: I wish GC just make an announcement saying exactly what their vision and plan is for LOL in the future, either is admitting they mess up and wasn't their intention to make this snowball 1 hit KO mess we are having or saying that's the future they want for LOL. Because if that's their vision, I'm afraid this game isn't for me anymore.
> Because if that's their vision, I'm afraid this game isn't for me anymore. That's the reason why riot doesnt communicate such things with us. They know exactly that a lot of people would just straight up quit the game if they made their vision public, so they try to keep the veteran playerbase from leaving as long as possible by not making any real statement. At this point many veteran players only continue to play because they still have hope that things will get better anytime soon.
: Riot: "Oh right, champion classes! Let's see..."
> Assassin's - don't make me laugh. This game doesn't have any assassin's. Sure this game has assassins in it. {{champion:29}} {{champion:67}} Great post, i laughed while being sad, thank you sir.
I Q u AFK (EUW)
: Janna Nerfs
yes janna is the most nerfed champion in the game and still has never been weak. meta, items, nothing matters for janna. when janna is """weak""" she only sits at 52% winrate and 10% playrate. has been broken since i play the game while requiring ~0 skill in her entire kit to function well. im so happy she finally gets some attention (well with 56% winrate at pickban status there wasnt much arguing against it anymore...) this champ really needs a weakness. offering the same amount of peel for herself as she offers for others does not only make her adc invulnerable but herself too. thats the part they should change tbh (compare to soraka). > the population of Janna mains is so small, do not make it smaller lel edit: btw i like those changes. this way janna has to make _choices_ unlike before.
: until you realize that mages have AoE spells, utility like stuns / knockbacks, and zone control, while adc abilities are usually steroids / mobility or tank shredding. typically its a dps loss to even use an adc's abilities endgame unless its for survival or to increase your AA speed or dmg.
> AoE spells, utility like stuns / knockbacks, and zone control lets see.. {{champion:18}} has everything {{champion:429}} has everything with hurricane {{champion:29}} has no hard cc but maybe the best zone control u can wish for aswell as the best aoe in the game {{champion:498}} has everything if you want to count a snare {{champion:202}} has everything if you want to count a snare {{champion:22}} has everything {{champion:110}} has everything if you want to count a snare {{champion:51}} has everything if you want to count a snare {{champion:42}} has everything i honestly dont know what you are talking about.
Slythion (NA)
: Earlier Seasons Jayce vs. Current Jayce
I actually like that he isnt forced to build tear anymore. It felt completely horrible playing a lane bully that generally falls off and has to snowball while having to rush an item that offers nothing but scaling (what i felt back then was the real problem with his identity). i dont mean that he was weak, just that it felt bad. his power curve and powerspikes are far more intuitive than before imo. not talking about him being strong/weak or whatever, only about the identity and playstyle. if he needs nerfs, i think dmg number nerfs should be the way to go.
Wilbor (EUW)
: Do you think Janna needs to get nerfed?
the reason that nerfs dont matter on janna is that her kit is the definition of peel. she could deal 0 dmg and you could remove her ap ratios altogether and nothing would change. the problem with janna imo is that she offers the same peel for herself as she does for her carry. soraka offers protection for her carry aswell but when you engage on her she is dead. when you try to engage on janna... well... you could engage on her carry and nothing would change. you still get q'ed, ulted and have to deal with her shield and slow. and it is hard enough to engage on janna anyways because she can stand soo far back. either give her the soraka treatment and dont allow her to shield or heal herself or lower her reliability.
: Opps, matchmaking goofed.
better dont use op.gg elo values for discussion. they arent even close in so many situations. if i check the "elo" values of their team on op.gg now manually (while no one played more than 1 game after they played against you and therefore shouldnt have lost any elo or even gained some) their average elo is ~1520 even tho they won the game against your team and shouldve got some elo. and your team had a duo while their team was all solo. so even op.gg says that the match was "fair" regarding elo now. the two plat players are actually not a matchmaking issue. if you look those 2 "plats" up you will see they get matched with low gold and high silver pretty much every game while playing solo. this means their elo really is that low and they belong in that game. the problem is that its so hard to drop out of p5 its stupid. the problem here is not the matchmaking but the rank system. you play on the same level as those 2 do, but they got lucky earlier in the season and reached plat 5 and now you are 6 (!!!!) divisions below them while having the same elo.
: What is the current penalty for afk in ranked?
you wont get any penalty for "afking" once. from what ive heard it will take 3+ games at least to get any punishment and you most likely would be hit with queue penalties first. this means you have to wait 20 minutes (not sure about the exact amount) before you can queue up for "x" games. not sure what x is exactly, should start somewhere around 5 games i guess.
Rexxiee (NA)
: What is riot waiting for to nerf zac?
> ganking from fog of war, missing his E then just pressing Q on you to get a free kill is not healthy either. imo this is the main reason he feels so frustrating to play against. when old zac missed his e, there wasnt really anything he could do. new zac has too many tools to make a gank work. this combined with him being useful even when behind leads to him being hard to shut down, but also hard to ignore in fights. i dont like the idea of the knockup duration for charged e being reduced because thats the one thing in his kit that should feel rewarding to hit after charging. they should target his q and make it less reliable. for example they could allow the knockback on champions only if the target you hit with your q first was a champion. this way he actually has to hit his q in a gank and cant just q a minion and autoattack the laner to pull him back. and i feel like the q has too much range, could be another thing to work on. but if you ask me, the rework was completely garbage to begin with and they should just revert it. easiest and best solution.
: Why does my MMR keep going down, and how can I get it back up???
Just ignore the MMR values op.gg gives you completely. they are just wrong. my "mmr" got reduced by 3 divisions once when i lost a game. The best way to check your mmr is to check the LP gains and losses in your ranked games. more lp for a win -> higher elo than rank and vice versa. in general, your mmr only rises if you consistently win more games than you loose.
