: What's with all the hate on Dunkmaster Ivern?
Personally I really dislike the creepy orange afro and glasses.
: Spellthief Proc on Nami's Ebb and Flow bounce back
They changed it so that one ability can only proc spell thiefs once. I'm not sure about the second instance though. As far as I know it should proc after healing an ally with it.
DeusVult (NA)
: With all the drama around Dunkmaster Ivern, too many people have forgotten the original dunkmaster
I don't mind this skin getting released, but they had better not shelf him for another 2/3 years. This is not a high quality skin and a LOT of people seem to hate it. He at least deserves to get a skin that people enjoy, before the end of 2019.
Queio (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Toþykachu,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ogvHtVdA,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2019-03-19T22:04:26.108+0000) > > What about Kayn? What about his wonderful Legendary Skin last year?
That's what I'm saying. Kayn's first skin was legendary, why can't Ivern's be?
: > [{quoted}](name=EggDaddy,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ogvHtVdA,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-03-19T20:41:03.634+0000) > > You're right, but the skin that was 'leaked' would have been a legendary, if it was real. Although I'm agreeing with you, that it wouldn't have worked as an epic or lower, but let's be honest, neither does this. Oh I never disputed that this skin doesn't work. I know it doesn't. The only way this would have worked would have been if it was released several years later, after he'd got a good library of skins and people wouldn't be disappointed by a joke skin. But to wait 2 years for this skins, and probably another 2 more for whatever is next is just stupid and disappointing.
What about Kayn?
: So Riot - we vote on 3 Tristana skins, but don't get to vote on Ivern's completely random ass skin?
The Sewn Chaos skins were 200x better than this mess of an Ivern skin
GigglesO (NA)
: Did you miss that this is memes and games?
> [{quoted}](name=GigglesO,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=mM6hveIJ,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-03-19T19:02:29.621+0000) > > Did you miss that this is memes and games? God f*cking damnit
GigglesO (NA)
: So When Is J4/Ivern getting a buff?
He is already pretty damn strong
Terozu (NA)
: And that has anything to do with the fact he's eligible for a skin? Also, wasn't DarkStar Jarvan a Make a Wish skin and not actually part of the official reel? Which means he's officially been waiting _6 years_?
It doesn't mean anything, but Riot should have a higher agency to give skins to champions that have literally not had a skin in 4 years. In short - Does getting a skin mean last year mean Jarvan shouldn't get a skin this year? No. Should champions like Shaco and Zilean who haven't had a skin in 4 years be getting a skin first? Yes.
Terozu (NA)
: It's been a whole year. What's your point?
A large number of champions have been waiting 3 years + without a skin...?
Sukishoo (NA)
: Dunk master Ivern...
It is actually comical how hideous this skin is. You can really tell this skin was just developed and released as quickly as possible to get Ivern one more skin so that they can ignore him for another 5 years.
Fargo79 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Toþykachu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4muhY2Rk,comment-id=00020003000000010000,timestamp=2019-03-18T22:52:17.976+0000) > > I fell EXACTLY the same way about Malzahar. Every time he becomes in the meta again I am a massive advocate of nerfing him into the ground. Ideally I hope they revert the Malzahar mini rework. His kit lacks any skill anymore and gives him too many free tools for no reason. Annie has much more interactivity than Morgana. She has little to no defensive tools, very subpoor wave clear and terrible range. All of these things give you avenues to fight back. If she can't one shot you, she is worthless. Building even a few defensive items stops this from happening. Banshee's Veil, Merc treads, Hexdrinker and she is useless. She has no reliable waveclear. An unreliable CC ability and a damage reduction in her kit. U must play alot of AD champs mid then.. cause its great that they have so many MR items they can build without giving up a a real power spike.. AP mages on the other hand can only build Armguard as a defensive item.. and when that happens their Mana regen and CD take a hit as well as actual AP Scaling. sorry but if morg lands a snares thats on u.. ill admit its hitbox is off a tad.. but its slow moving, can be blocked, and if you are playing champs like Zed, Yas, Irelia, Sylas, zoey, talon, Taliya(spelt that wrong) LB, Lux, etc etc etc.. they either dont care about her shield cause they can plow thru it or their follow up attacks come off CD before her shield is off of CD..
