EdgeLady (NA)
: Wow thanks for this Taco; we've gotta keep tabs on this thread! Any chance you can edit {{champion:432}} in there, by the way? I know we don't know much about him yet but he's definitely another pivotal cog in the celestial machine.
> Any chance you can edit {{champion:432}} in there, by the way? I know we don't know much about him yet but he's definitely another pivotal cog in the celestial machine. I have a small tidbit, perhaps not too noticeable about Bard, although it's more of an off-hand theory and as such not listed in the final TL;DR section. This one in specific: > And what if a being could somehow channel their essence via a celestial body meant to be the link between all dimensions, Runeterra itself? Perhaps that could give birth to a certain Cosmic Vagabond? The original document I posted on the discord had another theory on Bard's origins: that he could be a spirit equivalent to Celestials, as if a "thought" for them. This was mostly due to how much he blurs the line between Spirit and Celestial Concept (given information on Celestials as a whole is so hazy). He could also just be a very powerful Wanderer.
Craxsian (EUW)
: Hi, Mr Taco. Your work is pretty detailed, and i will do my best to finish it. Anyway, I have a Discord's Spanish server focused on League of Legends lore, and I am really interesed in joining me yours. Our little community is always paying attention in Reddit, NA boards or Twitter looking for new information about the lore, but I think that it will be very educational. You can send the invitation by email or Twitter, as you prefer ^^
That won't be necessary, I think. As far as I'm aware, both in terms of Boards rules and the Discord server's, I can post the invite link directly [here](https://discordapp.com/invite/wxRnKet).
: Or Nagakebrous could just be some over-confident minor god that is lying to everyone. Thats always a possibility
Like Terozu said, Nagakabouros doesn't really "lie to everyone", partially because it doesn't really seem to speak with anyone to begin with and partially because our info on it does come from posts on the boards and out-of-universe sources. It is a major tenet of Illaoi's religion that she cannot fully understand her deity but she tries anyhow. That is her burden. For a few sources on what Nagakabouros is and how Illaoi interprets its will look look towards the following posts: [1](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/icewate2?comment=00060000) [2](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/gGMAFgfs?comment=00050000) [3](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/gGMAFgfs?comment=00020000) [4](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/icewate2?comment=00000000000100120000). The important takeaway is that Nagakabouros never demanded worship and a following, it never proclaimed its power or its divinity. Buhru simply learned about it somehow and made it one of their deities. It may not even know Buhru and its people in particular exist.
  Rioter Comments
905 (EUNE)
: Criticism of Mount Targon
> We have aspect of Moon, Sun, War, Protector, Twilight and now Justice. What next? An aspect of Waffles? Or aspect of chocolate Mooncake? Well there is also a rumored Aspect of the Wanderer. > You get the idea. Just create a random character, say that he/she climbed the mountain and received superpowers.... aaaaand that's pretty much it. At the very beginning when the only two aspects were Leona and Diana, this whole idea was exciting and fresh, but now when it turned out that Targon is really all about climbing to the rock and get superpowers from some being.... it feels dull. The tone and theme of Mount Targon is that it is a gateway to another plane, a plane with entities that cannot directly operate within the mortal world without significant sacrifice and, as such, choose worthy vessels (and emphasis on worthiness, climbing the mountain is a common thing but not universal to every Aspect, check Zoe) to channel their power. To complain that Aspects follow predictable rules is odd. It'd be like saying "why does every Ascended have to be involved with the sun disc somehow". > Also, there is no inner depth to the place itself, here is what I mean. > Freljord - one one hand we have this icy, clishe Nordic place, but on the other hand we this tribal inner conflict between Ashe, Seju + ancient gods and ice witches. > > Ionia - one one hand we have this clishe asian culture place, but as the story progresses we see that there much more fractions in there, as we have the harmony ninjas of Shen, and their counterparts in form of Zed's clan. We have characters like Karma, but also others like Irelia and Syndra. + conflict with Vastaya etc. > > Demacia - kingdom of heroes, but we also have that inner conflict of racism towards the mages. > > What I'm trying to point out here is that except their main theme, all places of League have also their inner conflicts that resonate on the whole Runeterra. > Targon is binary. We have this Solari and Lunari but we cant really see the conflict, because Riot writers don't intend expand on that interesting idea for some reason, which is a mistake in my opinion. You have a point that there we have few details about the people of Mount Targon and their own struggles compared to some other regions but also note that it is meant to be **the** otherworldly region and that just because we haven't seen it explored now doesn't mean Riot won't explore it at some point. And, to add another tidbit, celestial creatures constantly fall from the top of the mountain, and the Rakkor hold them off each passing day. > Also it is said Targonians managed to have control over Aurelion Sol.... why haven't they ever tried to conquer the Runterra? Targon is basically full of demi-gods, why aren't they trying to take control over the world of League. No one would stop them, they would be too powerful to stop. Could someone explain that already? The answer is in Aurelion Sol's own color story, *Twin Dawns*: > They are so scattered across the globe and grasp so blindly for any sort of understanding that it's no surprise they've been conquered and don't even comprehend their predicament. They've already been conquered. Targon, as in the celestials, isn't some mortal empire, they don't need to have banners glorifying them, their form of conquest is one of control and they have been involved with various major events in the course of history. Their presence in the world is only as dominating as they need it to be for humanity and any other race to not blow it up since Runeterra seems valuable to them. And the people living in Mount Targon aren't really connected to the celestials nor do they have any say in what the Aspects do. Also, regarding the "why not just bring Aurelion" point: from the same story, we know Targon's leash on Sol is significantly weaker in Runeterra. It is there that he was trapped and it is there where he can defy Targorian control the most. Bit by bit, he's been getting free, and now he's coming back to Runeterra to complete his rebellion. Targon, to some extent, knows this. They will not bring him to Runeterra and give him the chance to sabotage their plans without very good reason. Twin Dawns was probably the last time Sol was in Runeterra since I can't imagine Targon would let him back unless their full attention was placed on him at all times. > Also why is Taric a Targonian, if he is 100% Demacian that just climbed the rock, while Kayle is Demacian, but she comes from Targon. She just made the village that is called today a Demacia. A good point about Kayle being positioned as Demacian but the two sisters had most of their story centered on Demacia and their impact on mortal culture, Taric is all about serving the edict of the Protector now and in that sense his immediate future will probably lead him away from Demacia and their struggles. I agree, however, that there is an inconsistency.