: How do you think the ADC players felt when the assassins were deleting their champions with contemptuous ease, before the recent changes? How do you think the ADC players felt when everyone always responded with "you built no defense items, you shouldn't expect survival"? How do you think the ADC players felt when the assassins kept deleting their champions, with next to no risk of reprisal? At least now, you know how the ADC players felt in the first point, and I shall help you in the second point: did you build ANY defensive items on your assassin champion, or did you double-down on your damage, and build only damage items?
uhm. what? those two situations arent even remotely comparable. if you are an adc and cant kill the enemies assassin in a 1v1... well... you stand back? you kill their tanks? their frontline? you still are useful and able to do what you are supposed to do by good positioning. if you are an assassin and cant kill a fkn adc in a 1v1 when you are even in gold and ahead in lvls you might aswell disconnect because going for the frontline is the most useless thing you can do as assassin. for your second point: its just completely retarded to assume the assassin should be the one in need of defensive stats when facing an adc in a 1v1.
: yes he does
isolated dmg: 255+180% bonus ad. so he had 413 bonus ad and you had less than 45 armor at the point where he had 8 items. ok.
: It searches for key phrases, repetitions, damage dealt, time spent in base, and how often it occurs. How ever, this will not be triggered UNLESS AT LEAST ONE PERSON REPORTS THE PLAYER. Report number does not actually matter, 1 report just starts a line of code that begins IFS, repeats in one game do nothing. *Edit Also it's unrealistic to ask someone at riot to do that... There's millions of players. Imagine just watching 100 vids. Even if their 2 mins each, that's 3 hours of watching virtually nothing.
interesting insight on the algorithm, thank you. do you have the source of those informations? i only knew "key phrases", "time spent in base" and that the amount of reports doesnt matter. did riot talk about these things? because i feel like they actually shouldnt talk about the exact way the algorithm works to keep players from abusing it. as for the edit: no its absolutely not imo. riot is not a small company with no ressources to spend. all you need is a good way to filter the relevant inting reports from the unnecessary ones. they could tie this to "did this person get reported from more than 2 non-premade people in at least 2 games for inting?" and the amount of reports would be fairly low. and yeah, there are millions of players, but how many of them are inting? 10000? as i said before, i think the vast majority of inting cases are repeat offenders due to them not being banned and not having to fear the consequences. if riot would start to ban inters, the amount would massively decrease in no time as soon as people realize that within 2-3 games of doing so it leads to a ban plus the repeated inting would be gone. thats really not a lot of time to invest for that high of a benefit in long term. and its riots own fault that they need to invest more time at the start because they created the inting-paradise themselves.
: yasuo is a strong champion , but most of players play cocky with him
imo the best yasuo players most of the time are actually the ones that dont spam him but use him as pocket pick. they are more likely to play a "controlled aggression" (dont know a better word for this?) style where he absolutely shines instead of going "HASAGI!! ILL CARRY YOU SHITTY TEAMMATES!!" same goes for a lot of other champs aswell (lee, riven and vayne coming to my mind)
: Best Game Ever
the problem is if you dont lose any lp if you have an afk, it only would be fair if you dont get any lp if the enemy has an afk aswell. and it would be abusable as hell. to solve the problem there should be one question answered: "why do the people keep afking and trolling?" most likely because there are no real consequences in doing it. there are 3 highly common behaviours that are punishable: inting, afking and flaming. flamers get banned fairly often i feel from report feedbacks etc. afkers seem to get banned WAY too late. you need to afk so often its ridiculous. but they eventually get banned at least because there is a detection system for it. trolls are the biggest problem. never expect someone who ints to get banned ever. even if they talk in all chat about "come to me for free kills" and do it for 20 games in a row. this is just riot not wanting to use ressources to review reports. i feel like the whole report system is "an algorithm checks if they said something bad in ingame chat or if they went afk 15 times in a row." everyone could determine within 2 minutes if someone that gets reported several times for inting is indeed inting (few minutes of replay from a single game often are enough). had someone on my team some days ago who from minute 3 on ran into the enemies while even talking about it in chat. now i take a look at his op.gg profile. oh... he had a game some hours later where he went 0-12 and had THREE TIMES mobi boots as only items after 20 minutes into the game. yet he is still playing. EVERYONE could EASILY tell within TWO MINUTES of game replays that this guy inted at least two games. but no one does because i highly doubt that there are any persons at riot who actually do this. tldr: the problem is not that people exist who do this. the problem is that theres no real reviewing of reports to get these guys banned so they can do it for several games.
: Riot WTF is up with your matching system?
from all those games there was one game where you were significantly ahead of your teammates. and with stats like 1-11-7, 0-5-0, 0-9-5, 1-10-3 you wasnt playing well most of the time aswell. you are right, this isnt bad luck but you needing to improve. if you are open for hints where to focus on: 1) your farm needs to be improved, especially when you play something like teemo. teemo is a lane bully and if you dont farm well you cant bully the lane because you lack items to do so 2) you die a lot in your losses compared to your kill participation which most likely tells me that you overextend or get catched off guard 3) theres a reason pretty much everyone takes flash. youre open not to, but 2) may be a hint to why flash might work for you. it gives so much kill pressure, safety and reliability. and on morg its neccessary for the ultimate in teamfights. 4) you are basically never carrying, even while winning, due to lack of gold and levels when you learn how to 1) and 2) you will start to carry automatically because then you'll have the gold and xp to.
: I feel like we're beginning to have too much mobility in the game.
i'm fine with champions having a lot of mobility, but a lot of those champs dont pay enough for it. if a champion is hard to catch, i expect it to be vulnerable as soon as i catch it. but a lot of the mobile champs got some stupid shield, heal or otherwise "cant touch me" mechanic which is annoying. {{champion:92}} shield with low cd.{{champion:64}} shield and the ultimate as "fk your engage". {{champion:103}} heal and her abilities are pretty much guaranteed hits on close range. {{champion:157}} shield. {{champion:245}} shield + heal - ekko might be the worst offender here. There are champions that are fine in this regard. they are hard to catch but easy to kill as soon as you reach them. imo {{champion:67}} s mobility is actually healthy because i really feel that she pays something for it (short range, super squishy). lucians and fizz' mobility kinda fits this aswell in theory, but both champs are build in a way that does cover their supposed weaknesses too well (bc, botrk on lucian, tank/bruiser on fizz) and theyre still hard to kill when you catch them. another type of healthy mobility is the type where you pay something for using it in a bad way. For example resets bound to you doing something good with your mobility. {{champion:18}} {{champion:121}} or one way tickets {{champion:84}} {{champion:154}} . and then theres the kind of mobility that has build in punishing mechanics if you use it badly in theory but in reality the champs are not punished enough because its extremely easy for them to still keep the control over a situation. {{champion:55}} {{champion:38}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:238}} . the problem with these champs is that its not up to the opponent to punish their mistakes because they can use their mobility wrong and still get out alive due to their mobility being so extremely reliable. if i had to decide, this kind would be the one to get reworked. if a champion is not punished for using his mobility in a bad way, theres something wrong. ps: i am NOT talking about op or up or general strength of anyone! all i'm talking about is champions kits. its not some kind of coincidence that a lot of the champions i wrote about are in the list of "hard to balance" champs. tldr: the problematic kind of mobility is the one thats too reliable and where it doesnt matter if you use it in a good or bad way because you arent punished for mistakes. more akali and khazix, less leblanc and ekko!