I am a support main, with mid as my off role and when I go mid I only ever play AP champions - Usually Vel'Koz or Aurelion Sol. AP champions can go Banshee's Veil and Annie is unable to simply unable to kill them, and in this situation she is completely useless as almost every other mage generally has more windows open in which to harass her back. I agree, Morgana's bind is very easy to dodge in lane usually, the issue is that this doesn't often fall into her game play pattern. She will just W the wave and hard shove it 24/7 and very few champions in the game have the ability to match this wave clear in the early game. In most match-ups she will hold onto her Q for whenever she is getting ganked or you decide to go aggressive. On the matter of her black shield, yes it is easily broken by most mid laners, but generally it should be used to block CC rather than simply as a tool to block damage. There are very few mid laners with instantaneous hard cc in the game and so it should be very easy to react to these abilities as they're in the air and most champions rely on landing these abilities to get the rest of their combo off reliably. Not to mention an extra 200hp to burn through is quite a significant amount in the early stages of the game.
Fargo79 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Toþykachu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4muhY2Rk,comment-id=000200030000,timestamp=2019-03-14T16:04:54.895+0000) > > I am well aware that Morgana was designed as a mid laner, however just because she is much more powerful/popular as a support doesn't mean she isn't at least viable in the mid lane. Sure she's not massively powerful, but I'd definitely rather see Morgana mid than a Lee Sin top or Graves ADC, so let's try and avoid using phrasing that implies Morgana is unplayable as a mid laner. > > That's what I mean. Morgana mid lane is arguably the most un interactive lane opponents in the entire game. From level 1 she places her W and stays a safe distance away and in winning matchups she can fish for bindings. In losing matchups she can build super defensively and keep her binding available for whenever you might look to go aggressive, black shield and walk away. > > If Morgana mid is only able to exist as a specific counter pick to certain champions, she somewhat already is, then she would not be a good mid laner. Take old Kayle for example. She was arguably the single best counter pick to assassins in the game, however did this mean she was any more viable as a support as mid lane Morgana is now? Whilst I agree that having all champions be viable in as many roles as possible is generally a good thing, we simply are not at the point yet as so many champions are barely viable in one role. so u see morg as an "Uninteractive" lane opponent.. laned against a Malz lately?? or an annie?? nothing like a champ that can farm lane with his space aids while he is back in base shopping or a champ that has a massive auto attack range for last hits and keep her stun up for a point and click nuke stun.. anyone remember the old Talon and Kass? talon with an instant gap closing silence, and kass who had his own silence point and click.. depending on who u r playing can determine on how easy, fun, defensive u have to play which in turn will also effect how u view being "uninteractive".. cause by this logic almost EVERY top lane match up would be this.. top lane is just farm, trade a little, jungle ganks here and there. and after 15-20 mins swap with bot lane cause they have taken tower..
I fell EXACTLY the same way about Malzahar. Every time he becomes in the meta again I am a massive advocate of nerfing him into the ground. Ideally I hope they revert the Malzahar mini rework. His kit lacks any skill anymore and gives him too many free tools for no reason. Annie has much more interactivity than Morgana. She has little to no defensive tools, very subpoor wave clear and terrible range. All of these things give you avenues to fight back. If she can't one shot you, she is worthless. Building even a few defensive items stops this from happening. Banshee's Veil, Merc treads, Hexdrinker and she is useless. She has no reliable waveclear. An unreliable CC ability and a damage reduction in her kit.
Baval (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Toþykachu,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=h3qxq4fl,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-03-18T15:34:13.869+0000) > > I don't think people hate him that much? I think people just find it hard to relate to his stories since it's so impossible for him to ever really lose. They only really scratch the surface of his material, who he is as a character and what it is he does. He actually has some pretty touching moments, but all people see is literally a character that is too powerful to ever lose any conflict. This too, a lot of Supermans interesting moments come from his moral stuff rather than just beating up bad guys. [For example, this classic scene of Superman helping a suicidal woman not by just flying in and grabbing her](https://imgur.com/gallery/Ijdxh)
Exactly. Superman gets a lot of shit for being 'boring' but he has plenty of really interesting and emotional moments that people really don't give him enough credit for
: > [{quoted}](name=Toþykachu,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=h3qxq4fl,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-03-18T15:34:13.869+0000) > > I don't think people hate him that much? I think people just find it hard to relate to his stories since it's so impossible for him to ever really lose. They only really scratch the surface of his material, who he is as a character and what it is he does. He actually has some pretty touching moments, but all people see is literally a character that is too powerful to ever lose any conflict. Why do people want to relate to superheroes? Aren't they supposed to be more than what a human is?
Generally people like having the ability to relate to fictional characters as it makes their problems more easily understandable. Superman is basically the Mario of Superheroes. He has the most badic personality that doesn't extend much further than 'truth and justice' in most stories and is almost completely invincible. It makes the issues he faces seem almost redundant.
