biggerB (EUW)
: Good Afternoon (?) Mr. Meddler. I do not usually comment much here but since you're touching up on Annie I thought I'd write a little bit about why she feels a bit underwhelming and why she might be deserving of some buffs. In my opinion; the core issue with Annie right now is that she is stuck building a mana item. This is a consequence of the mana nerfs which were levied on all mages in the mid season, but it was especially hard for Annie, mainly because before the nerfs, she was one of the few mages who could get away without building any mana. Annie could get away with not getting any lost chapter items, or even running manaflow band in runes and still had enough mana pool late game for 3-4 spell rotations which was usually enough for teamfighting. This meant that she had really adaptable build paths, she could build high mobility with Protobelt into longer range matchups in order to be relevant, she could build defensively with Liandry's Torment and Rylai's scepter, she could build straight up frontline mage with a MR item (something like the Abyssal Mask) and level her E second. She used these different build paths to bypass her weaknesses into weak matchups, things like long range artillery mages (e.g. Xerath, Ziggs etc.) Unfortunately, the fact that she has so little base mana in the late game means that you are forced as the Annie player to pretty much always build Luden's Echo as your first item (it is the only viable lost chapter item on her). You used to be able to skip a lost chapter item completely and build around her matchups. The buff you are considering will do almost nothing to compensate for this issue and might end up creating more issues around the balancing of support Annie (which the buff actually affects a lot), since it gives Annie in the support position the ability to easily proc her Aery / Spelltheif's edge.
> [{quoted}](name=biggerB,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=upj64E0i,comment-id=00a2,timestamp=2018-08-10T23:06:26.287+0000) > > Good Afternoon (?) Mr. Meddler. > > I do not usually comment much here but since you're touching up on Annie I thought I'd write a little bit about why she feels a bit underwhelming and why she might be deserving of some buffs. > > In my opinion; the core issue with Annie right now is that she is stuck building a mana item. This is a consequence of the mana nerfs which were levied on all mages in the mid season, but it was especially hard for Annie, mainly because before the nerfs, she was one of the few mages who could get away without building any mana. Annie could get away with not getting any lost chapter items, or even running manaflow band in runes and still had enough mana pool late game for 3-4 spell rotations which was usually enough for teamfighting. > > This meant that she had really adaptable build paths, she could build high mobility with Protobelt into longer range matchups in order to be relevant, she could build defensively with Liandry's Torment and Rylai's scepter, she could build straight up frontline mage with a MR item (something like the Abyssal Mask) and level her E second. She used these different build paths to bypass her weaknesses into weak matchups, things like long range artillery mages (e.g. Xerath, Ziggs etc.) > > Unfortunately, the fact that she has so little base mana in the late game means that you are forced as the Annie player to pretty much always build Luden's Echo as your first item (it is the only viable lost chapter item on her). You used to be able to skip a lost chapter item completely and build around her matchups. > > The buff you are considering will do almost nothing to compensate for this issue and might end up creating more issues around the balancing of support Annie (which the buff actually affects a lot), since it gives Annie in the support position the ability to easily proc her Aery / Spelltheif's edge. I completely agree with you, and in my opinion a specific change I would personally like to see on Annie (if RIOT is into reverting old nerfs as they mentioned the AA range nerf revert as a possible option) is her Tibbers summon radius hitbox getting reverted to how it was before the 6.9 mage update. Because in that patch this element was drastically nerfed and the worst part was that it wasn't even mentioned in the patch notes. Ever since this happened Annie feels especially clunky to play, because she is even more flash reliant than ever, and it's a miracle for her now to get even 2 people stunned by a well timed {{summoner:4}} Tibbers.
Kekistan (NA)
: it's obnoxious I have to open the thread to downvote you
> [{quoted}](name=Tristanl0l,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iKvhwlFE,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-08-10T23:53:14.335+0000) > > it's obnoxious I have to open the thread to downvote you Well how about instead of just downvoting you also help answer my questions
: She's one of those kits that is impossible to balance and unfun both to play and to play against. Raw numbers won't make her less obnoxious; she needs more major tweaks to how her spells work for that.