Don Lupus (EUW)
: I like to think about this in a way that Terry Pratchett established in his discworld-novels: Gods start as small, cosmic entitys swarming the astral plane. Once they find believers, they grow stronger. In order to gain followers, a yet small god must attach himself to something people will be ready to believe in. They feast of belief and the bigger the following, the bigger the god. Nagakabouros is a god to sailors, fishermen and pirates, so she established this sea-driven-persona around being in flow etc. She's the personification of both traits that a sailor should have (be strong, rooted in the moment, go with the flow of the ocean etc.) and characteristics of the sea. The sea is a pretty good base for a god, as the people who believe in Naga are constantly around/on it and witness it's power. By assuming that the sea's power is Naga and praying to her, the goddess grew extremely big. However, she's not "the" goddess, she just managed to establish a big following. She uses a prophet - Illaoi - to spread the Nagakabouros-cult and gain more believers. Because if people would stop to care about Naga, her power would shrink again. She relies on all those different perceptions, names, myths etc. the people of Bilgewater have about her in order to stay alive. If she really was that much of a superhuman, powerful being, I doubt she would care that much about how people think of her. But she actively helps Illaoi by using her idol as a vessel amd communicating with her. So she is obviously interested in the crazy-cult-lady doing her job.
The way Discworld Gods function is a lot closer to the spirit gods (mentioned in the OP) of this setting. Faith has shaped, and possibly birthed, entities like Ornn or Kindred (or a lesser example, Janna) in the spirit realm. But Nagakabouros has been stated to be more than a spirit god. Indeed, just a few days ago Illaoi's lead writer called it a god as opposed to the other "demigods". It does not speak to Illaoi directly, Illaoi doesn't know what it wants and understands that. She [(not the idol, to be clear, that's just a focus)](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/Go5ya3eE?comment=00020000) can channel Nagakabouros' power but she doesn't understand it (Aurelion himself even says as much). Illaoi and her religion simply try to do the best they can with the limited knowledge they have of their mostly absent (but undoubtedly real) deity. [For some sources:](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/gGMAFgfs-why-is-nagakaborous-concerned-with-humans?comment=0005000000000000) > The more powerful a being is, the harder it is: to understand, to be worthy of its intention, or to communicate with. Probably naga is more powerful than the Volibear or Ornn (because a god > a demi-god) but which is easier to contact? which is more likely to come to your add? > "Is what I'm doing god's will?" Is something she struggles with. That is her test of faith. She absolutely knows her god exists (in a way we cant). But is she doing what it wants? Is she serving its will? [And from the same thread:](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/gGMAFgfs?comment=00020000) > Now Illaoi’s faith assumes all “life” serves some unknowable plan — thus we all are instruments of nagakabouros moving the universe towards some greater destiny. Thus a worthy, righteous, and just life to her is one that embraces life itself. Accepting and pursuing all of its messy mixture of ambitions, loves, feelings, and chaos. Now, is she and her faith correct about what Nagkabouros wants? who knows? That is where faith is required. [And:](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/icewate2?comment=00060000) > That is something her faith must bear. > Nagakabouros doesn't give out bibles, or hard rules. It demands you to be self aware, emotionally present, and iron willed. Her faith requires you to approach you're own subconcious with simultaneous questioning doubt and total certainty. [Or:](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/icewate2?comment=00000000000100120000) > Illaoi knows, she can not comprehend her god or it's plan. So she and her religion are attempting to serve and understand a small portion of that god idea. > She is aware that Nagakabouros is a mental construct based on human's limited perception and intellect -- but it is an attempt to illustrate a greater truth (See Brahma vs Para Brahman for an example of this.)
zounet (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=TacoBrain,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=LE19ntyX,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-22T18:03:27.639+0000) > > Waaaarghbobo, lead writer on Illaoi, has spoken about Nagakabouros on a few occasions here and there and, while he hasn't given any clear answers (indeed, I would say that Nagakabouros being something that the human mind can only ever perceive a fragment of is part of its intended mystique) it does paint a semblance of a metaphysical picture, as it were. > > Nagakabouros seems associated with life and with living beings and with the cycle of life and death (and therefore souls). It is said to transcend dimensions and that to destroy it one would need to destroy the universe. > > I see Nagakabouros as akin to time or space except, where time and space do not necessarily translate to the other planes of existence (spirit and celestial), Nagakabouros does. In our world, we have four fundamental interactions. In the IP, we have (at least) one more if that makes sense, it is Nagakabouros which seems to be the cycle of life in all its entirety (or maybe, the tendency for life to emerge and become sapient and feeling as if some higher evolutionary/creative calling in the setting). > > Illaoi's religion believes Nagakabouros has a plan for the universe and that following one's passions advances that plan. They may yet be proven right. Or maybe, Nagakabouros' nature is so all-encompassing that it can't even properly perceive (or if it can, does not necessarily care for) mortal life. Is a person aware of each and every bacteria living in their guts? > > I do not think Nagakabouros is a spirit god. It does not appear to be a product of human faith or myth nor does it seem significantly shaped by worship even if its connection to the spirit realm seems undeniable. Buhru's culture and religion may, however, "color" how they channel its power hence the watery tentacles vibe. It is not necessarily what Naga is (if it even "is" in a physical sense, I imagine it exists in all things as a fundamental tendency of creation). It doesn't even have to be sentient in any way that humanity can fathom because the importance of Illaoi's god is not in itself but in how Illaoi (and the people of Buhru) draw and interpret it. > > With that said, Buhru worship could have potentially birthed a spirit that reflects their own attempts at describing their deity, a "fake" Nagakabouros born of human thought. Always an exciting possibility. > > So yes, out of the two options provided the second seems the most apt. Except, whereas Aurelion Sol (and possibly his "kin") seems to be a purely physical (but extraordinarily powerful) entity (some things may always change), Nagakabouros is a metaphysical power. It is more a pure force of nature than a human construct or a single powerful individual entity or an anthropomorphic personification. It is intertwined with reality in every single one of its magical facets. (Note that this is my own attempt at describing it. Like I said earlier, there are no right answers yet, if ever.) > > Aurelion Sol did not create life, to be clear, although he did enable the conditions for at least some life to emerge. Odds are, Aurelion Sol himself is not aware of how Runeterra truly came to be by the world rune using celestials that crafted it and/or why they would do such a thing (although the planet is now of great interest to him since Targon's hold on him is weakened there). Could they have chosen a different star to do so or is there something special about the sun and/or Aurelion's own method of forging stars? That's a good question. > > A few sources and good posts on Nagakabouros, [here:](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/icewate2?comment=000000000001) > > > [Here:](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/icewate2?comment=00000000000100120000) > > [And:](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/8una0m/were_the_team_that_updated_aatrox_ask_us_anything/e1gy7uj/?context=3) sorry I think you didnt understand my last sentence: I meant that it was nagakabouros who created all lives and was the god of souls
Ah, I misunderstood it. I thought you meant that ASol had created (mortal) life. I don't think Nagakabouros necessarily created life in an intentional way but, and this is headcanon and not something you should hold as any type of official bit of info, I believe it represents the tendency for life and sapience to emerge and grow. A bit like entropy in our own universe only much more focused on the gradual birth and development of life and souls. I hope you got something useful out of the post, still.
zounet (EUW)
: what is nagakabouros?
