> There's a point after which you're just overloading everything onto one ability and it makes the ability needlessly verbose, complex, and hard to balance. Fun fact: The more parts an ability has, the _easier_ it is to balance. More cranks and nudges, you know? Besides, I am in favour of keeping everything as simple as possible and let me tell you, reworking W is a nightmare, usually, because of its complex nature. But lets suppose there is a version of W that is slightly more complex but objectively better, would you really still be opposed to it? Put differently to ask again: Is the length of the description really the most defining factor for you? Because you said repeatedly you are not a game designer... which explains probably why you have those unrealistic expectations that everything needs to be slick first and foremost. I think you confuse _"as possible"_ with _"at all cost"_. > I like being able to choose 'do I get more shields on more people', 'do I need to survive myself', or 'do I want to pump out extra damage' and have the mantra effects for each be clear, defined, and fall within the sense of 'balance' that fits for her. See look, if we just rephrase that a bit _"do I need extra protection, do I need extra damage or do I need extra utility"_ then all Karma versions so far did have that. And I would argue that's EXACTLY what the fun is about her and must be retained. Actually, now that I mention it, the worst Karma at those decisions is actually current Karma; because of her bad scalings the longer a game goes, the less of a decision she has. We need Karma to not longer have that decision made by the equipment she has, but by the player and situation instead. If you are for anything at all, at least you should support that cause; make her mantras viable at all stages of the game. > I like the fact that her abilities, currently, are all elegant, with defined use cases that make sense. I enjoy the cohesive and coherent design of her kit where it, at least to me, makes perfect sense how it is. See and here is the harsh truth: **Riot** disagrees with you. They know her kit lacks a lot and they know they want to and need to rework her. It already nearly happened a few months ago and the only reason why it wasn't shipped is because it wasn't good enough. Didn't change enough. The best you get a Rioter to say is _"she is fine, but lacks X"_, x being either cohesion, flavour, skill expression or uniqueness. Some even say "a niche". That's not the only reason I am working with the community, but another good one; I want the Karma community to come together before another NeuroCat debacle happens; when the community struggles to give clear instructions what they all like together and want to be retained - so the Rioter just goes off and does their own thing. We need a common vision that pleases as many as possible. If you just say, _"nothing will ever please me"_, then this Karma will be the last one you will ever like and we don't even need to consider you. There is no point... Thus, I summon you once again to join the conversation instead of excluding yourself. Change will come. The only chance you have at retaining as much as possible is joining forces and making yourself heard. Work with us. > Which means the path of least resistance would be refining who Karma is now, and designing a new champion to fit the needs of the other people. Good point. We could create a really coherent shieldmaster champion and make Karma the champion of duality again. So you can have a new champion you like (even more?) and the duality fans can have a better Karma than ever! But I have the suspicion, that even though you propose that, you wouldn't even like that...

_Theead #3_ Sure, because every analogy breaks down somewhere. But a burger with/without cheese makes already way more sense than your original analogy. Because it's no binary bs, but rather about dozens of ingredients to one thing. But still, it's not about literally not being able to digest it. But about what you want. And since we are a couple hundred thousand people getting the same meal we need to have a conversation about it. It doesn't help if you sit grumpily in your part of the restaurant and say nay to all that others have issues with. You are not alone. You are not the only one. You need to share this champ with others. Please act like it. And if some people propose some salad to the side to make the whole ordeal healthier and you proclaim, that you don't like salad and that getting two plates fills up your table and that's too complicated for you then... you are doing nothing for the conversation. Acknowledge others. Talk to them. Be reasonable. Or leave. Because seriously, that's your issue? That W could have one more line to it? That's what bothers you about that suggestion? No consideration for playstyle, coherence, balance, niches, nothing? Lines of text are your main criteria? Also you seem to have missed 99% of my twin dragon post if you only see a tether or a shieldbomb (there is no tether there btw, lol). Which is - curiously - the signature spell she had for most of her existence. And if you only start liking a champ after they lose what made them... I seriously wonder what you like. Or whether you should be able to mindlessly claim this champ yours.

Your analogy fails because you think binarily. For you it's either fish or steak, in order to pretend everyone needs the _my way or the highway_ approach. In reality there's way more grey areas. A kit has thousands of nuances, that can appeal. That's why I used a menu instead, with dozens of meals, to show why your no-budge policy is so unnecessarily stubborn. Work with us and we work with you. It doesn't have to end that way.

> his poke is way higher than you're giving credit for And way lower than you pretend it is. It's infrequent, short ranged and decent, but easily punishable. Nothing you could compare to vel, brand or lux. Which you did. > Looking at your links, you're basically making her Old Karma again If that's the only thing you are taking from it, then I am both convinced that 1) You have no idea what Old Karma was about 2) You have no idea what the suggestions are about. 3) You probably didn't even read half of it. > Here let me paint a scenario: Your favourite food is salmon, but you see someone eating a steak. Let me paint the scenario how it actually is: There was only one salmon restaurant in the city and it replaced every salmon with steak and I am campaigning for getting back salmon onto the menu. You are a regular at the restaurant ever since they changed to steak, and say, well YOU like the steak and WE should go with the times, and getting back salmon as a choice would be _ridiculous_ because it would cost the restaurant so much they wouldn't have the time to make your precious steak _exactly_ the way you want it. And no matter how little salmon on the menu I propose, you scream that I just want the old restaurant back, and I wouldn't care enough for your steak desires and want you to suffer. When in actuality I am trying to bring steak and salmon to the menu to have you sitting at the table with us. > That's what's happening here. You're just not understanding that what I want is what we have. I do. Have, ever since your first post. But you are _destructive_ about it. You don't want to listen, you don't want to contribute, you won't even tell us what you like and how we could consider you. I mind you, I gave you that chance repeatedly, because it's valuable to me. But you dodged it. Which is why I am getting frustrated with you. You come in here, ask for respect while disrespecting everyone else. You want others to care for you but don't care for others. You are selfish and arrogant. You want it your way and won't budge an inch, no matter how others feel. And if that counts as "insult" and "tiring" to you, I am sorry, but the truth can feel insulting. Better come to terms with it. Good day.