> [{quoted}](name=PopcornBunni,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iKvhwlFE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-08-10T22:09:47.181+0000) > > She's one of those kits that is impossible to balance and unfun both to play and to play against. Raw numbers won't make her less obnoxious; she needs more major tweaks to how her spells work for that. I completely agree that she has gameplay design flaws (operating with 2 basic abilities) that make her impossible to balance. And I'm fine with riot just deciding to nerf her to the ground so she isn't a big problem anymore, because they can't just delete / immediately rework a fairly new champion. I just don't understand how she is still obnoxiously hated and permabanned, when you could just be glad that someone is dumb enough to pick Zoe against you in your diamond promo so you can laugh while obliterating her with any mage capable of 100-0ing her with an all in.
Rioter Comments
: The main idea of Yasuo's gameplay is that he is given the tools a champion needs to outplay other champions. More specifically, his (conditionally) insane mobility that he can utilize in order to render skillshots useless, and his Windwall mechanic that allows him to deal with targeted (and not targeted) projectiles as well. The more unreliable your champion's kit is, the more likely you are going to struggle against Yasuo. And that leads to: pick a champion with a kit that is extremely reliable, meaning that it has few skillshots and focuses on targeted spells, or instant cast AoE abilities, especially ones that come with CC as well. Prime examples of this are: {{champion:1}} {{champion:127}} {{champion:90}} . {{champion:1}} Annie sucks against mages that outrange her, aka quite frankly the majority of them, but she excels against melee & mobile champions. Her stun is a giant zoning tool against any of them, and the fact that she can reliably stun Yasuo anytime he tries to get close with her W (because its unaffected by windwall) makes it easy for Annie to disengage or engage Yasuo (having the ability to reliably disengage Yasuo is the absolute most important thing you can do as a mage during the laning phase against Yasuo). It's also worth nothing that Annie's stun is NOT consumed if it is interrupted by her Q'ing into the windwall. Basically, Annie's extremely simple and reliable kit doesn't give room for Yasuo to outplay her. {{champion:127}} Lissandra is similar to {{champion:1}} in the sense that she's packed with short ranges and instant cast, reliable CC. Lissandra can reliably disengage Yasuo with her instant cast root W ability, and also has a point and click stun to further lock down Yasuo. or a free Zhonya. Getting your E blocked by windwall is kind of harsh tho. {{champion:90}} I don't personally play Malzahar, but once again: reliable point and click VERY HARD CC that doesn't give much room for Yasuo to outplay.
> [{quoted}](name=Whitneyz Miltank,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IWbrEGri,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2018-08-10T21:41:18.912+0000) > > The main idea of Yasuo's gameplay is that he is given the tools a champion needs to outplay other champions. More specifically, his (conditionally) insane mobility that he can utilize in order to render skillshots useless, and his Windwall mechanic that allows him to deal with targeted (and not targeted) projectiles as well. The more unreliable your champion's kit is, the more likely you are going to struggle against Yasuo. And that leads to: pick a champion with a kit that is extremely reliable, meaning that it has few skillshots and focuses on targeted spells, or instant cast AoE abilities, especially ones that come with CC as well. Prime examples of this are: {{champion:1}} {{champion:127}} {{champion:90}} . > > {{champion:1}} Annie sucks against mages that outrange her, aka quite frankly the majority of them, but she excels against melee & mobile champions. Her stun is a giant zoning tool against any of them, and the fact that she can reliably stun Yasuo anytime he tries to get close with her W (because its unaffected by windwall) makes it easy for Annie to disengage or engage Yasuo (having the ability to reliably disengage Yasuo is the absolute most important thing you can do as a mage during the laning phase against Yasuo). It's also worth nothing that Annie's stun is NOT consumed if it is interrupted by her Q'ing into the windwall. Basically, Annie's extremely simple and reliable kit doesn't give room for Yasuo to outplay her. > > {{champion:127}} Lissandra is similar to {{champion:1}} in the sense that she's packed with short ranges and instant cast, reliable CC. Lissandra can reliably disengage Yasuo with her instant cast root W ability, and also has a point and click stun to further lock down Yasuo. or a free Zhonya. Getting your E blocked by windwall is kind of harsh tho. > > {{champion:90}} I don't personally play Malzahar, but once again: reliable point and click VERY HARD CC that doesn't give much room for Yasuo to outplay. if the yasuo takes {{summoner:1}} tho then gg go troll
Iamgeyer (NA)
: Serious question, how do you deal with yasuo as a mage?
