: Yes, it IS clearly informing. You just gave proof that riot told us all beforehand, and as such we as players cannot blame them if we didn't knoe this information. They FLAT OUT told it to us. If one is too lazy to look at the details behind preseason before jumping in, that was their own decision, and decisions have consequences. If one didn't see this news when it was stated, as you have shown, riot can't be blamed for that. They told us beforehand, that is a fact. If they really wanted to hide it from us they would have not said it at all. They DID tell us, so we WERE informed beforehand, if WE didn't see even tho riot DID tell us, how is that riot's fault? Just go to surrender@20 regularly to be up to date on league news and rioter comments, its simple, easy, and not that hard. I check the latest updates on the site before I load up league, so I am always kept up to date. Why others wouldn't do the same despite the consequences is beyond me.
Again, informing in a mere paragraph out of a whole FAQ (enormous btw as this preseason has introduced quite a lot of changes) is not sufficient. Not giving the topic a spot on the "new changes" of Rito's website is a royal fuck up, and they fucked up. Plus Surrender at 20 didn't talk about the Orange Essence change. I do check it quite regularly and either I missed it or it wasn't discussed at all.
Varissar (EUW)
: An honest opinion regarding the OE debacle: an open letter to reply Riot Cactopus
Thank you Riot for letting me know you care about feedback. Seeing you like to talk about miscelanea and not to debate about a serious topic, makes it quite clear that you don't care about your customers. I hereby declare that I won't spend nothing on this game (and future games, if ever). You were cool Riot but I cannot forgive the failures of the present using the good memories of the past. I won't accompany you to the path of damnation. Bye.
: And still, literally not a single person I see ever questions one thing. Is Riot REALLY losing money off of the Hextech system? We've never seen any statistics comparing the rewards players got from FREE Lootboxes compared to PURCHASED lootboxes. We all know people buy the lootboxes, most of us have done it too. We all know there are people who really want the Hextech-exclusive skins and spend an assload of money on lootboxes to get gemstones. My point is, for all we know Riot could have actually made more money than lost through implementing a lootbox system and could just be putting a teary-eyed fake ass facade saying "muh lost revenue muh too much free stuff from lootboxes". No. You have no proof that you've lost money through this system. Bring proof and we're cool. Until then, stop trying to puppy-eye us into believing that a multi-billion dollar company needs to gut down a system that would excite players to keep playing for chances of cool rewards and at the same time scam the people who buy your goddamn lootboxes.
Actually, It is a fair point. Are we really sure the Hextech system is making riot lose money or is it the other way around?
Dr Mercy (NA)
: Once again, I'd like to stress the fact that no matter what you get from the "lootbox"/level up chest, you are always going to get close to the amount of time spent playing of IP back. Orange Essence, completely agree, but honestly, there is still a very large difference between EA's progression system (Which actually increased the time to earn things without boxes) as opposed to Riot's (which has stay relatively the same/faster). Not sure about the revenue comment, unless you're referencing my other comment, but there's a difference between making more of a profit, and keeping your bottom line. The situation about lootboxes is precarious, but no rights (What do you mean by rights?) are being trampled. I know people want to go on a crusade against Lootboxes, but I think we should make sure we know the difference between Jerusalem and Constantinople
> [{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7vU4XZuz,comment-id=000b00010000,timestamp=2017-12-07T10:38:30.783+0000) > > Orange Essence, completely agree, but honestly, there is still a very large difference between EA's progression system (Which actually increased the time to earn things without boxes) as opposed to Riot's (which has stay relatively the same/faster). Again, I fear for the future of the game. Before preseason we had a currency we earned each played game using a mathematical formula without the need of a intermediary step. Preseason fused an obsolete currency with the normal currency, and that actually was a good decision. Implementing a system which requires you to level up to get a loot box to get "random" (with tweaked occurrence probabilities) shards to disenchant and get the new currency is absurd. Absurd because it adds additional steps, making complicated something that was simple. And If you do complicate simple things you either: do it for the sake of changing things or you do it for an ulterior motive. And this affects progression iteself, perhaps not at the same level of EA's Battlefront II (I do not think they are, never have said they are), but it sets a dangerous precept. Making EVERY PLAYER get trough the Hextech crafting system to get something as simple as the normal virtual currency is a declaration of intentions in my book. Moreover, all the previous events for the last months have been promoting loot boxes (via tokens and other items) and the premium "event passes". And I am extremely worried of the direction of the game. > [{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7vU4XZuz,comment-id=000b00010000,timestamp=2017-12-07T10:38:30.783+0000) > Not sure about the revenue comment, unless you're referencing my other comment, but there's a difference between making more of a profit, and keeping your bottom line. The situation about lootboxes is precarious, but no rights (What do you mean by rights?) are being trampled. > I was referencing the revenue comments of Riot Cactopus himself. We all know that Riot is a business and they need to make money, but there are ways and ways to do so. Why not licensing new IPs, expand their universe through multiple media and such (it is just an example, I won't dwell much into it because it is an offtopic)instead? And we should not forget about the publishing rights, the Esports fees, the publicity rents... Regarding the "consumer rights", I know what I signed for when I accepted League's TOUs, but even then you cannot expect to devalue people's inversions without a critical claim been risen. And here we are, being vocal about being fucked over. As a last note, I am not totally against the changes Riot wants to push forward regarding OE; I am disgusted, disappointed, frustrated, angered at Riot for being so obscure regarding the changes. They gave little to no information about it and we don't know the exact motives nor we care. But we have been trampled as costumers. And I can tell you I won't spend nor a single dime if Riot treats their costumers like this. All I ask for is good will to approach the issue and a solution that comes from a FAIR TREAT OF THE COSTUMER. PS: If I've overstepped in my wording, don't take it personal, wasn't my intention. I really appreciate well reasoned feedback as opposed to the usual ad-hominem.
: I'm still a bit confused about what gives orange essence items. 1)Did 2017 capsules have the chance to give skins shards (other than the ww and twitch one)? And like the other post said we are getting skin shards through honor capsules? 2)Do level up capsules have a chance to give skin shards/emotes? (for normal leveling up and the milestones) 3)Do chests still drop champion shards? 4)How frequent will events be? I've read all the stuff with OE and I'm still just confused what gives it and what doesn't. Thanks.
1) No, but Riot Cactopus mentioned we can expect more orange essence flux from honor capsules, which is (at the moment) an utter lie. 2) Just emotes and just in the milestones. 3) Yes they do, effectively diluting the value of normal chests. 4) Unknown, but the "free" stuff Riot is going to "give" us will be locked behind tired ass missions. And of course, you can buy your premium event ticket with RP for more "free?" stuff.
: I disagree with the fact that the OE changes were poorly communicated. It WAS in the preseason FAQ. If people were too lazy to read that to know the details of preseason that is their own fault, not riot.
By FQA: >*IP & Blue Essence >Are you making any changes to the way disenchanting shards works? >**Since you'll be getting more shards thanks to the new leveling system (and with other recent changes to honor and events), we'll tune down the relative value of the essence you get from disenchanting shards of all types—champ shards, skin shards, and ward skin shards.** >In the current system, for example, disenchanting a champ shard will get you about a third of the BE you need to buy a champ at that shard's tier. In the new system it'll get you 20% of the way there. Also, with so many more champ shards in the system, we need to remove the ability to reroll them into permanent champs—but we’ll occasionally sell mystery champions for blue essence. For these reasons, you should go ahead and reroll or disenchant any shards you don't want to upgrade before preseason hits so you can get the most essence possible out of them. >To make up for essence drop rate changes, we'll tune the way loot boxes work to increase the amount of skins you'll get from them. We'll also add "bad luck protection," so you won't ever go on long streaks without getting a skin shard or a gemstone from chests. Do you think this is "clearly informing the costumer"? A miserable paragraph in a IP AND BLUE ESSENCE TOPIC? But hey, it was clearly outspoken to the community. It was accessible beyond doubt. No one would have missed it between all the FQA. EDIT: I just wanted to say I am going to dwell into all the propaganda regarding the preseason, because surely I will find a nicely done, clear and concise announcement regarding OE drop in value right, right?
Dr Mercy (NA)
: Okay, hol' up. The Riot quote and EA quote have two *wayyyyyyy* different contexts. **Riot**: Talking about a purely cosmetic system, which branches from Events to lootboxes. **EA**: A 60 Dollar game that locks non-cosmetic game characters, upgrades, weaponry, and vehicles, along with cosmetics, behind loot boxes or an extreme time investment. Riot is talking about how free loot is earned, EA is talking about how they want in-game progression to feel. They are extraordinarily different. Rest of your post is p. good tho.
The reason behind matching those quotes was to make people aware of what might become of Riot if we stay silent about being forcefully fed loot boxes interbreed with the progression system (aka the Blue Essence fiasco) and not being vocal about the devaluation of a payed proxy currency (aka the Orange Essence disenchant fiasco). Riot does have revenue, Riot has WAYS to make more revenue. Bleeding out your costumers, trampling over their rights is going to get people despise them in the long run, and unfortunately I'm not optimistic of the future ahead. Riot's choices in the last years, specially in the last months (perhaps it has something to do with Tenecent's influence) has changed into a shadow of what it was.
Rioter Comments
: about Orange Essence...
