Meddler (NA)
: Our plan's to rotate a lot of units at once (potentially most of the set) at some point. Total number of units probably will cap out somewhere in the 55-60 range, given beyond that seeing enough of the same unit to level them up starts getting too difficult.
Any thoughts about possible increase of the hand instead of limiting champs, at least up to 6?
: August is mostly a TFT balance team now so what u saw was for TFT Aatrox and he was probably just being sarcastic.. I don't think he wanted to buff Aatrox for tft, he's pretty decent
That is a bummer and a loss for SR for now.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 2
Any opinion about this one? One of the highest upvoted posts on the malph main reddit in some time. But because it is malph and he has nearly no main it gets no traction outside of it. but Malph deserves more than being forgotten again.
: > [{quoted}](name=Win Zhao,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=WpJn3mE8,comment-id=008c,timestamp=2019-07-18T05:38:01.755+0000) > > Praise Riot Lutzburg We did it! And he's getting buffed next week!
I will post and remind you over and over: Revert the Malph R 9.15 change, it was never a bug and is terrible now It is strange that Riot could give Singed a fix in 24 hours because he is a bit more popular than Malph. Highest upvoted post there in a long time.,
: > [{quoted}](name=Win Zhao,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=WpJn3mE8,comment-id=008c,timestamp=2019-07-18T05:38:01.755+0000) > > Praise Riot Lutzburg We did it! And he's getting buffed next week!
And here the link to my Reddit post (malphmains):
: > [{quoted}](name=Win Zhao,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=WpJn3mE8,comment-id=008c,timestamp=2019-07-18T05:38:01.755+0000) > > Praise Riot Lutzburg We did it! And he's getting buffed next week!
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Lutzburg,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=WpJn3mE8,comment-id=008c0000,timestamp=2019-07-25T19:17:02.091+0000) > > We did it! And he's getting buffed next week! Pls, for the love of god, revert the R 9.15 change. It wasn't a bug. Malph always ran up to his target if you aimed outside of the R range. It never worked like on 9.15 for a good reason: It is shitty for smart cast users because you don't know your range 100% and now you will just rush up like 50 range too short instead of having a tiny frame where he would move and you can cancel the R. I don't know who thought it was a bug but I can tell you he never played Malphite. I tried it out and the new R cast feels terrible. And I am not alone even when Reddit has nearly no Malph players: end especially this comment matters: > Yeah if I'm reading this right, is this essentially a tiny nerf that will remove the buffered flash-ult instant cast? You removed a whole mechanic from him with the "bugfix". And in the end to blow off some steam (dont take it too serious): The guy that made this change for 9.15 has no idea about Malphite. The guy that started this on reddit had never played Malph before. And if Riot just listens to random guys on reddit without thinking if the change makes sense or if the guy is even telling the truth then Riot can't be helped. If some random guy says he wants Ori ult to be global because it was so before would you do it? Sry that I am mad but it shows that Malph is just a side project that Riot doesn't really care about (same as not removing the triple Armor because people said so while a ton of Malph mains were ok with it and it being just the smarter move to get him into a good spot).
: This is not an unpopular opinion, it's just an inherently flawed one because it assumes that what he was doing is wrong. It's not. What most players agree on as "trolling" is almost always the equivalent of "not meta." Since the majority of the community, 'pro players' included, can't separate between what's trolling and what's an attempt to do something different than the meta, I don't think they should have any say in whether or not someone is banned for it.
> [{quoted}](name=Forge God Ornn,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=sP62E7iK,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-06-18T19:44:06.062+0000) > > This is not an unpopular opinion, it's just an inherently flawed one because it assumes that what he was doing is wrong. > > It's not. > > What most players agree on as "trolling" is almost always the equivalent of "not meta." > > Since the majority of the community, 'pro players' included, can't separate between what's trolling and what's an attempt to do something different than the meta, I don't think they should have any say in whether or not someone is banned for it. Riot stated in the past, with the smite support singed and the smite support nunu, that if you play off meta you can't force your team to play with you all the time. You should be communicating and asking if this is ok. If you go against your team now and then and still play it you will get away with it, but if you are an ass just ignoring your team and doing whatever you want, you will get banned. This is not about playing off meta, but how you treat other players. When 10 players Q up together in a Q you bring together expectations and most players would except to play a ranked games of lol with a normal meta (1/1/2 + jungler) also called the EU-meta. If now 1 person says to the other 9 (4 from his team) "fuck you all, I play whatever I want" and he does that every game, he will create tension. It is a team game and you can't always play what you want, especially when all others expect something different. This is not about performance but what you do before the game, what you do to your team over and over and how you treat them.
murchalvias (EUNE)
: Why aren't Rioters answering more on the boards?
I would say because the boards are pretty empty. The most guys come here when a link gets posted on reddit. Also many posts or even answers are so short that it is not even worth talking about. The boards are like a large dark space and sometimes someone says "hi" and then you hear another person also saying "hi" around 2 days later and then silence again. The other problems is the deepth of the topics. You instantly realize that for most topics people haven't even thought about what they say. And last but not least the splintering. You find multiple posts about the same topic when the topic is larger. There are like 10 posts about the NB3 incident and opnions and so on just on the first page. This just creates heavy bubbles for people here with their strong but often wrong opinions. **Overall boards are empty and useless most of the time with nearly nobody decent to talk to.** As an example take this post: The OP is not totally wrong with being a bit mad at all the bugs. but Riot also has to make money for their employees and for Tencent (or they take over). Fixing bugs is not always super easy and putting more people onto a single bug doesn't always help. Complains about balancing when he himself has likely 0 idea about the state of the game and the current balancing Calling it a dmg meta since S6-7 when we had a lot of good tanks in these years and people even calling it a tank meta at certain times. We also don't really have a dmg meta at all, we have a bruiser meta in competitive (top, mid, jungle). Has no idea about clash. Yes, creating a ton of games at the same time is a problem for the server. Spacing it out over 30 minutes works but requires time and people would need to be present and many need to wait longer. Talking about riot not listening to constructive feedback and using the boards for his example when the boards rearly hold any useful contructive stuff that is actually useable. **The guy is mostly just ranting and everybody in this post will likely go with him or leave it be. How would you deal with a smartass that has no idea but talks all big and gets other people in the same bubble into his boat? You don't. there is no way Riot could give him and the guys around him a good answer.** Another example: The guy talks as if he has any idea, but he doesn't. > A lot of the times you see that even challenger players have a hard time carrying their dead weight gold players on their team. True, some struggle with a 70-90% WR. A hard struggle. And yes, sometimes there are unwinnable games, but that doesn't mean ranked doesn't work. Yes, it makes it less accurate, but there is no better way and his way of trying to evaluate player performance is impossible to do well. I take the small and mostly unimportant inaccuracy over a system where you think you evaluate a players performance but you actually don't because it is not a 1v1 game and no lane is a 1v1 and especialyl not a 1v0 (which is the only way to isolate a single players performance). So to think you can create a better system than all the games before just by doing something so obviously bad is a huge fuck up. Happens. **What would Riot get from answering? Telling him that he has no idea and coming out with all their numbers that nearly nobody reads on the board and the OP will in the end just ignore it all?** Even my answer here will most likely not get much attention. Too long too read.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 14
As a note: The Tahm changes went through (looked at the numbers) but **were not listed in the patch notes at first**. So many people may have missed them when reading it on the first day.
