: > [{quoted}](name=Lyseth,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H4lRX6BP,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-08-19T15:36:51.126+0000) > > I was hoping by "better champ", you meant not letting him pubstomp EVERYONE while requiring 3 champs to gang up and kill him Bs.
: skillshot CC needs to be range agnostic more often
don't forget gragas's ult and vel'koz E
: why are u letting ivern walk up to you
maybe because he sits next to his adc, and then i want to do my job and kill the adc but ivern undodgeable Q in melee range will snare me for 2 sec?
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: At no point have I talked about balance, and no part of this thread discusses balance. I am not saying certain champions are OP or UP, particularly since discussing their power level would require factoring in items and whatnot. What I am talking about is the _design_ of champions in League overall, which is different from balance: balance is a champion's overall power level and affects their chance of success, design is how that champion plays and what they specifically do. It is technically possible to balance all champions simply by adjusting their base health, pretty much no matter their design, but again, this says nothing about how loaded their kit is, how mobile they are, how much CC they can output, and so on. What I am talking about is how much of all these features are innate to champions in game, and how much new designs need to either have or compensate for in order to fit into this environment. This is relevant when discussing topics like the state of melee champions in the game, as the above spreadsheet shows just how much CC and mobility they can expect to contend with when trying to do their job.
Rioter Comments
: So I made a spreadsheet of features in champions' kits the other day...
that doesn't mean anything you do not take in account base stats and cooldowns, and mana cost for mana champions, and the range they have all of those hidden things that help to balance the game
aspects1 (NA)
: had my upvote till i realized it was you who was posting this the troll returns once more
https://i.gyazo.com/758a24f6b86f22beefd4cbbdf1981fd4.png https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-14-2016/neDnXC.gif
: Does Yasuo Actually Have Counterplay?
> [{quoted}](name=zeskgames,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Etx7mQZ8,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-08-19T02:17:37.792+0000) > > > **Bait out the windwall!** It's hard to when he can cast it whenever he wants and has a hitbox wonky enough to protect him from all angles anyway. whenever windwall is used, he doesn't have it for 26 sec as long as you manage to either: -back off -chase him behind the wall you're the winner at the end UNLESS you mindlessly use all your spells > [{quoted}](name=zeskgames,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Etx7mQZ8,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-08-19T02:17:37.792+0000) > > > **Buy Armor** 50% armor penetration on his ult (I think this tip was created by Yasuo players to get people to buy more armor for them to break) > nobody forces you to get hit by his Q yeah, you know his ult requieres a knock up, it's not "lolol i just use ult and get armor pen" yes, he can get knock ups by his allies, but unless it's a poorly designed spell like vi ult you can also not be knocked up > [{quoted}](name=zeskgames,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Etx7mQZ8,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-08-19T02:17:37.792+0000) > > **Just Avoid Him** Turing Yasuo into a MAP HAZARD isn't a solution. > what the fuck does "just avoid him" means? that just does not make any sense one of the counterplay to yasuo is to not fight him in lane where he can endlessly chase you/kite you > [{quoted}](name=zeskgames,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Etx7mQZ8,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-08-19T02:17:37.792+0000) > > **Don't Fight Him If You're Ranged** I guess just have the entire team go melee then? > one of the counter to yasuo is to have a heavy melee team but that's not just it, if you have a ranged champion in your team that is negated by windwall, as a melee champion you can back behind the wall to force yasuo to get out of it if he wants to deal damage in teamfight > [{quoted}](name=zeskgames,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Etx7mQZ8,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-08-19T02:17:37.792+0000) > > **Beat him mid game!** He'll just roam get a kill, and come back with more items! > that also doesn't make sense, why would midgame be a weakness of yasuo? "he'll just roam and get a kill" that also doesn't make sense because that means you can counter him by playing safe and not get killed the true weakness of yasuo is early game, after lvl 2 where you can get cheesed by him, his early game is dogshit > [{quoted}](name=zeskgames,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Etx7mQZ8,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-08-19T02:17:37.792+0000) > > **Just Counter Pick Him!** Though I wish this were true, not every team comp is designed just to flatten Yasuo. not every team comp is also designed to be destroyed by yasuo > [{quoted}](name=zeskgames,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Etx7mQZ8,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-08-19T02:17:37.792+0000) > > > **Git Gud** Oh, oh man, I didn't know it was that simple. With those two words and no further instruction I know have the secret to beating Yasuo and enlightenment! (Seriously screw those people. If anyone tells you the secret to beating a champ is to Git Gud, they have no idea themselves.) > by getting gud, those people want to tell you that it's not the champion's fault if you got destroyed by yasuo, but because you got outplayed you had all the tools to deal with him, dodge the tornado, force yasuo out of the wall, not be in between minions, abuse his early game and you still lost > [{quoted}](name=zeskgames,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Etx7mQZ8,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-08-19T02:17:37.792+0000) > > **Ban Him** Yeah, well, I mean that works, I guess. > indeed
Tôxíc (NA)
: Uhm no, LW was inefficient against squishies until late game. Flat pen is more effective against champions that dont stack armor.
