: Karma, when played as a mage, has three abilities, and no real passive. Having the CDR on her passive buffed by 0.5 second isn't changing that.
Exactly. But it promotes the unhealthy RW spamming which made Tank Karma so obnoxious to begin with. I do understand that they want to push power into support and mage Karma in a very simple way, but I consider this a risky move.
: So she'll use her abilities in a teamfight? Like any other AP mage? What's the problem again?
The problem is a complete lack of depth and decision making. This turns her into a mage that has essentially 3 abilities and no real passive. Not that I expected the small buff to adress any of that...
: @Meddler About this Karma buff
She needs a general buff and this is the most... general part of her kit, I guess? But meddling (heh) with the passive seems troublesome, since this can go overboard quickly. Machine gun playstyle incoming. Maybe tank Karma returning. Support Karma getting closer to a perma shield... Personally I would prefer some more evenly spread buffs to some _safer_ numbers, like shield values, damage values, etc. Even removing the W casting time would probably be more safe.
Nasuuna (NA)
: Bottom line, I want the shield bomb back. If the shield itself has to suffer for it so be it. if they want a speed boost in her kit still add it to her w where allies move fast towards the leashed target
> if they want a speed boost in her kit still add it to her w where allies move fast towards the leashed target That's a neat idea! And I think we all agree on the shieldbomb. I hope Meddler saw the desire for this last time he asked. I mean, it WAS the most upvoted answer to his question, so...
: Stylistically I prefer the old Karma for the diplomat thing, it gives her a different depth. Imagine her and Swain opposed as she was in THAT role. Noxus values strength, but forced into diplomacy would be tossing Noxus upside-down, something that she as a character was supposed to be capable of. Now as-is, she's lore-wise this generic "power-within" and "defend the meek" cliche. That's not fun. It hasn't really got this edge of enjoyable storytelling. (I think a lot of the more creative and fun lore-design has been toned down. Trundle from torchbearer of burden into DUMB TROLL RULE YOU. Janna from Zaun orphan into "Air Goddess incarnate" (Anivia's new lore overlaps.) They've made improvements to some lore, but some still needs a real thought into how it composites. Karma gameplay-wise originally presented a diametric design. Two halves of a whole. Ying-yang may be a cliche description, but "push gives to pull" and all that does ring a very strong design. Her passive giving that "I give what I take" feel and her kit was balanced around that idea. They needed to tool around that idea and design which was core. Her tether was oddly the skill I felt most interesting to play around, since it functionally created a unique style. Then they REALLY needed to complete overhaul her when she could no longer target wards. Two of her core tricks removed. Drop a ward, bomb it with an offensive shield for some ranged poke. (Difficult to play against, but also costed a ward and cooldown.) This was the downside of that ward targeting. However tethering a ward and using it as a guide-point was very functionally unique, allowing her to set-up her clothesline sweeps more efficiently and also creating a repositioning tool. Her current design is so against that, it's not even funny. It's all "more for me and more for me", where she takes more for what she's taken. (That sounds confusing to read.) She gets damage and benefits for anything she's dealt and costed upon herself. She's not manipulating the enemy anymore, which was very fun to play as. Also the fans were fun AND cool. Definitely a design that I enjoyed in games like Dynasty Warriors (Sima Yi, Zhang He and the Qiao sisters all had unique designs around how they used their fans as weapons. Specifically 4, newer versions seem to keep cutting out weapons and characters.)
Those are some excellent points from a sytlistic viewpoint. I come from a gameplay perspective, so I adore people who are proficient with other skills retaining to the same topic. > It's all "more for me and more for me", where she takes more for what she's taken. (That sounds confusing to read.) Actually, I thought that was rather poetic. Important sentences charm with their weight and endurance, not by being easy to digest. > She gets damage and benefits for anything she's dealt and costed upon herself. She's not manipulating the enemy anymore, which was very fun to play as. Again, this is what I keep trying to hint at, but you summed it up pretty well. Thank you for your valid criticism. But one thing I do wonder; would a person as knowledgeable as you also have some suggestions for the upcoming update?
Broporo (NA)
: Ayyyyy I love reading our players ideas! You guys are just as important as anyone else in my eyes. I wasn't the one who locked the other thread, but they did mention this is somewhat normal for older threads. EDIT: Seriously though, those ideas were hella cool xD
Whoever you talked to, whatever you did: I must thank you. The thread is unlocked again. You have made quite a lot of people happy!
: For real lol
[My thread](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/oxNbhh7j-a-detailed-post-on-karma-and-her-twin-dragons) got unlocked again oO???
: > [{quoted}](name=Seer Lu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6Vj3mGFF,comment-id=000800010000,timestamp=2017-09-27T05:53:51.189+0000) > > By no means I think the theme is perfect but I really like the idea behind it. > If they however manage to expand on the idea and create good visual indicators that she possesses those twin dragon do you think you might grow up on the idea/theme? > > When I think of it...green is actually in the middle of the colour spectrum and it leans neither towards the red nor the purple(or blue as people like to call it the opposite of red). In other words this colour is supposed to represent balance. > > I do however like the idea of using gold colour. It sounds very...elegant to me :D Big thumbs up for this! :) > Thank you for your opinion though! Had they actually expanded on the twin dragons theme then sure, it's fine. Yin and Yang are often represented with a Tiger/Dragon motif or black/white of either, so it would fit her. But at the moment, it was briefly mentioned...and that was it. Rather pointless to talk about it only to not make it more specific. Unfortunately for Riot, her relaunch lacked readibility. The colors doesn't scream Ionia, especially with purple representing evil/darkness in the LoL universe. With a lighter shade of purple, by default, Karma can be seen as having evil/impure intentions as well. Not something they want to portray to someone who is supposedly of noble actions. If you looked at her, you couldn't tell where she's from. Whereas if you look at Sona, Akali, Shen, Zed, Kennen, Irelia, Lee Sin, and Master Yi (plus, a lesser extent, Syndra), you could tell. Their theme is basically Asian. There's not that could be seen with Karma aside from her name. There was an idea by Zeronis for Karma that looked pretty amazing, but it was scrapped for this current nonsense of clothes. There was black, white, red, gold, and green in it. That looked Ionian. This ugly shade of purple that blends into her dark skin makes her look washed out. As a kicker, her WW skin is also purple. There's so many colors on the spectrum, yet they defaulted to purple. Not even blue/white which represented snow/winter, but purple.
I am sorry, I don't want to interrupt this beautiful conversation, but you guys keep mentioning the twin dragons a lot. Did you by any chance read my [Twin Dragon Rework Suggestion](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/oxNbhh7j-a-detailed-post-on-karma-and-her-twin-dragons), or is this a coincidence?
