Raiokun (NA)
: Think its more along the lines of they want karma to reign like this until they can figure out wtf to do with her again. Sorta like how AP was global problem but at the time they didn't really know how to push him. A lazy response in my opinion but she was mentioned last post but not this one making me think they're still wondering how people play her. (Which is ironic because I straight up dropped her after the ap nerfs) Zilean is more fun to me now. A heck of a lot less effective and bone dead boring to play but that's still more fun than just pressing E every 4 seconds.
They haven't adressed RW in 6 years, which makes no sense, since they obviously don't like Tank Karma and it's the root of all the issues. The Q nerf that slapped midlane Karma out of viability was so badly aimed I almost can't believe it wasn't intentional. The heal makes so little sense it should've been the first and easiest to change, not much thought needed....
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lIAuT6Ie,comment-id=000f000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-08T21:18:54.462+0000) > > {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}} > > It's an official term since 2016 > See more here: > https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Champion_classes/Mage#Battlemages > > "Control Mage" isn't. Like, one of those is talking about Akali and Sylas... Are you cherry picking or?? W/e... If you type "battle mage league of legends" into google; any post you pick will mention control mages... So control mage is a much older term. Like, there have been ppl criticizing the term "battle mage" for years now. So you're either ignorant to the subject or just being blatantly deceitful. No reason you would not have seen this for yourself.
> Like, one of those is talking about Akali and Sylas... Are you cherry picking or?? You listed them as examples and then talked about control mages? How am I supposed to know you are specifically not talking about the same category for these two? > If you type "battle mage league of legends" into google; any post you pick will mention control mages... So control mage is a much older term. Yes, and it was an undefined term, so one day Riot decided they need workable official definitions and created the ones I linked you to. As long as you don't present me with an official definition we can agree on to what you think a control mage should and shouldn't include, I can only guess what you mean. Control Mage was most likely abandoned, because it wasn't clear enough since most mages have some sort of control over other champions. It's what mages do. The way they do it is interesting, that's why the categories "persistent damage and survivability", "kill before you can retaliate" and "Kill from long range" are workable subcategories.
Zkaiser (NA)
: That scaling is for prework Karma fans to still be able to try and play her like she used to be played. She would bait people and while low since she got free AP for being low HP.
It really can't be. There is no reason it should be **20% (+1%AP)** missing hp, when old Karma used a less tank focused scaling with **135 + 5% (+2%AP)** missing hp. She both scaled better with AP and a worse with (effective) health. Why did it move to nearly pure tankscalings? Today's Karma DOUBLES her effective healing with a single Spirit Visage, while a FULL 12k gold AP build only increases it from **20%** to **25%** missing hp. A flat heal scaling with low hp makes way more sense for a support and for a mage. And instantly stops _"Tank Karma"_ from ever being broken. Just imagine it like this: 80heal + 0.05AP, increased by 3% for every 1% health missing. Quadruple healing close to death, reasons to build AP, some reason to build resistances, none to build health. Still works in toplane, but is actually useful in mid and bot, without ever breaking with tank items.
Neamean (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lIAuT6Ie,comment-id=000d000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-08T11:35:13.453+0000) > > Well, I personally try to keep Karma close to the version we already had, a transformation mage might be disliked by older mains, who prefer the case-by-case decision making her mantra once offered (and still tries to). > > Not sure how a transformation would work with her lore or fanbase, that's why I was curious if you had a clear vision. I think it could fit her lore. Her enchanter side would be the ancient spirit of karma while the battlemage is Dhara who want go on the offensive and fight for her home. At the start of the game you choose a hypothetical path karma would take. You would play as an enchanter who uphold tradition or a battlemage who forgoes tradition and pick up arms.
That could work! Again, I believe it to not find many proponents, and Riot has said that they will avoid risking a 4th Karma version, but... if you can come up with some details for spells, I'd love to hear them. I am very interested in game design.
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lIAuT6Ie,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2019-12-07T23:59:05.732+0000) > > Akali is an assassin, Sylas is a burstmage and there is no "control mage" type in leage. > I am really confused as to what you are going for. I'm not saying either is a control mage, im saying that they play like battle mages when they're broken... In other words the "battle mage" category is just a place for overpowered mages that actually belong in other classes. Ive never heard of "battle mages" until recently. Control mages, however, can completely dictate team fights with their CC and DoT. (So these are control mages.) {{champion:136}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:34}} {{champion:69}} {{champion:90}} I was saying the only genuine battle mage that comes to mind: {{champion:13}} {{champion:517}} and maybe {{champion:82}} (but I feel its debatable.) Regardless, the concept of battle mage is flawed. They usually end up being broken and gutted.