LW was not inefficient against squishies reduced total armor by 35% squishies all had a base of 80 armor at lvl 18 and adc (at least in high elo) took GA as a last item why are you trying to teach me how the game was before when i had 2174 elo back then
: If he's taking advantage of that ratio then he's not building bruiser now is he?
: Mordekaiser has only two ranged spells which are his E and R, His W only does damage if the circles are overlapping or he reactivates it and then he doesn't even get the heal from it. His W is more of a defensive spell when he gets ganked 2v1. Nasus compared to Morde has a means of getting closer to his enemies to Q smash their faces in and stick to them meanwhile with Morde you're hoping that your Ult + DFT + Liandries kills the guy you placed it on.
mordekaiser W in duolane is ranged because you're pairing him with a support like leona, and then he can reactivate W to burst he also buys gunblade
: You said that in high Diamond, Nasus's win rate is far worse than 47%. So...wtf? How can you tell? You have nothing that confirms this information as either correct or incorrect, so how can you make that claim?
> [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JYTHx1O3,comment-id=002400000000,timestamp=2017-08-19T06:42:16.422+0000) > > > So...wtf? How can you tell? maybe through experience? LUL, ask a single high elo player if nasus or any immobile melee is great there i'm waiting
: So you would call something "broken" that barely started working....can anyone else see the problem with the usage of "broken"?
because you need to make nasus broken to make him working and since he isn't broken yet he still can't work
Juice (EUNE)
: Mordekaiser is just overtuned
wait what the fuck? First Morde has been played botlane a lot this year by flyquest second, i didn't see a mordekaiser building phage in ages, and that while even with phage his movement speed is garbage Third, mordekaiser can't 1v1 anyone, can't 1v2 unless there are minions to put W on, and even then minions are easily killed unlike champions > [{quoted}](name=Juice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9OQip2zd,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-08-18T23:23:27.334+0000) > > >60% win rate Morde top question mark?
: > [{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JYTHx1O3,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-08-18T13:47:12.688+0000) > > He's got 47% win rate in diamond+ **despite having his Q cd reduced by half under ult, and E shreding 35% of the enemy team armor**, **and that is while counting low diamond, because if you go above it's even worse** Alright, this claim is starting to bug me. You throw this around a lot, but the last time I truly challenged it, you said "Challenger tier has such a low population. I'm not talking about challenger." Meanwhile, at the same time, we *both* know that stat sites don't divide data by *divisions* rather than *tiers,* so what the hell are you citing when you make a claim like "X stats are this in Diamond 5 or 4, but that in Diamond 2 or 1"? Outside of that: Maybe if people wouldn't bitch about large scale reworks so much, I'd have sympathy for them when they're stuck with a highly unviable champion.
wait what the fuck? i said that he got 47% win rate WHILE TAKING in account low diamond if we ignored low diamond it would be worse because he would end up more unplayable with people having a brain it's easier to play immobile melees in low diamond than in high diamond
DracoMTA (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zbBcibEo,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-18T12:16:34.586+0000) > > LW not in this build, > > sure ADCs didn't build any armor. And armor pen interacted differently than it does now. Though reallistically yeah you build would be three bloodthirsters, youmuu's, and last whisper. Infinity edge was more expensive and didn't give 100-125 AD like bloodthirster used to way back. So all in all half your build was bloodthirsters anyway.
