: Now that I think of it, Diana may need a small nerf come 8.4.
51% winrate with 2% playrate (meaning likely its mostly her mains and other dedicated diana players playing her) is actually quite bad. If it was 51% winrate at a 10% playrate itd be balanced, because it means shes picked by a heap of players, right now its only experienced players and yet they only get her barely above 50%
: **DECISION TO GANK** > Score has 2 options. Respect the bubbles potential to drop a free escape and not go for the gank, or go for the gank anyway and risk wasting time. No matter which option he chooses, the rng has already influenced the game here in a way he can not play around. False. He can play around the fact that it's Zoe and go for a gank in a different lane. Respecting a strong Zoe and her W and not going for the gank because of the chance she might outplay me is already an example of the Jungler playing around it. That's the same as me not ganking a strong Akali because I think she has her W up and could outplay me. The bubbles are part of her W ABILITY, the same as any other champion. Why does Zoe and her abilities not deserve the same respect as any other champion? Consequently, the decision to go for the gank isn't determined by the RNG of Zoe's bubbles either. It's determined by the judgement of the jungler, after seeing the situation that Zoe is in, whether she is overextended or not, and whether they have enough tools to kill her **even accounting for her bubbles.** In both cases, Jungler would have had to make against any other champion anyway. The jungler would have had to ask the same question, "Can we get this enemy despite her abilities?" and would have decided based on their judgement anyway. By Meddler's definition, "good RNG" allows players to show their adaptability, adding another type of skill test in addition to the others already present in the game (mechanical skill, coordination with team mates, etc). It can create unexpected situations that test quick thinking, allow unusual actions and can be really exciting. Sounds to me like when it comes to the decision to gank, Zoe's Bubbles are actually GOOD RNG, not bad. _________________________________________________________ **OUTCOME OF THE GANK** > Viktor is not in a position to deny her the bubble, and even if he was, the amount of pressure he has to exert in lane or the amount of pressure that is relieved from him, is again, decided by the RNG. Not really a fair point. If instead of Viktor, he was playing say Lucian mid, then he could easily deny Zoe's chance to get the bubble. Lane pressure is far less influenced by Zoe's RNG bubbles and far more by champion choice and player skill. This entire scenario you gave isn't a good example of Zoe's bubbles being bad RNG, because your entire argument in this part basically rests on the assumption that Zoe's RNG bubbles would unreasonably determine the outcomes of ganks against her. But that scenario assumed the jungler would not have taken Zoe's abilities into account, and it assumed that somehow the laner himself could not contribute to the gank. Even in the rare scenario that Zoe did get a last-second Flash / Cleanse / Barrier / Exhaust / etc and undeniably escaped a gank by using it, who's to say that the laner and the jungler couldn't have still succeeded if they had started the gank one second earlier, or what if one of them had the foresight to account for a last-second Flash after seeing the bubble and pre-empt it by placing a skill shot where she'd land? _________________________________________________________ **WINNING LANE** > Maybe if they played this match-up 100 times, Viktor wins lane 70 times because lets just say that he is a better viktor player than faker is a zoe player. 30% of those games he will not win lane, because Zoe gets lucky summoner drops. You've shoe-horned your example to exemplify output randomness. **I F** this situation occurred that frequently, then yes, it'll be mostly luck-based, and that's bad RNG. But in the vast majority of cases, Zoe winning lane could occur due to any number of things, and most reasonably it would happen due to player skill, and assuming equal skill between both players, champion match-up. > In my opinion if Zoe wins even 1% of lanes because of lucky summoner drops, then it is too much. Even in this scenario, the Zoe player would still have to make the decision on how to USE the W. The summoner drops don't automatically use themselves. In which case, you can't really claim that Zoe winning lane in that scenario is entirely luck-based. __________________________________________________________________ **IMPACT OF ZOE'S RNG** > It could be useless, it could be great, you don't know, and what it is going to drop will affect your playstyle, but you don't know till it drops. And even if you did know, you will get situations where its "Oh great, I can't all-in Zoe because there's an ignite bubble entering lane so its making it much more risky." So what if you don't know? The point you are advocating is that it's bad RNG, which your statement doesn't prove at all. All it proves is that it **I S** RNG, but not whether it's good or bad RNG. Anyway, Meddler already addressed this in his post, saying: > Occurrences of randomness are clearly telegraphed, minions are marked and the abilities they drop are guaranteed to spawn away from Zoe, ensuring it takes a bit more time for her to pick them up. Their impact is also based off how Zoe uses whatever she picks up, not the moment something drops." He's right. As I've already said, Zoe player would still have to make the decision on how to use the W. And if it just so happens that the drop rate of certain actives are causing stuations to turn more luck-based than intended, Meddler has already said they'll tune it. ___________________________________________________________________ **TLDR:** Most of your post keeps emphasizing that Zoe's bubbles are "bad RNG", but what you really mean is that Zoe's bubbles are "RNG that could be bad for Zoe's enemy."