> _"Even Swain and Sol are control mages"_ > _"I'm not saying either is a control mage"_ {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}} > Ive never heard of "battle mages" until recently. It's an official term since 2016 See more here: https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Champion_classes/Mage#Battlemages "Control Mage" isn't.
: Karma is basicly the top Jayce of the midlane/support or the jungle Elise/Nidalee. She has a kit where she has access to her 4th ability from the gekko and is stronger than her counterparts till 6. We could even say she fills a crucial gap in both the mid as support role.
I don't think some movementspeed counts as "high mobility". In her champion overview she has is classified as [1 out of 3 mobility]. Additionally I would argue that low mobility fits battlemages better than artillery mages, who should have none. Lissandra and Vlad for example have a mediocre dash and small MS boost themselves. > But their is another problem. Every bad Karma player out their simply spam RQ the whole games. The average Karma player will spam RQ during the lane fase and RE during the remaining part of the game. Her RW is only used defensively when they jump on her. >The issue is that whatever you say, her kit works right now. Don't you think those two paragraphes are kind of contradictory? You obviously see the issue but claim it works? > It's not that hard to use and their is a hugh differents between a good and a bad karma player. You are the first person trying to explain to me Karma has a high skill ceiling... seriously, what exactly is there to master about Karma other than: * Knowing what your spells do * Hitting Q There is no special mastery to her kit. It's all generic things... > You really don't need to change a lot to make her an solo laner. She was overwhelmingly played as a sololaner for 6 years... Support only took over in season 7 and after that Q nerf it seems her sololanes have died. So yes, it would be easy to make her a sololaner again... just revert the 9.19 Q nerf? > Karma support still provide a lot of unique things compaired to other supports. I strongly disagree with your use of the word "unique". She has "strong poke" pre 6, but that's it. Also I don't get why you couldn't have her identity stay the same over the course of the game. Shielding&Damage early game, Shielding&Damage lategame? > We could even say she fills a crucial gap in both the mid as support role. Again, if that's so, I don't understand why this shouldn't stay the case lategame?
: The LoL Reddit
As you wish! Posted it [HERE](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/e7swax/what_subclass_is_karma_and_what_should_it_be/)
Neamean (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lIAuT6Ie,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2019-12-07T23:59:49.008+0000) > > How would you envision her to swap? Honestly just give her yhe choice, Karma has so many different type of mains letting them choose would be a good way. Or we can do it the viktor way where she get a special item that dictate her path.
Well, I personally try to keep Karma close to the version we already had, a transformation mage might be disliked by older mains, who prefer the case-by-case decision making her mantra once offered (and still tries to). Not sure how a transformation would work with her lore or fanbase, that's why I was curious if you had a clear vision.
Hibeki (NA)
: Im not really responding to you specifically, more the general consensus that 'karma needs buffs'
That's weird. It's like I'm talking to you and you are talking to a public. Either way, currently Karma is in fact weak. Support is below 49% winrate, toplane and midlane have been completely killed off. These days you even get flamed for picking Karma mid, it's become that bad. But... I know of no Karma main who - at this point - wouldn't straight up prefer a proper rework instead of a buff. Especially since any buff they've gotten has lead to another nerf, that left her worse than before. Karma mains want their main to be better, not stronger. That's why they are AGAINST the buffs and were AGAINST the nerfs before that. That number juggling does nothing to adress the issues, just tries to push them further away.
: Post this thread on reddit to get a lot of traction. I’ma actually surprise the Karma community has come together. It shows that we do care about the champion and more so than this Development team. Hopefully someone will look at it.
You mean the karmamains reddit or the LoL reddit? Because I did post it on the former...
Hibeki (NA)
: Early game she holds up as good with any other mage bottom, its when you get to mid game and mid lane that her Q starts to go off. A solid hit is guaranteed to get the detonation especially on an already cc'd target. Additionally, if you are on the aggressive, you can afford to give up your survivability. Your base shield and movement speed is enough to get out pretty much anything that isnt a lockdown and your link stops persistent threats. I'm not saying that karma shouldnt be viable. I just think that straight buffs is a horrible idea (As someone who hates playing with and against her). Honestly, another rework is in order, they didnt really get it right the first time.