> She was confused. Her kit had half one thing and half the other and the only way to make her work AT ALL was to play her as a battlemage even though literally half of her wasn't really designed for that. I sometimes wonder what you are talking about. Karma was shortranged. She had sticking power and survivability. Like _any other battlemage_ she could be kited, had nice dps and was deceptively tanky. Her stats wanted her to be low and her skills allowed her to bounce back to abuse her passive. All her mantra spells worked into that idea... The only difference to the other battlemages was, that she was a battlemage/enchanter. Which worked, because she could use her defenses on either herself or others. You also keep talking about her stats... would you kindly provide me with the stats differences between her, vlad and ryze back in the days? > Maybe it would've been better for them to, when they redesigned her, go full battlemage and replace her q, up her base stats, and adjust her attack a bit... but they didn't. Which is a mistake I have been critisizing ever since. They didn't build upon what she was, they replaced underdeveloped abilities with similar looking things that diverted into completely different directions. Adding artillery range to a battlemage. CC to a champion whose most obvious weakness was her lack of it. Group protection on a champ whose point was to decide between herself and others. It muddied her. First their excuse was, that we should wait and see, Riot knows what they are doing. Then their excuse was, that we should just adjust and learn the new champ fully. Then they said, she is fine, some people like her and it's not a big deal. They also said, we just had a rework and should wait for others to get their time. And then they said, but there is so many more people liking her now, they matter more. Excuses. Not reasons. > 'this would make a great support champ if we tuned the shield more around that and adjusted her w to be a more backline spell'. W is _not_ a backline spell. It requires you to be in close range to enemies for over 2s. Quite frankly; Old Karma's W was way more of a backline spell, because it could buff your allies without directly being involved. > are you really that cruel that you want others to suffer how you have? Excuse my french, but are you dense? How often did I write that I want to please all sides? Unify the community? Compared to you who doesn't give a shit about any Karma fan who doesn't like what you like? I have been working on this for years, trying to find common grounds, while you trumpet in here acting superior while dismissing everyone else. Maybe you should think about it yourself. Because no description of Karma you have given me so far shows that you like her for anything that other champions don't have. So maybe it's _you_ who could just as well play other champions and let Karma become who she was supposed to be? And no description you have given me of her indicates you should be against what I am proposing. You are against my propositions because _"change bad"_ or _"old Karma bad"_ or Aatrox knows why. > If we go to a 'middle ground' we end up with a confused champ with a kit that doesn't fit into any role well and nobody is happy. Its not a real solution. Yeah, because she can't work as a support and battlemage at the same time. Ever. How silly of me. It's not like she did that succesfully for 2 years without anyone complaining. Nuh-uh. My [Quick Fix](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/RHn0ZE62-quick-fix-for-karma) pleased people who like her as mage and support. My [Twin Dragon Rework](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/oxNbhh7j-a-detailed-post-on-karma-and-her-twin-dragons) pleased both old and new Karma players. You lack imagination. > [Thresh] does as much damage early game as a poke champ No he doesn't. His damage is really low, even for a support. He is bottom quarter at best. > he is durable(for a support) Not compared to other tanky/initiating supports? Which is the point? He is worse at this than alternatives. > Every champ needs SOME weaknesses. Thresh is great at picking/saving, good at initiation, mediocre at damage/tanking and awful for sustain. There you go. Weaknesses.

> I have not enjoyed Karma at any time when she had shieldbomb. And i did not enjoy her after they removed it. But it's still weird, you are claiming a champion yours which playstyle you didn't like for most of her existence. > Her range and attack felt like a mage, her stats were similar to a mage, her q was a mage, but her w and e were built for an ap bruiser. Do you know what a **battlemage** is? Do you also get confused by ryze, vlad, liss and rumble? > I fully acknowledge that it was wrong to change her role before. However, at this point, changing it again would do more harm than good. That sounds like the old _"I disliked her before and nobody who liked her matters so leave it be exactly how I want it. Screw everyone else"_ approach... Besides, how do you know? According to _you_ changing her the first time was positive. Or you know, don't you think a middleground would be fair? Some progress? No? > Thresh would be well designed if he had... a weakness. Since he doesn't, he'll ALWAYS be useful. The question now is, is it wrong to have generalist champions, that are always useful? Especially, if they also require skill and are entertaining to watch/play/play against? Additionally; if a champion fails in one category, does it main they fail completely? > Zed is an elegantly designed champ. His abilities are fairly simple, but they allow for a lot of skill expression. See, and now we are entering really weird zones. Because firstly, if you literally mean _"elegant"_ that is rather subjective. And secondly, Old Karma was then, by your standards, really elegant too. She had really simple spells, most with one effect only. And secondary effects enabled with mantra, quite similar to the secondary effects Zed has to offer. It was a simple, but broad toolkit, that allowed her to fine tune her offense and defense for a variety of situations. That was pretty elegant, right? At this point I am starting to be convinced you just never got what her old kit was about. A shame. And regarding Zyra/Janna: It feels like you are just asking for stuff and that's it. Not much essence there.

> After she lost the confused abilities and her abilities because more logically designed and not incongruous with the role her stats made her most likely to fill Did you fall in love with her when she still had the shieldbomb 3.5-5.10 or didn't you play her for 3 seasons? Also, do you really define a champion's role based on the... stats they have? Would you not rather go by their kit and how they are used? You seem like a strong proponent of keeping a champion as much as possible and not changing for the sake of change, so why would you be in favour of changing the role of a champion (which happened in the 3.5 relaunch; it turned her from a battlemage to support mage). > I also don't want her abilities to go the way of Yasuo or Thresh and have twelve different effects each that are all amplified by Mantra. You do not think Thresh is well designed? > Elegant design is a GOOD thing. Sure, but it's not the _only_ thing you ought to consider, right? In principle there is nothing wrong with having rather simple characters (Annie, Garen, etc) and more complicated ones (Zed, Nidalee). It makes for a great game if you have options for different kinds of people, doesn't it? Don't get me wrong, I too would love to have the most simple but efficient design for her, but her concept is rather complex and thus really hard to nail down into a simple kit. > To be clear, I am not 'afraid of change', Well, would you then, kindly, tell me the reason for why you are not in favour of * granting her W an option to be used defensively * granting her scalings for all mantras, to make equally valid no matter what lane/build * making her threat ranges more coherent > Then there are champions who I like who I can clearly see AREN'T filling their fantasy, like Janna, Zyra, etc That's curious. What would you like Janna to do, exactly? Or what are you missing? And for Zyra: Would you be in favour of making her kit more complicated if it helped her fulfill her fantasy?

_Thread limit reached_ Did you... even play her before? Before her relaunch in 3.5? Before the removal of shieldbomb in 5.10? Did you not like that out of experience, or does it just _sound_ not as good to you? You seem to dislike change. I get that, because that's exactly what all the old Kamra fans wanted. It's weird; You are fighting for the same champion for the same reason as they are. I acknowledge that you people exist. However, you people will exists **no matter** what Karma is and how well she is actually doing. I want Karma to move on. I want her to live her potentail, based on game design arguments, giver her a coherent kit, a game niche, an identity,... and I want her community to come to peace with one another. This means that everyone has to give at least a bit. As little as possible, but as much as necessary. And no matter what Riot does with her, what I come up with; eventually there will be people again, the same as you, who will again: Like her for no reason they can name and would never want her to change. So tell me, why would I listen to you, rather than the people in the past or in the future, who have the same reasons? > I like the aoe shield, I like the way q and w work. See, this is the trick, most people like the aoe shield, current base Q and at least parts of W. The problem with the AoE shield is, it takes up way too much of her power budget and W is clunky AF (it tends to break before forming - but goes on CD anyways, it's too binary to be balanced properly, it's a dead end in a lot of design perspectives and it does nothing to convey anything about her character) I like Q. I try to keep the aoe shield, because it was on the Karma I liked the most, and I acknowledge how many like it and see it as a core of her identity. The W however... needs at least some change. It confuses me that you say you wanna spend ALL you have on protecting your carry, but then aren't in favour of giving W a protecting function. It makes no sense to me. It's even IN ADDITION to what it does now. It's EXACTLY what you should want. More options to protect your carry, keep everything else the same. If you were reasonable, you would at least support that part... > I like Karma how she is now. Which is why the discussion stops there. If you wanna remove yourself from the discussion, so be it. But remember: A _"I don't want change, respect me"_ gets infinitely less done, than those, who are trying to find how Karma can move on and please as many as possible. Also, don't expect us to care about you, when you don't help out, complain, blame us for being selfish, but only ever think about _your own needs_ in regards to Karma.

