Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 13
I've noticed that Rakan's ability Battle Dance stacks when cast on the same target. This seems to be something new for him. Is this an intended feature that wasn't mentioned in any patch notes or is it a bug?
: > [{quoted}](name=Zoms,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rF6Tpqrc,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-02T16:40:49.230+0000) > > Seeing as I don't think any of the passives are insanely strong I don't think it is unreasonable to allow both of them to be active at the same time. Especially since both require you to finish your build until they truly kick in and even then all you get from it is some AP and health regen, hardly anything gamebreaking. I highly disagree. > The point with Soraka is that she will be getting an item that she can't fully utilize due to her being unable to gather blood charges as easily as other champions such as Sona, Nami, Karma and Lulu. This means that even if she benefits more from the regen passive she won't benefit as much from the blood charge system, thus somewhat balancing it out. This is blatantly untrue. > Even if I don't think the passive is strong that doesn't mean it's useless. And if it isn't useless then that means they will be worse of not having it which I think is unnecessary. So literally u just wnat to hav your cake and eat it too. ok. And it's not free excess power since you still have to pay for the item. it is free because by opting for Athene's you are explicitly trading Harmony for dissonance via completing the item in of itself. What you are suggesting is the equivalent of having Steraks passive and maw passive at the same time. > I wouldn't mind seeing them replacing it with something that was more beneficial and if that was strong enough to put a limit on it, I would accept it. > Locket isn't the only item, Zeke's will lose it's AP and the effect seems better on aggressive tanks than enchanters. That is because this is to compensate for the changes to Athene's as it now holds the job of providing AP to Supports and Zeke's no longer need hold that burden, of which it didn't fulfill all that well to begin with. That said, the change doesn't even make it outright unusable by them, it just makes it better for champions that wanna get on top of the enemy. > And even if it was that doesn't make my point irrelevant. it literlaly does. Your poitn is based more on your feelings than logic. Your point is "i don't like it" as opposed to "it makes sense". > There is still a lack of items that are made for enchanters {{item:3174}} {{item:3107}} {{item:3504}} {{item:3222}} {{item:3190}} {{item:2301}} {{item:3092}} and if you really want to {{item:3116}} That is more options than assassins get. You are blatantly incorrect here. >and their full builds usually consists of the same items every time, you just described every class of champs in the game. >simply due to the fact that no other items are available. other items are available. These are just the more sensible options for them to opt in to. ....unless you wanna claim assassins only have 2 item options. >Even if Redemption and Locket are first buy, by the time your build is done you've gotten nearly all of the options. ??? supports, already only have 4 item slots (3 if you dotn combine their support item with SS) There is far more items available to them than 3, Enchanter, Catcher or Warden. >That is why I dislike putting this kind of (in my opinion, unnecessary) limiter on the few items that actually exists, especially when one of them has an important active that you will almost be forced to buy against some teams. So basically, you don't want to have to actually make any choices or decisions in the matter? If the passive that you yourself claim is mostly superfluous, is so important that it makes buying Mikael's out of the question to you if you have Athene's then I really don't know what to tell you. it is quite frankly an incredibly petty complaint that, again, is purely based on emotion than logic. You give up **_a passive you yourself claim doesn't matter_** for _**20 AP, 20% Heal/Shield Power, , and a 60% Stronger Redemption.**_ And somehow this is a deal breaker for you. Somehow this makes it completely unreasonable. {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}} i mean, logic be damned, {{sticker:zombie-brand-clap}}
It's not free since you've paid for the both passives and you only get one, how is that free? Buying both doesn't convert one into free stats, it removes it. Yes, Sterak and Maw share this problem but unlike these item there are several others that can replace them. Same goes for Rapid Firecannon and Statikk Shiv. I would say that mages, tanks and marksmen has a lot more options for them. Assassins still has few items available and I think that is also a problem. Assassins having a problem does not mean that enchanters doesn't have a problem. I wouldn't count Rylai's as an item that's very good for any of the enchanters, most of them already has some kind of CC tied to their damage abilities or enough CC in their kit to make the extra slow irrelevant. Meaning that with sightstone and boots there is room for 4 more items (unless you want an open spot for control wards, which is something a lot of people don't do), and there are only 6 available. I wouldn't say that that is a lot of options, even if you count the Rylai's you forcefully threw in. On the contrary, I want to be able to make as many choices as possible, how can you not get that? That is why I want as many items available as possible. That is why I want them to work well together without restraints. Putting a limiter on them makes the builds less variable since some items are worse if both are together, If there were twice as many items that were viable I wouldn't care at all. It is not based on emotion, it is based on the lack of items available and my opinion of whether or not the combined passives are too strong. Clearly we disagree on even the basics of this subject so I doubt the continuation of this discussion will be worthwhile, if it even is a discussion at this point. Have a good day.