> A solid hit is guaranteed to get the detonation especially on an already cc'd target. You can walk out of the zone without boots. It doesnt matter how "solid" the hit is. And then add tier2 boots, ms buffs and dashes into the mix. > I just think that straight buffs is a horrible idea (As someone who hates playing with and against her). Honestly, another rework is in order, they didnt really get it right the first time. Now I am convinced you didn't read my post at all. I am NOT in favour of buffing her, I am strictly talking about reworking certain aspects of her kit. In fact, the whole post is built upon me protesting against the shieldbuffs.
: [Here's the thumbnail of the post](https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/021/646/486/large/andrzej-dybowski-dybowski-karma.jpg?1572445462), for people like me who wanted to take a closer look to it
Darnit, for some reason I always forget that some people wanna know those kind of things. This picture is one of two made by the brilliant *__~~Andrzej Dybowski~~__* you can check him out [HERE](https://www.artstation.com/dybowski) And here's his second work on Karma. https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/021/792/856/large/andrzej-dybowski-dybowski-karma2.jpg?1572968445 He has other pieces of Irelia and Lissandra
Neamean (NA)
: Honestly I think they should just do the kayn route with her where she has a rhasst where she is battlemage/tank and a shadow assassin form where she is enchanter/artillery. But unlike Kayn she can stay in "base form" and be a jack of all trade.
How would you envision her to swap?
: Kind of a rant but, I don't feel like battle mage is a legitimate class in League nor should it be one because anyone who ends up fitting the category winds up being broken or useless. Ex: {{champion:84}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:517}} Even Swain and Sol are control mages when balanced.
Akali is an assassin, Sylas is a burstmage and there is no "control mage" type in leage. I am really confused as to what you are going for.
Tentaku (EUNE)
: Thing is, battlemage/enchanter identities are extremely conflicting - though it is not obvious at first sight. Enchanter weaknesses are being weak at 1v1, extremely squishy and providing almost no threat on their own. Battle Mage strengths are polar opposite of that - 1v1 beasts, hard to kill and biggest teamfighting threat on the team until lategame (or in some cases, biggest threat on the team period). Because properties of those classes "cancel" each other out, creating a hybrid between them leads to a mess - which is why both old and new {{champion:43}} iterations were always problematic. Now, it is probably not impossible to create a balancable kit that has properties of both those classes, it's just very hard. Because natural weaknesses of the playstyle are not achievable, it would require artificially "injecting" weaknesses into the kit, i.e. massive delays, hard to land skillshots, extremely poor early game etc.
A battlemage/enchanter would simply require her to EITHER make herself survivable or her ally. So she is either tough as a balttemage or squishy as an enchanter. Similarly, enchanting her allies OR dealing damage makes that work too. And in niche cases manage to do both, which would require a lot of skill tho (and by skill I mean awareness, planning and prediction). And lastly, Riot kind of called her a battlemage/enchanter already, but ADDED catcher, tank and artillery elements to it, for no good reasons.
Hibeki (NA)
: Mantra Q hits for 435 + 70 ap on impact and 350 + 60 ap on detonation, over 3x that amount. Yes, she uses ultfor it, but its up often enough at accessible at level 1 that it puts far too much pressure on the laner.
Okay, first of all, the RQ damage you listed already includes Q damage. The mantra damage is actually: 175 (+40%AP) & 360 (+60%AP) However, if you wanna talk about lvl1 mantra, it's only 25 & 35 damage respectively, in addition to an 80 damage Q, which puts the respectable base damage growth in perspective. The second explosion is handcrafted to ALWAYS allow ANY champion to walk out of it, even without boots, as long as they keep walking. So realistically it's usually a slightly more accessible 105 + (70%AP) damage burst every ~40s instead of a 80+(40%) damage poke. Compared to a Lux which can hit you for 70 (+70%AP) plus passive for 20 (+20%AP) the damage is actually rather similar. Lux requires an AA, but is on a 13s cooldown, a third of Karma RQ's cooldown. And don't even get me started on comparing Karma's full combo to the full combo of any other mage out there. It just doesn't hold up. So no, Karma's early game RQ is not THAT broken as you just pretended. Additionally, you seemingly just ignored that the bonus damage usually comes at the cost of her survivability, so she already has to choose between either. And if you had read my post you could've seen that I argue for an EASIER to dodge RQ (putting more skill expression on Karma AND her opponent).
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 6
Quick {{champion:43}} question: Is there a reason she still has tankscalings on her mamtra W? To me it seems to be the reason for her oppressive toplane nature if she is ever any good. You obviously nerfed her Q to keep her in check (i.e. unviable), which incidentally gutted Midlane Karma too. Wouldn't it have been better to make that RW scale better with AP instead of HP?