: screw the whole ranking MMR/Rank system.
you went 30-28 in your last 60 games (2 remakes) and 37-41 in your last 80 games. you got matched with and against mid-low gold on average before and you still are. seems like your elo is exactly where it belongs and you maintain ~50% winrate. so the elo system seems to work perfectly in your case and i cant see how you think your losses are taking more elo from you than your wins give you. if you want to say that you lose a lot of lp while gaining only a few, yes thats the rank system. i agree its bad and think they should get rid of this "cant drop from division 5 without playing an entire tier of elo below current rank" because then you would be mid-low gold (at the rank belonging to your elo) and this thread wouldnt be neccessary.
: They want them to not function under any circumstance. Take any assassin. If they build damage and hit everything perfectly they need to be nerfed. So riot nerfs them to the point where they can't do that so what happens people go bruiser or just stop playing that specific assassin and swap to one that still works. Wait they are dropping damage items to go bruiser because those items actually let them live and deal some damage. Well make that unplayable and make their damage build good again after a couple of patches. Few days later repeat the process. The anti assassin argument summarizes to we hate it when assassins build items, play their champion correctly and kill us but syndra missing every spell and pressing R is fair because you got in 700 range of her.
pretty much this. and this is neccessary because they dont know how to balance assassins kits. i honestly dont know why they reworked them into dps champions.. fizz, khazix, rengar, leblanc.. basically all assasins are dps instead of burst (compared to pre rework) now. i feel if they wanted to hit their reliability they shouldve looked at assasins like akali or old kha and follow the style of "poor engage -> dead assasin" instead of "if you cant stay in a fight for x seconds as assassin you are useless" more khazix evolved e or akali ultimate stuff and less zed and leblanc "i dont care if i played my engage right, i'll be safe anyways" mechanics shouldve been the way to go. what they did instead is nothing but a joke: -rengar: well... -leblanc: honestly, even worse than old lb -khazix: why even bother reworking one of the few assasins that was working as intended? strong under the right conditions, weak in other situations -fizz: finally tank fizz is back! what the hell were they thinking on this one? -katarina: yeah... instead of punishing a champion for bad engages and trades... lets give said champion a free way out of every situation. good idea the whole rework showed that riot has no idea what to do with assassins. every single one of them was harder to punish post rework while being too reliable in bad situations. when the tank update is done, they can start with assassins again..
Ramen226 (NA)
: So what is the counterplay
normal game matchmaking threads? really? there were diamonds on both teams in the game youre talking about because they both most likely were premade with someone else. happens. the matchmaking circlejerk becomes more ridiculous every day. soon we have threads about aram and custom games matchmaking
: Ranked Matchmaking
1 rank =/= MMR. the rank is completely irrelevant for matchmaking, the only thing that matters is the mmr. the mmr and the mmr of the other players in a game determines how many LP you get and lose for that game. a gold 5 player can have the same mmr as a silver 3 player for example. 2 every new ranked account starts with a default mmr which is somewhere around mid to low silver, so there is no account without mmr. 3 op.gg just kinda guesses the mmr and in most cases is not accurate.
Zerenza (NA)
: Ekko's E has a dash then a blink, the dash is meant to give you an indication that he's coming, it makes it easy to land CC on him such as lux Q. His E+Q Combo will not one shot anyone late game unless they are SEVERELY behind or ekko is REALLY FAR ahead, it just doesn't do enough damage once everyone bought their items. It's a great way to trade in lane though if the person isn't smart enough to tell what's happening. Also last time i checked his W only gives him a shield if he steps inside it, which means that you know where he's most likely going to be during the time that it's up, it also has a 2 second delay before dropping and can only stun if he's inside or ults through it, not to mention the stun isn't very long compared to many other stuns in the game since it was nerfed. His ultimate is not the best way to escape a fight, when i use ekko i use it to go back in with W to get a big stun and heal so i can fight somemore. Not to mention having to keep track of where you were 4 seconds ago at all times is pretty difficult and can get you into a lot of trouble if your not careful with ekko. Edit: "Every champion needs something about them that makes them strong or feels broken to use, if they didn't the game would be boring."- Riot Meddler 2016
210% ap, 500 base dmg, ~15% missing hp dmg, 2 autos, thunderlords, lichbane procc from lvl 13 on. this indeed can kill a squishy. if someone gets hit by ekkos ultimate in his w, he is completely stupid. that gotta be the easiest to evade move in the entire game. so against anyone with even the slightest idea of positioning, using his ultimate this way wont work and most likely lead to your own death. 1.75 seconds aoe stun on an assasin isnt very long? thats more than syndra and annie (pre11) offer for example. and yes, every champion needs something to feel strong, thats not the problem. the problem is that ekko is way too hard to punish for poorly engaging and messing up because his kit is poorly balanced between offensive and defensive use.