It doesn't feel right because it is not right. They nerfed the OE disenchant value out of the blue and the main issue here is that a lot of people wasn't able to disenchant it pre-preseason because it was POORLY COMMUNICATED. As such a lot of people has been fucked over nothing.
426287 (NA)
: Remove champion shards from hextech chests
As I've mentioned before, they nerfed the disenchant OE value in exchange for... wait. NOTHING. And yet here we are. And They still try to feed us that "Hey, we have a pitty timer system and a double chest change incorporated" and we aren't talking about it. And that's because what we should be talking is how OE nerf is just unaceptable, how the chests are fucked over with a loot of useless cosmetics (the introduction of emotes into the ecuation) AND the keeping of champion shards, which makes essentially "The house always wins" scenario, comparable with the zero in the roulette. Riot, get your shit straight and start delivering in the OE regards, as there is quite a lot of people pissed at what you did.
Dr Drevan (EUW)
: Yeah I totally get all this but there's one issue. The faq didn't say that orange essence was getting changed. In fact I think it explicitly said we only need to disenchanted champ shards. I'm pretty sure it said that we needn't do that for skin shards. Or just heavily implied that it was champ shards only. I'm sure because in a thread elsewhere someone was saying disenchant your skin shards changes are coming (someone on another site not a rioters) and I went to check and came away sure we didn't need to. The changes are fine but the way they happened feel like a shafting. All I'd request would be if you can make shards gained prior to the change retain their original value..... That's at least something. I know I had a few high value ones that I explicitly didn't disenchant because I was sure from the pre season faq that I didn't have to. Again completely under stand why the change. Just the way it was done was poorly communicated compared to the rest.
Isn't curious how one of the most important pieces of information was "poorly communicated compared to the rest"? I have yet to see a Rioter talk regarding the communication of the OE change. They can talk about the reasons of the nerf, or the ideas behind it, yet they never talk about the most important thing: **WHY THE F----K WAS IT SO POORLY COMMUNICATED COMPARED WITH ALL THE OTHER CHANGES?**. Even in the patch notes of the pre-season **AREN'T INCLUDED THOSE NERFS** Now, @Riot Cactopus, care to elaborate on the matter or in the very least, to confirm you are looking into the issue?
: Did the blue essence disenchant decrease with the update too? Seems kinda small too. {{sticker:cass-cry}}
> [{quoted}](name=BoNaFiDeOuTkAsT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z5njzRPm,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2017-11-22T23:39:35.938+0000) > > Did the blue essence disenchant decrease with the update too? Seems kinda small too. > {{sticker:cass-cry}} Yes, but that change was widely advertised and communicated. The issue here is the ninja-nerf of the OE value. It was purposely avoided as a conversation topic for most of the announcements aside from a small phrase at the FQA . They tried their luck with this and we as a community, as a consumers shouldn't be complacent and applaud Riot's decision here
: Here’s [a really in-depth response on this I posted on the boards.](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/fRZopjhE-bring-back-the-old-value-of-orange-disenchant-riot?comment=0009) TL;DR: We made some changes that’ll make the nerf not hurt as bad. But the nerf is in part about making sure we aren’t taking another big revenue hit right at the same time we’re making runes free. To be fully transparent, we’re not trying to make OE even out to the same amounts it was at before.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=BQed8FWz,comment-id=002c0000,timestamp=2017-11-23T04:02:22.202+0000) > > Here’s [a really in-depth response on this I posted on the boards.](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/fRZopjhE-bring-back-the-old-value-of-orange-disenchant-riot?comment=0009) > > TL;DR: We made some changes that’ll make the nerf not hurt as bad. But the nerf is in part about making sure we aren’t taking another big revenue hit right at the same time we’re making runes free. To be fully transparent, we’re not trying to make OE even out to the same amounts it was at before. We can totally understand that, but Riot FAILED terribly communicating the changes to the OE and quite a lot of people felt it isn't worth to spend money on Hextech anymore. I would say your way to "avoid taking a revenue hit" has actually allowed you to take it anyway, as a lot of those trusty costumers feel scammed, lied and used. For the sake of transparancy and good will I would suggest two things: 1. Revert temporarily the changes to the OE disenchant values and announce clearly that after some time, the change of the OE will be permanent. 2. Give the difference of the pre-pre-season OE disenchant values with the pre-season OE disenchant values as OE to compensate for the change to those who were uninformed due to Riot poorly communicating the issue. I would say those two would help to erase all the frustration and negative a lot of customers have recently felt regarding the matter while allowing you to keep the OE changes for your own economic and business direction.
: Leveling and Rewards - Improvements to Milestone Emotes, Capsules, & FWotD
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=BQed8FWz,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-11-22T18:54:43.810+0000) > Alright, so that's it for this week's update! We'll return at some point in the coming weeks to talk about any other adjustments to the leveling and rewards. Hit us up in the comments below and we'll answer any questions you've got. Thank you for the feedback regarding the BE system mon' I would like to ask an innocent question: Is the OE devaluation fiasco being discussed currently and looked upon by Riot? Thank you for your time
: I don't know what else to say. Personally, I wish Riot would do away with shards, OE, lootboxes, and all that crap. Maybe keep hextech crafting for events, but take out all the lootboxes.
> [{quoted}](name=DarkKatalyst,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z5njzRPm,comment-id=000f00000000,timestamp=2017-11-21T00:34:32.410+0000) > > I don't know what else to say. Personally, I wish Riot would do away with shards, OE, lootboxes, and all that crap. Maybe keep hextech crafting for events, but take out all the lootboxes. I can feel you. I wish they didn't feed us up our throat with the loot boxes for so long, but they have. And they have allowed addiction to run rampant as more players gamble through Loot Boxes. Moreover they have, out of the blue, fucked those gamblers through the devaluation of OE. Unfortunately, it is a change that affect us all and if it was only targeted at the mastery S chests, I would be fine to it. But in its current form, it hits people's wallets and that good sir/madam, is unacceptable from a consumer point of view. As a final note, I do think your suggestion to limit hextech crafting to events is a fair one. But I highly doubt Riot is going to implement it.
: Do you realize the position you're asking this from? League is a free to play game that primarily makes money off of cosmetic items. Riot decreased the numbers on orange essence to make more money off the primary way they can. Would you prefer they expand lootboxes or other anti-consumer elements? They have a financial target to meet, and if Riot is decreasing orange essence, it's because they forecast preseason preventing them from meeting their target. I fully support their changes to orange essence if it means keeping out predatory practices to fund Riot.
> [{quoted}](name=DarkKatalyst,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z5njzRPm,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-11-20T18:00:37.536+0000) > > Would you prefer they expand lootboxes or other anti-consumer elements? > > But wait.... They are currently expanding on lootboxes and more anti-consumer shenanigans. Or do you think the new BE system which forces a player to get through the Chest system was a "mere coincidence" ? Or the "events" they promote with special chests, tokens and similar stuff? The disenchant devalue was predatory not by nature, but by omitting to properly inform players. You got that? Cool. A dang lot did not. If they were trying to get people to know about it they failed horribly at it. And as a side note, in my opinion the new BE system is predatory too as in its initial iteration preys on the frustration of the players towards the reward system. > [{quoted}](name=DarkKatalyst,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z5njzRPm,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-11-20T18:00:37.536+0000) >I fully support their changes to orange essence if it means keeping out predatory practices to fund Riot. I would if that would stop Riot from using predatory practices but guess what, they are already here. And I doubt they are going nowhere.
Scuttle (NA)
: The reason the new runes are a revenue drop is because before there were two things to spend IP on: runes and champions. If you wanted runes but also wanted a high priced champ, you'd be more likely to buy it with RP. Now that champions are one of the only ways to spend BE, people are less likely to buy them with RP.
> [{quoted}](name=Scuttle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z5njzRPm,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2017-11-20T14:56:50.028+0000) > > The reason the new runes are a revenue drop is because before there were two things to spend IP on: runes and champions. If you wanted runes but also wanted a high priced champ, you'd be more likely to buy it with RP. Now that champions are one of the only ways to spend BE, people are less likely to buy them with RP. And thus the new BE system was created. Using a delayed reward system based on RNG is a perfect response to frustrate the players into buying RP to buy champions instead. And the latter assumption seems to resonate with quite a bunch of players.
Dr Mercy (NA)
: It's a *really* big assumption for you to say that IP Boost sales only accounted for 1% of their profits. Other than the fact you have no way of knowing that for sure, that's not even where they were getting their profit from. [Here's a statement from Ghostcrawler. ](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/RlNQkO39-buying-runes-between-now-and-preseason) https://i.gyazo.com/d50293375e32882319dc4ee3d78fbd71.png The loss income comes from Champion's bought with RP due to the majority of IP going towards Runes instead. Unless you want to throw *another* baseless claim with no actual proof behind it, you have no way of knowing just how much money that made Riot. So yeah, they could be lying as well, but doesn't mean you can make a point saying "Oh that didn't make them that much profit", because you have no actual proof to prove that. You're also looking at this from a Consumer perspective. "1%" of lost sales may not seem like a lot to you, but for a ~~small indie~~ big company it is a significant loss. No company likes losing their bottom line, as they're always aiming for growth, be it more product or more customers. And while it may be only a "1%" loss, that loss of profits can become much larger on a long term outlook. That "1%" doesn't account for future new players of the game, so that 1% could become a 2%, maybe a 4%, though that is all entirely dependent on player growth. Feel free to call me a Shill or whatever, but I'm just trying to put the perspective of a Business into the argument. I have no personal qualm in this matter, mainly because I'm not disenchanting or buying Loot crates, but I want to add in this one last thing. Vlad once experienced a drop in Winrate, due to a nerf being in the Patch notes, but not actually making it into the Patch itself. Perception is an incredible variable, be it the feeling of the BE system or a Nerf. Asking people to adjust to something new should be taken seriously, because feelings are a strong factor in our decision making. How we perceive something doesn't always line up with reality, and that needs to be something we're aware of.