: > [{quoted}](name=Zoms,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rF6Tpqrc,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2017-06-02T13:36:46.036+0000) > > It's not like the amount of AP is insane, if anything it's what supports needed to give them a more viable way of getting AP without buying mage items. yes and that is fine, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want the AP, you gotta give up the regen. You can't have all that aggression AND all that safety at the same time. you gotta make the choice between the two. >Soraka would have some trouble getting blood charges No she wouldn't . Not only does she collect them easily with Qs but she also would be getting more of them easier thanks to the conversion being made into 25% and with all the AP she will be getting making her get even more stacks at a higher rate. But lets pretend she did for the sake of the argument, so what? You are missing the point here. The thing being scrutinized is the fact that she will have a butt load of free regen on top of in combat regen by dipping into both items. >and the rest of the supports don't have as much need of health regen so I think it would be acceptable. wait so lemme get this straight. Your reasoning for why the passive SHOULDN'T be disabled by Dissonance is because Supports supposedly don't need the regen all that much? Are you reading yourself. Logically, if they don't need it that much, then not only is giving it to them the last logical thing you wanna do, because you are essentially giving them free excess power for no reason, but it makes yoru entire position fall apart, as it makes your insistence that they get to keep it utterly contradictory. If they don't need it tat much,. then it stands to reason that you have no reason to complain that it gets disabled. > I just dislike that they are trying to put a limit on the enchanter items that there already aren't that many of, especially since they are shifting some support items more towards the tank supports at the same time. it's not Like {{item:3190}} will be outright bad on enchanters. It is still a shield and therefore still interacts with Heal/Shield power. it just wont be as good on them as it is on Tanky supports. the limit exists for 2 reasons. - 1 it would be broken. - 2. it would make it the most optimal build that you have to use very game on every enchanter. The restriction makes it to where perhaps some other option would be equally or more appealing given the scenario. And again, it is hardly that bad a limit, as you claimed yourself how Harmony wasn't that big a deal to itemize towards.
Seeing as I don't think any of the passives are insanely strong I don't think it is unreasonable to allow both of them to be active at the same time. Especially since both require you to finish your build until they truly kick in and even then all you get from it is some AP and health regen, hardly anything gamebreaking. The point with Soraka is that she will be getting an item that she can't fully utilize due to her being unable to gather blood charges as easily as other champions such as Sona, Nami, Karma and Lulu. This means that even if she benefits more from the regen passive she won't benefit as much from the blood charge system, thus somewhat balancing it out. Even if I don't think the passive is strong that doesn't mean it's useless. And if it isn't useless then that means they will be worse of not having it which I think is unnecessary. And it's not free excess power since you still have to pay for the item. I wouldn't mind seeing them replacing it with something that was more beneficial and if that was strong enough to put a limit on it, I would accept it. Locket isn't the only item, Zeke's will lose it's AP and the effect seems better on aggressive tanks than enchanters. And even if it was that doesn't make my point irrelevant. There is still a lack of items that are made for enchanters and their full builds usually consists of the same items every time, simply due to the fact that no other items are available. Even if Redemption and Locket are first buy, by the time your build is done you've gotten nearly all of the options. That is why I dislike putting this kind of (in my opinion, unnecessary) limiter on the few items that actually exists, especially when one of them has an important active that you will almost be forced to buy against some teams.