Divewing (OCE)
: It's all fair considering he completely oozes counterplay and warning. Literally everything about Ekko is telegraphed. Q has a delay before returning, W has a travel time and warning indicator, E has a "cast time", and his R literally tells you where he will end up. Compare that to Tank Ekko who spams Es beating you over the head with endless slows thanks to IBG, I'd take getting 1 shot because I was either outplayed or stupid any day.
telegraphed? yes, no doubt. counterplay? well... maybe if his w wouldnt work as huge zoning tool from 1600 range away. am i supposed to run around the whole thing if he throws it behind me? because otherwise i get slowed or stunned and run down. why does it slow me for 40% if he isnt even close? its incredible easy for ekko to close a gap and all he needs to kill a squishy is e-first q-auto-auto (and maybe second q) which is basically undeniable once he closed the gap. and if he throws it from fog of war...well... i have 0.5 seconds to see the thing and react to it :D the stun isnt even hard to hit in a lot of situations with this small of a time window for the enemy to react and if he uses it correct in trades he doesnt even have to stun the enemy in order to make trading back impossible due to this bullshit shield that scales with 150% ap. if a champion is so extremely overloaded his numbers need to be trash in order to be balanced, but when ekko kills squishies with 2 abilities i kinda doubt this is the case. I'd be fine with ekko being able to play this effective in offense if he lacked defense, but i doubt theres any assasin that has more ways to leave a fight even if the engage didnt kill the target. w, retarded high ms boost on passive, ulti. just compare this to akali, rengar, khazix... i agree with op, the first thing they need to get rid off is rewarding him in several ways for missing his w. giving an assasin such a great zoning tool is the worst idea possible, just look at rengar.
: is it ok to flame my jungler when
people like you are the reason its almost impossible to play farm junglers. oh wow... a nidalee that ganks often in the early game... how could anyone possibly expect this. what should malph do when he is already behind? countergank her and gift her a double kill? he HAS to farm and wait until teams group up and teamfight, but then theres people like you who make this strategy completely unviable. "hurr durr, the only thing important in this game is my lane and everything thats beyond laning phase doesnt exist in my world". farming safely and waiting for teamfights where nidalee becomes beyond useless? nah, gotta hardcarry these trash players who happen to be at the same elo as i am!!
: LP System Flawed.
> How can I be paired up with people who are not near my skill level? ok where do i start. i can only look at the last 13 rankeds you played on op.gg so ill go with them. you dealt most dmg on your team in 1 game you had most farm on your team in 2 games you had most gold on your team in 1 game you had the highest level on your team in 3 games (not counting 3 or 4 games where everyone was 18) while playing mostly midlane you bought 9 control wards in 13 games (3 in one support game, not a single one as jungler in 2 games) your kda is 2.5, your kill contribution is 40% as mid/jungle your arent even close to carrying anything. #1 priority for you should be farming. i didnt see a single game where your farm was decent as laner with the worst offenders being something around 100cs in 30-40 minutes. if you learn how to farm properly, you will stop to fall behind in xp and gold and start to actually carry games. and when you dont play support, you purchase one vision ward in 2 games on average. thats not enough. > We should not lose maximum LP if the team has an AFK. ok, if youre fine not getting maximum lp if the enemy team has an afk aswell.
: It's JUNGLING time
Sounds like you want to play zac. Not that familiar with his rework tho, but right now he offers everything youre asking for. otherwise maybe hecarim/jarvan/wukong (in this order), but their early clears are complete garbage so you need some practice. Elise or graves might fit aswell, even tho elise lacks escapes and graves lacks cc, but they fit 3/4 each.
Glory97 (EUW)
: Why complaining about lee sin?
one problem is that theres happening nothing even close to a discussion. either people blindly defend lee sin or want to see him gutted to the point where he isnt viable at all. the main problem with lee sin is: he is too reliable in what he is doing. he is the #1 early game champion and cant really be contested by any other jungler which leads to him being extremely strong in early ganks and invades (you cant countergank as enemy jungler if you lose the 2v2 situation). this on its own is kinda fine, someone has to fill this role. But the problematic part is: he has too many ways to reliable use his tools at both, offense and defense. this makes him not only extremely strong when he goes aggressive, but also extremely strong when being forced into defense (wardhop, q to minions/mobs). This leads to lee sin being too hard to punish for mistakes. compare it to elise or eve for example. both pretty great invaders and strong in catching the other jungler off guard, but if they invade and fail, they die because they have great tools to initiate a fight, but very bad tools to escape it. > And a good lee sin main that knows how to use the strong earlygame to snowball the game deserves to win. thats the point. he should be high risk, high reward, but the risks he has to take are too low due to his safety and tools to comeback if behind (strong midgame ganks, godlike and healthy clear). Nothing is wrong with him being able to snowball and creating an early game lead, but there should be a way for his playstayle to backfire.
: How to Gank Vladimir
dont gank him if he is ahead and has his ultimate up, you'll just gift him a double kill. if you can kill him: from behind. he has no tools to escape other than his pool, protobelt hardly counts as disengage. wait with your gapcloser until his pool is used. if you gank him properly, he is forced to blow his pool really early and you can engage. you can kinda think about his pool like any blink ability. for example lee sin: you gank him from behind, he is forced to immediatly use his pool and move through you because otherwise he will be kicked into your teammate. then you throw your q at the point where he will reappear after the pool is over and either you have a kill or he is forced to use flash (if you dont miss your q ofc..) another thing you can take advantage of against vlad: vlad has a bad wave control. either he farms with q which has a fairly high cd in the early game and is single target or he waveclears with e which will push the lane super hard, no matter if he wants to or not. therefore its easy to tell when vlad will be in a good position for a gank.
: Ehh i can see that, too. Imo, mid and top winning lane has very little impact regardless
i agree with toplane, but midlane has a huge impact if winning, especially before teams start to group. if you push your lane and allow yourself to roam while your enemy laner has to stay in lane, you can do whatever you want and influence every lane aswell as jungle. as for toplane: riot tried to change this with rift herald, but it didnt really change anything until now. theres no other role where i feel more isolated than toplane. i just farm, trade with my lane enemy and hope that my team will be able to win teamfights.
Daklore (NA)
: I have seen plenty of games where one side's ADC wins lane, but looses the game. If anything, the game is centered around jungle. Junglers can make or break your game.
why do you feel the game is "centered" around jungle? Yes, jungle is supposed to influence all lanes. So is mid (roams), so is top (teleport), and so is botlane (roaming and swapping). And any role can make or break your game as jungler aswell as you can make or break their game. Edit: i felt what i wrote seemed too rude, kinda ignored your "if anything" and changed some parts. my apologies for that. imo the game isnt centered around any role, but the bottom side of the map for the first 20 minutes of the game, which makes toplaners influence on the game kinda nonexistent pre20, except for tp plays. riot tried to change this by adding rift herald, but it didnt really pay off until now.
