their impact in a more direct way, which feels more rewarding. Even if it is just little steps. Games tend to add sounds and numbers to trigger the positive feelings more often. The sound of ~~Zelda~~ Link opening a box will always sound good to me, even though it might just be "noise". This is not supposed to fix ALL of supports' problem or make EVERYONE love supporting, but it's a step that I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be added. For clarity, for motivation, for reflection, as a reward. And yes, maybe we can go one step further with catch skills, but that seems to be advanced stuff compared to what I am suggesting.

> 'instances of an enemy being revealed by your wards' We are maybe leaving the realms of practicality and just spending time in the realm of desire, but hey, I enjoy the conversation either way.

I dunno. I would already be happy about a "damage prevented" or "damage shielded" stat. It would help to estimate your impact for a single game, as well as making it easier to compare different shielding supports.

There is still no way to tell how well you did as a support. If only you could see for yourself that you played well, how much you protected others or messed with the enemies. It could provide a feeling of achievement, independent of others. If you want to argue that having game statistics doesn't help feeling validated, then we probably don't need any at all?

She was the first proper VGU and you can tell. There is so much that went wrong in terms of her rework, starting with lacking ressources, time and dedicated people, over a lack of understanding of her playstyle, up to the removal of unique features that were replaced by bland ones. It's not that I dislike new Karma (I mained for the longest of times, tbh), but in terms of _reworks_ Karma was just horrible.

Hey King, good to see you. I have a very busy schedule at the moment, so I can't keep up spewing out my Karma posts atm and had to fall back on more.... general and shorter topics. My "Karma was a horrible rework" thread is in the works for longer than I would love to admit and I barely got time to brainstorm with Warden on potential Karma abilities. On topic: There is certainly more to be done with the support role as a whole, but it confuses me that after all those years of support being a position people don't like to fill, Riot never seemed to catch the drift of highlighting their value through stats. There is a reason OverWatch puts a lot of emphasis on stat highlights.... supports generally get the MVP cards more often than damage dealers, to present their impact more clearly. I know that there is other things to be done (and I've been yearning for this enchanter update for so long now), but I can't possibly see any downside to upgrading the stat tracking system, and it doesn't seem to be as much work as a class update...

Thank you, my friend. I would love to have a real game designer to have a look on this and tell me their honest opinion. But I don't know how to get them to do it, without being obnoxious.

I generally agree. There are probably even more reasons. But I wonder whether they could also be solved so directly. 1) Yeah, I think that's why hard CC and strong utility are key to support champions. They are always useful and always impactful, no matter how much money you have. And this is another reason why shield/heal champions are a bit harder to balance (or they have literally no progression based on items, which doesn't feel good either). 2) I never experienced it like that. But I have been known as a support main and I generally don't mind playing "unviable" roles. So maybe I am not a good judge. 3) To be fair he is also "my ADC" :D

If I, as a game designer, keep removing options from her midlane playstyle and keep buffing the strong parts of her supporting (mostly her shielding), I DO push her towards that, no matter if intentional or not. And I do not know which one would be worse, though, because of a billion-dollar gaming company I do expect they can predict the results of their design choices. At least generally.

_"When Karma becomes viable outside of botlane"_ _"...Riot nerfs her back into it."_ No offense, I can fully stand behind your general sentiment, but Karma has more frequently and more viably been played in mid than bot, for nearly all her existance. The issue I have is that Riot keeps pushing her in there, while pretending they want her to be viable in both lanes. Now seeing people believe she has always been there is unsettling to me.