: As long as they figure it out before the start of the season. Due to the aforementioned nerfs (Q ratio by 20% and lack of klepto), not a single Karma lane is doing well (50% wr+). That's quite crazy especially since Riot is apparently pushing her to go support really hard, mentioning support karma would stay strong after the nerf and they are now buffing her E shield in 9.24. I mean, her winrate is 48% which for an "enchanter" is AWFUL - all the other enchanters are 52%+ and pretty steady through all elos. Riot you need to choose what you want Karma to be. Otherwise all her identities will suffer at once, and that's no fun for any one. I don't even remember the last time I saw a Karma in game...
They have no clue what to do with her. Didn't have one since season 3. In my latest post people seem to zero in on the Battlemage/Enchanter identity, which means she needs more ways of actually enchanting and dealing more consistent damage. Most likely at the cost of her CC, range and tankscalings.
: Don't like that there is no Enchanter/'catcher' option
Yeah, I am sorry, but that's because of 3 reasons: 1. Without multiple options polls, I had to fall back on this awkward solution 2. Adding all 2 subclass hybrids would've taken 21 options alone, with priorities (Artillery/Catcher or Catcher/Artillery) it would've been 42 3. It's usually better to combine different classes, not subclasses, as subclasses are more likely to be contradictory Personally I could see Burst/Artillery hybrids or Enchanter/Catcher hybrids, but I thought that deviating from her historical (mage) and current (support) main role would've not been a good idea. I appreciate the feedback tho! But I'd like to know even more; what would your enchanter/catcher option exactly entail? Nerfing damage/poke options and replacing them with more direct teambuffs and harder/more reliable CC? Like a stun-RQ, NeuroCat's W and all that jazz?
: I just want her (or any other mage that played as support ({{champion:63}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:143}} etc.)) to be viable in mid lane.
According to op.gg the following champions are played mid and support {{champion:3}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:518}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:45}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:101}} {{champion:26}} The only one of those, that has a 50+% winrate in both lanes, however, is Zilean.
Rioter Comments
: I am pretty upset with the Karma changes; First off, they always tell us how they wanted us to "experiment" with champions going into different lanes and trying out new and exciting builds. So we take her top. They said that her Q damage was too much, making her poke irrelevant in lane. They took out Kleptomancy so she is no longer viable top lane, because (at least for me) that was the build I took. Tank Karma was fun to shake up the meta a bit. Now she is forced to be just another shield mage? Her poke is barely worth it seeing as how short of a range her Q is. And trust me, it is deceivingly short. Now they "fix" her Q nerf by increasing her E potential? How is this a positive change? How does that put her back into the support role? It doesn't. Her W does have strong healing but you typically don't build tank Karma as a support. She has been turned into an enhanced shielder. Her range is still short, and some will complain that her W is too long, but she has to follow up into the thick of it to go off, otherwise she's waisting mana and opening herself up completely. I really hope Riot does something to actually enhance some of her gameplay. Maybe they should look into her W changes like they said they would earlier this year and dropped for whatever reason...
They dropped it, because the community reacted very negatively to it, mostly, because the W felt very charring to many Karma players. so it was shelfed. NeuroCat had to move to another project, as was planned before and nobody dared to pick Karma up after that.
: I like the twin dragon idea and I know how it can be used. Her basic attack stays the same but twin dragons is used for Q , W and E. Q is she still shoots energy but in the form of the dragons. Her W twin dragons beam like it is now just with the new design. Her E is a shield but with the dragons symbol.
I mean, yeah, updating her visuals would be nice, but she still needs help in the gameplay part of her identity too.
: But i like being able to lifesteal on an enemy karma.
: Karma shouldn't have any increase in her Q damage, mantra or not, if she needs more damage while staying balanced. It is both an unsatisfying spell to use and one of the most annoying and frustrating short cooldowned bursts in the whole game. If Karma NEEDS more damage to survive outside of support, don't buff Q; give her another/different source of damage with low base with privileged ap scaling
Her Q had comparable damage to Lux Q, now it has a 40% scaling, while Lux has a 70% scaling. I get why some people hate RQ, but normal Q seemed to be an absotely basic and unproblematic spell to me? Also, it's not about BUFFING normal Q, it was fine. It's about reverting to pre 9.19 levels. Karma's whole kit has pretty low damage overall, because she only has 2 damage spells (and mantra on one), while most mages have at least 3 damage spells and a damage passive. This of course made single abilities seem strong, while overall she wasn't. Now even her spells on their own are weak... > give her another/different source of damage with low base with privileged ap scaling Well, if you read my post... I am arguing in favour of that too?