Waaaarghbobo, lead writer on Illaoi, has spoken about Nagakabouros on a few occasions here and there and, while he hasn't given any clear answers (indeed, I would say that Nagakabouros being something that the human mind can only ever perceive a fragment of is part of its intended mystique) it does paint a semblance of a metaphysical picture, as it were. Nagakabouros seems associated with life and with living beings and with the cycle of life and death (and therefore souls). It is said to transcend dimensions and that to destroy it one would need to destroy the universe. I see Nagakabouros as akin to time or space except, where time and space do not necessarily translate to the other planes of existence (spirit and celestial), Nagakabouros does. In our world, we have four fundamental interactions. In the IP, we have (at least) one more if that makes sense, it is Nagakabouros which seems to be the cycle of life in all its entirety (or maybe, the tendency for life to emerge and become sapient and feeling as if some higher evolutionary/creative calling in the setting). Illaoi's religion believes Nagakabouros has a plan for the universe and that following one's passions advances that plan. They may yet be proven right. Or maybe, Nagakabouros' nature is so all-encompassing that it can't even properly perceive (or if it can, does not necessarily care for) mortal life. Is a person aware of each and every bacteria living in their guts? I do not think Nagakabouros is a spirit god. It does not appear to be a product of human faith or myth nor does it seem significantly shaped by worship even if its connection to the spirit realm seems undeniable. Buhru's culture and religion may, however, "color" how they channel its power hence the watery tentacles vibe. It is not necessarily what Naga is (if it even "is" in a physical sense, I imagine it exists in all things as a fundamental tendency of creation). It doesn't even have to be sentient in any way that humanity can fathom because the importance of Illaoi's god is not in itself but in how Illaoi (and the people of Buhru) draw and interpret it. With that said, Buhru worship could have potentially birthed a spirit that reflects their own attempts at describing their deity, a "fake" Nagakabouros born of human thought. Always an exciting possibility. So yes, out of the two options provided the second seems the most apt. Except, whereas Aurelion Sol (and possibly his "kin") seems to be a purely physical (but extraordinarily powerful) entity (some things may always change), Nagakabouros is a metaphysical power. It is more a pure force of nature than a human construct or a single powerful individual entity or an anthropomorphic personification. It is intertwined with reality in every single one of its magical facets. (Note that this is my own attempt at describing it. Like I said earlier, there are no right answers yet, if ever.) > or it is a stronger cosmic entity than aurelion sol who created life. Aurelion Sol did not create life, to be clear, although he did enable the conditions for at least some life to emerge. Odds are, Aurelion Sol himself is not aware of how Runeterra truly came to be by the world rune using celestials that crafted it and/or why they would do such a thing (although the planet is now of great interest to him since Targon's hold on him is weakened there). Could they have chosen a different star to do so or is there something special about the sun and/or Aurelion's own method of forging stars? That's a good question. A few sources and good posts on Nagakabouros, [here:](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/icewate2?comment=000000000001) > On Nagakabouros faith: > > "A god's appearance is limited only by those observing it" -Illaoi > > Illaoi's power: > Illaoi is powerful because she is personally capable of serving her god--- that's actually a rare gift. That puts her on the same level as Moses at the very least. Channeling her god's power (not generating it) is extremely difficult. > > (...) > > RE Aol Sol vs- Nagakabouros: > > Aol Sol is, at best, a demi-god-- he serves only one reality and exists on only one realm. > He mocks humans because they are as small to him as mites to us. > BUT comparing him to Nagakabouros is like comparing a dung beetle to the theory of relativity. > He's just pointing out he has a better view in the rug. [Here:](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/icewate2?comment=00000000000100120000) > AOL SOL: > Here's the thing: > Aol Sol made stars. Check. > Aol Sol made a bunch of stars. Check. > Aol Sol is super old. Check. > Aol Sol is the only dragon. Nope. > Dragons are Gods. Meh. (see below) > > Aol Sol does not reflect a universal reality or truth. > Aol Sol does not exist or travel between planes. > Aol Sol can be trapped, contained, and controlled. > Aol Sol can die in some ways. (Though does not age) > > Ultimately he is "A True Dragon." An extremely powerful being. Is that a type of god? Meh... > The definition of a god is pretty flexible (based on different cultural norms) So he could be depending on your point of view. > He is super-powerful. > He has been worshipped as a god. > > NAGA: > Illaoi's god is not the only god. (See above: God is a tricky term). > Nagakabouros is not even the only god worshipped in Buhru (though it is the most popular on that island). > Illaoi's religion is about life serving the universe. But Nagakabouros is see as bigger than that goal. > Illaoi knows, she can not comprehend her god or it's plan. So she and her religion are attempting to serve and understand a small portion of that god idea. > She is aware that Nagakabouros is a mental construct based on human's limited perception and intellect -- but it is an attempt to illustrate a greater truth (See Brahma vs Para Brahman for an example of this.) > > I did a lot of research on pre-christian faiths and Hinduism when creating this religion. Our real world pantheistic religions do not (and did not) believe in individual gods in a childlike way. It was/is a very philosophically complex view of the universe, where elements, and ideas are broken down and given constructs to hold greater concepts. Those constructs exist as dualities == both a truth and as mere symbol of a higher truth. (Thus the signifier is viewed with equal import as the signified) > Using those definitions (which is how Illaoi sees the world). A god is not simply "a being of a particular power level" it the reflection of an abstract truth. [And:](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/8una0m/were_the_team_that_updated_aatrox_ask_us_anything/e1gy7uj/?context=3) > It's unlikely he could defeat Nagakabouros, he would need to end the universe.
: > [{quoted}](name=TacoBrain,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=pGh0gkno,comment-id=000300000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-02-28T15:37:08.298+0000) > > They're one and the same. ASol is enslaved by the Aspects. [Targon is just a term for the collective group of Aspects. ](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/cfEdVAJd-welcome-to-the-aurelion-sol-qa?comment=008c0000) If TARGON IS just a collective group of aspects, then what are targonians? And who were those people kneeling down and giving the crown to Sol?
> then what are targonians? Exactly what the quote would imply. Targorians would simply be a term to refer to the Aspects/specific set of celestials. Not an entire race/species. You can then expand it to to mean anyone that serves the interests of the Aspects (they may have lesser celestials loyal to them). > And who were those people kneeling down and giving the crown to Sol? I would assume Runeterran natives following Targon's instructions.