Ye, but... this doesn't mean you have to dive past 'em. You could've tethered a minion or ward behind them. Maybe even an ally who did the diving for you. Same with the shieldbomb. It didn't have to be you and you didn't have to be BEHIND enemies. Quite the contrary, knowing the edge of your Q and RE was quite an important skill on Karma, so you could tag enemies at max range. But that's all besides the point, I am not really in favour of getting back the old tether. Sure, it was more fulfilling than the current one, but it had it's own share of issues. Maybe you have noticed, I am not in favour of going back. I am in favour of learning from what people liked about her old, semi old and new kit and then take the best of all worlds. We should take what worked from the old kit to help out where the new one falls flat, NOT infringe on what the new one does right by importing what sucked about the old one. That's what feels to me is your fear and I share it, trust me. That's why hearing so many opinions is so important to me, it broadens my horizon. It helps me see further and live through things I never did myself.... even though I played my fair share of all different Karmas (started playing in S2). But one person can never live through it all...

> As to your first part, no I have justification - but that justification is very much subjective and opinion. To mind your opinion in any of my suggestion I need to know it. Just saying you have a different one, complaining we are not respecting it, but then not telling you exactly what you want... just isn't productive. Besides: All opinions have a reason. Or multiple reasons. It's important to know them. Sure, you can say _"hey, I like this and you don't, now what?"_ This is where you kinda stop the discussion, but for me, that's where the whole things starts! Why do you like it differently and how would it be perfect for you? What would and wouldn't you mind? What could be done to achieve both or why not. That's why I'm here! I wanna know. So please don't leave me hanging all the time. You demand something, then also give me something to work with. > I like having the option rather than being helpless to do anything except 5% of the diving Zed's hp before he blinks back out leaving my carry to die Yes. Exactly! Having options, That's what I WANT YOU to have. I want you to have the option of spending all your spells on protecting someone, if need be. That's why I expected you to be in favour of a tether that grants allied targets extra armor or sth. > so I'd rather have the ability to trade mantra for more shield than for a shieldbomb that's just going to tickle the zed as he goes off to regen safe and sound. You could also view it the other way and say, well, my extra shield wouldn't have save my carry anyways, so I'd rather have dealt some damage, so he has to retreat instead of continuing the killing spree. My point is, that I want you to spot those moments and decide for yourself, when pouring all you have in defense, when you can risk some offense and when you can put all your eggs in the exploding basket of Zed destruction. I don't want to be pushed into one direction, because the game passed the 15min mark. I want Karma to feel like that all the time. As someone who likes her early game, where this characteristic is at its strongest, you would like all of that. Why not? Please tell me!

And except Lissandra with her ult. Or except Swain with his ult. Or except Rumble/Ryze or any battlemage/bruiser who knows they can kill their target. And who the f even says she had to dive past anyone to use any of her abilities?

> _my reasons are just as much based in opinion as yours_ My reasons are based on the opinion of everyone I have talked to in the last 4-5 years, everything I have learned about game design in the last 12 years and a good deal more on facts than you seem to notice. If you weigh this against your _"I feel different but I can't say why"_ but think you can walz in here and tell us we were disregarding your opinion when you can't even base it on anything when I ask to know more... while disregarding every argument I bring forth as justification for my opinions,... then you, good Sir, must deal with me thinking of you as a hypocrite. I have given you plenty objective reasoning. Read it again if you must. I have created a rework suggestion which fulfills every criteria you have listed so far, but you have seemingly chosen to ignore it. Not told me what's wrong with it. Probably not even looked at it. Why, by the holyness of Goodking Garen, should I then _not_ disregard your opinions? Give me something to work with. I am ready to work hard for Karma and have proven to do so and I will do my darnest to please as many as I can, as long as they give me more than _"I don't like it, don't know why, yours are just opinions too, lalala"_. Because that's nothing but semi-polite destructiveness. > _if an assassin dives, i will mantra shield their target No, I get it, RE shields the main target for slightly more. I know. But what you don't seem to get is that this is rather dissatisfying to waste your trademark mantra for a slight shield increase. Do you seriously want _that_ to be her best option, that Lady Karma, mistress of defiance, protector of balance uses her most powerful spell in the most dire of situations to waste most of it's potential for slightly more shield? Instead of, I don't know, tether to protect the target with extra resistances, shield em and then retaliate towards the squishy aggressor? Like, you know, what _karma_ represents? Or at least to have this option at all game stages? At least have it compete with the _"something happens, guess I will shield"_ approach. Because fuck me if someone seriously enjoys her options during laning phase but then fights for her being a shieldbot late. At least fight for a coherent kit that does either all the time, that I would respect. But even a pure shieldbot could be done way better than where Karma is right now. Give me some ways to gut her damage potential early game and let's come up with an enjoyable backliner that only shields, that's also healthy for the game, and we can talk.

Dude.... First you say we should value your opinions as well. Then you discard my arguments because they supposedly are opinions. And then you ignore all the questions I had to find out more about your opinion. Do you even know what you want? > In order for them to add a nuke to the shield, they'd have to nerf the shield. Not the base shield, no. Wait, do you seriosly use your AoE shield to protect a single target? Is that what you want her options to be? Not a karmic champion with a chance to protect and retaliate, but rather a champ that has shields, more shields and spells that - if used right - grant the more shields more often? Because that sounds really bland to me. And when I say _"bland"_, that's not just my opinion, but me quoting Meddler on her kit.

Low mobility, high base damage, great CC... Brand and Zyra don't need gold and they put so much pressure in bot. I don't know if I like what they did with Zyra's rework, but she kind of never worked that well in midlane anyways. Too risky. Just let her fuck up the enemy ADC, easy, more reliable and it's like having 2 APCs in your team sometimes. If Zyra scaled better with items or had worse bases, she probably would go back to midlane. But that's quite hard to do with the kit she has. I suppose that's why Riot embraced her as a "support".

> or you're wasting the bomb on a ranged character who can take advantage of the shield but not the bomb. You could just use regular E, if you don't want to use the bomb, right? > It creates a situation where making the most of the ability either requires your ally to be an idiot(an adc/mage diving into enemy backlines), or enemies being idiots(focusing the tank). Or you shieldbomb your carry that just got jumped by an assassin? Or shieldbomb on your diver? > A self-shieldbomb on a diver, a tank, or maybe an assassin... these are all reasonable. But on a mage? It doesn't need to be a self-shieldbomb only. But hey, there's Ivern, right? He is neither diver, tank or assassin. To be honest, Karma used to be far more of a frontline mage/bruiser than he is now. > the reason the nuke + shield works for Neeko is that its her ult, so it can have enough range, damage, and shielding to be relevant And it's been on Karma's _semi_ ult in a clearly weaker but still relevant form for years. > Karma's ult is designed to be used multiple times per fight, so it doesn't make sense. A design choice I somewhat disagree with, to be honest. It wasn't designed that way, but they pushed so much power into it that it became meaningless. They took away the actualy choice you could make with mantra and made it so that you had to mantra over and over again to be useful.... instead of using the right mantra at the right time. > Karma shouldn't be behind enemies, so you have to tether someone who will be diving PAST the enemies You could easily tether an Irelia back in the days. Or Trynda. But usually you'd rather tether your ADC to trip their divers; which only makes sense if Karma is a battlemage/bruiser and not a squishy backline support. You also used to be able to tether to minions/wards, which gave it a lot more use too. > I like that her abilities embody balance - q is offense, w is offense and defense, e is defense. Her mantra enhances those abilities in ways that makes them further exemplify which part of the kit you use it on. Thematically it fits, you use her mantra to help restore the balance by amplifying one side of it. No offense, that sounds poetic, but once you think about it, the abilities aren't that meaningful. Most support champs have an offensive Q, a W with CC and a defensive E. And just having _more_ of a thing... I mean, I get it, you think it can help tip the balance, but the way she is scaling atm this decision which one of the three to mantra only works in the early game. Once you have items two of the mantras fall off HARD, making them bad options nearly all of the time. It's weird, it feels like you could like what I am proposing in my [Quick Fix.](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/RHn0ZE62-quick-fix-for-karma) A W that can be offensive and defensive (resistances for allies) and a mantra that can reasonably be used on all 3 of the abilities depending on the situation, not your build. > She is a well-rounded support offering both damage, cc, and protection. What makes her different to Nami, Lulu and Sona in that regard? It sounds like that could describe any of them. Anyhow, I am not even opposed to those ideas though, those are things that I am fighting to retain. Well, you could argue that I have some issues with her CC, but that's never been Karma's strength anyways. > Her kit isn't built around a single power-spike at 6 like many, which makes her fun to play I don't think I follow that point. > and she can used both as an aggressive bully or as a protective buffer during lane. Again, it sounds like Lulu or Nami and is nothing that anyone wants to take away. Quite frankly, I would rather she can have that identity throughout the entire game, instead of JUST the laning phase. Or do you prefer her to become a shieldbot later on, instead of that nice mix that can play aggressor or protector depending on the situation?