: > [{quoted}](name=Zoms,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rF6Tpqrc,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-06-01T05:36:20.254+0000) > > Yes, currently they share the same passive, but were not talking about the current Athene's. It would still require a support to reach full build to get all of those items so I don't think it would be broken. A support having All that AP AND regen would be broken. i shutter to think of Soraka with that shit. It's not like the items are mutually exclusive either. It just disables harmony passive if you have dissonance passive. > And even if Harmony isn't that good we don't know yet if that's the passive that will be disabled, seeing the wording on Athene's makes it seem like Dissonance will be disabled since they've yet to add a text to Mikael's. yes we do. I tested it myself.
It's not like the amount of AP is insane, if anything it's what supports needed to give them a more viable way of getting AP without buying mage items. Soraka would have some trouble getting blood charges and the rest of the supports don't have as much need of health regen so I think it would be acceptable. I just dislike that they are trying to put a limit on the enchanter items that there already aren't that many of, especially since they are shifting some support items more towards the tank supports at the same time.
: > [{quoted}](name=Zoms,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rF6Tpqrc,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-06-01T00:23:50.271+0000) > > I was really excited for this change until I saw "Cannot coexist with Harmony". It means that even if this turns out to be a great item on some supports you will still be forced to ignore it if your team really needs the cleanse from Mikael's Crucible. I mean, the Harmony isn't all that great a passive as is so its not like much will be missed. >I suppose it is possible to get both but that probably isn't worth it if you don't get any benefit from the passive. I honestly don't know why they added that, I doubt it would have been too strong. The reason it because it would make it too optimal to get it with all the healing/Shielding power items. Currently grail and Miklaels share the same unique passive as is, making getting both feel very bad/redundant. > The new Redemption heal seems kinda busted lategame if you get all of the "increase heal and shield" effects. But seeing as it is weaker early game and requires a support to reach lategame it might still be fine. The current problem with Redemption is that it is always the right option to get and is always the best thing to get first. if you have to invest a whole bunch to get the most out of the item, it should be fine.
Yes, currently they share the same passive, but were not talking about the current Athene's. It would still require a support to reach full build to get all of those items so I don't think it would be broken. And even if Harmony isn't that good we don't know yet if that's the passive that will be disabled, seeing the wording on Athene's makes it seem like Dissonance will be disabled since they've yet to add a text to Mikael's. I completely agree on the Redemption part.
KoKoboto (NA)
: New Unholy Grail passive on PBE
I was really excited for this change until I saw "Cannot coexist with Harmony". It means that even if this turns out to be a great item on some supports you will still be forced to ignore it if your team really needs the cleanse from Mikael's Crucible. I suppose it is possible to get both but that probably isn't worth it if you don't get any benefit from the passive. I honestly don't know why they added that, I doubt it would have been too strong. The new Redemption heal seems kinda busted lategame if you get all of the "increase heal and shield" effects. But seeing as it is weaker early game and requires a support to reach lategame it might still be fine.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 2
Love the increased range on Rakan Q and I don't mind trading some power for a more reliable ability. It will probably make it feel less lackluster early game when the heal is pretty small. Any thoughts about letting him somehow refresh his passive shield if it has taken damage? It kinda sucks when you take damage and the shield survives with 5-10 health and when it finally pops you have to wait the full duration for it to refresh. A 50-100 range increase on his E would really help him to reach his fleeing adc and also lower some of the frustration on your teammates, but I guess you have heard this several times before. Any news about a new AP item with 20% CDR like Morellonomicon? I believe you said that space needed to be filled shortly after the Athene's changes.
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Zoms (EUW)
: Bard Q range bug! [GAMEPLAY]
I definitely get what you're saying but are you sure it's not a bug? I haven't seen anything about it being supposed to be like that.
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Zoms

Level 126 (EUW)
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