: What is meta right now?
the meta in 1 video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b37_NVyANh0 you're welcome
Häxel (EUW)
: chos rangespells are w and q. and q is a rly bad spell. while nasus has e and his w slow. These two champs are kinda similar. Diffrence is, that nasus mainspell is his q to farm with while cho farms with r.
how the fuck is his Q a bad spell when it deals 300+100% ap ratio?
Tarquin96 (EUNE)
: do you maybe have an acc no eune where we could play together so i can see how morde is supposed to be played
nop, i don't only euw and anyway i don't have that much time to play league anymore
Tarquin96 (EUNE)
: would {{item:3146}} {{item:3116}} {{item:3151}} {{item:3053}} be a good build with a optional 5th item and boots
: Darius, Skarner & Mordekaiser were picked multiple times right after their Juggernaut Update, so that counts for something.
: How long has Twitch been able to recall while stealthed?
since the release of the game and pre rework eve used to do the same same with pre rework rengar
: > [{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JYTHx1O3,comment-id=000e000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-18T17:12:03.899+0000) > > after jugg rework > > you're seriously listing me THE PAST when i'm talking about the present with how much knock back and slows we have now unlike before i was talking about the entire 2 years since the jugg rework, in which he was in a stable position. thats pretty damn impressive. > and how tank items got destroyed making you going for support items > > apparently he was, since riot nerfed him yes, he got nerfed with a bugfix. they just didnt bother with compensation buffs. but i dont understand how that compares to nasus and why he cant be buffed back up a notch? the point im trying to make is, that the concept of juggs being viable has been working in the past without breaking them. just because its difficult with nasus to bring him into a good spot, doesnt mean we need to throw away the entire concept. i think darius for example can be made viable again without breaking him. i think what they did to garens w with the cc parry is a pretty decent concept that might work for other juggs aswell. in darius case id focus more on his hook as a sticking mechanic.
: > [{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JYTHx1O3,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2017-08-18T17:06:45.321+0000) > > i don't remember Darius being balanced in high elo without being broken > he got nerfed everytime he showed up > > Yorick is good? how? dude got buffed like 5 times and has 1% pick rate +49% win rate > > Morde is hardly melee when you know how to play him and **i already said it on the original post** darius was in a pretty decent spot at high ratings for most of his time after the jugg rework. some meta shifts pushed him a bit over the top, but champion winrates fluctuate with every patch and he was never broken, or even bad until now.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JYTHx1O3,comment-id=000e00000000,timestamp=2017-08-18T17:08:36.470+0000) > > darius was in a pretty decent spot at high ratings for most of his time after the jugg rework. > after jugg rework you're seriously listing me THE PAST when i'm talking about the present with how much knock back and slows we have now unlike before and how tank items got destroyed making you going for support items > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JYTHx1O3,comment-id=000e00000000,timestamp=2017-08-18T17:08:36.470+0000) > > some meta shifts pushed him a bit over the top, but he was never broken, or even bad until now. apparently he was, since riot nerfed him
: People that suggest "ramp up damage" for ADCs are extremely tilted and need your sympathy
not an adc main (except morde) i hate adcs and i find them broken atm but ramp up damage idea is so fcking dumb even morde who's a big DPS champ deals burst damage to squishies due to how his damage are high against tanks
: but darius proved that you dont. so did yorick, and isnt morde really good in solo que right now too? youre making a general statement off an individual case. and imo nasus still isnt broken. he just scales like hes supposed to now. doesnt the same statement apply to him that you made about vayne? dont try to 1v1 him. force him into teamfights. because hes still pretty bad at anything but split pushing.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JYTHx1O3,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2017-08-18T17:04:26.747+0000) > > but darius proved that you dont. so did yorick, and isnt morde really good in solo que right now too? > > youre making a general statement off an individual case. i don't remember Darius being balanced in high elo without being broken he got nerfed everytime he showed up Yorick is good? how? dude got buffed like 5 times and has 1% pick rate +49% win rate in diamond+ Morde is hardly melee when you know how to play him and **i already said it on the original post**
Tazret (NA)
: Yeah because all games at 0 minutes are remakes. You can't provide accurate data. Half of these people bitching about twitch likely don't play twitch or even ADC. Try laning ONCE against a competent adc using one of the champions I listed as twitch and see how it goes.