: Why do people hate superman?
I don't think people hate him that much? I think people just find it hard to relate to his stories since it's so impossible for him to ever really lose. They only really scratch the surface of his material, who he is as a character and what it is he does. He actually has some pretty touching moments, but all people see is literally a character that is too powerful to ever lose any conflict.
: > [{quoted}](name=Toþykachu,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=rYzKITkm,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2019-03-17T05:13:33.594+0000) > > I understand why they're particularly strong in pro play and I get why they aren't particularly strong in solo queue, but it still sucks being a Bard main and seeing him once every thousand games or something. :P They're actually very strong in solo q, much stronger than in pro play. Ranged supports are extremely weak in solo q, much weaker than in pro play, to the point that they are practically troll picks.
True, especially for Braum. I think people just prefer more aggressive laning supports like Morgana and Thresh to have a better shot at carrying themselves
Infernape (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Toþykachu,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=rYzKITkm,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-03-17T00:35:07.843+0000) > > Seeing as how they are virtually the only types of supports seen in pro play, I think this is a fair statement. Probably because tanks are the ones with the most CC, peel and engage/disengage. Pro play is a different game entirely to casual play. Because you're seeing more damage oriented champs in most roles nowadays, pro teams would need some form of hard engage (if they're not playing Liss mid) and some form of front line. The easiest way to round out said team comp is to stick the support on a champion that can engage and disengage fights and have some form of peel, which just so happens to fit tanks the most. Even then Riot keep nerfing Relic Shield for competitive (all the Relic Shield champions aren't overly strong in casual play), and clearly the pros still want to pick tanks.
I understand why they're particularly strong in pro play and I get why they aren't particularly strong in solo queue, but it still sucks being a Bard main and seeing him once every thousand games or something. :P
: Tank supports are still too strong.
Seeing as how they are virtually the only types of supports seen in pro play, I think this is a fair statement.
IAmTheLego (EUNE)
: How to "flame" without actually flaming?
Sarcasm is your best friend. Things like "you're so talented" or "please teach me to play like you!"
: Theorycraft: Font of life ardent censer mage support
Glacial augment seems kind of redundant without rushing glp + twin shadows
Fargo79 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Toþykachu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4muhY2Rk,comment-id=0002000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-14T06:40:15.454+0000) > > The thing about Morgana is that she has the ability to nullify the vast majority of mid lane match ups. She has the ability to endlessly shove waves from a relatively safe distance with her W. The only difference between a Morgana in a winning lane and a Morgana in a losing lane is her agency to fish for bindings. Against most of the mid lane champs you listed their ability to all in you is severely reduced if you manage to land a binding onto any of them. Even Yasuo who can windwall your binding has relatively low kill threat against a Morgana thanks to how difficult it should be for him to knock you up through your black shield. > > As you said, a lot of the older and more traditional mages are struggling to find a solid home in the current meta of League of Legends the only difference being that Morgana has a home in the support role whilst virtually all of the mages you listed do not. well a mid morg usually maxes out her W for farming.. and depending on if its an AP or AD champ she is laning against will determine if she maxes snare or shield.. so because a brand cant play mid anymore means he should be allowed to go support with no nerfs? gotta love it when the supp brand has the highest damage on the team.. Morg is by far outdated for a mid role, I personally still play her there but its only cause i know her inside and out.. her shield doesnt help her if she is laning VS an AD champ that could care less about CC'ing her or AP champs whos burst or kit has a shorter CD then her shield..
1) Brand mid is still totally viable. We, as a community, need to get out of this mindset of champion A is really good in one role but only mediocre in another role so we need to buff the second role for absolutely no reason. I see plenty of Brand's go mid lane to a pretty good degree of success. 2) Morgana's Black Shield is not only for damage nullification. Almost every burst mage is reliant on cc'ing you first. Look at Veigar, Lux, Syndra, Vel'Koz etc. If you block any of this CC then chances are you will live and there's literally no mid lane champ that **couldn't care less** about being CC'ed.
: Only thing I'm going to say is we have a fundamental disagreement on interaction. All midlaners are good at waveclear to some point, Morg early typically needs to weave in autos and is in range of spells. Even when she gets to a point where W clears on its own if she chooses not to engage you plenty of champs will outpush her and her spacing gives you free reign to ward river and create setups. If she's going to just hide from you all game there's a lot she's not doing. And if she's engaged with you she's short ranged, fishing for easily dodgable Qs, has a spellshield that creates a baiting minigame, and an R thats timed and weak to dashes giving ample amounts of counterplay. Counterplay in itself is interaction. Maybe she's not the most engaging to play against but when champions like TF or Lissandra or Anivia exist she's far from the only one with a pattern of clear and hang under tower and most of these champions have exploitable weaknesses and meaningful interactions when they are in range.