And people hate her with a passion...

What assumptions exactly? I shaped my opinion in 4 years of constant debates with Karma players, fans and haters. So, yes, it's kind of my opinion, but ont only. And the best arguments I could find. My endgoal is to unify all Karma bases under the best rework there can be. Why do you prefer her without a shieldbomb? Without ally tether? Do you enjoy simpler and more straight forward designs? What does she have now that's superior to her old self and/or comparable champs? See, I liked a lot of things about old Karma and I like a lot about new Karma (and all the in betweens as well), but I think that both missed/are missing a ton of her potential. Unnecessarily. Could you help me out and tell me exactly what you like, dislike in that regard? And what is it you like about the current design?

I know a lot of people who are strongly favouring a revert. With Rengar and LeBlanc reverts, they got our hopes up. NeuroCat was supposed to make a rework on THEIR level, but proposed a frankensteinian graft to her kit instead. Now that Zac is partly getting a revert, we can still have hope. Do you happen to know my [Quick Fix ](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/RHn0ZE62-quick-fix-for-karma) proposition, btw?

Truth. She used to be a battlemage {{champion:50}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:127}} was reworked to a support mage {{champion:61}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:25}} and since then treated like a support {{champion:117}} {{champion:267}} {{champion:40}} Depending on where you would put her here, we know which Karma you liked.

Every opinion matters equally. I care more about reasons and arguments tho. Where do you disagree with me?

That's fair. Sure, I would argue, that it does MORE than _"only"_ making her more confusing. But I had a chat with NeuroCat when she was working on Karma and she argued similarly to you. She said changing the aiming paradigm of a spell when mantra-ing might be confusing. I think it's a weak argument, but a valid one. And imho worth the cost. It's not to make it _easier_ per se. When I propose that idea I usually also mention, that I would like to make the projectile slower in exchange, to make it harder to hit at max range and easier to hit at close range (opposite of now). Besides, if you have to aim somewhere instead of in a direction, the enemy can dodge into and away from you as well. Can be somewhat of a mindgame there, which makes it inherently more interesting. > The other big point is, that's still a little patch up on a big problem she still has. Ye, I feel ya. I have tried many times over the years to adress the multiple problems she has. The best approach I found was my [Twin Dragon Rework](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/oxNbhh7j-a-detailed-post-on-karma-and-her-twin-dragons) suggestion. It was quite popular for a time. The easiest approach, I think, was that [Quick Fix](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/RHn0ZE62-quick-fix-for-karma) I posted some time ago. Would you mind having a look at the latter one and tell me, if you see glaring issues with it? Or if you dislike it personally? The first is rather long, so you don't have to bother.

For the sake of argument, if Q were to stay the same, but only RQ was ground targeted, would you agree to that?

Hi there. I think I was the first to propose a Ground Targeted RQ (GTRQ). As such it would be wise to add a few things, because _"awkward farming"_ isn't the main issue I have with current **RQ**: It's _Karma's area of threat_. Karma has two ways of dealing damage, **Q** and **W**. However, W is most effective at close range (guaranteeing both damage ticks and root), while **Q** is somewhat neutral, but still slightly easier to hit up close. **RQ** turns it into an artillery spell, that is way more effective at longer ranges, due to it exploding at max range; this makes it hit people that would have ordinarily dodged it. What this does to Karma is, that her main damage spell contradicts her usual threat range and muddies her identity; where is she supposed to be compared to where her enemy is supposed to be. At max range? Up close? There is no telling. Sure, currently Karma wants you to be exactly at MAX **RQ** range at all times, but if someone goes at ya, they can't even dodge your **W** damage/root. If **W** was a spell that worked at the same range - similar to how Vel'Koz spells work, hit and dodgeable at all ranges - it would be well and dandy, but currentlly the enemy is effed at max **RQ** range and at **W** range. Or not, if they are strong enough to tank through it, but then Karma has no options. Is that really what we want? That binary BS? No interaction or creativity? > _I don't think that's how Riot envisioned team fighting on Karma to be, and I feel like if enemies aren't respecting her damage potential as they would with any other mage, they should take damage._ So here's a hard truth: _They have no vision for Karma_. The person who invented her is long gone, everyone who ever touched her had idas that weren't conherent or compatible with any one before it. Karma is also a bad mage, because **RQ** is 3/4ths of her damage, making her damage paradigm way too spikey to be healthy. On top of that, the current **RQ** is so unreliable in some fights you can't ever get the damage where it's supposed to be, sometimes only due to bad luck (minions randomly re-targetting, for example). On the flip side, you sometimes hit people who had no chance to dodge, which isn't fair either. The damage of a mage should never be in 2 spells alone and it should not be that luck dependent. Because for a single projectile **RQ's** damage is incredibly high, but Karma's kit has rather little damage as a whole. This was not an issue before **5.10**, because up to then putting all your damage into **RQ** was a CHOICE you made, since both **W** and **E** could carry that damage as well, giving Karma reliable options, that needed to be respected. I hold that **5.10** was a mistake, due to a lack of understanding and vision for her kit, and now Karma's potential is rotting in the cellar of that idiotic shieldbot maiden they made her. Even in the only animation she has ever been in she did nothing but stand there and throw a single shield. The protector of her people, wielder of twin dragons, avatar of balance and LoL's hadouken girl #1 can do nothing but apply blurry turqoise bubble blobs? Give me a break. **KARMA NEEDS RELIABLE DAMAGE OPTIONS; BE IT WITH A MORE BALANCED RQ OR THE SIGNATURE SPELL SHE HAD FOR 5 FUCKING YEARS: SHIELDBOMB.** Ivern can have one, Neeko can have one, it was what she was known for and her absence made her a one dimensional luck based gimp. Fight me.

I was very surprised that after 8 years of Karma existing, they actually used her in a cinematic. I had nearly given up at this point. Which annoys me though is that she appears to do nothing but shield people and run around menacingly, which is telling me Riot isn't seeing Karma the way a lot of Karma players see her. Like, you know, a mage that can handle sololanes. And cast stuff other than shields. But at least they are acknowledging her and put her in one of the most awesome cinematics they ever did so... I should probably shut up.