Ałice (EUNE)
: All you care about is damage. Tanks aren't supposed to do so much damage. If a tank needs buff, it should be for either utility(CD/CC) and base stats. This is too messed up. **The reverted R, R's CC immunity removal, and Q's CD are all nerfs for his tank build(default). I hope you do realize that. ** The more tanky Zac is, the more picking blobs becomes meaningful, it is what makes him Zac, it is what makes him unique!
> All you care about is damage. Tanks aren't supposed to do so much damage Zac is one of the lowest dmg champs in the game. Even in the tank category and against supports he is at the bottom. He is not supposed to do much dmg, that is correct. But he is suppsoed to do some dmg and right now he does nearly no dmg.
: Zac changes coming to PBE for 9.11
Some things I don't like: * Q CD change makes it too important to max Q second. Instead a 14-10 sec CD makes more sense to keep the option open * Q2 is an AA but still does less dmg than his AA early on. I would change the Q dmg to 1.0 tAD + 0.3 AP + 1/1.4/1.8/2.2/2.6% max HP. This keeps the incentive to max Q second not only for the CD but also for the dmg scaling still but makes the Q feel less terrible as an AA ability in terms of early dmg. * W still feels horrible and I hoped that when you revert the R you would work a bit on the power balance between his Q, W and E. * Q: Slow reduced to 50% from 60% (slightly harder to apply the second hit in time, but just slightly because the slow is only 0.5 sec long anyways) * W: dmg up to 28-100 from 15-75 (more DPS and incentive to max W second if you want DPS over CC) * E: dmg down to 60-240 from 60-260 (less bursty early) Zac is already not strong. He is on the weaker side at least in soloQ. The R revet will give him a tick of help there, but likely not much, it is a change of style and where the R has power. Easier to access, but also harder to abuse well (EQR into a 100% kill or even 2 is gone). why does he not get actual help? I doubt that the R revert really does so much for him that he will come even close to being back.
: Hey gang! Thanks again for all the kind words, support and insightful conversations based around these changes. As we always try to mention, the PBE is often used for experimental stuff that we want the community's feedback on. You all made a few things VERY clear today and I'm super appreciative and receptive to your concerns. **As a result, I'm happy to share a new iteration of Malphite, which should be hitting PBE around Monday midday (PST)**. Sadly it can't be sooner, as we don't push things to PBE over the weekend. **Revisions:** * Q- AP scaling reverted to .6 from .4 * Q- fixed a typo regarding the cast time (was written as .5, is actually .4) * Q- adjusted the animation considerably to look/feel less clunky * W- 3x Armor multiplier when Granite Shield is active has been REINSTATED * W- the bonus damage on the initial Thunderclap hit has had its ratios reduced to compensate (.3 AP from .4) and (.15 Armor from .2) * VFX updates on Passive shield regeneration, Q missile/trench, W up-time/impact, E and R (**BASE SKIN ONLY FOR NOW**) **Context:** Q- Believe it or not, these changes were specifically designed not to nerf AP burst mage builds. We felt like the combination of extra Q range and bonus AP scaling on W would be perceived as a win here. Since that wasn't the case, I'm reverting the AP scaling on Q but nerfing the new W's ratio to compensate. And while I personally do think that Q spam is a little unhealthy, those who came before me were smart enough to gate it behind a high mana cost. I still think this is an elegant solution because the ability is most oppressive in the early game, and its gating mechanism slowly evaporates as Malphite levels up and purchases a mana item. Hopefully this will satiate all the cheese wheelers out there without frustrating your opponents too much. :) W- We underestimated how attached players would be to the 3x Armor multiplier. As a designer, it felt a little tacked on, and granted power in fairly obscure ways. However, there's no denying that preserving Malphite's niche as THE anti-AD tank is important to all of you. It's clearly a resonate fantasy and one I'm happy to bring back. **Clear-Ups** A few common questions/concerns have come up, so let's address them here! * Malphite's abilities won't gain range based on his size- sorry! I wanted to do this, but it was OP OP * The initial AA reset from Thunderclap triggers an Aftershock. This means it deals three instances of damage simultaneously; the AA, Thunderclap bonus damage, and Aftershock AoE damage. The result is a pretty meaty burst of damage! * The new speed differential between Malphite and his target are significantly buffed. Assuming you Q a target with 400 MS on LIVE, the delta between you would be ~225. In this iteration, that delta explodes to 350+ once you get some boots. The combination of a longer range Q, easier target accessibility, and improved burst damage from W should allow Malphite to participate in skirmishes and team fights without always relying on his R. * Scope for this project was super limited, and for good reason. I'm still new, I'm learning the tools, and bandwidth from art/tech was already accounted for in our project pipeline. Maybe Malphite will get a full VGU in the future, and maybe I'll be the one to do it, but that's currently not in our slate. ...Get it? Slate? Cuz he's a-- nevermind. **Next Steps:** * Next week I'd like to add a check to Q that uses your target's move speed if the amount you'd steal from them would make you faster than the base values. This preserves my goal of making Q consistently good, while retaining the playmaking potential of stealing from a particularly fast foe * We'll also be monitoring Malphite's overall damage output/power. I'm happy to reinstate the things you guys said were important to you, but that likely means that Malphite is now overtuned. Please keep in mind that we'll likely have to trim power from _somewhere_. Keep the discussion going! I'll be active here and on Twitter over the weekend. -Lutz
> W- We underestimated how attached players would be to the 3x Armor multiplier. As a designer, it felt a little tacked on, and granted power in fairly obscure ways. However, there's no denying that preserving Malphite's niche as THE anti-AD tank is important to all of you. It's clearly a resonate fantasy and one I'm happy to bring back. You may have underestimated this, but it is still not a good and healthy mechanic, as much as some people say they want it. As a Mlaphite player myself I can say that this is one of the largest problems he has: He is a niche counter pick to AD comps or AD top laners. As a champ he is actually bad if not played as a hard counter and all the Armor power is one reason for it. It is correct that he should be stronger against AD champs, but it is bad to do this pretty much just due to passive power (no skill involved) and to go to such an extrem. **Removing the 3xW Armor bonus during the shields uptime was one of the best changes you had becausse it finally opened up power that he needs against enemie that don't just rely on physical dmg.** Yes, Malph should be an Armor building rock, that is why he has Armor scaling and his W gives an Armor increase, but it should not be that he is just a hard counter to one type and does nothing against the rest except when building heavy AP which only viable if Armor building isn't good but even then niche (a decent enemy counters it by using potions against the poke and a bit of MR or HP to prevent the burst power). Without removing that 3x Armor bonus you won't really solve any problems. Your first version was way better (would have used 0.5 AP on Q and less on W) than the one with that bonus being back. It did solve one of the problems he has right now, being only a hard counter but not good if blind picked. The other problem he has is the low skill expression. While the W change does help a tiny bit there (time AA reset) it is not really hard to learn. The Cone on the other hand means positioning should be right so that one I really love (way better than just AOE dmg). But further changes would be needed here and it seems this work is not aimed towards changing that much yet.