Morgana's waveclear stems entirely from her targeted spell, whereas most other champions have their primary waveclear tied to linear skillshots which requires them to get much closer to the minion wave. Think Vel'Koz's W and Ahri's Q. Other targeted abilities, generally have other notable weaknesses. For example Zigg's E only affects one minion at a time, and since they travel in a linear pattern, generally doesn't deal too much damage until he gets a few items and a few levels into this ability, or how Lux has to auto attack minions affected by her passive at early levels to destroy them. The closest example to what Morgana's W does is Anivia's ultimate, which she doesn't get until level 6 and has to be relatively close to it, otherwise it ends (This example is kind of redundant as Anivia is often accused of having a similar level of un-interactivity as Morgana). I used the word 'fishing' because I agree, her Q is easily dodgeable, however, you only need one to deal significant damage to the enemy/kill them in the mid/late stages of the game. The thing she has over almost all the other champions you listed is that she has many more defensive tools at her disposal. The longest non-ultimate CC in the game and a spell shield that gives her the ability to block CC, which almost all mages require in the mid lane to deal their damage and plenty of junglers require CC to set up their ganks. I don't want them to nerf Morgana so hard that she is completely unviable in the mid lane, but I do think that, given the nature of her kit, she not only fits better as a support, but is generally very boring to face.
: No... You are still misunderstanding it. If you are a support, your gold from the support item affect the bounties of YOUR ENEMIES. Not your allies.
Which translates to a similar thing correct? You get more gold = enemies are worth less gold? And vice versa correct?
: You just read this post that told you how bounties work and yet you STILL manage to misunderstand... >ends up resulting in unnecessarily making the best Spellthiefs supports, such as Brand, Bard and Vel'Koz worth more gold No it doesn't. Support item gold doesn't increase the value of the support. Cs bounties are calculated from minion and monster gold of 4 enemies + the support item gold. Support items do not affect anything else. So how does that increase the gold value of supports exactly?
Which somehow feels even worse. Now your allies who are doing well are now more valuable just because you selected a champion that is exceptionally good at getting gold from spellthiefs?
: Upcoming Bounty Changes
I feel as though making support gold factor into this is another step in the wrong direction for player satisfaction and ends up resulting in unnecessarily making the best Spellthiefs supports, such as Brand, Bard and Vel'Koz worth more gold for no other reason than they were able to make better use of their support items.
: > [{quoted}](name=Toþykachu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4muhY2Rk,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-03-13T16:08:15.951+0000) > > I think you're pushing too hard for Morgana to be a midlaner and taking away significant parts of her power as a support to open up room for a niche playstyle is going to hurt Morgana in the long run as most mid lane players don't particularly enjoy playing as or against her. Morgana was a midlaner for years before becoming a support in later seasons. She's short ranged and limited, she's no more toxic than Annie or Veigar and doesn't compete with frustration levels of things like LeBlanc or Zoe. I could really make a list of more toxic kits than a spellshield and some hard cc. And its not niche, W is pretty pointless botlane other than proccing spellthiefs and was literally designed for her to exist as a mage. Also "Not fun to play against" is a poor metric given every champion is literally that. Some champions have more interaction or skill involved than others, but other than shutting down cc and movement Morgana is pretty easy to interact with. You even state in this thread black shield is easy to break so I think your frustration point is moot when that's literally the most frustrating thing for a mage to deal with. Champion diversity adds value. The only time it doesn't is when a champion is OP to a point where they're strong in multiple lanes due to having no real weakness. Being a strong support and a good mid counterpick doesn't hurt the game.
I am well aware that Morgana was designed as a mid laner, however just because she is much more powerful/popular as a support doesn't mean she isn't at least viable in the mid lane. Sure she's not massively powerful, but I'd definitely rather see Morgana mid than a Lee Sin top or Graves ADC, so let's try and avoid using phrasing that implies Morgana is unplayable as a mid laner. That's what I mean. Morgana mid lane is arguably the most un interactive lane opponents in the entire game. From level 1 she places her W and stays a safe distance away and in winning matchups she can fish for bindings. In losing matchups she can build super defensively and keep her binding available for whenever you might look to go aggressive, black shield and walk away. If Morgana mid is only able to exist as a specific counter pick to certain champions, she somewhat already is, then she would not be a good mid laner. Take old Kayle for example. She was arguably the single best counter pick to assassins in the game, however did this mean she was any more viable as a support as mid lane Morgana is now? Whilst I agree that having all champions be viable in as many roles as possible is generally a good thing, we simply are not at the point yet as so many champions are barely viable in one role.