: > [{quoted}](name=TacoBrain,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=nkJMxIt9,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-03-06T23:33:06.673+0000) > > An attempt at answering this: > > I am guessing the latter. [Scathlocke once implied they did not originate in Runeterra nor any other world](https://twitter.com/LaurieGoulding/status/1052818215758249984) but you can make the case that the celestial realm isn't a "world" proper (in the sense of a planet) so much as an entirely different plane of existence. > > Let's use two different terms for Aspects: mortal Aspects are the hosts, celestial Aspects are the celestials that empower them. The real Targon, the ones who enslaved ASol, are the celestial Aspects (and maybe, any lesser celestial entities that serve them). The people of Mount Targon aren't "Targorian" in the same sense as the celestial entities. They are just people, whose culture is shaped by the Aspects, living at what is effectively their doorstep potentially following lessons the celestial Aspects shared in times immemorial. They stand in Mount Targon and fight wanderers (celestial entities that enter Runeterra via the portal atop Mount Targon) and are sometimes chosen/empowered by the celestial Aspects as their agents (in which case, celestial and human merge, something similar, but not wholly identical, to Ascension). > > Unknown, maybe Targon is a specific group of celestials that did not give up on their little pet project. Maybe they have other motivations. This is just beyond what we presently know. > > Runeterra seems to be a nexus of all the realms, it is the door and crossroads of all of creation (and beyond, even the Void has found a way in via Runeterra). Whatever celestials shaped Runeterra using the world runes seemed to have wanted to create a plane of existence that could outshine all others, perhaps they realized too late they had invited the Void to their realm. Perhaps Targon are those celestials that stand watch for the Void. > > We don't know, I assume they were curious and playing gods but, in their celestial purity, never quite understood free will. We've had info on Celestial Concepts, ideals manifest in the celestial realm, the very power behind mortal Aspects and Ascended. Perhaps they can only ever be what they are. Could War ever not be War and be something more or something else? Maybe they're slaves to their deterministic natures and never expected mortal life to not be constrained to a single idea like they are. > > Maybe but, again, we don't know. Maybe she was a celestial concept that abandoned her role to interact with the quirky physical reality. > > I do believe Targon is not the only celestial faction ([Myisha wanted plausible deniability for trapping/killing celestials when she trapped the Darkin but the question is: who would hold her accountable?](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/8una0m/were_the_team_that_updated_aatrox_ask_us_anything/e1i6g8l/) I'm guessing non-Targorian Concepts/Aspects). > > Not known yet. > > I reckon that no, Targon is not the entirety of celestials nor do they control the whole of the celestial realm. I will leave this bit from Zoe's bio: > > So Targon is still expanding interdimensionally. > > A few things: bios are subjective. The most obvious examples are Jayce and Viktor. Bios reflect what the champion thought to a point. Aurelion _thought_ they were a species that had expanded from their home world (in a way, he may be right). I believe he has since realized he was wrong and tricked. He likely saw what Targon wanted him to see at the time. > > As for the reason they need him? Targon cannot operate in the material plane usually. Their mortal Aspects, the time space twisting around the Mountain and Soraka sacrificing her power to even come to Runeterra are examples of this. But Aurelion? He is a physical creature or, at least, more physical than them. He is the perfect weapon. They cannot exert their power in the material plane but ASol can. > > We don't know. They may be completely unrelated to Targon or Targon as an empire may have been born from these would-be creator's actions (maybe the celestial Aspects were part of that group). The Sol question should be answered just before. > > ______ > > **TL;DR: An attempt at synthesizing all this/my current thoughts:** > > - A group of celestials created Runeterra with some goal. Runeterra is the nexus of all known planes (physical, spiritual, celestial and the Void). Celestial Creators abandon the project. > > - Targon, a group of celestial concepts (embodiments of abstract concepts) that would later be known as Aspects, is formed, relation with the Creators unknown. > > - [Celestial concepts cannot operate in the physical plane](https://twitter.com/LaurieGoulding/status/1061366466220441601) without significant cost so they rely on merging with humans who resonate with their essence and manipulate an arrogant star dragon into servitude (making him think they are a mere "physical" race). Now, they have the means to operate in the physical plane and use Aurelion to challenge any physical entities that could threaten their control. They begin to expand into multiple dimensions. > > - Their foothold/gateway into Runeterra lies in a mountain known as Mount Targon. People gather there and build cultures around the Aspects, the Aspects likely manipulate them in small ways, ensuring they stand guard against celestial Wanderers that come from atop the mountain. The people of Mount Targon are not true Targorians and Targorians may not be an actual celestial race so much as simply the term for those few celestials that have active interest in Runeterra. And how to explain this from Sol's lore? > He clashed with other cosmic entities, some of which he had known since the dawn of time. For millennia, he fought Targon’s wars, crushed any threats to its dominance, and helped it forge a star-spanning empire It is very intresesting that in the Chinese tranlastion, this phase is translated in a very funny way. DO you se the "it" from** "helped it forge a star-spanning empire"??** Do you know what does this **"it" **reffer? And why in Chinese version they add a quotation mark to the "it" ("它") ??? Seems that this is very special??{{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
In the english version, "it" refers to Targon. ASol helped it/Targon (the collective Aspects) forge a star-spanning empire. I am not sure what the quotations may imply.