: Ok, so, I did some brainstorming on possible themes for Karma (or maybe she's all of them put together?). I don't know if I like all of them, but I'll put it out for everyone to see. --- **SACRIFICE** Karma chose to stain her hands with blood to preserve the pacifistic ways of her people as well as save their lives. This theme centers around one individual sacrificing themselves for the greater good of the team. Possibly that individual is Karma; possibly someone else. Maybe Mantra could be used to choose which of the two it is. **WILLPOWER** Power corrupts, as can be seen with the darker Ionian champions (although in Varus' case it was more the opposite). This theme presents Karma as being strong willed enough to wield power without being corrupted by it. However, the more often you call upon power the more tempted you may be to use it. Treat this razor's edge carefully. **SERENITY** Karma is, first and foremost, a spiritual leader. She is not a general marshaling troops but a charismatic icon who has spent most of her life using her magic to protect people. t was only a time of great peril that forced her to do harm. This theme is about Karma protecting her allies and warding off enemies by making it difficult and dangerous for them to advance.
> SACRIFICE I like it. Whenever I create a rework suggestion, I always want to reward taking hits. The most successful example was a beacon, that would heal nearby allies for the damage the target took. Similarly, it would damage allies within range. I think we concur on this theme. It's very _karmic_ afterall. > WILLPOWER I am not convinced. As you pointed out, other champions fit this one better. Wisdom and balance rank higher for me. The willpower theme was also what added the unleash mage identity to her, which I find too generic. > SERENITY Again, I like this one. Combined with sacrifice, I see Karma as a person that fights besides her people, suffering with those that serve her. As a battlemage/enchanter I think this could translate well into game mechanics.
: I took a few minutes to browse the lore on Ionia and this is what I came up with: Ionian spirituality is about peace with yourself and harmony with the world around you. Ionian buildings and temples build with nature in mind, rather than clearing it out of the way. Also the vastyan tribes in Ionia have more contact with their human counterparts. Ionia's villains (Zed, Syndra, Jhin) all represent dominance. They follow their path regardless of how it affects others and consider other opinions to be wrong. They chafe under any sort of restrictions, rather than accept that they must share the world with other people. Supposedly Karma wants to unite these two beliefs into a new path. Keep the harmony of the first while borrowing the power of the second. What do people think of this interpretation? What kind of abilities can we come up with that relate to such a theme?
The way I understood this was, that the Ionian monks wouldn't give up on their peace loving nature even when the Noxians started bashing their country. Karma said _"Y'all bein crazy. Get yo ass to da fron' and whip 'em in de baby boxes."_ Or put differently: She rallied the Ionian people because she understood that, while war was a way of destruction, so was complete neglection of force. Being willing to fight to uphold peace is a necessity. A balance of dominance, as you put it, and freedom must be uphold to rule properly. Or put differntly again: _A death can save thousands, a life saved can doom millions._
: To be honest I think the heal being on the tether is a good thing, especially if we could get it to work on allies. It would be a very unique take on ally healing, being a tether with the conditions it has (2 part heal, stronger a lower hp). Would definitely make for a very interactive and balanced take on enchanter healing, which I think could be really cool.
You don't need to convince ME of that idea, lol. I am just saying, I am seeing healthy ways of implementing the (ally) heal on either RQ or RW.
: > I am not quite sold on how current RW heals, but some kind of selfheal must stay in her kit, I think we all agree on this. Karma used to be Mrs. Bait and still does it well to this day. When you say this, is it in reference to the tank scaling on the heal, or the heal being on her tether itself?
I am mostly referring to the tank scaling and secondly referring to the casting time. That being said, I don't think the heal _needs_ to be on the tether.
Seer Lu (EUW)
: I like almost everything about current Karma so I will just list the thing that I like the most and the ones I dislike. Things that I like and don't want them gone: * RW heal * twin dragons theme( and outfit at some extent :P ) * current E( low shield value but also MS ) * single Mantra charge * W root after maintaining the tether( as a good reward but no stronger than just a root ) Things I don't like: * RW extra root( it gets to the point she has too much and unneeded cc ) * RE mega shield Old Karma didn't have a lot of things I liked but those that I did were very unique and would agree with any fan that they should be implemented. These are: * tether interaction with allies and enemies who pass trough it * shieldbomb I don't know if this is the place but** I would like to ask people who liked the 2 mantra charges...why? Why do you think that having 2 mantra charges are better than 1?** My opinion here is that having only 1 mantra charge but one where it feel either impactful because you made that "wise" decision or you made the wrong decision and lost the fight( it kinda feels karmatic to me ) is better. By no means to show disrespect but when I watched youtube videos of classic Karma gameplay 95% of the gameplay was: 1) press R 2) press E 3) press R again 4) press Q 5) press W if you even leveled it up I know it unfair because not everyone plays Karma the same. But can you tell me that her RQ was as good as her RE? Why people call her shieldbomb so much? That they want it back but I **almost** never see people write anything about her RQ...let alone her RW. **Another question I have is: Do you think her old black and white dress fit her? For someone who has the name Karma?** I would really like to see **detailed** explanation on these questions and have some nice discussion. If those questions were already answered by some of you I apologise as I either never really saw it or your explanation was no enough for me to comprehend.
I am not quite sold on _how_ current RW heals, but some kind of selfheal must stay in her kit, I think we all agree on this. Karma used to be Mrs. Bait and still does it well to this day. > I don't know if this is the place but I would like to ask people who liked the 2 mantra charges...why? This is a place to discuss and broaden our horizon. I can only show you my opinion for now, but maybe it helps a bit. I do see troubles with 2 Mantra charges, but also upsides. The strategic value of a mantra charge was immense. Mechanically, watching Karma was quite boring. But seeing WHEN she did WHAT to WHOM was the whole deal. er passive gave her increasing amounts of free AP for dropping hp. Deciding whether to shield a minion to ensure damage with your shieldbomb, but dropping your defenses, either gaining more AP or possibly dying was already hard enough. But there was so much more to it. E-RQ was your defensive combo. Q-RE was the offensive one (since mantra either added damage or healing). W could be used freely to support this. However, the combo you describe would be absolute madness, if you didn't _need_ the heal. Better to wait for a second shieldbomb a few seconds later. It was all about timing and using your ressources. With her passive, her health became a ressource, that you could play around using your shield, heal (and thus mantra) and your enemy's capability. Her mantra was a ressource to spend on extra damage, extra heal or some extra utility. But they weren't shoehorned into one big ability burst, making the power distributed more healthily (compared to today's Karma that has 80% of her damage in one spell). I could go on for longer, but I think you catch the drift. 2 Mantra charges give you more options than "I go or I don't go". It asks you to decide when to go for how much. It honed in on Karma's strong decision making requirement, nailing her down as a champion that required Game Knowledge (wisdom) rather than mechancial skill. > But can you tell me that her RQ was as good as her RE? It wasn't, usually. Unless you dropped to low hp, then the free AP from your passive and the missing%hp heal would kick in, making it stronger than the shield. Also, RQ became the protective spell in teamfights, since it kept your whole team alive. I remember running a ARAM with old Karma and at one point my team just stopped dying, because of the massive shields I could provide and the healing I could do, since they clumped so much (well, it's ARAM afterall). Probably wouldn't work today, since back then healing was king, today it's more balanced. > Why people call her shieldbomb so much? It was more obviously unique, more iconic to her. It is the gameplay equivalent to the visual theft of her fanweapons. That's not the only issue with her as a whole, but the most prominent one. > That they want it back but I almost never see people write anything about her RQ Well yeah, it's not that interesting. If you follow my threads, you probably found me proposing merging old and new RQ multiple times, though. I want RQ to be a targeted AoE spell (think Vel'koz E), that heals allies in the area, as the old spell did. This allows her to hit enemies more reliably, while nerfing her long-range poke to more dodgeable levels. It would also make her stronger against melee opponents, as she could stand in the heal herself. And it fixes the positioning problems old RQ had. > ...let alone her RW. Many people didn't understand the tether, and the mantra'd version was just... plain stupid. There was a lot of power in there, speeding 2-3 people of your team by 40% for 5 whole seconds was bonkers (and doing it again up to 1s later). The creativity and skillcheck the basic ability provided was insane, but people usually just didn't _feel_ the mantra at all. It just upped the MS bonus/malus from 10-20% to 20-40%. So people just complain about losing the tether itself and the interaction with her allies, not the mantra version. It was just unimpressive and scaled weirdly. > Do you think her old black and white dress fit her? For someone who has the name Karma? Kind of. I am not a visual guy, but Karma had so many buddhist ideas in her design, it made sense. Yin-Yang colors, Buddha backstory, Karma name and abilities... Bit too much _Earth_ and too little _Runeterra_, but I enjoyed the appeal nonetheless. > I would really like to see detailed explanation on these questions and have some nice discussion. You've come to the right place then :D If you need any further explanation or have objections, I will try to do my best!