: They will roam. Morgana can't stop them. If she tries to stop or follow Zed, he'll simply kill her. If she tries to stop or follow Talon, he'll simply kill her. And Yasuo? Yeah, he can't outroam Morgana nor has a kill pressure against her. Which is fine. He already massively outscales her: there's no reason he should _**also**_ have a lane advantage.
Morgana has some of the best wave clear in the game at early levels. Enemy laners outside of A-Sol and Taliyah should ever be in a position to roam without losing 2+ waves to the tower which is an extremely unappealing prospect when it's not even guaranteed that they'll be able to get the kill. If Morgana's first items are Seeker's and she has a defensive summoner then there's no way that Zed should be able to kill her if you decide to try and follow him and he wants to turn it around on you. Yasuo is a unique story as he is an extremely overloaded champion who has many strengths at all points in the game, however this isn't an issue he has soley in the Morgana matchup, this is an issue he has in almost all matchups. Morgana's late game scaling is generally tied to her adc. If she has a Kog'Maw/Jinx/Yi etc then her black shield is a massive problem when it comes to the late game. Damage isn't the only thing that scales well please remember that.
: Because every single champ you just mentioned has a gap closing mechanic that doesn't involve needing to get into range.... Maoki: Rooting ult. Sion: You know this one: R, and massively long range E slow through minions. Malphite steals move speed... I never said "Only." You did. What I did say is, they do not take off in lane until they have them. That doesn't exclude post lane.
Maokai ult is an absolutely awful engagement tool, it moves so slowly and is easily out manouvered simply by running away from it. It's best used after you initially engage onto the target, which by your logic is impossible to do on these champions since they can just stand out of range unless they have mobility boots. Malphite requires to be extremely close to an ally to steal their movement speed with his Q, but for some reason according to your logic, he doesn't need mobility boots to do so, because 'muh' reasons. But Leona needs mobi boots for what reason? If you're always standing out of range for he ultimate then you are almost certainly also standing out of range for exp and CS. Of course they gain more of an advantage in lane after completing their boots item, the same way every champion in the game, outside of Cassiopeia, gains an advantage from finishing their boots upgrade. Even champions like Janna and Lulu take mobi boots and they don't want play hyper aggressively in lane. Can they not reliably shield their adc until they have their boots upgrade? If you honestly don't have the ability to pressure the enemy bot lane early as Thresh, Morgana, Blitzcrank etc. Then you are actually playing them extremely poorly as a huge portion of their strength is their huge ability to snowball games early.
: Blitz also dominates as a top laner still. The reason he is played as a support is not because he's a poor laner. On the contrary. It's because in a solo lane he only helps himself. In a duo lane he basically can lane for two. He can make the bot's job, while getting his gold for free. This is a case of "he's just more powerful when helping others." Not "poor laner"
Hahaha right! I definitely see more Blitzcrank succeed in the too lane than Morgana does in the mid lane. It's honestly very difficult to take someone seriously if this is the stance they have.
Fargo79 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Toþykachu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4muhY2Rk,comment-id=00020001000000010000,timestamp=2019-03-13T22:56:22.134+0000) > > Precisely. Does Blitzcrank deserve to be massively buffed to make him a viable top laner. Morgana, by comparison, isn't even that weak of a mid laner. Well compared to most of the champs they have released over the last 2-4 seasons most of whom seem to be mid like Yas, Zed, Neeko, Zoey, Sylas,even reworked Irelia and Talon. all hand morg her ass in lane.. they have easy poke, low CD's, mobile as fuck, true damage, shields that buff HP, some dont even rely on mana.. so yes she does pale in comparison to most mid laners when it comes to trades and over all damage.. she can clear a wave sure.. but she still has to step up and lay down her W which over the laning phase will burn out her mana pool.. there is a reason why we are not seeing the older style mages mid anymore.. cause there are better mages to be played there or just play an assassin.. so those older mid mages now play in bot.. Morg, Malz, Brand, Lux, Zyra, Annie, Xerath, Vel Koz, yes u will see them mid every now and then,, but a majority of their plays u will see them in the bot lane as a support or kill lane support.. the only change hey need to nerf morg with is her hitbox on her snare.. it is very sketchy on how it hits.. almost as bad as the OLD Nid spears.
