Abandon (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=iDarkWind,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=orobgNQT,comment-id=001e,timestamp=2019-08-21T01:13:17.115+0000) > > Call the rework a failure when his play rate went from probably something around 1.5% or even less to 20% plus. > The rework thematic and everything is fantastic. People defending the old abnoxious Aatrox wich consisted of a Drain Tank AA based champion are incredibly hilarious, because those are the same that also complain about other atrocities such as tryndamere or jax that are similar to old Aatrox: You either had stats to kill him with your autos or you didn't. The factor "outplay" never existed. > > Other interesting fact is that no one cared about Aatrox, and after the rework suddently everyone cares and mains him, fantastic. "After the rework suddently everyone cares and mains him, fantastic." It succeeded in doing that. Destroying a fan-base in hopes of bringing the mass population of normie players. I like how you're going off about drain tanks and have to put 'AA' in there like it changes anything. If you don't have stats to beat the current Aatrox, heck any champion, you're most likely not going to beat them. Haven't you seen the amount of complaints about people wanting the current Aatrox nerfed because he heals too much? Whether or not he's doing from auto attacks or abilities literally doesn't matter lmfao. Btw if you're going to make the reference that old Aatrox is akin to Tryndamer and Jax because they auto attack, then I guess it's a fair comparison to make that Aatrox is akin to Akali right? Because they both use abilities and are obnoxious if the players are good. Do you feel 'outplayed' when you literally can't do anything to fight back against a champion because 'they played it right' aka 'have abilities that deny you any way of counterplay'?
Tell me you're just trolling. You're really saying that a AA Based Drain Tank is the same thing as the current Aatrox? Are you out of your mind? What kind of outplay you had back then? The dude straight up walked into you and beated you by right clicking with his mouse on top of your head. The best you could do was trying to run and kite as much of possible, but then you remenber that he had a gap closer on his Q, a big slow on his E and as ultimate he would increase his AA Range. The current one requires much more skill to be used to its full potencial, and that's the number one reason his win rate increases by rank. Also, none of his abilities are targeted wich means you can actually dodge his damage. Heck, he has to even land his sweet spots to actual do insane amounts of damage on top of him losing his revive wich makes the player actually have to think when to engage so that he doesn't simply die. Now answearing some of your questions: "Haven't you seen the amount of complaints about people wanting the current Aatrox nerfed because he heals too much?" Yes, just like I've seen people complain about everything and every champion and asking to nerf especific parts that are the identity of the champion. Those people who complain about his healing probably are the ones who don't want to waste 800 gold to negate half of his regen and DD healing. "Whether or not he's doing from auto attacks or abilities literally doesn't matter lmfao." Bro, you're desilusional aren't you. When you do damage from auto attacks you just need to literally walk into the enemy and right click him to the death, on the other hand if you're an AD Caster that has skillshots you have to actually land your skillshots and also your opponent can dodge them. That's the big difference, and I am not going to exploit any further because if you have at the very least 20IQ you wouldn't be saying that crap you just wrote. Moving on. "Btw if you're going to make the reference that old Aatrox is akin to Tryndamer and Jax because they auto attack, then I guess it's a fair comparison to make that Aatrox is akin to Akali right? Because they both use abilities and are obnoxious if the players are good." The comparasion I made between them was very restricted because I said that they were both similar in terms of being a ball of stats that either had damage to kill the enemies by walking into them and auto-ing them or not, but answearing your question: No. Akali is much more abnoxious than Aatrox in everysingle way, and that's the reason number one that she's still getting hard nerfed even tough her WR is already in the dumpster. Akali is much more abnoxious than Aatrox ever was and offers much less counterplay while giving much more frustration when played against. "Do you feel 'outplayed' when you literally can't do anything to fight back against a champion because 'they played it right' aka 'have abilities that deny you any way of counterplay'?" If the guy literally played the champion perfectly why wouldn't I feel outplayed? Aatrox has cast time literally in every single ability and offers time enough to react. Also the player has to manage to land the sweet spots in order to max his damage output. This question you just made makes no sense whatsoever. Your question is supposing that Aatrox has no counterplay when played right - wich is false. Aatrox offers reaction time to his opponents and isn't linear as auto attackers are because he is a Spell Casters. His abilities can be dodged and he also can miss it by himself. Aatrox playing well isn't the only factor involving his sucess, how the opponent reacts and plays also plays a huge role.
Rylalei (EUNE)
: May I ask when will people like you stop reading to reply and start reading to understand? I've mentioned AT LEAST TWICE in the OP that this isn't about the high elo/pro play Akali, the mains, the etc, so why can't people understand that? This thread is about the bad Akali players, that somehow win lane for idk what reason. I stated that I can understand losing to an actual main not the "I have 14k mastery on Akali, I main her". Those Akali players that are bad shouldn't win lane, the reason why I posted those matches is to exemplify that if the Akali isn't a main, you can dumpster her. I said that Blitz seems to have issues with games older than 20 days, it will barely load it, so it's hard to find more games than the ones showcased there. If I can beat those bad Akali players, why, can't, other, players, do, the, same? Yea, I may not be high elo, but that doesn't change the fact that in my games, I'm the only one that wins lane against her.
Bro it doesn't change anything tho. Those players that suck at the champion still win the lane because of how busted the champion is. The hard part about Akali isn't during the laning phase, but during team fights is when you can see the difference between good and bad Akalis. During laning phase she literally walks into you and Q + AA + Q. If she takes electrocute this means half of your HP is gone and there's literally not counterplay for that besides staying out of range. Even bad Akali players can do that. You being able to deal with those "bad Akalis" is fine, but why are you exactly expecting that every other player does the same? It makes no sense to me. You're more used to play against an Akali and do well? That's great and all, but it doesn't mean every other player in your rank can do the same. I still can't understand what's the point of this thread tho. I can't see how is this a "discussion" exactly. Just because you can do well versus the "bad Akalis" it doesn't not mean everyone else has to do the same, everysingle player has their own strenghts and weaknesses.
Rylalei (EUNE)
: Now that Akali will get another nerf
- She shits on everything that is meele during laning phase - Her shroud is one of the most abnoxious abilities in the game - She has a total of 3 dashs including two from her ultimate - One of the biggest powerspikes of the game from finishing the first item wich is {{item:3146}} Riot is nerfing her because they have good reasons to do so. Her Win Rate somehow shows to be an atrocity, however when you face Akalis in high elo, you feel totally helpless, especially if you're a meele champion versus her. And if this wasn't enough, she is prominent in pro play. She's a mobile assassin that is extremly hard to kill due to the fact she has acess to Zhonya's, many dashes from her abilities and her shroud ability. No amount of your soloQ games will ever be enough to prove any point whatsoever, especially when you're not even in high elo to begin with.
Abandon (OCE)
: And we're back here again... another nerf/change for Aatrox.
Call the rework a failure when his play rate went from probably something around 1.5% or even less to 20% plus. The rework thematic and everything is fantastic. People defending the old abnoxious Aatrox wich consisted of a Drain Tank AA based champion are incredibly hilarious, because those are the same that also complain about other atrocities such as tryndamere or jax that are similar to old Aatrox: You either had stats to kill him with your autos or you didn't. The factor "outplay" never existed. Other interesting fact is that no one cared about Aatrox, and after the rework suddently everyone cares and mains him, fantastic.
: How does Riot think a veteran Aatrox and Panth main feels about their reworks?