Azureee7 (EUW)
: So which Toxic™, no counterplay™, binary™ and unhealthy™ champ needs a rework?
Every champ that due to his kit can only be op or up. Basically every champ that has too many kinds of damage and too much utility for how offensive their playstyle is supposed to be which leads to the champions to deal too well in too many situations if their numbers are good enough (if the numbers are too bad theyre just completely irrelevant). {{champion:245}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:64}} coming to my mind here. Champions with such oppressive kits that they either are completely garbage or retarded op because their damage output is too high and safe to deal with if their numbers are good enough. {{champion:268}} {{champion:429}} as worst offenders here. Champions with oppressive jungle presence due to extremely high dmg, super fast clears while being able to kite extremely well (the first 2 only apply if their numbers are good enough). This combination seems to lead to the "either up or op" syndrome aswell.. {{champion:104}} {{champion:203}} Every assasin that is going for bruiser or dps builds. And why? Because riot decided to rework them away from burst to dps champions that need the bruiser/dps build to stay in fights for a long time. {{champion:105}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:107}} coming to my mind (oh suprise, they reworked them all and now they dont fit their supposed identity anymore and are a broken mess). But to be fair on this one, these 3 champions always were problematic, in case of LB and fizz mainly because theyre way to safe for how risky their playstyle should be imo. In general: every champion that only has 2 states of balance: too strong and too weak. PS: the point of this comment is not to say what is op or anything, but about what kind of kits are near impossible to balance properly. Oh.... and {{champion:13}} of course!
Ramen226 (NA)
: But it doesn't wtf. It lowers the mmr by 900 _ON YOUR FIRST FEW GAMES OF YOUR PLACEMENTS_ You're saying that because players have a lower starting point means that they will have a lower ending point which makes 0 sense. Having THE FIRST GAME OR 2 of placement series at a bronze 3 to 1 level is just plain sense. If they can't win vs. the worst players in the game then why the fuck should they be in silver. For whatever reason you just don't understand i am strictly talking about the first 2 games of promotional series at most to test if they understand basic principles of league of legends. Shifting new players default mmr to that of a new player is the most common sense sense response to a competitive ladder that you can make. But for SOME REASON you disagree. > When you lower the default MMR to lets say 900, the average elo will drop to 900 aswell (it would need some time if you implement this change right away tho, because the players that already played ranked before had another base MMR, so it would need some soft resets or a single hard reset to come close to an average MMR of 900). No, it wouldn't. And there's no evidence to support that claim whatsoever. Making players start from the bottom doesn't mean the average player's skill level is at the bottom. But making sure that they understand basic fundamentals of league of legends can ONLY be accomplished by lowering mmr. The whole point of base mmr is supposed to be a STARTING point from which the players can BEGIN their climb. It's not supposed to be where average skill level is It's supposed to be a starting point I don't know how many ways i can phrase this before you understand it. **_New players should not be put at the average skill level to get an accurate rating on how good they are._**
> For whatever reason you just don't understand i am strictly talking about the first 2 games of promotional series at most to test if they understand basic principles of league of legends. You want 2 games to decide if a player is able to play ranked?... so... since the ranked system ONLY considers wins and losses and not your performance you want people who lost both games but did well in both games to be dropped down to mid bronze elo? you think this is a good idea? you want to leave the sinkhole thats silver 3-5 and instead want to create something far worse at mid-high bronze? How should the MMR be calculated? The MMR decides about the matchmaking, NOTHING ELSE. if you want new players to play in those lower elo games, you NEED TO GIVE THEM LOWER MMR BECAUSE THE RANKED SYSTEM NEEDS A VALUE TO COMPARE THE PLAYERS AND MATCH THEM. if you just throw them in super low elo games but keep the default elo, the elo gains and losses of that game would be completely retarded. or you want them to change their MMR from 900 to ~1300 in 2 games?... uhm... ok? I understood what you said, but showed you in 10 ways how its not possible without screwing up the whole ranked system. > You're saying that because players have a lower starting point means that they will have a lower ending point which makes 0 sense. not in terms of skill. im saying that the MMR of the people who already played ranked would decrease over time, but this would happen to every player. So their relative ranking compared to anyone else would stay the same, only the MMR would change. but i start to see why you think what i say makes no sense if youre not able to understand it at all. I try a last time with a hint: Every ELO system does nothing but shifting the default values around and divides them among all players until the values reflect the strength of any player compared to everyone else. > Shifting new players default mmr to that of a new player is the most common sense sense response to a competitive ladder that you can make. But for SOME REASON you disagree. it doesnt work. You dont get the basic concepts of elo rating. > No, it wouldn't. And there's no evidence to support that claim whatsoever. maths? wtf? i even gave you an example. just because you dont understand thats in fact evidence it doesnt magically disappear. > The whole point of base mmr is supposed to be a STARTING point from which the players can BEGIN their climb. No. You dont get the basic concepts of elo rating. > New players should not be put at the average skill level to get an accurate rating on how good they are. They should because its the best way to have a consistent ranked ladder. You dont get the basic concepts of elo rating. Im done at this point, you honestly dont even want to understand how the system works anymore and went full brainless rage mode or something.