: I was gone from league when that happened, but it doesn't really detract from my statement. Riot *has* made efforts to to address her and they seem to back off every time. If memory serves, there was an instance before NC (and dev corner) that also got some attention and was shut down. And there may well be another attempt in the future. My point isn't that they *shouldn't* address her, it's that they are not incentivized to do so. The cost benefit analysis for anything short of divine inspiration just makes her PR nightmare.
Well, you have a point. But that's the reason why I try to get the community to agree on some things, consequently reducing any risk to Riot. I.e. I try to work into their risk-reward analysis.
wildfox9T (EUW)
: >If CCd she dies quickly. But I get what you mean not every mid laner can burst through her heal and shields,also her movement speed buff makes her hard to hit with skillshots and she can run under her tower really fast of course i'm looking at karma when she was viable mid,now she kinda sucks everywhere but i'm referring to her kit not her balance,when she's in meta she can be a pain to deal with >If you read my post you could see that I want her RQ to be easier to dodge at max range, so she either has to come closer or you have an easier time escaping her burst. actually i read it all,but i think if you make it like lux's E even if you slow her projectile it would still be too hard to dodge and even more toxic since you can't hide from it,have you considered that she have her ult before the enemy laner can even think about buying some boots? in order to make it balanced you'd have to either nerf her RQ base damage really hard or make it so slow that after your opponent buy his boots he could drink a coffee,read a journal and then dodge it,which i don't think it would be great for karma in both cases instead i really liked your idea of shifting some of her offensive power on other abilities,it would make her less binary and easier to balance,yet if you overdo you make her a point click oneshoting machine like old {{champion:1}} or {{champion:90}} i think the best option is giving her some sort of rework,even because as someone pointed out (i don't remember if it was you) her kit doesn't really fit her character
> of course i'm looking at karma when she was viable mid,now she kinda sucks everywhere but i'm referring to her kit not her balance,when she's in meta she can be a pain to deal with Aren't most viable champions a pain to deal with when strong? Like, some just burst you down, others never let you get close, others survive you every time. What I am trying to ask you is... what exactly makes her different to you in that regard? That she doesn't die as easily as you want her to? PS: What champions do you usually play into her? > actually i read it all,but i think if you make it like lux's E even if you slow her projectile it would still be too hard to dodge and even more toxic since you can't hide from it Again, the idea is to force her to move closer to increase her chances of hitting it, making her more likely to get into counter range. As the ability works right now (explosion at max range) it encourages Karma to stay at max range all the time, which is probably what makes her so frustrating. Second, if it doesn't explode on collision, but only in the targetted area, you can dodge TOWARDS Karma, giving you more options. And lastly, with a targetted area the zone wouldn't spawn centered on the hit target, which means whether you can escape the second explosion doesn't depend on your boots alone, but on both your and Karma's skill. I have discussed that idea for roughly 2 years now and the best counter argument anyone has ever mustered against it was NeuroCat herself, as she claimed that it changes the aiming paradigm for it, which might confuse some people at first. I consider it a weak counter, but it's true. But then again, there's {{champion:102}} Q... > or make it so slow that after your opponent buy his boots he could drink a coffee,read a journal and then dodge it, Well, then Karma has to walk up a little bit. Or predict better. Either way it increases counterplay and skill expression. > i think the best option is giving her some sort of rework,even because as someone pointed out (i don't remember if it was you) her kit doesn't really fit her character Well, I have been asking for a proper rework for quite some time, could've been me, idk. I just feel she is not truly fulfilled as either weilder of twin dragons or the epitome of karma (small k). Like Irelia wasn't really a psi-blade weilder before either. But I am glad we have you on board with a rework idea. If you have any ideas or suggestions yourself, I'd love to hear them!
: > [{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gUPtai8E,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-12T02:40:45.670+0000) > > Nothing probably. And from their standpoint, that's probably the right decision. > Riot Shot themselves in the foot with Karma. The relaunch split her fan-base between new and old. The following mini-rework split her fan-base *again* into 3 - one for each build. Any core changes they make to her at this point will piss off 3/4 (or more) of her fan-base. Her win rate may not be perfect, but she not in a bad spot and nothing is overbearingly broken. Keeping her net-neutral state is the best thing they can do from a PR standpoint (Not causing more bad press than they already have) and a resource standpoint (investing into more problematic champions). > > I would love to see her addressed. I would love even more to see Old Karma revived. But I don't see where Riot as *any* reasonable incentive to do either.