: > [{quoted}](name=TacoBrain,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=nkJMxIt9,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-03-06T23:33:06.673+0000) > > An attempt at answering this: > > I am guessing the latter. [Scathlocke once implied they did not originate in Runeterra nor any other world](https://twitter.com/LaurieGoulding/status/1052818215758249984) but you can make the case that the celestial realm isn't a "world" proper (in the sense of a planet) so much as an entirely different plane of existence. > > Let's use two different terms for Aspects: mortal Aspects are the hosts, celestial Aspects are the celestials that empower them. The real Targon, the ones who enslaved ASol, are the celestial Aspects (and maybe, any lesser celestial entities that serve them). The people of Mount Targon aren't "Targorian" in the same sense as the celestial entities. They are just people, whose culture is shaped by the Aspects, living at what is effectively their doorstep potentially following lessons the celestial Aspects shared in times immemorial. They stand in Mount Targon and fight wanderers (celestial entities that enter Runeterra via the portal atop Mount Targon) and are sometimes chosen/empowered by the celestial Aspects as their agents (in which case, celestial and human merge, something similar, but not wholly identical, to Ascension). > > Unknown, maybe Targon is a specific group of celestials that did not give up on their little pet project. Maybe they have other motivations. This is just beyond what we presently know. > > Runeterra seems to be a nexus of all the realms, it is the door and crossroads of all of creation (and beyond, even the Void has found a way in via Runeterra). Whatever celestials shaped Runeterra using the world runes seemed to have wanted to create a plane of existence that could outshine all others, perhaps they realized too late they had invited the Void to their realm. Perhaps Targon are those celestials that stand watch for the Void. > > We don't know, I assume they were curious and playing gods but, in their celestial purity, never quite understood free will. We've had info on Celestial Concepts, ideals manifest in the celestial realm, the very power behind mortal Aspects and Ascended. Perhaps they can only ever be what they are. Could War ever not be War and be something more or something else? Maybe they're slaves to their deterministic natures and never expected mortal life to not be constrained to a single idea like they are. > > Maybe but, again, we don't know. Maybe she was a celestial concept that abandoned her role to interact with the quirky physical reality. > > I do believe Targon is not the only celestial faction ([Myisha wanted plausible deniability for trapping/killing celestials when she trapped the Darkin but the question is: who would hold her accountable?](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/8una0m/were_the_team_that_updated_aatrox_ask_us_anything/e1i6g8l/) I'm guessing non-Targorian Concepts/Aspects). > > Not known yet. > > I reckon that no, Targon is not the entirety of celestials nor do they control the whole of the celestial realm. I will leave this bit from Zoe's bio: > > So Targon is still expanding interdimensionally. > > A few things: bios are subjective. The most obvious examples are Jayce and Viktor. Bios reflect what the champion thought to a point. Aurelion _thought_ they were a species that had expanded from their home world (in a way, he may be right). I believe he has since realized he was wrong and tricked. He likely saw what Targon wanted him to see at the time. > > As for the reason they need him? Targon cannot operate in the material plane usually. Their mortal Aspects, the time space twisting around the Mountain and Soraka sacrificing her power to even come to Runeterra are examples of this. But Aurelion? He is a physical creature or, at least, more physical than them. He is the perfect weapon. They cannot exert their power in the material plane but ASol can. > > We don't know. They may be completely unrelated to Targon or Targon as an empire may have been born from these would-be creator's actions (maybe the celestial Aspects were part of that group). The Sol question should be answered just before. > > ______ > > **TL;DR: An attempt at synthesizing all this/my current thoughts:** > > - A group of celestials created Runeterra with some goal. Runeterra is the nexus of all known planes (physical, spiritual, celestial and the Void). Celestial Creators abandon the project. > > - Targon, a group of celestial concepts (embodiments of abstract concepts) that would later be known as Aspects, is formed, relation with the Creators unknown. > > - [Celestial concepts cannot operate in the physical plane](https://twitter.com/LaurieGoulding/status/1061366466220441601) without significant cost so they rely on merging with humans who resonate with their essence and manipulate an arrogant star dragon into servitude (making him think they are a mere "physical" race). Now, they have the means to operate in the physical plane and use Aurelion to challenge any physical entities that could threaten their control. They begin to expand into multiple dimensions. > > - Their foothold/gateway into Runeterra lies in a mountain known as Mount Targon. People gather there and build cultures around the Aspects, the Aspects likely manipulate them in small ways, ensuring they stand guard against celestial Wanderers that come from atop the mountain. The people of Mount Targon are not true Targorians and Targorians may not be an actual celestial race so much as simply the term for those few celestials that have active interest in Runeterra. In SOl's lore, it mentions this: > Desiring a deeper connection with one of the few races he deemed worthy, the cosmic dragon selected the most ambitious species to grace with his presence. These chosen few sought to unravel the secrets of the universe and had already expanded beyond their **home planet.** Many verses were composed about the day the Star Forger descended to a tiny world and announced his presence to the Targonians. which means, targonians they have a home planet, they were a material race? And, What were the people who kneeled down and gave the crown to Sol? Targonian's material form? Or runeterra's people manipulated by targonians? (who are the ascenstors of Rakours)
I may not have been clear in my post but ASol's bio is likely biased and portrays his perspective. He thought they had an home planet, that does not necessarily mean this is the case, only that at the time he approached them with that thinking in mind. With that said, they're doing editorial passes to all bios so sooner or later they may clear out any inconsistency (if indeed, there is an inconsistency to be fixed rather than just a subjective point of view). We've had other Riot comments saying ASol does not truly know how they arose but has suspicions. Both of your options may be valid. We have seen what may be the Aspect of the Sun manifesting materially near the confines of Mount Targon in Leona's lore but I assume they manipulated pre-Rakkor to do it.
: Relationship between Targonians and Aspects?
An attempt at answering this: > Targoninas are just, or at least were just a normal race in the early time of current universe, like Runeterran people, from certain planet? Or they are from another plane of existence or another dimension, whose existence form has always been spirit or some unknow cosmic energy? I am guessing the latter. [Scathlocke once implied they did not originate in Runeterra nor any other world](https://twitter.com/LaurieGoulding/status/1052818215758249984) but you can make the case that the celestial realm isn't a "world" proper (in the sense of a planet) so much as an entirely different plane of existence. > Aspects arise from Targonians (for example, some ascension form in the celestial world, same as Shuriman Ascension), or Aspects created Targonians? Or they are just two different type of creatures who work together? Let's use two different terms for Aspects: mortal Aspects are the hosts, celestial Aspects are the celestials that empower them. The real Targon, the ones who enslaved ASol, are the celestial Aspects (and maybe, any lesser celestial entities that serve them). The people of Mount Targon aren't "Targorian" in the same sense as the celestial entities. They are just people, whose culture is shaped by the Aspects, living at what is effectively their doorstep potentially following lessons the celestial Aspects shared in times immemorial. They stand in Mount Targon and fight wanderers (celestial entities that enter Runeterra via the portal atop Mount Targon) and are sometimes chosen/empowered by the celestial Aspects as their agents (in which case, celestial and human merge, something similar, but not wholly identical, to Ascension). > So, what is this "inhabitants of the celestial real"? And why they care so much about the runeterra people? > > Are they targonians? Are they aspects? or they are someone else? Unknown, maybe Targon is a specific group of celestials that did not give up on their little pet project. Maybe they have other motivations. This is just beyond what we presently know. > This means that the celestial beings is watching and guiding or even controlling the mundane people. Only for Runeterra? Or they just do this on all civilizations in this universe? Runeterra seems to be a nexus of all the realms, it is the door and crossroads of all of creation (and beyond, even the Void has found a way in via Runeterra). Whatever celestials shaped Runeterra using the world runes seemed to have wanted to create a plane of