> [{quoted}](name=xxxDogmanxxx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gsMQ8FvP,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2017-12-15T11:12:16.601+0000) > > **DECISION TO GANK** > > False. He can play around the fact that it's Zoe and going for a gank in a different lane. Respecting a strong Zoe and her W and not going for the gank because of the chance she might outplay me is already an example of the Jungler playing around it. That's the same as me not ganking a strong Akali because I think she has her W up and could outplay me. The bubbles are part of her W ABILITY, the same as any other champion. Why does Zoe and her abilities not deserve the same respect as any other champion? > > Consequently, the decision to go for the gank isn't determined by the RNG of Zoe's bubbles either. It's determined by the judgement of the jungler, after seeing the situation that Zoe is in, whether she is overextended or not, and whether they have enough tools to kill her **even accounting for her bubbles.** > > In both cases, Jungler would have had to make against any other champion anyway. The jungler would have had to ask the same question, "Can we get this enemy despite her abilities?" and would have decided based on their judgement anyway. > > By Meddler's definition, "good RNG" allows players to show their adaptability, adding another type of skill test in addition to the others already present in the game (mechanical skill, coordination with team mates, etc). It can create unexpected situations that test quick thinking, allow unusual actions and can be really exciting. > > Sounds to me like when it comes to the decision to gank, Zoe's Bubbles are actually GOOD RNG, not bad. > _________________________________________________________ > > **OUTCOME OF THE GANK** > > Not really a fair point. If instead of Viktor, he was playing say Lucian mid, then he could easily deny Zoe's chance to get the bubble. Lane pressure is far less influenced by Zoe's RNG bubbles and far more by champion choice and player skill. > > This entire scenario you gave isn't a good example of Zoe's bubbles being bad RNG, because your entire argument in this part basically rests on the assumption that Zoe's RNG bubbles would unreasonably determine the outcomes of ganks against her. But that scenario assumed the jungler would not have taken Zoe's abilities into account, and it assumed that somehow the laner himself could not contribute to the gank. > > Even in the rare scenario that Zoe did get a last-second Flash / Cleanse / Barrier / Exhaust / etc and undeniably escaped a gank by using it, who's to say that the laner and the jungler couldn't have still succeeded if they had started the gank one second earlier, or what if one of them had the foresight to account for a last-second Flash after seeing the bubble and pre-empt it by placing a skill shot where she'd land? > > _________________________________________________________ > > **WINNING LANE** > > You've shoe-horned your example to exemplify output randomness. **I F** this situation occurred that frequently, then yes, it'll be mostly luck-based, and that's bad RNG. But in the vast majority of cases, Zoe winning lane could occur due to any number of things, and most reasonably it would happen due to player skill, and assuming equal skill between both players, champion match-up. > > Even in this scenario, the Zoe player would still have to make the decision on how to USE the W. The summoner drops don't automatically use themselves. In which case, you can't really claim that Zoe winning lane in that scenario is entirely luck-based. > > __________________________________________________________________ > > **IMPACT OF ZOE'S RNG** > > So what if you don't know? The point you are advocating is that it's bad