Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 15
Hey Meddler, Since you have mentioned Karma and pointed out her splitted playerbases, I am curious how you want to handle her? You said she is in need for work quite some time ago (and many Karma players agree to that); also all tries to unify her playerbases/ update her gameplay failed so far from Riots side, even when done by someone who really cared about Karma. Its no secret that she was released in a hurry and she feels unfinished, lacking thematics, visuals and a coherent kit (Twin Dragons?). Since 5.1. she apparently has also become more and more of a problem game health wise. Could it be that Karma is in need of a much bigger update than previously thought?
: Why Are Karma Players Upset about the Phoenix Video?
Good points, I really wish Riot would cooperate more with the playerbases. In case of Karma... they seemingly dont know what to do, dont bother or just think the time is better invested somewhere else. There are so many good suggestions out there Riot!
Sukishoo (NA)
: Chromas don't change the color of effects is why. They have made some exceptions but most of the time it uses the basic effects and just changes the outfit color.
> [{quoted}](name=Sukishoo,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XZ4E0pPQ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-06-11T17:27:25.345+0000) > > Chromas don't change the color of effects is why. They have made some exceptions but most of the time it uses the basic effects and just changes the outfit color. Its actually not an "effect". Karma swaps texture upon Mantraing, so tecnically each of her models has just 2 textures. And it feels very lazy that they just redo 1 for the chroma but not the other one.
: Because her ultimate isn't a transformation. And even among champions who do have a transformation, not all of them with chromas change colors with a chroma. Mecha Kha and Malphite being the first examples that come to mind, seeing as they both remain red when they change. It's not that Karma is lacking something other champions have, it's that Swain has something extra that most other champions don't.
> [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XZ4E0pPQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-06-11T16:54:50.350+0000) > > Because her ultimate isn't a transformation. > > And even among champions who do have a transformation, not all of them with chromas change colors with a chroma. Mecha Kha and Malphite being the first examples that come to mind, seeing as they both remain red when they change. > > It's not that Karma is lacking something other champions have, it's that Swain has something extra that most other champions don't. Fair point, but I did see quite some disappointments about those. I still think that these are bad choices and they all deserve chroma specific coloring.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 15
Hey Meddler, Many Karma mains ask for her shieldbomb to return (it used to be her iconic ability after all... its like removing Viktors laser or Garens spin to win). Pre 5.10 Karma seemed to be the healthist incarnation (huh); why isnt she reverted to that/used as a base for a rework? There are so many exellent and very popular suggestions as to how make her more fun to play with and against, adding counterplay, depth and skillexpression, for example: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/RHn0ZE62-quick-fix-for-karma Or https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/oxNbhh7j-a-detailed-post-on-karma-and-her-twin-dragons The last one is a good example of how much people desire Karma to be more thematic and have an identity, everything that has been ripped off her after her VGU and continuing. Karma has so much potential (visually and gameplaywise) and it just feels so wasted. She feels hollow. She shouldnt be. (Also I agree that the proposed changes are largely not helpfull to fix any of her many issues)
Rioter Comments
: Neeko's R is what Karma's shield bomb should've been
It is sad that Karma apparently can not have her (once) iconic ability back. So much got ripped from her and altered, so much got lost, which todays Karma could need (Identity, unique abilities, skillexpression...). Its like taking Victors laser away. Or Garens spin. I really hope Riot reconsiders their approach for her mini rework. What they want to ship to us is laughable compared to the time they invested and to what they could do and what Karma really needs. She does not need frontloaded RQ damage. She needs target accessing. She does not need a RE, designed around boring and uninteractive spamming. She needs her iconic ability back - shieldbomb. She does not need Mantra Abilities, which levels off her basic abilities. She needs decision making. She does not need role locked Mantra decisions. She needs Mantras, which all offers something for all her roles. She needs more Identity, more skillexpression. She needs to be more... Karma.
: We're currently doing some kit exploration on her (both smaller and larger scale - with larger being on the rengar/lb scale). Current hope is to try to get something out in 4-5 patches if we're able to land it.
> [{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=zGoZdPHo,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-06-12T18:23:33.402+0000) > > We're currently doing some kit exploration on her (both smaller and larger scale - with larger being on the rengar/lb scale). Current hope is to try to get something out in 4-5 patches if we're able to land it. Do these changes include new things as well, like a new W (which would require new animations etc.) or new mechanics? Or is it more like a revert?
Meddler (NA)
: Ahri - changes weren't ready in general for 8.6, hence they got delayed to 8.7. That won't include a replacement W. That'd take a much larger amount of time, art included. Right now we're trying to get some quicker improvements to Ahri since artist time's being used on other projects. Karma - still expecting we'll do some form of smaller update to her this year. I think she's got a lot of issues that were present before the 5.10 changes, so I don't feel going back on those would solve a huge amount of things. Would want to look whether the removal of the shield bomb in particular though has worked out as planned or not (not certain either way personally, but believe it would be worth digging into certainly).
Thanks so much for the update! Personly I think that Karma needs more than a small update. The 5.10 Patch left her with more issues than she had before; most importantly the Mantra issues: 5.10 was not good for her contextual decision making (in terms of choosing which ability to Mantra, which is core for her skillexpression); it is now even less dependend on the situation, instead Mantra is bond to the role you choosed. It takes so much decision making away as most Mantra's will be just predetermined (RQ as Mid, RE as Support, RW as Tank/Battlemage). The Mantra's dont compete enough against each other across the roles, especially since their damage were removed (RW,RE), making them not very usefull in other roles.