https://euw.op.gg/champion/twitch/statistics/adc it literally doesn't matter if it's min 0 or min 10 twitch is always above 50% win rate no matter the time twitch is just a busted freelo champ that needs to be gutted AND YES i already played twitch
: keyword "competitive" not solo Q, yes twitch solo Q record is pretty good but so was rengars before he was nerfed and Rengar even got to the point of being competitively really strong pick. Which is astounding sense the competitive way of playing should be the biggest counter to things like Rengar.
you need to start to watch competitive if you think that twitch is not played in competitive http://www.gamesoflegends.com/champion/picksandbans.php?season=S7&tournament=ALL&patch=7.15
Sub HeroCro (EUNE)
: Mate nasus might be a bad example for worlds I agree with your point everything kite able is nothing more then a gimmick. Most melee champions die in fights before they get to do anything. (Unless they are something like yasuo,riven etc) But you ahve to remember laneswaps exist in worlds. This is how I countered nasus bunch of times in SoloQ. I just told my botlane to swap from the get go and by default I was more useful then nasus without bunch of stacks
laneswap is still a thing? i thought it stopped existing since riot's tower change
: Righteous Glory, bro.
has 90 sec cd and stops on the frontline, glory isn't like phage
: > [{quoted}](name=Zardo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vxHFE4EH,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-08-18T02:01:42.482+0000) > > Honestly, I don't mind her being powerful. She feels a lot better to play against than brand, malz, or even blitz. How? Brand and Blitz have so much counterplay in the form of skillshots that you can dodge and when they're not impactful, you can feel it. Trist w/ Janna is like, okay you're gonna get shoved in and any sign of aggression on Trist and you'll be met by an AD who can 1v2 and you cannot engage on. It's so frustrating and impossible to do anything while you watch the hypercary shit on you levels 2-18.
brand and blitz have as much counterplay as janna only thing that has no counterplay on janna is her Q cancelling dash instantly and it takes skill so i'm not complaining
: >the game should be balanced around all elo ?? i don't really agree. The game should be balanced for high elo (mean Diamond and above, that's my pov tho).
i didn't say i agree, that's just what riot said i personally think it should be balanced around master tier/challenger tier just like in dota
Galiö (NA)
: @Balance Team for worlds.
poppy is already massively played as a counter to zac in EUW lcs
: Ivern does not need buffs. I don't want to have 56% winrate Ivern again.
he needs it for world they can nerf him later
: I will probably get downvoted,but i think tristana is a bit OP
https://i.gyazo.com/fa3b6e5292aadee42474468ddb3b4558.png http://i.imgur.com/Iyf8wqG.jpg
Tôxíc (NA)
: At the time you didn't build armor other than zhonyas on any carries, pd/deaths dance combo also didn't exist
at that time, LW was total armor pen which was deadly against squishies
: why does mord max w and how does he use it efficiently?
because other spells are terrible to max first E maxing makes the base damage going from 35 to 110 Q maxing increases the total AD ratio, which means you need a high base ad to make use of it, which means you need lvls to make use of it W maxing on the other hand, REDUCES MASSIVELY the cooldown, from 14 to 8 seconds i believe, while also increasing the damage AND healing from it how to make use of it? in lane use it to push because mordekaiser is a champion that needs to push to make use of the passive to counter poke if you don't get poked you don't need to push use it to fight in 1v1 if you need healing asap, double tap it (which makes you sacrificing damage) don't forget to heal allies!