I can easily get behind that cynicism, but please explain how and why they wanted NeuroCat to work on her?
wildfox9T (EUW)
: my only problem with karma mid is that she's SO uninteractive when she's in meta you can't engage her or burst her down because all her defensive tools,and she outrade you and push you under your tower constantly with her spam of Qs and her RQ which is almost impossible to dodge if you are not behind some minions honestly i'd be fine with her being viable mid,but only if it means she behave like (almost) any other mage instead of a safe and uninteractive pick
Karma only has soft/unreliable CC and no dashes. If CCd she dies quickly. But I get what you mean > and her RQ which is almost impossible to dodge if you are not behind some minions If you read my post you could see that I want her RQ to be easier to dodge at max range, so she either has to come closer or you have an easier time escaping her burst.
Flemman (EUW)
: Till they finally take a look at Iceborn gauntlet effectiveness on ranged champion, I don't think they can fix Karma tank top (and other ranged user too) AA permaslow from range should only be a thing on ashe
They could simply change her RW so that it doesn't profit massively from building tanky, but instead from building AP or heal items. It's that easy. If she isn't motivated to stack defensive stats and gets more reasons to build AP, Tank Karma dies.
Morbys (NA)
: Should read the new patch notes, they are nerfing her dmg specifically to put her in support role only.
No, I get that, they will prioritize the role the think is healthiest for any given champion. But they obviously also WANT champions that are hybrids of some sort. For Karma this should be Mage/support, and they can justifiably hate her Tank identity, but they just fucked that up. They nerfed Karma's ratios (which Mid needs) and left her bases the same (which Tank Karma needs). And to this day they have changed nearly EVERY aspect of her kit, but in over 6 years they have refused to adress the problems the RW scaling causes, which could efficiently kill Tank Karma, while even HELPING their dear support Karma.
Emo Twink (OCE)
: I honestly feel like how Lux or Senna is played at the moment is how Karma should be.
Flex pick for at least 2 roles, having relevant damage throughout the game? I think that should easily be doable.
Hibeki (NA)
: The thing I hate most about karma is the fact that her Q hits disgustingly hard and shes impossible to reliably kill. Ditch one of those features, and I'd be far more open to see her relevant again.
Her Q currently deals 80-260 (+40%AP) magic damage. Compared to a Lux Q, which is 70-250 (+70%AP) Or Syndra's Q, which is 70-230 (+65%AP) It's quite obvious that she has high base damages, but with the current scaling, you can't claim it's a lot of damge overall. You also have to keep in mind, that she has fewer individual damage sources than those other two (she has literally only 2.33 damage abilities, while those two have 4) I also see Karma die all the time, once she is CC'd she falls really quickly? I get that her RW can be quite stupid at times, but she gives up most of her damage for it.
: To help in this convo, one should use Leblanc as an example. At the moment, all of LeBlanc's ult options provide substantial damage, its obvious Q(ult) gives the most damage but requires the proc, W(ult) is the most mobile but least damage, and E(ult) is very nice damage but is a skillshot and delayed and typically requires your initial E to have landed. All great options and LeBlanc players very rarely always use the same empowered ability every single time. Its not that hard to do something similar to Karma
That's a very good argument, thank you!
PzyXo (EUW)
: Yasuo mains are more chill than Karma mains in boards
The problem was that you ignored the content of the topic and just came in to argue against Karma, based on things that were factually wrong. > Let's be Honest, if Karma E R Q your ass as a squishy boi you're dead. Isn't that little bit OP? RQ deals 435 + 70% AP, which would require ~2000AP to oneshot anyone. It's also roughly Syndra's MINIMUM damage on her ultimate. Quite frankly, Karma's whole combo deals comparable damage to most mages. Lux and Zyra easily deal more, for example. > Didn't I say E R Q? The E stuns Here you apparantly confused E with W and you can't tell the difference between a root and a stun. > the one that makes a line between Karma and the enemy which stuns you for 8 hours straight Here you ignored someone trying to tell you that she has no stun, and ignored me telling you that the W roots for 1.4s, while Morgana has a Q that roots for 3.0s But instead of admitting your mistakes and continuing the conversation, you left and rant about us in a new thread? Doesn't feel like you actually wanted a conversation with us...