As someone I would pick pre-rework Aatrox very often when playing on top lane, I can't seriously understand why people hate on the new Aatrox. I know very well that the primary complain is that it's an entire different champion, but let's make on thing clear: Drain Tank Auto-Based Champion could never ever be balanced. It would either be extremly abnoxious or just weak like Aatrox was most of the time during his pre-rework state. Right before he got reworked tough, he was meta and actually got picked often on LCS, and guess what? The number one reason for that was because of the combination of {{item:3748}} + {{item:3124}} wich would turn him into a monster that would deal insane amounts of damage while healing stupid large amounts too. On top of that, he had no counterplay whatsoever because he was just a right click champion. The new Aatrox concept on the other hand is totally different. You actually feel like a powerful demon drain tank that is rewarded when you played with an actual brain (wich the old one wasn't the case at all). Landing your sweet spots in the middle of the team fight, dealing a lot of damage while healing a ton is just satisfying and totally fits his thematics. The ultimate reset is also amazing, since you actually do you feel you're an "World Ender". People like to sh*t on Riot for Aatrox rework, and I clearly can't see why and I'll never agree with them. I know very well that if someone mained an AA based champion would be extremly difficult to adapt to a completly new playstyle that is an AD Caster, but still! Aatrox pre-rework could never be in a balanced state and would always be either extremly oppresive or a extremly weak pick that would only be picked by his 3 mains in the entire world.
leakinb (NA)
: I'm really sick of Pyke
I know you hate Pyke a lot, but to the point of clamming false information is just stupid. You just compared the {{champion:53}} hook to {{champion:555}} hook. They are not comparable by any means, because {{champion:53}} is way better. It does not have a charge system like Pyke's hook, and it pulls the enemy much closer to you than Pyke' hook does. If there's something that I truly hate is the false usage of data or making extremly STUPID comparations do make your point valid, wich is the case of this one. I'm not defending Pyke here by any means - I do think he's overturned now - But make actually good points and good arguments for god sake, and stop being clearly bias. Also listing only the strong points of the champions - and even list that one where you said "easy to play and "outplay"" - clearly not bias at all - isn't good argumentation, because when you list only the strong points of every champion in the game, suddently they're all OP.
Lovelle (NA)
: It wouldn't fix close to everything, but it would be a good start.
Yes, also changing masteries to the old system and probably revert the changes they made to every champion because of the removal of the old runes system. I think most of the problems and frustration nowdays come from the fact that runes are extremly overloaded and overpowered. They wanted to bring diversity to the game, because the old rune system was too linear because you had one page that was the best for every champion, but the ironic thing is that the actual rune system has the exact same problem lmao. Arguably, could even be said that offers even less diversity.
: I HATE THE ONE SHOT META!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm pretty sure that just bringing back the old runes system would fix everything.
GigglesO (NA)
: The item is actually too good. ok Damage ok Defense Good CDR Still has Good Movement speed passive Good Armor pen Meanwhile Sunfire cape Ok defense Shit damage What else does sunfire give, oh right, nothing else.
It's a great item that provides ok damage for a defensive item and extremly good wave clear. If it was that bad like you suggest it wouldn't be picked by many tanks like it is. Also I am quite sure that {{item:3071}} is in it's worst state ever since it got add to the game. It's intencional users switched to {{item:3078}} and the ones using it the most atm wich are monstly AD Casters / Assassins, they build it monstly for the CDR.
YBaKunt (NA)
: Armor is extremely under powered. Lethalty is OP.
Doesn't matter how biasd you guys are, telling that lethality counters armor stackers is just the epitome of stupidity. Lethality is a flat amount of armor that is ignored wich scales by level. Telling me that someone who builds lethality can kill you with that amount of items is absurd. At level 18, {{item:3142}} + {{item:3147}} provides 18+21 lethality (39 lethality), wich ignores 39 armor, at level 18 only. Out of those items you listed, using as example: {{item:3047}} already counters half of that amount {{item:3143}} totally nullifies {{item:3742}} totally nullifies Even if you add the very situational bought {{item:3814}} one of the major items you listed would still nullifie the lethality provided by 3 complete items. And here you say that "IN YOUR GAME" you had those three items and someone who had just lethality (your title and everything suggests that) killed you. Can you at least provide a proof of that happening with a screenshot of death recap or even a small video? I would love to see that happen. And you can't call me biased in this matter, because what I just said is a fact, isn't my opinion at all.
: I hope TFT fails
You literally just said that you hope it fails because you don't like it. Name a more childish thinking than that lmao.
JuiceBoxP (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Divin1ty,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xbjw88Iu,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-08-05T17:14:09.032+0000) > Mages have superior Pen AND higher Numbers. Edited to correct my mistakes {{item:3135}} 40% pen {{item:3165}} 15 flat pen + grievous wounds {{item:3020}} 18 flat pen {{item:3071}} 24% shred - everyone gets the pen {{item:3036}} 35% pen {{item:3033}} 25% pen + grievous wounds {{item:3153}} literally does 8% current health as bonus damage, who tf needs pen? {{item:3147}} 21 lethality {{item:3814}} 18 lethality {{item:3142}} 18 lethality {{item:3124}} 15% armor+magic pen ADs stack a bunch of those, most mages get 1 or 2 tops. I fail to see the superiority of magic pen items.
Yes, but you forgot that lethality items actually scale off your level, and are not flat pen. Also, having boots as a damage option is extremly good and I think people kinda forget it. Also listing Botrk makes no sense, since it gets countered by armor. We are talking about penetration items here. Another thing is that rageblade armor pen doesn't stack with last whisper since they're unique passives with the same name. Also, it's very stupid consider that anyone actually build rageblade to counter armor or magic resist. Another thing you ignored is that altought black cleaver sounds extremly good when you say it's basicly 24% shred armor, you need to actually stack it, and there are not many champions that do actually stack it that fast. Actually, atm, most of the intended users of black cleaver did switch to trinity force and the assassins that build it, build it monstly for the 20% CDR, because the build path of black cleaver is extremly bad and until you finish the item it's just a bunch of gold wasted.
: I mean, AD assassins like Zed can kill a tank easily with LW and Leth. The issue is pen right now it so efficient you cant go wrong.
I mean, as if a standart build for Zed nowdays isn't something like {{item:3036}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3814}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3111}} Not like his entire build is to literally shred armor or anything, I am right? Imagine suceeding in actually penetrating armor after your entire build consisting of armor pen, must be insane /s But yeah, an AD Assassin isn't supposed to do that, you're right when you say that.
: Just wanted to bring attention to the Twisted Treeline removal
I mean, if the reason they're going to remove that mode is because of the low number of players that do play it, well well, what a fvcking surprise when you keep ignoring or even try to remotely balance it for the last, what? 5 years? Even more? I usually try to defend Riot on most of their decisions because most of them are actually not that braindead as the community likes to make them look like, but this one, what the actual fvck. If they had give to TT 10% of the attention they gave to TFT perhaps it would be much more popular, but fvck it I guess.
: No. No really, the game is stupid.
No, not really. The problem isn't even close to be the balance, because at the moment the meta isn't as bad as you guys make it out to be - but after all, there isn't a single season where no one complains, right? The problem is you. Yes, you and me and everybody else. The major problem right now that LoL faces is it's own community. The amount of wintraders at the moment, griefers that go unpunished and the fact that the ladder is completly fucked because of what happened when the season began, where you had Masters with 35% Win Rate or something like that. That's the big issue. It isn't Zed or Yasuo or any shit that you guys keep complaining since they have been released, and I'm so surprised to actually not see many people realise that the major problem we face is the fact that our Punishment System just sucks. If this wasn't all bad already, Riot also expects you to have a cool head and do not flame when you're extremly pissed - and you know what's ironic? The only punish system that is actually working well is the one about flamming in all chat, wich brings many situations where the guy that lost his compuster in the chat but that was actually trying to win is the one who gets punished, but not the 0/6 first time in ranked.
: Fuck Jungle
They decided to target the camps instead of the problematic champions or cheese strategies, so yeah lol
Haze97 (EUW)
: I am giving up Katarina.
https://u.gg/lol/champions/katarina/build?rank=diamond_plus I don't think Katarina is the problem . Also you can't simply compare different assassins and expect them to excel in the same aspect. Assassins are squishy champions that do a lot of damage and have no utility, but it is different the window time they have to apply the damage, if it's AoE or not or if they excel at skirmishes or teamfighting. You didn't take in consideration any of those, and even said a big fat lie when you said that > Gets negative armour on mages and many marksmen with just 2 fucking items Wich is false, because the lethality isn't a flat amount, but a scaling stat. It doesn't work like Sorc boots or Oblivion orb does. And on top of that, if we consider {{item:3142}} + {{item:3147}} they deny 39 armor but only at lv18. Most champions if they take armor runes they have at least 30 armor.
: What is Urgot's weakness
He can't scratch his legs with his litlle arms.
: 300+ consecutive games banning Zed - Heres a few things I've learned.
All of your arguments are quite terrible, but the one who stands the most out is definitely saying that Zed has no counterplay. Out of any assassin in the game I guarantee that Zed is the one who has the most counterplay. His abilities are very telegraphed, his instant snack back no longer exists, and Stopwatchs are a thing now. Plus if you want to add an exhaust on top of it you are free to go. Also that point you made that Riot is "defending Zed" by deleting posts is totally absurd - Riot after buffing Zed, decided to nerf him to a worst state than pre-buff, and they did it on the same patch they released his legendary skin. I don't want to be rude, but you show zero knowledge of the actual game, especially when you say Zed is the most unfair champion out there. In a world where Tahm Kench, Akali, Irelia and etc exists, he will never be the most unfair. Also looking at your profile stats (na.op.gg/summoner/userName=dope+solo) I don't know if Zed's the issue.
: Tank meta was the lesser of two evils
You and people that are upvoting this clearly have no idea of how tank meta really was. You guys can complain as much as you want about this meta, but not a single meta was bad as tank meta, except for ardent censor meta perhaps.
: > [{quoted}](name=iDarkWind,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=PQXy7f7m,comment-id=0057,timestamp=2019-06-15T12:30:51.984+0000) > > ..Removed by Moderation.. Your definition of Trolling is your opinion. It is not the same as my definition. Thank you.
> [{quoted}](name=Fraggleroc,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=PQXy7f7m,comment-id=00570000,timestamp=2019-06-15T12:32:51.416+0000) > > Your definition of Trolling is your opinion. It is not the same as my definition. Thank you. Good. Then you will never complain about someone going 0/15 in your games because he's just doing his "especial strategy" and unique playstyle to win the game on his way. I mean - has long he doesn't say he's trolling, he is not trolling by your definition, right? He's still trying his very best right? I find it quite hilarious that comun sense nowdays is not that comun.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: why do mages need a qss against an immobile melee champ? hahaha just what the fuck are the boards
Logic on board's? *insert meme - Sorry, we don't do that here*
Nhika (NA)
: I see Yuumi being overpowered...
What nonesense are you speaking of ? Riot has never done that at all. In fact, if you're saying that because of what happened back in season 6 or 7 (I don't remenber when exactly was the Ardent Censor meta) it was totally justified, because that item was so fkicng overturned and made bot lanes being able to 2vs8.
Naalith (NA)
: I expect the boards will be filled with large amounts of civil Qiyana discussion.
We can't really say if she will be strong or not, but so far I didn't enjoy the fact that she has hard CC in her kit even tought she is supposed to be an AD assassin.
SirEnds (NA)
: What tilts you the most?
Being 5 minutes into the game and then some moron dies and already calls "ggwp" and starts spaming ff votes at 15 minutes.
: Garen and darius both have innate armor shred / ignore and magic damage / true damage ults… Not to mention trinity synergizes amazingly with their q / w respectively (that and the attack speed helps darius stack his passive) If tanks came back into the meta or their q / w was nerfed then they would 100% go back to black cleaver. The real question is why do YOU think darius and garen switched to trinity -.- Because {{champion:238}} {{champion:91}} {{champion:266}} {{champion:121}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:80}} {{champion:141}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:62}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:21}} {{champion:421}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:240}} {{champion:14}}{{champion:59}} are all doing JUST FINE with black cleaver, even against a team full of squishies
Except that Zed and Talon were already known as BC users, and they were never the problem. BC was nerfed due to abuses by ranged champions such as {{champion:236}} and {{champion:21}} on top of the fact that back then {{item:3153}} + {{item:3071}} was becoming a problematic and popular build on many ADCs.
: > [{quoted}](name=iDarkWind,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HfP53Zqg,comment-id=0002000000010000000000000001,timestamp=2019-06-02T11:24:51.600+0000) > > No, you are using as argument a unintended bug on a champion. Lol . > > Ahm ... No it isn't? And yes it only is useful in the early game - after all you are going pretty much one shot creeps with a auto and your passive. False. The best you're getting is 2 shotting casters late game with MF. This is true regardless of how you build her. > "Manage the mark" - YOU LITERALLY SWITCH TARGETS. It doesn't have an unit cooldown to proc, why are you trying to lie here? It's called "attack speed" and "if you can't move the mark to a new target, you're screwed". Hence, MANAGE. It's also why I brought up relic users. > Ahm ... yes? It is a specific condition to be activated? And the difference is that MF doesn't have a unit cooldown and neither a condition besides attacking the enemy? And let's ignore the fact she's a meele champion, shall we? Obviously you're not paying attention so we'll disregard any of your further arguments on Love Tap. > For the same reason that for example {{champion:98}} has shitty tank stats - You have an atk speed boost as your W. But it is not like MF needs atk speed that much when in one auto she does the damage of almost two right. Again, reduced on minions and Love Tap is only 50% of her total AD early on, which translates to 25% on minions. > I mean, looking at your https://na.op.gg/summoner/champions/userName=Busty%20Demoness it clearly shows that you do not play Zed, but here we are right. > And even at MF something is off. Well, since you're not telling me what the problem is, I see no reason to include this. > And do you think that 10-15 seconds is a short time? Are you for real or are you trying to mess with me? Using a full rotation and the next thing after that you can do is literally walking into the enemies as a meele champion to auto them, isn't punish enough? Are you seriously? It's a shorter time than the delay between minion waves. So yes, pretty damn short. Especially since mana NEVER recovers that quickly. > Who exactly is talking about GA as first item? You're laning against a Zed bot lane or you're going MF mid lane? Is that so? Even then, you could rush {{item:3047}} and shit on his full item {{item:3142}} or {{item:3147}} . > And you say that you "delay your power"? > You totally nullify two full items of the enemy assassin and nullify the ability to one shot you and discourage to engage on you because you have a GA, and you still think it's a bad trade? Are you for real? You are because "it counters these items!" If it were truly the auto counter to those items, every AD laner would rush it against Zed. And yes, it is ultimately a bad trade because any Zed that sees that will simply chip you down before going all in, popping your revive, then killing you later because the revive has a 5 minute cooldown. > Except that Zed actually has an average win rate early game falls off mid game and comes back on the late game. He doesn't have that "both" that you're claiming anywhere. For his play rate and "he's supposed to be difficult", his win rate is too damn high. If he's 50% or better in ALL ranked play, he isn't that difficult to play. > Why they shouldn't? They're meele divers champions, I've got not issue with them using lethality. Not the same thing can be said about ADCs. Because they're not assassins. And it's not a tank meta just because it takes 4 seconds to kill an ADC instead of 1, not taking into account time used rushing up to them. > Did you just said that they do not suffer from the same problem because they actually know how to play it properly? Well, surprise surprise, Riot isn't going to balance solely because of certain players not actually play it properly. And yet, they are the same players who STILL will not buy GA as a first item against Zed. So where's your GA argument now?
> [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HfP53Zqg,comment-id=00020000000100000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-06-02T19:25:29.261+0000) > It's called "attack speed" and "if you can't move the mark to a new target, you're screwed". Hence, MANAGE. It's also why I brought up relic users. "Management" > Well, since you're not telling me what the problem is, I see no reason to include this. You mentioned that I do not understand how Miss Fortune works, probably because I don't player her - well, neither do you play Zed either > You are because "it counters these items!" If it were truly the auto counter to those items, every AD laner would rush it against Zed. And yes, it is ultimately a bad trade because any Zed that sees that will simply chip you down before going all in, popping your revive, then killing you later because the revive has a 5 minute cooldown. Look. I am done, stupid ass argumentation. Of course not everyone is going to grab {{item:3047}} , it doesn't change the fact it is good. And you fucking think before actually open your mouth. Do you think that Zed can simply out of no where poop your {{item:3026}} and wait 4 full seconds to kill you after? In what world? In a world where you as an ADC you're totally by yourself trying to 1vs1 a Zed? What the fk are you talking about here? You're talking about competent players or what? Of course not a single f item in the game is an auto win if you have a monkey brain, no shit sherlock there. > For his play rate and "he's supposed to be difficult", his win rate is too damn high. If he's 50% or better in ALL ranked play, he isn't that difficult to play. https://u.gg/lol/champions/zed/build 50.63% WR https://u.gg/lol/champions/zed/build?rank=diamond_plus 51.1% WR https://u.gg/lol/champions/zed/build?rank=master_plus 49.59% WR > Because they're not assassins. And it's not a tank meta just because it takes 4 seconds to kill an ADC instead of 1, not taking into account time used rushing up to them. What defines what you're isn't simply your kit. It's and has always been monstly your build, not the other way around. If they build full lethality they simply become squishy targets and their kit once offer as many options to survive dive situations. > And yet, they are the same players who STILL will not buy GA as a first item against Zed. So where's your GA argument now? Who the fk is telling you to buy GA as first item?
: I miss the days where cooldowns actually existed...
Some of those champions you listed makes no sense whatsoever. Zed always got 40% CDR, and back then he could get {{item:3153}} + Brutalizer + {{item:3071}} and {{item:3158}} and cap his CDR much earlier in the game than he does it nowdays. Zed also had less cooldown on his W and E. Once again it's a fake news OP getting upvoted by boards.
: I'm liking the direction that they're taking with sylas
Not only that, but him getting his shield only if he hits his E also increases the difficulty of the champion and offers much more counterplay and be able to trade with him.
Rylalei (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HfP53Zqg,comment-id=000200000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-01T16:18:01.228+0000) > > For saying I've spouted a lot of crap in my post, you're not exactly doing any better. > > We're going to completely disregard this because you did have a misinformed post whether you like it or not. > > No, because her E is shit damage and on a cooldown of 16 seconds early. Why? You put a point in it at level 3, maybe 4 if you want a rank 2 Q sooner. Then you don't put another point into it again until you've got nothing else to put points into. It isn't used for its damage and never will be with Miss Fortune's current incarnation. Your only uses for it are safely catching nearly dead minions, checking brush safely or giving you a tool for keeping enemies in your ultimate. There are only a couple exceptions based on runes. > > Giving her full damage to minions won't drastically improve her wave clear either because she needs to manage the mark. Zed does not need to manage shit beyond "is it under X health?" > > "I can't argue against this claim so I'm going to dismiss it and pretend you were wrong." > > It does become an issue unless you're duo queuing with someone and even then it's not perfect. And you even ignored that MF has worse base attack speed compared to other marksmen. > > Obviously you've never played Miss Fortune since you're insistent on this. After all, you're not doing anything to refute what I've said. > > Your point of "useless for a long time" might be valid if Energy regen wasn't so high you can go from 0 to full in 10-15 seconds. It's a resource, but it doesn't gate like mana does and Riot killed mana regeneration options even in runes. > > How many people made GA their first item? None? I guess that means everyone is doing it wrong then. Or perhaps it's because rushing GA puts them in a spot where they lose out on more important scaling and fall even further behind the assassin. Let's not forget that it's near impossible for champions to fall off based on how much Riot accelerated the game and shoved in damage. So your argument of "falling off" is invalid. > > And BTW, Assassins should only excel at either early or mid game, not both. If they excel at mid game, they should fall off less than those that excel early game. Those that excel early should be near useless late. But again, all of that is moot because champions don't really fall off anymore. > > And I've said for a long time that Lethality items were a mistake in part because they were still abused by marksmen and other champions not meant to use them in the first place. Duskblade is still too strong because it gives a free sweeper (thus, you don't need to swap out warding trinket) and mostly free burst for simply autoing someone within 5 seconds of becoming visible. Youmuu's is in a spot where it enables assassin-style gameplay for a lot of champions who simply shouldn't be doing it, such as J4 and Wukong. > > Does this mean said problems exist in higher elo or the pro scene? No. But that's because they have different problems as a result of being better coordinated teams in addition to a much smaller population. There's also the fact most assassins are outclassed in top level play. Oh, and let's not forget, Lethality was Riot's attempt at making assassins viable at that level. There's a reason it failed and there's a reason those items remain problematic even after all of the changes. Zed has a 52% win rate in Masters+. He "sure is weak" in higher elos, he's so "weak" that leagueofgraphs doesn't have a negative winrate on him, at any rank. This is what I hate about Zed mains, their champ is too good for his skill level, yet they still call him weak. Look, if Zed would be advertised as a low-medium skill level champ, that would raise other issues, but his win rates would be understandable, but for a "high skill champ that's so weak that he gets countered by 1 item" he wins a tad too much.
> [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HfP53Zqg,comment-id=0002000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-01T17:47:24.432+0000) > > Zed has a 52% win rate in Masters+. > > He "sure is weak" in higher elos, he's so "weak" that leagueofgraphs doesn't have a negative winrate on him, at any rank. > > This is what I hate about Zed mains, their champ is too good for his skill level, yet they still call him weak. Look, if Zed would be advertised as a low-medium skill level champ, that would raise other issues, but his win rates would be understandable, but for a "high skill champ that's so weak that he gets countered by 1 item" he wins a tad too much. Then abuse him to get out of Silver and actually get a positive win rate then .
: For saying I've spouted a lot of crap in my post, you're not exactly doing any better. > [{quoted}](name=iDarkWind,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HfP53Zqg,comment-id=00020000000100000000,timestamp=2019-06-01T09:05:26.151+0000) > > How much crap can someone say in only one comment? > You didn't answear any of my arguments. You didn't contra argument any shit. You comapred two passives and now you're just ignoring everything I said and comparing Kits, alright, you sure you wanna do that? We're going to completely disregard this because you did have a misinformed post whether you like it or not. > It was a justification why it doesn't do full damage to minions. It wasn't meant as a argument to compare the last hitting capabilities. I tought it was very obvious from the beguinning, guess not. If it didn't do reduce damage to minions, MF early game waveclear would be too good with her E and her passive, don't you think? No, because her E is shit damage and on a cooldown of 16 seconds early. Why? You put a point in it at level 3, maybe 4 if you want a rank 2 Q sooner. Then you don't put another point into it again until you've got nothing else to put points into. It isn't used for its damage and never will be with Miss Fortune's current incarnation. Your only uses for it are safely catching nearly dead minions, checking brush safely or giving you a tool for keeping enemies in your ultimate. There are only a couple exceptions based on runes. Giving her full damage to minions won't drastically improve her wave clear either because she needs to manage the mark. Zed does not need to manage shit beyond "is it under X health?" > What the hell are you talking about? I can't even argue such stupid claim. You're now telling me that Love Tap brings lack of coordination between teammates and that is is a weakness? What the hell dude? > And using bugs and coding issues as a argument? Are you for real? LOL "I can't argue against this claim so I'm going to dismiss it and pretend you were wrong." It does become an issue unless you're duo queuing with someone and even then it's not perfect. And you even ignored that MF has worse base attack speed compared to other marksmen. > Yes it is. Obviously you've never played Miss Fortune since you're insistent on this. After all, you're not doing anything to refute what I've said. > And why do you think that happens? First off, his level 1 and 2 are very mediocre. His early game is all about last hitting the minions with his abilities and try to conserve as much health as he can until level 3. It's true that not having mana is very good in the early game, but guess what? Energy isn't the idealistic resource that boards think it is. You run out of energy you're pretty much useless for a long time. Mana management happens during only the laning phase. After that, mana always outscales energy. > But once again, you're talking now about the champions resources, because you noticed the first post you made was a terrible comparasion. Your point of "useless for a long time" might be valid if Energy regen wasn't so high you can go from 0 to full in 10-15 seconds. It's a resource, but it doesn't gate like mana does and Riot killed mana regeneration options even in runes. > "Nobody can rush defensive items" - Don't make me laugh. > The lethality provided by {{item:3142}} + {{item:3147}} is something around 39 lethality. By level 18 with this two items Zed ignores 38 armor or squishy champions. Have you noticed something? {{item:3047}} reduces the lethality provided by two full items by half, {{item:3026}} totally nullifies the lethality provided, because it gives 40 armor, and on top of that you even have {{item:3046}} if you want to get a fat shield when you're low. > The itemazation of AD assassins is terrible. They were designed as champions that would dominate early and mid game and fall off in the team fights, but in reality their most important stat is a scaling stat that is very easly counter. > If Zed's finish a {{item:3142}} only at level 13 +/- the lethality provided by this item wouldn't be countered by a single {{item:1029}} . > Get your facts right. How many people made GA their first item? None? I guess that means everyone is doing it wrong then. Or perhaps it's because rushing GA puts them in a spot where they lose out on more important scaling and fall even further behind the assassin. Let's not forget that it's near impossible for champions to fall off based on how much Riot accelerated the game and shoved in damage. So your argument of "falling off" is invalid. And BTW, Assassins should only excel at either early or mid game, not both. If they excel at mid game, they should fall off less than those that excel early game. Those that excel early should be near useless late. But again, all of that is moot because champions don't really fall off anymore. > Plus, isn't ironic that items such as {{item:3142}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3071}} that you're complaining about got actually nerfed because of ADCs like {{champion:21}} {{champion:236}} ? > Why did you argument that {{item:3142}} and {{item:3147}} are broken and Zed's build them both? Far as I know {{champion:21}} does it too? LOL And I've said for a long time that Lethality items were a mistake in part because they were still abused by marksmen and other champions not meant to use them in the first place. Duskblade is still too strong because it gives a free sweeper (thus, you don't need to swap out warding trinket) and mostly free burst for simply autoing someone within 5 seconds of becoming visible. Youmuu's is in a spot where it enables assassin-style gameplay for a lot of champions who simply shouldn't be doing it, such as J4 and Wukong. Does this mean said problems exist in higher elo or the pro scene? No. But that's because they have different problems as a result of being better coordinated teams in addition to a much smaller population. There's also the fact most assassins are outclassed in top level play. Oh, and let's not forget, Lethality was Riot's attempt at making assassins viable at that level. There's a reason it failed and there's a reason those items remain problematic even after all of the changes.
> [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HfP53Zqg,comment-id=000200000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-01T16:18:01.228+0000) > > We're going to completely disregard this because you did have a misinformed post whether you like it or not. No, you are using as argument a unintended bug on a champion. Lol . > No, because her E is shit damage and on a cooldown of 16 seconds early. Why? You put a point in it at level 3, maybe 4 if you want a rank 2 Q sooner. Then you don't put another point into it again until you've got nothing else to put points into. It isn't used for its damage and never will be with Miss Fortune's current incarnation. Your only uses for it are safely catching nearly dead minions, checking brush safely or giving you a tool for keeping enemies in your ultimate. There are only a couple exceptions based on runes. Ahm ... No it isn't? And yes it only is useful in the early game - after all you are going pretty much one shot creeps with a auto and your passive. > Giving her full damage to minions won't drastically improve her wave clear either because she needs to manage the mark. "Manage the mark" - YOU LITERALLY SWITCH TARGETS. It doesn't have an unit cooldown to proc, why are you trying to lie here? > Zed does not need to manage shit beyond "is it under X health?" Ahm ... yes? It is a specific condition to be activated? And the difference is that MF doesn't have a unit cooldown and neither a condition besides attacking the enemy? And let's ignore the fact she's a meele champion, shall we? > It does become an issue unless you're duo queuing with someone and even then it's not perfect. And you even ignored that MF has worse base attack speed compared to other marksmen. For the same reason that for example {{champion:98}} has shitty tank stats - You have an atk speed boost as your W. But it is not like MF needs atk speed that much when in one auto she does the damage of almost two right. > Obviously you've never played Miss Fortune since you're insistent on this. After all, you're not doing anything to refute what I've said. I mean, looking at your https://na.op.gg/summoner/champions/userName=Busty%20Demoness it clearly shows that you do not play Zed, but here we are right. And even at MF something is off. > Your point of "useless for a long time" might be valid if Energy regen wasn't so high you can go from 0 to full in 10-15 seconds. It's a resource, but it doesn't gate like mana does and Riot killed mana regeneration options even in runes. And do you think that 10-15 seconds is a short time? Are you for real or are you trying to mess with me? Using a full rotation and the next thing after that you can do is literally walking into the enemies as a meele champion to auto them, isn't punish enough? Are you seriously? > How many people made GA their first item? None? I guess that means everyone is doing it wrong then. Or perhaps it's because rushing GA puts them in a spot where they lose out on more important scaling and fall even further behind the assassin. Let's not forget that it's near impossible for champions to fall off based on how much Riot accelerated the game and shoved in damage. So your argument of "falling off" is invalid. Who exactly is talking about GA as first item? You're laning against a Zed bot lane or you're going MF mid lane? Is that so? Even then, you could rush {{item:3047}} and shit on his full item {{item:3142}} or {{item:3147}} . And you say that you "delay your power"? You totally nullify two full items of the enemy assassin and nullify the ability to one shot you and discourage to engage on you because you have a GA, and you still think it's a bad trade? Are you for real? > And BTW, Assassins should only excel at either early or mid game, not both. If they excel at mid game, they should fall off less than those that excel early game. Those that excel early should be near useless late. But again, all of that is moot because champions don't really fall off anymore. Except that Zed actually has an average win rate early game falls off mid game and comes back on the late game. He doesn't have that "both" that you're claiming anywhere. > And I've said for a long time that Lethality items were a mistake in part because they were still abused by marksmen and other champions not meant to use them in the first place. Duskblade is still too strong because it gives a free sweeper (thus, you don't need to swap out warding trinket) and mostly free burst for simply autoing someone within 5 seconds of becoming visible. Youmuu's is in a spot where it enables assassin-style gameplay for a lot of champions who simply shouldn't be doing it, such as J4 and Wukong. Why they shouldn't? They're meele divers champions, I've got not issue with them using lethality. Not the same thing can be said about ADCs. > Does this mean said problems exist in higher elo or the pro scene? No. But that's because they have different problems as a result of being better coordinated teams in addition to a much smaller population. There's also the fact most assassins are outclassed in top level play. Oh, and let's not forget, Lethality was Riot's attempt at making assassins viable at that level. There's a reason it failed and there's a reason those items remain problematic even after all of the changes. Did you just said that they do not suffer from the same problem because they actually know how to play it properly? Well, surprise surprise, Riot isn't going to balance solely because of certain players not actually play it properly.
Rylalei (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=iDarkWind,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HfP53Zqg,comment-id=0002000200010000,timestamp=2019-06-01T12:13:01.475+0000) > > What a trash comparasion tough. Tell me any other mid laner meele that suffers from the same problem as Zed, wich is the fact his trade tool has a very high cooldown and his level 1 and 2 are very weak. > > {{champion:84}} is one of the strongest champions at level 1 > {{champion:157}} also has no problem farming due to his E and Q > {{champion:91}} has one of the strongest level 2 and his Q is on short cooldown and when last hit minions he receives health > {{champion:517}} Sylas is a lane bully, and altought he doesn't have an "easy" last hit he has a really good waveclear > > What else? Not a single champion in the mid lane that is a meele champion actually suffers from last hitting because in order to them to survive the early game vs ranged champions that they usually face they need to have those tools or actually beat them right at the beguinning. > If you want to count {{champion:39}} as a meele mid laner, even her has a last hit tool. > > Even when Zed is at a perfect 50% Win Rate you cry on boards for nerfs for some reason. Time to think that perhaps the problem isn't Zed. > Also, if you don't know, if you keep farming by using your abilities as an energy based champion, it means you won't be able to trade in a big window. If your opponents knows what's doing he just uses it to zone you off or make a good trade because you can't trade back. Oh, I'm sorry, I guess I missed the update that said "high skill champs with high playrate are balanced when at 50%". Let's see: Akali - 4.9% play rate, 43.1% win rate Yasuo - 8.4% win rate, 47.2% win rate Talon - 5.8% play rate, 55% win rate Sylas - 18.3% play rate, 49.6% win rate Irelia - 10.2% play rate, 47.6% win rate And finally Zed - 7.8% play rate, 51.9% win rate All the stats above are leagueofgraphs.com for the mid lane for Masters+. Talon is an early game God and everyone knows that, and when teams can take advantage of that early game power, he wins a lot, ok, it's understandable, no-one complains about it. Talon in Bronze has a 49.7% win rate. Plus he's not mechanically intensive, he requires a lot of macro play. Sylas is considered very strong once mastered so him having the stats he has is again understandable and he's getting nerfed next patch. Zed? At how "weak" every Zed main on the boards makes him be, you wouldn't expect a 52% win rate in M+ At that play rate. There's no elo where Zed has a negative win rate and it's always a respectable pick rate. Zed in Bronze has a 50% win rate at 13.1% play rate. Gee, I wonder how come such "complex champions as Zed" have so good stats, too good actually for their difficulty. When Riven and Vayne were top dogs, before the nerfs, everyone agreed that high skill champs shouldn't have positive win rates because by design they should be hard to play, yet no matter at what rank I check, Zed doesn't have a negative win rate, heck, that 50% in Bronze is the lowest win rate he has. Even the worst players in the game have a positive win rate on Zed, who I say for the Xth time, is considered a mechanically intensive champion that is weak. Weak is the exact opposite of "no negative win rate". But hey, maybe the higher ranks need to learn to play, I mean, Zed's win rate only goes up with ranks, and at how weak you call him, he should only win against bad players.
> [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HfP53Zqg,comment-id=00020002000100000000,timestamp=2019-06-01T17:36:03.666+0000) > > Oh, I'm sorry, I guess I missed the update that said "high skill champs with high playrate are balanced when at 50%". > > Let's see: > > Akali - 4.9% play rate, 43.1% win rate > Yasuo - 8.4% win rate, 47.2% win rate > Talon - 5.8% play rate, 55% win rate > Sylas - 18.3% play rate, 49.6% win rate > Irelia - 10.2% play rate, 47.6% win rate > > And finally > > Zed - 7.8% play rate, 51.9% win rate > > All the stats above are leagueofgraphs.com for the mid lane for Masters+. First, let's start by not considering high elo only Masters +. Reason? The samples are very small. Some win rates will be off the mark because some are can be innacurate because of the 3 or 4 one tricks there. Let's use instead Diamond + data. Akali - 8.3% Pick Rate 45.1% Win Rate 28.8% Ban Rate Yasuo - 14.8% Pick Rate 46.8% Win Rate 42.7% Ban Rate Talon - 5.6% Pick Rate 52.7% Win Rate 5.9% Ban Rate Sylas - 24.7% Pick Rate 49.3% Win Rate 33% Ban Rate Irelia - 19.6% Pick Rate 48.1% Win Rate 24.8% Ban Rate Zed - 10.5% Pick Rate 51.1% Win Rate 39.7% Ban Rate Now moving to the next points. > Talon is an early game God and everyone knows that, and when teams can take advantage of that early game power, he wins a lot, ok, it's understandable, no-one complains about it. Talon in Bronze has a 49.7% win rate. Plus he's not mechanically intensive, he requires a lot of macro play. Agreed. > Sylas is considered very strong once mastered so him having the stats he has is again understandable and he's getting nerfed next patch. Not nerfed, but changed to a more DPS style and Sustain, but moving on - Sylas has almsot 25% Pick Rate with a 33% Ban Rate. The solo reason his Win Rate isn't actually good is because he's constantly played by players that do not compreend him interaly. I'll elaborate this later on. > Zed? At how "weak" every Zed main on the boards makes him be, you wouldn't expect a 52% win rate in M+ At that play rate. There's no elo where Zed has a negative win rate and it's always a respectable pick rate. Zed in Bronze has a 50% win rate at 13.1% play rate. Gee, I wonder how come such "complex champions as Zed" have so good stats, too good actually for their difficulty. Don't use Bronze as a metric. {{champion:238}} performs well as any other AD Assassin or Assassin in general in those ranks, because even if they're a {{champion:99}} vs {{champion:238}} they would probably still take {{summoner:14}} and rush {{item:3285}} . With that said, Zed isn't a go-to to anyone in higher elos. It's only played by people that like assassins and monstly one tricks. There are many champions that have a said "good" win rate in higher elos due to dedicated fanbases of that said champion. In Zed's case it isn't different. If you think I'm being biased here, you just literally have to look at famous players you know on mid lane. Aside from a famous players known by his Zed (LLStylish) you have never see anyone in higher elos playing Zed or complaining about him. Yet, you see much frequent such things as {{champion:39}} {{champion:517}} and now not so much, but some {{champion:84}} being played by most of them. Why? The reason is very simple: They're flat out better champions. In order to achieve the same results as Zed you have to actually punt much more effort. If once again you think I'm being biased, you literally just have to watch any high elo streamer and notice that those champions I said are played much more frequently. Yassuo not so long ago said that in his opinion {{champion:84}} is the most broken champion in the game. Why tough? Statistic speaking she's isnt that good, yet when you actually watch good players playing her you notice how much broken she actually is. I mean, if that isn't enough as a argument (since I can't prove you this without you actually checking by yourself various streamers outhere) If Zed is that Broken why he isn't that popular in LCS? Far as I remenber, the last Zed I watched on LCS went 1-6, meanwhile Akali has been a constested pick far as I know and Irelia is popular too. Ryze is also known for being very strong, yet he maintains such poor Win Rate. Soo ... statistics do not show all the truth? Yes, it seems so. > When Riven and Vayne were top dogs, before the nerfs, everyone agreed that high skill champs shouldn't have positive win rates because by design they should be hard to play, yet no matter at what rank I check, Zed doesn't have a negative win rate, heck, that 50% in Bronze is the lowest win rate he has. Even the worst players in the game have a positive win rate on Zed, who I say for the Xth time, is considered a mechanically intensive champion that is weak. First: "Don't use Bronze as a metric. {{champion:238}} performs well as any other AD Assassin or Assassin in general in those ranks, because even if they're a {{champion:99}} vs {{champion:238}} they would probably still take {{summoner:14}} and rush {{item:3285}} ." This applies to any lower ranks since it happens very often. People do not know how to build against lethality users. Second, I am not going to check rank by rank the stats, but you said that Zed maintains an Win Rate above 50% in every single rank.... You're lying. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/zed/iron Iron + stats show that he has a perfect 50% win rate when taking everysingle rank of the game. Wich means, that your argumentation that his worst win rate is 50% in bronze is a total lie. Reason? If his worst was only 50% I can assure you that his overall win rate in all ranks wouldn't be also 50%. That's not how average metric works. > Weak is the exact opposite of "no negative win rate". Yes, but lying about data is also the exact opposite of good argumentation. > But hey, maybe the higher ranks need to learn to play, I mean, Zed's win rate only goes up with ranks, and at how weak you call him, he should only win against bad players. Yeah. I mean, I can only agree after all his LCS appearences really prove that, or how in Synapse videos you just watch Zed outplays all day wich are basicly him braindead killing people in 1vs3 or even 1vs5 situations. In the end of the day the ones showcasing to be more broken definitely are not Akali or Irelia, so it makes perfect sense.
Rylalei (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HfP53Zqg,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2019-05-31T23:26:35.528+0000) > > Because he is fcking melee and would just be bullied out of lane because he would have nothing else too keep up with farm else? Zed's not the only melee laner in the game and has energy not mana, so use Q? Low cool down and the E/s recharge gives him almost all his energy back during the cool down. There's a difference between "keeping up with farm" and "last hit assistant". If you miss last hits with any other champ, you need to improve your last hitting a bit but if you miss with Zed, just uninstall. But you may be right, let's give that passive to all melee champs in the game since they are melee and need it to keep up with farm. When all will have it, you'll see how bs it is, but if you think it's not bull, then I see no point in them not having it.
> [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HfP53Zqg,comment-id=000200020001,timestamp=2019-06-01T10:19:30.668+0000) > > Zed's not the only melee laner in the game and has energy not mana, so use Q? Low cool down and the E/s recharge gives him almost all his energy back during the cool down. > > There's a difference between "keeping up with farm" and "last hit assistant". If you miss last hits with any other champ, you need to improve your last hitting a bit but if you miss with Zed, just uninstall. > > But you may be right, let's give that passive to all melee champs in the game since they are melee and need it to keep up with farm. When all will have it, you'll see how bs it is, but if you think it's not bull, then I see no point in them not having it. What a trash comparasion tough. Tell me any other mid laner meele that suffers from the same problem as Zed, wich is the fact his trade tool has a very high cooldown and his level 1 and 2 are very weak. {{champion:84}} is one of the strongest champions at level 1 {{champion:157}} also has no problem farming due to his E and Q {{champion:91}} has one of the strongest level 2 and his Q is on short cooldown and when last hit minions he receives health {{champion:517}} Sylas is a lane bully, and altought he doesn't have an "easy" last hit he has a really good waveclear What else? Not a single champion in the mid lane that is a meele champion actually suffers from last hitting because in order to them to survive the early game vs ranged champions that they usually face they need to have those tools or actually beat them right at the beguinning. If you want to count {{champion:39}} as a meele mid laner, even her has a last hit tool. Even when Zed is at a perfect 50% Win Rate you cry on boards for nerfs for some reason. Time to think that perhaps the problem isn't Zed. Also, if you don't know, if you keep farming by using your abilities as an energy based champion, it means you won't be able to trade in a big window. If your opponents knows what's doing he just uses it to zone you off or make a good trade because you can't trade back.
Crede777 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HfP53Zqg,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2019-05-31T23:26:35.528+0000) > > Because he is fcking melee and would just be bullied out of lane because he would have nothing else too keep up with farm else? Yeah that's the idea. Make him actually be weak pre-6.
> [{quoted}](name=Crede777,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HfP53Zqg,comment-id=000200020000,timestamp=2019-06-01T01:52:52.235+0000) > > Yeah that's the idea. Make him actually be weak pre-6. More than he is already with his 22 seconds cooldown shadow? You guys must be really terrible at this game to get stomped that hard idk
: > [{quoted}](name=iDarkWind,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HfP53Zqg,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2019-05-31T20:16:43.719+0000) > > Yes, let's compare an empowered auto that deal almost double damage in a range champion to the condicional Zed's passive that deals damage only when below 50% and he is also meele. > If we ignore all those important factors and the fact that Zed monstly lanes vs range champions with his only trade tool being on a 22 seconds cooldown, yes, if we ignore all of that, your argument is valid. > > Let's also ignore that her passive refresh's upon switching targets, wich, in other words, makes her with a really good waveclear. "Zed's only trade tool is on a 22 second cooldown" "Zed is melee" "Zed only gets the bonus on enemies below 50% hp" We can disregard the last one because the whole point is describing these as last hitting tools. Zed's more than capable of poking with Q without needing his shadow up. It's simply more risky. Zed being melee already grants him higher base movement, base damage and base defenses compared to ranged champions, so that's not much of a weakness. Secondly, have you tried clearing a wave quickly with Love Tap? It's not as simple as simply attacking another minion and this is ESPECIALLY true when paired with a relic support. The Relic user won't see your love tap mark and it's entirely possible they'll take a different minion, resulting in using only your total AD because you can't use Love Tap on a marked target. This isn't factoring in the fact MF's auto speed is lower compared to most Marksmen and that means missing a love tap mark can cause quite a bit of missed CS. Not to mention she has coding issues where her autos will freeze up if the cancel happens at the wrong time and that can mean a LOT of missed CS. Oh, one more thing, Zed doesn't have the same resource management issues as MF does because he runs on energy while she runs on mana. His wave clear with Q is still solid paired with his passive and Miss Fortune simply does not have that same luxury with her E being a 15+ second cooldown and doing terrible damage. We haven't even gotten to items and how Zed is balanced around Duskblade/Youmuu's, both of which grant him the ability to outright ignore armor on most squishy targets because almost nobody can afford to rush defensive items. Not even tanks rush fully defensive items anymore because Riot chose to balance everything on doing tons of damage.
How much crap can someone say in only one comment? You didn't answear any of my arguments. You didn't contra argument any shit. You comapred two passives and now you're just ignoring everything I said and comparing Kits, alright, you sure you wanna do that? > We can disregard the last one because the whole point is describing these as last hitting tools. > Zed's more than capable of poking with Q without needing his shadow up. It's simply more risky. > Zed being melee already grants him higher base movement, base damage and base defenses compared to ranged champions, so that's not much of a weakness. It was a justification why it doesn't do full damage to minions. It wasn't meant as a argument to compare the last hitting capabilities. I tought it was very obvious from the beguinning, guess not. If it didn't do reduce damage to minions, MF early game waveclear would be too good with her E and her passive, don't you think? > Secondly, have you tried clearing a wave quickly with Love Tap? It's not as simple as simply attacking another minion and this is ESPECIALLY true when paired with a relic support. The Relic user won't see your love tap mark and it's entirely possible they'll take a different minion, resulting in using only your total AD because you can't use Love Tap on a marked target. This isn't factoring in the fact MF's auto speed is lower compared to most Marksmen and that means missing a love tap mark can cause quite a bit of missed CS. Not to mention she has coding issues where her autos will freeze up if the cancel happens at the wrong time and that can mean a LOT of missed CS. What the hell are you talking about? I can't even argue such stupid claim. You're now telling me that Love Tap brings lack of coordination between teammates and that is is a weakness? What the hell dude? And using bugs and coding issues as a argument? Are you for real? LOL > Secondly, have you tried clearing a wave quickly with Love Tap? It's not as simple as simply attacking another minion Yes it is. > Oh, one more thing, Zed doesn't have the same resource management issues as MF does because he runs on energy while she runs on mana. His wave clear with Q is still solid paired with his passive and Miss Fortune simply does not have that same luxury with her E being a 15+ second cooldown and doing terrible damage. And why do you think that happens? First off, his level 1 and 2 are very mediocre. His early game is all about last hitting the minions with his abilities and try to conserve as much health as he can until level 3. It's true that not having mana is very good in the early game, but guess what? Energy isn't the idealistic resource that boards think it is. You run out of energy you're pretty much useless for a long time. Mana management happens during only the laning phase. After that, mana always outscales energy. But once again, you're talking now about the champions resources, because you noticed the first post you made was a terrible comparasion. > We haven't even gotten to items and how Zed is balanced around Duskblade/Youmuu's, both of which grant him the ability to outright ignore armor on most squishy targets because almost nobody can afford to rush defensive items. Not even tanks rush fully defensive items anymore because Riot chose to balance everything on doing tons of damage. "Nobody can rush defensive items" - Don't make me laugh. The lethality provided by {{item:3142}} + {{item:3147}} is something around 39 lethality. By level 18 with this two items Zed ignores 38 armor or squishy champions. Have you noticed something? {{item:3047}} reduces the lethality provided by two full items by half, {{item:3026}} totally nullifies the lethality provided, because it gives 40 armor, and on top of that you even have {{item:3046}} if you want to get a fat shield when you're low. The itemazation of AD assassins is terrible. They were designed as champions that would dominate early and mid game and fall off in the team fights, but in reality their most important stat is a scaling stat that is very easly counter. If Zed's finish a {{item:3142}} only at level 13 +/- the lethality provided by this item wouldn't be countered by a single {{item:1029}} . Get your facts right. Plus, isn't ironic that items such as {{item:3142}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3071}} that you're complaining about got actually nerfed because of ADCs like {{champion:21}} {{champion:236}} ? Why did you argument that {{item:3142}} and {{item:3147}} are broken and Zed's build them both? Far as I know {{champion:21}} does it too? LOL
: > [{quoted}](name=Rylalei,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HfP53Zqg,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-05-31T17:41:34.785+0000) > > The only thing I hate about Zed is his stupid passive working on creeps. > > "hey, out of 144 champs, 143 needs to actually prepare minions for last hit under tower because they can't 1 auto kill them, but Zed can". > > People just don't understand how much of an advantage that is. "Just harass him", well, he takes less harass when going for those creeps because he doesn't need to prep the lane, just last hits it. It's almost 30 free damage level one vs melee creeps and 20 vs casters, it's just too much free stat for doing nothing. > > Now, can other champs 1 hit kill a caster with 1 auto after 1 tower shot? Sure, there are champs that can, but unlike Zed, they need to prep it. Fizz is the only one with a similar thing and he needs to at least time a button press correctly that's not right click (don't get me wrong, both abilities need to go away from working on creeps, but if Fizz's is "easy mode" then Zed's "I can't last hit, can you do it for me?") > > Remove that and Zed will be in a much better spot for 3 reasons: > - People who can't last hit won't get as much gold > - You have more room to punish him as he will spend more time near the creeps or lose more cs if he doesn't want to get punished > - Lower gold generation lowers his item spikes timing allowing people more time before he R - E - AA - Ignite kills them. > > He's supposed to be a "mechanically intense" champion, so why does he need a last hit assistant? Not even MF's Love Tap ability is enough of an assist on its own to last hit under turret. Oh, wait, it would be but it deals half damage to minions. If it did full damage to minions she would have no trouble last hitting everything under turret just like Zed. Honestly, probably the only reason it's not full damage is to keep her safety even lower compared to the more popular ADC like Kai'Sa, Lucian and Ezreal. There may still be a factor of having easier to land Q criticals (because it's a higher threshold for killing the initial minion with Q) but that's just as avoidable with the normal counter play.
> [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HfP53Zqg,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-05-31T18:03:52.464+0000) > > Not even MF's Love Tap ability is enough of an assist on its own to last hit under turret. Oh, wait, it would be but it deals half damage to minions. If it did full damage to minions she would have no trouble last hitting everything under turret just like Zed. > > Honestly, probably the only reason it's not full damage is to keep her safety even lower compared to the more popular ADC like Kai'Sa, Lucian and Ezreal. There may still be a factor of having easier to land Q criticals (because it's a higher threshold for killing the initial minion with Q) but that's just as avoidable with the normal counter play. Yes, let's compare an empowered auto that deal almost double damage in a range champion to the condicional Zed's passive that deals damage only when below 50% and he is also meele. If we ignore all those important factors and the fact that Zed monstly lanes vs range champions with his only trade tool being on a 22 seconds cooldown, yes, if we ignore all of that, your argument is valid. Let's also ignore that her passive refresh's upon switching targets, wich, in other words, makes her with a really good waveclear.
: It got nerfed because it was really good against Zed.
It wasn't LOL Exhaust reduces your damage by 40% during 2.5 seconds. It counters Zed because Zed can't just use his ultimate on you and stack the damage after. If he does that, you just exhaust him and during 2.5 seconds out of the 3 seconds window he has he has his damage reduced by 40%. If it was because of Zed, they wouldn't remove the reducing target's attack speed and resistances.
: > [{quoted}](name=OtterlyLost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AnG6sTRn,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-05-31T11:42:16.940+0000) > > I forgot about the QSS thing. :( I miss being able to do anything about assassins myself as the ADC... Same. Why have counterplay when you can have lc$ b1g plys?
Yeah, like nowdays assassin don't have bigger burst windows and items such as {{item:2420}} and the new {{item:3026}} that gives AD instead of MR aren't much better than older days right? Not also like {{item:3046}} gives a huge fat shield right? Desilusionals. 'Good old days' - In the 'good old days' assassins were better and actually played in LCS, I don't know what you both are talking about.
nelogis (EUW)
: You're.... you're giving more damage to Flask and reducing it's lane sustain?
You're desilusional if you don't think that {{item:2033}} + {{item:1082}} is simply broken. The sustain and damage it brings to the table at such cheap price is ridiculous.
: Can you disable Zed in Summoner's too?
xAcidik (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=iDarkWind,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tbwxVkgU,comment-id=002000010000,timestamp=2019-05-29T09:54:16.198+0000) > > It doesn't matter how the argument is said. I may have been ironic or rude or whatever, it is a valid argument that makes total sense and anyone that actually play the game can agree. > You guys just get dived by x champion get mad and think that buffing towers would fix any problem, without thinking on the actual overall impact in the game that it does. > If you want to be taken serious, start a discussion with actual arguments and proof of what you're proclaiming and not flat out say in 2 lines that we should buff everything about towers because "uNdEr ToWeR sHoUlD bE sAfE" - yeah, it is already a good safe zone, it doesn't need to be another base-fountain-like zone. XD but where's your proof? I got the idea from Lohpally, a Challenger AND ex-pro player. Thereby, your rank argument is debunked but continue to think you're the most intelligent person in this conversation because of your rank... Lol. Oh but it seems I was taken pretty seriously? Judging by up votes and comments... Rip ur mental boom.
Taken seriously on this board full of people like you that have no knowledge of what they're saying at all? It's pretty low for a stupid suggestion standart. Yes and the f* rank matters here either you like it or not. And my arguments? Are logical thinking. By decreasing the range of every lane you'll just make mid lane impossible to play as a meele champion and range champions would take over league. With such protective towers there would be not point to not pick an ADC or Mage and safe farm under tower and scale. Lane bullies wouldn't be able to do anything at all, and there wouldn't be a point in picking them in first place. Did you tough in any of that? Probably not. You only tough in a way to protect yourself from someone diving you (probably after smashing you in lane because you played it awfully) and only tough about only one way to save you from that exact cenario, without actually realizing of the consequences of what you just said.
xAcidik (NA)
: I think you have all perfectly de-legitimized your arguments by the attitude that you took with one another, please don't continue to argue here. I'd like this topic to be taken seriously.
It doesn't matter how the argument is said. I may have been ironic or rude or whatever, it is a valid argument that makes total sense and anyone that actually play the game can agree. You guys just get dived by x champion get mad and think that buffing towers would fix any problem, without thinking on the actual overall impact in the game that it does. If you want to be taken serious, start a discussion with actual arguments and proof of what you're proclaiming and not flat out say in 2 lines that we should buff everything about towers because "uNdEr ToWeR sHoUlD bE sAfE" - yeah, it is already a good safe zone, it doesn't need to be another base-fountain-like zone.
: Solo lane Pyke needs a nerf
Nerfing his damage to minions on his Q would probably fix him.
: > [{quoted}](name=DuskDaUmbreon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V6MzeMOi,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-05-28T04:14:15.726+0000) > > Maybe, but is the nerf really needed? If nobody seems to mind this champion being strong...Does it even matter if the champ is OP or not? As long as it's kept outside of being gamebreakingly strong, it'd seem fine to me. > > A nerf would be fine, but is also probably unnecessary. I don't mind a strong ADC without a dash/invis/both for a change. You pick any assassin, you can fairly easy oneshot her. You pick GP and crit her Ass, she will die. I take Jinx over Vayne/Kai'Sa/for some points Ezreal BS anyday.
Except she can take {{item:3046}} + {{item:3026}} and remove that weakness in exchange for some damage. Perhaps in lower ranks people always go full AD crit even against assassins, but in higher elos she builds those two items, becomes very tanky and then you have a ranged tanky champion dealing AoE crits and getting massive movement speed and atk speed from the resets on her passive.
: yeah all the other mages i know of needs items
Nah, this guy has to be messing with me. I'm out.
: Or if you want to face tank his ult{{summoner:3}} replace flash. If you say nope that don't work then that means it's obviously op. 2 summa plus boneplating armguard should Allow survival of his ult.
Never replace flash by anything. Exhaust is only good if you time it properly and react to Zed before he does his combo. I didn't suggest it tough because we're clearly not talking about skilled players here that actually know how to play the game and use it well, otherwise there wouldn't be a thread complaining about Zed, once again, when every high elo player tells you that he isn't overpowered. Even timing the barrier to the death mark pop can be hard. The only thing this players are good at is downvoting without any contra argument.
: by any mage u mean malzahar the only mage that can mindlessly wave clear with just little ap
Yeah. The only mage in the game that has actually good waveclear is Malzahar. /s My bad, I only played against High Diamond and Master players, so of course I've got no idea of what I am talking about.
xAcidik (NA)
: Buff Towers
Yeah, why not. So that players that are terrible can actually climb by simply picking any mage and mindless waveclearing from a safe distance and scale into late game. Fantastic idea. Oh wait, it already happens.
: I found out how to deal with Zed
Or simply take as summoner spell this thing here {{summoner:21}} and rush a {{item:3191}} as first item. After that, you don't need to finish {{item:3157}} but instead you can rush your mana item, wich usually is {{item:3285}} . If you want too, you can take the free {{item:2419}} from runes. Zed won't be able to kill you unless you make too many mistakes. The items do not have brain to play for the players, neither any build grants an auto win, but this strat is very strong because of how lethality as a stat works.
SP00NS (NA)
: Why is Lee sin in every single meta?
He isn't. It's just that he has a big and dedicted player base and you see a Lee Sin quite often. It doesn't mean that he's meta tough.
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iDarkWind

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