The thing about Morgana is that she has the ability to nullify the vast majority of mid lane match ups. She has the ability to endlessly shove waves from a relatively safe distance with her W. The only difference between a Morgana in a winning lane and a Morgana in a losing lane is her agency to fish for bindings. Against most of the mid lane champs you listed their ability to all in you is severely reduced if you manage to land a binding onto any of them. Even Yasuo who can windwall your binding has relatively low kill threat against a Morgana thanks to how difficult it should be for him to knock you up through your black shield. As you said, a lot of the older and more traditional mages are struggling to find a solid home in the current meta of League of Legends the only difference being that Morgana has a home in the support role whilst virtually all of the mages you listed do not.
: Blitz was also designed as a top laner :)
Precisely. Does Blitzcrank deserve to be massively buffed to make him a viable top laner. Morgana, by comparison, isn't even that weak of a mid laner.
: Leona does it for the same reason...... to catch up to a target..... don't pretend it's any different. And yeah. A good laner pretty much makes Blitz/Thresh useless until they have Mobis. It's called hiding behind minions.
Why does Leona need the movement speed to catch up and engage onto a target, but other divers and tanks do not? Maokai, Sion, Malphite etc. never build mobi boots and yet for some reason it is the only option on Leona? If you honestly think mobi boots are only purchased to help position better in lane then you're actually deluding yourself. Sure, you can position yourself behind minions to avoid things like Thresh and Blitz hooks, but saying that they have the inability to then move to threaten them in this position is honestly on you playing poorly, not the champion itself. If you legitimately think Mobi boots are only purchased for laning then it's a hilarious waste of an item.
: I don't think mid lane Morgana needed buffs, I just don't think she needs nerfs. If the mid Morg is pressing W and not interacting with her opponent then they aren't playing mid lane Morg right. She can get kills early 1v1 once she has her ult and she's a fantastic roamer. She's definitely more utility-focused as the game goes on, but she's fine, she doesn't need buffs or nerfs. She relies on her W a lot to even function as a mid laner, as it IS her primary way to farm (along with her slow particle auto attacks) and also her primary source of damage. I just think Riot should be more careful nerfing that. They could nerf her shield early to make it easier to break, but they won't do that because that would nerf the support Morgs. Riot just feels a little too trigger happy on the midlane Morg nerfs and extremely hesitant on anything that might affect support Morg.
I haven't seen mid lane Morgana be particularly problematic, but at the end of the day, Riot are the ones with the complete stats and they seem to think mid lane Morgana is out of line and worthy of the nerfs so it's likely true. They're only small nerfs so it shouldn't make her unplayable in the mid lane. Though I definitely agree that they're being perhaps too quick to nerf her, since other champions seem to be avoiding nerfs *cough Riven* despite being much more problematic.
: > [{quoted}](name=Toþykachu,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=F20T2R5A,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-13T18:12:32.555+0000) > > Almost definitely. Unlike our own world, Runeterra actively does have Gods and great celestial beings that actively interact in the world of Runeterra. It would be stupid for them to ignore what they can see with their eyes. The difference here being, unlike the other gods of Runeterra, we cannot definitively prove that this one exists. We've seen no signs of neither it existing, nor its influence on the world. The only references to this "God", to my knowledge, is these small throwaway quotes I've found. It could very well be an entirely fictional god that the Piltovans/Zaunites have made up themselves.
Oh there's very possibly a pantheon of Gods worshipped exclusively by the Piltovians and Zaunites, but it's very unlikely that they're athiests considering they live in a world actively visited by beings that literally create stars.
: Do Piltovans/Zaunites worship God?
Almost definitely. Unlike our own world, Runeterra actively does have Gods and great celestial beings that actively interact in the world of Runeterra. It would be stupid for them to ignore what they can see with their eyes.
Saianna (EUNE)
: don't nitpick cause I use wrong word. I meant to write something along the lines of your last sentence in first post.
: > [{quoted}](name=Toþykachu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4muhY2Rk,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-03-13T16:08:15.951+0000) > > I think you're pushing too hard for Morgana to be a midlaner and taking away significant parts of her power as a support to open up room for a niche playstyle is going to hurt Morgana in the long run as most mid lane players don't particularly enjoy playing as or against her. It’s like you’re forgetting the role she was originally intended for...?
So do all champions who have found a new home in a role they weren't initially conceived for deserve to be buffed to go back to that role? Should we buff Corki, Graves, Vi etc? This whole argument is baseless anyway as she is a perfectly playable mid laner anyway. She just isn't a particularly strong mid laner as her new primary home is as a support. The nerfs she has on the PBE is because she is actually very strong in the mid lane right now, not because she's strong as a support.