RNG, which your statement doesn't prove at all. All it proves is that it **I S** RNG, but not whether it's good or bad RNG. > > Anyway, Meddler already addressed this in his post, saying: > > He's right. As I've already said, Zoe player would still have to make the decision on how to use the W. And if it just so happens that the drop rate of certain actives are causing stuations to turn more luck-based than intended, Meddler has already said they'll tune it. > > ___________________________________________________________________ > > > **TLDR:** Most of your post keeps emphasizing that Zoe's bubbles are "bad RNG", but what you really mean is that Zoe's bubbles are "RNG that could be bad for Zoe's enemy." It doesnt matter how you look at it, these are just examples. The rng could be bad for Zoe too but she CANNOT rely on her RNG to get an advantage, but the enemy player is supposed to rely on her not getting good RNG Either way, doesnt matter who the benefactor is, it is bad RNG because you cant play around it nearly as much as other forms of RNG. By the time im ganking and she gets a lucky bubble ive already wasted my time, which is crucial in the early game. You claim its "good" rng that her bubbles can luck her out of a gank, but you dont go on to explain why it is or how this is healthy in anyway and i know why you didnt, because it isnt. This not rng you can play around, and even if you can, it has already had its impact into the game, decided by a diceroll, instead of playerskill.
: > If it was spawns a favorable spell/active than Zoe got a FREE gank escape because of the RNG A "free" gank escape? It's literally her entire W ability. Fizz/Morgana has a constant "free" gank escape with their E. It's not free if you're entire ability revolves around only being able to be activated conditionally
> [{quoted}](name=LadyRenly,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gsMQ8FvP,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-12-14T15:47:12.606+0000) > > A "free" gank escape? It's literally her entire W ability. Fizz/Morgana has a constant "free" gank escape with their E. It's not free if you're entire ability revolves around only being able to be activated conditionally Yes but then it is a part of their kit. You can rely on it. With Zoe you cant rely on anything, you never know, sometimes she is as free to gank as a lux, other times she is harder to gank than a leblanc, and you dont know till she kills the bubble minion and by then youve already invested time&resources thats the problem, its randomly decided what she can do and what you can do about it
: I think the issue with Zoe is not so much the fact that they have RNG incorporated into her kit, but there has been little in the way to explain what abilities are available at what points in the game - the lack of information about her current RNG is the problem. When you take a champion such as Kindred that has innate RNG built into the stacking mechanic, I feel like Riot eventually learned that this needed to be adjusted to offer not only power to the player but also provide the other team with information as to how she may move through the game in order to obtain those stacks. Zoe needs to have certain abilities gated by the length of the game, removing oppressive summoners such as flash / teleport until after the 6-8 minute mark. Allowing for a heal or an exhaust should be relatively less oppressive in the long term. I still think that a very skilled player can utilize the sleepy bubble a little too easily in order to poke out or kill an enemy laner. As long as a solution is found that provides information to both the player and the opposing team allowing some semblance of counter play that promotes skill on both sides of the rift I think Zoe is a smashing success.
