: > [{quoted}](name=iDarkWind,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vh6WrATY,comment-id=003100010001,timestamp=2019-12-09T10:06:49.569+0000) > > You talk as if he needed to land his Q and E and like it was extremly hard to perform. It wasn't, and neither it was fundamental to suceed on him. > He didn't offer any counterplay because he was a Drain Tank Auto Attacker that could heal off minions too. If he somehow could win the trades while on top of that sustain of creeps, then yes, he literally had no counterplay whatsoever. > > Using other problematic champions as an excuse to justify his existence isn't a good argumentation at all. You don't resolve on problem by saying there's even a bigger one around the corner. > > And you don't talk about my rights of talking about balance when anyone with brain can see how flawless is the logic of your response. I am not even surprised that you got more upvotes than me, it's Board's after all. > > Must, if not all, of your point of view is completly realiant on your opinion and not facts. Saying that anyone with a BT could outheal Aatrox, for example, is completly stupid, because you're comparing someone that wasted 3600Gold to someone who gets it for free on his quit. Also, no they wouldn't outheal Aatrox, it depends on the scenario. > > You're just a mad lad that wants his stat stick Aatrox back. Accept the reality and move on. oh the lies in this is glorious :D. Time to break down your straw man one by one. "You talk as if he needed to land his Q and E and like it was extremly hard to perform. It wasn't, and neither it was fundamental to suceed on him." his q was actually the longest delayed dash in the game and has one of the smallest hit boxes for a knock up proving this as false. his e also was one of the slowest moving projectiles and was the ONLY projectile ever with a reverse cone (cones spread as they go out... his got thinner) it is also worth pointing out these where needed because otherwise aatrox would be kited to hell and unable to heal (try play jax without the q see how easy it is) "He didn't offer any counterplay because he was a Drain Tank Auto Attacker that could heal off minions too" "he didnt offer counterplay" ummm... have you heard of the 2nd most popular summoner spell in the game called {{summoner:14}} ? also he couldnt have more counterplay in his kit if you tried. extremely delayed spells. melee and no cheese mechanics like stealth. as to address the healing off minions. lets go though evey champ that does that. *cough* {{champion:266}} {{champion:103}} {{champion:84}} {{champion:12}} {{champion:69}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:60}} {{champion:9}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:120}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:10}} {{champion:141}} {{champion:203}} {{champion:57}} {{champion:11}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:76}} {{champion:56}} {{champion:20}} {{champion:2}} {{champion:497}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:107}} {{champion:235}} {{champion:37}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:517}} {{champion:48}} {{champion:23}} {{champion:8}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:19}} {{champion:5}} {{champion:83}} {{champion:154}} but I totally see what you mean its not like the first item you can get in the game doesnt provide healing. {{item:1054}} {{item:1055}} and healing with autos is extremely hard to buy {{item:1053}} and the is totally no good items it goes into end game {{item:3072}} {{item:3812}} {{item:3153}} {{item:3146}} {{item:3074}} {{item:3181}} plus lets no address the issue that one cc (didnt even have to be a hard cc) completely fucked aatrox. {{champion:17}} blind countered you hard enough as it was but do you honestly think if you engage on him ur not gonna get a shroom in the face as he walks away with twice your movespeed trying to kit you? lets not even go for a hard counter lets go for a generic mage. First 5 generic mages in alphbetical order because i cba to search. {{champion:103}} charms his he cant get autos he used his engage and cant escape so ahri can use her q movement speed or R is she REALLY needs to. {{champion:34}} q, wall, done. {{champion:1}} e makes her to tanky and she does stun and walks away. {{champion:136}} maybe the only one here aatrox could relieably kill if he doesnt have ult. second this drake has ult aatrox got 0 chance. {{champion:268}} fuck off wall, triple dash, kit from range you get the point. nearly every mage can do this to aatrox, nearly every adc can buy a BT and generally heal for more cause healing on a 1200 crit for 20% is generally more for healing 6.5% missing hp every 3 autos. and supports are kind of known for making big scary characters easy to deal with though kiting. that leaves tanks. oh no the tanks have no choices to deal with aatrox. {{champion:33}} Hi im rammus with a built in thornmail. {{champion:54}} hi im malphite who can fuck your attack speed. {{champion:31}} hi im cho i can cc lock you and burst you. {{champion:122}} hi i can sustain as well for percentage missing hp and dunk you. Group: oh and we all have access to {{item:3075}}. Aatrox was an underdog for so many years cause he was countered by literally every role expect no cc no escape carries. but then again nearly everything kills them. "And you don't talk about my rights of talking about balance when anyone with brain can see how flawless is the logic of your response. I am not even surprised that you got more upvotes than me, it's Board's after all." umm you realize aatrox was so bad he was a meme and the is literally tens to hundred of videos about him being shit? just youtube some. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTKsYaZ0088 "Must, if not all, of your point of view is completly realiant on your opinion and not facts." 10s to 100s" of videos :D stream records of pros opinion on aatrox. Being so bad he was used by pros to insult the games they think they have no chance of losing like manamune aatrox. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HOfdQ_MXS0 "Saying that anyone with a BT could outheal Aatrox, for example, is completly stupid, because you're comparing someone that wasted 3600Gold to someone who gets it for free on his quit." all i hear is "why do i as {{champion:1}} have to buy ap and a void staff when {{champion:31}} gives him true damage and a bigger base damage and infinite scaling" plus lets go with your logic. ok aatrox is the best healing champ in the game... so what :D? his healing relies on him doing autos. the are tens of thousands a game a day where laners get zoned from minons and cant cs or sometimes even get hp for aatrox this stops his ults. plus healing does not help you burst. healing a large amount only helps when the enemy is a low dps character who cant out damage your healing (which is very fucking easy. pretend you have 4000 hp and you have 1 remaining. your w heals for the AMAZING amount of ... 259.935 hp. devide this over the 3 autos he takes to do this means he heals for 86 hp on each auto. Also {{champion:420}} in a gank. if she is by one passive gets an e into a simple 2 person ult (her laner and the enemy jungle) this will take her to 4 tentacles. procing one slam on one target. would lead her to getting 4 instances of 5% missing hp healing. and remember after ulting her w cd is halved making 6 seconds at rank 5 * 0.6 for cdr taking it to 3.6 which it will then be halved to 1.8 seconds. So point A aatrox is no where close to the best champion for healing. B ever if he was so what? he is the best thing at something that A doesnt win you the game B doesnt win you lane but just allows you to back a little less often... ok... oh btw for fun you said "Saying that anyone with a BT could outheal Aatrox, for example, is completly stupid, because you're comparing someone that wasted 3600Gold to someone who gets it for free on his quit."{{item:1053}} providing 10% lifesteal. means for a 4000 hp aatrox (aatrox LITERALLY never got this much life he cant due to his core items) at 1 health. healing for a total of 86 per auto means an adc needs to do a total damage in one auto of 860. Im sure i dont need to point out how common it is for adcs to do and for adcs like {{champion:202}} {{champion:222}} {{champion:51}} to easily crit for 1500+ however if they complete the item to {{item:3072}} they need to do half that damage. for goal of 430 damage. per auto. so yes an adc with a bt heals more on average then aatrox with impossible levels of health procing his w on no hp. "Saying that anyone with a BT could outheal Aatrox, for example, is completly stupid, because you're comparing someone that wasted 3600Gold to someone who gets it for free on his quit." someone clearly never fucking played him :D if aatrox was a stat stick he rolled snake eyes on every check.
Are you stupid? Are you seriously trying to mess with me or what? I wasted 2 minutes of my life to read such crap? What I've said this entire time? He never said he was strong -> I said he was strong just before his rework, because Old Aatrox kit couldn't and wasn't balanced. Riot left him be overpowered in the last month before his rework because they were going to rework him anyway. Old Aatrox had many flaws on his Q, but don't dare to say you needed to land it anyways. It was monstly used just as Gap-close and nothing else, and on top of it you talk as if his E was terrible when it was extremly good for poke and follow up slow. He could heal off minions during his laning phase and the healing was huge. You come here and tell me that just because you have ignite you counter him? Are you f trying to mess with me? Most of those counters you even listed and wasted my time by making me reading it make no sense whatsoever. CC counters Aatrox? So does counter almost everything in the fk game. A meele champion can be kited when other champions have the tools when played correctly to kite him? NO-WAY!!!! You should earn the award of captain obvious. You even listened Doran's Shield and Blade as Life Steal just to try to argue my point of the fact that he has free life steal in his Kit when you said everyone could get it by buying a BT. You're legit trolling and trying to piss me off for sure. Not a single one of your points were even remotely valid. Arguably, you said it yourself that the Old Aatrox was terrible and garbage. You're literally siding with me when I said that his kit was toxic enough that Riot always kept him on the gutted. Your own arguments are against you, how ironic. Also, please, post on your main account. I want to check how much of a Aatrox player you were before then. :)
xWARx (NA)
: realistically he had a small number of players however the few of us that did play him often really did enjoy everything about the champ (aside from q being stoppable for most of his existence) the thing about new aatrox is he feel too 1 dimensional. you really just build the same few items play the same role each game and just land you 3 q's and its nearly a 100% kill on quishys ect. old aatrox you would change how you built every game based on your laner because of how weak he was you HAD to adapt to even stay in the lane and not hard int. to me that was fun when you had a wall to climb to get the rewards. to the items that made him borderline game breaking prior to them becoming his bread and butter many aatrox players felt he was in a great state with the rework stuff. not quite the old him but still useable and fun. AD caster role he fills now feel more like a riven clone that heals and has broken knees with how poor his mobility is without ulting.
How come his build was flexible? His build has always been sitting on around this items: {{item:3153}} {{item:3074}} {{item:3748}} {{item:3124}} Calling the new Aatrox one dimensional and thinking the Old Aatrox wasn't is actually so wrong in many levels, because it isn't a matter of opinion here. Old Aatrox was a stat stick that he either dealt enough damage with his autos to kill you or not. His only playstyle was getting in range to auto attack most of the times. His Q and E were not anything else more than gap closes most of the time. I agree tough when you say he's similar to Riven - however, he works very differently and has a very distinct different role from her.
: "didnt offer counterplay at all" and you have literally removed all your rights to talk about balance. his entire kit was counterplay on a stick. even with aatrox own slow applied even if he put the q exactly in the center of your champion. you could walk out of it.... without boots. also lets address that to land his e was an extremely slow moving skillshot that got thinner so moving to the side was more effective vs this skillshot then every other skillshot in the game. there his active abilities disproven. lets address the R (wow stat buffs that... increased his range and attack speed) "and no damage?" well it was a small burst of 400 which with just 25 armor gets 20% of his damage took away taking it down to an annie q qith no ability power (scary). I should point out here thresh has the lowest level 18 armor with 28 making the damage from his r... the worst part about it... so his R makes autos slightly easyier to land but infinity harder then i dont know... being an adc? and his w is on hit damage that was so low it was never considered using expect for the closest of encounters and just stayed as extra lifesteal (so extreme). also I wont even address his passive because everyone knows that was the worst part about his kit. Also they completely failed at him being a drain tank a draven who rushes BT normally outheals an aatrox today. And the reason the few of us that played Aatrox are so vocal now... is cause the is literally no champ to replace him. "oh no {{champion:1}} was deleted from the game if only the was another land one hard cc then proceed with burst combo character in the game *cough {{champion:103}} {{champion:34}} {{champion:63}} {{champion:69}} {{champion:60}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:74}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:127}} {{champion:518}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:61}} {{champion:134}} {{champion:163}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:115}} {{champion:142}} {{champion:143}} *". where as whats the replacement to aatrox? being {{champion:24}} simply because he has a 3 hit passive and a dash? jax is about cheesing with a stun and bursting your target before the the stun even wears off different to aatrox. ok so excluding that the closest champ is {{champion:36}} and are you really gonna argue mundo is a replace for old aatrox?
You talk as if he needed to land his Q and E and like it was extremly hard to perform. It wasn't, and neither it was fundamental to suceed on him. He didn't offer any counterplay because he was a Drain Tank Auto Attacker that could heal off minions too. If he somehow could win the trades while on top of that sustain of creeps, then yes, he literally had no counterplay whatsoever. Using other problematic champions as an excuse to justify his existence isn't a good argumentation at all. You don't resolve on problem by saying there's even a bigger one around the corner. And you don't talk about my rights of talking about balance when anyone with brain can see how flawless is the logic of your response. I am not even surprised that you got more upvotes than me, it's Board's after all. Must, if not all, of your point of view is completly realiant on your opinion and not facts. Saying that anyone with a BT could outheal Aatrox, for example, is completly stupid, because you're comparing someone that wasted 3600Gold to someone who gets it for free on his quit. Also, no they wouldn't outheal Aatrox, it depends on the scenario. You're just a mad lad that wants his stat stick Aatrox back. Accept the reality and move on.
xWARx (NA)
: Revert Aatrox
First thing I wanna point out is: Suddently after the rework everyone cares about Aatrox, loved him and even played him on regular basis. The statistics do not show that howeveer, wich is kinda funny. But let's move on. **The new Aatrox is completly different from the old Aatrox.** This is a fact and I won't be denying it when explaining my opinion on this subject. With that said: The Aatrox rework was spectacular, the concept is amazing, the lore is amazing and his overall design is good. This is a very controversial opinion to most of the community in this thread as far as I've read, however, it is my opinion. Old Aatrox could never ever been balanced. If you guys point out that before he got his rework he was meta and was actually a good champion, you guys clearly didn't pay attention: What made him strong before he got reworked was the synergy between {{item:3748}} + {{item:3124}} wich made him too strong for his own good, and he didn't offer counterplay at all. The idea of an AutoAttacker being a drain tank could never be balanced. He would be either useless or extremly strong. If you guys do not believe me, just check his stats over the course of league's history. With that said, Riot didn't had any other option other than removing the playstyle of an AutoAttacker Drain Tank. The idea of changing him to an AD Caster was mostly because they wanted to keep the concept of him being a Drain Tank. They focused on his Drain Tank identity rather than his Auto Attacker identity, and for me it made completly sense. Not only they removed his one dimensional gameplay, but also increased his skill floor by a lot wich allows them to reward players that suceed on him and played him right, while being extremly punished if they missplayed. I've gotta admit though that when Aatrox came right after his rework, I wasn't satisfied with how his Passive / E / R worked back then, but after some changes and with the introduction of his R duration reset, the low cooldown E with one charge only and his passive providing some extra sustain instead of burst damage, to me, Aatrox was extremly fun and a rewarding champion if you punt some time to learn him.
: On Paper....not in reality.
Dude, this is a online game programmed by using mathematics and algorithms, what are you talking about?
Aazzlano (NA)
: What are you talking about? Let's take a level 6 Ziggs for example. no runes for simplicity You go from 899 hp + 34 armor = 1204 EHP to 1609 EHP with a FULLY STACKED {{item:3191}} . That's a 33% effective health increase for 1100g. 3% health increase per 100g. and that's fully stacked which, at 6 minions a wave, assuming you miss a max of 1 per minute, will take 5 waves to stack. Take a level 6 Zed. You go from 919 hp + 37 MR = 1259 EHP to 1855 EHP with {{item:3155}} (+35 MR and 160 hp). That's a 47% effective health increase for 1300g. 3.6% health increase per 100g. AND IT SCALES HARDER WITH LEVELS. And {{item:3191}} is somehow overpowered? Let's not even count the fact that many assassins including Zed do hybrid damage and also use Ignite, while most mages do nearly pure magic damage so MR/Magic damage shield is purely efficient vs them. On top of that, you can't even afford to rush {{item:3191}} because of the lack of mana and its low AP value on itself and {{item:3157}} as well. You can do it (and should/need to) but you will suffer in other areas that you really can't afford to without making yourself near useless until you get more items. And what is {{item:3156}} ? 50 AD = 1750g 10% CDR = 267g 50 MR = 900g 350 magic damage shield = 933g lifegrip stats at low health 20 AD = 700g 10% lifesteal = 375g 10% spellvamp = 275g Costs 3250g. 3850g of stats without the lifegrip AD/lifesteal/spellvamp added in. 5200g of stats with it. Zed at 16 goes from 1814 hp + 50 MR = 2722 EHP to 4328 EHP = 59% effective health increase. plus 2000-3300g of offensive stats ON TOP of that. Ziggs at 16 goes from 1867 hp + 69 Armor = 3155 EHP to 5418 EHP if he builds A RANDUIN'S OMEN {{item:3143}} = 71% health increase. Slightly more tanky than a Zed building {{item:3156}} , with ZERO OFFENSIVE STATS. And there isn't a single AP item that will get you even close to 60% health increase like Maw will, you have to build pure tank items to get even close to that. And for Zed specifically, well he's a CertainlyT champ so that's all that needs to be said about the balance of his kit and how much counterplay there is, and how much skill you need to have to roll over kids playing actual well designed champs.
First off: Your argumentation is kinda ridiculous and I'll tell you why -> Too much variables for a simple equation. The discussion here is between {{item:3191}} and lethality stackers, AKA {{item:3134}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3814}} . {{item:3191}} gives 30 armor. When fully stacked, wich is not very hard to do, gives you 45 armor. Do you have any idea how much lethality items do you need to nullify 1100 gold? You need {{item:3142}} {{item:3147}} at lv18 to penetrate 21+18 armor wich is 39 armor. You need one more item of lethality to nullify it. Now, like I said, this happens when the lethality user is at lv18. {{item:3191}} is one of the most overpowered items in the game when facing any lethality stacker.
: What risk! Lol. Zed has no risk. If you hourglass he simple wither waits it out or shadows out.....there is no risk lol.
What are you talking about? In a isolated game where you are 1vs1 perhaps it doesn't matter. In a 5vs5 wasting your resources and ultimate costs you a lot, lol.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: the hell am I supposed to see? it's like me linking cap's match history and say "check this out"
He played Vel'Koz support with Teleport and finished the game with 14 deaths. This was his last game. He came here right after he lost it and made a new thread "Zed is OP".
: a single game means nothing but nice try
Oh yes, but for his argumentation it is quite enough.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Hwke94,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JTowHeGU,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-11-17T13:58:55.566+0000) > > if he's not banned he roflstomps your entire team by placing shadow on you, can't argue against the boards's bandwagoning can we
https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/match/na/3209063820#participant3 Check it out.
Hwke94 (NA)
: Zed's counter play is the equivalent of cutting off my legs for charity
https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/match/na/3209063820#participant3 Let me see: You're palying Vel'Koz support, you pick TP as your summoner spell, not only you didn't bought {{item:3191}} , you sat on a {{item:2420}} that you didn't even use once. You ended the game Lv13 while Zed ended Lv18. You know what? People like you should be banned from Boards. Babyrage about one champion after getting smashed by him should not be tolerated, and the worst is that your argumentation is beyond stupid.
: So When is ryze nerf and when his next rework ?
And the best part is his trade pattern combo with his E + W where you eat his whole combo while snared and you can't trade back because once you're free, he activates the phase rush and backs off and waits half second for his cooldowns to be back. (The half second is a joke obviously, but 4 seconds window or even less, is a joke).
: I think Qiyana is a cool champ, but wtf is that ulti?
And you only have a problem with her ultimate? Her Q element of Water is also ridiculous to have on an assassin. 0.5 seconds root is perfectly enough to setup a whole combo from an assassin. If that isn't enough, if she can get close to the brushes you waste a lot of time trying to kill her because the duration of stealth and the reset / cooldown from her Q are extremly low. She just doesn't make any sense. Any other AD assassin mid laner cannot be compared to her, since she's far easier to play and offers a lot more to the team, while having lane dominance like Talon. And let's not ignore the previous point I made that she has hard CC and stealth while being an assassin.
: Yeh it's called being old dude. Maybe one of these days you'll grow up out of your assassin main emo self and learn the joys of pushing 40. I literally don't give a fuck about winning or losing. I just play ranked because it's less toxic on average than normal draft, I haven't touched this account other than a couple games in months. I mean I'm a pretty average player, and considering I'm 39 I think that ain't half bad. I just don't care enough about winning or losing in a video game to spend an entire season spamming some broken ass Assassin like Zed for virtual cred on a game that's basically a sinking ship. I play whatever champ sounds the least boring at any given time. As to I don't know what I'm talking about you know you are a fucking moron when you think that game knowledge means a game thing in league of one shot unless you have the reflexes to do anything with it. League has become a game of he who hits first hits last. I'm not winning any contests in the reflexes department.
Your excuse to your rank and lack of information and clearly stupid bias is your age. Good. No one cares you're 40 or even 70. I couldn't care less. Your opinion is wrong. Not because I said it, not because I am a Zed main. It's a fact that assassins are not broken and you are just not good enough at the game to understand that. Get over it and deal with the reality, wich is very simple: You suck at this game and you have no agency whatsoever to even argue against me. And people like you are laughable because when cornered by the argument of your Rank, wich represents how good and how much knowledge you have about this game, you guys always act like you don't try hard or that your rank is somehow not your fault. **_Laughable_**
: Can Ryze Stop outtrading with Mana Crystal
Don't worry because they will tell you that all you have to do is to not get close to your own wave. In other words, _**don't leave your base**_
: Lol what part of that can you even argue with? That assassins don't generally have more kills that other classes, that assassins are solo laners, or that solo laners get more xp? Do you even League bro? Or too busy playing fortnite? Oh wait.. you are a Zed one trick. That fucking explains it. And of look.. you have more kills on your assassins on average per game than every other champion you play. Did you seriously have a point? Or you just another asshole assassin player that stands up for how "totally not op at all" they are while abusing them to climb?
The part where you're Silver 2 with negative WR and you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
: No shit... LOTS of champions invalidate tanks... That's kind of the point of saying tanks are weak. They are trash tier the moment someone picks a Bruiser top, and get shat on in the jungle by constantly being invaded and having zero dueling ability. They also just plain suck at contesting skuttles.
No they don't. Not everysingle champion invalidates tanks. Tanks are not favorable nowdays because of the MR itemazation and due to the fact they get bullied extremly hard by ranger champions on top lane. On top of that, they are the class that offer the least solo carry potencial. None of the reasons you gave are the reason why they're not popular right now. So yes, "No shit" indeed.
: Dude assassins are solo laners.. they are ALWAYS up by 2 levels... LOL. Also they generally have more kills that every other class of champion due to their kit... so yeh they generally have a lot of kills.
Not gonna lie, I'm surprised with your level of lack of common sense. I won't bother to teach you how this game works - wich you clearly have no idea how it does. Some of the comments like yours make me think that boards should have a minimum rank to even come here to talk about balance.
: You act like that Rammus isn't going to just get absolutely shit on by some Rengar/Lee/Khazix camping his jungle 24/7, or that something like Darius/Fiora isn't going to just invalidate that Malphite. There is a reason people only play Malphite as an AP burst mage now.
No he is not. And surprise, surprise! Darius and Fiora are intended to invalidate the tanky Malphite. _Even tough lately it doesn't seems to be the case_
: {{champion:86}} is my fav assassin
That's the point. There are champions that are doing what they're not supposed to do.
: No they are actually busted enough these days that they do high amounts of damage in a zero window of time. 0.0 second kills are the norm these days.
No they're not. We are not using case scenarios where the assassin is up by two levels and is 10-0 to talk about balance.
: {{champion:54}} {{champion:107}} {{champion:121}} {{champion:238}} What Damage?
**Assassins** doing high amounts of damages in a small window of time ?? _That's insane_
: Can we tone down damage and make league require skill again?
To begin with I am pretty sure that Morgana's problema isn't her shield blocking CC and Magic Damage. I am pretty sure it is her Root that last 3 seconds and it doesn't matter if she's 0-10 -> It's still impactful and can turn games. Also, yes the damage is higher than it was, however using Malphite has an example is wrong - the champion became a viable and popular pick because of the setup of Ultimate Hunter + Presence of Mind wich removes the weakness of AP Malphite being useless without his ultimate. People like to compare the old setup of Runes + Masteries to the new Runes and say that the damage increased flat out - wich is completly true do not mistake me here - however people tend to forget that AP items had higher AP ratios, AD items also had higher AD values and Last Whisper was cheaper and offered 40% ArmorPen. If you want me to elaborate even further, Ghostblade used to give higher AD, critical chance, atk speed and movement speed while on top of that having 20%ArmorPen that is the equivalent of 20 lethality when you're lv18 (scale by level) when you purchased it. Infinity Edge would almost triple the damage from a Crit while being one of the items with the most AD in the game. Etc .. Overall simply "reducing damage" isn't the solution for anything and statements that everyone gets one shoted under one second are just not true at all. There are just some champions (mostly the new ones that have been added / reworked) that need to be balanced.
: They traded his shield for better wave clear. do you want him to lack in characteristics in both departments?
You talk as if it wasn't because he was already overloaded at all right? I don't want to gut him or anything, but in what department does he lack at the moment? Durability? When he builds Seraph's, Armguard's into Zhonya's and also Rod / Morellos wich grant nice HP bonus? I've seen some Ryzes even building FH and being sucessfull. He doesn't lack in anything at the moment. Waveclear, lane bullying, CC (targeted!) and scales while on top of that having a lot of viavel different builds with the only restrinction being that he has to always get a Tear. On top of that a lot of his counterplay and weakness's are denied because of the existence of Phase Rush.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: Can you stop Ryze from pressuring a lane with mana items?
It's not even only about the fact that he actually outrades easly early game with mana items, but also his waveclear is ridiculous and almost as if it has no cooldown literally. On top of that, his point click root still exists with his E + W and it is so strong for setup but also to simply run away with phase rush proc.
Whiisp (NA)
: Absolutely, however the thing about higher elo's is we dodge every single game that we think is not winnable. Turning 10 minutes queue into 30 minutes anyway... That's what I mean when I say we might as well remove it... so less dodge ? Because I feel removing dodges in this current system is suicide and no one will play high elo anymore, from what I can see.
Yes I absolutly agree. Yesterday I spent 20 minutes overall in queue because of dodges, so yeah you do make a point in that regard.
Whiisp (NA)
: As much as Auto fill is a good concept on paper, it ruins too many games [Diamond 2+ (Diamond+)]
Yeah, but if you remenber the number one reason why autofill was implemented was also because of high elo games. The queue times would be very large, sometimes up to 30 minutes for a challenger game. Obviously that the ranked experience overall was far better, but the time it took to find one match was also a pain in the ass to deal with. But I am on your side on removing the autofill too.
: > [{quoted}](name=iDarkWind,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IJgrioLW,comment-id=00100001,timestamp=2019-11-04T18:28:55.958+0000) > > Except that if you're a meele champion the box does not get disabled or triggered wich means you'll have to walk up get feared and take damage to clear it up. But sure, let's keep the act of the fact that Shaco is fine. I dont think he is fin all champs with TRUE invisible bs are not fine and this has to go. But he is not the end of the world
He kinda is if you think about it. Him and Evelynn and also Akali are all a pain in the ass to deal with. At least Rengar and Kha'Zix have stealths as ultimates, not as a normal ability in their kit.
: {{item:3364}} {{item:2055}} + brains = Shaco countered
Except that if you're a meele champion the box does not get disabled or triggered wich means you'll have to walk up get feared and take damage to clear it up. But sure, let's keep the act of the fact that Shaco is fine.
: Another nerf Kai'Sa thread
She actually just needs to flat out reduce her burst damage from her Q, it's just too much from a targeted ability.
: Victorious Aatrox Design Poll
I don't understand the hate. The skin actually looks cool and uses the same base line as others victorious skins as it should be. Being similar to Justificar Aatrox is a dumb argument because they are actually very different aside from the colors. Also Aatrox being chosen isn't anything unexpected - he caused a big impact on pro play and that is proved by how many changes he got because of that.
: next season we'll finally have support items that allow all the AD champions to go bot lane
Zed? Ekko? Do you understand that mages are viable as support because they have high base damage abilities and are long range and offer CC? Zed for example doesn't offer any of that, how come it will ever be good? Are you guys trolling or do you all seriously don't think before posting?
: I second this. I _never_ see Wukong anymore. I never played him, but I'm starting to miss the little rod-spinning sneak in my games.
Yeah, who doesn't miss the guy that one shots your ADC from invisibility and proceeds to CC your whole team with his ultimate? Why do you guys always forget why certain champions get guted in first place? His kit doesn't even offer counterplay because of how straight foward it is. He needs a rework before anything.
: > [{quoted}](name=iDarkWind,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5jFwzwhU,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-10-13T12:53:48.587+0000) > > That's simply not true. Vlad early game clearly isn't good by any means, but one of the biggest strenghts that I think he has is that altough he is a mid / late game champion he does not suffer as much as others late game champions during laning phase, because of his sustain. > It is not that simple to bully a good Vladimir during the early game. Also, the "takes at least 2 items to come online" is not true unless the items you're speaking off are {{item:3108}} + {{item:3067}} . With only those two components he almost denies his early game weakness and proceed to simply Q the minions and survive until mid and late game. > > Obviously that his sustain does not deny his weakness when it comes to early game squirmishes and roams, but he's one of the safest scaling champions in the game, in my opinion. Ganking/bullying Vlad in the early game isn't how you abuse his weak early game. Vlad's waveclear is beyond garbage and it's about shoving him in and roaming.
Bro, if you do that you just let him free farm and bypass his early game weakness. That strategy would only work if all of your roams did actually managed to suceed wich in higher rankeds isn't that easy to pull off.
: > [{quoted}](name=iDarkWind,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5jFwzwhU,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2019-10-13T15:50:35.388+0000) > > Ah, I mean you're talking about Vladimir Top, then yes, it works a litlle bit different, but as long as Vlad is capable of freezing close to his turrent he should be alright. But yes, in top lane he loses a lot because of his weakness to most bruisers all ins. > In the mid lane works a bit different because the lane is much shorter and I think that the best Vlad is mid Vlad for sure. I completely disagree mid vlad has to deal with champions that can actually out range or match range and deal with him by superior damage Top, half the time he plays the lane out as a lane bully, bc playing melees in this game sucks ass, while scaling into an unkillable monster
But the lane is much longer and his cooldowns in the early game are pretty big. On top of that, most meta bruisers have very strong all ins and better DPS than him during the early game and also Kled is a good pick nowdays. Vlad is not about being able to solo kill your opponent. If you can do that, that is awesome, but all you need to do actually is just to survive early game and outscale massively most of your opponents.
Saezio (EUNE)
: Mid {{champion:84}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:61}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:91}} {{champion:518}} {{champion:142}} They just destroy him in lane. You just need to perma all in him. He can't do anything early, ANYTHING
Hmm, that looks good on the paper but that's not how it works actually. Most of those champions you listened do not really counter Vladimir, especially Zed and Akali. https://u.gg/lol/champions/vladimir/matchups
Saezio (EUNE)
: Any early lane bully(think {{champion:122}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:85}} {{champion:80}} {{champion:23}})+ competent jungler pressure for 3 minutes (3min-6mins or so) can make the vlad useless. The key is to be constantly all ining in the early phases when vlad has Q only level 1,2 or 3. This way you end up with such a humongous advantage at level 9 (when vlad becomes a champion) that you can even then all in him at every opportunity.
Ah, I mean you're talking about Vladimir Top, then yes, it works a litlle bit different, but as long as Vlad is capable of freezing close to his turrent he should be alright. But yes, in top lane he loses a lot because of his weakness to most bruisers all ins. In the mid lane works a bit different because the lane is much shorter and I think that the best Vlad is mid Vlad for sure.
Saezio (EUNE)
: Is Vladimir a pro problem? Aatrox was too much of a safe lane bully, that's why he got gutted. Vladimir can be destroyed in lane, and takes at least 2 items to be somewhat threatening. If you pick any champion with decent early lane phase vlad can't even farm. And if your jungler is not pisspoor trash, vlad will be focus ganked and enemy team will be playing 4v5 essentially
That's simply not true. Vlad early game clearly isn't good by any means, but one of the biggest strenghts that I think he has is that altough he is a mid / late game champion he does not suffer as much as others late game champions during laning phase, because of his sustain. It is not that simple to bully a good Vladimir during the early game. Also, the "takes at least 2 items to come online" is not true unless the items you're speaking off are {{item:3108}} + {{item:3067}} . With only those two components he almost denies his early game weakness and proceed to simply Q the minions and survive until mid and late game. Obviously that his sustain does not deny his weakness when it comes to early game squirmishes and roams, but he's one of the safest scaling champions in the game, in my opinion.
: Dude, I watched the replay. Your entire team played like idiots. Your 3rd death was you jumping head first into an MF ult and staying there to eat the whole thing. Your first death was you and Udyr chasing TF into the jungle when your ward clearly showed Ekko was on his way to assist. Sorry bro, but you guys deserved to lose the way you all played. > You're a common troll around these parts. I'm not the one going on 8 game lose streaks vs Silver players.
You didn't had to destroy him like that with that last sentence man
Cdore (NA)
: What I don't understand about conqueror...
Since when are Bruisers not supposed to do well against Tanks? Where have you got that one from? Haven't you played the game since S5 and you think we're still in the meta where Tanks would run you down with their tank items and outdamage you by building pure defensive? You all like to make tanks act like victims when they were the biggest villains in League's history probably. If there is something that is definitely not fun is when tanks are overpowered and meta. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xn5E-G81FY And stop saying that Zed shouldn't scratch tanks even tough his build really consist in denying the enemie's armor - {{item:3142}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3036}} . Also, Conqueror was created in first place because Tanks took over the top lane and other picks such as Bruisers could not beat them. If you did some research you would understand that.
: > I don't think gold players should comment on whether a champion should or shouldn't be nerfed, because as you can tell with this post, you gold players have no clue how strong things actually are. _Hides behind a level 16 account..._
Who cares? I agreed with him and stated other example wich was Ornn and the "Gold" Players are just downvoting my comments wich are statements of things that DID HAPPEN and that is not my opinion. But you guys know the best right? Thilmer posts are all getting ass upvotes and he is a Bronze 2 with 48% WR, but yeah you guys know the best.
GigglesO (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=iDarkWind,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApIZIVkn,comment-id=0008000200000000,timestamp=2019-10-05T16:46:13.030+0000) > > But thats because the only way to win against him back then was literally by playing Juggernauts wich are the ultimate tank counters. > Naming one counterpick and saying that x champion was fine because you had y pick to counter him isn't really "healthy" balance, don't you think? Again he won against who he was supposed to win against. You are mistaking what ornn was supposed to do with “OP”. He did exactly what he was supposed to.
Are you trolling or what? I'm literally telling you that he pressed W to outrade anyone in laning phase because of how overpowered that ability has. Anything else didn't matter. You named a counterpick and called it a day. Since when was Ornn intended as a Tank to do well against every Bruiser and Tank? Even the juggernauts matchups he would do quite decently. What I said here isn't an opinion, it's a fact. It did happen and it was this way, and everyone wanted Ornn nerfed back then.
GigglesO (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=iDarkWind,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApIZIVkn,comment-id=00080002,timestamp=2019-10-05T11:09:31.601+0000) > > Thanks god, you literally just spoke the truth. > I don't know why but I think a lot of players here let the nostalgia effect kick in and make them ignore most of the problems in the previous seasons or the primary reasons for certain champions to be gutted. > > If Sejuani isn't enough, do you also remenber Ornn? He was literally the press W to win champion (passive, shield, %damage and unstoppable), and people still claim nowdays that Ornn was fine and that Riot did him dirty. It's insane. I had no issue against him as old Morde.... it was champ select issues. He won against champs he was supposed to...
But thats because the only way to win against him back then was literally by playing Juggernauts wich are the ultimate tank counters. Naming one counterpick and saying that x champion was fine because you had y pick to counter him isn't really "healthy" balance, don't you think?
Thilmer (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=LightswornLance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ndA3RFrG,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2019-10-05T13:41:04.616+0000) > > AD champs and AS champs ( I assume you mean on hit ) are the best?? No, mages are. When was the last time you saw an AD assassin in a pro game? Mages dominate every lane from top to mid to bot. What game are you playing exactly? Because I don't see that in my games at all, mind you.
You can't really use your rankeds as an example, can you? Probably Teemo mid is the pick meta there.
: you think every mage builds it might **HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH THAT THERE ARE NO OTHER AP ARMOR ITEMS?** and add on to that that AD champions and Attack Speed champions are currently the strongest in the game? Add onto that that Assassins have a huge percentage of the pick rate... if they don't build zhonya's, they will be a walking balloon by mid-game when any of the three AD champs on the opposing team decide to attack them
Alright. I'll try to explain it better. Zhonya's is BROKEN. It isn't because there are not other options for AP Armor. Most of the people that pick it isn't because of it giving Armor, if it was a Magic Resist and AP item they would still pick it anyways. The item is flat out broken because of the active being extremly good against the mage counters, while on top of that most of Divers and Assassins being AD and stacking lethality. But like I said: If it was a Magic Resist + AP they would still pick it even if they needed armor. Armor on Zhonya's is just a bonus to tell to any lethality stacker to fuck off. > and add on to that that AD champions and Attack Speed champions are currently the strongest in the game? Add onto that that Assassins have a huge percentage of the pick rate... No they're not. Saying that AD and AS champions are the strongest is just a bias opinion that probably must mages players think. Assassins have huge pick rates because they're more fun to play, not because they're stronger. Even when Zed was in his worst state ever with 46% WR during pre-season 6 he would still maintain high pick rates because the champion is simply FUN to play. > if they don't build zhonya's, they will be a walking balloon by mid-game when any of the three AD champs on the opposing team decide to attack them There's a thing called macro and positioning that really helps to counter that. On top of that, most of the mages are already long range. Zhonya's just removes the counterplay that you have to them, because once you get on top of them they will just say "NOPE" and deny you the kill, while on top of that they can take summoners spells such as Barrier and being extremly hard to kill. Zhonya's is broken and the people that deny it are probably the ones that know it the best. I wouldn't say that we should remove the item or anything like that - starting by removing the Stopwatch could actually play a big role in balacing the item out.
: Zhonya’s isn’t broken.
That is not true at all lol. Zhonya's is just so strong that overwhelms any other defensive option. Literally every mage builds it nowdays, and why they shouldn't? It's one of the best items to deal with assassins and divers - wich are the only champions in the game who can oppose a treat to long range mages / overall mages. Also taking in consideration its stats, the armor is provides denys a ton of lethality from the assassins. If the assassins only builds Ghostblade and Duskblade it totally nullifies the lethality provided by both items until the assassin reachs lv16 or something around that. On top of that, the build path is amazing and has one of the best items against AD assassins as a component: {{item:3191}} . If this isn't enough, just think that people literally waste 600G for {{item:2423}} wich is a single use. That's how valuable the active is.
: What? Sejuani got gutted because people who play her were seeing success with her before they buffed both cinderhulk and her W in the same patch. Then she became an unkillable monster with the ability to 100-0 an ADC at any point in the game with her combo. She instant cleared camps meaning there was no way you would ever be behind in farm provided you understood pathing even a tiny bit, and provides the most reliable flash CC in the game with a passive that allows for diving turrets very early on in the game. There was no downside to the champion, she was just incredibly strong with no weaknesses. So they hit the W back to where it was before the buff, as that was the change that made her busted. I'm sorry but I shouldn't be able to walk into a Rek'Sai level 3 for scuttle and win that trade, get the scuttle, and even if it becomes a 3v3 for top or bottom crab I still win because I'm a busted champion with too much % damage in my kit. OH AND THIS IS % DAMAGE BASED ON YOUR OWN HEALTH, for a champion that only builds health. She won every matchup except against Kindred who wasn't strong at the time. I'm sorry but that isn't ok, and that's why she got nerfed. Being able to pick a champion knowing that you are going to be able to do whatever you want the entire game because noone can touch you is just ridiculously broken, and welcome to why she eventually got nerfed. I don't think gold players should comment on whether a champion should or shouldn't be nerfed, because as you can tell with this post, you gold players have no clue how strong things actually are.
Thanks god, you literally just spoke the truth. I don't know why but I think a lot of players here let the nostalgia effect kick in and make them ignore most of the problems in the previous seasons or the primary reasons for certain champions to be gutted. If Sejuani isn't enough, do you also remenber Ornn? He was literally the press W to win champion (passive, shield, %damage and unstoppable), and people still claim nowdays that Ornn was fine and that Riot did him dirty. It's insane.
Mustamaa (EUW)
: Pyke is totally broken, please rework him.
I wouldn't say he's broken. I just think that he's annoying and monstly it is very hard to punish a good Pyke player. He just has to many tools to run away when he fucks up, thats the biggest problem. Saying that he is an easy champion to pick up and broken tier is just not true.
: Worst Patch Ever - Bugs have JUMPED
In Game bugs are even worse. Since Yuumi came out, and since her "untargatability makes her not dodge incoming abilities" many champions like Zed and Evelynn have been suffering from a bug where they are hit by abilities while being untargable.
Nasakeki (NA)
: I'm really tired of the champions I enjoy being gutted because Riot won't listen.
I know very well that Riot sometimes are big d*cks - but lets be real here for a moment: Poppy literally was broken as hell. She tanked everything and would run you down because she was so tanky that she dealt more damage to you than you did to her. Also, she had a unique mechanic to mess up the mobile champions wich made her even more oppresive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xn5E-G81FY Taliyah was basicly a Talon, but the difference is that she didn't need Tiamat. Talliyah mid lane would always shove the wave and try to roam because she had a movement speed boost with her passive plus her ultimate at level 6. She had to be nerfed because the lane was uninteractive as hell. Ornn was winning every matchup on release by literally pressing W. Getting a Shield while being unstoppable and doing damage that was fixex % damage on the target. If that wasn't enough, you had acess to buy his items on shop whenever you wanted, because he didn't had the level restrictions (but to be fair you also had to pay). And Yummi should be pretty obvious. Like an Assassin Support shouldn't exist, an Enchanter that is perma untargatable shouldn't also exist. The counter to most enchanters has always been to kill them first so, but what's the counterplay to Yummi besides literally having to outdamage the heals and everything else that she provides to her ADC? Even worst is when she gets inside a Bruiser like Aatrox or even things like Olaf or Volibear. I know very well that there could have been better ways to deal with those champions instead of simply constantly nerfing them - However anyone that has eyes can clearly see why Riot has been nerfing them over and over again.
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iDarkWind

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