Anu3isII (EUNE)
: They dug their own grave in the first place by not addressing her issues for years. I'm glad whenever I see them working on her, but when they use those excuses as if it wasn't their fault in the first place for creating such a divided playerbase, I get really mad. However, considering her current state, both lore and gameplay wise, it is clear that there is no turning back for her. I still have my times where I play her almost continuously, but I get more and more burn out with her. She will still be a default pick for me when I want Utility as a Solo Laner, but I think I will slowly switch to other champions and wait for a real rework. Overall, I'm happy I still see you posting and trying to find ways to fix her. I have been lurking boards for a long time (idk how many years have even passed since I first saw your posts about Karma's first rework) and I was glad to see a few other Karma players sharing my concerns and ideas. I hope that when they will finally decide to rework her again, they will invite you, like Malicious Metal, to play test her and give your opinion. Until then I guess we will wait and see.
To me it appears like they made three mistakes: 1. Conducting a VGU without actually having a team, money or time dedicated for it 2. Ignoring the initial (and continuous) negative feedback as outliers. 3. "Improving" Karma without ever settling on a true gameplay identity. Now it's virtually impossible to make up for their past mistakes, because they stack rather unfavourably. As I said before, they are in a lose lose situation and thus shelf her, which is the low risk-low reward option. I'd love to help them out and I am glad I can work for you a bit. One day or another I will get their attention again.
: Meddler was the reason why she wasn't given enough time, resources and do what she wanted to do. She went to Meddler asking for more time and he said no. Shortly after Naomi was moved to the TFT team to do some work over there and has been over there since. It's amazing to see where these Developer's cares and alliances really lie. Meddler is the same Developer who has used every excuse in the book to not do work on Karma as well as admit multiple times that she desperately needs work . . . . to continue on the excuse trend and work on the same things every single year. There is a reason why no one likes a one sided Development team that actually ignores the problems they created.
Well, it's not that I necessarily disagree, I just don't think villifying Meddler will help in either the short nor longrun.
Voluug13 (NA)
: I think the underlying issue is that they obviously dont want to work much on Karma because they know that the rework was, at the end of the day, a design failure on all ends, they just dont want to admit it. So they are waiting for 2027 for Karma's turn at another rework so they dont have to use resources on a hero that is disjoined and possibly broken at a core level. Almost every proposed deep change to Karma has been met with outright disgust by the community because its often support/LCS-centered (lol at the CDR tether). If anything? I think that RE should be nerfed because its what, at the end of the day, what is holding Karma back at anything else that isnt a shieldbot. Klepto is dead, so top Karma shouldnt even be a thing now. Any potential changes could be to move around all the effects that Karma has, like moving the MS boost away from E/RE so that it can have a power budget back.
Interestingly enough, Meddler took Karma as an example a few weeks ago when talking about the dangers of reworking champions, because - as he argued - Karma has 3 fanbases now, which makes working on her really difficult. Didn't like that CDR tether either, but generally NC was still the best that happened to Karma. Because she honestly cared and stopped when we didn't like something.
Voluug13 (NA)
: Its clear that this person is just throwing ''braindead'' as a buzzword.
I mean, some people actually think that 3.5 -5.10 Karma's decision making was actually worse. Ricklessabandon for example. Which blows my brains out tbh.
Saelon (NA)
: They only want Karma to cast her E. Aphelios UI is the first step to make Karma only have two abilities, her shield and mantra shield. If they actually cared about Karma or her playerbase then they would rework her again, this rework was such a giant failure and it is clear that they have absolutely no intention to fix their mistake
If only they had given NC more time and ressources, or a chance to build on her first attempt. She was the first and only to actually care for Karma and her community. {{sticker:zombie-nunu-tears}}
: I feel like people like playing her as a solo laner than a support. That's what the champion balance should reflect
On the boards, the voices of sololaners are stronger, because the duolane is usually catered too. I think there's two strong fanbases for both sides of her. Personally, I like playing champions that can do either, so I can switch to carrying when my ADC sucks.
: I'm speaking for the people, no one likes playing against mid or top karma and it's zzzzzzz to watch, so they don't want it in pro play. It's effectively Ryze except even worse in terms of non-interactivity and its safer.
Tell _"the people"_ I am trying to get Karma fixed, so they never have to worry about that again. She _should_ be more exiting to face, play and watch. I agree with you on that. But instead of being a nay-sayer I am actually trying to do something about it. Join the cause or leave and be grumpy in your corner.