: Karma mini-rework concept, take 3
Hey there, just wanted to bump in and share some of my thoughts (gonna point out what I think might not work or I dont like). > Passive: Retribution [new] > > Karma gains a stack of retribution for shielding/healing herself and allied champions > Karma's abilities and auto attacks consume stacks of retribution. > Auto attacks consume one stack. > Stacks deal an additional 20 (+5 per level) (+15% AP) magic damage to enemy champions hit. > Karma can hold up to 5 stacks of retribution. This Passive emphisizes too much on a passive/defensive playstyle (its whole chain is set in motion based on defensive/responsive mechanism) . On top of that you could spam shields on allies outside of battle to stack up. > Q: Inner flame [nerf] > > Karma releases spiritual fire in a line in front of her dealing 80/125/170/215 /260 (+60% AP)> 80/115/150/185/220 (+50%AP) magic damage in a small area, and slowing all enemies hit by 25%. > Karma's Inner flame only consumes one stack of retribution, but deals the bonus damage to all targets hit. > Mana cost reduced to 55 mana at all ranks from 50/55/60/65/70 I can pretty sure say that this wont be like by almost all mage Karma players. One get more damage out of Q with a Passive stack, but you need to have your shield up/stacks to do so. Q already doesnt feel very special and taking away guaranteed power from it to give it the possibility to deal a little more damage wouldnt feel great I suppose. > RQ: Soulflare [Change] > > Karma lets charges the magical energy in the earth below her feet, causing a nova to erupt after a 1 second channel damaging all enemies in an 250 400/450/500/550 radius around the target area, dealing Inner flame's magic damage plus an additional 25/75/125/175 (+30%AP) magic damage, slowing all enemies by 50/65/80%, and leaving behind a detonation zone. > Pretty big range > After 1.5 seconds the detonation zone exploads, dealing 50/150/250/350 (+ 60% AP) magic damage > The problem I can see here is that a skillshot suddenly turn into a selfcast aoe ability, which might not feel intuitive. It would also ruin her poking identity, which at the moment is an important part of her. > W: Focused Resolve [buff] > > Karma connects to an ally or enemy champion, doesn't use up Retribution stacks > Enemy: Karma tethers to an enemy champion for up to 5 seconds dealing 15/22.5/30/37.5/45 (+10% AP) magic damage per half second, 150/225/300/375/450 (+100% AP) max, and roots the target for 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 seconds at the end of the durration > Karma can end the tether effect early after only two seconds. Doing so will root the tethered enemy, but only deal half of the remaining DOT. > Karma gains 5/10/15/20/25% spell vamp against the tethered enemy. > Ally: Karma heals her ally for 5/10/15/20/25 (+8% AP) health per half second for up to 5 seconds, and heals for an additional 1% per 1% missing HP, Maximum of 100/200/300/400/500 (100% AP) if they're at 1HP the entire heal durration. > Karma receives any bonuses the ally gains at 30/40/50/60/70% effectiveness (including said heal) once the tether breaks > Karma can re-activate the tether after 2 seconds, gaining all positive bonuses, but also reducing the remaining healing by half. > Cool down increased from 12 at all ranks to 16/15/14/13/12 > Mana cost increased from 50/55/60/65/70 to 65/70/75/80/85 So you can tether for 5 seconds, but you are getting the root after 2 if you want? I dont know... its either that the 5-second damage will be oppressive or useless as the tether breaks easily, which would make the 2-second version superior in almost all situations. Some kind of sharing seems fitting. Also why it doesnt use Passive stacks? Whats the use of a passive, which says "her abilities, but leaves out 1/3 of them? > RW: Revitalize [change... nerf to tank, buff to AP and supp] > > Karma creates a circle at a target location for 5/6/7/8 seconds, still doesn't use Retribution stacks > The circle deals focused resolve's damage to enemies inside plus an additional 15/22.5/30/37.5 (+2.5% AP) per half second > The circle heals Karma's allies for an additional 10/15/20/25 (+1.5% AP) Per half second > Karma heals for 30% of the health allies gain, Karma heals for 30% of all damage enemies within the circle take. The last part would make her very strong when your team is clustered and since that needs to be balanced, the tether might be useless if you have no allies or only a few around you. > E: Inspire > > Karma shields herself or an ally for 70/95/120/145/170 (+ 50% AP) for 4 seconds granting a 40/45/50/55/60% movement speed buff. > [New] If Karma's shield breaks/fades and she has a stack of Retribution, the shield will explode, dealing damage equal to Retribution Shieldbreakdamage can be something on Karma, however this one will need to have a good indicator that enemies will know whether or not it could damage them. > > RE: Defiance [change, nerfs team fights, buffs plays] > > Karma shields the target ally for Inspire's Shield plus an additional 30/90/150/210 (+ 60% AP)> 45/120/195/270 (+75%AP) shield for four seconds and granting inspires movement speed buff. > If the shield expires and Karma has Retribution then the shield explodes dealing Retribution's damage > If the Target is under crowd control effects, the shield cleanses them Cleanse is very strong and I opted once to put something like that on the tether (unsure if that should be something Karma should be able to). It would make her RE more single unit protection focused; it would kinda swap places with RW. > R: Mantra [change] > > [Changed] Passive: Whenever Karma uses Retribution while Mantra's on cool down, reduce Mantra's cool down by 1/1.5/2/2.5 seconds > Active: Karma empowers her next ability. > [New] Resets Karma's ability cooldown It shouldnt reset Karma's abilities because that is a major counterplay and something you need to learn: managing your abilities. Its more important on Karma than on most others, because the cooldown of her ultimates are not only shared, but her ultimate also shares the cooldown with her basic abilities.