: Upcoming Bounty Changes
I will do some math and ask something: For an AVG gold lead of 250g (the first part of the bounty gold) giving you a +50g bounty ou need 2 waves (~12.67 CS) lead PER FARMING PLAYER. So that means 4 times that lead. This is around 50 CS more than the AVG farming enemy or the 12.67 CS lead against all 4 roels (support excluded). A 50 CS lead is worth ~950-1000 gold and the bounty on 4 enemies is 50g per player or 200g total. That is not a lot at all. Now this number also doesn't get changed with the patch so this bounty will stay the same. The follow up bounty gets reduced where it is more like 1.2 waves or 7.5 CS times 4. This one does get changed to ~1.6 waves per player or 10 CS difference which I think is fine. But my question: Wouldn't it be easier to go down to 200g for each bounty check point? The 250g for the first looks a bit strange and it was never refered to in there even when it is the one that accures the most but at the same time has the least impact on its own because gaining back +200g for 1-4 kills when the enemy gained 950-1000 isn't really much or worth it. I like the changes for sure. They are nice but I would also reduce the 250g hurdle down to 200, streamlining the CS bounty. Also one thing a lot of people complaining about bounties ignore and should have been mentioned: Direct Kkll rewards are only ~50% of the rewards you gain for killing someone (would say ~70% early and 30% late) but the time the enemy is not on the map while you are is the important part. A single kill later on doesn't matter in gold, but it matters because it enables baron in a 5v4 scenario.
: This is still upsetting that 2 kills is still worth 450 gold. That is 75% of the gold for the 2 kills the other player got. that is a {{item:1006}} I just don't get why early bounties are so strong. I was really hoping you guys would realize that is just a little too forgiving. All that needed to happen was it being moved down to 400 gold IMO. Why is the 2 kill bounty just so effective? I'm genuinely curious why it is so strong.
What is important here is that a kill is never worth just 300g. If you killed the enemy twice you should have a decent CS and XP lead not because of the kills but because of the time you get in lane that they don't. This should be worth around 125g extra per kill and 295 XP (one AVG wave). So 2 kills are not just worth ~600g and ~1 lvl up but also ~250g, ~590 XP and some pressure/wave control (turret dmg or even more CS gained). Another thing you are missing are snowball effects. If you have 2 kills you should out CS your enemy even when he is back in the lane and likely take some turret platings that you would not get without the lead. If you have a lead you should snowball this lead. This can easily be another ~50-100g per minute of not more. If you can't make that happen with a 2 kill lead you are doing something wrong. All this adds up and in the end you should be more like 900-1k gold ahead. When the enemy now kills you he gains the 450g + ~125g (minion), which is 57.5-60% of your gold. And that for having 50% of your kills. He also got a kill against a target that was stronger, so he fought an uphill battle that he should not have won, so the reward for that battle should also be higher than it shold be. So this is all pretty much fair. Also, this math is very conservative. Often 2 kills should lead to a dragon or RH in the early/mid game which is worth a lot more than just 1 minion wave. RH pre 14 minutes is worth 420-1230g (2 platings + RH up to 3 platings + RH + FB turret). Dragon should be around 500-1000g easily with its stat power combined just speard up over the team.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 13
Any plans for top lane and jungle Naut? All the buffs more him more and more towards a support while leaving him out to dry in all other positions. There is no good reason to not make him a flex pick due to him actually having some decent weaknesses all the time. 1. Q skillshot and if you hit the wrong target you move closer when you don't actually wanted to (for the opposite see Lee and the full choice to Q2) 2. W DPS, just destroy, which is easy in a 1v1 early on and it does cost a lot of mana to cast it too often 3. E dmg can be reduced to 50% by avoiding the 2 extra waves which everyone should be able to do except when hit by the R (2 waves then, so 75% dmg) or by a late game passive 4. Similar to Vi's R, spreading out a bit. At the same time he would be mana intensive even if the E would be 10 mana cheaper and he would still need to chose how to spend his mana because of how limited it is even with a mana item.
Meddler (NA)
: Yeah, we're being careful with Rek'Sai, given a meaningful amount of the added strength she gained was Conqueror. Looking at small hits to ult CD and ult AD ratio as a result only (100-80 instead of 100-60, 1.75 instead of 2.0 respectively).
Any plans for conqueror, given that the new one just made Riven way stronger even with the nerfed version, but kept most other champs in line? There is one indicator that all abusers have, stacking speed of Conqueror. Most normal users do have a ~3-4 sec stacking time while some can do it in 2 sec. I would go with 3-8(maybe 10?) AF, 10% true dmg conversion/half as healing (5%), stacks over 2.5 seconds (1 stack every 0.5 sec). Could be extended to 3 sec stacking with either 6 stacks or a delayed stacking of 0.5 sec (first stack after 1 sec instead of 0.5). This would solve the problem of different stacking speeds. Another option I could see is to give abilities with 0 dmg that do CC also the ability to create a stack (e.g. J4 W, Darius E, Trynda W, Elise E) for nerfing it further (10% true dmg and 5% healing). Also something possible is to reduce the amount of stack generated per ability to 1 (even Rivens QQQ just 1 stack, Renektons EE just 1 stack). Renekton himself is still UP but due to conqueror alone he becomes fine, because of his stacking speed. Riven would be fine but because of her stacking speed on conqueror she is strong. Rek'Sai would mostly be fine but her stacking speed she becomes strong.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 1
> The XP changes seem to have put junglers on average at the intended levels by game time. While they can look large on paper, effect on total jungler XP hasn't been that dramatic given changes to XP scaling (not base), don't kick in immediately and junglers do get some other sources of XP. With todays pro games we have seen junglers being 1-3 lvls down to solo laners and even below the ADC only ahead of the support. Is that really intended? I mean, I can't see the solution for a role being to make them more into a second support again or an early game role only. Right now the junglers have a lvl 3-6 XP hole (was there before) and then lack a bit of XP afterwards I would say. The problem of the junglers were not really the XP but the lvl 2 gank and that they had a bit too much time to gank early on. I think you did go a bit too far and didn't actually solve the real problems of the jungle. For a lazy change it was ok, but it was still just a band-aid that didn't fix the jungle. 1. lvl 2 ganks: speed up minion spawn from 1:10 to 1:00 to remove leashes. At the same time give the jungler 2 stacks of smite from the start. This way you can still clear fine with smite at your first camp but are slower. This delays lvl 2 ganks enough to give laners time to also get to lvl 2 or ward. 2. Change jungle XP sclaling to a slightly curved one (more growth early, less later): camp lvl 2-9 gives 115/125/135/140/145/150/155/160 XP (still less than before 9.2). I also brought back a scaling with each lvl because it seems so strange to just add XP every 2 lvls. I added one more lvl of XP at the end to not give too much XP back too fast. 3. If an ally now kills a camp while you are near you now gain the XP from the jungle item still. This is just a small QoL change when you give over buffs to allies. You give them already the camp XP, you should not also lose the item XP 4. Rift Scutter reward: 120/130/140/150/160/170/180/190/200 XP (lvl 2-10; lvl 1 XP = lvl 2 XP) instead of 115-207 (lvl 1-9). Gold also down to 70-120 5. Rift Scuttler Spawning: now spawns stacked. If both are alive and A dies, it has a 120 sec respawn timer. If A or B dies while the other one still has a respawn timer, its timer will not start till the first one respawned. Removes the RNG from the respawn and makes them spawn a bit more often. Why? - junglers have a huge XP boost on their first camp but afterwards they are actually falling behind in XP pretty fast for a long time. This is why I made the XP not linear but a nice curve to increase XP at the second clear without increasing it even further on later clears. Wit the recent nerf they can still keep around till around lvl 3-4 but then fall behind decently fast (lvl 4 jungler vs lvl 6 solo laner). This gap needs to be reduced a bit. - Junglers after lvl 8+ fall off in XP so I added 2 more lvls of scaling for normal camps. They still don't each the old 172.5 XP at lvl 7 but at least 160 XP at lvl 9. It is still a nerf but gets them better into the mid/late game - Rift scuttler is mostly number clearing for clarity except for the respawn change. The respawn change also brings in more rift scuttlers so the reward was reduced a bit at the same time.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 30
With CS bounties getting changed like that, does kill bounties also get changed? I mean, they do the exact same thing. Someone could ge 0/10 and be terribly behind but then get a bounty on his head because he gets some kills since his last death. Now he is something like 3/10 and has a bounty on his head even when he is still behind. I mean, that logic makes sense (bounties based on actual game stats) but the problem with both is that this is nearly impossible and because bounties get cashed in on death you do draw the line there. So it made sense to do the same thing with CS bounties as you do with kill bounties.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 25
About Akali: glad to hear that the shroud gets nerfed. but what about the core problem of her item build? Gunblade. the item is a problem on every champ that relies on it. Without the item these champs suck and they are often assassins (Kata and Akali) that actually don't need spell vamp. GB provides the dmg they need, gives even more uncounterable burst and CC AND tops it off with the sustain. Everyone knows such a design is terrible in many ways for assassins. See Duskblade and how often the dmg was nerfed because it was too high and assassins should not need to rely on even more burst from items to do their job. GBs P&C burst + CC is just super strong and not really needed like that. Keep it similar to Revolver to proc on AA with a CD and without a slow. GBs omni vamp is nothing assassins should have access to in such an easy way. AD assassins have DD now, but this is still a 3rd-5th item mostly not a 1st buy. Assassins should not win sustain fights just like that from their first item. The stat in itself is not wrong, but it should be on a later item. You yourself said that her sustain is maybe a bit too high, and that is true due to Q being good for sustain but also once she gets GB she gets a ton of sustain anyways. If you want to give her sustain maybe tie it to her W or E? Not sure which way, but there are many options.