It's a common missconception. She has always been played mid and was reworked to mostly work there, but she wasn't... conceived to be there, because things back then were different. When Ali used to be a jungler and Maokai didn't exist yet... I am considering creating a... kind of "History of Karma" post, just to give everyone a clearer picture of how things were and changed, but I am afraid of forgetting something, and it would probably take more time than I can afford atm. I didn't follow Lux and Ahri's process as close as Karma's, but from announcment to final product Karma would actually have close to a half a year as well. It's a shame NC didn't get _enough_ time, but I also have to admit she kinda did get sidetracked by going crazy over W functions and with trying to please EVERYONE at once. She stretched herself thin and didn't deliver as well as she could or wanted to. I also don't get why she was so proud of W and RW. To me it was obvious what Karma needed changes to unify the community, NC tried to... move her forward. In a community that clings to the past like ours that's a really dangerous thing to do. I have been around here and yapping on about Karma for over 3 years now. I am kind of burnt out, because at this point I have heard every argument, seen every pointless counter and made ever post I could think about. And NeuroCat should've been the grand finale, that I supported on discord but... eh. I just dunno.

Mid lane mage first? Karma was released in a time before fixed lanes and roles. Back then Riot actively refused to acccept or pander to any meta. Karma was most notably a china/buddha themed champion, that, while supportive and a teamplayer by nature, worked best and most frequently in toplane, duelling bruisers and other battlemage, like Vlad, Rumble and Swain. Her rework (3.5) set her up to be more if a supportmage, in the lines of Ori, Lux and Morgana, champions with strong mage capabilities, that also worked reasonably well in duo lanes. The 5.10 update then put her in line with other Enchanters, such as Lulu and Janna, however - up until season 7 and Karma's pro match dominance - she was still predominantly played in midlane and even had enough playrate in toplane to have trackable stats. Summing up: At one point or another Karma has appealed to fans of battlemages in toplane (Ryze, Rumble), mages in midlane (Lux, Ori) and enchanters in botlane (Janna, Lulu). At the same time Karma has had QoL changes that increased how approachable and viable she was and decreased her depth and complexity. While also trying to reinvent her visual and lore identity, without ever fully finishing it. It comes to no surprise to me that Karma's fanbase is divided like no other. What DOES surprise me, however, is that, instead of trying to create a cohesive kit, gameplay identity and a somewhat middleground lane viability, Riot decides to pander to the most recent playerbase and adds a - yet again - completely new and unrelated identity in form of her ally W (that has its own set of issues), further blurring her identity and adding yet another rift in her playerbase. I am both confused and disappointed. Also somewhat disgusted by the careless and short sighted handling of her identity, which is the main reason for all the fighting within the Karma community. We did not cause this, but have to fight it out in fear of losing what we love. All because Riot can't get their act together and adress this issue once and for all. These half-assed tacked on attempts just make it worse. Karma needs to have unifying work done, not have a single designer hastily push her in whatever direction (I say this with a huge load of aversion for RickLess and a ton of love for NeuroCat).

I know you care a lot. I mean, not about votes or anything, but that stuff. In general. To me it seems like you'd love to move something. Push the world a tiny bit towards reason. With the passion of a raging Barbarian. But there's that thing, that people are more likely to listen, to comprehend, to follow, when they find you likeable. And there have been moments, where I tried to bring forth good arguments for our case and I have been downvoted simply because they thought I was yet another whine thread. I admire your persistence, but I'd hope for you to change your ways a bit. Like, it would make it easier. For all of us.

> [{quoted}](name=Wintertechnics,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=9Lr7qMjO,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-11-26T00:18:45.131+0000) > > Maybe I was. I dont really care. NeuroCat failed us and Meddler cntuines to Maybe you would even get more upvotes / fewer downvotes if that was the point you made, lol. You have made quite a few good posts in the last few weeks, it's a shame you got a bit too... creative this time.

1) I think I don't have to mention again, that the only actual thing your posts achieve is destroying the public opinion of us Karma mains, right? Right. I usually don't comment on your threads anymore to adress this, but since you made me comment _now_, I might as well repeat myself for the zigillionth time. 2) Riot is a huge company. Of course there will be _alleged_ mean comments for at least one of their employees. This generation is more accepting and open than any before, but even in these days we still have to figure out, as a society, what is hurtful to say (and needs to be adressed) and what is okay to say (and we need to calm the fuck down). I see so much confusion on both sides. You are on the _take a fucking chill pill_ side of the story atm. 3) Saying _"a company may or may not be involved in some criminal acts"_ without providing even a hint of proof or context is just meaningless slander. Which are two words I never thought I would use in conjunction. You know, I don't think people get, that the problem with racism _isn't_ that it's against poor blacks, or with sexism, that it's suppressing women or stuff. The problem with both concepts is, that it blames individuals for their groups and vice-versa. Like seeing a single black man commit a crime _"Blacks are criminal scum!"_ Then seeing another black person _"You are a criminal, since you are black!"_ It's called an attribution fallacy and I never thought I would see it used against a company. One Riot employee says something (probably) sexist -> Riot is sexist -> Every employee at Riot is sexist. Thats so illogical and backwards it pains me to see you write it. Like _"An orange is a fruit."_ And then concluding _"Fruits are oranges."_ and then meeting an apple _"Oh, you are a fruit? I see, I know you oranges very well, you being red can't hide that fact!"_ I seriously hope you are just drunk again, and we can talk about this when you have sobered up.

Been here since season 2 and never heard it. Most people didn't even know who Karma was before her rework. I mean, for Garen's sake, that used to be a meme back then: _"Karma...who?"_ Mained her before the rework and after it as well, never heard people seriously complain, only in one ARAM game, when people were baffled I could keep healing all my allies (spent mantra on nothing else). But ARAM was broken back then anyways, and any healing champ was OP AF. Only now, in retrospect, people keep seeing her shieldbomb and AoE heals as problematic. But when they were life no one complained. It's seriously confusing.

I have seen her used semi-effectively as a jungler seasons ago, dunno about now. With the upcoming changes she would be slightly better tho, since her passive triggers off of monsters then. Passive is nerfed too tho, so, who knows? Probably still a fun off-meta thing, even if not competitive.

> I have played more than 3000 Karma ranked games in high division. I know what works and what doesn't. It really baffles me, that you are so keen on this stuff. Yet here you are, a person who played so much Karma in "a high division", but in a single post you got 3 facts about her absolutely wrong. And not, like, randomly, you used them as arguments? See what I mean? It doesn't matter if you are good at executing certain playstyles. Your understanding of the champion is all I care about. You missjudged my motivations, lumped people into groups to strawman them, attacked their credentials, didn't know your facts on Karma, disregarded parts of her community and then pretend like it is more important what rank or number of games you have. I will prefer the inexperienced opinion of a newcoming bronze 5 player any day of the week, than this aggressive, puffed-up, judgemental and missinformed style of yours. Like, you attack people for playing not enough Karma, then attack them for one-tricking them. The hell, man? If you have to resort to addressing the person, it's obvious to me that you are either very inexperienced at proving your points, or you simply can't handle their arguments. I am so glad I am posting on my old accounts these days to avoid those annoying ad hominems...