existence that could outshine all others, perhaps they realized too late they had invited the Void to their realm. Perhaps Targon are those celestials that stand watch for the Void. > AND WHY THEY DO THIS? They are natural celestial beings? or they are targonians who arose by hand of aurelion sol from another ordinary planet, and now just wanna control all the universe? We don't know, I assume they were curious and playing gods but, in their celestial purity, never quite understood free will. We've had info on Celestial Concepts, ideals manifest in the celestial realm, the very power behind mortal Aspects and Ascended. Perhaps they can only ever be what they are. Could War ever not be War and be something more or something else? Maybe they're slaves to their deterministic natures and never expected mortal life to not be constrained to a single idea like they are. > She mentions pantheon, leona and diana, and seems that she know them and know how the aspect ascension work. > If she is not an aspect,what is she? A targonian normal inhabitant??? Maybe but, again, we don't know. Maybe she was a celestial concept that abandoned her role to interact with the quirky physical reality. > Or just another race of celestial beings cause there are many races in the celestial realm like in Runeterra? I do believe Targon is not the only celestial faction ([Myisha wanted plausible deniability for trapping/killing celestials when she trapped the Darkin but the question is: who would hold her accountable?](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/8una0m/were_the_team_that_updated_aatrox_ask_us_anything/e1i6g8l/) I'm guessing non-Targorian Concepts/Aspects). > They what is the relationship between Soraka and other targonians and aspects? Not known yet. > So how many celestial races out there are in the universe? > They are all called targonians? Or just targonians conquered them all? so now it is a united empire? I reckon that no, Targon is not the entirety of celestials nor do they control the whole of the celestial realm. I will leave this bit from Zoe's bio: > Following this unusual transcendence, **Zoe journeyed to dimensions at the very edge of Targon's control,** playing within realities beyond human comprehension. So Targon is still expanding interdimensionally. > Why did targonians slave aurelion sol, if they are such a poweful race cause in Sol's lore it says targonians had already got the ability to colonize out of their home planet? > But why 3 years ago, a rioter said that what Sol's thinks and knows about Targonians is not 100% accurate because even he doesn't know what are targonians and where they are from? A few things: bios are subjective. The most obvious examples are Jayce and Viktor. Bios reflect what the champion thought to a point. Aurelion _thought_ they were a species that had expanded from their home world (in a way, he may be right). I believe he has since realized he was wrong and tricked. He likely saw what Targon wanted him to see at the time. As for the reason they need him? Targon cannot operate in the material plane usually. Their mortal Aspects, the time space twisting around the Mountain and Soraka sacrificing her power to even come to Runeterra are examples of this. But Aurelion? He is a physical creature or, at least, more physical than them. He is the perfect weapon. They cannot exert their power in the material plane but ASol can. > Then, what are these celestial beings? Are they targonians ? aspects? or targonians and aspects? > > If they are targonians with such power, then again, why they need to slave Sol? We don't know. They may be completely unrelated to Targon or Targon as an empire may have been born from these would-be creator's actions (maybe the celestial Aspects were part of that group). The Sol question should be answered just before. ______ **TL;DR: An attempt at synthesizing all this/my current thoughts:** - A group of celestials created Runeterra with some goal. Runeterra is the nexus of all known planes (physical, spiritual, celestial and the Void). Celestial Creators abandon the project. - Targon, a group of celestial concepts (embodiments of abstract concepts) that would later be known as Aspects, is formed, relation with the Creators unknown. - [Celestial concepts cannot operate in the physical plane](https://twitter.com/LaurieGoulding/status/1061366466220441601) without significant cost so they rely on merging with humans who resonate with their essence and manipulate an arrogant star dragon into servitude (making him think they are a mere "physical" race). Now, they have the means to operate in the physical plane and use Aurelion to challenge any physical entities that could threaten their control. They begin to expand into multiple dimensions. - Their foothold/gateway into Runeterra lies in a mountain known as Mount Targon. People gather there and build cultures around the Aspects, the Aspects likely manipulate them in small ways, ensuring they stand guard against celestial Wanderers that come from atop the mountain. The people of Mount Targon are not true Targorians and Targorians may not be an actual celestial race so much as simply the term for those few celestials that have active interest in Runeterra.
: That’s way too vague and short. Ofc the rioter was referring to Targon as a faction and not just the mountain.
ASol is not enslaved by the people of the mountain. He's enslaved by the celestial beings that those people worship. He only cares about the Aspects and ending their leash on him. [This is why Sol himself does not know what they are](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/cfEdVAJd-welcome-to-the-aurelion-sol-qa?comment=003e0000) (he thought they were an ordinary mortal race when he first came to Runeterra, he was wrong, he is now trying to puzzle out their true nature): > It's currently a mystery as to where and how the Targonians arose. Aurelion himself has suspicions that aren't 100% confirmed. [And why Riot made it clear that the "star spanning empire" belongs to the Aspects:](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/cfEdVAJd-welcome-to-the-aurelion-sol-qa?comment=00a30000) >The people of Mount Targon -- like the Rakkor, for instance -- do not travel to space in starships or anything. They are human and bound to this world in the same manner as other factions. > The Aspects, however, are more like spiritual entities that exist out of time, potentially in other planes of existence. They multiple “possess” hosts on different worlds and use them as their avatars. They don’t have spaceships, so swords and spears (and firearms) are still the de-facto weaponry on each world.
: He says the Aspects, not Targonians ;D This further fuels my theory: Targonians are a mortal race from Runeterra who met the Celestial Aspects during their tapping of cosmic magic.
They're one and the same. ASol is enslaved by the Aspects. [Targon is just a term for the collective group of Aspects. ](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/cfEdVAJd-welcome-to-the-aurelion-sol-qa?comment=008c0000)
: > [{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=pGh0gkno,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-02-27T11:37:30.692+0000) > > 1 - Aurelion Sol creates stars, not planets. As also says this quote: _"Planetary life... the insufferable byproduct of dim stars."_. World Runes are not his creation and iirc they just came to birth on Runeterra as result of its own magic nature. > > 2 - Targonians are native of Runeterra but they tapped into cosmic magic and space travel before Aurelion Sol came in contact with them, he got interested in them exactly because of it. what is the evidence proving Runeterra is targonian's home planet?
There is no real evidence ([and Scathlocke even said otherwise](https://twitter.com/LaurieGoulding/status/1052818215758249984) a while back although some of these things can be a bit in flux). What this bit from his bio (which will eventually be updated to fit the new editorial standards like they've been doing with J4, Garen or Lux): > These chosen few sought to unravel the secrets of the universe and had already expanded beyond their home planet. Likely reads is as Aurelion's own perspective. He thought they were mortals. He was wrong. In particular see [this reply by FauxSchizzle a few years ago:](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/cfEdVAJd-welcome-to-the-aurelion-sol-qa?comment=003e0000) > It's currently a mystery as to where and how the Targonians arose. Aurelion himself has suspicions that aren't 100% confirmed. I would say the current best theory as to what the Targorians are is a specific group of celestial concepts (basically personifications of concepts and ideas that exist in the celestial realm) that has an interest in Runeterra. It is unclear what their endgame is or how their politics with non Targorian celestials (if there is such a thing) are.
: I don't recall if it's directly said somewhere. Yet the fact that the mountain is called Targon and the city atop of it is called Targon Prime there is a high chance that their origin is from that zone.
[Scathlocke confirmed they are not Runeterran natives.](https://twitter.com/LaurieGoulding/status/1052818215758249984)
: I've thought about this alot actually. The comic strongly hints at a spiritual connection between Ashe and Anivia. So personally I would retheme it around Anivia. This would create a greater parity with Braum being an iceborn from a tribe with strong ties to Ornn (and hence having his magic take the shape of the ram ). Thus you can understand elemental magic as related to, but not synonymous with, the animal spirit gods of the Freljord.