Ramen226 (NA)
: What you're saying makes no sense. It doesn't shift the entire ladder it only shifts where player new to ranked specifically start out in their promotions specifically. I'm not talking about players new to the game or new to that ranked season. I'm specifically taking about what elo a person plays at when they do their first promotional series. It only affects accounts that are playing their promotional series the first time
it makes perfect sense but again you didnt read what i wrote. i already commented on what you said now: > It only affects accounts that are playing their promotional series the first time No it doesnt. Here my answer from above: > When you lower the default MMR to lets say 900, the average elo will drop to 900 aswell (it would need some time if you implement this change right away tho, because the players that already played ranked before had another base MMR, so it would need some soft resets or a single hard reset to come close to an average MMR of 900). Of course it wouldnt happen in an instant that the average MMR becomes 900. But there are resets at the end of every season for example. Those resets are orientated at the DEFAULT MMR. this means: if youre at your true MMR at the end of the season, the reset will put you somewhere between the DEFAULT MMR and your actual MMR. In case of a hard reset, it actually becomes the DEFAULT MMR. And again from my other post: IF you start to give different default MMR values to different account, you shift the average MMR around and therefore make the MMR system instable because it needs a stable average MMR to function properly. If you have 1000 Players which started with 1300 default MMR (you again sit at 1400 MMR in this example) and then start to give new ranked accounts another default MMR, the average MMR will converge to the NEW DEFAULT MMR OVER TIME. If 1000 new players started playing ranked with your new default MMR (lets say 900 MMR), the new average MMR will be 1100. If you then do a soft reset at the end of the season, the new average MMR is 1000. But: you STILL play only slightly above average and therefore will lose MMR until you are close to your ranking in the new system you designed by shifting numbers around. You will lose MMR until you are at your skill level COMPARED TO THE OTHER PLAYERS, here maybe something around 1070 because right now the average MMR is 1000. This continues until the average MMR is pretty much 900, until this point your own MMR will decrease until you are in the exact same situation you are in right now! And then? you want to lower the default MMR until it reaches 0? and then? you increase everyones MMR by 2000? You realise that you had to rework the league system all 2 weeks if you do this? Oh and before you suggest that resets dont orientate at the default MMR: this would inflate or deflate the MMR aswell because both variants would change the average MMR with every reset.
Segius (NA)
: Best advice to get out of bronze
Best advice i can give you if its your first ranked season: dont think about your ranking. concentrate on becoming a better player and nothing else. your rank is meaningless, the other players are meaningless, even if you win or lose is meaningless. only think about what YOU couldve done better every game. if you die, dont search for excuses or other peoples fault but think about how you couldve avoided dying there. i dont think you should try to carry every game and try to make few mistakes and learn from the ones you make instead. but still you should try out your limits. try an aggressive play when you feel that you can go for it, dont hesitate. if you die, you learn what not to do the next time, if you pull the play off successful, you learned what to do next time again. same goes if youre fed: test out how far you can go, by knowing the limits of your champ when youre fed you learn how to carry. and always remember: you learn more about the game when you lose compared to when your team just steamrolls the enemies.
Ramen226 (NA)
: But why. Why should i have to deal with players who are brand spanking new to the game. And why is mmr not even slightly calculated outside ranked games. They need to prove that they are capable of basic functions such as using runes maybe? (which in my experience is all that you need to get out of bronze) base mmr shouldnt be at mid silver it should be at mid bronze. Bronze you can carry, silver is where the players can spam abilities well enough and it's 10x harder to carry a player on your team thats when playing vs silvers than when vs bronze. Put new players at the lowest point until they prove to the system that they're capable of playing league.
If you start to let normal games or flex q or whatever influence the ranked MMR you end up with a total mess. How should it be calculated? The average MMR would change which is a problem because the MMR system doesnt work as precise as before anymore, mostly because you struggle to make meaningful statements about the skill level of a player compared to other players if you dont know the average MMR. > base mmr shouldnt be at mid silver it should be at mid bronze. This wouldnt help. Please read what i already wrote. The base MMR is, by definition of the MMR system, the average MMR aswell. And because the MMR system doesnt measure your skill, but your skill compared to all other players, this change wouldnt achieve anything at all. Example how the default MMR functions and why ranking means nothing: you have a default MMR of 1300. Therefore the average MMR among all players is 1300. Now you play slightly above average at a skill level of lets say 1400 MMR which happens to be your MMR value (because you play slightly above the default/average level of all players this value might be accurate). When you lower the default MMR to lets say 900, the average elo will drop to 900 aswell (it would need some time if you implement this change right away tho, because the players that already played ranked before had another base MMR, so it would need some soft resets or a single hard reset to come close to an average MMR of 900). BUT: compared to all other players, you STILL only play slightly above average. Since you designed a new default value and therefore average value, your MMR is no longer 1400, but in the new system its more like 1000. All you achieved with this change is a shift in ladder rankings (if you dont adjust the relationship between ranking-MMR). Then not 30% or whatever it is now are in bronze but all the players who play below the rank that belongs to the current average MMR (somewhere around mid-low silver, which is 75% or so). Always remember: MMR ONLY measures your skill compared to all other ranked players. If you put all 200 challenger players and no one else in the current ranked system, they would all hover somewhere around bronze-gold because their skill compared to the other 199 players isnt that much higher or lower. And as i already said, you just sadly play close to the average skill level which leads to you having around the same MMR as a new lvl 30 account. The only thing you can do to change that is to change your own MMR.
: Stupid Jungler Mentality
Depends on the enemy champion. A fed syndra will always kill at least one of you two if you gank her for example. A fed darius? fiora? camille? draven? just to list a few champions i dont gank when they already are fed because i know exactly they will just delete us 1v2 or 2v3. For your example: if cho doesnt build negatron and doesnt farm with his q and doesnt wait until he can survive syndra before going close to her: do i actually trust him to come back when i gank and trade kills at the best scenario (dont forget about counterganking etc, a losing lane is most likely not able to deepward for example)? no. no i dont. lets take a look at the worst case: i gank a losing lane (lets say midlane), we have no vision of their jungler. we get counterganked and the enemies kill our laner and the jungler (me) without losing a lot of hp. now the enemy midlaner is not 2 levels ahead but 3 and takes fb turret with their jungler (the turret is likely low already when my laner died a lot). now their laner is 2.5k gold ahead instead of 1k (fb turret, kill gold and farm that my laner missed). Because the turret already was kinda low and didnt take a lot of hits to fall they group with their botlane which could push without consequences because i died and take drake or botlane turret aswell. this is the worst case ofc, but its not that unlikely to happen if you think about how far ahead the enemy laner already is. So what do i do? i search for ways to get fed myself, go for easy turrets and kills in other lanes and start grouping and enable the other lanes to roam. instead of killing myself on their midlaner i gank botlane for example and kill the adc and force the support back. even if my midlaner died again, we can contest fb turret or take drake and generate an advantage because our midlaner isnt worth anything anymore. and again, this scenario is not unlikely to happen. What does have a higher rate of success even if we dont consider the worst case scenario? you can find the answer yourself. I dont play to make you feel comfortable or useful, i play to win the game.