Saianna (EUNE)
: > You can make this argument for almost every champion that has ever been nerfed ever. That's the POINT. You made this argument. "just look how busted jayce is because he has more HP than olaf!1". Jayce has to have more HP, because of environment he's used in. TOP lane is for (or was for) heavyweight champions. So he needs to be sturdier. He is not an ADC. He can poke from range, but it's not even close to what ADC do with their AAs. I'm not saying Jayce shouldn't be nerfed, but dude, stop with the bs. And hanshinshinshin. He's like blind man throwing infinite amount of darts. At some point he will hit a bullseye. Then everyone gasps in shock and the rumor spreads "how smart hanshinshinshinshin is", while NOONE remembers the other times when he's wrong af. I totally get that you aren't his fan, but you just repeat one of his many bullshits while he rages like little kid while someone beats his butt purple in TOP.
Literally nowhere did I say Jayce is overpowered soley because he has higher HP than an Olaf and this HP advantage is the only reason he is as strong as he is. Just that it's an unnecessary portion of power that contradicts the rest of his kit and would make a lot of sense to shave off. The whole Olaf point was to show just how crazy his base stats are at the moment and how nerfing that aspect of his kit is completely justified. Again I very much do not like Hashinshin but as you said, in his sea of lies and hyperbole, he has made a pretty valid point and as a blind man he hit one bullseye.
: I find plenty of Morgana mains actually prefer her midlane. That could just be my own experience, but Morg was definitely designed originally as a mage, not a support. I can remember back in S2 when she was basically permabanned, not for support but for mid. So I don't think it would necessarily hurt her in the long run to balance towards mid. She is honestly pretty fair, since a lot of her kit hinges on an extremely slow and blockable skill shot, plus she has to get in close with her ult for full kill potential.
Plenty of champions were designed for one role, only to find more success in another and to then be subsequently balanced around that role. Vi was originally a top laner. Corki was originally an ADC. I'm sure plenty of Morgana mains prefer her mid and I'm sure plenty of Morgana mains prefer her support, but neither of us can claim definitively what all Morgana mains want. I'm not sure Riot could feasibly buff mid lane Morgana without resulting in either massively buffing support Morgana or making her a mid laner that just presses W on the minion wave and doesn't interact with her lane opponent
: You've been indoctrined into a different League than I have. 1) Level 1 shield is usually good enough for most bot lane applications other than fighting a mage support. They do not max Shield for CC immunity. They max it for the absorption/frequency later game. 2) Morgana used to be 70+% Mid. 3) Mobis for wards is TOTALLY why Thresh takes them. Or Blitz...... Right..... (Not that they are useless in lane until they buy them or anything.....)
- Breaking through Morgana's rank 1 Black Shield is hilariously easy for anyone that deals magic damage. As a Bard main I am literally able to break the first part of the Black Shield with 1 Q only for the second part of the Q to hit a wall/unit and subsequently stun the target. If a Bard can do that then literally every mage can also do so. Maxing Black Shield guarentees you the highest amount of potential to block CC vs not maxing it first. - Morgana mid was never very enjoyable to play against as she fell into the role of endlessly pressing W on minion waves and having multiple defenders options to stifle aggressive plays. Not to mention how back in the early days of League there was no real meta, you could simply play anything anywhere. I'm sure after they realised how much better Morgana was as a support they made the decision that they should primarily try to balance her around that role instead. - You're right! She must buy Mobis soley so she can position better to get off Dark Bindings in lane, less they be blocked by minions. Must be the same reason why almost every support goes mobi boots, even if they don't have their abilities blocked by minions (Leona) or rely on skillshots (Alistar). I think you're playing a very different game to me if you think Theesh and Blitz are useless in lane. Mobis for warding and roaming is why almost every support takes them, not just Thresh and Morgana...
Saianna (EUNE)
: Then how about the fact Jayce has no ultimate, while almost every other champion has? I mean, if we compare bullshit apples to oranges, then lets do it thoroughly. Or are we just "but but but hashin said..."
You can make this argument for almost every champion that has ever been nerfed ever. I don't like Hashinshin, but I do agree with how strange it is that a champion played almost entirely in a ranged form has similar base stats to melee champions. We could easily sit here and break down what exactly makes him OP or not, but the simple truth is that he's overbearing right now and a nerf in this direction makes a lot of sense whilst not taking too much away from him.