Tarquin96 (EUNE)
: I just need general tips,like best build(i play him top) , keystone choices and things like that
keystone for toplane is stormraider, it's important to escape ganks i can't help you for builds because morde can build almost all items in the game however DO NOT think that morde is forced to build rylai
: What's diamond plus, less than 1 percent of the playerbase? So small a demographic that I wonder if it's even worth mentioning. How's Nasus doing in gold and below?
he's between 49% and 50% win rate depending on which elo you take also, why do you care about diamond plus being less than 1 percent of the player base? the game should be balanced around all elo ,riot said it multiple time, so if it's not balanced in diamond+ there is a problem
: If you know how logic works so well, then use it. This discussion is about his early game compared to other ADC's. If we want to get into the discussion about supports then we have to consider many more variables. Like nerfing the supports instead of the ADC itself or specific 2v2 matchups. That is why I gave you the statistic about Lulu and Janna that you conveniently ignored. You can't hide from my point forever >). At some point you will have to admit how bad he is early compared to other ADC's >)
> [{quoted}](name=Naked Villager,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3Kiyqpre,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-18T15:26:53.113+0000) > > > > This discussion is about his early game compared to other ADC's. no, we don't care about other adcs we only talk about kog, and if his early game is weak enough to compensate his godlike late game and it isn't he starts the game with 49% win rate, that shit isn't weak for how his late game is
Tazret (NA)
: So then explain why twitch isn't currently a top tier pick in competitive. I can. Because he gets shit on by Draven Varus Lucian Miss fortune Kalista Xayah Jhin caitlyn miss fortune Whoopsies. Did I just name almost the entire adc lineup? Thats because he can't lane for shit.
dafuq? twitch has 51% win rate at min 0 and he gets destroyed by the entire adc line up XDDDDDDDD
: ??? Exactly. Bot lane is 2v2 which means that the support plays a huge role in the ADC's early game. Put AD Kog mid vs every other ADC in the mid lane 1v1. Kog won't be top tier in the early game. Kog'maw heavily relies on his support for early success. Much more so than other ADC's Kog'maw's most common supports are Janna and Lulu according to Champion.gg. That context is important.
> [{quoted}](name=Naked Villager,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3Kiyqpre,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-18T15:10:36.439+0000) > > ??? Exactly. Bot lane is 2v2 which means that the support plays a huge role in the ADC's early game. adc are not balanced around being alone adc are always balanced around 2v2 if kog early game becomes better because of a support it immediatly needs nerfs to balance his late game that's how logic works if you want balance
Tarquin96 (EUNE)
: you the guy that plays morde adc right?i could use some tips on morde
go ahead, i'll answer most important thing you need to know is to wait lvl 3 and all in to kill them
: I thought cho already did proof that...
: Kog'maw doesn't do much early. At all. The key to what you said is, "...with his support...". Now you are talking about supports.
Kog'maw pokes harder than any adc that isn't named draven and you tell me he doesn't do much early? also from more range than anyone not named cait? "with his support" wait, you actually forgot that botlane is 2v2?
: So you are that legend...
legend? are you talking about botlane Darius?
Penns (EUW)
: well mercs are still a very good item against those champs, if anything make a new item for bruisers that helps them but dont buff tenacity. but preferably not one that makes champs like Darius and Nasus with Phage completely unkiteable xd
phage is a band aid created by riot to help immobile melees, and it ended up garbage i would gladly have phage nerfed/removed if we get an item helping immobile bruisers
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i am Rubick Sama

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