Ramen226 (NA)
: Why do new players play their first few games of ranked in mid/high silver or low gold?
Its due to the default MMR. You have to understand that the important thing about the ranking system is NOT the rank that is displayed on your profile. The only thing that matters is the MMR or ELO (its the same). When a player enters ranked games, he needs a default value. This default value is around mid-low silver MMR and with the current systems design (every game grants the same amount of MMR to the winning team as it takes from the losing team) this default value will also be the average MMR. This leads to what you talked about at the average/default level of play (mid-low silver). This cant be changed if you dont change the ranked system as a whole. The MMR value doesnt take into account your "own" skill level, but your skill level compared to all the other players that play ranked. changing the default MMR value therefore wouldnt change anything aswell because your skill level would still be around the default MMR value. I understand that its frustrating to deal with this issue, but it cant be changed until riot decides to dump the MMR system (which i hope they dont).
Raoul (EUW)
: @Lee SIn Defenders: Name one good reason why Lee Sin needs the ability to dash to wards!
I dont really mind him having the wardjump. I mind him having an answer to everything. They shouldnt destroy his numbers but shift his power around. The important question is: what is lee sins identity? Either you have a playmaking champion that needs to get his plays off in order to be effective or you have a champion that basically cant be contested in the early and midgame. if hes supposed to be a playmaker: im fine with him having a wardjump **and think he cant work without it** because its the main tool that allows him to get plays off, but then he shouldnt be able to contest every single champion until midgame. in this case they should shift power to his playmaking abilities (revert penalties on jumping to a ward for example), but lower his damage by a significant amount. Then he actually had to search for good oppurtunities to invade/duell/gank instead of being able to do whatever he wants to because he knows that counterganking him will most likely end up to his advantage aswell as invading from either jungler. if hes supposed to be non contestable early and midgame, they need to emphasize this part of his kit and shift power from his playmaking to it. For example they could remove wardjumping and reward him for hitting his q (with wardjumping gone he'd be forced to blow q+q to close a gap, so he should be rewarded for landing it. i dunno, maybe give him some kind of cd refund for damaging an enemy champion with both qs within 2 seconds or something) He'd be stronger when he properly engages on enemies but way weaker if he doesnt. Before someone starts a "he doesnt need compensation buffs!!" discussion: in both scenarios the nerfs are highly more impactful than the buff side and lee sin is not super op but he lacks clear weaknesses. I want him to have those clear weaknesses and numbers that allow him to still be effective where he should be effective.
: Remove gold accumulation per second.
-Support buys sightstone at 43 minutes into the game as first item- good idea, where can i sign the petition?
: PSA: IF YOU CANT LAST HIT WITH RELIC SHIELD AS THRESH
if you dont trust your support: just farm as usual. a half decent thresh will still be able to catch enough farm for all relic procs. i dont even know when the last time was where an adc waited for me to lasthit stuff and it still works out.
zafey (NA)
: after one and a half years of playing ranked, I finally get to silver, but ...
the problem is division 5. this division is a sinkhole for all those players who are worse than their rank but one time got lucky and made it there. because it is impossible to drop, but impossible to climb for them aswell, they dont give a shit about their games anymore. if you climb to mid silver this should get better (well... then you have to deal with fresh lvl 30 account tho), and if you climb to gold 5 it gets worse again :D the worst ive seen was actually d5, because the difference between division 5 and 4 is higher than anywhere else, so you have to deal with an incredible amount of players who just gave up.
: Twitch is broken
i really dont know why no one is talking about twitch and kogmaw. both are supposed to be late game hypercarries and well... since games mostly end before they even can reach lategame, i would expect them to be weak or anything.. but no.. appearently it is ok for them to delete the whole enemy team from 2 items onwards. both sitting at ~54% winrate for several patches doesnt seem to bother anyone. i guess because they arent picked in competitive. and for all those "twitchs early is terrible!!" - he has 49,5% winrate when the game ends before minute 25.. his early is weak, yes, but far from terrible. he has enough safety and trade potential to survive laning phase easily
: Switch knockback on graves passive to his Q
actually a good idea imo. removing the knockback completely would just instantly kill graves as a jungler and for other roles his kit is pretty bad. with your suggestion he still would have kiting from e and the q knockback which should be enough to survive the jungle but his near invincibility is gone.
: Oh, and if Kat is jumping on to a dagger it is so obvious you have way more than 2 seconds. Midlaner- "Hmm. Kat is walking a little closer than usual. She is obviously not gonna shunpo to the dagger she just threw."
Yeah as i said, you cant just spam your abilities. But why the hell are you assuming that kata will not try to punish you for taking a creep when she sees you walking up to take a creep? Why is everything you say assuming that kata will wait for you to lasthit to throw her q? it just makes no sense at all. I wasnt the one talking about influence area: "If you are using a midlaner that has poke/range and you are close to Kat's Q or close enough for her to E, then you are playing the matchup wrong." It was never about how effective she is when reaching you, but, again, you entirely missed the point. She can reach you which you denied in the first place. And again: you have to walk up to farm at some point. kata will not ignore that and throw her q as soon as you want to auto a minion. and you should know how her q dagger lands (tip: it doesnt bounce to your front side!). you have to get out of its zone, but also need to back off to your turret, which isnt easily possible. so you are always at risk of kata going all in whenever you want to farm without skills (her q can contest your aa range). YOU assumed that you never have to go into her q range and now you say im supposed to farm with autoattacks... what? Wow you had no troubles dealing with kat in one game? If you really think her burst is in no way linked to her e you should read her kit because pretty much her whole kit is build around her e. And still your post didnt counter anything? She still spikes at lvl 2 and not 3. She is still impossible to hit with skillshots. she is/was still not easily punished. It was way more than 2 seconds... what?? please read her kit and her downtimes because you start spreading just straight up wrong information. 10 seconds e cd, ~80% reset. thats pretty much exactly 2 seconds e cd and thats exactly the window where you could punish her because either she will all in you after the first jump if she could kill you or retreat to the minion wave if she couldnt. and thats in laning phase before she started maxing e. > But thanks for your well thought, open minded comment that contributed nothing but "I don't know how to lane properly against Kat and therefore shes broken". Yeah thats why riot finally nerfs her the way im suggesting for 3 months after trying everything else. Thats the reason she was completely broken in higher elo+ for a long period of time. I just dont know how to play the game. why the hell are you trying to shittalk me skillwise when all i did was to criticise that you dont adress anything i said in my prior post at all? Edit: oh i see.. you never played a ziggs game in ranked and arent playing ranked in general... well i guess kata is super up.. i mean we have normal games where people troll around and most likely first time her as evidence...