Ahris (NA)
: I got a karma skin from chest so looking forward in playing her after her changes.
Is there anything you are looking forward to in particular?
: The design team describes a champion as having three pillars: gameplay, narrative, and art. So let's take a look at that. --- **Gameplay:** One of the big barriers I've observed among Karma fans is that there isn't really a consensus on what kind of champion she's supposed to be. The most common I see referenced are Enchanter and Battle Mage. She seems to vaguely line up with Orianna and Lux but is clearly more support-oriented. To me her most iconic actual skill is her Mantra. Without it she wouldn't be Karma, and (to me) her passive creates an easy skill-based feedback loop. More skilled players are rewarded with more Mantras. Now, the currently incarnation of this isn't ideal, but the concept is sound. **Narrative:** Karma's lore describes her as an extremely strong-willed (to the point of manifesting fiery twin dragons through sheer willpower) and spiritual woman who seeks to revolutionize Ionia's spiritual practices. Specifically she is described as wanting to combine traditional spiritual practices with military strength. **Art:** Her various splash arts seem to center around her being calm, peaceful, and spiritual (with Warden Karma standing out as an exception). Two of her skins depict her meditating (three if you count the classic, although it's not quite clear what she's doing there), and two depict her as a semi-divine spirit. --- I'm not really sure how helpful this was. Karma is clearly a spiritual individual, but I'm not sure how that leads to a coherent kit.
> I'm not really sure how helpful this was. Karma is clearly a spiritual individual, but I'm not sure how that leads to a coherent kit. I enjoyed reading this. It's well struktured and feels like an objective but slightly more distant view than I am used from other Karma mains and myself. I teaches me how others can see this divide or her identity problems. Thank you Jim.
: This is solid, and a well written post. I enjoyed its entirety and I appreciate your efforts. Thank you for posting a unifying idea instead of just one more divisive one like so many others would have. You almost had me with the pineapple bit, well played sir/madame, well played. (If it isn't clear yet, I agree with this. Also I think you should create a post prompting players to discuss what they like about old and new karma, it would be awesome to see such a discussion stewarded by you.)
> Also I think you should create a post prompting players to discuss what they like about old and new karma, it would be awesome to see such a discussion stewarded by you I am getting there. Needed to get in the habit of writing again. Also I felt the need to evaluate the current situations and get a feeling for the boards/community, as well as checking whether my facts are straight. This is my first call to action, to get more Karma mains to the board and the discussion going. I plan on making a less informative thread, that instead will teach ME what people want. I.e. I wanna reap what this thread is hoping to inspire. Follow up steps would trying to find easy consensus and a collection of ideas. Or me condensing them into a rework suggestion, so we can beta-test some with the community and Riot can see what is generally liked and disliked. But that's still a considerably long way to go. PS: I did read your Varus thread, btw. I felt a bit lost and first and I do not think I can say anything more productive than King already did. For once, I do find the AS passive really awkward and missfitting, but ADC is probably my least played role, so I am not quite sure of the intent here. I think it was "easier farming and some steroid/snowball for TF". I do not believe that Varus has troubles farming, atm, and proccing blight to gain AS seems more reasonable to me, for stretched out Teamfights. As for what the new W should do, I am still unsure. Mobility is out, another active is probably overbearing, maybe just an AA-reset range increased double blight stack attack could do it. Sounds a bit too simple in my book, but could work. To make it scale or allow leveling, some bonus damage probably needs to be added. Proccing blight with different abilities for different effects appears risky to me, but worth exploring in thought. This became longer than expected. Oh well...
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6Vj3mGFF,comment-id=000200000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-09-26T21:00:26.592+0000) > > You prefer military calls to arms over inspirational speeches, don't you? I want the point of the thread. > You are quick to judge. I actually DID read like half of it. You go on too long without saying anything of substance. > Can you do better though? I don't just harp on upvote-farm topics, so it's a hit-or-miss thing for me. > Okay now you only sound salty. Over what? > Are you gonna make points or just hateful assumptions? What's hateful about anything I said?
> I want the point of the thread. You should have found it if you really read the first half. * _"Karma is in a HUGE identity crisis, that I will explore in this thread"_ * _"We need to come together."_ > You go on too long without saying anything of substance. If the history of Karma's rework and the consequental identity crisis is of no substance to you, then you are not my target demographic, I guess. > I don't just harp on upvote-farm topics, so it's a hit-or-miss thing for me. Is that a creative way of saying _no_? > What's hateful about anything I said? There is a constructive way to be honest, and there is one that just puts others down. You are jumpy, but lean towards the latter. If you really don't see it you might need to check with others.
: but..the current karma has slow and root bro
Yeah, I said it's only strong on paper, not that it didn't exist. And I am thinking a lot whether she should have CC at all. It's not her strong point, imo, and she could probably do well without it. Freeing up power to pour into other parts of her kit.
: im vegan , kappa. eh... in my opinion karma was always a support type champion with strong abilities and CC and shields .. and self heals .. and more anyway ! she is good going against champions like pantheon etc.. because she counters them hard ! :)
> in my opinion karma was always a support type champion with strong abilities and CC and shields .. and self heals .. and more anyway ! Well, you are completely correct here, except for one. Old Karma nearly completely lacked CC and New Karma's CC is mostly only strong on paper.