> You're just bugged on Karma's shield bomb as I always said. A blind person could figure that out by reading my posts. However, If you think this is the only thing I care about, then you are mistaken. Regarding your spell comparisons... you are just calling out differences? Like Sion's shield 11s, Ivern's shield 12-8s and then you pretend like Karma's shield is 8s... first it's 10-8s, second that's irrelevant since thats NOT her shieldbomb. Sure, Sion and Ivern have a delay, but nobody ever said Karma's bomb can't have a delay? In fact, we discussed this quite intensely on discord, and then were kinda surprised that Neeko turned out to have EXACTLY the kind of indicator and delay some Karma fans suggested. Sion's damage 40-140 (+40%AP) (+10-14% enemymaxhp) Ivern's damage 80-220 (+80%AP) Karma's damage 60-360 (+60%AP) And just remember, squishies have up to 2khp, so Sion deals already up to 280 extra damage. On a base spell. On a lower CD. And can have it maxed earlier. See look, if you just pick out certain numbers and compare them when they suit you, you can make it look any way you want. Ignoring values now, since they can be changed, let's adress your arguments: > So, you get a 3 seconds to react versus this shield, you can destroy it, you can stay away from Sion, you can lock him in place before that shield does anything to you. It's also a basic ability on a way lower cooldown (up to a fourth of the CD) and arguably higher base damage. But sure, if Karma's shieldbomb gets a delay/travel time + indicator or could be destroyed would that change anything for you? > Ivern's building path is meant to go support and defensive to help his team. I really wonder why you think _"a defensive support champ that isn't supposed to deal damage can have a shieldbomb"_ but "a battlemage/enchantress that is supposed to deal damage CANT have one"_ is sensible in any way? > You channel first for 1,25 second and you jump in the air for 0,75 second and THEN 1,25 second gap before the shield detonate. That's over 3,25 second before the shield explodes. The 1.25s channel can be done while disguised (no indicator, nothing). The 0.75s jump already slows enemies by 40% The 1.25s are the duration of the STUN, after the damage already happened. So it's 0.75 - 2.0s. So in some cases they have 0.75s to escape an area way bigger than Karma's shieldbomb while being slowed before being hit by way more damage and then being stunned. On a champion with an easy root and slow that cant be blocked. Dealing twice the damage with a single spell on only roughly three times the CD. > Unlike Karma she won't have a way to spam that spell, and you'll need to think carefully to use that spell That spell is self casting Karma never could "spam" that spell and I am against her ever being able to. I detest spammy mantras anyways. > Evelynn's old ult I don't count that as a "shieldbomb". It's more like a "shieldleech". > Her shield would easily refresh her Mantra's cooldown, giving her more opportunity to cast that spell With those retarded values introduced after the shieldbomb removal (5.10) maybe... But with NeuroCat's new CD passive this wouldn't be an issue anyways. > Her shield provided no additionnal shield value when mixed with mantra Yes it did. The AoE value (30-180 +30%AP) applied to the primary target as well. > but only giving extra dmg which is NOT a support trait. That's not how a support helps his allies. Well and there you go pretending like Karma was or should be a support (only) and can't have mage traits. There are like thousands of Karma players who officially would try to lynch you for trying that stuff. > Her shield was usually used to be a iniative tool to get near ennemies. Since shields now last 1,5 second, it would be stupid to waste the shield value and shieldbomb. It doesn't work right now. 2.5s If you wanna prove me wrong with numbers, at least use the correct ones. And ffs, 3.5-5.10 shieldbomb was interesting because it had so many uses and could never be optimized, making it a spell that required creativity and situational awareness, constantly judging ups and downs, while trying to time it right for optimal use. People who like to pretend the ability didn't need SKILL because, oh, well, it was not a skillshot, feel undescribably shortsighted to me. There used to be knowledgebased and skillbased champs in the game. Karma, the enlightened one, requiring a lot of decision making and game knowledge? Who would've guessed... So, no, sometimes, in rare cases, it was worth it "wasting" the shieldvalue and damage for catching up to enemies or escaping... and the enemies were to spread out for a reliable RQ, for example. > Mixed with her other spells, it would would make perfect sense that her shield wouldn't do any dmg. You choose offensive (Q) or defensive (E). Not both. That's in her lore and everything she does. And yet another person who didn't get the "duality" memo. This kind of "decisionmaking" was forced onto her by Rick in 5.10 and was contrary to how she, uniquely, was different in this kind of decision making. She always had damage and always had utility and had to find scenarios in which both would be most beneficial. > I DO care about peoples credentials. Google "ad hominem" fallacy then. If they lack knowledge I don't care where they come from. Even a diamond player can have missinformed opinions. A pro can prefer to abuse stats instead of caring for game design. A physically handicapped person can have great insight into the game, but being unable to compete physically. Thus I don't even bother. Ideas and arguments stand at their own merit, not based on who uses them.

Why are people finding and commenting on my old posts atm, lol? But anyways, let me answer your issues. > Here's my opinion on this thread: A lot of words. You didn't really prove yourself to be any better with your lengthy reply, lol. > It's biased toward what YOU enjoyed about her well over 4 + years ago. And there I start doubting you even read this thread. Holy fuck, like the literally first sentence is me saying I don't wanna go back. You even messed up the timeline I presented myself. How in the anus of Nasus did you do this? People tend to confuse the relaunch (3.5) and the update (5.10), which is why I try to mention it all the time. But here, let me put it more clearly, just for you: **I agree** that old Karma was flawed and needed changes. But **I disagree** that the rework did a good job. Reworks need to preserve as much as possible, and build on existing idea. Yet, her rework tossed out great ideas and replaced it with generic, but functional things. If the identity of the old and new character are too far apart, no matter how good or problematic they objectively are, the rework was bad. As an example: People loved the fanblades, but didn't care about the new green magic blobs. If they delivered on their twin-dragon-thematics there would be significantly smaller outrage. But if they actually used the fanblades in her rework it would've been a better rework, no matter if the final product would've been better. ... The rest of your reply is just you rambling on about how you think Karma needs to be played. What is interesting, but besides the point.

Tether (W) used to be the speedbuff, yes. Buttons aren't that congruent from older champions. But E is usually the (ally) shield button. It's the same for Janna, Lulu, Orianna, Morgana,... You have tendencies of Q being the base damage spell W being either mobility or secondary damage spells. E being protective spells. But there are no hard rules for that. Also how did you find that ancient thread, lol.

Yeah... until shield items came along and broke Rick's ISNTCONTEXTUALDECISIONMAKINGGREAT - RE. He came up with the "mega shield" and it just took an item revamp to make her somewhat problematic. If 3.5 RE was still around she wouldn't have been a blance problem...