The main idea of Yasuo's gameplay is that he is given the tools a champion needs to outplay other champions. More specifically, his (conditionally) insane mobility that he can utilize in order to render skillshots useless, and his Windwall mechanic that allows him to deal with targeted (and not targeted) projectiles as well. The more unreliable your champion's kit is, the more likely you are going to struggle against Yasuo. And that leads to: pick a champion with a kit that is extremely reliable, meaning that it has few skillshots and focuses on targeted spells, or instant cast AoE abilities, especially ones that come with CC as well. Prime examples of this are: {{champion:1}} {{champion:127}} {{champion:90}} . {{champion:1}} Annie sucks against mages that outrange her, aka quite frankly the majority of them, but she excels against melee & mobile champions. Her stun is a giant zoning tool against any of them, and the fact that she can reliably stun Yasuo anytime he tries to get close with her W (because its unaffected by windwall) makes it easy for Annie to disengage or engage Yasuo (having the ability to reliably disengage Yasuo is the absolute most important thing you can do as a mage during the laning phase against Yasuo). It's also worth nothing that Annie's stun is NOT consumed if it is interrupted by her Q'ing into the windwall. Basically, Annie's extremely simple and reliable kit doesn't give room for Yasuo to outplay her. {{champion:127}} Lissandra is similar to {{champion:1}} in the sense that she's packed with short ranges and instant cast, reliable CC. Lissandra can reliably disengage Yasuo with her instant cast root W ability, and also has a point and click stun to further lock down Yasuo. or a free Zhonya. Getting your E blocked by windwall is kind of harsh tho. {{champion:90}} I don't personally play Malzahar, but once again: reliable point and click VERY HARD CC that doesn't give much room for Yasuo to outplay.
Ahris (NA)
: People say Annie is trash
Annie always had the identity of the simplest mage of the game who pays with multiple aspects of champion design to have her own, unique strength. I'm talking about how Annie sacrifices range, mobility, and maybe waveclear in a sense and in return she has: incredibly reliable AoE burst damage and heavy CC. You will not find yourself in the situation of a Lux player who just deemed herself useless in a teamfight because she missed every single skillshot she has which means her entire kit. Annie's laning phase matchups have always been "the longer the range of the enemy, the worse for Annie" and it is still like that today. In addition, she is quite vulnerable to ganks because of her absolutely nonexistent mobility, and her only form of CC being conditional. As I mentioned already, her waveclear is also mediocre, since she doesn't max her W first, and it is on a 8 second CD on all ranks. She was one of the first champions ever to be released way back in 2009, and her kit hasn't been significantly changed ever since (Fun fact she used to have a 5 second stun duration LOL.) She used to be probably the most popular midlaner in the old times, and as time went on, she gradually fell from that state to her current state, aka "Annie? who is that?". Also, the mage update left her in quite a weird spot with the tibbers changes making it deal less burst damage and more sustained damage after he has been summoned (but most notably, the summon AoE has become smaller maybe? It feels way more inconsistent when someone is on the edge of the summon AoE than before the 6.9 mage update patch.) At the end of the day, she is just not what she used to be. Like Morgana, who probably was great in the old times, but is in DESPERATE need of a rework today, due to her hugely gameplay design flawed ultimate (this point might be controversial, as it was just my opinion, but anyways we are not here to talk about {{champion:25}} ). As of today, Annie is only worth picking if you want to counter/do decent against a short ranged hypermobile champ (most notably Yasuo and champions similar to him), but other than that, it is not worth to bother picking her in midlane, there are way better options (Notably Lissandra is similar to Annie in the sense of how she also has short ranges paired with heavy CC, but Lissandra has a WAY more diverse set of tools: 1.6 sec CD and the slow makes her Q a perfect kiting tool, W is similar to how annie could reliably CC enemies with her own W, her E is a very strong sense of mobility especially if you max it second, and she can choose to have a free Zhonya's. Lissandra is also receiving a new passive and possibly other buffs as well in the near future hopefully.) I actually recently noticed how Annie's winrate is fiddling lower and lower, and when that happens to a champion like her, you know that there is a problem. Honestly she should get some changes right about now, I think a revamp to how her E spell works would be the best option. It is just unhealthy how much she relies on her 5 minute cooldown {{summoner:4}}. I hope I helped.
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Whitneyz Miltank

Level 65 (EUW)
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