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6Vj3mGFF,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-26T17:33:01.470+0000) > > What's a call to action without flowery language? Exactly that: A call to action without the bullshit > What's a dissertation without lightheartedness? Exactly that: A dissertation without the cringe-inducing jokes. > I do not value the opinion of people > on subjects they only know titles of. No one's gonna read this piece for you to get anything other than that, anyway. Besides, you'll be ready to live it up if someone doesn't let on the notion that they didn't read your post, so long as they agree with you.
> A call to action without the bullshit You prefer military calls to arms over inspirational speeches, don't you? > A dissertation without the cringe-inducing jokes. You are quick to judge. Can you do better though? > No one's gonna read this piece for you to get anything other than that, anyway. Besides, you'll be ready to live it up if someone doesn't let on the notion that they didn't read your post, so long as they agree with you. Okay now you only sound salty. Are you gonna make points or just hateful assumptions?
: No you aren't. You filled the thing with flowery language and random heckling jokes and pictures. Be concise so people will read what you need to say instead of agree/disagree based on the title alone.
What's a call to action without flowery language? What's a dissertation without lightheartedness? > Be concise so people will read what you need to say instead of agree/disagree based on the title alone. I do not value the opinion of people on subjects they only know titles of.
: Hawaiian pizza is delicious.
I shouldn't have included this joke, I am getting downvoted by pizza lovers now :D
: I kinda wish you trimmed the fat on this post. It's an eyesore, and I'm saying this because many people probably agree, but won't tell you.
Trust me, I am trying to be as short and precise as possible. But if you are not willing to read, my threads are generally not for you. I have come to terms with it. Thank you for trying to help out, though. I like honest people.
Rioter Comments
Shahamut (NA)
: I want to see Karma have a much clearer theme in general, though I would personally like to see a "give and take" theme really played up. That way when people say "Karma's a *****", they can mean it :P On a more serious note, some ability to help allies that is stronger if the ally has helped her at all (provided heals, shields, using ignite/exhaust on champion she is in combat with) and something else for enemies, some kind of return mechanic, whether it be for damage or cc or both, something that gives back based on what you put in. No idea how you would balance it all, but it is one of the things I like about Karma's mantra/W combo: You all in, thinking its an easy kill, but then she roots you, and heals for a bunch (based on missing health right? More healing based on damage she has taken). Im by no means a Karma main, and I have never gotten to play her prior to her changes that people seem to dislike so much, but I would love to see her with a more clear theme.
> I would love to see her with a more clear theme. You and me both. And nearly every single Karma main I have ever met. > some ability to help allies that is stronger if the ally has helped her at all That's a bit hard to do. You would pour power into her kit, that is neigh unusable. She _is_ supposed to be the support in a duo lane (ADC's usually don't shield/heal their support) and in a solo lane it would be wasted, outside of teamfights. Even then you would probably have Karma as mid/top and only your support would profit form it. I like your way of thinking, but it does not translate well into game mechanics. > You all in, thinking its an easy kill, but then she roots you, and heals for a bunch (based on missing health right? More healing based on damage she has taken). I love how people keep forgetting about her _"mega root"_. Which just reassures me how pointless it is. Karma used to have extra damage when mantraing her W, which meant she not only healed a lot, but also did a lot of damage (her second most mantra damage, only topped by hitting both parts of RQ). This was arguably more reasonable, because an enemy was punished for staying in combat with her. If they disengaged, Karma didn't get the second heal and the damage procs off. Way more _karma_ than the stupid root. Also, on a side not, yes, you are correct, it's 20% of her missinghp. Which is stupid btw, because it encourages stacking health instead of AP. This again means, this is either too strong on tank Karma (which shouldn't reeeeaallly be a thing) or too weak on both support and mage Karma. Currently, it's a mild form of both. If she healed for 200hp instead, however....
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=2wjE4Iqs,comment-id=000c0002000800000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-22T23:28:38.148+0000) > > I can relate. > But since I have not heard that from them yet, > nobody complained about it when it was around, > there seems to be no objective reason against the damage, > and people love the shieldbomb... Ok, I agree with you there. > I would rather push the shieldbomb or finally get my answer. > > I am simply trying to convey what the last 2 years have taught me. > You seem positive and learning quickly. > > Imho, this was one of the many mistakes in her rework. > Her mantra turned into a cheaper Heimer ult, which is a problem; > he gets it in addition to his turret identity, while Karma draws all of her identity from it. I see how this is a problem, but I am skeptical that Riot will make significant enough changes to fix this. > I can understand why you wanted to go down this way, just judging from the kit she has now, > but looking at the Karma community, this is not well received. Fair enough, I am merely discussing ideas to see what works. Thanks for helping me see that more clearly! > Well, either this makes Karma dependent on OTHERS shielding her target (which I don't find appealing... again, this doesn't work in solo lanes either) or she needs to press E+R+E or something. Which is clunky. Maybe a more simple solution is to add a travel time to the explosion (think Riven's R) or give it a 0.5s delay. Maybe both. Ok simplest solution IMO is what you suggested, _put it on a timer delay._ R + E shields the target, then starts a timer, when the timer runs out it detonates to deal damage and shield in an AoE around that target. Could re-shield the target if more power is needed. > Personally, I hold that spending mantra is already enough room for counterplay. Since it's a rare ressource and spending your shield to deal damage leaves you open to retaliation. And you can bait another mantra. Or you can bait shieldbomb to DENY another mantra. Cooldowns are one aspect of counterplay, but readability and opportunity to react can be equally important. I think part of the problem is that it was an instant-cast AoE that had both Offensive and Defensive impact. IMHO it should offer opponents more reaction time that it did before they removed it. > Keep the ideas coming though. I had to make like a dozen of reworks until I got positive feedback, so I feel like having many ideas is more important than having the perfect ones right away. Thanks a bunch! I'm greatly enjoying discussing design with you, and if you're open to discussing other designs and characters in the future then I would be grateful for the opportunity to do so.
> I see how this is a problem, but I am skeptical that Riot will make significant enough changes to fix this. I mean, if this is close to the 5.10 update, then it would be possible, since they did **the opposite** back then, lol. Being skeptical and hopeful seem both reasonable though. > I think part of the problem is that it was an instant-cast AoE that had both Offensive and Defensive impact. We can only guess what the problem was. Other than ricklessabandon grossly missjudging this ability. Or all of Karma, tbh. The thing with the Offensive&Defensive part was, that it could fail. Shield only your team and it was meh. Damage the enemies and it was okay. Hit 10 champions and it was worth an ultimate. But again, why would anyone clump against Karma? It's like people standing in a line to fight Twitch ^^' And realisticly, you would usually hit 2-4 people. Today's RE is way more problematic, imo. [Because it always works at peak performance](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/UgL90Jpr-psa-karma-was-at-her-healthiest-when-mantra-e-dealt-damage). There is no counterplay for the enemies (positioning) to make it less impactful. And baiting it out is nearly impossible, since lategame Karma has it all the time... again, a problem introduced by ricklessabandon's idea of making Karma more of a machine-gun with mantra. I dunno what went through his mind, tbh. That being said, I am generally a great fan of readability and counterplay. Current Karma has a lot of mechanical counterplay in Q and W already, so I didn't mind pushing a bit of reliable damage into RE. In fact, between 3.5 and 5.10 it was her lowest, but safest mantra damage (only missing RQ's second half was lower). This tradeoff seemed to escape most people though. But again, I like readability in spells and a short... warning before the RE seems reasonable, even to diehard Karma fans, as far as I've seen. > if you're open to discussing other designs and characters in the future then I would be grateful for the opportunity to do so. Sure, I'd love to help out! I must warn you though, I am not that well versed with other champions.
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=2wjE4Iqs,comment-id=000c00020008000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-22T22:40:38.646+0000) > > Before I even hear a single viable game design reason for why the damage aspect is bad, I will not consider this. I have read every single Karma related red post and I have been working with the Karma community for 2 years now and not a SINGLE reason has been brought forth. Fair enough. I'm not opposed to the damage anyway, just trying to provide alternatives in case we find out Riot is opposed to it. > On to your ideas; This must be considered carefully. > A straight up buff is out of the question. This means, the movementspeed would have to go. Be prepared to have an idea for that. Additionally, you probably don't want to have a heal/shield in one ability. It makes both low impact and kind of mushy. And I could imagine a lot of reasons why having a shield that spawns shields is another problem. > One of them being, that it's worthless in solo lanes. Thanks, those are some great points. I see now how I made it a little too wishy-washy, or 'mushy' as you put it. Solo-lane effects is another good point, I hadn't considered what it would do to Karma in that situation. I see now that it would have to be solidified or made more consistent in order to work well. > Also I started to dread mantra abilities that simply give you more of the same. > There are so many of those "enance basic ability" effects out there, > let's have Karma do something better. To be fair, Karma's current design kind of is all about using her ultimate to fire off more powerful versions of her other abilities. That said, I understand and I'm also not opposed to this sort of change. > PS: I am sorry if I am sounding harsh, this is not meant to be against you. I appreciate you throwing new ideas into the bunch, but I have gotten used to giving precise feedback towards Karma ideas and I might not care for my tone too much. Again, please feel appreciated for using your head creatively and positively. Lol thanks, I understood. No offense taken! Here's another idea to consider, what if she couldn't cast R+E just anytime. What if instead she had to cast it after a target had already been shielded? It could be made so that casting R+E would be what would cause the Bomb to detonate from the shielded target's position while also making it shield allies. By delaying it in this manner it offers enemies time to see and react, while also offering Karma more power by being able to re-shield her target? If needed it could also be given a slowly growing AoE (grows like Galio's taunt) that applies effects to allies or enemies when it reaches them. Some, all, or none of this idea could work. Do not think that I want all of this as a complete package, please. I'm open to discussing individual parts of it separate from one another.
> Fair enough. I'm not opposed to the damage anyway, just trying to provide alternatives in case we find out Riot is opposed to it. I can relate. But since I have not heard that from them yet, nobody complained about it when it was around, there seems to be no objective reason against the damage, and people love the shieldbomb... I would rather push the shieldbomb or finally get my answer. > Thanks, those are some great points. I am simply trying to convey what the last 2 years have taught me. You seem positive and learning quickly. > To be fair, Karma's current design kind of is all about using her ultimate to fire off more powerful versions of her other abilities. Imho, this was one of the many mistakes in her rework. Her mantra turned into a cheaper Heimer ult, which is a problem; he gets it in addition to his turret identity, while Karma draws all of her identity from it. I can understand why you wanted to go down this way, just judging from the kit she has now, but looking at the Karma community, this is not well received. > Here's another idea to consider, what if she couldn't cast R+E just anytime. What if instead she had to cast it after a target had already been shielded? Well, either this makes Karma dependent on OTHERS shielding her target (which I don't find appealing... again, this doesn't work in solo lanes either) or she needs to press E+R+E or something. Which is clunky. Maybe a more simple solution is to add a travel time to the explosion (think Riven's R) or give it a 0.5s delay. Maybe both. Personally, I hold that spending mantra is already enough room for counterplay. Since it's a rare ressource and spending your shield to deal damage leaves you open to retaliation. And you can bait another mantra. Or you can bait shieldbomb to DENY another mantra. Keep the ideas coming though. I had to make like a dozen of reworks until I got positive feedback, so I feel like having many ideas is more important than having the perfect ones right away.
: Yes! There honestly isn't really anything I could say about Karma that SilverSquid hasn't already said in one of their past posts! As a very generic thing, i would absolutely love it if Karma were more mage and less support. More AP Carry and less Shieldbot. Please please please check out silversquid's idea on karma (iirc its called karma and her twin dragons?) it's basically all I ever wanted on her, especially a revolving passive.
Please don't feel silenced by my ideas. King does a great job at putting my ideas into his words and enhancing them with his own thoughts. He is a strong carry for the Karma community even though he claims he just builds on me. We need people like him, just as we need thinkers like warden and me. Feel free to be any of that. Anyways, thank you for your kind words. Also, the search function sucks, have this: [A Detailed Post on Karma and her Twin Dragons](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/oxNbhh7j-a-detailed-post-on-karma-and-her-twin-dragons)
: Mostly I just mean we should consider adding some sort of defensive effect to it instead of offensive. At least just in case Riot didn't like the direction of having it deal damage, this offers another way to bring the effect back. What I'm proposing is actually a shieldbomb of sorts on the basic ability, rather than making it an RE only effect. Imagine this: > On cast, a shield is applied to an ally. When the shield expires, it detonates. Granting a shield (or healing) to nearby allies, the heal (or shield) scales based on the % of the shield that is missing when it expires. A number of things could be done to differentiate it from current RE. 1. Make it a heal on detonation instead of a shield. 2. Modify how RE works: It could be set up so that casting R+E again after casting E on a target detonates it instantly (spreading the heal / shield, possibly at the cost of less impact if that is needed for balance), and provides some additional effect. 3. Give it a stronger effect than RE if it is used successfully, so that RE is the more immediate and emergency option, but E on delay would be better in it's strongest use case. 4. Make RE apply a more powerful version of my proposed E change, so that it causes the shield to apply to nearby allies as the target takes damage.
> At least just in case Riot didn't like the direction of having it deal damage, this offers another way to bring the effect back. Before I even hear a single viable game design reason for why the damage aspect is bad, I will not consider this. I have read every single Karma related red post and I have been working with the Karma community for 2 years now and not a SINGLE reason has been brought forth. On to your ideas; This must be considered carefully. A straight up buff is out of the question. This means, the movementspeed would have to go. Be prepared to have an idea for that. Additionally, you probably don't want to have a heal/shield in one ability. It makes both low impact and kind of mushy. And I could imagine a lot of reasons why having a shield that spawns shields is another problem. One of them being, that it's worthless in solo lanes. Also I started to dread mantra abilities that simply give you more of the same. There are so many of those "enance basic ability" effects out there, let's have Karma do something better. PS: I am sorry if I am sounding harsh, this is not meant to be against you. I appreciate you throwing new ideas into the bunch, but I have gotten used to giving precise feedback towards Karma ideas and I might not care for my tone too much. Again, please feel appreciated for using your head creatively and positively.