> [{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z5njzRPm,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-11-20T01:26:38.287+0000) > > It's a *really* big assumption for you to say that IP Boost sales only accounted for 1% of their profits. Other than the fact you have no way of knowing that for sure, that's not even where they were getting their profit from. [Here's a statement from Ghostcrawler. ](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/RlNQkO39-buying-runes-between-now-and-preseason) > > https://i.gyazo.com/d50293375e32882319dc4ee3d78fbd71.png > > The loss income comes from Champion's bought with RP due to the majority of IP going towards Runes instead. Unless you want to throw *another* baseless claim with no actual proof behind it, you have no way of knowing just how much money that made Riot. So yeah, they could be lying as well, but doesn't mean you can make a point saying "Oh that didn't make them that much profit", because you have no actual proof to prove that. > > You're also looking at this from a Consumer perspective. "1%" of lost sales may not seem like a lot to you, but for a ~~small indie~~ big company it is a significant loss. No company likes losing their bottom line, as they're always aiming for growth, be it more product or more customers. And while it may be only a "1%" loss, that loss of profits can become much larger on a long term outlook. That "1%" doesn't account for future new players of the game, so that 1% could become a 2%, maybe a 4%, though that is all entirely dependent on player growth. > > Feel free to call me a Shill or whatever, but I'm just trying to put the perspective of a Business into the argument. I have no personal qualm in this matter, mainly because I'm not disenchanting or buying Loot crates, but I want to add in this one last thing. Vlad once experienced a drop in Winrate, due to a nerf being in the Patch notes, but not actually making it into the Patch itself. > > Perception is an incredible variable, be it the feeling of the BE system or a Nerf. Asking people to adjust to something new should be taken seriously, because feelings are a strong factor in our decision making. How we perceive something doesn't always line up with reality, and that needs to be something we're aware of. Hey, nice to have an upfront dialogue in contrast of just a _ad hominem_ fallacy being the norm around here. Credit where credit is due, it was a bold statement claiming that the IP boost sales accounted for 1% of their total sales. It was indeed a baseless claim, however we don't have any official numbers to play with so bringing the topic out load will undoubtedly bring baseless claims. In my original post the first thing I mention (might as well say "I assume") regarding the "revenue hit" was champion purchasing using RP, I am grateful you provided some evidence about it using Ghostcrawler as a reference. However, I do think this whole topic regarding "runes reforged affecting revenue" is just a smoke bomb to cover for more significant changes into the system. Accordingly, the community have been vocal about the OE changes or the perceived reward of the new BE. And while it is true that Perception is a subjective and complicated variable, it does account for multiple mathematic testing. A**nd when it seems likely (WARNING, bold statement)that frustration and dissatisfaction with the per match currency does boost the RP purchasing as a shortcut, then we need to address the issue seriously. ** **And I do appreciate that you are trying to put the perspective of a business into the argument as it is indeed required to continue in this dialogue between us users and Riot.** But what I am trying to be vocal about is the users. Riot has means to defend themselves and to find alternative funds if they do require so. Us users need to be vocal about any trampling of our rights.** Was the OE change necessary and/or fair? Perhaps, but the user base REQUIRED to be informed 24/7 for a couple months**. There is a whole dang lot that didn't knew about the changes, and they are screwed. Specially the ones who spent real cash into Hextech crafting. **And even from a business perspective, when you devalue something your client payed you for (don't care about the reason), without even properly communicating it, then it starts to become a huge problem.** And if you add more salt to the wounds by saying that it was all for the money... Look, we all know Riot is a business. But even if they really want to give us more skin shards and in order for them to "compensate" for the revenue hit they had to nerf the OE disenchant value, **they could have done all of that WHEN THE ACTUAL IMPLEMENTATION OF THOSE FREE SKIN EVENTS BEGIN!** And at this point, I can agree to disagree. Riot did it out of greed. They have all the rights to change the rules of their game anytime soon (Yes, it is in LoL's Terms of Use), but when money is involved, any change must be clearly stated and discussed. T**hem talking PR bullshit about "free rewards soon™ "(WARNING; bold statement ahead) probably locked behind tiring and half-baked mission events does not account for the significant nerf a lot of people felt rewarding where they spent money. **
Rioter Comments
Apex ADC (NA)
: A summary of all the issues (according to the players) for Riot.
Add the orange the orange essence disenchant devaluation and we are gold
: Hey Cactopus I am insanely curious as to why you give people 3 champions instead of just giving them blue essence worth those 3 champions. Could you explain the logic behind forcing champions people may not like or ever play instead of giving the blue essence required to buy champions of equal or lesser value?
> [{quoted}](name=OneFreeSkin,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc, discussion-id=hAaYMrEs,comment-id=00c9,timestamp=2017-11-15T06:45:26.124+0000) > > Hey Cactopus I am insanely curious as to why you give people 3 champions instead of just giving them blue essence worth those 3 champions. Could you explain the logic behind forcing champions people may not like or ever play instead of giving the blue essence required to buy champions of equal or lesser value? Because they wan't everything to get trough the loot box system. People with gambling addiction and vulnerable users such as teenagers are forced to use the "Tatatachan" loot box to get their basic rewards. This often results in money spent by those people in the Hextech Chests to recreate the emotions after opening a random chest and getting a reward they might like. tl,dr: It is to manipulate people into using the loot box system and to predate upon it, earning more cash.
: .: DO NOT BUY/SPEND RP :.
**After poorly (and that's an euphemism) communicating the changes in OE, a lot of players who didn't expect it have been fucked over so hard for nothing.** Referencing Riot Cactopus statement from this [thread](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/fRZopjhE-bring-back-the-old-value-of-orange-disenchant-riot?show=flat) > [{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-11-12T18:53:04.273+0000) > This orange essence thing is a spicy one but I'll take my best shot at addressing it. The most honest answer it comes down to is that we wanna be able to spread out orange essence type loot and rewards across multiple systems without having to take an additional huge revenue hit at the same time that we're making runes free. Runes hitting revenue? Which? Last time I checked, runes could only be bought using IP before preseason.** Only the rune pages were eligible to buy using RP which, oh irony, Riot has kept from the old system (to keep their revenue of course)**. Perhaps Cactopus was talking about the "free rewards for old runes" and how it has impacted the champion's sales using RP? Perhaps he was referring to the IP boosts sales (which I doubt they represent a 1% of the total revenue)?** They delivered the BE compensation as a gift of "good will" and to avoid public backslash. And now they charge us for it? **A similar analogy here would be being a ONG association who charges their donees. > [{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-11-12T18:53:04.273+0000) >I don't want to make the promise that the orange essence amounts you get will “even out” or be the same as before. There’s way too much variance in the rates that people get OE from mastery and all the other systems for us to say that with a straight face. And the truth is the nerf to OE disenchant rates was significant. Now they are justifying the ninja-nerf with some PR bullshit about future events delivering free stuff(locked behind tiring and half-assed missions) while they admit THEY CAN'T ASSURE WE WILL GET EQUIVALENT REWARD OF THE SYSTEM BEFORE THE CHANGES. **Basically, they have broken something that was fixed, because rea$ons. ** > [{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-11-12T18:53:04.273+0000) >It’s more than we reigned it in to give ourselves wiggle room with these other systems. And honestly, the revenue hit from making runes free was a factor we considered as part of that. The goal is to make rewards systems that feel meaningful, rather than just constantly increasing the amount of stuff we give out every year because player expectations keep rising. I've already talked about the revenue hit from runes above, so I won't repeat myself. "Constantly increasing the amount of stuff we give out every year because player expectations keep rising"; dude, don't delude yourself trying to delude us. If we compare Riot the the other significant MOBAs of the market, you are the ones with the least "amount of stuff we give out every year". **The vast majority of sensible players don't ask for free stuff and we don't compare your politics that much with compentence BUT beware of using those arguments as they might backfire you quite hard**. > [{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-11-12T18:53:04.273+0000) >It feels icky when we start talking about protecting revenue and budgets and shit, but we’re open to feedback on this stuff. I see basically no one talking about the double drops or bad luck protection that we already added to the system, so I wanna wait for a while for people to get used to the changes. No, it doesn't. People get that you are here to make profit first, care about the game second. It is a business and we know it. **The important thing is what your business plan direction is, what consumer rights are you respecting and overall, how you treat your customer** Devaluing a virtual currency linked to people's wallets, poorly communicating it (almost as if you weren't even trying just to maximize your profit), changing a system into a RNG fest forcing players to get through the Loot Box system again and again... _**"Know them by their deeds"**_ or so they say. And don't get me started with the Double Frequency Up (RNG based) and Pitty Timer(rebated in this very thread as not really that amazing) features. We are grateful Riot. However, some features are still fucking the OE system: **Summoner icons and now Emotes (useless cosmetics) who cannot be disenchanted are included in the chests drops, champion shards are still included (even if the probability is reduced, which some people claim to disagree about) and after the BE rework they should be there in the first place. Honor reward system only delivers the ultrarare Grey WW and Medieval Twitch as cosmetics (no, the ward skin is part of your honor rewards which in the first place no one asked for)**. Does it seem to the player to have the OE devalued and because of that directly devalue their Chests purchases using RP? It may be the case, perhaps, probably, possibly that players feel cheated and frustrated. And more so because most of them didn't even realize what was going on till the preseason launched and checked their own skin tab. Look, it is even easier than it seems. If they really claim they wanted to lock content to balance the rewards output t**hey should have informed properly and repetitively before the change AND implement the change just before the new "reward event" or whatever hits live**. It wasn't that difficult and would have proven Riot's good will. After a shady slimy tactic of forfeit to provide more info, allow me to doubt it. You deserve the shitstorm you are facing, because you screw it big time here.
: The only way these companies will listen is with money, in this case lack of it. So your voices will be your wallets and time, do not give ether if you want to stand against these greedy parctices. They have no business to be in, well, any business, specially in the gaming industry.
I have yet to see another Rioter to board this topic again. They seem to give pieces of information here and there and to reference this very thread which only has one "clarification" and zero discussion/dialogue. Another declaration of intentions, specially after seeing this thread hit 320+ comments and 60.3K views.
: Hey, I'll pop in here to share our perspective. We're actually keeping a pretty close eye on the value of purchasable hextech chests. I don't mean to shock you, but we like selling chests. So we want it to feel good when you buy them. FWIW, here’s our basic take on it: yes, orange essence disenchant rates are nerfed. But we also made some other positive changes to the system. For example, it's now guaranteed that you'll never go three rolls in a row without getting a skin. (That's what we mean when we talk about bad luck protection). You also can now get chests inside of your chests—and you can even get bonus chests when you reroll skin shards. We're pretty sure these changes will make buying chests feel good even at their current price point. BUT, we could be wrong! If it turns out that these changes aren't as good as we thought, we'll continue to iterate. First we want to see how different players around the world are engaging with the chests and feeling about them before making changes. Edit: In case you missed it, [here was the previous thread where I talked about more of our thinking behind the OE nerfs](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/fRZopjhE-bring-back-the-old-value-of-orange-disenchant-riot?comment=0009).
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jtljrtyg,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-11-14T16:42:40.511+0000) > > Hey, I'll pop in here to share our perspective. > > We're actually keeping a pretty close eye on the value of purchasable hextech chests. I don't mean to shock you, but we like selling chests. So we want it to feel good when you buy them. > > FWIW, here’s our basic take on it: yes, orange essence disenchant rates are nerfed. But we also made some other positive changes to the system. For example, it's now guaranteed that you'll never go three rolls in a row without getting a skin. (That's what we mean when we talk about bad luck protection). You also can now get chests inside of your chests—and you can even get bonus chests when you reroll skin shards. We're pretty sure these changes will make buying chests feel good even at their current price point. > > BUT, we could be wrong! If it turns out that these changes aren't as good as we thought, we'll continue to iterate. First we want to see how different players around the world are engaging with the chests and feeling about them before making changes. > > Edit: In case you missed it, [here was the previous thread where I talked about more of our thinking behind the OE nerfs](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/fRZopjhE-bring-back-the-old-value-of-orange-disenchant-riot?comment=0009). Some people (and myself) perceive that if the negatives of the new system outweighs the positives. Good luck protection? Sure, though we should clarify if we include ward skins here too. Chance of getting a double chest? Neat, though adding more RNG to the RNG don't we?. Let's talk about the other issues: 1. Devalued Champ Shards still drop from the chests (perhaps the probability has been decreased but they shouldn't be there in the first place) in the new system, lowering the "skin shard probability" 2. Emotes added to the "useless cosmetic" tag in Loot Boxes opening alongside with summoner icons. Those make it difficult to hit a skin shard. 3. RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG. The Hextech Chest is based on way more RNG than other games and media. The basic chest can reward Emotes, Summoner Icons, Ward Skins, Champion Shards and Champion Skin Shards. Guess what, we have more than 500 different items in total. The chance of hitting the one you might like is so minimal that it is not worth trying. Just add here the "reroll 3 to get a permanent" mechanic and we get the true heir of casino's roulettes. I am sure no one with an addictive personality will get drawn to this, not even one. 4. Honor rewards are just key fragments or BE, aside from the ultrarare Grey WW and Medieval Twitch. Perhaps in the future that might change, but we talk about the present and past here. If we were in that "future", we would have had a different conversation. 5. Forcing the Loot Box system into players through BE gain after leveling up, the equivalent of gaining IP trough matches, is a declaration of intentions. You are trying to get people into the system, to use it naturally and get used to it. It's hard not seeing EA's or Activision Blizzard's shadow here. The only difference here is that you try to listen every now and then. 6. Ties with point 5. Stop talking about those awesome new ideas to deliver free stuff. We don't want free stuff for the sake of having free stuff. We wan't something engaging and good willingly from you. If they price we have to pay to get more free stuff is the loss of consumer rights, then you are alienating your players. And again, stop talking about those cool features for 2018. You changed the system NOW and you devalued the OE now, months before the first implementations of those new systems. So quit feeding us PR bullshit.
: So, we actually made three separate public announcements about the orange essence disenchant changes. 1) In the initial post about the changes 2) In the preseason FAQ 3) In the client, for two weeks before preseason. Here’s a post I wrote about it responding to a player who had this same question: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/7chx34/cactopus_regarding_the_orange_essence_rate_change/dpqhpzh/
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jtljrtyg,comment-id=00030000000100000000,timestamp=2017-11-14T19:29:22.796+0000) > > So, we actually made three separate public announcements about the orange essence disenchant changes. > > 1) In the initial post about the changes > 2) In the preseason FAQ > 3) In the client, for two weeks before preseason. > > Here’s a post I wrote about it responding to a player who had this same question: > https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/7chx34/cactopus_regarding_the_orange_essence_rate_change/dpqhpzh/ Either way, it seems it is wildly perceived as poorly communicated. Would you care to share with us some of the internal discussions you are facing regarding the issue?
: This quite frankly makes me disinterested in giving any of my money to Riot, or even play their game to boost their relevance. I would have lived through the preseason in-game rune changes, just like every year with similar game changing decisions, but the "update" on the progression and reward systems is going to be the critical thing that's going to make me leave this game, probably for good. I get why microtransactions exist in "free to play" games, what I don't get is the eventual removal of certain values to the rewards that screwed everyone. If you already implemented the loot system with specific numbers, you can only change it by increasing the reward factor. If you lower it to such a degree that it impacts the enjoyment of the game, a lot of aspects that made people work for their enjoyment in the game will also lose in value, which will lead to a cascade negative effect that could have been avoided if there wasn't the mindset of "hey we are really doing great at taking people's money, but that's not enough, let's want more, and more, and more while providing less".
> [{quoted}](name=Tesla Effect,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=0028,timestamp=2017-11-15T01:21:06.843+0000) > > This quite frankly makes me disinterested in giving any of my money to Riot, or even play their game to boost their relevance. > > I would have lived through the preseason in-game rune changes, just like every year with similar game changing decisions, but the "update" on the progression and reward systems is going to be the critical thing that's going to make me leave this game, probably for good. > > I get why microtransactions exist in "free to play" games, what I don't get is the eventual removal of certain values to the rewards that screwed everyone. If you already implemented the loot system with specific numbers, you can only change it by increasing the reward factor. If you lower it to such a degree that it impacts the enjoyment of the game, a lot of aspects that made people work for their enjoyment in the game will also lose in value, which will lead to a cascade negative effect that could have been avoided if there wasn't the mindset of "hey we are really doing great at taking people's money, but that's not enough, let's want more, and more, and more while providing less". What puzzles me is the slow reaction time Riot is showing. I totally understand they want to check "data", but after SUCH as backslash in almost every front regarding the pre-season, they should try to quicken their response. And OE isn't a minor issue. Being honest, I'm not excited about the changes. All I have is a bitter taste after believing in Riot. Now the trust is damaged, they tried to pull a ninja-nerf on us out of greed.
: Wait, what ? I never read anything about ORANGE essence getting changed. The entire patch was about runes and blue essence. I feel like they snuck in a change when nobody was watching. Not happy with this.
That's the point, to give visibility to the issue so more players learn about this and unite against anti-consumer practices (no, not the lootbox system itself, but the ninja-devaluing for a real cash currency with little to no communication about it)
Meanie40 (NA)
: Let me provide a counter reply that expresses the frustration many of us are feeling. I'm going to make a couple of baseline assumptions here; they can scale with whatever the facts actually are for the drops, but the general point will hold. Let's say the following framework was in place prior to the orange essence (hereafter OE) changes: 1) A player, on average, should earn shards every quarter (3 months) sufficient to unlock a skin with a store value of 975 RP. This would require shards with a store value of 2925 RP (the 975 RP shard you are unlocking (33% reduction to unlock, so 650 OE to unlock), plus 1950 RP worth of other shards that you disenchant (at 33% to obtain the 650 OE necessary)). 2) In a group of 11 purchased Hextech chests, the player on average should receive drops that can disenchant for OE with a store value of 2925 RP. (Meaning exactly enough, again, to unlock a 975 RP skin.) Now, you want to increase the number of chests that give items that disenchant for OE, so you reduce the disenchant rate to 20%. 1b) Now you give out more chests, with a total store value of 975+3900 (now disenchanting at 20%, for 780 OE to redeem the 975 RP shard)=4875 RP to retain the same goal of allowing a player to earn a 975 RP skin once per quarter. 2b) However, the purchased Hextech chests do not change. This means that the shards from the 11 Hextech chests are now 1950 RP value short of being able to redeem the 975 RP skin, a loss of value of 40%. This means to "purchase a skin" via Hextech chests, you now have to pay 40% more to do so. Hopefully this illustrates the frustration of the loss in value of purchased Hextech chests sufficiently from a player's point of view. (Edit 11/14 2pm Pacific: Reviewed the math now that I'm actually awake, and 650x3=1950, not 2150. I've corrected the calculations in line above, but it just results in the purchased chests having even less relative value after the changes (losing 40% compared to just under 36%.))
> [{quoted}](name=Meanie40,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=0009006b,timestamp=2017-11-14T09:05:38.196+0000) > > Let me provide a counter reply that expresses the frustration many of us are feeling. > > I'm going to make a couple of baseline assumptions here; they can scale with whatever the facts actually are for the drops, but the general point will hold. > > Let's say the following framework was in place prior to the orange essence (hereafter OE) changes: > > 1) A player, on average, should earn shards every quarter (3 months) sufficient to unlock a skin with a store value of 975 RP. This would require shards with a store value of 3125 RP (the 975 RP shard you are unlocking (33% reduction to unlock, so 650 OE to unlock), plus 2150 RP worth of other shards that you disenchant (at 33% to obtain the 650 OE necessary)). > > 2) In a group of 11 purchased Hextech chests, the player on average should receive drops that can disenchant for OE with a store value of 3125 RP. (Meaning exactly enough, again, to unlock a 975 RP skin.) > > Now, you want to increase the number of chests that give items that disenchant for OE, so you reduce the disenchant rate to 20%. > > 1b) Now you give out more chests, with a total store value of 975+3900 (now disenchanting at 20%, for 780 OE to redeem the 975 RP shard)=4875 RP to retain the same goal of allowing a player to earn a 975 RP skin once per quarter. > > 2b) However, the purchased Hextech chests do not change. This means that the shards from the 11 Hextech chests are now 1750 RP value short of being able to redeem the 975 RP skin, a loss of value of about 35%. This means to "purchase a skin" via Hextech chests, you now have to pay 35% more to do so. > > Hopefully this illustrates the frustration of the loss in value of purchased Hextech chests sufficiently from a player's point of view. I think this is clarifies it quite clearly (even if some numbers might be off), that the hit has been huge for the players that ACTUALLY spent money on Hextech Chests. If your new business model is to fuck up with some of your "real" customers (as they do pay for the stuff), then you are heading the wrong way Riot. In this thread has been plenty of good feedback regarding the matter: To revert temporarily the changes of OE disenchant value (to either have time to disenchant it for a week or to the time the actual free skin shards we receive TRULY compensate the OE loss), to give people the difference as OE dust for existing shards when the nerf hit, to change the FUTURE system into a two chests system, the ones you pay for and the ones we got for free with two different disenchant OE values... There is plenty to touch upon and to elaborate about. And we would love an official response and solutions to the issue, not a clarification (sorry Cactopus, althought your feedback well received, what we need is a dialogue and possible solutions).
Aterpater (EUNE)
: This is indeed a honest response. I'm not even suprised as I figured out already that this could be the reason behind the OE nerf and the - let's be honest, pretty fishy - new BE system. But I don't think it was a good business decision. Most of your playerbase, the casuals, didn't really spend on runes more than necessary and even then rather grinded out the IP for them. They don't feel the impact of free runes that directly on their IP/BE/OE/money/whatever. But they do feel the cut back on their other income what they used to buy new champs, unlock a few skins in every season, etc. And as increasing prices and decreasing income is always a sour feel of loss, even if it's a loss of revenue for you at the same time, they still feel robbed. So, I think it would be better to find other ways to balance your budget. We can come up with many ideas but I'm sure you have proper employees for that (though after these kind of things I do have doubts...). We all know how a f2p video game works and how different it is from selling products on the market. Most of your players will be freeloaders (like 80-90% I guess) anyway and they will never pay for anything. If you make them to hard to get stuff or force them to pay, they will switch to the competition without hestiation. Some players can and/or willing to pay and they will buy things here and there, even if it isn't too much grind to get them or there's no real gameplay advantage behind them. Actually, as far as I see, players prioritise games nowadays, at least on the western market, where you can't buy real advantages, and label the opposite "p2w" very quick and don't even touch them with a pole. And of course you have the "whales" (1-2% max), who will spend a lot of money on anything. But if you alienate your freeloaders, your playerbase will shrink and with a smaller playerbase and all the bad reputation, you will have way less spenders and whales too, so even if on paper it seemed like a way to increase revenue, practically it will decrease. Just look around on the market that how some games/companies can increase their revenue with very generous business models where many players literally pay just to support "that cool company". And how a bit too greedy move can result in things like the recent reddit issue around EA Games (are we over -400K, btw? :) ). Long story short: People who payed like 20 quids a month on your game, won't stop to do it with free runes, they will just spend it on other ingame stuff, and people who didn't pay won't start to pay now just because you force them. If they don't find the game rewarding enough, they will just move on. I find it a bit weird that I had to type this, I was sure that you guys, as a huge and successful company, are perfectly aware of this system and don't make that huge mistakes. I had a though that as some 90% of your playerbase are East Asians, and that's a well-known fact that that place is a heaven for p2w grindfest games, you're just trying to compete on that market and maximise profit. It's a very reasonable business decision and I can understand. But I have doubts that it will really work on the western market.
> [{quoted}](name=Aterpater,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=00090068,timestamp=2017-11-13T21:40:35.165+0000) > > This is indeed a honest response. I'm not even suprised as I figured out already that this could be the reason behind the OE nerf and the - let's be honest, pretty fishy - new BE system. But I don't think it was a good business decision. > Most of your playerbase, the casuals, didn't really spend on runes more than necessary and even then rather grinded out the IP for them. They don't feel the impact of free runes that directly on their IP/BE/OE/money/whatever. But they do feel the cut back on their other income what they used to buy new champs, unlock a few skins in every season, etc. And as increasing prices and decreasing income is always a sour feel of loss, even if it's a loss of revenue for you at the same time, they still feel robbed. > So, I think it would be better to find other ways to balance your budget. We can come up with many ideas but I'm sure you have proper employees for that (though after these kind of things I do have doubts...). > We all know how a f2p video game works and how different it is from selling products on the market. Most of your players will be freeloaders (like 80-90% I guess) anyway and they will never pay for anything. If you make them to hard to get stuff or force them to pay, they will switch to the competition without hestiation. Some players can and/or willing to pay and they will buy things here and there, even if it isn't too much grind to get them or there's no real gameplay advantage behind them. Actually, as far as I see, players prioritise games nowadays, at least on the western market, where you can't buy real advantages, and label the opposite "p2w" very quick and don't even touch them with a pole. And of course you have the "whales" (1-2% max), who will spend a lot of money on anything. > But if you alienate your freeloaders, your playerbase will shrink and with a smaller playerbase and all the bad reputation, you will have way less spenders and whales too, so even if on paper it seemed like a way to increase revenue, practically it will decrease. Just look around on the market that how some games/companies can increase their revenue with very generous business models where many players literally pay just to support "that cool company". And how a bit too greedy move can result in things like the recent reddit issue around EA Games (are we over -400K, btw? :) ). > Long story short: People who payed like 20 quids a month on your game, won't stop to do it with free runes, they will just spend it on other ingame stuff, and people who didn't pay won't start to pay now just because you force them. If they don't find the game rewarding enough, they will just move on. > > I find it a bit weird that I had to type this, I was sure that you guys, as a huge and successful company, are perfectly aware of this system and don't make that huge mistakes. > I had a though that as some 90% of your playerbase are East Asians, and that's a well-known fact that that place is a heaven for p2w grindfest games, you're just trying to compete on that market and maximise profit. It's a very reasonable business decision and I can understand. But I have doubts that it will really work on the western market. I think this post nicely sums up most of our complaints and delivers well thought feedback on the matter. Even if these changes are final, give the users a little of time to disenchant their skins at the original value would be (in my opinion), the best way to show your good will. We are not few who have reported the change into OE wasn't properly communicated and if that many people feel like this is the case it may indicate you guys screw it a bit. We know you are not perfect, but you have our feedback and passion. Please Riot, think carefully about this topic, this isn't a minor issue. This affects people perception of Riot directly through their wallets.
SirΤeemο (EUNE)
: Bring back the old value of orange disenchant riot !
My question now is: Is Riot going to take an official stand on the matter (no, not counting what Cactopus said as a "stand"). We are a lot of pissed customers here, and we deserve some sort of feedback aside of the "clarifications" already given by Cactopus. This is not a thread made by thin air, this is a serious debate and in a debate we need Riot to discuss the matter with their users.
DarkRooster (EUNE)
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=DarkRooster,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=0009000100000001000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-13T13:16:04.087+0000) > > You are the most self entitled bitches i ever seen, life doesn't work that way and i hope someday someone beats you to hospital to make you normal. Those self entitled bitches discuss with arguments and facts instead of pulling off _ad hominem_ every chance some of you can. Plus, this vocal part of the community is fighting for a better treatment of ALL OF US as costumers and players. In my book, that's something worth fighting (with reason and words) for.
: What revenue hit did Riot get from making runes free? I had to farm enough IP to get runes I ended up not even using (energy regen) and still bought RP for skins and other content. Runes never cost RP, and the hardcore players and veterans were always willing to grind it out in order to have an equal footing in the Rift. So again, what revenue hit does Riot really get by changing the runes and mastery system?
> [{quoted}](name=xX aZ3R0n Xx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=0009005d,timestamp=2017-11-13T12:35:23.292+0000) > > What revenue hit did Riot get from making runes free? I had to farm enough IP to get runes I ended up not even using (energy regen) and still bought RP for skins and other content. Runes never cost RP, and the hardcore players and veterans were always willing to grind it out in order to have an equal footing in the Rift. > > So again, what revenue hit does Riot really get by changing the runes and mastery system? The only possible explanation it comes to my mind is about the "giving free BE in compensation for old rune pages and runes". Even if that was the case, Riot decided to do it according to their "good will" and to "prevent frustration or remorse". And now, according to Cactopus statement on the matter, they are charging us for changing the system to prevent a revenue hit they purposely created. Riot, you are a company and you need to get money, we get that. What we don't get and we won't be silent about is the fact you are backstabbing us willingly with anti-consumer approaches disguised as good intentions. Loot boxes were always bullshiet, in all the possible means or forms. They are online gambling predating on the addictive predisposition of thousands of players around the world. Yet here we are, pushing ALMOST EVERYTHING regarding cosmetics AND ingame currencies THROUGH A LOOT BOX SYSTEM. Do you think getting randomized BE rewards was a good idea? Do you think some us haven't noticed the change since Tenecent bought you, all those Loot boxes clown fiesta events? Do you possible ignore the fact that some players see the new system as a way to: get people spend more RP AND introduce them deeper into the loot box wheel? And on top of that, they devalue the secondary virtual currency both cosmetic and essential? They deserve the shitstorm they are facing. And thank you all complacent bollocks who have justified and allowed by apathy the situation video games are in. Welcome to Las Vegas Online.
Raoul (EUW)
: Sry, but Champions and Skins are NOT on the same level of importance as the comment I was answering to suggested.
> [{quoted}](name=Raoul,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=0009000100000003000000010000,timestamp=2017-11-13T10:38:05.811+0000) > > Sry, but Champions and Skins are NOT on the same level of importance as the comment I was answering to suggested. Let's change our point of view. If skins weren't as important, we wouldn't get a couple skins per patch, wouldn't we? From Riot's perspective Skins are utterly important because they are their largest source of income. If they change things to make it worse to the players in favor of selling more RP, it needs to be called out loud anti-consumer practices and PR bullshit. I've dumped a couple hundred into the game, way more than a triple AAA out there. And I don't expect to be backstabbed as a customer without retaliation.
Doerfler (EUW)
: First of all thank you for the tread, I was searching for a response for a while. Now I dont want to write a extremly long text like the others but want to ask a simple question: according to the fact that a huge part of the LoL-players dont like the change, is it possible, that Riot will reset this change?
> [{quoted}](name=Doerfler,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=00090057,timestamp=2017-11-13T09:50:28.923+0000) > > First of all thank you for the tread, I was searching for a response for a while. Now I dont want to write a extremly long text like the others but want to ask a simple question: according to the fact that a huge part of the LoL-players dont like the change, is it possible, that Riot will reset this change? I think a couple of us were quite interested to make this thread to the top, because we need to tell the people what Riot has just done. ** After poorly (and that's an euphemism) communicating the changes in OE, a lot of players who didn't expect it have been fucked over so hard for nothing. ** Runes hitting revenue? Which? Last time I checked, runes could only be bought using IP before preseason. **Only the rune pages were eligible to buy using RP which, oh irony, Riot has kept from the old system (to keep their revenue of course)**. Perhaps Cactopus was talking about the "free rewards for old runes" and how it has impacted the champion's sales using RP? They delivered as a gift of "good will" and to avoid public backslash. And now they charge us for it? A similar analogy here would be being a ONG association who charges their donees. Now they are justifying the ninja-nerf with some PR bullshit about future events delivering free stuff(l**ocked behind tiring and half-assed missions**) while they admit **THEY CAN'T ASSURE WE WILL GET EQUIVALENT REWARD OF THE SYSTEM BEFORE THE CHANGES**. Basically, they have broken something that was fixed, because rea$ons. And don't get me started with the Double Frequency Up and Pitty Timer features. We are grateful Riot. However, while you say that you are still fucking the OE system:** Emotes are included in the chests drops, champion shards are still included** (even if the probability is reduced, which some people claim to disagree about) . Those **affect directly the OE inpu**t and the claims regarding honor system rewards are BS, none wanted a ward skin, nor does the ward skin equates the devalue of OE and Honor capsules only reward champion shards (aside from the ultrarare Grey WW and Medieval Twitch).. There is a saying here in Spain: **One of lime and another of sand, the benefits we receive are weighted by the negatives. And in this case, the negatives outweigh the positives. ** Look, it is even easier than it seems. **If they really claim they wanted to lock content to balance the rewards output they should have informed properly and repetitively before the change AND implement the change just before the new "reward event" or whatever hits live**. It wasn't that difficult and would have proven Riot's good will. After a shady slimy tactic of forfeit to provide more info, allow me to doubt it.
HRLKD (EUW)
: There is no reason to feel "cheated on". It was announced weeks before the patch actually rolled out that you will lose value on your shards. If you still didnt disenchant your stocked up skins its alone your fault dude.
> [{quoted}](name=HRLKD,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=00130000,timestamp=2017-11-13T00:34:14.972+0000) > > There is no reason to feel "cheated on". It was announced weeks before the patch actually rolled out that you will lose value on your shards. If you still didnt disenchant your stocked up skins its alone your fault dude. So what? The change is unjustifiable by itself. Plus apparently It isn't just about me. It is about a lot of pissed costumers and about the whole LoL community. And we are all affected believe it or not.
: Did you fully read Cactopus's response? > ...without having to take an additional huge revenue hit at the same time that **we're making runes free**. In order for Riot to function properly as a company, they need steady revenue. A big dip in their finances can affect a lot of things, the most important probably being their investor's perception (*cough* Tencent *cough*). I didn't know runes were such a big part of their revenue, but there you go. The alternative to leaving orange essence costs where they were was to increase RP costs. I imagine a lot more people would flip their shit on that scenario, and as you suggest, many people won't buy anymore.
> [{quoted}](name=DarkKatalyst,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=0009003200000001,timestamp=2017-11-12T23:55:17.480+0000) > > Did you fully read Cactopus's response? > > In order for Riot to function properly as a company, they need steady revenue. A big dip in their finances can affect a lot of things, the most important probably being their investor's perception (*cough* Tencent *cough*). I didn't know runes were such a big part of their revenue, but there you go. The alternative to leaving orange essence costs where they were was to increase RP costs. I imagine a lot more people would flip their shit on that scenario, and as you suggest, many people won't buy anymore. Sure, but what he said regarding the rune system was a half truth. @Riot Cactopus Before the pre-season launched, the only thing related to runes and masteries we could buy using RP was rune pages. Guess what? That's the only thing they've kept from the old system: New and Old players do have to buy rune pages. And you can skip the grind using RP. So, just to be clear, I call his statement on the matter utter PR bullshit. You couldn't buy runes using RP in the past and you can't now. You could buy Rune pages with RP in the past and you can now. BULLSHIT.
: Would you mind explaining the reasoning behind the skin shard system's existence? My fear is that free skins will drive up the RP price of skins if Riot caves into the demands. I know this is definitely an unpopular opinion, but I would rather see skin shards go away than experience the effects of an eternal tug-of-war on free accessibility. Does this system actually benefit Riot and the players in a significant way?
> [{quoted}](name=DarkKatalyst,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=00090032,timestamp=2017-11-12T23:30:04.279+0000) > > Would you mind explaining the reasoning behind the skin shard system's existence? My fear is that free skins will drive up the RP price of skins if Riot caves into the demands. I know this is definitely an unpopular opinion, but I would rather see skin shards go away than experience the effects of an eternal tug-of-war on free accessibility. Does this system actually benefit Riot and the players in a significant way? A company with more than a 1,7 billion $ in revenue is unable to revert the orange essence values to a state that lasted in a staple form for almost 2 years? Ask yourself about it. And if they do indeed rise the RP price of skins, then they would officially won't deserve to be purchased. There is a slim line drawn between what a business asks you to do and what the greed compels you to do.
spagnut (NA)
: My feeling is that all of the changes made, including this one have ruined my motivation to play, as an exclusive ARAM player.
> [{quoted}](name=spagnut,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wU1VbkHW,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-11-12T20:27:01.456+0000) > > My feeling is that all of the changes made, including this one have ruined my motivation to play, as an exclusive ARAM player. I feel you bro, I've been playing almost exclusively ARAM for the last months and know I find little to none motivation to keep playing it. I just hope it can be easily fixed in a simple patch, because ARAM players don't deserve this.