Meddler (NA)
: Still planning on looking at him in 9.3, nothing more concrete yet.
How large are they? We see him in competitive now and then and I think he does need a slight buff, but with the Urgot and Aatrox nerfs Renekton could already come in as a decent pick in the competitive scene.
Meddler (NA)
: We've got some changes in 9.2, in particular targeting the amount of time you have to react to longer range W casts which we believe is one of the things that's disproportionately powerful in high skill play and therefore making him a bit harder to balance.
Isn't it an overall buff to W and just a nerf to RW? W at max range: - Old W with 2200 speed (500 MS) at max range: 0.273 sec travel time and 0.5 sec delay for a total of 0.773 sec. With less MS like in most cases you need even longer. - New W with 1445 MS (normal T2 boots) at max range: 0.415 sec + 0.35 sec = 0.765 And the lower the range the larger the buff. The RW is nerfed because now you have more time to dodge Rakan himself better due to the W travel time increase. Butthe W alone is always buffed it seems. I still like the changes becaues the RW is the main problem and his laning phase with all his mobility, his own shield, his range and sustain his laning phase is save enough to take an armor nerf.
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: Crit Item Explorations Part 2
ER and IE partial reverts: Great, that is the right direction. But where all this lands in the end doesn't seem to be a great spot for ADCs that can't use ER. SR users will have nothing changed at 1 item, nerfed at 2+. This version of IE is the weakest we ever had except for a solo item, there it is a tiny bit stronger. - IE: 30% crit chance, 20% crit dmg - Zeal upgrades: 25% crit chance, 5% MS, +5% AS - ER: 20% crit chance - New item with also 20% crit chance for crit ADCs that don't want to take ER Why? 1. It makes Zeal items stay strong early on for the AS. Taking away 5% crit chance and replacing it with 2% MS is a bad idea I think. ADCs tend to get a lot of MS during the game due to items already and giving them even more doesn't help much. 2. IE should be a bit stronger as a power spike and ER likely a tick weaker. Right now your 3rd item power spike would go down by too much without ER, but for champs that can use ER it will stay strong. This creates a gap between champs that can use ER and others (Jinx, Twitch, Cait). Now there are also other ways to solve this (buffing skills of these ADCs to make ER also worth it for them) 3. There needs to be a crit item for ADCs to get 100% crit chance without having to build ER. Do you really want that every crit ADC does haev to build it? 4. A bit less crit dmg for a bit less scaling. Can be made up by giving crit ADCs some direct buffs, which I think is better than making them still rely too much on one item. Now about further problems that aren't solved: - item diversity for a single champ. A champ will have his best build and he will still not go away from that. I know most offensive champs do have that and the most diversity comes in when we have the chocie between defensive/utility items, but I am dissapointed that the time was not used to actually use such a concept to create more diversity for offensive items, too, by giving them similar offensive stats but differnt defensive/utility options. - PD problem: the item will not really work. It will be a Yasuo item mostly, just like the last version. ADCs will always go for the best offensive option, except when there is a need for QSS. You can dodge a lot of dmg but when there is a CC that you can not avoid like Malz's you have to get out. So PD will only protect you from the things you can and should try to avoid anyways and a good ADC will go with the offensive option as long as you give them one. the only case this won't happen is when the defensive option is OP as fuck or it is your 4th/5th item.
: Update on Yesterday's Capsule Pricing Error
> Since we don't keep easily reversible backups of an earlier version of your account's state, that is a huge outing. To not store backups for possible cases, not just like this but other possible problems that could happen, did take away the last bit of trust I had. This means you are lacking basic tools to manage accounts not just for single accounts but especially in a larger scale. That is just stupid. For a company this big and decently old now, this is just stupid. And on top of this you are saying "Yeah, we fucked up with the shop and then we fucked up again because we don't make backups and now we can't do anything so we won't." That is even better. Double fuck up from Riot, no possible back ups and then not even a plan. How clueless can you guys be? Are you ever having a plan for possible emergencies like you should have? This is not rocket science, this is pretty much the basics of data storage, the 1+1=2 in datahandling. You fucked up with the shop, ok, but for such a possibility you HAVE TO HAVE a plan that works ALL THE TIME. I am not stopping any payments to Riot in the future because you fucked up with the shop or because the people got some free stuff, but because of your lack of backup plans and actions you could take in such cases. And I know a decent amount will follow, maybe for the same reasons, maybe because their feel their spent money lost its value ingame because of the shop problem.
Meddler (NA)
: What we'll likely do in 9.2: Adaptive (Slot 1 and 2) :: 10 >>> 9 [AP: 10 >>> 9, AD: 6 >>> 5.4] Armor (Slot 2 and 3) :: 5 >>> 6 Magic Resist (Slot 2 and 3) :: 6 >>> 8 Changes look pretty small individually, given it's narrowing the gap between offensive and defensive runes from both sides we're expecting it to be larger than it looks though, especially since in a number of cases it should also result in people swapping from offense to defense. E.g. not just 2 x 6 AD and 1 x 5 Armor vrs the same, but more cases of 1 x 5.4 AD vrs 2 x 6 Armor.
This is great. Finally the stat runes get some needed love. The difference between offensive and defensive was just too large. What about an ignite 30 sec CD nerf and -5 dmg? Some exhaust buffs to make it a bit more viable again? or some changes to starting items and options (4 offensive options, 1 offensive/sustain option and 1 defensive option). Also what about Conqueror? Any plans on reworking it or changing it?