: What if Shieldbomb came back, but on detonation instead of damaging enemies it would grant shields to allies. Interesting things could be done with scaling based on % of shield remaining, and it could open up some interesting game-play decisions for Karma players.
> What if Shieldbomb came back, but on detonation instead of damaging enemies it would grant shields to allies. How is that not just current RE?
: Hey SilverSquid, you might wanna get in on [this](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/2wjE4Iqs-quick-gameplay-thoughts-september-22?comment=000c0002).
Thank you, man. Both for starting this and the invitation :D I hope my words help a bit.
Meddler (NA)
: Yep, likely just a bit of power for now and some mechanics changes next year. I think looking at some of her prior mechanics to see if any of them could be made to work well on her is worth a try. Wouldn't want to make any promises as to what we'd re-add, or even if we'd find we were able to re-add anything, but would definitely look into it. Which particular mechanics would you folks be most interested in seeing us at least experiment with?
**_Thank you for caring, Meddler!_** Well, there is a lot of interesting stuff there * **DUALITY** - Damage spells that can heal an area, or shields that deal damage. I wanna be forced to decide between helping allies and damaging enemies constantly. Or be able to do both in fringe cases. * **ALLY TETHER** - Something that allowed me to CONNECT with my friends and made positioning important. * **BAITING** - Some chances for turnarounds. NO staying at low hp forever and NO tankscalings. * **MANTRA** - Please give us some actual decision making, not one mantra per lane. Also maybe some **KARMIC aspects** would help. It's her name afterall. Making snowballers priority targets, redirecting damage or getting a bonus for protecting weak allies. If something has to give, make it that awful super root. It does not fit her kit, lore or playstyle.
: 1: Too dependent on Q for damage 2: No real thought on which ability to Mantra depending on your role 3: For an enchanter, Karma lacks utility (only gives a shield and movespeed buff, no *reliable* engage, disengage, Hard CC, peel, etc..) 4: her scalings are weird (Q is 75-90% of her damage with only her W providing the rest, missing health heal on someone who shouldn't build THAT defensively) 5: Too numbers reliant (buffs/nerfs to things like CDR, shield values, and damage have made karma go back and forth fom being a generalist who's too strong to a weak champion overall with little to no middle ground)
That's basically an informative version of saying you agree, right?^^
: >Preserving Identity is one of the many things that Riot has learned since then Are you sure of that? Looking at some of the more recent reworks({{champion:3}} {{champion:113}} ), i really have my doubts about that...
Learning _how to do something_ and _never failing at something_ are quite different, in my opinion. Doesn't mean we shouldn't tell them when they fuck up. Quite the contrary, we probably ought to help 'em reflect and grow.
: While I too very much miss the fans, at this point I just hope we get a new champion that uses them. You are right that they could at least fix her emote animations. I personally do not think the shield bomb was ever a good idea for her however.
> I personally do not think the shield bomb was ever a good idea for her however. Why?
: That doesn't sound like it'd make it particularly worth is to use it on allies though. Temporary tenacity needs to last a very long time to feel worth is unless it comes with other cool stuff.
Agreed. A straight up cleanse would make more sense, to be honest.
Broporo (NA)
: Ayyyyy I love reading our players ideas! You guys are just as important as anyone else in my eyes. I wasn't the one who locked the other thread, but they did mention this is somewhat normal for older threads. EDIT: Seriously though, those ideas were hella cool xD
Thanks man, you are being a real bro ###### kill me > EDIT: Seriously though, those ideas were hella cool xD You are too kind! But I am yet a colorful mouthpiece for ideas and thoughts that are already out there. I just... combine them as well as I can! If by any chance you know any good people that might want to read this stuff before heading towards that Karma update brooding room, you might want to give 'em a hint, right :) ? Otherwise I would like to repeat my offer, if the community or I can be of any service to make this update for Karma go well, please let me know. I am willing to do an unreasonable amount of stuff for that champion! Also I would hate for the Karma community to split yet again.
: I kind of want Karma's gameplay to encourage using ALL of her mantra's. Not just one for a specific role like we have now. I think storing multiple mantra's like she did before, but with internal cds for each, would make Karma more fun to play. But yeah shield-bomb, ground-targeted RQ and more duality in her mantra'd abilities would be nice. Actually I'd like for her normal E to have damage and her mantra RE to do something unique altogether, since shield damage is something already shared with Ivern. Maybe lose the mobility attached to it to not make it over-packed.
> I kind of want Karma's gameplay to encourage using ALL of her mantra's. Not just one for a specific role like we have now. Amen! > Actually I'd like for her normal E to have damage and her mantra RE to do something unique altogether, since shield damage is something already shared with Ivern. Maybe lose the mobility attached to it to not make it over-packed. In nearly every rework suggestion I ever did, her RW and RE tend to get overloaded quickly. However, group mobility has been in her kit for so long, I can't really support it. Group shielding seems stupid and not fitting though...
Raoul (EUW)
: I guess I was one of the few who really loved Karma... I wouldnt say i mained the old Karma, but I played her alot. Mostly she was my go to Top Champion. And I did pretty good with her, she was very fun to play and she felt very unique. I never touched her after I played a few games with reworked Karma. There is just nothing of the Old Karma left in the Champion we have today.
Karma will get a gameplay update roughly at the start of next year. Is there something you personally wish to happen? I try to get as many opinions as possible until then! Old Karma fans, New Karma fans, never Karma fans,...
: I think at the moment the only things I miss about old Karma are her skill-shot heal and tether having both ally and enemy functions. New Karma, while many arguments have been made regarding her, actually has a theme that's not as prominent as it should be and that is where I'm hoping Riot will work on. Karma currently can enable her team to catch up to targets ("Karma always catches up to you) or attempt a disengage for her team if they're caught out of position. The problem is that her kit lacks the proper tools for her to be effective in that role they've tried to have her perform in the game. She can do so currently, but pales in comparison to other supports/enchanters/mage-supports whose kits are more well defined to cater to a certain role. I would like to challenge Riot to actually come up with a unique crowd control/utility effect exclusive to her alone to make her stand out from the rest of her colleagues. No gimmicks (like Skarner's zones) but something more like Cass's grounded effect that would differentiate Karma from the rest when they actually look into her.
Well spoken, my friend. However, I advocate for making Karma a battlemage/enchanter. This role is not taken in the entirety of league yet and fits her quite well. I also would love her to be a damage/health manipulating mage, that enhances the damage of allies and redirects damage (a karmic concept). I would even go as far as to leave Karma without (hard) CC. Having CC on every character just makes them more of the same, and I like champions with well defined weaknesses. Need CC&damage in bot -> take brand Need CC&protection in bot -> get janna Need damage&protection in bot -> get karma Some unique stuff on her wouldn't hurt either, tbh.