> No matter how many times I argue with you, i'm pretty sure you won't accept anything from me. I've seen your countless theads of Karma in the forum. Then you should have seen countless people convincing me with good arguments. > I'm not saying that her shieldbomb concept is bad, no, it got transfered to Ivern and Sion with a minor difference (or even with Neeko as you say). It was actually how problematic the shieldbomb was for Karma's kit. Sion used to have his before Karma, since he is older, but yeah. NC's reason for not reintroducing shieldbomb was, that it could've eaten too much of the power she freed by nerfing the passive,... but then again she refused to adress the unnecessary bonus-root and buffed the values on all basic abilities. However, most of its competitive power is/was in the MS buff anyways... which she nerfed as well? > Karma's new W added effect literally just took Soraka's old mana regain for allies. Now let me tell you that Soraka's previous E was also one of her signature and core spells during laning phase. The concept wasn't bad, but just like Karma, It was also problematic for Soraka. I challenged NC on this. I wanted to know how a mana donating spells isn't okay on Soraka, but on Karma it is. She said the CDR was an enabler and kind of pointless if the target had no mana to fully use it. To make it equally useful on all targets ressources must be included in the CDR package. I then asked why it then didn't add energy as well, which made her hesitate a bit, but she continued with admitting to being very cautious around energy users. But anyways, Soraka trivialized some champions' weaknesses, since they used to be balanced around manacost. It's not that rough these days, but that's also the reason mana pots are gone. Soraka worked as a mana battery. Karma has it to enable another thing. On a longer CD. I think the argument isn't THAT it is different, but looking into WHY it is different is crucial. > Yes, Neeko have a similar effect. But that's her ULTIMATE. You can add a lot of power for an ultimate especially when it's 90 second cooldown. And Ivern's shield isn't an ultimate. And Karma's ability is two spells, one of which is a semi ultimate. You can literally have the power of two basic spells and then some. > I'm not a game designer, but I know a lot about balancing when i'm constantly playing against high level players. I even got friend's who are level designers. There are things that LOOKS okay on paper, but is not good in reality. Karma's shieldbomb was one of them. I literally do not care about your credentials at all. You could have played one single LoL game and I wouldn't think twice about it. Logical reasons is the only thing I crave. Prove why Karma's shieldbomb is bad, but Sion's, Ivern's and Neeko's aren't. Rick removed it to add "contextual decision making", which failed. NC didn't reintroduce it because she wanted to spend her power budget elsewhere. None of those reasons scream "inherently problematic" to me.

I seriously don't get it. 3 champs will now have shieldbombs in one way or another. Sion was reworked with his intact before Karma's lost hers (5.10) and Ivern was created after that - so obviously Riot must consider shieldbombs healthy and attainable spells in league. Karma fans have been angry about the removal of shieldbomb for 3 years now. It was the most requested thing for this GU. It is the _one_ thing old and new Karma fans seem to agree on; It was her signature spell. It would grant her at least _some_ reliable damage, the lack of which is the one thing crippling mage Karma atm. Additionally it would help fight the imbalance between mantra choices based on your build. So it's a viable spell, it would unifiy the fanbases, it would help her balance problems. It is the most requested feature and has been part of her kit for 5 years. So obviously Riot gives us a Zilean effect on her W {{sticker:zombie-brand-clap}}

> I'm not sure about which version of Karma you're talking about for Duality, but the current Karma is way better for dueling if you compare her to the first Karma. Did you just confuse duelling and duality? > All what you people want from Karma is her shieldbomb making you blind to all other changes she's had in multiple patches. When her rework came in, her win rate was beyond horrendous. All of her spells felt weak, even with her shieldbomb because of her old passive being replaced. The cause ? she couldn't spam enough mantra to get her effect in and her empowered effects were all a bit unsatisfying. You lump me in with people I don't know and possibly don't agree on. Your assumption I only care about shieldbomb is demonstrably wrong, if you look up my threads in the last 3 years. I only care for closing the gap in the Karma community and making Karma a wholesome and fulfilling champion. Your idea that one couldn't **agree** with a champion needing change and **disagree** with the proposed/implemented changes is unfathomably shortsighted. > Now Riot did a big cleanup on Karma, and gave her more identity when she uses a mantra charge with each of her spells and instead of all of her choices giving her extra dmg, it could provide either a higher CC, DMG or shield which I do think is pretty clear. Now? They only thing they have been doing in the past 2 years is juggle values. NeuroCat is only adding a new ally target W. Which is a problem in itself; adding something completely new is just creating a third playerbase for her, instead of pleasing current and old fans equally. It also dilludes Karma's concept even further. Also, this "cleanup" or whatever you wanna call it, happened in 5.10 and was the cause for all the balance issues that followed since then. It ruined her flexibility as a damage mage, made her predictable and boring, made her better as a shieldbot in the support role, instead of a champion that needs to balance out damage and shielding all the time and made her RW selfhealing beyond broken. Tank Karma was no issue before then. Ricklessabandon claimed he wanted to create better decision making, but ruined it, because ever since then, in every of Karma's possible roles, one mantra runs dominant. RQ for mage, RW for tank, RE for support. > i'm repeating this again and again, her Shield bomb was PROBLEMATIC. It wasn't. Otherwise Sion and Ivern wouldn't have one. Also, jokes on you, the next champion is getting a shieldbomb as well (with a TIMER :0) ) People can't keep claiming the ideas on her were bad and then they keep popping up on other champions all the time. Shieldbomb {{champion:427}} , lvl6 spells {{champion:126}} , ally tether {{champion:44}} ... > If they added a timer, it wouldn't feel like an ultimate The idea that a base-spell-enhancing ressource MUST _feel_ like an ultimate is the core issue of the problem. Just being obsessed with feelings instead of actual game design is problematic as fuck. Corki also has no spell that feels like an ultimate. So what? What about Jayce and Nidalee? Their transformations don't FEEL like ultimates either? > This would be problematic with Support Karma if all they would think of is R+E. You used to be able to spot inexperienced Karma players by whether they used RQ or RE to waveclear (3.5-5.10). Besides: a single person not understanding the full potential and capabilities of a champion may NOT be used to excuse balance decisions. > Rick removed it and it allowed Karma to have redistribute buffs elsewhere. Did you not get this? Removing core spells can NOT be excused by adding power elsewhere. You want to have interesting champions MORE than just champions with bloated numbers. > She's still one of the top champion whenever it comes to shielding someone. Being the "best at shielding" isn't a desireable or fulfilling champion fantasy. > Riot did A LOT of changes on champions that I like, but I still play them; I also love Sion and like new Swain even more than before. So what?

> Now you're just being salty because that shield's dmg got removed. You guys don't even talk about her other spells and how it still keeps the spirit of the old Karma. Yes, I am salty about that. Have been, for over 3 years now. And yes "we guys" do talk about her tether-touch, her duality spells, her battlemage identity, her old lore, her lvl6 spells, her double mantra charges... Just because I did not mention it here _specifically_ doesn't mean I, or any other Karma fan, never talks about it. > All I can hear of is she's boring and dull. She still retains her Mantra, and teether identity AND she still has a shield ability. First of all, Meddler himself called her reworked (3.5) version _"in many ways a pretty bland [champion]"_ and _"not sufficiently satisfying or distinct"_. Second of all, her mantra shifted from a secondary ressource that added opposite effects to a simple cooldown based spell empowering feature. Basically a machine gun version of Heimer, and that's a completely different thing. Old tether was creative and awkward, new tether is atrociously uninspired and... a shield without shieldbomb is about as much "retaining" her identity about it, as Lulu or Janna have stolen it. I.e. not in the slightest. > They removed her dmg which pissed of a lot of low elo players because it was an easy source of dmg for them with very low counterplay. If Karma ever poked you with RE she used the cooldown of her self-heal, self-shield and (in 3.5-5.10) her MS buff. If this isn't an invitation for all-inning her, you don't understand how cooldowns and counterplay works. > Karma's old passive was Ryze's old passive. Yet, no one talked about that but it was also part of her identity. Yes, yes we did. The Karma mains and NeuroCat talked about it on Discord. Repeatedly. > Riot didn't completely removed her signature spell, they reworked it to make it bearable. She had a shieldspell that dealt AoE damage for 5 years. It was her one most definining and versatile damage spell. Now she doesn't. They didn't add a timer. They didn't add a travel time. The didn't nerf the damage. No tweaking or adapting. They removed it. Rick did. For a stupid fucking reason. > Ryze, Evelynn, GP, Galio I am not gonna defend their work on Ryze. Also I don't know why I should. Can I not be opposed to multiple reworks? Yes, GP got NEW stuff. They built on his charakter and added a new and unique mechanic. That's good. And yup, they fucked up Galio as well. It's not that his old self didn't need a rework and new one is bad champ or anything, just as a rework it sucks (same as Aatrox, for example). > Don't think that I'm not for a Karma rework. I've been playing Karma since 2011 and my favourite spell was actually her (Q) Heavenly waves because it was easy to hit with and it offered some healing. I don't think liking a spell because it's easy to hit is a good thing, but I won't&can't tell you what to like. I liked RQ because it required clever positioning, but I prefer new Q over old Q. I have been advocating for a mixture of the new and old Q/RQ for a long time now. Make current RQ ground targeted, give it old RQ's heal. Done. Better spell, can still poke for New Karma fans, can still heal, requires positioning and awareness and works way better on a double explosion, since allies can actively seek it etc. > Do I like her Soulflare ? Yes I do, and Karma is STILL my most played champion. No idea what you are getting at here, but... good for you?

> [{quoted}](name=Hochelaga,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=juZP1sNz,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-11-14T14:34:26.535+0000) > > Riot mentionned it multiple times, > > Giving back Karma's shield bomb would be excesively too powerful and her other spells would suffer major nerfs in order to balance her out which would eventually make her a shield bot bomber again. > > By removing her shield bomb, it allows Riot to put more power in other spells. I don't care how much power they could pour into Thresh's kit if they just removed the lantern, I don't want champions to lose their signature spells they had for years. Build on unique concepts, don't remove them and excuse it with added power.

You can't have a spell on a champion for 5 years, take it away without giving any reason, have it return on another champion a year later, and then expect fans not to complain or be upset. She had it first and the spell obviously has a place in League. Same as lvl6 spells and ally linking (which is returning tho).

I agree, it's highly unlikely, since the changes are softlocked, but nothing wrong with trying to bring forth some arguments, to get a champion the spell back, that was their signature spell for 5 years.

NeuroCat tried many damage/CC reflects and redirection spells in place of W. They apparantly didn't survive playtesting. I too miss some karmic side in her tho...

Yeah, sure, I wrote that rework for the community, if you wanna compile or even build on it; I am happy to be contributing!

We discussed this idea of linking any two targets together on discord. NeuroCat noted it to be clunky in terms of input.

Yeah, erm, I really like what you are trying to do here, but the changes are already softlocked. NeuroCat is leaving League in a few weeks already (still working for Riot, no worries). There is no chance we are still able to influence greatly what is about to come. Either way, if you are interested in my reworks, here are my two most successful ones (plus one extra): __________________________ __________________________ [Twin Dragon Rework (VGU)](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/oxNbhh7j-a-detailed-post-on-karma-and-her-twin-dragons) _The idea was to flesh out Karma's visual and gameplay identity with the twin dragons found in the concept art of her rework and even in the game files._ **P:** Karma's spells are affected by Ouro and Boros alternatingly, gaining either offensive or defensive qualities. Mantra applies both effects. She passively gains magic damage on hit or bonus resistances depending on the active dragon. **Q:** Hitting enemies heals the closest ally OR deals bonus damage based on their kills. Slow removed. **RQ:** Ground targeted now, applies all effects, detonates quicker. Slow removed. **W:** Targeted buff/debuff that increases/reduces damage on ally/enemy. Ouro heals nearby allies, Boros damages nearby allies based on damage to target. **RW:** Combined effects with no cap. **E:** Ouro grants speedbuff, Boros creates small shieldbomb. **RE:** Increases initial shield and explosion radius. Speeds up hit allies. **R:** Resets on nearby ally death. __________________________ __________________________ [Small Scale Rework (GU)](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/RHn0ZE62-quick-fix-for-karma) _This tried to use as little change as possible to fix Karma's issues in a reasonable manner._ **P:** Added cap per spell. Also added option for triggering passive by aiding allies. **Q:** Unchanged **RQ:** Ground targeted now. **W:** Targetting an ally increases their resistances. **RW:** Heal changed to not scale with tankstats anymore. Bonus damage reintroduced. Bonus root removed. Targetting allies heals them like Karma. **E:** Unchanged **RE:** Shieldbomb reintroduced. Shield now slightly scales with enemies hit. **R:** Unchanged __________________________ __________________________ [Double Mantra Rework(GU)](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/jpxfF5r0-a-modern-karma-with-two-mantra-charges) _This was one of my first attempts and tried to imagine modern Karma with mantra charges._ **P** - Karma gains bonus AP based on the %hp she (and her allies) lost in the last 5s. **R** - Karma stores up to 1/2/2/3 stacks of Mantra. Using one charge adds another aspect to the spell. Two charges create an ultimate level of the spell. **Q** - Unchanged. **RQ** - Targeted AoE that also heals allies in the area. **RRQ** - Increases size and applies the same effect again after a short delay. **W** - Links a target to someone of the same team (champions have priority). Enemies receive damage over time and are rooted if they stay in range. They also receive a part of the damage and all the slows their partner suffers. Allies gain resistances as long as the bond persists. They also receive half of the speeds, heals and shields their parnter receives. **RW** - Enemies: shorter tether range. Breaking the tether stuns both targets. Allies: Increases tether range and duration. Fully transfers all shields/heals/movespeed. **RRW** - Links all possible targets to the main target. **E** - Shields and speeds target ally. If the target is tethered, the buffs last until the tether breaks. **RE** - Increases the shield value and damages enemies around the target. **RRE** - The range of the explosion is increased. If the target was a champion, shielding and damage is increased if it is low health. The first two I linked to NC when she took charge of the work and I took the time to [welcome](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/rnvO7uGw-an-open-welcome-letter-to-riotneurocat-as-the-person-working-on-karma) her. So this is probably only interesting to the other interested Karma mains/reworkers out there. I am personally not really in favour of any of those exact reworks anymore, but they have historic value to me and show my thought process. Duality, battlemage, shieldbomb and unifying the community are strong goals of mine.

Well, Meddler announced the rework would very likely be on the scope of _Rengar_ and _LeBlanc_, both reworks that were 80-90% reverts. So they technically never said or promised a revert, but maybe you can kinda see why some Karma mains got their hopes up for a return of shieldbomb at least.

People missremember things. Sorry, but until you prove me otherwise, I will stick with what the wiki has.

> _Things change, champions change. People will always complain when a champion mechanic gets replaced by another_ And I think it's Riot's job to limit this to a minimum. Realizing there will always be criticism is valuable, yes, but taking this as an excuse to ignore what a champion was loved for, is a bad move imo. If you take something away, it must always be OBJECTIVELY BETTER than there was before, simply because people value getting things and losing the same thing differently. Like, increasing visuals, but taking away beloved playstyles or patterns is not worth it to most people. In a way I even critisize NC for not going far enough. She was soo afraid of displeasing anyone, that she did the bare minimum and only added spells/effects. But instead of honing Karma to one playstyle and identity now, instead of unifying her kit, she dilluded it further and missed opportunities. So I can be found on both sides of this argument. I think only saying "well, some things must go" can't be the end of the argument, it must be the start. Now let's discuss WHY things need to go or stay.