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Xyltin,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=oA7EoIrf,comment-id=00010004,timestamp=2018-12-22T13:40:47.867+0000) > > Riot needs to solve the double MPen problem. I don't know how all the pros and streamers called it OP for such a long time and it is clearly used all the time and still no nerf. > > - Oblivion orb down to 12 MPen from 15 > > - Morellonomicon up to 18 MPen from 15 for +100g > > - MPen from items is now capped at 30 (added to MPen description, stacks but limited to 30) > > The weaker Oblivion orb will make the stacking a lot worse and the cap means you will not get much out of upgrading it into Morellos because you are already at the cap. MPen down on Sorceror Shoes as well 18 => 15. 1100 gold to remove half of a bot laner's magic resist in the laning phase is shit to play around.
While sorc shoes are strong, they are only the second strongest behind Zerkers. On cost efficiency Zerkers are the clear number 1 and if Sorc gets nerfed they would likely also need to nerf Zerkers (I would move 5% of Zerkers over to ADCs directly).
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 11
What I wrote about the challenging smite "nerf" Isn't that even a buff in a lot of situations? You still have 3 ticks, just over 2 sec instead of 3 now, so more potential DPS. Right now you can get a total of 6 ticks into the 7 sec max duration (7 would likely be possible with a perfect timing). On the PBE you could only let it tick for 6 seconds but with a tick every 0.67 sec you get a tick at 0.67/1.33/2.0/2.67/3.33/4.0/4.67/5.33 sec (6.0 tick would again require perfect timing) which means a total of 8 ticks. Why would it tick faster? The total dmg is still 3 ticks worth (57-126, I assume the 125 is a typo) so to get that dmg number you would need 3 ticks but now you only have 2 sec for 3 ticks instead of 3 sec (1/2/3 sec is the live tick pattern). If the tick rate would not be increased the total dmg over one application (2 sec) would be 38-84 not 47-126. This leads the the following numbers: - **Live: 120-324 max dmg (20-54 per sec)** - **PBE: 152-336 max dmg (19-42 per 0.67 sec** Now I can't test that because none of the Smite changes are actually on the PBE, just in the S@20 notes. I call that mostly a buff to the DPS with no real nerf except for some few cases where the enemy can't AA you often enough. Considering blue smite also gets nerfed by 8 dmg (not much later, a decent amount early on) Challenging smite will get used even more often. Why does the worse smite, chilling smite, get nerfed and challenging smite, the OP one, buffed? It is the dmg reduction that people hate the most and for a good reason. 20% is pretty strong, it lasts full 4 seconds and on top of that it also gives the DPS and the vision. A 20% MS steal for 2 sec or a 20% dmg reduction against that target for 4 sec, what would the good player chose? The dmg reduction. 20-156 true dmg once or 57-126 up to X true dmg over 6 sec, what would a good player chose? Here it becomes a bit tricky with the scaling and if you can AA the enemy champ twice, but overall the challenging smite is better. So why chose the worse dmg and the worse utility? Chilling smite allows you to run away if you meat the enemy jungler or to get to the target you want to gank. Challenging smite allows you to fight the enemy jungler and win, it allows you to counter gank chilling smite users easily and it also allows you to deal enough dmg during a gank or prevents you better from losing to counterganks. So I have a smite that does help me gank a bit better vs a smite that allows me to get a meaningful advantage in all fights. What options do you actually have to fix the problem without buffing chilling smite? remove the vision part for sure and significantly nerf the dmg reduction (10-12%) split up the dmg reduction and the DOT. The dmg reduction works against the champ you smite for 2.5 sec (exhaust duration) when he deals dmg to you, same as before just with a 1.5 sec lower duration. The DOT now comes from a self buff that lasts for 4 sec (target switching allowed). Here I would also reduce the tick dmg to 16-50 but keep the 3 sec duration (48-150 over 3 sec; 96-300 over the full duration).
: Why does hexdrinker have stopwatch in it? Hexdrinker is usually a very quick and reactive purchase, you don't buy a component for it and sit on it. Losing the MR just nerfs the item.
Riot needs to solve the double MPen problem. I don't know how all the pros and streamers called it OP for such a long time and it is clearly used all the time and still no nerf. - Oblivion orb down to 12 MPen from 15 - Morellonomicon up to 18 MPen from 15 for +100g - MPen from items is now capped at 30 (added to MPen description, stacks but limited to 30) The weaker Oblivion orb will make the stacking a lot worse and the cap means you will not get much out of upgrading it into Morellos because you are already at the cap.
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: Crit Item Explorations
Some things I would like to mention: - IE with 40% crit chance: I think it would be better to go down to 30% and instead give Zeal items +5% crit chance (reduce cost of 10% crit to 350g). This loads a bit more power into the Zeal items away from IE and gives ADCs more power early on regardless. - IE with 50% crit chance: Nice idea, but the Zeal items definitely need to have their costs lowered by ~200g for the reduced crit chance. - RFC vs Shiv: balancing problem of RFC vs Shiv not solved still. - Zeal: The item should likely become a lot cheaper for a small loss of MS (3% MS but 200g cheaper or +5% crit chance) - Kircheis Shard: Needs a slight buff. I would reduce the cost by 50g. It is a slightly weak item that you actually never really want. If possible skip it right now. - Hextrinker seems to suck for everyone that is not super offensive. I like the item for ADCs a bit, but what about bruisers against magic dmg. Also in a world with Double MPen being OP forever and Riot never wanting to fix this, a Hextrinker without MR seems pretty weak. If you get Hextrinker it is not for the shield in the first place but the MR + AD. Overall this version is even more niche and I wouldn't even say that it is stronger. The Maw on the other hand looks a bit better. Fix Oblivion Orb (12 MPen down from 15) at least. - LW: This item line needs a full rework. The problem of LW and its upgrades is not the overall power, but that it is insanely good against squishies again but also good against tanks, but it is in no area exceptional. The old LW and LDR did a better job there, even when it went a bit too far. A mix of the new and old LDR would be better (strong against tanks but not making them useless, weaker against squishies but not totally useless against them). - PD: Very interesting, like it. The MS boost is likely a bit too long (based on how fast it falls off early on), making it a bit too easy to possibly get away from every danger. - SR: I like the energized version more because you are not getting pushed into proccing it 3 times in 30 sec to get the max use of it (Cait and her range). It synergizes too well with RFC most likely. I think it would also work better if you do make not all the dmg upfront (80 flat but no +0.3 AD scaling) and instead increase the dmg of the next 3 AA afterwards against the same target by 0.1 AD (still a bit more DPS heavy than all upfront burst). - ER: Still too strange. You will have a hard time proccing it against tanks and you can control the proc even less in some situations as an ADC while melees have less of a problem with it. The item also still seems to be too good on melee champs vs ranged champs because melees have more AA resets (Renekton and Jax). We had runes called spell weaving and Blade weaving, why not use this as a concept for the item instead? Also, why not reduce the CDR proc for melees down to 10%?
Meddler (NA)
: We're looking at it. Opinion is split internally on whether supporting stealth under towers is the way to go or not. We're doing some experimentation with a set of changes internally right now. Update to follow once those have helped resolve which direction we'll go.