Naqel (EUW)
: It's difficult to agree with a successful rework requiring the original identity be preserved, when {{champion:48}} rework altered literally just that(he got buffs, but his abilities remained largely the same). While I'd agree that something like {{champion:6}} is a failure in delivering both on the gameplay and the themes of the original (where's my Q spam and a pile of tortured flesh?), it's still technically a successful rework (as someone who enjoyed OG Urgot, now I know how OG Trundle fans felt). It can be hence said that the reasoning behind the premise of the thread is completely false, and Karma simply got the short end of the stick. It is also worth noting that Karma was for a time very dominant, and it was only the follow-up changes to alleviate that the put her in her current , uninteresting, position.
Trundle's rework respected his gameplay a lot and just gave him a new dress. That fitted Runeterra better. Again, one has to ask HOW MUCH a rework changes. Too little won't do the trick, too much and you alienate the fans. Also I see a clear difference between building upon a character and strictly replacing stuff. The latter needs to be done _sometimes_ but carefully. And I don't think they did it carefully for Karma. I reckon they learned to do this by observing the community's reactions. Poppy and Sion are already fringe cases, imo, but Karma got changed even more. And compared to them, she didn't get replaced with a straight up better and healthier version, Old Karma had a lot of unique concepts. New Karma had none. Even her lore got less interesting. So, no matter how healthy she got, in comparison, there is just too much to miss. And this is, imo, a bad rework. Her unique concepts (tehter, shieldbomb, duality) and visuals (fanweapons) were not preserved. Her playstyle got changed and nothing unique (like with Sion's/Poppy's new ult) were introduced. New Karma is not fun to play, play against or watch. > It is also worth noting that Karma was for a time very dominant, and it was only the follow-up changes to alleviate that the put her in her current , uninteresting, position. If you are talking about her shieldbotting time in LCS, yes, I remember. We even warned Riot before the changes went life, that this would happen. We even knew the shield nerfs would come and welcomed them. I think she got "uninteresting" with 5.10 though, when they removed her most iconic spell. Didn't stop me from playing her though.
: I cannot believe we're still talking about this. I've been playing for 4 seasons now and this rework happened before I started and people are **still** complaining about it. She's now spent over twice as long in this iteration as she did in the previous one. How much time needs to pass before this becomes the real Karma?
As King said, that's my point. A botched rework will hit a fanbase so hard, that they will never forget. Especially if you make the new version too different, so people don't recognize it as one champion, but rather a new one with the same name. This is something that needs to be minded and avoided with the upcoming update! PS: I do not consider any of the Karma's the _real_ Karma btw. I like them both, for different reasons and I see potential in both for a champion, that is even greater than both ever were.
: I have no idea. I just find it strange that they locked that thread and none of your other old threads.
I got a [reply ](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/help-support/srWR6Yp7-why-did-my-thread-get-locked)from a _red one_. It is quite positive, without enlightening me too much though.
Seer Lu (EUW)
: > I thought it was generally agreed upon the 3.5 changes were her "rework" and 5.10 was an "update". However, Warden Karma pointed out that some people think of her 3.5 changes as a "relaunch". I am sorry for the missconception, I will try to adapt my post to make this clearer. I see and thank you for the clarification but I have the fear I will probably forget that in the future :D so I will try my best to keep that in mind > In fact, I was talking about her 3.5 changes. I consider it a failure on all 3 points I listed. Well I do agree that her 3.5 changes left a room for more to be desired but I don't think that it was such a huge failure. It looked more like that some of her elements got their places changed and particularly her tether...the slow on her new Q, the speed up on her new E and RE, the heal from RQ into RW. I think that the failure was more in the visual aspect of her rework. > What I do not get about your critisism is, however, why you think the name "Karma" fits her current self better? I do not find any karmic aspect to her current kit, while there arguably were some in her old one. I criticised her visual aspect that the dress wouldn't make me feel like that she is Karma and that's all. I will not argue by any means if her current model does because I believe there isn't really a proper way to visualise Karma(as a tradition) like yin yang. I am just happy that Riot decided to go their own way of doing that with all the inconsistencies that her new model have...like the badge(or whatever that lenghty thing is)on her chest, the sock on her one leg and the tattoo on the other and even the hair hanging on one side. About her kit I don't know what to think. But I may also argue that the old kit of her's didn't look that karmatic to me(even if it looks and interesting and I really like it). For me, or at least how I understand it, karma is something that rewards you based on what you did. If you did something good you will be rewarded with something good in your live and vise versa. In other words do x and be rewarded with x, do y and be rewarded with y. Her old kit was: my ability can do x but now I mantraed it and it does y. It looked more like the yin yang conception where behind all bad actions lie something tranquil and the opposite. Does her current kit have a karmatic feeling? If it did I wouldn't be agreeing that she needs a rework. I am not trying to say I hate the yin yang concept or her old kit but only that I wish that she didn't looked like something that is already defined but not karma(as tradition). Maybe I am wrong and maybe I don't know what I am talking about? But I guess this is why I am here to have a conversation and write down my thoughts. What is your opinion on this though? Why do you think her old kit(and probably the visuals and model as well?) looked and screamed karma? I am also curious to find out what other karma mains and players think of this matter. Of course there always comes the personal preference and liking. Why do I have no problem if she looks and sounds more like an african/black woman(for me at least) rather than an indian? Meanwhile I have problems with the dress? Probably because as I already stated that karma, as tradition, does not have a clear visual representation and nowhere states that you have to be an indian to resemble that tradition. But the black and white dress already does resemble a different yet somehow so similar tradition...the yin yang. > I don't think any rework can every satisfy EVERYONE. But it should thrive to please as many as POSSIBLE, including old and new fans. You cited the twin dragons idea and I think with my TWIN DRAGONS REWORK I showed a way that Karma could be made pleasant to both old and new fans of hers. And I think if a random dude on the internet can do it, a proper game designer at Riot could do it way better. I absolutely agree with this and tbh I was really happy when you made this concept with the twin dragons because it showed that I wasn't alone in supporting it.