Rioter Comments
: Wait Karma is getting an update?
Yes, it was said sometime in the first half of this year, the exact scale is unkown as well as what will be changed.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 24
Hey Meddler, In the light of the upcoming update for Karma, could you share some information as to how big her update will be? Will it be like Xins update or smaller? Also any thoughts on which abilities you are looking in? What are the aims of the changes (more mage/support direction/skillexpression/interaction/identity)? Thank you for your time :)
: I'd be happy with this. It appears to give more counterplay to opponents whilst also increasing her skill expression, which I think she needs. These changes seem like they'd allow her to function in mid as a mage, whilst giving her a more flexible support style which doesn't revolve around zero counterplay **RE** spam. She'd have actual support combos to cast on her allies (ERW and WRE), actual **contextual decision making**. The only thing I'd say is the damage reduction on **W** should probably scale with ability rank, and the ally **RW** should also grant the base **W**'s damage reduction for Karma and her ally for continuity.
Those are the goals :) Which numbers would you suggest for W? RW should grant the ally damage reduction from base W of course.
: Would make her too hard to be used in a solo lane imo with the w changes.
Please dont forget that W/RW still has the enemy function, the ally function is addtional to what it already does (also did not mention that I removed the extra root for extra damage, but I wrote it for clarification).
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 19
Hey Meddler, In the light of the upcoming mechanical update for Karma, could you share some information as to how big her update will be? Will it be like Xins update or smaller? Also any thoughts on which abilities you are looking in? What are the aims of the changes (more mage/support direction)? Thank you for your time :)
: @Riot In light of Leblanc's upcoming partial revert...
Completely agree. Though I have to say its probably quite hard as they created 3 different Karma's as of now. It was already hard enough to do the VGU for Old Karma (which they failed). Now Riot has to unite 3 playerbases. (Maybe you should mention, what Riot said about their work on Leblanc. I am not sure if everyone read this in 'ask Riot' so it might be helpfull for those who did not.)
: Ok then I think I can start to see it better now, But aoe normal shield will definitely turn her into a support. Just because being able to apply aoe shield with ardent censor is pretty broken for support, just having that single target with the bomb (a highly request feature) would be fine enough. No root on W?!?!? You're a mad man. I'm sorry, But without that she cannot compete with the likes of Ryze, Orianna, even someone like morgana. Maybe have the W root only the main target and have the extra tendrils not root at the end but instead deal extra damage if they can pop? And I think with all that you've added to her she wouldn't need the (albeit) gimmicky heal on her RW. Ground target RQ seems weird. But I think it works. I've never thought of that before for her but it would be a nice addition for the RQ. Overall I really enjoy the idea you present (especially the chain W) just a few tweaks to make it excellent. Do you do mid Karma? Top karma?
Thanks^^ It depends on how the shield would function then, if you go with the second (the shieldbubble) it might trigger ardent not at all or just the main target. Also I think the AOE would be smaller than Sona's W so I wouldnt be concerned that much about censer. Root might work with only the main target. I am actually a support main, but I play her everywhere.
: My main issue with this is it seems to be catering towards support Karma, And while that isn't bad I think most people want her to be in a solo lane. I'm one of those scumbags who abuse her top and her being in a solo lane just fits her better. But as for your actual concept keeping in mind that it is a support Karma rework.... Q having a slow on it is quintessential. I can see the want to remove it on her poke in botlane because it's just unneeded and copious amounts of cc. But think about keeping the slow on her RQ. Having her RQ heal for its explosion also seems pretty lackluster because you will be mostly with a ranged ally. The adc would very rarely be in a position to be healed by it. W: Beautiful, But overloaded. I love the chain mechanic but having them slow down on it is a bit much since the root is already really good. Keeping the speed for allies would be nice because it requires forethought with using your E on them. But getting rid of the self healing on RW is soo painful to see, however that might just be from a solo lane perspective. E: Need clarification for this one. How exactly is it working now?
Thanks for the feedback! Its not supposed to push her into Support. She can waveclear much better with a ground targeted RQ and a Shieldbomb (more Damage options, heal on RQ is optional so it might stay damage spell) and can also reach her targets better as she can now as a mage. (W has no root atm) Whether or not the slow feels oppressive is dependend on numbers. Selfhealing/healing might be built into RW if RQ is not healing. E1: You shield a champion. Everyone around it also gains a small shield. (Like current RE but withought the MS and weaker). E2: You shield a champion. This shield has X health. It shields all units within a certain range around that target from damage (it shields from damage where damage is done), until the shield has no health anymore. Think of a shield bubble that protects everyone in it and breaks when it absorbed the maximum damage.
Rioter Comments
: > [W] Focused Resolve > Karma bonds to a champion, twin dragon or epic monster for 2 Seconds. While bonded, she gains +5/ 10/ 15/ 20/ 25 (+1% AP) armor and magic resistance. If she is bonded to an ally, the Ally will benefit from the armor and magic resisatnce gain as well. > If the bond persists for 2 seconds, it will deal 80/ 140/ 200/ 260 (+90% AP) magic damage to the bounded enemy or, if Karma was bond to an ally, enchant the next damage dealt to an enemy by Karma by half that amount for 2 seconds. If you want effects like this on her W it would need to last longer than 2 seconds to be useful. You could make the enemy cast be 2 seconds and have the ally cast last longer, but those kind of inconsistencies can feel messy - especially if the spell isn't satisfying. Does this also mean she loses the root on the enemy W? > [RW] Renewal > Enemy target: If the bond is not broken, it will also heal Karma and all allies within 600 Range of her for 60/ 120/ 180/ 240 (+60% AP) increased by 1% per 3% of their missing health. So she only gets the heal if the bond isn't broken, meaning no more heal on cast? That feels bad. > Allied target: Karma binds to all allies within range, granting them additionally 7/13/19/ 25 + (1% AP) armor and magicresistance. For each Bond persisting, except for the primary target bond, she gains +10/ 30/ 50/ 70 (+15% AP) magic damage on her next damage done on enemies within 4 seconds. (like Morgana but instead of enemies she bonds to allies). The enemy and allies casts don't feel balanced properly against each other: - The enemy cast deals damage to the target enemy while healing Karma and her allies within a 600 unit radius if the bond is unbroken. - The ally cast boosts resists for all allies in range and grants her AP for every ally except for the primary target. Both the W and RW seem heavily skewed towards supporting, making her ally cast RW a bit pointless since it only gives flat resistances to allies and gives her AP she cant make good use of. On the other hand, if she goes AP she'll get a crazy amount of free AP around allies which would be multiplied by Rabadons - but would have no Mantra to use with it (she used it to get the AP).
> If you want effects like this on her W it would need to last longer than 2 seconds to be useful. You could make the enemy cast be 2 seconds and have the ally cast last longer, but those kind of inconsistencies can feel messy - especially if the spell isn't satisfying. > > Does this also mean she loses the root on the enemy W? W does not need to last longer for allies since it depends on how much damage reduction you gain. If you get a lot for a short time it needs better timing and feels more usefull than a 5 second tether giving meh stats. You also get an dmg amp after that so if used right it should feel satisfying (you can use the dmg amp on your AA too). Yes this would leave W rootless. > So she only gets the heal if the bond isn't broken, meaning no more heal on cast? That feels bad. The Idea behind this was to trade the first heal for an aoe heal in the end and making things more risk-rewarding and add some counterplay/sign for allies. > The enemy and allies casts don't feel balanced properly against each other: Some numbers and tweaks are possible ofc. > Both the W and RW seem heavily skewed towards supporting, making her ally cast RW a bit pointless since it only gives flat resistances to allies and gives her AP she cant make good use of. On the other hand, if she goes AP she'll get a crazy amount of free AP around allies which would be multiplied by Rabadons - but would have no Mantra to use with it (she used it to get the AP). She does not get AP, just a magic damage amp so no rabadons interaction. Maybe I should mention that in this kit she has a passive to summon Twin Dragons so she is not entirely ally depending if she wants to amp her Q poke. Of course the damage is higher if you go in with your W. RW would still need work and polish yes; but I liked the base idea of drawing strength from your allies with it while protecting.
: > Of course there is the possibility of moving the heal to RQ and giving RW something new (but I guess you already thought of that). Then we have to think of something new for RW, which isn't an easy task since most suggestion here just miss the mark. > Recently I stumbled again across the idea to make her RQ somewhat like an equaliser (damage and heal depending on the health difference between allies and enemies). This sounds like an interesting spell, but potentially quite over powered. > A somewhat kindred ult like RQ could be possible (you can not die/ fall below certain threshhold). Definitely over powered lol. This kind of spell could never be a low CD multimate, that would require way too much power budget for Karma. > RQ could translate heals/shields to damage for enemies within. While dealing damage inside to allies will heal them instead. Not sure I understand this one, could you explain? > RQ swaps health of allies/enemies within if allies are lower. This sounds like your equalizer suggestion, but stronger? > RQ marks enemies. When attacked, allies are healed/shielded etc. Lackluster, would make more sense on a dedicated support. > Create a protective area, which has a shield (indicator around the circle on the ground). Each time an allies within is damaged, the area shield is drained instead. Very interesting idea, but in the wrong place (not RQ). Something like this would be a really cool spell on a different champ or a Karma VGU though. > RQ creates an area in which damage dealt to allies is reduced. Would probably end up very unsatisfying and hard to appreciate. > RQ marks allies (either impact area or maybe around Karma upon casting). Attacking allies deals damage to that enemy. Unsatisfying. > RQ grants magic immunity within. Interesting, but again this feels like it should be somewhere else, not RQ. > RQ grants "Awareness" to allies (allies cant be damaged by sources outside of it). A ranged Xin Zhao ult? She wouldn't have the budget, not a multimate ability. Most of these ideas feel like they are trying too hard to force a theme without a feasible gameplay goal. They sound cool thematically, but I don't think its good idea to add something just because its thematic if it doesn't make sense and/or isn't satisfying.
> Most of these ideas feel like they are trying too hard to force a theme without a feasible gameplay goal. They sound cool thematically, but I don't think its good idea to add something just because its thematic if it doesn't make sense and/or isn't satisfying. I usually write down most of my ideas, no matter how OP or lackluster they might be, because I could inspire others (or myself) to make something better out of it. I am also a very... visual idea typ? I mostly think of an alternate version of an ability (like visuals) and then think of how that could be translated ingame or I just throw out random ideas XD > Then we have to think of something new for RW, which isn't an easy task since most suggestion here just miss the mark. My latest W idea is around drawing strength from your allies. **[W] Focused Resolve** Karma bonds to a champion, twin dragon or epic monster for 2 Seconds. While bonded, she gains +5/ 10/ 15/ 20/ 25 (+1% AP) armor and magic resistance. If she is bonded to an ally, the Ally will benefit from the armor and magic resisatnce gain as well. If the bond persists for 2 seconds, it will deal 80/ 140/ 200/ 260 (+90% AP) magic damage to the bounded enemy or, if Karma was bond to an ally, enchant the next damage dealt to an enemy by Karma by half that amount for 2 seconds. (Bond could also deal damage as soon as its broken (so it always does damage), however the damage ramps up and doubled if the bond entirely persists, making you always want to get out of it. But I felt the high risk rewards fits more a battlemage and makes more sense for the defense stats.) **[RW] Renewal** Enemy target: If the bond is not broken, it will also heal Karma and all allies within 600 Range of her for 60/ 120/ 180/ 240 (+60% AP) increased by 1% per 3% of their missing health. Allied target: Karma binds to all allies within range, granting them additionally 7/13/19/ 25 + (1% AP) armor and magicresistance. For each Bond persisting, except for the primary target bond, she gains +10/ 30/ 50/ 70 (+15% AP) magic damage on her next damage done on enemies within 4 seconds. (like Morgana but instead of enemies she bonds to allies). > RQ could translate heals/shields to damage for enemies within. While dealing damage inside to allies will heal them instead. When an enemy is standing inside RQ and is healed/shielded, the enemy is damaged instead. Allies inside are healed/shielded instead of being damaged. Ill let you know if I come across more fancy ideas here on boards (or if you want to I could add you in skype and occasionally annoy you with ideas/open a discussion group?).
: How about something like this: P: _Twin Dragons_ Passively, _8/12/16%_ of the damage dealt by Karma to minions and monsters, doubled when damaging champions, is stored as a shield charge, up to a cap of _25/50/75 + (0.65 AP)_. This charge lasts until _2/3/4_ seconds after Karma exits combat, then decays at a rate of _10%_ per second. Passively, _10/15/20%_ of the damage blocked by shields, doubled when the damage came from a champion, is added as bonus magic damage on her abilities, up to a cap of _50/75/100 + (0.70 AP)_. This charge lasts until _2/3/4_ seconds after Karma exits combat, then decays at a rate of _10%_ per second. There would most likely have to be some nerfs to her shield and Q, as well as a change to her ult's CD. Despite that, I feel like this is more thematically fitting than her current passive. She gains damage by protecting herself and others and shields herself and others better by dealing damage. Just seems Karma-like.
I have been thinking of something like that (practically an athenes that not only increases heal but also grants damages charges when you shield/heal). This could work, however it would really be passively then.
: Precisely. So, twin dragons and enhanced decision making. I'm still trying to figure out a way to tie in duality with her current kit in a way newer Karma players can appreciate. I can see RW (heal ally/tether damage enemy) and RE (shield bomb) can be double sided abilities, but not RQ. Can you? In the end I just come back to the abstract damage/utility for RQ i.e target selection and Mantra scaling slow.
> I can see RW (heal ally/tether damage enemy) and RE (shield bomb) can be double sided abilities, but not RQ. Can you? I can bomb you with stuff. XD **Heal/Health-interacting RQ:** * Of course there is the possibility of moving the heal to RQ and giving RW something new (but I guess you already thought of that). * Recently I stumbled again across the idea to make her RQ somewhat like an equaliser (damage and heal depending on the health difference between allies and enemies). * A somewhat kindred ult like RQ could be possible (you can not die/ fall below certain threshhold). * RQ could translate heals/shields to damage for enemies within. While dealing damage inside to allies will heal them instead. * RQ swaps health of allies/enemies within if allies are lower. * RQ marks enemies. When attacked, allies are healed/shielded etc. **Shield like RQ:** * Create a protective area, which has a shield (indicator around the circle on the ground). Each time an allies within is damaged, the area shield is drained instead. **Something protective/Karmic:** * RQ creates an area in which damage dealt to allies is reduced. * RQ marks allies (either impact area or maybe around Karma upon casting). Attacking allies deals damage to that enemy. * RQ grants magic immunity within. * RQ grants "Awareness" to allies (allies cant be damaged by sources outside of it). Thats what came spontanously to my mind. If you want I can try to think of something more. EDIT: I am currently working on a "double Mantra" concept: The Passive grants a mantra like empower (more of the same stuff) while Mantra adds a duality theme on it.
: Precisely. So, twin dragons and enhanced decision making. I'm still trying to figure out a way to tie in duality with her current kit in a way newer Karma players can appreciate. I can see RW (heal ally/tether damage enemy) and RE (shield bomb) can be double sided abilities, but not RQ. Can you? In the end I just come back to the abstract damage/utility for RQ i.e target selection and Mantra scaling slow.
> I can see RW (heal ally/tether damage enemy) and RE (shield bomb) can be double sided abilities, but not RQ. Can you? I can bomb you with stuff. XD **Heal/Health-interacting RQ:** * Of course there is the possibility of moving the heal to RQ and giving RW something new (but I guess you already thought of that). * Recently I stumbled again across the idea to make her RQ somewhat like an equaliser (damage and heal depending on the health difference between allies and enemies). * A somewhat kindred ult like RQ could be possible (you can not die/ fall below certain threshhold). * RQ could translate heals/shields to damage for enemies within. While dealing damage inside to allies will heal them instead. * RQ swaps health of allies/enemies within if allies are lower. * RQ marks enemies. When attacked, allies are healed/shielded etc. **Shield like RQ:** * Create a protective area, which has a shield (indicator around the circle on the ground). Each time an allies within is damaged, the area shield is drained instead. **Something protective/Karmic:** * RQ creates an area in which damage dealt to allies is reduced. * RQ marks allies (either impact area or maybe around Karma upon casting). Attacking allies deals damage to that enemy. * RQ grants magic immunity within. * RQ grants "Awareness" to allies (allies cant be damaged by sources outside of it). Thats what came spontanously to my mind. If you want I can try to think of something more.
: Wise and enlightened both boil down to the same thing, and no her kit doesn't demonstrate wisdom/enlightenment. It kind of did before 5.10 - but that's another conversation entirely. The question is, how do we convey spiritual magic and wisdom/enlightenment in game?
In lore it says Karmas spiritual magic took the forms of twin dragons... so yeah. I think the wisdom part should be represented via the player by her kit (mostly mantra), in short: **Decision making**. Thats what felt somehow wise with old Karma: How do I use my shield? Defensive? offensive? How can i get both? Should I Mantra now or save it? With Mantra giving new (opposite) effects it really gave her a tool. And maybe - just a little - it let us experience how Karma is torn between tradition and revolution as we are torn between what to use, when to use and who to focus/aim at. Edit: I know thats something you have with every character (what/when/who?) but for Karma it should be even more important since failing her Mantra means to fail 2 abilities at once. And thats why its different for Karma: On the one hand Mantra gives her real versatility and decision making on the other it is a burden to use because if you miss you are punished tripple - you missed 2 abilities and cut off your versatility. And that is why a wise decision could be highlighted for a dualistic Mantra.
: That whole "Mantra cooldown reduction" thing should have been part of **Mantra** itself in the first place. I do like her current passive, but it just feels like a filler, rather than an actual passive ability.
Indeed, Karmas VGU was made in a time where Riot didnt had much experience with reworking champs (and no dedicated team to do so). Also she was leaked, which made Riot to rush her. The passive works kitwise somehow with her Mantra but it has almost nothing to do with her previous identity. It really feels an emergency solution.
: Hey Warden. First of all, + 1 xD. Just want to touch on one thing: > does not fit her theme (wise leader who wants to protect her people vs ravenous woman who siphons power out from damaging enemies) At this point, we have no confirmation what her theme is **actually** supposed be. Being a 'wise leader who wants to protect her people' is who she is + her motive, but not really a theme. Karma's spells allude to her being some kind of spirit mage, but since she's lost duality her theme needs fleshing out. That being said, her passive doesn't really go for or against her being a 'wise leader' or a spirit mage. It's purely there for gameplay purposes and it in that regard it serves her well. Best case scenario - Riot nerfs her current passive, moves it to her Mantra and gives her a new innate.
Well for someone who is titled "the enlighted one" I would expect wisdom (she got the glows during the VGU because it was her title and they thought it would be fitting so she is called the enlighted one because she is wise not because she glows sometimes). Also her lore (e.g. Karma embraced these traditions as an essential aspect of the enlightenment sought by all Ionians) and voice over (To conquer one's self is to conquer all; I have seen two paths and made another between) suggests that Karma is a wise leader. I dont think someone can be enlightnend without being wise in some way. Its not so clear kitwise but thats how I think it is.
: Solution: Make RQ a ground targeted projectile. Improves target selection, waveclear and counter play for enemies at max range.
That would be one way. I like this idea, however I can not let go of the classic conic q. I know its very unlikely for Riot to bring it back, especailly after her current Q became so important for Karma. It would be hard to give her a tool which is like old and new Q. Giving her a passive which lets her swith between conic and poke might not feel good. Simply putting it on another ability (W/E) would take away important parts of her too (tether,shield). And a conic blasting RE shield... I am not sure off, thoug it would solve the "RE is too easy to hit in teamfights" and add even more skillexpression to the shieldbomb (but also takes a away some aspects of the classic circular damage bomb). One possibility I went through was that Q becomes conic when Mantra'd. Would look something like that: https://s1.postimg.org/1cm4lmm3un/RQ_Windcone.gif
Ahris (NA)
: She is getting reworked.
> [{quoted}](name=Ahris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BjakxrbE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-10-22T21:23:12.164+0000) > > She is getting reworked. I know, I just wanted to raise attention as for why her current passive is not working as a innate.^^
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: I really like this idea. I think there are two good ways you could implement it: One would be to make it rather niche and hone-in on what made you think of this rune to begin with, and that's allowing it to be used only when a spell has, say, 10 sec before it's back up. This would be more useful in the case of a summoner spell or ultimate ability. So it could be something like: Can't Wait -- "You may use your ultimate or a summoner spell when it's within 10 seconds of coming off cooldown. Doing so grants a temporary effect based on what spell you used and puts this rune on cooldown." (This is since it'd be a rather weak rune otherwise and it also brings back the oldschool effects for using summoners, tho these effects could be different from the old of course) The other way to implement something like this would be to have it only apply to basic abilities (Q, W, E). So that way you don't necessarily have to worry about a time window, just the fact the spell's on cooldown: Rewind -- "You may use one of your basic abilities while it's on cooldown, but doing so puts your other basic spells on cooldown." I obviously chose the name for the latter example since the effect is straight out of Zillean's kit. I think this version could prove to be a very interesting rune and by putting all your spells on cooldown after using it, I don't think the rune itself would need a cooldown and it could be an interesting way to balance the effect. The big thing would be how a player would actually SEE or experience this effect in-game. Zillean has a dedicated spell for this, the visuals are clear for him. But if there're no visual cues, a player may even forget they have this rune equipped... not sure what I'd do. Maybe have your abilities semi-highlighted when this rune is applicable WITH the timer on it still?
> Can't Wait -- "You may use your ultimate or a summoner spell when it's within 10 seconds of coming off cooldown. Doing so grants a temporary effect based on what spell you used and puts this rune on cooldown." (This is since it'd be a rather weak rune otherwise and it also brings back the oldschool effects for using summoners, tho these effects could be different from the old of course) > Rewind -- "You may use one of your basic abilities while it's on cooldown, but doing so puts your other basic spells on cooldown." The problem I ran into with "in times of need" is that it will certainly be abused by assassins when it allows you to double cast things. Even if other abilities are put on cd they still can use their burst twice. There are also some who get their escape/burst back (like {{champion:55}} , {{champion:18}} ...) when they kill... The other thing is with the 10 seconds flat ultimate/summoner, which will be very problematic on low cd ult champs like {{champion:99}} {{champion:43}}. Karma for example would easily be able to triple cast her ultimate within ~4 seconds (with the passive buff on pbe). Also {{champion:84}} {{champion:131}} etc. might abuse that a lot. That is why I added so much conditions to it. Of course it will have a clear visual indicator.
Cowseed (NA)
: Question. Is this like a keystone rune or is it just one of those lower tier things. Also 10% of an ult thats 100-120 seconds is like 10-12 seconds. Is it affected by cooldowns or does it use the base cooldown. You can early cast it but you're ally has to be low. But this also means that initiators can help trigger it as well as divers and assasins. This might not be too much of a problem though because as you say it's gonna get back twice the time shaved off on the next cooldown. This means that it would be something that needs real time communication to really use offensively. Then this brings up a whole new layer of balancing for proplay. Its a _very_ interesting rune but it opens a whole lot o' questions. I can't really see this as being the new thunderlords or CoC though. Because ultimately its still to the user _when_ they use it because they only get the early cast every other cast and have to be burdened with a delayed cast.
Up to Riot, which type of rune this one will be, but I guess since its potential high impact it would be more of a keystone. The % remaining cdr is based on the cd of the ability (with cdr). So when you have 40% cdr the %remaining becomes also smaller.
: How do you activate this ability though?
Most likely ist will auto-trigger when the conditions are fulfilled and you try to cast an ability on cd.
: really cool idea for supports. riot wont do it tho as they already filled all there runes slots
Riot said, that they will likely implement more runes over time.
: I like this idea. Maybe make it so that it can, at most, get you 20% of the CD or something, so you can't double cast abilities, even utility ones.
It was never intended to make you able to double cast things; I made some tweaks, which hopefully helps.
: Cool idea, but should never be implementable in any form and here is why. I'm sure your idea behind this is to use it defensively when you have CCed some one but then another enemy appears and you need a way of escaping., but it is easily abused offensively. Imagine some one like {{champion:89}} Leona with this, she could easily perma stun/root you for 4 seconds from her alone. E>Q>R>Q. Or {{champion:412}} Thresh, who can Stun lock you for 3 seconds from Q alone, on top of pulling you an insane distance, then popping you back even further with W, and then slowing you with R. Or {{champion:67}} Vayne who could double E you into a wall stunning your for 3 seconds....a 3 second stun on an Hyper Carry.....GG Or Imagine 2 {{champion:45}} Veiger Es out at the same time CCing and hard zoning even more area. Yea no thank you. 1 of 2 things would happen with this. 1. Its so OP every one is forced to run {{summoner:1}} and {{summoner:4}} no matter what lane you are in. 2. the CC from the second cast is reduced to such a minuscule amount that its useless. (Because even a .25 or a .5s stun on a second Veiger E out would be insanely OP.)
Sozan5 is correct, you can not simply double cast things. But yes, the intended use is defensively.