: If you are using a midlaner that has poke/range and you are close to Kat's Q or close enough for her to E, then you are playing the matchup wrong.
because every poke midlaner is under his turret the whole laning phase and uses his long range abilities to farm minions the whole time? of course you have to react to the situation and maybe have to decide if you want to go close to the minion wave to not spend your mana for lasthitting. nothing to do with playing a matchup wrong. ps: kata has 2 jumps with her reset. so you want to tell me its neccessary to stay out of 2 times e range? because you have to do that to stay away from her influence area entirely. but thanks for your well thought, open minded oneliner that contributed nothing but "you play wrong" and didnt react to a single statement of mine.
: How to create a TANK meta
is tank meta the time where tanks are actually played on toplane instead of camille, darius, fiora, renekton, gp, bruiser fizz? i mean at least picked at least as often and not like every 5th game? or where tanks are played in jungle at all (because they arent right now)? i mean tanks arent played anywhere at all in soloq. i'd love to see a "tank meta" if thats what you call it.
: Kat is really easy to punish in the laning phase, especially before she hits rank 3. You just need to poke her down and have CC. The time between when the player hits W, and when W lands gives you 1 or 2 seconds to do whatever you want. CC her and you have even more time. Experienced Kat players usually use a different combo from the one you mentioned. They E onto the champ, W, Q, get in an AA, have the W dagger land to reset her E, and then E to the set up Q.
why should kata be easily punishable? she is the one who decides if she takes a fight or not and has a safety net for ganks thats a long range blink ability with easy to pull off reset. cc her... well... good luck hitting your skillshots (most midlaners cc is a skillshot) on a good katarina. youre right with the combo, especially for all ins. mine was aimed at a usual laning situation where kata uses q on the minion wave or the enemy whos standing close to the minion wave and searches for chances to jump in for a trade. kata already kinda spikes at lvl 2 because she already has all tools neccessary to pull off said trade. she qs, jumps in, takes the dagger and jumps out (with autoattacks when possible ofc) or follows up if she has kill potential... or just stalls the lane out until lvl 3 with is easy with all her safety. sry i dont feel "zone and poke her as long as she is lvl 1" is a valuable counterplay. from lvl 3 on you had pretty much exactly 2 seconds from her first jump to punish her. but in this time she will be close to you and for pretty much every midlaner its a bad idea to start a trade when kata is close to you (aa, w dagger, another reset) because you will lose it escpecially since kata jumped in to trade for a reason (most likely the reason is that she can take on you in a fight, thats what i mean with "kata decides if she takes a fight or not") from that moment on it just gets worse. she was near impossible to hit with skillshots with the 2 second cd blink and her massive ms boost if she doesnt mess up her daggers. akali is easily punished, immobile mages with skillshots are easily punished, kata is/was not.
: Katarina E Shunpo Nerf
The problem is that it was way to hard to punish an experienced katarina in the laning phase. its not only about her cd on her shunpo but also the cd on her shunpo considering she is collecting a dagger for the passive reset. kata just threw q on you, shunpo in, use w, and you have to retreat and get distance to her because you cant trade in her w dagger. at the point you are in a position to trade back, katarinas shunpo is off cd again from the passive reset and she decides if she jumps onto you again to finish you off or just use it to retreat to the minion wave. now her resetted e cd is higher aswell and the enemy gets the chance to trade back when katarina jumps onto him. the window to trade back was just too short and this is the reason kata was extremely strong in lane. its completely fine that she gets punished by using her shunpo mindless without resetting it which really isnt that hard to do. btw: anivia is a good champ to deal with kata honestly. she can just threw her stuff close to your daggers and zone you away from them to deny your resets. without the daggers katarina is extremely weak
: itd be punishing if it was fixed how. If he conserved mana properly and not wasted it tryning to super poke with his eq combo it would make him more auto focused early game and more tactical in how he approaches figths.
he'd be forced to stay at high mana all the time. if he gets under 50% mana he might aswell recall because hes not able to react properly to what his lane opponent is doing. just imagine jayce vs riven or renekton (or another champ that can close the gap really well). jayce is in ranged form and farms. said enemy jumps onto him so he has to switch to meele form (costs mana) and use his e to disengage (mana for the only ability he wants to use). the enemy retreats and both go back to farm. jayce now has to choose if he stays in meele form and takes the risk of not being able to farm properly because he cant trade with the enemy in meele form or if he changes forms a second time (costs mana) to be able to farm. he had to pay mana for 3 abilities to use 1. it would be easily abusable by enemies and ofc would punish mindless usage of his ult but punish the correct use at the right times as hard. dont forget jayce is supposed to be really strong in lane and fall of later on, this change would make him far to dependend on his enemies actions for being a lane bully (this doesnt mean i dont want him to be able to react to everything without drawbacks, but i feel limiting the possibility for him to use his tools when he gets forced to use them isnt the way to go). thats the reason i feel like punishing him for mindless spam is fine, but hitting him for using his skills the right way is not.
: So how is teemo in high elo's?
the problem for teemo in higher elo is that he is incredible vulnerable to ganks, doesnt have the best teamfighting and higher elo players know when to take poke and when not to. when you dont get poked down by teemo, you might have enough hp to all in him in the laning phase, which rarely is the case in lower elo. his lane presence is absurdly strong and always has been. he bullies every single meele champ to the point where you just want to abandone your lane (like quinn). but he is squishy and doesnt really offer anything strong for defense. yeah he has a blind and a ms boost, but especially ms boosts are kinda useless when the enemies know how to gank properly. oh and just build mr first on a meele champ. always. even if you get the first kill on a champ that doesnt have 10 gapclosers (riven for example is fairly good against teemo if you max e first).
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freeloader25

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