> It looked more like that some of her elements got their places changed and particularly her tether That's true and from a superficial standpoint it seems like a lot of her old self was retained... when in actuality it wasn't. Q became a simple skillshot, instead of a play around damage&healing. W is still a tether, but instead of something that connects you with your allies or rewards creativity, it's the most basic of spells. Old W had a dozen of uses, new W has only one. The flavour and use of all abilities changed, even though, as you correctly state, the stats were just shuffled around a bit. Which is very confusing, because on one hand, she is very similar, on the other, she is so very different. The problem is, not many people knew her other than superficially.... > Her old kit was: my ability can do x but now I mantraed it and it does y Actually, her mantrad ability would do xy. Which was kind of the trick. Just so we are on the same page, this is how I see it: Karma traditionally is a cosmic reward/punish system. Put shortly; doing good rewards you, doing bad punishes you. You can collect "bad karma", which makes it more likely that bad stuff will happen to you. Enduring bad stuff would in turn cleanse you of some bad karma. This is reflected in Karma's old passive. She gained free AP based on her missing hp. So it was karmic for both her and her enemies; she gained strength for enduring bad stuff, enemies increased the likeliness of getting punished by hurting her. Her RE, the shieldbomb was a similar concept. There was no _mechanical_ dodging it, but it was a ressource, that Karma had to manage. If you stayed at a distance she could only shove in a sneaky shieldbomb to poke you every now and then, but then she lost the shield for herself (making it more likely that bad happened to her). However, if you approached HER, you allowed her to use the shieldbomb on herself while hurting you, gaining full effect of the spell. She was also the worst target to towerdive. Meaning she would punish you for going for somebody at their weakest. Even her heal would be weak, generally, but if you allowed her to use RQ on both you and your prey, you got punished. Her missing%hp heal also represented strength in dire times and rewarding the people enduring bad stuff more. Outplaying Karma wasn't as mechanical as you can usually expect form midlane, but more on a trade and timing level, that you see in toplaners. I hope this makes it more clear how the concept of Karma was worked into her old kit. Not perfectly, to be honest, but rather genius, considering she was created in a world without Maokai. > But the black and white dress already does resemble a different yet somehow so similar tradition...the yin yang. In the update notes back then Riot pointed out, that they didn't want too many "real life symbols" in League, so they made their "own" versions of it. So the Yin-Yang turned into the twindragon crest and the black-white turned into turquoise-purple. This should reflect similar concepts, but not pull you out of their fantasy world. Karma had aspects of Buddha all over her design. I respect their attempt of making something their own, but I just can't silence all the dismay that people felt, when she lost so much visual identity. Might be a reason for your emotional state too, I dunno.
Broporo (NA)
: Soooooo first of all, that was quite the read. I honestly really enjoyed reading over all the thought and work you put into that post!!!! I talked to some of the mods, and sometimes these posts will have the commenting locked if the conversation derails, stops being directed towards the poster, or simply gets too old. I'm guessing this one was locked just because it was fairly old and the mod may not have seen the older posts yet.
A Rioter that reads _my_ threads? What is this magical place? I feel very humbled. That must have taken at least half an hour of your time. Thank you very much! I guess that thread has been fairly active for a long time, since people came back to it every now and then. Looking at it like this, I don't think it makes sense to lock it, to be honest, but this is _your_ decision, not mine. If there is ever something I can do for Karma or you guys in the coming update, I would gladly offer my services.
: Yeah, as is idk how her q can help allies. It needs changes if it's to do something like that. I'd say if we could make rw on allies heal them instead of yourself, you could make rq buff allies damage. That'd be cool.
Anything that makes Karma have more depth and decision making is welcome! In my reworks I usually make RQ the damage/heal and W something unique, like redirecting damage or buff sharing.
: If they want to see how passionate Karma players were, they simply need to read through the 1k+ paged archived thread when Karma was relaunched Sauce - http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3286685&page=1 The issue with Karma is that she simply lack a focused kit (utility thrown into every ability) or a real identity (unlike her previous battlemage one). They should modernize that battlemage version (like Galio/WW/Urgot) instead of trying to please both the old/new Karma players, as it's not going to work due to her Q. Either she's going to be a long ranged poke/support-type or a battle mage/support-type. There really is no in-between.
Excellent points. Thank you for sharing! Personally, I believe that making Karma's RQ a ground-target ability (think Vel'Koz E) will retain her current feel, while making her more battlemage-y. Because it works better in close quarters and less as a poke tool. Quite frankly, Karma is too stretched out in terms of mechanics and identity to NOT have something cut from her. Similarly, some things of her Old self (most prominently her fanweapons, a shield that does NOTHING or a simple cone) are also never going to return to her. In fact, I try to focus on what Old and New Karma have in common and make it a goal. To highlight that and make it work. But yeah, Riot is probably going to have to do an impossible update again. That's why I'd love to get the community together and agree beforehand, to make it a little easier for them.
  Rioter Comments
Seer Lu (EUW)
: Whether Karma's rework was horrible or not depends on which rework you base your topic on. If we talk about the 3.5 one I have to disagree as it may have not been a perfect or may I even say good but at least it wasn't "horrible". The 5.10 rework however is something that I do consider horrible and agree with you Silver. What do I like from the kit that Karma currently has: * RW heal and the basic E shield that provides damage mitigation/sustain and mobility * the theme of dual dragons * one mantra charge but impactful effects What did I **find**(as I never had the opportunity to play classic iteration) interesting from the old kit that Karma had: * shield bomb * interactions with champions who pass trough the tether I personally have no problems if Karma receives new kit and mechanics and I have no problems if she goes back to her roots. There is but only 1 thing I will never accept and that is the ugly old dress that didn't, doesn't and will not scream Karma. If I never played LoL and saw that dress I would think of yin yang and never in my head would it even occur that the champion is even called or has anything related with Karma. Why even call her Karma if she wears that black and white dress? Unless we wish Karma to be yet again the very first prototype for a champion name change. Yinyang for a starter would be good. Fans are ok and I have nothing against them to return but I am more a fan of the twin dragons as weapons. If Riot however manage to incorporate both, where basic abilities use her fans meanwhile her mantraed abilities use the spiritual power of the twin dragons, I think it would be amazing. I don't wish to be selfish and I do want to see my fellow brethren who have the same passion for champion as me to get happy and justice but I think that achieving a perfect rework where all fans are satisfied is quite impossible, especially taking into account of how much and what Karma went trough. At the end it will come down on how much are we willing to accept these unsatisfying aspects and how fast are we going to grow on them.
I thought it was generally agreed upon the 3.5 changes were her "rework" and 5.10 was an "update". However, Warden Karma pointed out that some people think of her 3.5 changes as a "relaunch". I am sorry for the missconception, I will try to adapt my post to make this clearer. In fact, I was talking about her 3.5 changes. I consider it a failure on all 3 points I listed. 5.10 was gross on its own account, but **ricklessabandon** seemed to be influenced by the playstyle change introduced in 3.5. I am not here to argue about visual identity. I am just not good enough with it, and it seems very subjective to me. I found her old dress fine, some loved it, some hated it. I can't quite find the pattern. What I do not get about your critisism is, however, why you think the name "Karma" fits her current self better? I do not find any karmic aspect to her current kit, while there arguably were some in her old one. > I think that achieving a perfect rework where all fans are satisfied is quite impossible, especially taking into account trough how much and what Karma went trough. I don't think any rework can every satisfy EVERYONE. But it should thrive to please as many as POSSIBLE, including old and new fans. You cited the twin dragons idea and I think with my [TWIN DRAGONS REWORK](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/oxNbhh7j-a-detailed-post-on-karma-and-her-twin-dragons) I showed a way that Karma could be made pleasant to both old and new fans of hers. And I think if a random dude on the internet can do it, a proper game designer at Riot could do it way better.
: You know... I genuinely want to know the reason why his thread was locked. I can't think of a single logical reason why that thread was locked and not older threads. It's just odd that such a positive, constructive and well-received thread was locked.
That is weird. In over two years of posting, this is literally the only thread I could find, that is locked. Chronologically, it's pretty much in the middle. Why do they lock threads anyways?
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SilverSquid

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