How about this: Under the enemy turret the re-stealth time is doubled/tripled so that turrets can hit her once each time she attacks an enemy champ. It would allow her to reset the aggro multiple times if needed, but she will still take some turret shots.
wolf jade (EUNE)
: nice to see s- on a champ that wasent even in the match btw cant want to test it on pbe! looking good
Riot is doing this all the time. They implement chat massages that make no sense there just for fun when they teas such stuff.
: Hey meddler, any thoughts on the dorans shield buff? The item is already usually the best/least interactive start especially in top/mid after the timewarp change, feels like its just going to make lanes too safe imo.
The change is a nerf to offensive users and the gernal user overall. At 50% HP AVG you gain the same effect, but you are normally around 65% HP in lane so it should be worse than before.
Squad5 (NA)
: Ornn changes on PBE
What about his items? Do they also get changes? With getting more than 1k value out of them for free then means you can makeup for 5-8k gold differences around that time which is huge. Either reduce the power of the items a bit or make the bonus stats scale with Ornns lvl. I don't feel too good about a champ having a huge part of his power in giving his allies more stats, that is like picking a champ that stays in the base most of the game but his allies are all 20% stronger while he does (extreme case example).
: Visual Effects Update: Teemo
Very nice, but I think the shrooms explosion is a bit huge. It blocks so much vision mid combat like a nuke hitting. A nuke looks cool, but when the effects block your vision of other stuff happening around it it becomes a bit of a problem.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 31
> Changes to the jungle earlier in the year, including the removal of the overlevelled xp penalty, mean junglers are often getting quite a bit more XP than they were previously, which can include them being highest or highest equal level on their team a bit more than we believe is appropriate. What about the other problem? Since these changes junglers tend to be ~1.5 lvls behind solo laners around lvl 4-6 which at some points can be a 2 lvl difference due to the timing (lvl 7.1 vs lvl 5.6 so lvl 7 vs lvl 5). This happens because the camps from the first and second clear are worth a lot less XP but on the first clear the first camp bonus makes up for it, but there is nothing on the second clear. I agree that when teams and camps get to lvl 7+ junglers get more XP and then they catch up and can beat others in that race, but between lvl 3-5 they actually lack XP. So I would say that reducing the max XP per camp at lvl 7 is ok, but also increase the XP curve so that monsters at lvl 3-5 give more XP (lvl 1-2 lack gets made up by the one time bonus on your first camp).
Meddler (NA)
: Potentially. Main concern that might stop that at this point is that they overlap quite a bit with existing items (Spear of Shojin and Sterak's, Atma's and Titanic). Should be making a call on that soon though. Edit: Update on this after talking with the team is we're currently planning to ship Spear but not Atma's, belief being that Spear's users and context are sufficiently different from Sterak's, but Atma's has too much overlap.
Rly? I can see Atmas on champs like Darius or Mundo who fight longer, while Titanic is more for extra burst when you go in like Shen and co, where the AA reset it important but you also need the wave clear. Atmas is also more late game while Titanic is better early/mid.
: We're talking about this, no decision made yet though
At least show the 1 drake type that won't spawn during the game.
Meddler (NA)
: Possible we do one or both of the fighter items from midseason, still assessing. Might make some tweaks to a couple of other items too, likely nothing too large though.
there is this huge item with the Brutalizer icon on the PBE that adds a ton to all stats. Is that to give champs insane stats for testing internally or is it for something fun you are planning to do.
: Why is dark harvest changing from a late game rune to more of a execute rune.
I would still call it a scaling rune because the AD/AP and some dmg does scale with souls collected. You get insane ratios if you can trigger it often enough. Early on the dmg is decently low. What changes it that it goes from an overall dmg rune to an execute dmg rune that doesn't require you to farm as much, but interact more with champs, which most runes do require and which was the goal for keystones last year already.
: That number is likely close to final tuning, and some of the reasoning is that tanks benefit the most out of having an enforced defensive option. Armor/MR increases their EHP more so than other champs as they build more hp items throughout the game. That being said, we're going to discuss whether we should do a small pass on tank items and bump up their stats a bit, nothing for sure though
Tanks profit from early HP, but because they already build a lot of HP the total power increase is smaller for them. Going from 4k up by 50 is worth less than going from 2k up by 50. Stacking HP or Armor alone was never a too good choice and tanks do it because they have only 2 scaling stats (Armor/MR + HP). That is also why items like Knights Vow and Stoneplate are in the meta, they are not as much tied to these restrictions but scale better. Like that I see no reason to ever take HP. 40-240g at lvl 1-18 intead of just 100g. Runes are mostly made for the early game, except for CDR which is a terrible stat overall by design (a stat that scales with itself. The more you have the more you want, which is why the early hard cap is needed. every other game does that part better than league by using a system more like AS, where 100% means 100% faster cooling down or 50% effective CDR). In most games you likely be around 40-200g and most of them are likely decided before the 150g mark. Rune stats matter the most in the early game. I expect most people to take double Armor or double MR for the lane matchup over the HP. I could be wrong here, but I think 20-100 HP from the rune would be more balanced for the start. Edit: You also have a problem with Armor. Armor is a strong stat early on, but due to the good Armor/lvl scaling it becomes worse. the 5 Armor early on are close to the 6 MR but the 5 Armor late are worth less than the 6 MR. Armor should actually also scale with lvls (5-8) to make up for that difference while MR can stay nearly the same.
: Question, has riot ever considering making towers do % of health to champions to deal with tanks being too safe at diving? I feel like a 3000+ HP tank should be able to dive better than a 1700 hp ADC or something but should also be worried about taking too many tower shots.
What I can say about this is that tanks need that time to be able to dive in a 1v1, too. If a tank is ahead and wins hard, he should be able to dive. But because his power is durability and not DPS or burst he requires way more time for a successful dive. turrets also have already 30% ArPen so they can kill tanks. Turrets don't need to reduce armor and deal % HP dmg (at least not max HP. Current HP is a bit different). the problem of tanks tanking a turret only comes into place when a tank and a DD are there and the tank tanks and CCs the enemy while the DD kicks out his DPS. But that always requires both parts and you could also say "why does the guy kill me so fast, if he does 50% less dmg under my turret I would survive long enough and the tank would eat a ton more turret shots". So it is not fair to just say "tanks are tanking too many turret shots", it is just the natural thing and you can't just nerf tanks who are good in a team dive setting but worse in most 1v1 dives already. So it is a fair trade. Better teamplay under turrets, worse 1v1 under turrets (turrets ramp up dmg and have the % ArPen so you always want to make dives short).
: We'll be monitoring, but believe that Fortification (Top and Mid turrets taking reduced damage until 5:00) is still an effective deterrent for lane swaps.
I thought you would remove fortification or at least reduce the impact. With the new plating the rushed turret destruction in a 4v0 lane pretty much vanishes because the turret will have +100 Armor/MR after the first plate. While an extra guy helps doing it faster, the speed gained will not be as large and so the time needed on that turret will likely be not worth it at all. So I would have thought you could reduce the timer to 4 minutes and reduce only the champion dmg by 50%, not all dmg by 50%. That way it is still worth it pushing in minions early and you are also getting rewarded for hitting the turret. Fortification overkills lane swaps. Even with a weaker version we would not likely see them return in the 4v0 or 3v1 setting which are the 2 most terrible lane swaps. The 2v1 is still ok to handle and even there with a 50% dmg reduction on champ dmg for the first 2 minutes in lane the difference is noticable enough for the bot lane to still likely make the first turret. The problem I have with the current version is that pre 5 minutes pushing in minions doesn't really feel good because CSing under turret is decently easy and the risk you take by that hard push is pretty large. But you will deal nearly no dmg to the turret over that time, meaning you are better off winning trades but freezing the wave to zone the enemy from CS and build up a wave that crashes in at 5+ minutes. But if it crashes in 15 sec too early you lost a lot of potential turret dmg for no good reason except that the old lane swaps should be prevented. So TL;DR: Reduce the impact of Fortifcation pls. No removal. Mostly the dmg minions do to turrets should not be reduced or reduced as much to make pushing already rewarding from the start of the game and not just a risk to get ganked.