> [{quoted}](name=NF Kuddles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gsMQ8FvP,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-14T15:25:07.879+0000) > > I think the issue with Zoe is not so much the fact that they have RNG incorporated into her kit, but there has been little in the way to explain what abilities are available at what points in the game - the lack of information about her current RNG is the problem. > > When you take a champion such as Kindred that has innate RNG built into the stacking mechanic, I feel like Riot eventually learned that this needed to be adjusted to offer not only power to the player but also provide the other team with information as to how she may move through the game in order to obtain those stacks. > > Zoe needs to have certain abilities gated by the length of the game, removing oppressive summoners such as flash / teleport until after the 6-8 minute mark. Allowing for a heal or an exhaust should be relatively less oppressive in the long term. I still think that a very skilled player can utilize the sleepy bubble a little too easily in order to poke out or kill an enemy laner. > > As long as a solution is found that provides information to both the player and the opposing team allowing some semblance of counter play that promotes skill on both sides of the rift I think Zoe is a smashing success. I dont think it really solves it though. Perhaps you are playing against a splitpusher and his team is doing the classic splitpush+doing baron, with tp on their splitpusher incase your team engages. Then your Zoe gets a teleport drop, and can ruin that entire strategy because of a random drop. Wheras in the next game, youre in the same situation but zoe doesnt get a teleport drop, and you lose. So the RNG is deciding who gains the advantage here, instead of player skill. Kindred had RNG which I also didnt like but the thing with her old system was, if you go to the enemy raptors side theres a 66% chance it spawns on either raptors or scuttle. And you could influence later marks by killing camps so for example you kill their krugs and raptors so now it has to spawn blue side, you could very much play around it. Zoe gets the drops and they can have impact instantly :/
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 13
>Zoe - Occurrences of randomness are clearly telegraphed, with minions are marked and the abilities they drops guaranteed to spawn away from Zoe, ensuring it takes a bit more time for her to pick them up. Their impact is based off how Zoe uses whatever she picks up, not the moment something drops (exception: if Zoe instantly picks up and uses something with immediate combat impact). Yet to be seen whether we've got the appropriate items, drop rates, drop positions etc right though. That's a subject of some debate internally, especially around Gunblade and TP. Certainly creates some really interesting and creative moments, impact can sometimes feel heavily influenced by what just dropped in early laning and just before roaming. I think you guys missed the mark here. Zoe gets drops that impact the entire map. If Im about to gank a Zoe and she gets a lucky cleanse drop then Ive wasted my time - because of the RNG. I cant play around it in time, because Ive already invested my time, and I cant respect every bubble minion. There is no playing around this, either she gets lucky or doesnt. Same thing with Gunblades and redemptions. Maybe I will play my matchup 100 times vs zoe and win 90 times but lose 10 because she gets drops that are too good giving her an advantage. This is not even comparable to elemental drake RNG, where you have much more time to prepare. To top it off, if zoe gets access to a redemption your midlaner might be able to play around it, but if bot is just about to all in they either cant do that now, because they have to respect the redemption, or they do and get screwed by the redemption drop, since there isnt as much communication in soloq and I doubt everyone outside of midlaners and junglers are constantly looking at Zoe and her potential drops. No matter how you put it - her RNG is very impactful and game changing. moreso than crits and elemental drakes because her drops are active earlier AND can potentially impact the entire map. With crit theres always going to be dmg. With Zoe you can get an easy lane in some matchups and sometimes its the hardest lane ever because she keeps getting good drops which you obviously cant deny. (how am I going to zone her off an ignite when she knows she will win the trade 100% if she picks it up?) I REALLY hope you see this and start to rethink her rng. Perhaps look to add a different system. Ive suggested one a reddit earlier, where I gained a lot of upvotes but was sadly ignored by rioter comments which is that you build an essence system into minion drops, a bit like souls or gps krakens, and at X amount of essence she can use her W for a "free" active/summoner edit: I really like her kit besides this. Its also the only reason I perma ban her, I do not want to lose a game because the enemy mid picks zoe and gets redemptions randomly or smites, it doesnt feel like i got outplayed, it makes me feel like i lost a diceroll and whatever I did had no impact