Shyne (NA)
: sounds nice but to easy to abuse imo. A rune to be able to charm someone twice or throw out a 2nd bubble would be way to op. with this rune its basically saying its ok to miss a skill shot or miss some form of CC you'll just be able to get a redo. Nah i dont like this in the least. And where would someone draw the line on abilitys you could "recast"? It sounds like a neat idea but personally its just going to be abused out the ass and putting a limit on ability's you can use it with already makes this a bad idea. Immediately thought ok i'm playing ahri and in the 25th minute near baron i miss a key charm on the jungler with baron hp nearing 1k i can immediately recast this and give my jungler the easy steal? Wheres the skill in that?
Keep in mind, that you still have to wait for the skillshot to reach a certain point of cooldown, something between 1 and 2 seconds, which leaves you and your mates vulnerable for a few seconds. Also the points you make apply to cooldown reduction in generell, which can have much more impact (40-45% cdr). So as Ahri, you have a static cooldown of 12 on your charm. With 45% cdr thats 6.6 seconds. The rune might reduce it by 2 more seconds. So you would still need to wait for 4.6 seconds, which means its not double cast. People always try to abuse things. Thats why things need tweaking ^^
Mogarl (NA)
: Could do something like Abilities can be cast while up to .5 + 5%-10% of their cooldown is remaining. I personally prefer the abilities taking on the left over cooldown, but I would also put the rune on cooldown for [flat amount + 50% of spells cooldown] the flat amount ensures it won't be abused by short cooldowns and the percent ensures that long spells don't get off too easily.
Good idea, might work well.
: > [{quoted}](name=Warden Karma,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BO2LFOUn,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-10-05T15:26:24.298+0000) >(like doubling the cooldown of that ability afterwards or giving it increased cooldown). > >be {{champion:30}} >see the enemy {{champion:67}} super low HP in the bot lane, recalling >have 2 secs on ult >use this rune >mfw 400 second cooldown
Well it must not be that the ability cooldown is doubled/ multiplied; most likely it will only get the 2 secs more, or a mulptiple of the cd reduced (like 6 seconds with 3x 2 seconds for example)
Kaeblen (NA)
: It would increase burst damage considerably. the likelihood of going through 2 full rotations on one burst would... well it normally isn't possible now, but this rune would make it happen.
A way to prevent bursting might be that maybe not all abilities can trigger this rune (e.g. only abilities with utility/CC (maybe slow excluded?) on them). That way most assassins would not be able to use this rune to burst insanely.
Shadòw (EUW)
: This could cause issues with things like {{champion:8}} Q, as you would be able to recast it before your bar is full for example, making it unpredictable for opponents. Another problem here would maybe be abilities that already have almost no CD, for example {{champion:121}} would be able to insta cast Q 2 times on a isolated target, which will probably every squishy almost instant.
A few tweaks might prevent assassins to abuse it. Also this rune will be most likely on the Inspire path.
Doozku (NA)
: Seems like it's be really op on champions like kha'zix who have low cooldown high damage spells. Imagine khazix's running around and double Q one shitting everyone like old Rengar.
That surely depends on how riot implements this rune. Will it have a cooldown? Will it work for all abilities? In which path will it be (inspire seems likely)? But yea I see the possible problem.
Eeyore (EUW)
: In my opinion, the cooldown of the ability shouldn't change - instead, the rune should go on cooldown based on the time you borrowed. For example: Borrowed Time * You may activate your abilities while they are on cooldown. You cannot borrow more than 2-10 seconds (based on game time) at a time, and borrowing any amount of time puts Borrowed Time on cooldown equal to five-times the time borrowed. Abilities activated early go on cooldown as normal. So early game you can borrow 2 seconds every 10 seconds. Late game you can borrow 10 seconds every 50 seconds.
As I wrote, the cooldown reduced can be the same or multiple of the amount it was reduced. Whether Riot wants to give it a cooldown or not is up to them. The specific interaction (cooldown of rune/ ability goes on normal cd etc.) can work as well. Your way might stop abusing/ too often usage.
: Honestly it seems to fall in line with alot of the runes riot is making. Ie gain free boots at 10 mins but you cant buy boots before that, Go in debt at the shop.
Yea, those runes give you the possibility to go around common experienced problems/noisances. You need just a little more gold to buy things. - use dept. You can not afford to buy shoes early cause of the other things you need - use boot rune. And with this rune you are more likely to never think or write this again: "0.5 seconds and i would have killed/saved you ;( " etc.
: > [{quoted}](name=Chemtech Ionian,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BO2LFOUn,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-10-05T15:15:26.810+0000) > > I like it. Double karthus ult or double zed ult would be exciting. i dont think thats how this works, maybe anivia or swain ult but it says it has to have a short remaining cooldown ie-short cooldown abilities benefit more from this
Yes, short cooldown abilities might be benefiting from this, but in the end it will only grant you increased power at the start, after you used the rune those abilities will have extra cooldown on them, which means you are more restricted afterwards.
: I like it. Double karthus ult or double zed ult would be exciting.
I think being able to double cast your ultimate would be beyond overpowered for most champs. But keep in mind that this rune will either have a cooldown on itself or a drawback (like doubling the cooldown of that ability afterwards or giving it increased cooldown). The idea behind this is to have access to an ability (on cd) to help you turn around the battle but in return will weaken you (extra cooldown) afterwards. So you shift your cooldowns a bit, which can be extremely usefull.
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Warden Karma

Level 134 (EUW)
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