: Preseason Dev Update Number 3!
After some time of reading and thinking I got to some problems: - With normal minions being way stronger later in the game and baron buff losing some power, doesn't that nerf the baron buff by a decent amount? It is ok to not need it to finish a lot of games, but shouldn't baron still stay a strong but desirable objective when you can't break the enemy base? The problem I see here is that the risk for a lot of barons will not be worth the reward, especially compared to an elder drake that is decently easy to kill (requires time but does no dmg) - A similar thing with Inhibs. The super minions lose DPS (even with their AD scaling they pretty much never gain DPS nad are at best even later in the game) and their aura while other minions get stronger, so they will push way slower (more HP to go through. more armor on melees, too, while also having less DPS). I totally understand the removal of the aura, but shouldn't they at least stay even in DPS? - When we talked about Baron before and the elder dragon: Are there plans to make the elder a similar boss to baron? Right now his attack pattern lacks and he does pretty much no dmg at all with some LS. - Will the pushing advantage of minions per turret destroyed als go away? Only the lvl difference is mentioned. - With minions having more HP and dealing way more dmg, can you change the execute value of the relic line? It is decently hard to execute against an ally, but when you then also have to combat with minions that triple hit at one point with 300 HP on the enemy minion, it can become a bit stupid for melee supports later in the game - What happened to the new items (Atmas and Spear)? Are they still planned to be released this pre-season?
Meddler (NA)
: We're still working on nailing down details there. What should be in for testing today: Passive damage - 10% Missing HP (+27.5-110% AP based on target % missing health) instead of 15% + (3.75% per 100AP) Missing HP Q Mana - 67 down to 55, instead of just a flat 55
So from 30% missing HP at 400 AP down to 10% + ~60-90% AP (240-360) at 60-20% HP. 2k HP target at 60-20% HP: **240-480 -> 320-520** 3k HP target at 60-20% HP: **360-720 -> 360-600** 4k HP target at 60-20% HP: **480-960 -> 400-680** Is this intended to nerf AD Kai'Sa only? AP seems mostly the same (more dmg against squishies, less against tanks). Combined with the falt dmg nerfs to the passive this might work out a bit, but seems like a small nerf still for the AP build. Right now both builds are too strong and need nerfs.
Meddler (NA)
: Seemed to land pretty well. Made it a somewhat better choice for its core users at least without other buffing. Reducing the AP while buffing the DoT seems to have worked as hoped. Not sure yet however whether it's having a meaningfully larger impact as an HP stacking counter. That's comparatively subtle though, so possible we see something emerge over a bit more time.
You don't think Malz became too strong and other abusers of the item? I love the 1.5% without a CC required, but I think the 2.5% are too high and the item too strong just as an item. It is not an HP counter, but an item for dot mages even more. When I am at it: - What do you think about Oblivion orb? Most mages that don't use Liandrys are using the MPen build and some do combo it. - What about GLP and AAS against Ludens? Ludens was buffed without any reason and overpowered AAS after its nerf easily. AAS is now a niche item while Ludens is seen everywhere and pretty much the best starting item for mages.
Meddler (NA)
: These are all relative to other marksmen. Primary weaknesses intended: * Low range (has to take more risk to deal damage both in lane and afterwards) * Soft lane * Item reliant Secondary weaknesses: * Low utility/no CC * Low AOE damage against champions
for a soft lane you would need to nerf her Q wave clear a bit, like reducing the cap for the double dmg onto minions from 35% down to 20%. I like the idea to make her chose between the evolutions. Getting 2 out of 3 is still really strong late game. Q+E for AD and W+E for AP will be most likely chosen. There is nothing wrong with having all 3 at full items I think if you have the right build. - Q: 100 bAD all the time (not scaling down due to her AD/lvl) - W: 120 AP (rageblade + nashors gives her 105 AP already so you likely want a DRing) - E: 100% AS all the time (not scaling down with her AS/lvl). She gets 100% with Zerkers + SR + RFC and 110% with Zerkers + Nashors + Rabeblade
: There are many reasons Wukong needs a straight up rework, so ill put it in an organised list: Passive - Wukong's passive is incredibly boring and dull, it basically gives you MR and Armour depending on the amount of champions in Wukong's vicinity. It has no interactivity and it is bad, nobody even thinks about this passive when they are playing the game. At max level, the passive gives 40 MR and Armour when surrounded by 5 enemy champions. Sounds good right? NO. This passive gives absolutely no benefit to Wukong because of the way his kit is built. Role - What is Wukong? Is he a tank? An assassin? A bruiser? I have over 1 million Mastery points and have hit Master multiple times and I still have no idea. 99% of games building full AD is the only option, as building tank items means you have no damage, whereas champions like darius/renekton/irelia can build tank items and still be a massive damage threat. Also, even though Wukong has a garbage 'tank' passive, his natural bulk is incredibly low in comparison to other champions who fill his 'role'. This makes you a "one shot the ADC" champion which other champions who build semi-tank can do too. Laning Phase - Oh boy, this is the one that makes me SO salty. Despite popular belief at low elo, Wukongs laning phase is UTTER TRASH. Almost every top lane matchup is "try to farm and go neutral so you can do something after laning phase". Its boring, Wukongs kit doesn't have the skill factor that champions like Riven and Fiora have, which leaves you NO room to outplay your counters. Lets take Darius for example, a classic Wukong counter. To trade with Wukong you need to put yourself inside enemy minions with your E, and to avoid taking damage back you press W. But wait a minute, Darius just pressed E, what do you do now? NOTHING, there is nothing you can do, you are truly fucked because you dared to hit your opponent and you have nothing left in your kit. This isn't just a problem with the Darius matchup, almost all of Wukongs counters are like this (which is 90% of top laners). Damage Types/Resistances - Almost every champion in the top lane has some form of %HP DMG/TrueDMG/MixedDMG. Wukong only has physical damage. You could argue that his clone deals magic damage when it expires, but its so negligible its not even funny. Why is this a problem you ask? Because every motherfucker instant counters Wukong now by just building Tabis or some other basic armour item. This is such an annoyance I cant even begin to explain. Are you laning against Irelia, a classic Wukong counter AND outplaying her? Well guess what monkey, she just built Tabis and now she does more damage than you, has more cc than you, deals true damage, has more mobility than you, and more tankiness than you GL HF. "Well then why don't you build Tabis on Wukong?" you ask, let me tell you why. Wukong has shitty base damage, zero sustain, one damage type, and shitty base bulk. If he builds Tabis or another armour item, you are basically crippling yourself even harder because the enemy STILL has mixed damage types and higher base stats. Jungle - A lot of you are probably wondering "You could avoid all of these problems by jungling!". Wukong has trash jungle clear, he has hardly any AoE and as I stated earlier, his base damage and tankiness is BAD. The only way to have a remotely healthy jungle clear is to take clone second so you can clear the camps, but even then its so slow its unbearable. By the time you have cleared 3 camps, the enemy has either cleared his jungle and done 1-3 ganks, or they have cleared their jungle and invaded you and now you are dead (if you play lee sin you are insecure). Clone - This spell has so much potential, but it is so dated. Right now, your clones only usefulness is the THREAT of using it, i'm sure you all know the classic "S stop" where you press S and pretend you have cloned. The problem with this is anyone who knows Wukong can actually see the difference between an S stop and an actual clone, when you clone its a lot more choppy. The only way to fool anyone with it is by running into a bush and using S stop at the edge so they cant see you stop. However, the higher elo you go, the less this trick works. The clone itself is pretty useless above D5, the only useful aspect of this ability is the 1.5 second stealth so you can reset duskblade proc. In fact, i'm certain if you just removed the whole clone and made this ability a stealth ability it would be just as good. That sucks, because a clone sounds like it could be super fun to play around with. For example, what if you could trade places with a clone that you set down, or what if the clone used Wukong's E at the end of the duration instead of just uselessly spinning around and disappearing. Ultimate - Whilst Wukong's ultimate is pretty good, it does not match the rest of his kit. You give him 3 basic assassin abilities, then you give him a team fight ultimate? Also, your ultimate's base damage is 20 (lol), which means if you don't build AD, you will be like a mosquito buzzing around in a team fight. Also, the tick rate of this ability has screwed me over so many times it makes me want to cry. When you ult, enemies can literally DASH THROUGH YOUR ULTIMATE without being knocked up, the biggest offender being Fizz Q and Irelia dash. Solution The best solution to these problems would be a rework. I honestly would not mind a full scale rework, maybe moving Wukong into more of a top lane bruiser role that has a lot of interactivity with his clones. You could also remove his current ult and give him something like a powered up mode (yes, like SSJ from dragon ball).