I'd always figured Braum was a being akin to Janna myself, a folk hero spirit given life by the stories and oral tradition about his feats.
: Not canonical but also not non-canonical because my basic philosophy on world building favors rules (logic based) instead of categorization. Categorization just creates an endless list and endless exceptions— like french verbs. ;) So in this instance, the question (when roleplaying, writing etc..) is : does that culture see a distinction between those possible elements? And is it possible to assign an separate emotional and symbolic value to them. Is ash a part of fire? They are probably related but probably not the same —if you live anywhere near a volcano. ((An example would be Anivia as a demi-god representing the first frost and changing of the seasons vs the Volibear with storms, lighting, and blizzards. Both can relate to a snow storm and can relate to true ice... but what kind of snow storm? The one that might kill your tribe, or the one that freezes the rivers and marshes thus making you free to travel?)) Basically the requirement for sand or mist to be a core element is for some culture to perceive that to be true— which is very likely in any enviroment that experiences it. (So shurimans probably don’t have mist mages or even know that type of magic exists, but Ionians probably do— though conversely -sand based magic would seem odd or impossible to Ionians.)
Thanks for the great answer, lots of food for thought! Have a happy new year.
: Is not. (Change is coming for zilean too). But I’ll leave something for the meme lords in the VO.
If you're able to answer a few questions about elements in League: - would you say ash or lava are full blown elements? We know Ice, for example, seems to stand distinct from water. - were the examples you gave a while back (sand, mist) canonical? Or are there still details to be worked out on what does or doesn't constitute an "element"?
: The exact interaction of different primal magics is probably what you would expect. Think of True Ice as a powerful multiplier. So Ashe has some limited natural ability to make/use magic--- but interacting with a pure elemental (in this case true ice) greatly multiplies her power. Turning the true ice into a weapon focuses that power. (It could also be focused into healing or other functions.) So powerful fire magic like brand and Annie could **_potentially_** damage true-ice--- but it's likely without a pure fire elemental to enhance their magic-- they wouldn't be powerful enough to have any noticeable effect ight away. Pure elementals are lethal for any normal mortal to touch. But normal mortal is the key word here-- Lux, Brand, Darius etc.. are hardly normal mortals. That said if youre not an iceborn, I would argue touching true ice is a really bad idea --even if you're super powerful like Zoe or Aatrox. It might not kill you-- but it sure as heck ain't gonna be fun. True ice can be, cut, shaped and sculpted-- but not easily and few have the skills and tools to do the work anymore. It's more common for a iceborn to attach a tiny shard to a weapon. (also 'cause it's precious and rare) Ultimately I would argue shaping it is a question for those few men that are favored by Orrn.
A few questions albeit they do fall outside the purview of the comic and may be ahead of what you're willing to share at the moment: - When you say "men favored by Ornn" are you talking about smiths and craftsmen? Or is Ornn, and his "kin", who seems to be himself associated with the fiery equivalent of true ice, able to grant direct blessings? - You said that Iceborn were magically connected to the land. Is this still an accurate description? Or are they perhaps more closely connected with the pure element of ice? Or has the Freljord being cold make the former basically the same as the latter? - Are there other such mystically imbued beings who naturally possess connections with pure elements other than true ice? - If true ice can appear naturally, as the map states, can all pure elements?
Kanęki (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Thaumaturge Void,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=KbIwQXfF,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-12-14T18:57:02.893+0000) > > Not true. From The Legend of the Darkin, “...Ascended began to falter in purpose as their older, petty ambitions resurfaced. They taught themselves forbidden sorceries, and came to be view themselves as the rightful inheritors of the world. The scattered mortal populace named these new tyrants Darkin, a whispered curse translating roughly in the old tongue as ‘The Fallen’.” > > Never does it exclude those who weren’t at Icathia or didn’t fight the void. It literally states Darkin are ascended who pursue petty ambitions, which perfectly fits Xerath and Renekton after the onset of madness. That's outdated lore. The void corrupted them and they learned how to possess people while imprisoned.
[Legend of the Darkin](https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_GB/story/the-legend-of-the-darkin/) was released at the same time as the rest of the current Darkin lore. The Ascended began losing their sanity while fighting the Void, the empire's fall lead them to believing they were meant to rule the world, they began dwelling on blood magic, allied with each other to conquer the world and then gradually fell to bickering and in-fighting.
: We had to delay it quite a bit for resourcing reasons, but yes, we're still planning something at around the Shyvana-ish scope for Sol. We're ramping up on it now, so it'll be at least a few more patches before we have anything to show.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KhmjsJ4o,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-01-02T18:46:07.361+0000) > > We had to delay it quite a bit for resourcing reasons, but yes, we're still planning something at around the Shyvana-ish scope for Sol. We're ramping up on it now, so it'll be at least a few more patches before we have anything to show. Can you tell us anything on the goals you have with the mini-rework? Is it still about trying to make him more accessible and his skills more rewarding? I feel like he's currently in a very good spot, it's annoying to play against the likes of Fizz/Yasuo pre-6 and only having your AA's to react but as far as being unique and having counterplay, Aurelion is up there. Feels weird to see him tweaked because his design is so unique.
: I haven't played recent iterations **of** the new champion, but I played with them on my team recently and enjoyed the hell out of the experience. To be fair, I enjoy very specific things about LoL
> [{quoted}](name=Gentleman Gustaf,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=HRveja4e,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-12T20:31:42.713+0000) > > I haven't played recent iterations **of** the new champion, but I played with them on my team recently and enjoyed the hell out of the experience. To be fair, I enjoy very specific things about LoL Could you tell us who's designing him?