SirΤeemο (EUNE)
: Bring back the old value of orange disenchant riot !
You brought it all upon you Riot. Each anti-consumer decision (even if it is just perceived as such) deserves retaliation and backslash from the community. I hope this topic is "On your radar" as feedback for a hopefully soon™ patch. At least revert temporarily the orange essence nerf to allow players who feel cheated to empty and stock pile their resources.
Anonagon (NA)
: > I think we'll actually have to wait and see whether players feel that the additional shards from the other systems make up for the disenchant rate changes. Preseason shipped with some other upgrades to loot like bad luck protection and chances for double drops in chests, and I think we'll have to wait and see how that feels for players before we'll know. No. Waiting is not okay, because if the value of Orange Shards was preemptively nerfed to hell because of these upcoming changes, then you (maybe not you specifically, but the people at Riot responsible for the change) should already know whether or not those upcoming changes will actually compensate for the value players are losing on the shards they already had. "Waiting to see how players feel" seems a lot like "Waiting for the playerbase to forget" at the moment, because I highly doubt that the effective rate of skin shard drops is going to triple because of these new systems (which it would need to, because skin shards have lost two thirds of their value) > Now, there's another question implied here, which I think also bears addressing: **"Why can't Riot just give us more orange essence and more shards?"** I, and most players, understand fully well that Riot games is a business and has to make money somehow, so to suggest that the OP is implying the question of why we don't just get more free shit feels really disingenuous of you. The OP's post says nothing remotely suggestive of the idea that Riot should be giving us _more_ stuff than we did prior to the patch, just that it shouldn't be _less_. Projecting that question the OP never asked onto his argument (and by extension, anyone who would disagree with the orange shard DE rate changes) feels like a really shady attempt to de-legitimize their stance on the topic.
> [{quoted}](name=Anonagon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=0009001a,timestamp=2017-11-12T20:42:04.154+0000) > > No. Waiting is not okay, because if the value of Orange Shards was preemptively nerfed to hell because of these upcoming changes, then you (maybe not you specifically, but the people at Riot responsible for the change) should already know whether or not those upcoming changes will actually compensate for the value players are losing on the shards they already had. "Waiting to see how players feel" seems a lot like "Waiting for the playerbase to forget" at the moment, because I highly doubt that the effective rate of skin shard drops is going to triple because of these new systems (which it would need to, because skin shards have lost two thirds of their value) > > I, and most players, understand fully well that Riot games is a business and has to make money somehow, so to suggest that the OP is implying the question of why we don't just get more free shit feels really disingenuous of you. The OP's post says nothing remotely suggestive of the idea that Riot should be giving us _more_ stuff than we did prior to the patch, just that it shouldn't be _less_. Projecting that question the OP never asked onto his argument (and by extension, anyone who would disagree with the orange shard DE rate changes) feels like a really shady attempt to de-legitimize their stance on the topic. I couldn't agree more. If Riot wanted to implement aka force a new OE system they should have nerfed the disenchant value at that precise moment, not way before it. Thanks to this poorly thought direction the consumer feels toyed and helpless. Specially if the target of the nerf is a virtual currency directly related to putting cash into the game and gamble through loot boxes. The player doesn't want "more free stuff", the player wants to keep the system if it has worked. And there is no proper justification to take a system that works and trample over the costumer alleging "but, but more stuff is coming to compensate duh", specially if that new content is locked behind awfully designed missions and greedy cash-grab events. To sum up: If the player is going to invest more time and resources to get the new stuff to compensate the preemptive nerf, the new content and features are not worth. Remember we already had the value before the corporate overlords decided to step on.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ultra Rapid Fyre,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=00090017,timestamp=2017-11-12T20:34:20.075+0000) > > the old system was fine. The new system is to drive sales and thats the only reason it was pushed. Its sad that you guys want to say its anything more than greed They are really trying to make it look like its not for greedy reasons, but if you think about it even for a bit, its for greedy reasons.
> [{quoted}](name=Tesla Effect,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=000900170000,timestamp=2017-11-12T20:35:53.833+0000) > > They are really trying to make it look like its not for greedy reasons, but if you think about it even for a bit, its for greedy reasons. Do they? I mean, Cactopus has bluntly admitted the orange essence devaluation is to gain a buck Quite directly I must add.
Mr 99 LP (NA)
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=Mr 99 LP,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=00090001000000010000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-12T20:29:13.108+0000) > > Don't argue with EU players on NA forums.. They literally never make sense, and they always get down voted. I see them as common trolls, I mean I have yet to see an EUW players not be downvoted on a post. Perhaps you should check the first page of this thread. Slack off that NA vs EU bullshit. And I am not defending the guy,in my opinion he is talking bananas, but resorting to disrespect a user due to his origin is disgusting, period.
Raoul (EUW)
: Let me explain this to you very slowly and in easy words, maybe that will make you understand: YOU do not WORK playing this game. RIOT is working! They Worked creating this game, they WORK keeping it running, they WORK to update it and keep it interesting. They work FOR FREE! YOU can support them in form of donations, which are meant to support the company and the game. As a thank you for your support by donating money to RIOT, they give you a virtual currency, you can trade for cosmetics, that dont effect the game, but make you stand out as a supporter of the game. Skins are a privilege to supporters, not a right for every player just for playing the game. People who play the game are rewarded with THE GAME. And by the way, a game that you dont have to spend one lousy penny on if you dont like. That you have the possibility to get skins without supporting RIOT is just a generosity they give you.
> [{quoted}](name=Raoul,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=0009000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-12T19:37:58.241+0000) > > Let me explain this to you very slowly and in easy words, maybe that will make you understand: > > YOU do not WORK playing this game. > RIOT is working! They Worked creating this game, they WORK keeping it running, they WORK to update it and keep it interesting. > They work FOR FREE! YOU can support them in form of donations, which are meant to support the company and the game. > As a thank you for your support by donating money to RIOT, they give you a virtual currency, you can trade for cosmetics, that dont effect the game, but make you stand out as a supporter of the game. > > Skins are a privilege to supporters, not a right for every player just for playing the game. > People who play the game are rewarded with THE GAME. And by the way, a game that you dont have to spend one lousy penny on if you dont like. > > That you have the possibility to get skins without supporting RIOT is just a generosity they give you. Again, we are using the same old argument of: "You should be grateful they fed us the breadcrumbs instead of not being fed anything at all" First: we shouldn't be grateful for "receiving free flashy cosmetic stuff" . It is a business and there is direct competition by other games and genres. It is due to player retention and public image politics that we are "allowed" to get free stuff. Second: The orange essence system depends EXCLUSIVELY of the Hextech crate system. The Hextech crate system is bought by many, giving profit to Riot. If they devalue the virtual coin #2 used exclusively in the loot system bought with cash, they are effectively affecting a wide array of costumers who supported and had faith in Riot. Third: The change was (in my opinion) poorly expressed and communicated. I've only noticed today as I wanted to upgrade a skin shard. That's unacceptable with a change so important and significant. Fourth: They've essentially have taken something we had before for a worse system. Some might argue that we should give them the benefit of the doubt, but there are also people frustrated with how things have been going for a while and the Pre-season patch has been the final nail in the coffin. Fifth: If we let this slide, we all might lose more of our customer and user rights. And yes, those includes even the people who side with Riot. Just some food for thought.
: As far as I can tell, I've continued to get mastery points in ARAM games. EUW had some issues with the mastery system at the start of the patch, perhaps theres further issues happening there?