: 1) Be careful when trying to speak for others. Morgana was LOVED as a mid laner by those who played her there. I'm sure a lot will speak up in this thread. I personally Mid/Jung/Top/Support her and have over 3.4 Million Mastery between accounts. 2) Q is rarely a support tool. Minions are in the way most of the entire lane, which is why support feels compelled to get Mobis on her. 2 seconds isn't going to hurt it as a support tool for anything but being able to miss and forgive. If anything, a damaging W is more of a support tool, because it zones where they walk, is easier to hit. 3) 10 detracted shield absorption from her E isn't going to break her support role. It still blocks the CC, some damage, and the AP scaling on it is still quite large. If anything, right now, most Morg supports feel forced to max it, because the rest of her kit is unreliable in bot lane.
- Of course the people who played her enjoyed playing her to some capacity, I never claimed otherwise, that would be like saying someone who plays basketball probably enjoys playing basketball. I'm saying that mid laners in general are not thrilled about Morgana being a mid laner as she is relatively boring to play and essentially becomes a waveclear machine in most games. *press w on the minion wave. See if you can fish for a Q. Walk away if not. Repeat* - Almost all supports go mobis to help with warding and roaming and Morgana is no exception. Of course it helps her position better to land bindings, but generally not why supports go for mobis. 2 seconds isn't a huge increase but it would be a notable addition for the better Morgana players who are able to consistently land their Q's. - Again, it's not a massive nerf, but it's still unnecessarily taking power away from her supportive power to push her into, at best, a niche role. A lot of Morgana's max E first because a lot of the time the CC immunity is why you picked Morgana in the first place.
Saianna (EUNE)
: Yea, and please reminder me, from the 2 which one of them has built in lifsteal?
Regardless of why Olaf has such a low health pool the point still stands - a ranged champion shouldn't be given similar stats to a melee champion.
: Meddler: You want to nerf Morgana? Here's How.
I think you're pushing too hard for Morgana to be a midlaner and taking away significant parts of her power as a support to open up room for a niche playstyle is going to hurt Morgana in the long run as most mid lane players don't particularly enjoy playing as or against her.
: > [{quoted}](name=Toþykachu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tEQNFjOG,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-03-13T10:38:19.461+0000) > > That's because she was specifically designed as a support and is balanced around this role. She is not going to be a viable solo laner until she receives significantly more buffs. Ant thats where u are wrong, she is listed in Tank, not in Support. She is only played as Support because You can proc her Passive
There currently is no defined 'support' role. She is listed as a Tank more specifically in the subclass - Vanguard, along with other engage heavy supports such as Alistar and Nautilus.
: > [{quoted}](name=Kanzler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tEQNFjOG,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-03-13T10:20:25.859+0000) > > Leona really doesnt need buffs. i know that most people think that shes good right now, and thats true for support Leona. But if u want to go on a Solo lane its hard with her. i think the Q buffs dont neet to be that high, 20 / 45 / 70 / 95 / 120 would be goot to, and maybe aren´t that necessary, but ith should be possible for her to proc Sunlight for her viability on solo lanes. Also if u allow her to proc her Passive it wouldn´t be a buff for Support Leona.
That's because she was specifically designed as a support and is balanced around this role. She is not going to be a viable solo laner until she receives significantly more buffs.
Moody P (NA)
: I think you could stand to lower her HP regen again given that she has more access to readily available sustain thanks to Conqueror and DD which, unlike the old days of Ravenous Hydra, work to good effect on her spells and of which Conqueror is NOT reduced by her AOE heavy kit. So even when she doesn't shield properly thanks to her healing and buffed regen it's hard to trade her out of lane. Add to that she stacks Conqueror faster than almost anyone else and its easy to see why she wins trades so easily now I don't even mind her damage, honestly, it's more that it gets to a pooint where she's ridiculously difficult to kill between her sustain and her shield spam that unless you either lock her down completely or hit her with bullshit amounts of damage.
And given that the vast majority of CC abilities rely on landing a skill shot, locking her down can be a real challenge considering the insane number of dashes she has.
TuRB0ooo (EUW)
: New Skins for pyke!?
He is a very new champion and already got a new skin recently. Sorry but it's unlikely he'll get anything for a while.
UrPalAl (NA)
: Jayce nerfs are missing the point
Whilst you're right in saying Jayce won't be any more fun to face at early levels, it at least opens up some avenues for you to fight back. As Hashinshin pointed out, current Jayce has higher HP than Olaf at level 1. How is that fair for a champion who spends most of his time in ranged form.
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Toþykachu

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