: True, and then pairing RE with an Ardent Censer would be an absolute nightmare. Mostly just spitballing, but I would love a new passive that was more proactive or intuitive to her design or gameplay
I frequently try coming up with some, it ain't easy. Something dualistic involving the fabled twin dragons seems to be favoured.
CyberPhobic (EUNE)
: Keep Your fucking champion Out of my toplane
Karma has been in the game since february 2011 Her most common role for the first 2 years? Toplane. Chances are she had been in "your" toplane before you started playing LoL.
: > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GeIFeH5a,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-04T19:44:06.469+0000) > > I too want shieldbomb back, but I have troubles understanding your proposition. What is a tether bomb? Probably making W explode on both Karma and her opponent in an extra AoE hit Basically shield bomb but much, much more contained and probably easier to balance
Oh. That's what he meant. W root = explosion, RW root = big explosion. I don't think that's something I would go for in the League of Dashes, but thank you for translating!
Saezio (EUNE)
: How do you get hit by the 2nd part of RQ? Just walking lets you get out of it. And no it will never do 100% of your HP. EVER.
Weeeeell, I did the math. Max lvl RQ deals 435 + 70%AP upon impact. With a full build (Rabadon, Morellos, Liandry's, Ludens, Void and Sorc boots) you have ~600AP and 30Mpen. That's 840 damage to someone without MR items, which... truly can never kill anyone. That's also roughly Syndra R's _minimum_ damage btw. If they happen to be stupid enough to not walk casually out of the zone, they take an additional (350+60%AP=) 710 damage, which - in combination with Luden's and runes might come close to oneshotting maybe a caster without HP & MR items that's also 2 levels below you. So I wouldn't say impossible, but a niche case that could happen every couple hundred games or so. Which probably proves your point.
: >Yes to an extent. However, Baron and Dragon both spawn rather frequently now, meaning turtling ain't exactly the best move ever. You could say this about any enchanter support. Janna Nami Soraka? > Each Mantra should offer something for damage, surviability and Utility/support, instead of being separated (RQ is for damage, RW fo surviability and RE for Utility). So that way it doesnt matter what she chooses and is overtuned no matter what she does making her even more of a braindead champ.
> You could say this about any enchanter support. Janna Nami Soraka? First of all, I don't know what you just quoted. Second, yes, **Soraka** was braindead. That's why they forced her to _interact_ or literally slowly kill herself. **Janna** is constantly debated about for exactly this reason. Sit back, help disengage, do nothing else and win lane/game. **Nami** is more proactive, interactive and probably one of the fairest champions in the game. And now, that I said this: Why do you think of Karma only or MAINLY as an enchanter? Because her kit isn't that of an enchanter at all. She has ONE ability that enhances allies. Her passive doesn't even interact with it. > So that way it doesnt matter what she chooses and is overtuned no matter what she does making her even more of a braindead champ. Having three very similar choices is miles better than having no choice at all. Besides, the higher you climb, the more important nuances get. And lastly, I debate you any day of the week, that Karma was both more interesting and more healthy, when she still had damage on all mantra options. Karma's who ALWAYS mantra'd Q for damage was the single best way to spot a noob Karma.
Pyrosan (NA)
: she's being buffed next patch look at mark yetter on twitter
The buff her shield tho and leave her Q (and thus midlane Karma) in the gutter?
: Karma's Q is the most boring ability. I can't believe she lost her duality theme (specifically shield bombs) for this generic fireball spell. I've always called her "Generic Fireball Mage" since her rework. Their excuse back then was that noone knew what Karma does, meanwhile Aphelios is being released.
The funny thing is, Q is still miles better than W {{sticker:zombie-nunu-bummed}}
alekzu (EUW)
: How long are we going to keep repeating the same things? I don't think that Riot hates Karma but I don't think that they care either. No one can hit me with the "they care because she wouldn't be getting a buff". The only reason she is getting a buff is because she is getting a skin and that is what Riot cares about. Not Karma. Not her theme. Not her issues. These can be pushed aside until one day a Rioter decides that he/she likes Karma and maaaaaybe he can squeeze a little bit of his/her free time and do some work on her. But still, I really hope that Riot will see our concerns and they will think about it.
Working on Karma is exhausting and risky. The fanbase is so fucked you walk a very thin line if you try to please everyone. And maybe that line ends half way there. I get why other champions get prioritized. They are safer ways of spending your time and less likely to cause someone to rage at you. Which is already tough for other champs, but Karma with her 3 fanbases and 3 lanes is... daunting. I am not surprised nobody took over where NeuroCat left off. I am simpy sad.
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SilverSquid

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