> [{quoted}](name=Mysticman89,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wU1VbkHW,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-11-12T19:15:59.416+0000) > > As far as I can tell, I've continued to get mastery points in ARAM games. > > EUW had some issues with the mastery system at the start of the patch, perhaps theres further issues happening there? I would assume so then. I must say I play in EUW
: ##Edit: Even if you disagree with the reasoning below, don't downvote me too much! I want more people to see our honest response to this question. This orange essence thing is a spicy one but I'll take my best shot at addressing it. The most honest answer it comes down to is that we wanna be able to spread out orange essence type loot and rewards across multiple systems without having to take an additional huge revenue hit at the same time that we're making runes free. I'll explain what I mean. Basically, when we first started giving out skins and stuff through the loot system, the only way you could get it was by 1) paying for it or 2) earning it through the mastery chests. Going into 2018 you're also gonna get skin content through things like events and honor (lets call them "orange shards" since we're really talking about anything that can be disenchanted into orange essence). We lowered the disenchant rate on shards, and we're giving out more shards. So that's what I mean by spreading it across multiple systems. I think we'll actually have to wait and see whether players feel that the additional shards from the other systems make up for the disenchant rate changes. Preseason shipped with some other upgrades to loot like bad luck protection and chances for double drops in chests, and I think we'll have to wait and see how that feels for players before we'll know. Now, there's another question implied here, which I think also bears addressing: **"Why can't Riot just give us more orange essence and more shards?"** The answer is that we make money on League through RP sales, and we want to be really responsible about how much we cut into RP sales when giving away stuff. Giving away skins and cosmetics through our in-games systems is something we have to manage really carefully—if it becomes to easy to earn orange essence and shards, RP sales would go down a lot (why pay for it when you can just get skins for free?). Even though League is free to play, we do need to make money and manage it responsibly so we can reinvest it back into the game. That's why making cosmetics too easy to get for free would be irresponsible for us, as a business. I know it's hard to get excited about an explanation like this, but I hope it makes sense! ##ONE MORE LONGISH EDIT TO CLARIFY A POINT: **I don't want to make the promise that the orange essence amounts you get will “even out” or be the same as before.** There’s way too much variance in the rates that people get OE from mastery and all the other systems for us to say that with a straight face. And the truth is the nerf to OE disenchant rates was significant. It’s more than we reigned it in to give ourselves wiggle room with these other systems. And honestly, the revenue hit from making runes free was a factor we considered as part of that. The goal is to make rewards systems that feel meaningful, rather than just constantly increasing the amount of stuff we give out every year because player expectations keep rising. It feels icky when we start talking about protecting revenue and budgets and shit, but we’re open to feedback on this stuff. I see basically no one talking about the double drops or bad luck protection that we already added to the system, so I wanna wait for a while for people to get used to the changes.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-11-12T18:53:04.273+0000) > > This orange essence thing is a spicy one but I'll take my best shot at addressing it. The most honest answer it comes down to is that we wanna be able to spread out orange essence type loot and rewards across multiple systems without having to take an additional huge revenue hit at the same time that we're making runes free. > > I'll explain what I mean. > > Basically, when we first started giving out skins and stuff through the loot system, the only way you could get it was by > > 1) paying for it > or > 2) earning it through the mastery chests. > > Going into 2018 you're also gonna get skin content through things like events and honor (lets call them "orange shards" since we're really talking about anything that can be disenchanted into orange essence). We lowered the disenchant rate on shards, and we're giving out more shards. > > So that's what I mean by spreading it across multiple systems. I think we'll actually have to wait and see whether players feel that the additional shards from the other systems make up for the disenchant rate changes. Preseason shipped with some other upgrades to loot like bad luck protection and chances for double drops in chests, and I think we'll have to wait and see how that feels for players before we'll know. > > Now, there's another question implied here, which I think also bears addressing: **"Why can't Riot just give us more orange essence and more shards?"** > > The answer is that we make money on League through RP sales, and we want to be really responsible about how much we cut into RP sales when giving away stuff. Giving away skins and cosmetics through our in-games systems is something we have to manage really carefully—if it becomes to easy to earn orange essence and shards, RP sales would go down a lot (why pay for it when you can just get skins for free?). Even though League is free to play, we do need to make money and manage it responsibly so we can reinvest it back into the game. That's why making cosmetics too easy to get for free would be irresponsible for us, as a business. > > I know it's hard to get excited about an explanation like this, but I hope it makes sense! Hey Riot Cactopus, thanks for coming in! The due credit where credit is due. I think all the players here know that League of Legends ultimately is a business. And is logical to take steps into preserving the monetization of your own product. But I am, as a consumer, feel let down with remorse and frustration. I feel it wasn't communicated well enough, and due to that, I am stockpiling skin shards I might wanna upgrade with a devalued disenchant cost. What about all the people who invested into Hextech Crates and wasn't expecting the devaluation? How do they feel about using their money in a product whose value has changed overnight without knowing? Moreover, it sets a dangerous precedent. And I, for one, don't feel excited about it, on the contrary. For the sake of the argument, let's assume the new model of skin shards and orange essence rewards you force us... [cough] you try to implement fails utterly to the demands and expectations of your costumers. It is a risky move and you've certainly have a lot at stake. Will you then allow people to disenchant at the old rates? And, if they are successful, are they worth the price of the backslash you are getting? Keep in mind this is no minor issue. You are toying with people's money and time this preseason. I do not despise change. I do however anti-consumer practices and "fixin' a problem it wasn't really there causing a problem it wasn't there" attitude. Thank you for your reply, and please do not take it personally. I know you are a cool !
Leonerdo (NA)
: > Corporate Mundo, a 1820 RP skin could be disenchanted for a total of 1050 Orange Essence You are lying. In fact, no skin shard could be disenchanted for that value. The closest value you could get from a skin shard is 1083 from an Ultimate skin. (Source: The wiki, which still hasn't updated the table for skin shard values. Even after the table is updated, you can just check old versions of the page.)
> [{quoted}](name=Leonerdo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-11-12T18:45:16.519+0000) > > You are lying. In fact, no skin shard could be disenchanted for that value. The closest value you could get from a skin shard is 1083 from an Ultimate skin. > > (Source: The wiki, which still hasn't updated the table for skin shard values. Even after the table is updated, you can just check old versions of the page.) I concede I've messed up the disenchant value, but my point still stands. We are getting less value out a an orange disenchant, and pretty significantly. Using the lowest value for a 1820 RP skin using the same source, the wiki: 601 orange essence. With the old system we would require 2,53 legendary skin shards to craft a permanent one, with the new one, we need 4, 17 legendary shards. Againt, that is a significant increase in my book.
SirΤeemο (EUNE)
: what is RNG?
> [{quoted}](name=SirΤeemο,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=000700010000,timestamp=2017-11-12T18:27:31.594+0000) > > what is RNG? **Random Number generator.** The loot boxes (such as Hextech crates) are build on that. Let's say you open a Hextech crate. Upon opening, the program rolls a dice of 100 possible combinations, from 1 to 100. After that, the program checks the number in a table, in order to "create" the content of the loot box. I'm going to try to explain it using numbers and tables made by my own granted we don't know the exact numbers and tables that Riot uses: When you open the Hextech crate, you first roll a dice of 100 numbers (1 to 100) to determine wheter it is a emote, a summoner icon, a ward skin, a champion fragment or a champion skin fragment. For example: rand(100), delivers a 57 Then using a a few code lines you are able to check the result (57) in a table of possible outcomes: 1. From 1 to 15 the result is a summoner icon 2. From 15 to 35 the result is an emote 3. From 35 to 50 the result is a ward skin 4. From 50 to 75 the result is a champion shard 5. From 75 to 100 the result is a champion skin shard. So, according to our result, the Hextech crate item is a champion shard. After acquiring an specific item, another dice is rolled to determine which item from a predetermined list you are able to obtain ( Using the example, the total champion pool). So another dice is thrown and the results determines you receive for example a Renekton, meaning you've got a Renekton champion shard. Hope it has clarified it a bit for you.
Leonerdo (NA)
: > To make up for essence drop rate changes, we'll tune the way loot boxes work to increase the amount of skins you'll get from them. We'll also add "bad luck protection," so you won't ever go on long streaks without getting a skin shard or a gemstone from chests. [-- Source](https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/115012640908)
> [{quoted}](name=Leonerdo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-11-12T18:12:32.324+0000) > > [-- Source](https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/115012640908) Thanks for pointing the source, although it just falls from its own weight. Warning, we are going to endure a world of **assumptions** here; So let's pretend the acquisition of Key Fragments by the new Honor system isn't more RNG based that the previous system. For the sake of the argument let's assume that the new skin shards drop rates (which, by the way, we don't know), aren't affected by the inclusion of the "MUST OWN" emotes. Let's have faith that those drops deliver some orange essence, alas with the system before the preseason patch, resulting of a gain of up to an astounding value of ~100 orange essence. And lastly we should rest assured the champion shards are out of the equation. But wait, there is a contradiction here! Yes, you've found it. _The above paragraph is indeed a devastating contradiction itself_. **We have less orange essence flux through skin shard disenchant (and not a minimal change, it is a net change of 37,5% lost using the example of a Legendary Skin shard), we get less skin shards due to the inclusion of useless emotes and the presence (yet) of champion shards, we don't get any factual increase in orange essence whatsoever and the rate in which a F2P opens chest is slower due to the Honor system revamp bullshiet.** Congratulations, we are fucked by Riot's Chinese overlords.
SirΤeemο (EUNE)
: say what? --------- EDIT: oh :p i just saw what you wrote sorry ! xD ehm , it's the TOP comment , so.. people see it anyway <3 but thanks mate ! <3 i might use it in another post <3 {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}}
> [{quoted}](name=SirΤeemο,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fRZopjhE,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2017-11-12T18:08:47.701+0000) > > say what? I meant you are free (if you want of course), to use any of the examples and data I've brought to the discussion in the front of the thread if you edit it. Whether you do it or not, It's up to you, no harm {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
: Yeah that's a really dumb design change. If you play the champ in a competitive environment period, you should receive credit aka mastery levels. {{sticker:sg-lux-2}}
> [{quoted}](name=InfinitexMortal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wU1VbkHW,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-11-12T16:54:57.070+0000) > > Yeah that&#x27;s a really dumb design change. If you play the champ in a competitive environment period, you should receive credit aka mastery levels. > {{sticker:sg-lux-2}} > [{quoted}](name=NekoniClaws,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wU1VbkHW,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-11-12T17:55:49.817+0000) > ????????????????????? > > {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}} > > I mean, it&#x27;s not like there&#x27;s much difference between 0 mastery and mastery 5. But at the same time- there&#x27;s barely any difference so why lock it to SR??? > > This doesn&#x27;t even effect me personally! But I think this is stupidly unfair for ARAM players. I would imagine that after fucking with the Blue essence system, after devaluing the Orange essence skin shard disenchanting and after releasing a half -baked runes system with balance issues Riot couldn't screw things up more. And yet here we are..
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Varissar

Level 41 (EUW)
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