: Champion Gameplay Values 2016
* **Do you agree/disagree with where we think we’re at?** Yes and no. The post seems to hint that future champion releases won't be as unique as this year's. You talk about reducing **"Mechanical Execution Mastery" **and "**Unique experience"** but I feel like these should always remain goals of champion design. The former implies complexity. Complexity shouldn't be the end goal of design, but if it emerges as a consequence of interesting abilities then it's a good thing. Most players flock to champions that actively reward mastery and give a sense of progression. That's why few people enjoy Taric or Warwick, because their simplicity is oftentimes equivalent to a complete lack of interesting decisions in the game and a complete lack of a sense of progression. Progression is important, and champions like Azir/Gnar/Kalista for example all provide plenty of it by having a lot of flexibility and options. This can go wrong if the kit feels overwhelming to play against (due to the abundance of tools) but I feel like it's a line that must be walked. All 3 of these champs have been up for several balance changes because of their fundamental design but they're extremely fun to play as because the player gets a sense of improvement with each additional game with them. The post linked on the OP mentioned that MOBA players are all about mastery. Well then, don't take that from us. Simpler champions are fine, but we have about 130 champions and I feel like it'll take a long time before mechanically difficult champions become the norm. The concept of **unique experience **is equally important, since it's a direct consequence of strategic identity. If each champion has a niche, they are therefore unique. Not every champion needs a minigame or a wacky mechanic, but stopping them would be almost a step back. These "minigames" however seemingly pointless are usually core on some champions (Bard's passive is amazing, both thematically and in gameplay as well, because it fits his theme and playstyle) but I'll admit some others aren't too fun. Skarner's passive (I know he's an updated champ, not a new one but felt it was important to mention) feels very much gimmicky for the sake of gimmicky, there's no mention of crystal spires in any iteration of his lore and while kidnapping people to his lair seems like appropriate to a scorpion, their locations and limited numbers simply mean they don't feel good. If he's behind, the enemy is able to deny him the spires, so he'll get no benefit from them. If he's ahead, he'll already be strong outside them, let alone within them. It doesn't feel good to play against him, and since he was nerfed after his release, he doesn't feel too fun to play as either. If you play it safe and remove these "Unique experiences" altogether, the champions that emerge will be much more likely to overlap with older ones or lack a distinctive strength/weakness profile, effectively meaning their strategic identity is non-existent unless they're broken. Also, remember the finer things. Why does Tahm's W remove vision? It's already one of the most powerful abilities in the game, but removing vision within his belly feels completely unfun. Even if you don't die, it's annoying. I feel like Tahm is the single worst champion in the new releases. His kit on paper sounds good and fair but, in practice, his Q is annoying, his W is frustrating, his E feels very much like a slap in the face and his ultimate feels like it makes no sense in relation to the rest of his kit. More like it was tacked on. I'm not saying he's broken, the last couple of nerfs are keeping him in check, but just because a recent release isn't broken, that doesn't mean there aren't clear issues with it. Tahm seemed like a niche pick and what we've been getting instead is a champion that had almost pick-or-ban status for several months, that alone should have warranted heavier hits. A more personal complaint, that may or may not be relevant from a design standpoint, is the grey health mechanic. I'm a big fan of new mechanics and, again, on paper it sounds very interesting. Tahm now has a choice between sustain or added survivability in prolonged fights, but the choice ends up non-existent in practice. If you get engaged or are low hp, pop your E. Otherwise, don't and you'll get some free health. I never found the sustain aspect unfair, albeit a few people did, but I would very much agree that the shield aspect doesn't feel too good. I'm not a designer, nor do I have the tools and knowledge that the team does, but I feel like Tahm could have benefited from a "Bond of Stone"-esque ability, where he'd take a percentage of damage instead of the ADC. It would serve a similar niche to his current E, in so far as duo lane trades go, but then it would potentially overlap with Braum's concept and would be difficult to implement in terms of his solo lane (and Mordekaiser's rework alone has shown the lack of support for "locking" a champion in a duo lane context). I actually like Tahm, I swear. He's currently 3rd place in terms of mastery points (1st being Bard and 2nd being Kindred, I also have mastery level 5 on Azir and Braum. It doesn't mean much, I know, but it should say something about how great I think recent releases have been). * **Are there any values missing and worth discussing?** ** Innovation **is a big one. Pushing the envelope in every direction is the best way to grow and learn. The recent VO's, skins, music themes and kits have all been extremely well-designed; I really feel like the uniqueness of new releases shouldn't be compromised any time soon. I hope you keep investing into all of these aspects. On a related note, I like having champions like Kindred that fulfill unconventional roles in different positions. Another big one for me is **Number Tuning**. I understand internal tests only go so far but there's been a few cases where I'm personally interested in how Riot handles a few situations. For example, Kindred. I play a lot of Kindred. I quite like their design (a case could be made about duality but I'm a big fan of their kit). The big thing about them, however, is that they were presented as an ADC from the jungle that would have strong late game presence as befits an ADC, their ganks were meant to be possible but not overwhelmingly strong (because of the lack of CC). And yet, on their release, Devourer is nerfed on ranged champions. Their kit, with the current numbers, best fits an early game snowballing strategy that revolves around Armor Penetration since their scalings are pretty bad and their AA damage is lacking without their passive. I understand the passive acts as a mechanism to ensure they don't become too overwhelming but it feels almost wrong to play the one champion designed to be an ADC from the jungle, and instead of being a late-game auto attacking threat with limited CC and situationally powerful tools like Wolf's Frenzy and Lamb's Respite, they feel more like an early-mid game caster that needs to snowball or falls off massively. They're well-designed, I feel, but the way the numbers are tweaked, the way Devourer was nerfed, the passive alone seems almost counter-intuitive in their current iteration. Their Q/W gives amazing kiting and chasing allowing to proc the passive on-hit. Further autoattacking benefits are present with their E and yet most people would agree the Warrior build is far better than the Devourer one which doesn't feel consistent with their fantasy. Number tuning is especially concerning when new/updated champions are released and are underwhelming at first. From memory Gnar/Bard/Tahm/Azir/Darius/Fiora/Poppy all got buffed shortly after their release. Gnar was mostly QoL but he became a staple pick in many games afterwards. Bard has been receiving buffs all year long. Tahm received them as far as Worlds before starting to get promptly nerfed. Azir went trough something similar, lots of bug fixes and a few buffs afterwards albeit he was never overwhelmingly strong in Solo Q. Darius/Fiora became competitive picks as well as pubstompers. Many currently feel like Poppy is OP. I feel like a bit of restraint should be necessary, especially in higher skill cap champs since the first week is rarely good for determining the true power level of a pick (unless it's that broken). Otherwise you run into situations like Gnar/Tahm/Darius who are far more reliable than they should have been in the first place. For 2016, even if a champion suffers a patch or two, I feel like a bit more time should be taken before relevant buffs are applied to harder champions. * **Are you excited for 2016 with this refreshed perspective and how we hope to apply it?** I'm always looking forward to the new champ releases. You guys do an amazing job in every single one. I hope my feedback was worth something and my criticism was constructive and not overly ranty. Thanks for the post, I quite like these little insights in terms of design. (Edited slightly. My point of view may not be universal since I personally love a lot of the recent "gimmicks" and mini-games, but I feel like it's important to mention it.)
Mirross (NA)
: Hextech Crafting and Loot Q&A
A few questions: 1) Is the 1 champion-crate per season a decision set in stone? It seems like a good way to ensure that people continue experimenting with different champions and rewards that type of player. However, a season is roughly a year. Don't you feel this may be too big of a "cooldown" period? 2) Are there any plans on any sort of trading system where we can exchange loot with other players? 3) Do you guys feel like confident about this launch? I'm assuming it's the first time Riot itself has ever experimented with this sort of reward system. Isn't it, for the most part, uncharted territory? 4) Did you look into other games with similar features (CS:GO, TF2) while designing this? Specifically, were the limitations you've imposed born out of mere foresight or actual problems other games have already faced? Thanks for this. Best of luck with this launch!

TacoBrain

Level 194 (EUW)
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