: So as the guy who did this, and Jhin’s lore... The character you love hasn’t changed. This simply expands the timeline and shows how Zed’s descent can be understood from his own perspective. This timeline was actually done during Jhin, and the goal was to give Zed’s fall a slower, more human, less arch, trajectory. Timeline (rough from my phone): Shen and Zed are students together and bros. Zed is clearly the better, more talented student. Kusho takes the two young teenagers undercover chasing “the golden demon” Jhin crime scenes traumatized zed. (And shen) Zed begans to struggle with his studies. Kusho catches but refuses to kill Jhin. Zed loses respect for his master. Zed begins to study forbidden shadow magic. —gets in trouble. Leaves. Noxus invades —zed witness war crimes. Kusho’s refusal to help the war effort is the last straw, Zed is no longer sympathetic or allied to the kinkou. While not directly opposed to them— he begins to view the kinkou as rivals. Zed forms his own order— related to the Navoi militia group. (Spelling?) Some vastaya tribes looking for a better deal, ally with the Noxus. Others fight for Ionia. Zed begins hostility with non- humans. The war is tough, zed returns to the take the last of the shadow magic. Kusho tries to stop him. Zed kills his master, shen’s dad. Shen becomes the eye of twilight. Kayn. The war ends. Zed begins consolidating power. Trains kayn. (He continues hostility with noxus, growing hostility with many Vastaya tribes.) Harrowing mists begin to bother the southern Ionia sea ports. Kayn gets raaast (around here i think) Jhin is frees.... by someone Zed finds out jhin is free. contacts Shen. Jhin heads to zaun. And yes, more on for this story is coming... and it will be expanded in some new ways. (Its on my desk today in fact)
this is great, this even confirms the older theories
: On a scale of one to Yasuo, how anime is Kayn going to be?
He's way to edgy, I hope they stop this edgyness. This season has been nothing but "edgy" releases, and its pushing me away from the game itself. Wheres my yordle/void/shadowisles/monster champions? Or lore skins, or just regular themes that arent duskbringer or godfist. also Hi Vladf*g
GahRii (NA)
: For people saying "carry your way out of bronze"...
Idk but Ive played 12 ranked games this season and I got kinda unlucky. 3 or 4 afkers and alot of trolls. Ironically, today I had to play support, and my favorite support picks were chosen so I said "Ill go poppy support" Our caitlyn and her premade friend start to flame me relentlessy because according to them Poppy cant be a support pick, I should uninstall, and whatnot. Ingame caitlyn decides not to farm and instead feed, Anyway I somehow got a kill on their support and after awhile caitlyn as if a miracle happened changed her/his attitude and started to farm, and play decently and we ended up winning the game.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: I am really fucking sick and tired of seeing Zed and Lee every fucking game
Im low silver, and I dont get how everyone assumes that lower elos ban zed and yasou. These are what I frequently see getting banned: Jax Mundo Brand Illaoi Rengar To a lesser extend: Miss fortune Vayne Garen And a twisted treeline special: Cho gath, outside of TT I dont see him getting banned much. By far most often banned are jax and mundo, basically every game. Ive seen yasou get banned too but nowhere near as frequent as the others. also the time that we banned him it was mostly because of his windwall blocking many ults on or team or something. Illa usually gets banned because she can go tanky and still win a 2v1, brand well, that aoe spell of him is hard to dodge and very annoying in laning phase, mundo we all know why and rengar/jax too I think. Maybe theres a site with stats on which elos ban which champions, so far the sites I use just have overall banrates. It kinda makes me wonder what platinum/diamond players most frequently ban.
: I say in champ select that im adc
you having played more games than him does not entitle you to have the ADC role. He had first pick, in general people go by who calls or picks first.
: ADCs=Whiniest
In my experience its mostly top laners that are whining. But I guess being an ADC can be frustrating, if youre playing for example vayne and your support just sits under the turret or far behind you farming becomes real hard, and always being focussed when noone defends you isnt fun either.
: Illaoi is OP
another annoying feature is that caitlins headshots get wasted on the tentacles. If you get 6 shots on a turret it will not use the headshot attack on the tower (or ward, trinket, or any other sort of 1-2-3 hit thingy that has no real HP) but it does use it on illaoi's tentacles. Also compare the tentacles to heimers turrets, heimers turrets are easy one hits mid to late game. Why dont they make the tentacles 2 hits instead of 3.

Werwar

Level 62 (EUW)
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