> Also, your ultimate's base damage is 20 (lol), which means if you don't build AD, you will be like a mosquito buzzing around in a team fight. It is actually 110 DPS on the R at lvl 6 as base dmg. It scales with total AD, meaning you have to calculate the base AD into it for the actual base dmg. But you are right. The meh base dmg but great AD scaling (440% total AD for the full duration) makes building AD huge. Same with Q later on. For me Wukong is a bruiser. He always was. The current assassin style is not really something that fits his lore and actual identity. What can be changed fast to make him more like a bruiser: - **P: now scales with 0.1 bonus Armor/MR (not per target but a one time bonus)** - **Q: 10-130 + 0.1-0.3 tAD** from 10-130 + 0.0-0.4 tAD - **W: instead of AOE explosion dmg your next 3 AA will deal +30-40% base AD dmg as AOE dmg (small AOE)** - **E: **60-220 + 0.6 bAD** from 65-205 + 0.8 bAD - **R: 20-200 + 1.0 tAD** from 20-200 + 1.1 tAD You would see a nerf to his AD scaling but the early Q buff does make up for it early on (+0.1 tAD is worth a lot more than 0.2 bAD till you get ~50 bAD). But the higher E base dmg from maxing it first doe make up for the loss in scaling while the W will help a bruiser build as much as an assassin build. You can now focus your W dmg and it profits from the lower armor after the Q. The increased armor/MR also enhances semi defensive builds but the still good AD scaling means you still have to build AD to do some dmg.
: We nerfed him since he was 58% winrate up until around silver MMR. We typically focus explicitly on plat+, but there are certain bounds at which we take action for lower level play as well. Doesn't make it easy, or feel good, Internal metrics still have him around 54 in low MMR, and around 53 high MMR. I'll need to double check those metrics though, since the post below this from ShirukuSama has him sitting at 47% according to lolalytics which is a pretty big discrepancy between what you guys are seeing and what we were looking at. Makes for a painful perception mismatch for sure. For context usually the delta is closer to ~1-2% between external sites and our own dashboards
looked at lolalytics and foudn a ~51-52% WR, which is ok but still nothing good for such a low PR. He had a 47% WR on a single day, but also a 56% on another day. With only 2.5k games over a whole week in Dia+ the sample size is too small for stable numbers. Not saying Yorick is fine, but it is not that he is weak or terrible if you are a Yorick main. He could need some power back (E dmg?). But Yorick also likely needs more work. Something like a grounded effect in his W but champs deal 2 dmg per AA and skill and while inside it deal +1 dmg to it with AA and it takes dmg via skills but it gets 4/5/6/7/8 HP (3 HP lost per AA/skill from inside, 2 per AA/skill from outside). This would make the W better against mobility but would allow people to get out of it decenty fast if needed, but requires skills, which makes it harder to fight Yorick afterwards.
ShirukuSama (EUNE)
: He IS weak in high ELO. Currently, he has ≈47 % win rate in diamond and plat. The nerf was supposed to hit him in low ELO, but it had no effect at all. Yorick's win rate in bronze is still >54%. So they gutted Yorick where ppl actually know how to play.
I followed your link and see a 51.23% WR in Dia+ overall, being a bit up and down over the last days (47-56%) but that is due to his low PR and Dia+. He only has ~2.5k games which is a tiny sample size.
Meddler (NA)
: We've got some caution that his early game may still be too strong, so possible we pull some power from there. Do think the changes putting power in later were good, debated thing is whether we should be compensating by nerfing him early or not.
He was already the highest P/B top laner in competitive on 8.16 (after all the nerfs and before the buff) so I would assume you have to nerf him before worlds or you would get what you wanted to avoid, a 100% P/B, once he gets the latest buffs AND the tank items nerfs you mentioned get through.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 12
**About Warmogs**: Instead of 25% max HP reg (per 5 sec) make it ~40% missing HP. The item will still offer some good base HP reg (+200%, maybe buff that to +250%). That way tanks can get softened up a bit better. Another option is to just stop the passive regen at ~80% HP. A tank with 4k HP would then miss 800 HP still and with 60 HP reg (20 base) he would need more than 60 sec to regen the last 20%, I like the missing HP version better. **What about SR?** The item is still really strong early (which it should be) but also not bad at scaling (over 100% cost efficiency at least makes it ok as a scaling item and with the MS boost added it is still fine late game). Doesn't it make sense to go back with the proc to ~150% dmg but reduce its stats instead to make it an actual choice for early game power, leaving more room for the scaling options? Also Zeal could be 50g cheaper. **Liandry’s**: Pls keep the slow synergy, just make it less needed. Something like 1.5% per second and 2% with a slow. **Tank items:** - Warmogs: Said above - Stoneplate: Go down to 40/80% more HP down from 40/100%. The current active is just a bit too good and especially on Cho. - Abyssal Mask: The most bought top lane tank item in competitive next to warmogs for a good reason. Even Sion gets it. I think a +10% magic dmg increase is just too good. Either make it +12% for the buyer and +6% for the rest or make it a ~+12% SKILL BASE DMG increase (stronger in the early/mid game not as strong later on). Why a slight buff for the buyer? Because just nerfing the team dmg bonus dmg will likely make the item too bad and the focus of the item should still be gaining power for yourself that you then use to help the team, not buying the item because you don't care and mostly the team profits (sion with his mostly 1 decent magic dmg sources, the W, does even get it) I think these 3 are the main offenders when it comes to tanks.
Show more


Level 93 (EUW)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion