Pika Fox (NA)
: They didnt really buff darius in a way that lower elo can abuse
They gave him braindead damage buffs to W and E, if you think hitting W on an enemy is something only high elo players can pull off then I have to disappoint you. Also if you think only high elo players can play with +5% Armor pen then I have another set of bad news for you.
Pika Fox (NA)
: They nerfed him because he was abusing lower ELOs too much.
Ah yeah but buffing Darius was fine, everyone knows that Darius is just unplayable in low elo right?
: Hashinshin gets a 2-week ban for going 0/19 with Viktor top.
> Knowing Hashinshin, he tested some cheese pick he saw in Worlds blind....and gave up the lane as soon he died 3 times in a row, then proceeded to soft-int. > > I'm not sure how long his game was Let me get this straight, you didn't even watch the game and accuse him of inting? Might as well just recode the IFS to "if KDA < 0.25 then ban"
: smit
You uhhh.. you mean smite? It's a summoner spell like heal or ghost You get it after account level 15 I think
: Infernal Mordekaiser
It will propably cause a bug where the whole map is on fire and gets turned into magma chamber
: Share your OWN thoughts on how you'd nerf Kai'Sa, Graves, Irelia, Aatrox, Urgot & Akali
{{champion:145}} Take away 25 aa range and make her spell-upgrades need more stats (so she scales slower) She gets through laning phase too easily for how hard she scales. {{champion:104}} Just works so well with the current items/runes, easiest way to adress him is to brute force him down to a normal level by damage decreases. Maybe look at the knockback range on his autos on monsters so he gets hit more by them and leaves the jungle with less HP, or remove knockback on scuddle so he can't clear it that fast. So either hit his clear speed or his clear safety or just braindead damage nerfs to whatever. {{champion:39}} Reduce aa range to 175, remove cc buffering from her W, increase reactivation time on Q to slow her down (only early levels, same in late game), remove shield busting mechanic, remove disarm compensate her with base HP, HP/lvl scaling, AD/lvl and strengthen the slow on her R to compensate for disarm removal Powershift, take away power from early game and put it into late. Make her have a clear powercurve and trim down the fat in the kit, remove tools to add counters to her playstyle. Make it so you can retaliate on a Irelia that ulted on you but still get punished for crossing the wall {{champion:266}} Hard to say, passive deals shit ton of damage, I would remove mutilation debuff from it and reduce damage but let it heal Aatrox for a % of the damage dealt by the passive. Less burst on the enemy but still dominant in the early game. This reduces Aatrox's all in potential but I think the true problem is his Q (well his only ability that does anything relevant). The thing is that this ability is balanced around the idea that you don't need to hit every Q for you to go even in a trade (or even win it). That leads to a situation where IF he hits every Q, you are going to lose 60% of your HP bar. More or less losing the entire laning phase because of that. Making the abilitiy easier to land but reducing the damage should make it easier to deal with in a general sense. Generally aim to a state where you aren't getting punished so hard for making mistakes against Aatrox but let Aatrox still be rewarded for executing his kit properly (mainly through lane sustain) {{champion:6}} The thing I see with Urgot is that he deides what happens in the laning phase. Thanks to spellbook and his cc buffer he can decide what to do, if he just wants to farm you are just going to farm since catching him wont be easy and just engaging in his minion wave will make it so you will lose the trade thanks to his W. If he wants to fight he can whittle you down with Q (since it's so easy to hit) and zone you out eventually (still you are unable to engage). He dictates the pacing of the laning phase and what is being done too well. There are 2 ways to fix this, either you nerf his anti-engage tools or nerf his Q reliability. Maybe even removing his cc buffer might be an idea but that would be a hefty nerf. {{champion:84}} Get rid of true stealth, remove the micro stun on her R1 and remove healing from her AOE then get rid of true stealth and make it so her E doesn't have global range but around 1.5x lee Q2. Make it so the smoke just goes into terrain instead of building around it (less places where she can be) and get rid of true stealth. Compensate her with base HP and base armor. There is just simply too much stuff in her kit that ends up overloading her and reducing counters to her playstyle (happens quite often with CT champs honestly). Trim the fat in her abilities and just compensate with base stats to make it so she has a harder time against her counters but an easier time against favorible matchups. Kind of like Kassadin, try to make Akali more like Kassadin when it comes to laning phase. By the way you forgot to mention {{champion:164}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:555}} {{champion:14}} Also {{item:3095}} {{item:3147}}
GripaAviara (EUNE)
: Why is Kha allowed to instakill you even when between 3?
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=FreeOfChargeHoe,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QL0NUd71,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-10-16T07:00:28.366+0000) > > Rammus player complaining about something feeling awful? How about you play ad champ once and get taunted you fucking twat. Don't know what your problem is lad {{champion:41}}
: Must own 20 champs to play
well it says right there you must own 20 not 140
nelogis (EUW)
: Ad Hominem Always happens when someone tries to defend an abomination of a design Here let me sum up that counterplay to her you have come up with 1) Just dodge bro 2) Wait out her shroud so she can heal back and push the wave until she is out of laning phase 3) Don‘t pick one of the +60 champions with targeted damage against her There is no reason to talk to someone that doesn‘t understand when something is fundamentally shit design
I'm not talking about Kennen since I don't know how you think that guy is anything but toxic to play against (top lane at least) Yes let's compare Ahri charm and Morg snare (one of the hardest abilities to land on a non-cc'd ranged target) to an instant casted ability. Oh also let's not forget that Morg and Ahri can go invisible for 10 seconds to set the skillshot up! Oh also let's not forget that Morg snare or Ahri charm can't be QSS'd to stop a full engage or something right? Also they have mana and can't just willy nilly spam their abilities left and right (other than their wave clear) and don't come here with your "but manaflow band!!" I told you numerous times that we might as well make Akali have mana then (I would be happy with that but you know very well that it will hinder Akali from doing what she is doing right now so you avoid the question) Like said, you want me to dodge a Viktor E/R casted right ontop of my face. Stop acting like Akali R or Q is realistically dodgeable. It's like saying dodge Lux E https://youtu.be/dcBEp-y0DRs?t=10m32s Here lemme dodge that real quick https://youtu.be/dcBEp-y0DRs?t=12m33s Not like we need counterplay for a champion or anything like that right? Literally just jumps in your face and presses shroud! Tadaaaaa! You are just zoned out of the fight for 10 seconds how fun is that?! real 10/10 CRISP design right! https://youtu.be/dcBEp-y0DRs?t=15m Not like you should be punished or anything when solo jumping into 4 ppl Oh also lemme dodge that R1 bro, the 0.02 seconds I have for that is too long I think This is as unhealthy as it fucking gets > You REALLY seem to think that Akali heals a lot for some odd reason, are you confusing Akali healing with base healing+gunblade+runes+level up? Literally any marksman with a will outheal akali. Ok since you are still acting like it doesn't do anything then might as well just remove it?
Paroe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PwJfvG9e,comment-id=00010000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-03T15:46:34.023+0000) > > snip Such bias much wow. Theres nothing to be gained from arguing with someone who cant see past the red haze, so ill end this here. Maybe you should take a step back and stop whining about CT.
Ad Hominem Always happens when someone tries to defend an abomination of a design Here let me sum up that counterplay to her you have come up with 1) Just dodge bro 2) Wait out her shroud so she can heal back and push the wave until she is out of laning phase 3) Don‘t pick one of the +60 champions with targeted damage against her There is no reason to talk to someone that doesn‘t understand when something is fundamentally shit design
Paroe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PwJfvG9e,comment-id=000100000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-02T10:18:10.879+0000) > > ok then lets give Akali mana and make her AOE cost 60 mana and shroud cost 80mana then I‘m happy > > Since manaflow band exists it shouldn‘t be a problem right? > > Right? > Fucking hell > > Protip: Trundle can be seen the entire time, attacked stunned and kited, he is predictable and cant jump on you out of nowhere also he doesnt have an AOE to clear the wave while he has his arena up and his arena lasts shorter than Akali shroud, also unlike Akali the enemy laner can just let him do what he wants, there is no urge to get a upper hand when fighting trundle > > For sure as hell can be compared so well > > Protip: Akalis enemy needs to deal with her pre-6 not after, after that it doesnt matter you just have to survive. > > Protip: Leaving your laner alone for 9 seconds to clear the minion wave and heal back up is actually not „dealing with her“ > > Protip: Not being able to deal with a laner you should be dealing with sets you behind. Imagine GP going into every matchup uncontested in the laning phase and scaling freely without risk > > Protip: 80HP is actually a fuck ton in the early game, Yorick heal on Q is 30 HP (doubled when under 50% HP). Also its only single target and doesn‘t slow the opponent and cant be spammed with a 3 second CD and that heal alone is enough for him to sustain through poke matchups > > I‘m still waiting on that weakness i asked for by the way, still havent got a real answer other than „just dodge bro“ > > Also I didnt know that a healthy assassin has wave clear and lane sustain together. > > Oh yeah wait there is Talon, forgot how loved he is by the community when he is meta Mana flow band is great sustain, and you very clearly have never actually played against trundle it seems. Further, why are you comparing what assassin kits to a proto-juggernauts kit? Anyway... Math time. Akalis Q does 25 / 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 (+ 65% AD) (+ 50% AP) damage with 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40% healing. She has 200 energy. Her Q only heals at 180+ energy. Realistically, you get maybe... 100AP in the lane phase. Factoring this in... 125+60 (185)*0.4 = 74 healing at rank 5, meaning that in the lane phase she will not be healing very much. On to her W... It lasts 7 seconds, gets smaller over time, blocks your E, and has its duration increased by 0.5 seconds each time you weave in and out. Also, since you didnt bother to look it up, Trundles zone lasts 8 seconds. _If you decide to stay and fight the champion who goes invisible or controls an area, that is 100% your own fault_. You dont have to back to base, you just have to fall back so you disengage the fight. I understand the whole concept of "tactical retreat" goes against the wanton "GOTTA HIT HIGH AND FAST GOTTA FIGHT" mentality so many players who whine about Akali have, but its the hard honest truth. As for healing, Yoricks heal is 12-82 and 24-164 when below 50% health on a 4 second cooldown. Assuming level 8 (since one point in each ability+4 extra in your chosen skill).... Yorick will be healing for 30 and 60 on a 3.5~3 second cooldown. Meanwhile Akali will be healing for 74 if she has 100AP and only while she has above 180 energy. Yorick has a MUCH STRONGER sustain than Akali does, by far. Onto your last points then; On a skill-shot based champion, a point which you seem to not understand, _dodge the easily dodgeable skill shot IS the counterplay_. Running away from _their relatively easily manipulated zone IS the counterplay_. Not _picking a champion that is only targeted damage IS the counterplay_. You need to understand that compared to champions like Ekko, Zed, Talon, and Kha'zix the mostly skill-shot based Akali who cant instantly burst people unless ahead IS one of the most balanced assassins currently in the game. Hell, you need to understand that the current iteration of Akali is _a thousand times more balanced than the previous version was_. Until you do, all of your arguments will revolve around "BUT I SAID SHES BROOOOOOOKEEEEEEEEEN". Your last point, sustain and healthy assassin... They are not mutually exclusive. AD anything has access to lifesteal, rendering your... 'point' moot. Akali's base healing on her Q is situational, not to mention small during the lane phase. Much like the rest of her, she _scales up_ with more gold.
> Mana flow band is great sustain, and you very clearly have never actually played against trundle it seems. > Further, why are you comparing what assassin kits to a proto-juggernauts kit? Well then like I said, let's just give Akali mana! The I don't care if she spams her abilities and clears waves like a mage since she is going OOM by wave 3 Also YOU were the one to bring Trundle up not me, ask yourself that question Also kind of ironic how a Jungle/Support player tells a Top/Mid main since S3 that he never played against a Trundle Yes I have, Trundle is easily dealt with if you pick anything but a tank top And you know why? Because he is still predictable as hell and can't just out of nowhere jump on you with 3 dashes while being invisible > Anyway... Math time. > Akalis Q does 25 / 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 (+ 65% AD) (+ 50% AP) damage with 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40% healing. > She has 200 energy. > Her Q only heals at 180+ energy. > Realistically, you get maybe... 100AP in the lane phase. Factoring this in... > 125+60 (185)*0.4 = 74 healing at rank 5, meaning that in the lane phase she will not be healing very much. Ok then let's just remove it and compensate her with 30 base HP and like +1 Armor That would be Kassadins base stats and a little more ontop of that Fair no? > On to her W... It lasts 7 seconds, gets smaller over time, blocks your E, and has its duration increased by 0.5 seconds each time you weave in and out. Also, since you didnt bother to look it up, Trundles zone lasts 8 seconds. > If you decide to stay and fight the champion who goes invisible or controls an area, that is 100% your own fault. You dont have to back to base, you just have to fall back so you disengage the fight. I understand the whole concept of "tactical retreat" goes against the wanton "GOTTA HIT HIGH AND FAST GOTTA FIGHT" mentality so many players who whine about Akali have, but its the hard honest truth. Ah I just looked it up, sorry it lasts 10 seconds at max rank Autoing 3 times while in the shroud isn't a huge achievment or outplay, so you will always use the max duration. It would work well if Akali would scale like Trundle, so in other words, like shit. If Akali is an early game bully and is basically just an R bot like Trundle late game then there is no problem but she isn't so it is a problem She scales so she needs to be dealt with in the early game, not after she is level 6, after that you have other problems to deal with. Also kind of funny to call me a "GOTTA HIT HIGH AND FAST GOTTA FIGHT" guy when I literally told you that waiting out Trundle arena is fine > As for healing, Yoricks heal is 12-82 and 24-164 when below 50% health on a 4 second cooldown. Assuming level 8 (since one point in each ability+4 extra in your chosen skill).... Yorick will be healing for 30 and 60 on a 3.5~3 second cooldown. Meanwhile Akali will be healing for 74 if she has 100AP and only while she has above 180 energy. > Yorick has a MUCH STRONGER sustain than Akali does, by far. Oh yeah so much more He just has to cast Q 3 times to outheal 1 Akali Q He just has to cast Q 2 times when under 50% to outheal 1 Akali Q Also he hasn't cleared the wave that much and didn't slow 1 (or multiple) enemies while doing so Here look: New Yorick Q: Yorick smashes the ground beneath him and deals damage in an AOE and slowing all targets hit, Yorick heals for XY amount, doubled when under 50% HP Sounds a little more overloaded doesn't it? > Onto your last points then; On a skill-shot based champion, a point which you seem to not understand, dodge the easily dodgeable skill shot IS the counterplay. Running away from their relatively easily manipulated zone IS the counterplay. Not picking a champion that is only targeted damage IS the counterplay. > You need to understand that compared to champions like Ekko, Zed, Talon, and Kha'zix the mostly skill-shot based Akali who cant instantly burst people unless ahead IS one of the most balanced assassins currently in the game. > Hell, you need to understand that the current iteration of Akali is a thousand times more balanced than the previous version was. Until you do, all of your arguments will revolve around "BUT I SAID SHES BROOOOOOOKEEEEEEEEEN". Ah there it is, "JuSt dOdGe BrO" Ok why is Zoe so hard to deal with then? "JuSt dOdGe BrO" no? Believe it or not but the only skillshot in her kit that is realistically dodgeable is her E and even that can hardly be called "dodgeable" when cast from shroud. Everything else is instant, her Q is instant, her shroud is instant and her ult is instant So in other words you are telling me to dodge a Viktor E/R that is being cast right ontop of my face "JuSt dOdGe BrO" by the way Also kewl that I have to play other champions because mine can't be picked into Akali At least it's only the ones with mostly targeted damage right? Good thing that there aren't like +60 of those or anything Noice design I explained above why waiting out the shroud doesn't help you. Not like you are playing mid to understand. > Your last point, sustain and healthy assassin... They are not mutually exclusive. AD anything has access to lifesteal, rendering your... 'point' moot. Akali's base healing on her Q is situational, not to mention small during the lane phase. Much like the rest of her, she scales up with more gold. Ah yeah who doesn't know the good'ol Bloodthrister rush on Zed for the mad lane sustain We are talking about assassins, not ADCs, not Juggernauts, not tanks... Assassins So no, Assassins do not need lane sustain since they have the benefit of high mobility, high burst and roaming potential that the other player doesn't have. Also they don't need wave clear (not easily accessable one at least), pushing an assassin into their tower to get breathing room is the counter to them. Also they don't need hard cc and to this day I still don't understand why Akali R1 has a stun to cancel channeling stuff. She is the literal definition of an unhealthy assassin The LITERAL definition
Paroe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PwJfvG9e,comment-id=0001000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-02T07:23:49.298+0000) > > good luck hitting something you can‘t see > > Oh also the guy invisible is movementspeed buffed > > Shroud -&gt; spam AOE to clear wave and heal -&gt; wait for next wave -&gt; repeat until you can kill enemy laner > > Noice counterplay there 10/10 design > > Kassa has to get close to minions to get mana and risks getting poked even more because of that > > Also the fact sill remains, they have mana, Akali does not > > Getting killed from full HP down by a lvl 3 Zed/Fizz is really not something that should be happening anyways > > Edit: Also dont forget that if you yolo something into the shroud and miss then akali will just engage on you since you wasted a damage spell on lvl 3 You do know that Akali gets like... 80 health off her Q, right? Its not a whole lot, and it only happens when you have 80% energy or something like that. "MANA" isnt an argument either, as manaflow band exists. I think you, much like many people who whine about Akali, just scream "CT CHAMP OPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOP" without actually learning how to play against her or what her very real weaknesses are. Protip; **_ WHen akali shrouds, it is not to continue the all in. It is because she is at a disadvantage. WHen she drops the shroud, RUN AWAY, because much like trundle fighting her in her zone is a very bad idea._** The current Akali is a gated, skill based champion. She is also, unlike her peers, _balanced in such a way that she alone represents a healthy assassin_.
ok then lets give Akali mana and make her AOE cost 60 mana and shroud cost 80mana then I‘m happy Since manaflow band exists it shouldn‘t be a problem right? Right? Fucking hell Protip: Trundle can be seen the entire time, attacked stunned and kited, he is predictable and cant jump on you out of nowhere also he doesnt have an AOE to clear the wave while he has his arena up and his arena lasts shorter than Akali shroud, also unlike Akali the enemy laner can just let him do what he wants, there is no urge to get a upper hand when fighting trundle For sure as hell can be compared so well Protip: Akalis enemy needs to deal with her pre-6 not after, after that it doesnt matter you just have to survive. Protip: Leaving your laner alone for 9 seconds to clear the minion wave and heal back up is actually not „dealing with her“ Protip: Not being able to deal with a laner you should be dealing with sets you behind. Imagine GP going into every matchup uncontested in the laning phase and scaling freely without risk Protip: 80HP is actually a fuck ton in the early game, Yorick heal on Q is 30 HP (doubled when under 50% HP). Also its only single target and doesn‘t slow the opponent and cant be spammed with a 3 second CD and that heal alone is enough for him to sustain through poke matchups I‘m still waiting on that weakness i asked for by the way, still havent got a real answer other than „just dodge bro“ Also I didnt know that a healthy assassin has wave clear and lane sustain together. Oh yeah wait there is Talon, forgot how loved he is by the community when he is meta
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PwJfvG9e,comment-id=00010000000100000000,timestamp=2018-10-01T19:27:37.707+0000) > > Do you think I&#x27;m stupid or something? > and Akali has stealth for 9 seconds? > since when stealth counters poke? especially when said stealth needs you to reveal yourself+ has 17 sec cd AFTER the shroud expires > Also Diana + Kassa use mana so eventually they have to back > That is true for Diana, kassadin never goes out of mana because he has mana sustain in his kit also right now mana is not an issue for any midlaner because of time warp that is fucking disgusting and won't be nerfed > Fizz and Zed killing laners at lvl 3 has nothing to do with this discussion what the fuck? why would they need to counter poke if they can kill the people who poke them?
good luck hitting something you can‘t see Oh also the guy invisible is movementspeed buffed Shroud -> spam AOE to clear wave and heal -> wait for next wave -> repeat until you can kill enemy laner Noice counterplay there 10/10 design Kassa has to get close to minions to get mana and risks getting poked even more because of that Also the fact sill remains, they have mana, Akali does not Getting killed from full HP down by a lvl 3 Zed/Fizz is really not something that should be happening anyways Edit: Also dont forget that if you yolo something into the shroud and miss then akali will just engage on you since you wasted a damage spell on lvl 3
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: Kassadin has magic shield to counter poke and his passive to counter poke diana has shield on W fizz and zed can kill laners at lvl 3 inform yourself
Do you think I'm stupid or something? and Akali has stealth for 9 seconds? So why does she need 2 things? Also Diana + Kassa use mana so eventually they have to back and so does Fizz if he wants to trickster every skillshot the enemy throws at him Fizz and Zed killing laners at lvl 3 has nothing to do with this discussion
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: Mistake? which mistake? being poked for free because you're a melee champ with no killing pressure until lvl 6 is now a mistake?? Boards talking about design OMEGALUL
You want to talk about design? Yes getting hit by every possible poking ability is a mistake Why are we not giving Zed a heal on his Q then? Why no heal on Fizz? Diana? Kassadin? Believe it or not but not every champ has to be good into every single scenario into every single matchup You can actually add a weakness to a champion that opponents can use... you know... actual counterplay? Tell me the weakness of Akali regarding laning phase pls And don't tell me "JuSt dOdGe BrO"
: Nerf both
Do that and nerf Irelia again after
: What can be done about Camille so isn't played literally every single match?
Just make her dash not have the same range as from earth to planet mars would be a start Also make it so the dash can't go over walls Make it so she doesn't gain movementspeed when using Q Make it so she doesn't gain attack speed when landing the stun Make it so her dash stops when she gets stunned mid channel Rework the ult (one of the most idiotic abilities in the game, seriously) Just get rid of the fat in her spells
: Morgana new mechanic "Anti-Aid"
hell no, it's way too powerful. That is a grevious wounds + mutilation on steroids alltogether. That is the literal definition of powercreep If you want to have some sort of anti-aid mechanic to her just add GW or Mutilation to her AOE and be done with it. Keep in mind to remove something else from her kit while doing that tho otherwise you overload her.
Jamaree (NA)
: Alright, then make it AoE or do damage then.
Nah, give him true movementspeed, can't be slowed or snared Also don't forget the 2 dashes and the ranged Q attack where he tapes a pole on his cane and smacks you with it (1100 range) Also his ult blinks him to a location now Also his Q is true damage Also his healing is tripled when he ults Also he gains a 100% movementspeed buff when ulting (which of course can't be slowed or snared either) Yeah I think that would be Nasus if he was released in S8
: Why does Akali's Q heal her?
Because then she would be punished for mistakes, can't have that!
: Can we revert Guinsoos yet?
Revert to which state? The flat stat state? The AOE state? That one wasn't any better to be honest Do you mean the even older phantom hit state?
: Preseason Dev Update Number 2!
What are the rest of the runes looking like ATM? Any changes? (just numbers or whole rune reworks?)
: Thankfully it doesn't, but does more damage when hit by a basic attack or other abilities.
Oh my chanka thank you! Tho I would like if it only procced with spells instead of autos to further enhance his spellslinger playstyle but whatever I guess.
: Ezreal Gameplay Preview | League of Legends
Please don't tell me the Essence Flux roots or something... pls don't
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7nZ0hMom,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-22T18:19:33.998+0000) > I still don&#x27;t know how this is selective Aight. Here's an example > The grounding mechanic doesn&#x27;t directly stop what another mechanic tries to do > It just stops people dashing. "The grounding mechanic doesn't stop any other mechanic except everyone's ability to use any mobility options, whether that's a blink or a dash. This is fine. Obscurity stops people from granting vision on the obscured champ. This is not fine." If you don't get it at this point, you won't get it at any point.
You STILL don't understand what I'm saying with that concept. You have a gameplay element A You have a mechanic B that counters A You have a mechanic C that counters B -> Mechanic B is good -> Mechanic C is trash A = Dashing around B = Grounding C = "True dash" A = High resistances B = True damage C = "True damage mitigation" A = Invisible champions B = True Sight C = True Stealth A counter to a counter is retarted True stealth is exactly that Grounding isn't a counter to a counter, it's "just" a counter to something. Grounding doesn't stop a mechanic from doing what it it's suppose to be doing True stealth does exactly that Besides that we ALREADY have a mechanic that stops people from seeing you, just use stealth! What's the problem of removing true stealth? This isn't being selective, I'm clearly showing you my view of point with examples. If you call being selective as "having an opinion about something" then yeah I guess I'm "selective"? Grounding doesn't operate the same way true stealth does. Whats next? D = Mega true Sight E = Mega true Stealth F = Omega Mega true Sight G = Omega Mega true Stealth Is this the path you want League to follow? This is the literal definition of powercreep and if you tell me now that "they would never do this" well they just fucking did the first step! What makes you sure they wont continue climbing the ladder?
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7nZ0hMom,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-22T07:51:14.270+0000) > > I still don&#x27;t understand how are you telling me I&#x27;m cherry picking when I gave you examples of every possible topic.... Because you're selective on what to be outraged about. > Look, you mentioned the grounding effect, it counters mobility. League did not have a specific counter to mobility (other than point and click cc spells) because it didn&#x27;t need it back then. > Then every champ started to get a dash and all of a sudden it&#x27;s pretty important to counter that so the grounding effect was born. And? It's still an example of something coming into the game where there's no precedent of that existing, and thus "It has no grounds being made". > The mechanic in a nutshell doesn&#x27;t do anything else but interact with what it suppose to interact, so it is a good approach. Oh so NOW it's a good approach because it "doesn't do anything but interact with what it's supposed to". ANY sort of buff/debuff effect does the same thing. Obscure ONLY makes Akali obscure. It doesn't blow you up for 500 damage if you sit to the north of it for 2.48 seconds, nor does it make your turret walk 29 Teemos to the left. You keep failing to realize exactly why this "point" is hogwash. > The approach to Kalista R / TK devour was also good in a way that the mechanic in theory also only interacts with what it should be, to protect an ally. Kalista's R is an offensive spell with a defensive twist that can save someone while locking down enemy champs, but it's a GOOD design? Meanwhile Akali's shroud, that doesn't disable anyone's ability to just walk away from the shroud, is bad design? See what I mean? I'm unbiased enough to say Kalista's design as a whole is a mess. Kench is..."eh", but Kali's a mess. Idk what you're doing. > Unfortunately making someone completely untargetable for several seconds while that very same ally didn&#x27;t even use their own escape spell is just too powerful of an effect. > The intention was good but the mechanic takes too much of a power-budget to work. > > Then you come to mechanics like Kalista passive / Zoe spellthief / Akali shroud > These mechanics directly counteract with an already existing mechanic > > Constantly auto attacking with high attack speed nets to insane damage output for ADCs, that is why camps like &quot;protect the Kog&quot; existed because he himself cannot protect himself while auto attacking. > > Then Kalista came and DIRECTLY ignored that mechanic that was built up for a reason and what do you know, it was a damn disaster. Look, it's like 5 in the morning when I'm typing this response. I just beat Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey Redux on hard mode at 4:20 AM on the dot, the DANKEST time to beat this shit, after going at that damn final boss for like a week or so since it's so excessively bullshit. So, I'ma keep this relatively short since this quote sort of captures my issue with your post and why I said your biased. Kalista's passive **is a dash.** Dashes are mechanics that have existed in this game since FOREVER. You said the same thing about how "Bard's ult takes from Zhonya's, which exists in the game already". By YOUR definition, or at least by the definition that this thread is combating if this isn't actually your stance on the matter, Kalista's passive is "ok design" because it doesn't "Break the rules of the game". Is this true? FUCK NO. Kalista's passive is an insane problem, but the point I'm making is that this notion of hiding behind "the rules of the game" to make a case about champ kits we just don't like is **bullshit.** A champ kit being good or bad isn't so because someone arbitrarily outlines what they think the "core fundamental mechanics that shan't be betrayed" in League are, nor is it because "Mark Merril said you can't add new effects to the game". Stop all that. Let me reiterate: I'm not saying I like EVERY new design in the game, or that we don't agree on anything at all. I'm saying that "What defines if a kit is sound or not is NOT 'if they broke da rulez of da game'". That's a weak argument.
> Because you're selective on what to be outraged about. I gave you precise explanations on every argument I made. If I understand what you wrote right then we even agree on 2 topics out of 3 I still don't know how this is selective > And? It's still an example of something coming into the game where there's no precedent of that existing, and thus "It has no grounds being made". > > Oh so NOW it's a good approach because it "doesn't do anything but interact with what it's supposed to". ANY sort of buff/debuff effect does the same thing. Obscure ONLY makes Akali obscure. It doesn't blow you up for 500 damage if you sit to the north of it for 2.48 seconds, nor does it make your turret walk 29 Teemos to the left. You keep failing to realize exactly why this "point" is hogwash. You misunderstand what I wrote The grounding mechanic doesn't directly stop what another mechanic tries to do It just stops people dashing. If there was a mechanic called "true dash" that stops what grounding tries to do then that mechanic would be trash and powercreep Aka true stealth, it just stops what true sight is trying to do. It counters the every same thing it should be countered by. This is trash design Also you still haven't answered me why it can't be normal stealth > Kalista's R is an offensive spell with a defensive twist that can save someone while locking down enemy champs, but it's a GOOD design? Meanwhile Akali's shroud, that doesn't disable anyone's ability to just walk away from the shroud, is bad design? > > See what I mean? I'm unbiased enough to say Kalista's design as a whole is a mess. Kench is..."eh", but Kali's a mess. Idk what you're doing. No it's not good design The approach and general idea when introducing the mechanic was done good in a sense that it operates the same way grounding does. Never said it's good design. I also never said her shroud in general is bad design, I'm complaining about the true stealth aspect from it. Though fucking reduce the duration it's annoying as hell but that's another topic Anyway you are now starting to talk about kits and spells so let me pin point down what we disagree with You love mechanical powercreep, you want to have "Omega Mega Ultra Xeno True Sight" in the future while I hate mechanical powercreep. IMO True Stealth brings nothing positive to the table and should be swapped to normal stealth ASAP before some BS champion comes along that counters true stealth.
: Here's the thing: I could go tit for tat with this response of yours (and I was in the process of doing so, then deleted it), but it basically boils down to you splitting hairs and picking favorites between which mechanics and designs you personally feel are less annoying, which is why I said you were biased to begin with. Like, really, you think MORELLO of all people specifically made the statement that League couldn't introduce new ailments/buffs? You're many things I won't say, but biased is putting it lightly. The fact of the matter is, if Riot does things the way you suggest (which is how they've been doing things till relatively recently), we have more situations where we have Amumu/Sej/Gragas, where everyone's super clumped up in strategic purpose because they all do 3 flavors of the same shit. Sometimes you can make a new design out of largely preexisting parts, but that doesn't mean we just up and shit on a design that adds something new to the game. Poppy was the first design to be built around countering mobility *specifically,* and with that we got the grounding effect. *No one had it before,* but no one decided to flip shit over it when it was added, probs cause it's cc that largely doesn't effect a ton of different champs for very long (just walk out of it). There's *plenty* of things that aren't done the way anyone else does them. Why we have to whine and pout over specific cases and hide behind the faulty notion of "It breakz da rulez" is beyond me.
I still don't understand how are you telling me I'm cherry picking when I gave you examples of every possible topic.... Look, you mentioned the grounding effect, it counters mobility. League did not have a specific counter to mobility (other than point and click cc spells) because it didn't need it back then. Then every champ started to get a dash and all of a sudden it's pretty important to counter that so the grounding effect was born. The mechanic in a nutshell doesn't do anything else but interact with what it suppose to interact, so it is a good approach. The approach to Kalista R / TK devour was also good in a way that the mechanic in theory also only interacts with what it should be, to protect an ally. Unfortunately making someone completely untargetable for several seconds while that very same ally didn't even use their own escape spell is just too powerful of an effect. The intention was good but the mechanic takes too much of a power-budget to work. Then you come to mechanics like Kalista passive / Zoe spellthief / Akali shroud These mechanics directly counteract with an already existing mechanic Constantly auto attacking with high attack speed nets to insane damage output for ADCs, that is why camps like "protect the Kog" existed because he himself cannot protect himself while auto attacking. Then Kalista came and DIRECTLY ignored that mechanic that was built up for a reason and what do you know, it was a damn disaster. True Stealth DIRECTLY ignores True sight. It's a counter to a counter that should be countering stealth. The very same thing happened with bramble vest. Counter to tanks is Fiora, tank gets bramble vest and counters Fiora, dafuq is that? Now you need to inflate Fioras numbers so she beats tanks again but in the meantime every other opponent that doesn't need bramble also HAS to get it otherwise they are fucked to the inflated numbers Fiora. The mechanic True Stealth CANNOT spread to other champions designs because it doesn't have a counter since it is a counter to a counter. You would need a counter to a counter to a counter to stop True Stealth, something like Mega True Sight. This is called powercreep in a mechanical level and it only destroys the game. It adds something new but the game doesn't benefit from it. A counter to a counter is retarted and pls tell me how Akali just can't have normal stealth? Compensate it with some base stats for all I care. Whats next? Are we giving tanks true damage reduction items to counter Conq and IE that are designed to counter them? Oh, also the insane amount of ture damage lately is also power creep and needs to be dealth with before true damage reduction comes in. > Why we have to whine and pout over specific cases and hide behind the faulty notion of "It breakz da rulez" is beyond me. My dude, if a mechanic is trash design or just powercreeps the game it needs to be reworked or removed. If a mechanic is completely new and good then I don't have a problem with it. The ammo mechanic is one of my favorites out there. You come in here and just praise everything new, thinking it's also good. No it doesn't have to be. Sometimes new isn't always good. Look at the rune system, it looks good but it's a steaming pile of shit balance wise.
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7nZ0hMom,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-09-21T09:43:16.536+0000) > > You can create new things without breaking 12 design philosophies while doing so. > > The challenge of creating new champs should be to create new mechanics with the already existing mechanics in the game > > Take GP for example. His barrels are just plain and stupid AOE damage but the whole barrel mechanic is something new that only belongs to him and doesn&#x27;t make him some generic AOE AD mage. You say all this but I don't see a single champ in the game with a healing cleanse and bonus gold value just for cs'ing. > Thats a good way of introducing new stuff > Now look at Akali > > &quot;sHe CaNoT bE SeEN hUrR DuRR&quot; I mean, you're blatantly wrong but how many times can a man say "Unable to be targeted DOES NOT MEAN unable to be damaged"? > That&#x27;s lazy design and it breaks philosophies that were buit up for a reason. You can't target *anyone* in stealth. Hell, ever since the stealth changes **You couldn't target Akali via pinks, anyway.** The ONLY thing that changed was using targeted abilities under turret. That's LITERALLY the only thing, and THIS is the hill we lay down and die on? This, when we have Pyke that literally *gives full kill gold value to people that got assists?* Or how Bard can just *Zhonyas entire teams, allies and enemies alike, from semi-global ranges, against their will?* Or TK who can just *up and grab someone, then run away with them while you can't hit them because they're inside him?* We say "This is too much" on the obscured effect? Really? Hell, even Ivern can turn 1 jg buff into 2, as well as just make a fucking bush anywhere on the map, but you guys get your panties in a bunch about "the RulES" over an assassin that *isn't even a threat until Diamond elo.* > Sure it&#x27;s &quot;new&quot; but it isn&#x27;t good for the game as a whole. > > Pyke is another example of a unique champ that was made from already existing mechanics. He *literally* turns a kill with an assist into 2 separate solo kills. That's a 50% kill value increase, just by virtue of being Pyke. How's that not "BReaKIng The FUNdAmenTalS" of gold distribution? > Zoe is another example of trash and lazy design. Not gonna bother. > Jhin is another good example (broken with the current runes/items) I mean, if anything, more marksmen should have ammo mechanics but I'm not on that rn. > Kalista is trash design Well duh. > See where I&#x27;m going? Yeah, you're biased. You play champs that aren't as innovative in design, look at those champs, and get upset about it without truly weighing just how influential they actually are in your matches or why. Like I said before: Who died and wrote down "New mechanics must solely be derived from old mechanics" as the final decree of LoL design? LoL always brings in new things, but you guys are just hyper sensitive to damage-oriented ones.
> You say all this but I don't see a single champ in the game with a healing cleanse and bonus gold value just for cs'ing. There is you know... cleanse... Or the 2 items that cleanse Or the other champions that have a built in cleanse like Alistar The heal is just a heal, one of oldest mechanics in the entire game Now you put them together in a clever way and tadaa you have GP oranges, an ability only he has access to, created with already existing mechanics. TF also gets bonus gold for cs-ing Pyke gets bonus gold for killing people with ult Getting bonus gold was a mechanic on an item called "Avarice blade" The coin/targons support item also gives you gold just for cs-ing in a sense Again, the mechanics were already in the game but they were put together into his Q and potential to get more value through barrels -> Good design > I mean, you're blatantly wrong but how many times can a man say "Unable to be targeted DOES NOT MEAN unable to be damaged"? There is not a single other champion in the entire game that has true stealth Nor has there ever been a champion with that mechanic It's something league has never seen and for good reason because if it was a thing then what the hell is true sight here for It just screws up the game the same way easily accessable GW screws with heal-powerbudgets We don't need it, it's literally only on one champion in the entire games history, just remove it and put normal stealth on it so it fits with the rest of the mechanics in the game that have been balanced the past decade Lazy design it's what it is There sure as hell was a way to just make it a stealth and compensate it elsewhere but the designer wanted to have an easy job > You can't target anyone in stealth. Hell, ever since the stealth changes You couldn't target Akali via pinks, anyway. The ONLY thing that changed was using targeted abilities under turret. That's LITERALLY the only thing, and THIS is the hill we lay down and die on? This, when we have Pyke that literally gives full kill gold value to people that got assists? Or how Bard can just Zhonyas entire teams, allies and enemies alike, from semi-global ranges, against their will? Or TK who can just up and grab someone, then run away with them while you can't hit them because they're inside him? We say "This is too much" on the obscured effect? Really? > > Hell, even Ivern can turn 1 jg buff into 2, as well as just make a fucking bush anywhere on the map, but you guys get your panties in a bunch about "the RulES" over an assassin that isn't even a threat until Diamond elo. Yes that is what stealth is here for so why does she need true stealth? So she is "UnIqUe" or what? Also TF ult / Lee reveal etc. grant true sight. They counter stealth but haha jokes on you Akali has true stealth now! Stop beating around the bush, she doesn't need it and you know very well that she doesn't Pyke giving full kill gold is an adaptation (a big one) to the already mentioned gold generation mechanics we used to have in the game. It's a pretty new thing but still leans on existing mechanics. The game has never seen true stealth in Akalis case, it's literally 100% out of the blue new and thus, there is no counter to it. Bard R is literally just the zhonyeas mechanic, or Lissandra R without damage on AOE. It was already here, it just got changed. Also Bard is a pretty well designed champion even though he introduced the wall mechanic. THAT one was a completely new one since league had never any mechanic concerning traveling through walls (excluding dashes). It was a risky shot but it came out well and spawned new champions/design with that mechanic (Kayn / Talon) Yeah that one is an example of a completely new mechanic introduced into the game and coming out well at the end. The TK thing is already a problem I don't know what you are talking about, that one is just trash design. Same with Kalista R, the mechanic doesn't work. Ivern is a special case in that his mechanic cannot be used in different designs, it's literally just him that can use it. Also I don't care how viable Akali is in any elo, if a mechanic/design is trash then it's trash Look at Kalista, she is nowhere viable but still a problem. > He literally turns a kill with an assist into 2 separate solo kills. That's a 50% kill value increase, just by virtue of being Pyke. How's that not "BReaKIng The FUNdAmenTalS" of gold distribution? Pretty simple, TF and GP can generate as much gold with their gold generation mechanic, also support items generate that much gold easily but that's kind of another thing. Just think of it as a support item built in a spell It's already there, it's being used everywhere, it's included pretty clever into a kit > I mean, if anything, more marksmen should have ammo mechanics but I'm not on that rn. This is exactly what you should be commenting about because it's literally your point The ammo mechanic is also a completely new mechanic to league It was a risky move to add it but it came out well and now champions are starting to gain that mechanics in their designs. Graves/Jhin/Xayah all have ammo mechanics. It's a good mechanic, I don't have problems with new mechanics being added if they actually support the game in a good and meaningful way. True stealth doesn't accomplish either > Well duh. Her autos are also a new mechanic Since the beggining of league if you wanted to auto attack constantly you had to sit still Now Kalista comes in and says "nah fuck that" and it gets her down to a 43% WR. This is a BAD mechanic and trash design, main reason why riot has given up on that concept and they just have to rework her now > Yeah, you're biased. You play champs that aren't as innovative in design, look at those champs, and get upset about it without truly weighing just how influential they actually are in your matches or why. > > Like I said before: Who died and wrote down "New mechanics must solely be derived from old mechanics" as the final decree of LoL design? LoL always brings in new things, but you guys are just hyper sensitive to damage-oriented ones. Biased where? I gave you 2 examples on good new mechanics being added into the game and 3 examples of bad new mechanics and 3 examples of unique mechanics being created from existing ones. There isn't a single thing I haven't given you an example about You mean Morello? If anything I wish he came back and the current "balance" team would just fuck off and rename themselfes to change team because that's all they are doing. Season 8 has been a complete disaster because Riot just thinks "innovative and new" equals fun and enjoyable. No it fucking doesn't
: X champion breaks all the rules of the game
You can create new things without breaking 12 design philosophies while doing so. The challenge of creating new champs should be to create new mechanics with the already existing mechanics in the game Take GP for example. His barrels are just plain and stupid AOE damage but the whole barrel mechanic is something new that only belongs to him and doesn't make him some generic AOE AD mage. Thats a good way of introducing new stuff Now look at Akali "sHe CaNoT bE SeEN hUrR DuRR" That's lazy design and it breaks philosophies that were buit up for a reason. Sure it's "new" but it isn't good for the game as a whole. Pyke is another example of a unique champ that was made from already existing mechanics. Zoe is another example of trash and lazy design. Jhin is another good example (broken with the current runes/items) Kalista is trash design See where I'm going?
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WrQJyMtO,comment-id=000200010001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-14T10:48:27.872+0000) > > It&#x27;s literally the only reason I even spoke up in this post and I have provided around 4 reasons on why I think so throughout this whole conversation. > -More safety in laning phase makes her harder to punish > -Increased sticking potential makes it harder for people to get away from her which increases comeback potential > -Increased mobility which makes it harder to punish her and also aiding her to come back easier and faster > -The lack of a meaningful weakness of hers How is she any safer in lane aside from anything except her increased auto range? Q moves in the exact way as the old one in regards to minions, W is only relevant if she sees a big hit coming. E stun? IF she hits it its basically the same as before but shorter. > New Q is able to be cast 3 times and also heals her. Provided you fail to actually stop or interrupt her dashing around. Many champs are fully capable of this. > You were also able to play around her old stun > You needed more thinking than &quot;just dodge&quot; to counter it, also most melees in the laning phase didn&#x27;t two shits when getting stunned by it. Man what? You dont "play around" a point and click stun that lasts for 2 seconds with 2,8 seconds downtime later on..... she either hits you with it and started auto attacking with W up and ulting for sheenprocs or she hit you with it and ran away, nothing else. > Darius didn&#x27;t care, if Ielia didn&#x27;t run away the moment she stunned him she was boned. > Same goes for a lot of other top champs. Old Irelia actually beat Darius in the laning phase if she played it well, particularly her lvl 6 with a sheen could actually kill him faster than he could her x) She only lost post 2 items. > What it was fatal against was squishy stuff and ranged stuff, getting stunned there hurt you a lot. > > **Clear weakness** When her W isnt up she is still just as squishy as before, if her Q resets gets stopped she has a longer time without mobility and her E is slow to the point where anyone with phage and boots can outrun it. > These are all Assassins (other than Yasuo) and have other stuff Irelia doesn&#x27;t have to worry about. > Yasuo is something else. > Stop her dash with what? Dying? CC maybe? Pretty sure the majority of the toplaners has some of it. > 50% damage reduction doesn&#x27;t do much? > What? Its simple really, it doesnt really deal any significant damage and she cant really hit you when she activates it. So all you do is auto attack while she uses it then unload on her.......or in some cases you can just burst right through and ignore it. > She doesn&#x27;t need to dodge anything compared to Yi since she cannot be interrupted. But unlike Yi she doesnt heal a metric ton when she uses her W, this is a pretty awful example. Use Fiora´s W if you want to be a bit more close for comparison, or warwicks E. > It&#x27;s like a wannabe Zhonyeas with damage ontop of it. DUDE WHAT. Zhonya breaks off all damage, and prevents EVERYTHING from hitting you. Irelia gets 50% damage reduction and doesnt remove anything that is already in progress like Darius passive or black cleaver stacks. If anything its a downgraded Fiora W. > Cleanse/QSS and it&#x27;s still 4.8 seconds later, not 2.8 You need to use your head a bit. If she pops the stun on you and it lasts 2 seconds.....how much is left of the 4,8 seconds? > I explained multiple times why it&#x27;s bad > Reduces weaknesses to exploit. She had no weaknesses and no real or lasting strengths either, her kit was shit. > And no, champs like these are not completely useless. > Their design would be a powerspike in a certain game time, that powerspike hits no matter what, with how much strength and how well you use that powerspike is now up to the player. Except the full trinity powerspike was waaaay overstated. What made Irelia´s lvl 11 with trinity fking disgusting was trinity+true damage auto´s on high speed and the short CD stun/slow. It was nowhere near as potent as Akali on gunblade in terms of powerspikes. > That is most propably her mid lane performance, where she is suboptimal to play anyway. ......Did you like....not complain about her bullying mages midlane? Decide for heavens sake what you are bothered about. Neither Swain nor Lissandra are actually good toplane anymore, hasnt been in a long time so no wonder she beats them. > Champion.GG shows the top performance against Swain and Lissandra in which she completely dominates both. For crists sake you were complaining about midlane! > No, dragon fights do not require the whole team being there and if the whole enemy team is there it opens up splitpush paths. A good split in this situation can get you up to 2 towers. Except dragon fights start after the first jungle clear. You gona knock down the enemy tower with a dorans blade and ignite 6 minutes in? > This game isn&#x27;t just 5 v 5 deathball until game ends. Actually 5v5 deathball is the easiest way to win......if either team can reliably smash fights then the game is in their bag and forcing fights has never been easier. Nor has towerdiving. > Well it did happen because that Xin played like an ape, nothing more and nothing less to the story. And one awful player is good as a example how exactly? Examples of a 1v1 should consider the contestants to be even in skill or its not much of a fight........ > Never said jungle is fault on losing the pressure. Also Warwick will still slaughter that Lee, it&#x27;s Warwick. Have you actually seen what happens when lee gets ahead? Especially now that people are using dark harvest more and more? WW gets his face smashed early and doesnt comeback before lee ends the game. > It&#x27;s also the supports job to get wards on objectives, not only jungle. And when can they actually do this? If your team botlane loses lane pressure then your support might not get a warding support item until like 12 minutes into the game. I can on shyv start taking dragons .....i think its like 6-7 minutes in? > You said that, I never did. Except you did. >0/5 Urgot is a joke >0/5 Darius is a joke >0/5 pre lvl 13 GP is a joke > >But naaaaaahh >0/5 Irelia is still a threat It was also you who stated that people in NB played for fun or trying out random shit borderline trolling (stormrazor cho?). It was you who claimed that she is unhittable with her Q resets and W is too powerful. > Only thing I told you is that setting her back isn&#x27;t rewarded equally as with other champions How exactly? She is raped by pretty much any melee toplaner, never comes back against them. She is completely helpless against any mage that can stop or avoid her Q. > Also yeah lemme just pull out my soul-stone to read peoples minds playing NB. > You have as much data to prove that they aren&#x27;t playing casually. Its really easy to prove they were playing seriously, just look at any site that shows the pickrates and most powerful picks and you´ll see that people were picking the most powerful champs they knew most of the time........playing to win, win and win some more. Playing seriously in other words. Except Nunu i guess, he was still new and so people were kinda playing around with his AP build there a lot.........it did work though. > Logically seen, there will be more casuals in NB than in ranked SR You can play seriously and still not be tryharding to hell and back.-.......... > With that statement, her winrate in mid should be higher.... since you know... top is the lane with the most melees. Ignorant this is. Irelia is a counterpick towards ranged champs&shield users and she is also pretty good at securing jungle ganks........and toplane is a long exposed lane. So naturally if people use her as a counterpick to heimer/vayne/Ornn/gnar/jayce which she is made to then naturally her winrates shoot up because she gets to be very strong in the games she is played in. If played midlane she gets thrown into a shorter lane where its easier to hide under tower and escape jungle attention and there is a high % of assassins and burstmages around......also extremely long ranged mages who are hard to ever reach without going under their towers. > I also never said that she is OP, just told you, that when putting her behind she will get back on her feet faster than other champions. > Also that she lacks weaknesses. Her weaknesses is her extreme reliant on her passive, her Q reset chain and that she is so reliant on her W.......you can dodge her E too. > The same syndrome is seen in Camille, she is being called a &quot;generalist&quot; for a reason. Just good into any scenario, same with irelia but less extreme. Camilie is way worse than Irelia is, her Q deals like 900 true damage on the second proc with short downtimes, her gapcloser is massive and ulti cant be avoided at all unless you have a zhonya like effect. Her only "skillshot" the E is honestly harder to miss than it is to hit...... > Orianna has that problem too, main reason she was a stable pick for mid for so long until everything started one-shotting eachother. Midlane was oneshotting eachother since the mage rework and even more so since the assassin rework. What made her good was the fact that she was a solid laner or even powerful in some matchups and was and is a powerful teamfight pick in good hands. Her issue is that teamfights with proper frontlines and tanks are much more uncommon and lanebullies run on steroids.
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WrQJyMtO,comment-id=0002000100010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-14T13:16:45.472+0000) > How is she any safer in lane aside from anything except her increased auto range? > > Q moves in the exact way as the old one in regards to minions, W is only relevant if she sees a big hit coming. > > E stun? IF she hits it its basically the same as before but shorter. Even if all I said was bullshit You just said it yourself, increased auto range. I completely forgot about that one. She can use the damage reduction on big hits or any hit on that matter. So there you have it, it is safer AKA she survives more stuff than she should be. > Man what? > > You dont "play around" a point and click stun that lasts for 2 seconds with 2,8 seconds downtime later on..... she either hits you with it and started auto attacking with W up and ulting for sheenprocs or she hit you with it and ran away, nothing else It didn't always stun you You were able to play around that fact that she couldn't use a spell for a while or use it for less efficiency while you had your whole kit. > Old Irelia actually beat Darius in the laning phase if she played it well, particularly her lvl 6 with a sheen could actually kill him faster than he could her x) No she didn't Also stop saying "if she plays well" Yes of course if Darius is an ape he will lose but generally seen Darus had the upper hand in this lane. > Its simple really, it doesnt really deal any significant damage and she cant really hit you when she activates it. > > So all you do is auto attack while she uses it then unload on her.......or in some cases you can just burst right through and ignore it. Ok then remove the spell and move the anti shield mechanic from her passive to her W Since the current W doesn't do much we can just remove it and clean her kit up a bit no? "I never said it's useless" Stop acting like it doesn't do much, 50% damage reduction and cc immunity is insane and Yi would kill to have that spell. > You need to use your head a bit. > > If she pops the stun on you and it lasts 2 seconds.....how much is left of the 4,8 seconds? C L E A N S E / Q S S What happens when you C L E A N S E a stun? Oh yeah right you actually don't have to wait the entire 2 seconds. > She had no weaknesses and no real or lasting strengths either, her kit was shit. Well she doesn't have them right now either so it's still shit. > ......Did you like....not complain about her bullying mages midlane? Decide for heavens sake what you are bothered about. > > Neither Swain nor Lissandra are actually good toplane anymore, hasnt been in a long time so no wonder she beats them. Never said anything about mid lane in particular, mid lane is too short for Irelia to operate. What I said is that she can 1 v 1 mages easier than before then you came up with some statistics of mid champions and I told you that mid lane is suboptimal for her so having less WR against these champs is normal. I never complained about mid > Except dragon fights start after the first jungle clear. > > You gona knock down the enemy tower with a dorans blade and ignite 6 minutes in? Well if the enemy laner TP's down and all 5 enemies are there you have like a whole minute for yourself to get the first blood tower. > Actually 5v5 deathball is the easiest way to win......if either team can reliably smash fights then the game is in their bag and forcing fights has never been easier. > > Nor has towerdiving. And thats bad and a big factor why this season is shit and why so many people are leaving > And one awful player is good as a example how exactly? Examples of a 1v1 should consider the contestants to be even in skill or its not much of a fight........ Kind of ironic to tell me that when you used the term "if Irelia plays well" in the same comment Anyway, that statement of mine was directed to the question "do you realize when your own team makes mistakes" And yes, if my Xin plays like an ape I will realize it. > And when can they actually do this? If your team botlane loses lane pressure then your support might not get a warding support item until like 12 minutes into the game. > > I can on shyv start taking dragons .....i think its like 6-7 minutes in? Also the same thing as above, if bot loses pressure I realize it and know bot shat the bed > It was also you who stated that people in NB played for fun or trying out random shit borderline trolling (stormrazor cho?). > > It was you who claimed that she is unhittable with her Q resets and W is too powerful. Never did, the "0/5" comment was directed to her faster comeback and relevance when behind (compared to other champs) That comments wasn't here to tell Irelia was OP I also nowhere claimed that Cho went stormrazer in NB That comment was made to your question if I realize when people do mistakes. Also never said that she is unhittable, just told you that her POTENTIAL to dodge stuff has increased. Or what she is immortal, just that her POTENTIAL to survive has increased Both of which make it harder for opponents to set Irelia behind and once behind makes it so she has an easier time to get back That is what I told you. You need to clear your head up or re-read the conversation. > How exactly? > > She is raped by pretty much any melee toplaner, never comes back against them. > > She is completely helpless against any mage that can stop or avoid her Q. You ask me this question for the third time now and my answer is still the same. "Raped by any melee top laner" LUL If that was the case she would be a mid laner for good but looks like it isn't. On what does a mage do to avoid her Q? Is that the "just dodge it bro" argument again? > You can play seriously and still not be tryharding to hell and back.-.......... NB will have more casuals than serious players than ranked SR 5 v 5 You can tell me what you want, it's literally only logical. Also I don't know how this is important anyway > So naturally if people use her as a counterpick to heimer/vayne/Ornn/gnar/jayce which she is made to then naturally her winrates shoot up because she gets to be very strong in the games she is played in. Literally haven't seen these champs other than Gnar in top for the past 60 games or so. And I have seen 1 Gnar in those 60 games.
: tfw you main {{champion:161}} so you never have to worry about nerfs
To be honest, Vel'Koz is the only champion I can think of that has never caused any problems since release
l MrD l (NA)
: when new game modes come out
if the arguments were to be introduced into the real game then that system will be balanced and fixed by season 28 No thanks, it looks fun but it wont be fun with the current balance team.
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WrQJyMtO,comment-id=0002000100010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-14T07:25:26.660+0000) > > Yes and that limit is higher for Irelia than it is for other champions How exactly? Just where are you getting this idea from? > An ult that can be bodyblocked? > So eating it straight to your face is counterplay to you? Lets be real, it doesnt do that much 1v1 against another melee and in teamfights having a tank bodyblock it and the backline be ready to get her when she flies in shuts her down hard. A ranged who cant kill her as quickly as say Syndra, LB, Ahri are just not supposed to fight her just the same as they arent supposed to fight assassins. > It doesn&#x27;t matter anyway since the ult spreads after hitting someone and still hitting the guy behind the guy that &quot;bodyblocked&quot; the ult. > Q has 8 seconds cd > E has 10 seconds cd > Old Q had 6 seconds cd > Old stun had 8 seconds cd > So at the cost of 2 seconds each (1.2 seconds at 40% CDR) she got the ability to stun multiple people at range and dash multiple times without needing to kill the opponent. And in return her old Q had 50 more range and a 120% AD ratio and 55 more base damage. E wasnt a point and click stun, meaning far more champs can actually play around the current one more than "dont go into melee vs her". > Then we gave her a better ult that let&#x27;s her dash around even more Which is no worse than yasou, Talon, wukong, Zed, ahri,fizz, katarina, Kassadin or even Kassadin jumping around. And you can actually stop her dash unlike they who go invisible/blink or other things. > Another safety net that cannot be interrupted with cc She still dies easily with it up and she cant dodge anything when using it. 50% damage reduction doesnt actually do much post 3 items unless she has a lot of resistances which she doesnt build. > Old one had to do that too, actually the old one had a harder time since she didn&#x27;t have a % damage reduction spell. How many champs actually have a super telegraphed keyspell they must land in a short range scenario? > Old one was easier to punish when she did mistakes and you were able to exploit actual weaknesses of hers. Old one would rush in, point and click stun your face for 2 seconds and do so again 2,8 seconds later and hit you with her ulti to get easy sheen procs while auto attacking with W up for free damage and healing. > And by that time the mage got away or Irelia is dead. Irelia needs 5 seconds to do a combo using sheen properly......i´d like to see a mage who cant manage to do anything in this timeframe. > What I&#x27;m saying is that she has higher chances to survive the early game in cases where she shouldn&#x27;t compared to pre-rework one. And how is this bad? A champ that cant get through laning phase alright while made to spike in her midgame is completely useless? It would be exactly like old akali whom you could seriously kill 3 times in lane but the moment she got gunblade she could easily 100-0 any squishy target. > Irelia has a 59.89% winrate against Lissandra > Irelia has a 56.44% winrate against Swain > > I don&#x27;t have data on the other 3 but I&#x27;m pretty sure she also fucks over those too when Lissandra isn&#x27;t able to keep her at bay. 48,6% against Ahri sample size of 860 games. 47% winrate against malz 290 games. 48,5% against LB 608 games. Goes even with ori. 46%winrate against Swain 142 games, She does apparently beat lissandra.......one can only wonder how when she gets smashed by malz even if she wins lane against him. Also, bad winrates into cassio and vlad- > No it&#x27;s not easy to land anything on her, especially not key-spells that are generally harder to hit. Like......if you know where she is going the moment she pops the Q how hard can it be to hit her? Its like hitting Akali when she uses E on you......she dashes in a straight line towards you. > Ah there it is, &quot;jUsT DoDGe bRO&quot; > No, just because it&#x27;s dodgeable doesn&#x27;t mean it&#x27;s good design if that would be the case then we shouldn&#x27;t be changing Zoe. Except there is a massive, fat difference between Irelia and Zoe. Zoe kills you with E-Q alone, nearly instantly from massive range on a 10 seconds cooldown. Irelia dashes forward into your face in a predetermined path and needs 5 seconds to do a proper combo. > No splitpush strategies, generally seen everything is focused around a 5 v 5 deathball. > Almost all the events require you to be there with your team. Splitpush is largely dead in SR too...... Dragon fights need you to be with your team if your enemy laner is too, cant let enemies secure infernal drakes and early oceans for nothing and if you take their tower too early as a toplaner then you basically lose the right to farm x) > I could understand that but it is happening on Xin (our side) vs Rammus (enemy). Unless rammus got off 2 free early ganks and got ahead this doesnt happen. And if he did then your laners screwed Xin over and its not his responsibility anymore. > AKA somebody hasn&#x27;t done their job right and lost pressure for their team. A quick look at the lanes will tell you who it is. Lost pressure?! Do you even jungle! The jungle fight is over and done the moment either jungle gets a kill or two and the other doesnt meanwhile, or if either one secures both scuttlers early. Your WW was taking his blue while enemy lee went and ganked botlane for a double? GG man, botlane just lost you the game and WW is completely useless from here. I completely gave up on any slow junglers and only play the quicker ones like Shyv and Xin myself because of this shit <.< > Like said, you get your occasional try-hard here and there but everyone I know basically went in there with a mindset of > &quot;could crit Rammus work there?&quot; > &quot;What bugs can I find with Mordekaiser&quot; > &quot;I haven&#x27;t played Olaf in a while&quot; > Edit: Darius can still secure his Q with the hook Your issue is that you make a ton of assumptions with nothing to back them up. "Irelia makes it back easily even from 0,5,0!" "80% of the players in NB were trolling or chilling!" ....No facts or data to back this up? "Irelia kills things instantly and is immortal and unhittable! Like if she was even half as OP as this she wouldnt be sitting as such bad/average winrates even with a decent playerbase. And her winrate over time is also nothing impressive for midlane, its instead in the toplane where its any good. And given that her main use as a toplaner is to counter ranged ones i can imagine why! She snowballs the lane and puts enemies so far behind that they never catch up- Much like many assasssins do to mages these days x)
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WrQJyMtO,comment-id=00020001000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-14T08:46:55.744+0000) > How exactly? Just where are you getting this idea from? It's literally the only reason I even spoke up in this post and I have provided around 4 reasons on why I think so throughout this whole conversation. -More safety in laning phase makes her harder to punish -Increased sticking potential makes it harder for people to get away from her which increases comeback potential -Increased mobility which makes it harder to punish her and also aiding her to come back easier and faster -The lack of a meaningful weakness of hers > And in return her old Q had 50 more range and a 120% AD ratio and 55 more base damage. > > E wasnt a point and click stun, meaning far more champs can actually play around the current one more than "dont go into melee vs her". New Q is able to be cast 3 times and also heals her. You were also able to play around her old stun You needed more thinking than "just dodge" to counter it, also most melees in the laning phase didn't two shits when getting stunned by it. Darius didn't care, if Ielia didn't run away the moment she stunned him she was boned. Same goes for a lot of other top champs. What it was fatal against was squishy stuff and ranged stuff, getting stunned there hurt you a lot. **Clear weakness** > Which is no worse than yasou, Talon, wukong, Zed, ahri,fizz, katarina, Kassadin or even Kassadin jumping around. > > And you can actually stop her dash unlike they who go invisible/blink or other things. These are all Assassins (other than Yasuo) and have other stuff Irelia doesn't have to worry about. Yasuo is something else. Stop her dash with what? Dying? > She still dies easily with it up and she cant dodge anything when using it. > > 50% damage reduction doesnt actually do much post 3 items unless she has a lot of resistances which she doesnt build. 50% damage reduction doesn't do much? What? She doesn't need to dodge anything compared to Yi since she cannot be interrupted. It's like a wannabe Zhonyeas with damage ontop of it. > Old one would rush in, point and click stun your face for 2 seconds and do so again 2,8 seconds later and hit you with her ulti to get easy sheen procs while auto attacking with W up for free damage and healing. Cleanse/QSS and it's still 4.8 seconds later, not 2.8 > And how is this bad? A champ that cant get through laning phase alright while made to spike in her midgame is completely useless? > > It would be exactly like old akali whom you could seriously kill 3 times in lane but the moment she got gunblade she could easily 100-0 any squishy target. I explained multiple times why it's bad Reduces weaknesses to exploit. And no, champs like these are not completely useless. Their design would be a powerspike in a certain game time, that powerspike hits no matter what, with how much strength and how well you use that powerspike is now up to the player. If you completely fuck up the work being done pre-powerspike you don't deserve the full potential the powerspike would have. The "fucking up pre-powerspike" threshhold is bigger on Irelia than on other champions. > 48,6% against Ahri sample size of 860 games. > > 47% winrate against malz 290 games. > > 48,5% against LB 608 games. > > Goes even with ori. > > 46%winrate against Swain 142 games, > > She does apparently beat lissandra.......one can only wonder how when she gets smashed by malz even if she wins lane against him. > > Also, bad winrates into cassio and vlad- That is most propably her mid lane performance, where she is suboptimal to play anyway. Champion.GG shows the top performance against Swain and Lissandra in which she completely dominates both. > Splitpush is largely dead in SR too...... > > Dragon fights need you to be with your team if your enemy laner is too, cant let enemies secure infernal drakes and early oceans for nothing and if you take their tower too early as a toplaner then you basically lose the right to farm x) Yes exactly what I mean with league is losing it's strategy and becoming some clown fiesta 5 v 5 wannabe Battlerite. No, dragon fights do not require the whole team being there and if the whole enemy team is there it opens up splitpush paths. A good split in this situation can get you up to 2 towers. Unless it's like 8 minutes into the game where for sure as hell the tops wont be getting there since most of them use Ignite now. And even if one of the top laner doesn, the other one can secure the FB turret. This game isn't just 5 v 5 deathball until game ends. > Unless rammus got off 2 free early ganks and got ahead this doesnt happen. > > And if he did then your laners screwed Xin over and its not his responsibility anymore. Well it did happen because that Xin played like an ape, nothing more and nothing less to the story. > Lost pressure?! > > Do you even jungle! > > The jungle fight is over and done the moment either jungle gets a kill or two and the other doesnt meanwhile, or if either one secures both scuttlers early. > > Your WW was taking his blue while enemy lee went and ganked botlane for a double? GG man, botlane just lost you the game and WW is completely useless from here. > > I completely gave up on any slow junglers and only play the quicker ones like Shyv and Xin myself because of this shit <.< Never said jungle is fault on losing the pressure. Also Warwick will still slaughter that Lee, it's Warwick. I just told you that a quick look at the lanes and scoreboard will tell you who lost the pressure. It's also the supports job to get wards on objectives, not only jungle. > Your issue is that you make a ton of assumptions with nothing to back them up. > > "Irelia makes it back easily even from 0,5,0!" > > "80% of the players in NB were trolling or chilling!" ....No facts or data to back this up? > > "Irelia kills things instantly and is immortal and unhittable! You said that, I never did. Only thing I told you is that setting her back isn't rewarded equally as with other champions Also yeah lemme just pull out my soul-stone to read peoples minds playing NB. You have as much data to prove that they aren't playing casually. Logically seen, there will be more casuals in NB than in ranked SR > Like if she was even half as OP as this she wouldnt be sitting as such bad/average winrates even with a decent playerbase. > > And her winrate over time is also nothing impressive for midlane, its instead in the toplane where its any good. > > And given that her main use as a toplaner is to counter ranged ones i can imagine why! She snowballs the lane and puts enemies so far behind that they never catch up- > > Much like many assasssins do to mages these days x) With that statement, her winrate in mid should be higher.... since you know... top is the lane with the most melees. oh haha, looks like she is better into melees :) but she also counters ranged... hmmm... "thinking" Some something in the middle will fuck her up real good right? Time to play Thresh top lane? I also never said that she is OP, just told you, that when putting her behind she will get back on her feet faster than other champions. Also that she lacks weaknesses. The same syndrome is seen in Camille, she is being called a "generalist" for a reason. Just good into any scenario, same with irelia but less extreme. Orianna has that problem too, main reason she was a stable pick for mid for so long until everything started one-shotting eachother.
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WrQJyMtO,comment-id=00020001000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-13T19:28:54.950+0000) > > Then trust OP.GG if you want > Champion.GG says its pretty much 50/50 > GP vs Irelia and GP wins the very early game, trust me or not. That he does, but he loses the moment Irelia has ....probably just Sheen and phage, possibly some boots too. > Retarted runes making champions retarted. Compare them to Season 7 state. > They fall off. Pointless to look back, we are here now and i judge thus. > Also Aatrox is pretty good when it comes to winning lanes. > Problem is that it is pretty useless to set the enemy behind when every second champion just pops right the fuck off with 1 item and reaching their &quot;Mid game&quot; powerspike. Aatrox screws anyone who cant dodge his Q, he wins those lanes by default and loses those he cant equally by default. Its kinda extremely stat checky in a way. > Why play Aatrox when you can play Camille, get behind but after finishing Tri just 1 v 1 Aatrox anyway? Believe it or not but there is a limit to how far behind you can afford to get. > I have never seen a single ADC get cleanse JUST for Irelia. How many marksmen have you seen actually deal with her well? Actually instead, how long are your games? Mine tend to end at 4 items and many dont get mercurial for their 4th x) > My dude, new Irelia has exactly ONE more skillshot and it&#x27;s an AOE that passes through terrain and minions. > EVERYTHING else is exactly the same. She has a skillshot, a ulti that can be bodyblocked and cleansed, her stun and ulti have tremendous cooldowns and she is actually punished if the Q reset fails. Old ulti wasnt much of a skillshot to count at any rate. > New Irelia is the exact same crap, you either get hit by the stun and die or dodge the stun. > Oh yeah the stun is also ranged now whereas back then it was at least only melee.... oh and also back then if you cleansed the stun she didn&#x27;t have any other way to gap close, now she also has R if she misses her stun or when you cleanse it. New irelia needs to land her stun, stack her passive, land ulti and time the spellblade procs and not die during that time. She also needs to dodge enemy damage because unlike say WW or Jax she cant just pop her damage resistance and keep fighting like nothing. > Old one had more counterplay than new one. I mained the old one for ages, this current one is far better in terms of counterplay. Once the old one had trinity force and maxed E+Q she had like 3 seconds cooldown on both........a 2 seconds targeted stun and a dash that did a lot of damage given its short CD. > I gave you an example of what horribly useless means. Mordekaiser is so badly damaged that he is useless as a example, please select someone else x) > If you what another example, literally 90% of the entire ADC roster is horribly useless when behind. Not true? Marksmen are ridiculously (In)famous for falling behind, farming up 2 items then wrecking the shit out of everyone anyway. As long as they dont get completely smashed and just go down 2 kills its fine. > Cleanse :) 2 seconds stun comes again 3 second later, what will you do now? > Old one wasnt feast and famine, you set her behind and she stood behind until like 3+ items where she scaled back. .....Did you like, ever play the old one? She was, by far, one of the most useless melee picks post 3 items. Look at the competition! {{champion:24}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:23}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:78}} {{champion:157}} All of these beat old Irelia post 3 items, they either got so tanky with added damage that she could not kill them or they simply smashed her face right in with superior scaling. Old Irelia´s peak was 1-2 items, after that she lost. Go watch some old Gbay video´s (NA Irelia youtuber) for a bit x) > Mordekaiser is feast and famine, where once behind he never gets back. Mordekaiser is truly bad when behind but he also scales really damn well so if his team hangs on he eventually becomes very powerful too. > Ok then let&#x27;s just remove it until she is level 10! > Since you are still acting like it doesn&#x27;t do anything in the early game we might as well just remove it no? > Since it&#x27;s useless anyway right? Im not saying its useless, what i am saying is that it has counterplay for a thinking opponent. > I meant her stun, W I think it is. E is the stun. > LB is an assassin not a mage and Syndra is a pretty specific case of a burst mage with a reliable way of hitting someone / getting rid of someone right infront of her. > Also the 0 counterplay ult of hers which is at the same time also the most damaging spell. Ahri, veigar, ori, swain ,lissandra and malzahar. All these can easily deal with Irelia as well if i am not entirely mistaken? > Most mages have 1 key-spell and if they hit that they can ensure their entire combo, if not everything gets wonky for them. > Irelia can dodge that 1 spell thanks to her numerous dashes. Many mages have a incredible easy time hitting irelia because her entire means of damage puts her ontop of them and she doesnt have the talon lvl of burst. > If she is designed to kill ranged champs then why is she WINNING AGAINST DARIUS! > The guy desgined to murder melees in laning phase? Because he is designed to lose against anyone who can dodge his Q and disengage! But frankly he smashes her lategame . > She lacks any form of significant weakness whereas the old one had pretty clear weaknesses. Dodge her E? Interrupt her combo and bait her W just like a ranged would bait Yas W or someone would fiora W > Because SR isn&#x27;t about just teamfighting until the game is over and it&#x27;s sad to see people calling blitz a sped up version of SR. > Pretty much means SR (or league in general) has lost all strategy. That or you fail to see the similarities. Nexus blitz Midlane is like botlane with 2 people. Nexus botlane is a extremely flexible lane in terms of picks but its often a mix of SR mid or toplane. Duo jungle roaming around is different but the event spawns are like dragon fights with toplaners teleporting in and NB herald is basically Baron. Timewise its much faster so champs lvl and gain gold faster.......summoner spells are back of quicker. > No, I can pretty clearly see my jungler having less cs while having ganked less than the opponents jungler. Does this actually happen unless your jungler in this case is a slow farming tank? > I can clearly see that we have 0 dragons or any vision on the objectives. SR jungle is a competition of who gets ahead early, the winning side has vision rights. > I can clearly see when bot is shitting the bed, same goes for mid or top. But do you see when they miss kills due to stupid mistakes or miss important shots for no reason? > Can pretty clearly see when someone builds Stormrazor on Cho&#x27;Gath ......Most people i played with built seriously,,,,,,think the biggest and only trollcase i saw was a AD zilean but that was it. > A lot of people realize when someone isn&#x27;t doing their job right. Very obvious examples but also kinda extreme,,,,,, > Also I don&#x27;t think people are as competitive in Blitz as they are in a ranked SR. > Blitz was more of a fun mode, some sort of URF if you will. Yes you get your try-harder here and there but most people just play the gamemode casually. People i ran with played very seriously with few exceptions, and those games ended so quickly that they became forgettable. People discussed optimal teamcomps and picks in champ select x)
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WrQJyMtO,comment-id=000200010001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-13T20:26:03.744+0000) > Believe it or not but there is a limit to how far behind you can afford to get. Yes and that limit is higher for Irelia than it is for other champions > She has a skillshot, a ulti that can be bodyblocked and cleansed, her stun and ulti have tremendous cooldowns and she is actually punished if the Q reset fails. > > Old ulti wasnt much of a skillshot to count at any rate. An ult that can be bodyblocked? So eating it straight to your face is counterplay to you? It doesn't matter anyway since the ult spreads after hitting someone and still hitting the guy behind the guy that "bodyblocked" the ult. Q has 8 seconds cd E has 10 seconds cd Old Q had 6 seconds cd Old stun had 8 seconds cd So at the cost of 2 seconds each (1.2 seconds at 40% CDR) she got the ability to stun multiple people at range and dash multiple times without needing to kill the opponent. hmmm... Then we gave her a better ult that let's her dash around even more hmmm... Another safety net that cannot be interrupted with cc hmmm... But at least we reduced the damage right so her risk/reward ratio stays the same?... right? hmmm... > She also needs to dodge enemy damage because unlike say WW or Jax she cant just pop her damage resistance and keep fighting like nothing. Old one had to do that too, actually the old one had a harder time since she didn't have a % damage reduction spell. > I mained the old one for ages, this current one is far better in terms of counterplay. > > Once the old one had trinity force and maxed E+Q she had like 3 seconds cooldown on both........a 2 seconds targeted stun and a dash that did a lot of damage given its short CD. Old one was easier to punish when she did mistakes and you were able to exploit actual weaknesses of hers. Also I posted the Cd's above, they aren't that much shorter compared to now (unless you call 1.2 seconds really long) > Not true? Marksmen are ridiculously (In)famous for falling behind, farming up 2 items then wrecking the shit out of everyone anyway. > > As long as they dont get completely smashed and just go down 2 kills its fine. Game is over by then, welcome to season 8 > 2 seconds stun comes again 3 second later, what will you do now? Not 3 seconds later, at the minimum 4.8 seconds later And by that time the mage got away or Irelia is dead. > Im not saying its useless, what i am saying is that it has counterplay for a thinking opponent. I never said anything else when it comes to early game. What I'm saying is that she has higher chances to survive the early game in cases where she shouldn't compared to pre-rework one. THAT is what I'm complaining about and the dash is 1 factor that enables this. Also the whole "coming back quicker" thing. > Ahri, veigar, ori, swain ,lissandra and malzahar. > > All these can easily deal with Irelia as well if i am not entirely mistaken? Irelia has a 59.89% winrate against Lissandra Irelia has a 56.44% winrate against Swain I don't have data on the other 3 but I'm pretty sure she also fucks over those too when Lissandra isn't able to keep her at bay. > Many mages have a incredible easy time hitting irelia because her entire means of damage puts her ontop of them and she doesnt have the talon lvl of burst. She has 3 dashes No it's not easy to land anything on her, especially not key-spells that are generally harder to hit. > Dodge her E? Interrupt her combo and bait her W just like a ranged would bait Yas W or someone would fiora W Ah there it is, "jUsT DoDGe bRO" No, just because it's dodgeable doesn't mean it's good design if that would be the case then we shouldn't be changing Zoe. > That or you fail to see the similarities. > > Nexus blitz Midlane is like botlane with 2 people. > > Nexus botlane is a extremely flexible lane in terms of picks but its often a mix of SR mid or toplane. > > Duo jungle roaming around is different but the event spawns are like dragon fights with toplaners teleporting in and NB herald is basically Baron. > > Timewise its much faster so champs lvl and gain gold faster.......summoner spells are back of quicker. No splitpush strategies, generally seen everything is focused around a 5 v 5 deathball. Almost all the events require you to be there with your team. No it's anything but a sped up version of SR. If anything it's a sped up version of TT > Does this actually happen unless your jungler in this case is a slow farming tank? I could understand that but it is happening on Xin (our side) vs Rammus (enemy). > SR jungle is a competition of who gets ahead early, the winning side has vision rights. AKA somebody hasn't done their job right and lost pressure for their team. A quick look at the lanes will tell you who it is. > But do you see when they miss kills due to stupid mistakes or miss important shots for no reason? They can miss every skliishot including auto attacks for all I care. I see when their lane is fucked and that is what matters. > ......Most people i played with built seriously,,,,,,think the biggest and only trollcase i saw was a AD zilean but that was it. Ok, I can see whenever my ADC doesn't build stormrazor when he should be. Better? > People i ran with played very seriously with few exceptions, and those games ended so quickly that they became forgettable. > > People discussed optimal teamcomps and picks in champ select x) Like said, you get your occasional try-hard here and there but everyone I know basically went in there with a mindset of "could crit Rammus work there?" "What bugs can I find with Mordekaiser" "I haven't played Olaf in a while" Edit: Darius can still secure his Q with the hook
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WrQJyMtO,comment-id=000200010001000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-13T15:59:19.359+0000) > > No, just mark. Since he can buffer the cc he gets an easier time to mark her. > Even if not marked, when engaging on Urgot you are most propably fighting in HIS minion wave which leaves no other target but you in range for his W, essentially marking you. .......I just realized but urgot is reliant on his W shield isnt he? I think thats the reason Irelia has a posetive winrate into him.....shields just dont work against her and he cant rotate his passive against her well. > If that is the case Irelia is beyond fucking busted. > Darius is an early game lane bully, Irelia is a scaling champion .....Dude i seriously question your game knowledge right now. Early game these days, and for the past 2 seasons, has been everything that happens up to 1-2 items, then people start reaching their powerspikes, especially midgame champs. And Darius winrates are shit until extreme lategame, he scales hard as hell going by this which is actually very similar to Caitlyn. > Ekko fits that description... he is also boned against GP. Irelia has better DPS and sticks much better, Ekko´sW is easily avoided and his Q slow can be cleansed by GP which leaves him with no ability to really keep hitting GP while Irelia has 3 dashes, a slow and a stun which in a good combo are highly difficult to avoid. > GP is bad against certain matchups for different reasons. > Most of the time he is bad against high damage engages with high tankiness in the early game. Which happen to be mostly bruisers/skrimishers. > He is also bad against heavy poke damage (Quinn / Pantheon) We can argue this as much as we want to but fact is that according to OP.GG with a sample size of 4412 games we have Irelia sitting at a 52,7% winrate in the matchup. > Irelia is neither tanky nor does she bring high damage to the table early on in the game. > Also stacking her passive early game isn&#x27;t really the easiest thing to do, especially if you are getting barraged by GP Q&#x27;s and barrels. It is fairly easy, her W stacks 2 of it instantly, Q adds one and E one......so if you dash on 2 minions then GP with W you´ll have it up. > Irelia falls? > Are you serious? > > Have you played an actual falling champion? > Pantheon? > Lee Sin? > Warwick? > Aatrox? Pantheon and lee with dark harvest basically does not fall, and it shows on their winrate charts with different runes. Warwick is a midgame champ but he is as far as i see more specialized in ganking and helping out in skirmishes rather than dueling. However his E is great even lategame, a powerful damage resistance that ends with a AOE fear.....always good. Aatrox as i see him, is garbage, staight up garbage. His winrate over time is never even remotely good, his Q is easily countered by many and his dueling is truly subpar. > Irelia is fucking strong in the late game compared to other falling champions. I play champs like Ashe, seju, vel koz, Zyra, sona, Jax,kayle, Anivia and even some cait and tristana........i dont define Irelia as strong late, she is alright but not strong. With that said though, her midgame is truly good, her ulti hardcounters the marksmen sitting at 2-4 items and the supports will not have all the tools for protection. > Also what marksmen get cleanse for Irelia? Those wishing to survive? Have you actually played a marksman against her? When she ults you as a marksman you have two options, first being to stand inside her ulti and hit her praying to the heavens she dies first or you try to run.,,,,,which often is unfeasible because of the slow and disarm on exit, stun too. So what does one do? Dodge the stun and run out from the wall with cleanse.....this is just about the one working solution i have aside from flash. > Doesn&#x27;t matter anyway, pre-rework she wasn&#x27;t able to 1 v 1 the marksmen 0/5 and now she is. Pre rework Irelia was binary stat check, either you survived her stunning you or you didnt. > Also getting cleanse for pre-rework Irelia literally just stopped her whole engage now she still has 4 dashes. 3 dashes with a significant delay if she actually wants to deal any damage. > Horribly useless? > Ever saw a Mordekaiser that is behind? > Which one do you think is more useful? > Mordekaiser 0/5 or Irelia 0/5? Mordekaiser is a fricking awful example, he is a pitifully fragmented champs with very few means to success and a very simple way of playing, he is in such a dire need of a rework it honestly makes no sense that kayle and morg got ahead of him.....hells he should have been ahead of Nunu even. And dont get me started on the 200+ bugs, so to put it simply if you want to make an comparision, compare her to a actually reasonably functioning and played champ. > Then 3 dashes, whatever, they still can&#x27;t land skillshots on a guy that has 3 dashes. You can, pretty easily too......because she is going to 1 place and 1 place only. > Land a knock up as Vel on Irelia, good fucking luck. Vel´s chances are bad true enough, his ability to hit anything with any kind of mobility with anything is pretty bad. > Old one? Alright she dashed onto you, literally just cast the spell where she is right now she doesn&#x27;t have anything else. Except you know.....a 2 seconds stun on a 3-4 seconds cooldown......as a mage your chances of beating the old one was no better than the current one just because of this. Banshee? She sends 1 ult blade to it. > It&#x27;s not about Irelia winning that 1 v 1 100% of the time, it&#x27;s the fact that she has a higher chance to win it which makes her come back faster and let&#x27;s her stay a threat even if behind. And this isnt good how? Usually when a champ is completely useless when behind we call them feast or famine which i though people felt was a toxic design. > No but I play against that champ and I see the champion being played. > Pretty sure you aren&#x27;t a Urgot / Gp / Darius / Akali main either when telling they lose against Irelia. No but i do watch statistics and read guides before i make statementes to ensure i have something to prove my words with. Real reason Irelia beats Darius? Its ridiculously easy for her to secure jungle ganks on him. > Having said that, she doesn&#x27;t stand a chance against bruisers when she is behind. > Xin/Olaf/Warwick will rip her apart when she is behind. They do so if they are even or even if she is slightly ahead of her too. > Talon will burst her down before she does anything. Most assassins do. > Yes it does something, don&#x27;t act like having 1 more free dash doesn&#x27;t do anything. > You can kite melees better or avoid them better. Can only dash on enemy targets, makes pathing predictable to a degree......especially since she kills the target if she wants to reset unlike say Yas who dashes around with enemies having nearly no clue where he is going. > Her Q let&#x27;s her farm from a range while the old one would just sit back, again, Irelia not getting punished when she would be in regards of pre-rework. .....You do know that her current Q and old one are basically the same right? Both resets on minion kills and both cost very little mana when doing so, difference was that you had to max the old one to get a short CD out of it. > The rework removed more counterplay than it added (wow they made her stun a &quot;skillshot&quot;) and instead of lowering the reward we just let that one be the same. If this was the case she wouldnt be losing like 70% of her matchups. > She shouldn&#x27;t be beating Aatrox and like I told you, when she loses she often loses against bruisers. The champions that will fuck her up when she gets behind. DO YOU EVEN REALIZE WHAT YOU ARE WRITING?! "She shouldnt be beating AATROX" ?!?!?!_?!?!?!?!? DUDE. Aatrox is literally a piece of useless shit when matched against anything he cant hit with his Q, he is so extremely useless when the Q cant be hit that he might as well not exist, at all, his entire design is pure shit, no matter how well he plays he cant do anything at all if his target has the ability to dodge his Q´s. His rework was beyond a massive failure, his entire existence and ability to function hinges on the simple question of "can the Q be hit or not?" > Put a mage in that role and Irelia is REALLY hard to set back since you can&#x27;t land a key-spell on her. Now you are just mixing shit up with no no rhyme or reason in it. If Irelia is 0,5,0 she will literally just instantly die from 3 hits from any mage when she dashes on them, W or not, LB and Syndra says hi. If Irelia is even with the mage going 0,0,0? OF COURSE SHE FRICKING WINS. She is designed to beat ranged champs! Its the entire idea behind her entire kit! Complaining about it is just as ridiculously pointless as complaining about Darius shitting on most melee in the early game,.........he is designed to do it in case you didnt know! > As much as I don&#x27;t want to bring this argument up but playing a champion in nexus blitz and then getting an opinion for that champion in SR 5v5 ranked doesn&#x27;t really work. How so? Its literally just a sped up version of 5v5 with some different items and extremely frequent fights over events, it was such a good mode to practice teamfighting actually..... > Nexus Blitz is basically a clown fiesta, people make way more mistakes there. People dont make more mistakes, their mistakes are just more visible because you constantly have vision of 2-5 people at all times which makes seeing their performances much easier. You cant really see how many mistakes your jungler are making with his clears when you are farming and trading botlane can you? They make the same mistakes as they would otherwise, especially in teamfights.
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WrQJyMtO,comment-id=0002000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-13T17:40:24.381+0000) Then trust OP.GG if you want Champion.GG says its pretty much 50/50 GP vs Irelia and GP wins the very early game, trust me or not. > Pantheon and lee with dark harvest basically does not fall, and it shows on their winrate charts with different runes. > > Warwick is a midgame champ but he is as far as i see more specialized in ganking and helping out in skirmishes rather than dueling. > > However his E is great even lategame, a powerful damage resistance that ends with a AOE fear.....always good. > > Aatrox as i see him, is garbage, staight up garbage. > > His winrate over time is never even remotely good, his Q is easily countered by many and his dueling is truly subpar. Retarted runes making champions retarted. Compare them to Season 7 state. They fall off. Also Aatrox is pretty good when it comes to winning lanes. Problem is that it is pretty useless to set the enemy behind when every second champion just pops right the fuck off with 1 item and reaching their "Mid game" powerspike. Why play Aatrox when you can play Camille, get behind but after finishing Tri just 1 v 1 Aatrox anyway? > Those wishing to survive? Have you actually played a marksman against her? > > When she ults you as a marksman you have two options, first being to stand inside her ulti and hit her praying to the heavens she dies first or you try to run.,,,,,which often is unfeasible because of the slow and disarm on exit, stun too. > > So what does one do? Dodge the stun and run out from the wall with cleanse.....this is just about the one working solution i have aside from flash. I have never seen a single ADC get cleanse JUST for Irelia. > Pre rework Irelia was binary stat check, either you survived her stunning you or you didnt. My dude, new Irelia has exactly ONE more skillshot and it's an AOE that passes through terrain and minions. EVERYTHING else is exactly the same. ONE more skillshot and 2 MORE dashes. New Irelia is the exact same crap, you either get hit by the stun and die or dodge the stun. Oh yeah the stun is also ranged now whereas back then it was at least only melee.... oh and also back then if you cleansed the stun she didn't have any other way to gap close, now she also has R if she misses her stun or when you cleanse it. Really interactive kit if you ask me Old one had more counterplay than new one. > Mordekaiser is a fricking awful example, he is a pitifully fragmented champs with very few means to success and a very simple way of playing, he is in such a dire need of a rework it honestly makes no sense that kayle and morg got ahead of him.....hells he should have been ahead of Nunu even. > > And dont get me started on the 200+ bugs, so to put it simply if you want to make an comparision, compare her to a actually reasonably functioning and played champ. I gave you an example of what horribly useless means. If you what another example, literally 90% of the entire ADC roster is horribly useless when behind. > Except you know.....a 2 seconds stun on a 3-4 seconds cooldown......as a mage your chances of beating the old one was no better than the current one just because of this. > > Banshee? She sends 1 ult blade to it. Cleanse :) > And this isnt good how? Usually when a champ is completely useless when behind we call them feast or famine which i though people felt was a toxic design. There is a difference between feast and famine and mistake-proof Old one wasnt feast and famine, you set her behind and she stood behind until like 3+ items where she scaled back. Mordekaiser is feast and famine, where once behind he never gets back. > Can only dash on enemy targets, makes pathing predictable to a degree......especially since she kills the target if she wants to reset unlike say Yas who dashes around with enemies having nearly no clue where he is going. Ok then let's just remove it until she is level 10! Since you are still acting like it doesn't do anything in the early game we might as well just remove it no? Since it's useless anyway right? > .....You do know that her current Q and old one are basically the same right? Both resets on minion kills and both cost very little mana when doing so, difference was that you had to max the old one to get a short CD out of it. I meant her stun, W I think it is. > If this was the case she wouldnt be losing like 70% of her matchups. Champion.GG says it's around 50% > Now you are just mixing shit up with no no rhyme or reason in it. > > If Irelia is 0,5,0 she will literally just instantly die from 3 hits from any mage when she dashes on them, W or not, LB and Syndra says hi. > > If Irelia is even with the mage going 0,0,0? OF COURSE SHE FRICKING WINS. > > She is designed to beat ranged champs! Its the entire idea behind her entire kit! Complaining about it is just as ridiculously pointless as complaining about Darius shitting on most melee in the early game,.........he is designed to do it in case you didnt know! LB is an assassin not a mage and Syndra is a pretty specific case of a burst mage with a reliable way of hitting someone / getting rid of someone right infront of her. Also the 0 counterplay ult of hers which is at the same time also the most damaging spell. Most mages have 1 key-spell and if they hit that they can ensure their entire combo, if not everything gets wonky for them. Irelia can dodge that 1 spell thanks to her numerous dashes. If she is designed to kill ranged champs then why is she WINNING AGAINST DARIUS! The guy desgined to murder melees in laning phase? Like are you that blind to see it? She lacks any form of significant weakness whereas the old one had pretty clear weaknesses. We removed weaknesses with the rework and kept the reward the same. A champion with no weakness is shit to play against. > How so? Its literally just a sped up version of 5v5 with some different items and extremely frequent fights over events, it was such a good mode to practice teamfighting actually..... Because SR isn't about just teamfighting until the game is over and it's sad to see people calling blitz a sped up version of SR. Pretty much means SR (or league in general) has lost all strategy. > You cant really see how many mistakes your jungler are making with his clears when you are farming and trading botlane can you? No, I can pretty clearly see my jungler having less cs while having ganked less than the opponents jungler. I can clearly see that we have 0 dragons or any vision on the objectives. I can clearly see when bot is shitting the bed, same goes for mid or top. Can pretty clearly see when someone builds Stormrazor on Cho'Gath A lot of people realize when someone isn't doing their job right. Also I don't think people are as competitive in Blitz as they are in a ranked SR. Blitz was more of a fun mode, some sort of URF if you will. Yes you get your try-harder here and there but most people just play the gamemode casually.
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WrQJyMtO,comment-id=0002000100010000,timestamp=2018-09-13T11:07:09.879+0000) > > Hmm didn&#x27;t kow that, they should remove that. > Anyway, Irelia is still fucked against Urgot. Urgot can freely do what he wants in that lane, going close to him when you are marked and he activates his W is certainly going to lose you the trade. Mark as in his Q? I dont think he should be able to land that on a good Irelia, especially not if she rushes phage. > Darius hook + instant Q secures the hit 100% of the time as far as I have seen. I mean.....she should never go near him without having the E activating on him? As long as she doesnt rush to Q the mark only to let his E stop the Q its fine, the mark duration is kinda long. > Also if Irelia wants to do anything against Darius she has to go melee... in which case Darius starts stacking and her defensive thing just lets her sit in one spot while Darius continues to stack and it doesn&#x27;t prevent his true damage ult. In lane pre 6 the ulti isnt a problem, however his passive truly is powerful and its the reason why irelia has to be very careful. > Irelia has to play like a bitch the entire laning phase and will prop be behind in cs by a lot. Or sit under tower and farm with her Q until she has enough items to fight, she is stronger at 1 item. > I&#x27;m not going to explain to you how this lane is heavily GP sided unless you want to. > Will be a pretty big wall of text tho. > > Not really, Tanks are his best matchups and most of them have the most reliable ways to get to opponents. > As long as the damage isn&#x27;t off the roof GP can stand his ground pretty well. Allow me to rephrase, GP is boned by anything that can reliably gapclose AND stick on him, and Irelia with stacked passive and Sheen has both the burst, dps and the gapclosing to make him miserable. Dash into barrel? Use W the moment you see him turn towards the barrel, force him to W by starting the fight with the R and instant E after. > And Irelia doesn&#x27;t do enough damage early on for GP to worry about. With stacked passive she actually deals a lot of damage, i got surprised myself playing her. > Some goes for Yasuo, can&#x27;t get a more reliably engage than that, Yas cant rush sheen and use it well, and he doesnt have any way to reliably deal with the barrels. > What I&#x27;m saying is, she doesn&#x27;t get equally punished as other champs when put behind, especially not for a scaling champion. She doesnt scale that well, her peak is midgame and lategame she falls like heck. Ulti for teamfights? Marksman says cleanse and support says CC and she is useless for that matter. > Irelia is coming back into the game way too quickly. > Same thing with Jax I realized recently... ever saw a 0/5 Jax just jumping on and doing serious damage just because Triforce is finished? I have seen a 0,3,0 Jax do it, but he had stacked his passive fully before his opponent got on him and conqueror was ready to go which gave him a fat advantage. Never seen Irelia do the same, she is to my experience horribly useless when behind. > Also Trifroce is her biggest powerspike what are you talking about. > That item is nuts when finished. Not when behind, its ridiculously powerful when ahead but not when behind. > I think you have the wrong idea on how that fight would go down. > Irelia can put out a total of 2 instant dashes, 3 if she uses ult and 4 if she let&#x27;s 1 reset go down. > What god damn mage can put up with 4 potential instant dashes? > Old Irelia had exactly 1 > Mages can deal with 1 dash but not 3 or 4. > So just because of that Irelia has a higher chance defeating an opponent which she couldn&#x27;t have done pre-rework. Mages dont need to deal with that many dashes, a perfect combo from irelia results in 3 dashes, and it takes roughtly 5 seconds if using triforce on each of them. But what actually happens if irelia is behind? She dies literally instantly the moment she goes near the mage, she isnt a tank or yasou who can just windwall all the damage! And even if she uses W to block a part of the combo she will often still die, because she is squishy at that point! I played her extensively in nexus blitz just to get a feel for her, i wasnt too impressed by anything in particular except her ability to contribute to a wombo combo with her ulti but it takes the enemy stacking on eachother and someone else bringing in powerful damage as a followup, like Zyra or ziggs ults. > Unfortunate that you can&#x27;t kite an Irelia, again 3 or 4 dashes and a disarm mechanic plus a slow. Marksman should never be alone thus Irelia isnt a problem, with a support peeling them Irelia literally has no kill pressure because she cant reset her Q on anything. > Her potential to kill enemies and speed which she comes back into the game has increased by a lot with the rework while her reward when getting ahead stayed the same. She is still shit when behind, i cant understand where you get this idea that she can comeback faster or better somehow, especially not from so far behind. > The only thing she can&#x27;t fight when behind are Bruisers / Assassins. Have you actually played this champ, at all? > Also the defensive ability + more mobility she got with the rework help her to survive laning phases better where she otherwise would have lost. > Or puffer her setback since punishing her got harder. That extra mobility doesnt do squat in lane against melee, all she does with it is monkey around infront of them. Against ranged? A competent ranged can survive yasou, Irelia has nothing on them. > All of these things lead to her being hard to REALLY set back and even if you did, the set back doesn&#x27;t last that long. All it takes is literally killing her once or twice and she can never hope to 1v1 you unless you are playing Aatrox or some shield reliant one like ornn...or heimer or a marksman that is alone. But honestly marksmen in general should never win 1v1 ever so that much is fine.
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WrQJyMtO,comment-id=00020001000100000000,timestamp=2018-09-13T13:45:13.548+0000) > > Mark as in his Q? I dont think he should be able to land that on a good Irelia, especially not if she rushes phage. > > I mean.....she should never go near him without having the E activating on him? As long as she doesnt rush to Q the mark only to let his E stop the Q its fine, the mark duration is kinda long. > > In lane pre 6 the ulti isnt a problem, however his passive truly is powerful and its the reason why irelia has to be very careful. > > Or sit under tower and farm with her Q until she has enough items to fight, she is stronger at 1 item. > > Allow me to rephrase, GP is boned by anything that can reliably gapclose AND stick on him, and Irelia with stacked passive and Sheen has both the burst, dps and the gapclosing to make him miserable. > > Dash into barrel? Use W the moment you see him turn towards the barrel, force him to W by starting the fight with the R and instant E after. > > With stacked passive she actually deals a lot of damage, i got surprised myself playing her. > > Yas cant rush sheen and use it well, and he doesnt have any way to reliably deal with the barrels. > > She doesnt scale that well, her peak is midgame and lategame she falls like heck. > > Ulti for teamfights? Marksman says cleanse and support says CC and she is useless for that matter. > > I have seen a 0,3,0 Jax do it, but he had stacked his passive fully before his opponent got on him and conqueror was ready to go which gave him a fat advantage. > > Never seen Irelia do the same, she is to my experience horribly useless when behind. > > Not when behind, its ridiculously powerful when ahead but not when behind. > > Mages dont need to deal with that many dashes, a perfect combo from irelia results in 3 dashes, and it takes roughtly 5 seconds if using triforce on each of them. > > But what actually happens if irelia is behind? She dies literally instantly the moment she goes near the mage, she isnt a tank or yasou who can just windwall all the damage! And even if she uses W to block a part of the combo she will often still die, because she is squishy at that point! > > I played her extensively in nexus blitz just to get a feel for her, i wasnt too impressed by anything in particular except her ability to contribute to a wombo combo with her ulti but it takes the enemy stacking on eachother and someone else bringing in powerful damage as a followup, like Zyra or ziggs ults. > > Marksman should never be alone thus Irelia isnt a problem, with a support peeling them Irelia literally has no kill pressure because she cant reset her Q on anything. > > She is still shit when behind, i cant understand where you get this idea that she can comeback faster or better somehow, especially not from so far behind. > > Have you actually played this champ, at all? > > That extra mobility doesnt do squat in lane against melee, all she does with it is monkey around infront of them. > > Against ranged? A competent ranged can survive yasou, Irelia has nothing on them. > > All it takes is literally killing her once or twice and she can never hope to 1v1 you unless you are playing Aatrox or some shield reliant one like ornn...or heimer or a marksman that is alone. > > But honestly marksmen in general should never win 1v1 ever so that much is fine. > Mark as in his Q? I dont think he should be able to land that on a good Irelia, especially not if she rushes phage. No, just mark. Since he can buffer the cc he gets an easier time to mark her. Even if not marked, when engaging on Urgot you are most propably fighting in HIS minion wave which leaves no other target but you in range for his W, essentially marking you. > Or sit under tower and farm with her Q until she has enough items to fight, she is stronger at 1 item. If that is the case Irelia is beyond fucking busted. Darius is an early game lane bully, Irelia is a scaling champion If Irelia manages to be outright better than Darius at 1 item then that means Irelia is a bigger bully than him AND has scalings. It's like GP beating a Renekton with 1 item. Shouldn't be happening and if it is happening we need to nerf Irelia the same way we nerfed GP > Allow me to rephrase, GP is boned by anything that can reliably gapclose AND stick on him, and Irelia with stacked passive and Sheen has both the burst, dps and the gapclosing to make him miserable. > > Dash into barrel? Use W the moment you see him turn towards the barrel, force him to W by starting the fight with the R and instant E after. Ekko fits that description... he is also boned against GP. GP is bad against certain matchups for different reasons. Most of the time he is bad against high damage engages with high tankiness in the early game. Which happen to be mostly bruisers/skrimishers. He is also bad against heavy poke damage (Quinn / Pantheon) Irelia is neither tanky nor does she bring high damage to the table early on in the game. Also stacking her passive early game isn't really the easiest thing to do, especially if you are getting barraged by GP Q's and barrels. > She doesnt scale that well, her peak is midgame and lategame she falls like heck. > > Ulti for teamfights? Marksman says cleanse and support says CC and she is useless for that matter. Irelia falls? Are you serious? Have you played an actual falling champion? Pantheon? Lee Sin? Warwick? Aatrox? Irelia is fucking strong in the late game compared to other falling champions. Also what marksmen get cleanse for Irelia? Doesn't matter anyway, pre-rework she wasn't able to 1 v 1 the marksmen 0/5 and now she is. Also getting cleanse for pre-rework Irelia literally just stopped her whole engage now she still has 4 dashes. > I have seen a 0,3,0 Jax do it, but he had stacked his passive fully before his opponent got on him and conqueror was ready to go which gave him a fat advantage. > > Never seen Irelia do the same, she is to my experience horribly useless when behind. Horribly useless? Ever saw a Mordekaiser that is behind? Which one do you think is more useful? Mordekaiser 0/5 or Irelia 0/5? THAT is horribly useless when behind. Irelia has a very high potential to just get back into the game relatively quickly. > Mages dont need to deal with that many dashes, a perfect combo from irelia results in 3 dashes, and it takes roughtly 5 seconds if using triforce on each of them. > > But what actually happens if irelia is behind? She dies literally instantly the moment she goes near the mage, she isnt a tank or yasou who can just windwall all the damage! And even if she uses W to block a part of the combo she will often still die, because she is squishy at that point! > > I played her extensively in nexus blitz just to get a feel for her, i wasnt too impressed by anything in particular except her ability to contribute to a wombo combo with her ulti but it takes the enemy stacking on eachother and someone else bringing in powerful damage as a followup, like Zyra or ziggs ults. Then 3 dashes, whatever, they still can't land skillshots on a guy that has 3 dashes. Land a knock up as Vel on Irelia, good fucking luck. Old one? Alright she dashed onto you, literally just cast the spell where she is right now she doesn't have anything else. Since she has more potential to dodge key spells, she has more potential to kill the mage than pre-rework. It's not about Irelia winning that 1 v 1 100% of the time, it's the fact that she has a higher chance to win it which makes her come back faster and let's her stay a threat even if behind. > She is still shit when behind, i cant understand where you get this idea that she can comeback faster or better somehow, especially not from so far behind. I gave you 2 examples on what fights the current Irelia wins and what fights old Irelia would have lost. Since getting ahead is the same thing in both cases means she can fight and come back faster when behind than old Irelia. > Have you actually played this champ, at all? No but I play against that champ and I see the champion being played. Pretty sure you aren't a Urgot / Gp / Darius / Akali main either when telling they lose against Irelia. Having said that, she doesn't stand a chance against bruisers when she is behind. Xin/Olaf/Warwick will rip her apart when she is behind. Talon will burst her down before she does anything. > That extra mobility doesnt do squat in lane against melee, all she does with it is monkey around infront of them. > > Against ranged? A competent ranged can survive yasou, Irelia has nothing on them. Yes it does something, don't act like having 1 more free dash doesn't do anything. You can kite melees better or avoid them better. Her Q let's her farm from a range while the old one would just sit back, again, Irelia not getting punished when she would be in regards of pre-rework. The rework removed more counterplay than it added (wow they made her stun a "skillshot") and instead of lowering the reward we just let that one be the same. > All it takes is literally killing her once or twice and she can never hope to 1v1 you unless you are playing Aatrox or some shield reliant one like ornn...or heimer or a marksman that is alone. She shouldn't be beating Aatrox and like I told you, when she loses she often loses against bruisers. The champions that will fuck her up when she gets behind. Put a mage in that role and Irelia is REALLY hard to set back since you can't land a key-spell on her. > I played her extensively in nexus blitz just to get a feel for her As much as I don't want to bring this argument up but playing a champion in nexus blitz and then getting an opinion for that champion in SR 5v5 ranked doesn't really work. Nexus Blitz is basically a clown fiesta, people make way more mistakes there.
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WrQJyMtO,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-09-13T09:47:34.207+0000) > > She literally doesn&#x27;t beat any of those in laning phase. > > Urgot can buffer her only CC and can knock her out of the defensive thing > Darius rapes her and knocks her out of the defensive thing > GP pcks Grasp / Ignite / Corrputing and bullies her > Akali is just a skill matchup but I&#x27;m assuming thanks to the smoke that Akali has the upper hand since most of Irelias damage is point and click. > > The problem isn&#x27;t her laning phase, it&#x27;s her stupid scaling. > Oh she is 0/5? > Don&#x27;t worry she just finished Triforce and is level 11 anything squishy that isn&#x27;t an Assassin is still fucked against her. > > 0/5 Urgot is a joke > 0/5 Darius is a joke > 0/5 pre lvl 13 GP is a joke > > But naaaaaahh > 0/5 Irelia is still a threat > > She needs to be punished more heavily when getting behind. That&#x27;s her main problem. > > GP used to have the same problem back in Season 7, got fixed pretty fast. irelia w is uninterruptible, darius nor urgot can stop her from doing it
> [{quoted}](name=Katherine,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WrQJyMtO,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2018-09-13T10:26:04.812+0000) > > irelia w is uninterruptible, darius nor urgot can stop her from doing it Yeah she get's moved when affected by displacements/knock-ups but it seems like the effect doesn't stop which is total bullshit.
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WrQJyMtO,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-09-13T09:47:34.207+0000) > > She literally doesn&#x27;t beat any of those in laning phase. > Urgot can buffer her only CC and can knock her out of the defensive thing Even if you move her while she uses the W it doesnt cancel the damage reduction.....its weird but its there, so if she pops W and blitz grabs her the damage reduction should still apply. > Darius rapes her and knocks her out of the defensive thing He shouldnt be able to do so as far as i know, he is much to reliant on landing his Q and being able to stack his passive.....irelia has everything needed to deny both. > GP pcks Grasp / Ignite / Corrputing and bullies her Irelia picks the same corrupting potion+rune and gets a early dorans shield......endures the poke and spanks him the moment she gets either sheen or phage. GP sucks against anything that can reliably gapclose on him. > Akali is just a skill matchup but I&#x27;m assuming thanks to the smoke that Akali has the upper hand since most of Irelias damage is point and click. Yeah its much more even, but Akalis W has a much longer cooldown than Irelia´s E which is possible to abuse, and with some positioning Irelia can save a Q to dash away whenever akali uses it, i played this one a lot in the recent Nexus blitz and had a friend play the akali side vs a Irelia. If akali dodges irelia´s E and smokes the ulti she wins even at 3 items, if Irelia lands both and Q´s on them she will win even if akali drops in and out of smoke for the most part but some early MR did help. > The problem isn&#x27;t her laning phase, it&#x27;s her stupid scaling. > Oh she is 0/5? > Don&#x27;t worry she just finished Triforce and is level 11 anything squishy that isn&#x27;t an Assassin is still fucked against her. ........what? Like........if someone is playing something and is so far behind that a 0,5 irelia who is down on EXP and farm can kill them with only a triforce then the person did something seriously wrong. Triforce doesnt add that much damage to her that she can beat someone who should at such a point be an entire item over her, she isnt tanky nor does she possess quick burst with only triforce as Spellblade doesnt refresh quickly enough. > 0/5 Urgot is a joke > 0/5 Darius is a joke > 0/5 pre lvl 13 GP is a joke > But naaaaaahh > 0/5 Irelia is still a threat > She needs to be punished more heavily when getting behind. That&#x27;s her main problem. Show me an example of a 0,5,0 Irelia doing anything at all ._. If you told me that a 0,1 or a 0,2 one did something i might believe it, but a 0,5,0? No way- Like if we say that a 0,5,0 Irelia with triforce tries to run down on a mage what will actually happen? Mage will just drop a combo on her face and Irelia will literally explode because of her lower lvl and no resistances while Irelia is trying to milk out Spellblade (sheen)procs from trinity. Honestly i think it´s more plausible that a 0,3,0 irelia with trinity and titanic hydra beats a 3 item marksman 1v1, that is plausible and would happen easily. But a mage? A mage going 5,0,0 on her would just chunk half or more of her healthbar in 2 hits.
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WrQJyMtO,comment-id=000200010001,timestamp=2018-09-13T10:27:18.543+0000) > > Even if you move her while she uses the W it doesnt cancel the damage reduction.....its weird but its there, so if she pops W and blitz grabs her the damage reduction should still apply. > > He shouldnt be able to do so as far as i know, he is much to reliant on landing his Q and being able to stack his passive.....irelia has everything needed to deny both. > > Irelia picks the same corrupting potion+rune and gets a early dorans shield......endures the poke and spanks him the moment she gets either sheen or phage. > > GP sucks against anything that can reliably gapclose on him. > > Yeah its much more even, but Akalis W has a much longer cooldown than Irelia´s E which is possible to abuse, and with some positioning Irelia can save a Q to dash away whenever akali uses it, i played this one a lot in the recent Nexus blitz and had a friend play the akali side vs a Irelia. > > If akali dodges irelia´s E and smokes the ulti she wins even at 3 items, if Irelia lands both and Q´s on them she will win even if akali drops in and out of smoke for the most part but some early MR did help. > > ........what? > > Like........if someone is playing something and is so far behind that a 0,5 irelia who is down on EXP and farm can kill them with only a triforce then the person did something seriously wrong. > > Triforce doesnt add that much damage to her that she can beat someone who should at such a point be an entire item over her, she isnt tanky nor does she possess quick burst with only triforce as Spellblade doesnt refresh quickly enough. > > Show me an example of a 0,5,0 Irelia doing anything at all ._. > > If you told me that a 0,1 or a 0,2 one did something i might believe it, but a 0,5,0? No way- > > Like if we say that a 0,5,0 Irelia with triforce tries to run down on a mage what will actually happen? Mage will just drop a combo on her face and Irelia will literally explode because of her lower lvl and no resistances while Irelia is trying to milk out Spellblade (sheen)procs from trinity. > > Honestly i think it´s more plausible that a 0,3,0 irelia with trinity and titanic hydra beats a 3 item marksman 1v1, that is plausible and would happen easily. > > But a mage? A mage going 5,0,0 on her would just chunk half or more of her healthbar in 2 hits. > Even if you move her while she uses the W it doesnt cancel the damage reduction.....its weird but its there, so if she pops W and blitz grabs her the damage reduction should still apply. Hmm didn't kow that, they should remove that. Anyway, Irelia is still fucked against Urgot. Urgot can freely do what he wants in that lane, going close to him when you are marked and he activates his W is certainly going to lose you the trade. > He shouldnt be able to do so as far as i know, he is much to reliant on landing his Q and being able to stack his passive.....irelia has everything needed to deny both. Darius hook + instant Q secures the hit 100% of the time as far as I have seen. Also if Irelia wants to do anything against Darius she has to go melee... in which case Darius starts stacking and her defensive thing just lets her sit in one spot while Darius continues to stack and it doesn't prevent his true damage ult. Irelia has to play like a bitch the entire laning phase and will prop be behind in cs by a lot. > Irelia picks the same corrupting potion+rune and gets a early dorans shield......endures the poke and spanks him the moment she gets either sheen or phage. I'm not going to explain to you how this lane is heavily GP sided unless you want to. Will be a pretty big wall of text tho. > GP sucks against anything that can reliably gapclose on him. Not really, Tanks are his best matchups and most of them have the most reliable ways to get to opponents. As long as the damage isn't off the roof GP can stand his ground pretty well. And Irelia doesn't do enough damage early on for GP to worry about. Some goes for Yasuo, can't get a more reliably engage than that, But Yasuo still can't contest a GP under a barrel. > ........what? > > Like........if someone is playing something and is so far behind that a 0,5 irelia who is down on EXP and farm can kill them with only a triforce then the person did something seriously wrong. > > Triforce doesnt add that much damage to her that she can beat someone who should at such a point be an entire item over her, she isnt tanky nor does she possess quick burst with only triforce as Spellblade doesnt refresh quickly enough. Can't show you right now, I'm not at home. What I'm saying is, she doesn't get equally punished as other champs when put behind, especially not for a scaling champion. Again, GP had the same problems back in Season 7. They nerfed his base HP / base mana / ult damage / W mana cost so when he is behind he stays behind (until lvl 13). Irelia is coming back into the game way too quickly. Same thing with Jax I realized recently... ever saw a 0/5 Jax just jumping on and doing serious damage just because Triforce is finished? Also Trifroce is her biggest powerspike what are you talking about. That item is nuts when finished. > Show me an example of a 0,5,0 Irelia doing anything at all ._. > > If you told me that a 0,1 or a 0,2 one did something i might believe it, but a 0,5,0? No way- > > Like if we say that a 0,5,0 Irelia with triforce tries to run down on a mage what will actually happen? Mage will just drop a combo on her face and Irelia will literally explode because of her lower lvl and no resistances while Irelia is trying to milk out Spellblade (sheen)procs from trinity. > > Honestly i think it´s more plausible that a 0,3,0 irelia with trinity and titanic hydra beats a 3 item marksman 1v1, that is plausible and would happen easily. > > But a mage? A mage going 5,0,0 on her would just chunk half or more of her healthbar in 2 hits I think you have the wrong idea on how that fight would go down. Irelia can put out a total of 2 instant dashes, 3 if she uses ult and 4 if she let's 1 reset go down. What god damn mage can put up with 4 potential instant dashes? Old Irelia had exactly 1 Mages can deal with 1 dash but not 3 or 4. So just because of that Irelia has a higher chance defeating an opponent which she couldn't have done pre-rework. Thats one point in "she comes back too quickly / she is still a threat" ADC's need to kite her in order to win the fight, they can't just stand still and eat everything to the face. Unfortunate that you can't kite an Irelia, again 3 or 4 dashes and a disarm mechanic plus a slow. Old Irelia still has exactly 1 dash (and a stun but both Irelias have that so...) Another point which makes her a threat even though she shouldn't be. Her potential to kill enemies and speed which she comes back into the game has increased by a lot with the rework while her reward when getting ahead stayed the same. The only thing she can't fight when behind are Bruisers / Assassins. Bruisers just face-tank her and rip her apart Assassins dodge her stuff and rip her apart Also the defensive ability + more mobility she got with the rework help her to survive laning phases better where she otherwise would have lost. Or puffer her setback since punishing her got harder. All of these things lead to her being hard to REALLY set back and even if you did, the set back doesn't last that long.
: Only reason irelia has a good winrate right now is probably because she beats urgot, Darius, GP and Akali.......she loses to pretty much everything else that is even remotely popular. Infinite resets? If she spams Q it does no damage, trinity doesnt reset in time. 50% damage reduction for....2 seconds? Wont do shit against focused fire, go play her and you´ll notice. It doesnt give the durability of a seju with stoneplate and aftershock which is pretty much what you need to survive enemy backline when you dive in which is pretty much what every melee needs to win these days if they dont snowball. 1v1? She gets stomped by Jax, camilie and Fiora.........hells even poppy and Garen wreck her easily. Passive? Lategame its some bonus magic damage on hit that eats through shields and barely anything else,.....how op. /s OP i honestly recommend you go and play Irelia for a while, you´ll quickly realize her weakpoints and how to abuse them hard. Irelia has her best matchup being Ornn with a 58% winrate into it, other being vayne and Heimer are her best ones. She beats the shield reliant tank and pretty much all the ranged picks of toplane? Woah its almost like she was made to do it.......while losing to nearly every single melee. GP also has his best matchup as Ornn, and he has a 55% winrate there, and 54% into 2 other matchups......but he also wins against several melee. Jax has 3+ matchups where he has 56% winrate going all the way up to 60% winrate, and i know he wins a ton of others ontop even without looking. Fiora rapes anything that isnt Yi or Tryndamere so damn easily lategame, barely any effort on her part, she can just split and post some point she can 1v2 without much effort as long as the enemy top+jungle doesnt hardcounter her.....like poppy+some high damage pick or such. OP you wana call irelia OP? Please look over some other champs first, her performance is absolutely nothing noteworthy at all, even jax is better at teamfights because no auto attacks can kill him when he has E up no matter what, and he can even move and hit things with it. Free resistance bonuses for using ulti, and his Q cooldown goes down so low that it hits like 4 seconds or less which means spammable mobility.
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WrQJyMtO,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-09-13T08:50:13.204+0000) > > Only reason irelia has a good winrate right now is probably because she beats urgot, Darius, GP and Akali.......she loses to pretty much everything else that is even remotely popular. > > Infinite resets? If she spams Q it does no damage, trinity doesnt reset in time. > > 50% damage reduction for....2 seconds? Wont do shit against focused fire, go play her and you´ll notice. > > It doesnt give the durability of a seju with stoneplate and aftershock which is pretty much what you need to survive enemy backline when you dive in which is pretty much what every melee needs to win these days if they dont snowball. > > 1v1? She gets stomped by Jax, camilie and Fiora.........hells even poppy and Garen wreck her easily. > > > Passive? Lategame its some bonus magic damage on hit that eats through shields and barely anything else,.....how op. /s > > > OP i honestly recommend you go and play Irelia for a while, you´ll quickly realize her weakpoints and how to abuse them hard. > > Irelia has her best matchup being Ornn with a 58% winrate into it, other being vayne and Heimer are her best ones. > > She beats the shield reliant tank and pretty much all the ranged picks of toplane? Woah its almost like she was made to do it.......while losing to nearly every single melee. > > > GP also has his best matchup as Ornn, and he has a 55% winrate there, and 54% into 2 other matchups......but he also wins against several melee. > > Jax has 3+ matchups where he has 56% winrate going all the way up to 60% winrate, and i know he wins a ton of others ontop even without looking. > > Fiora rapes anything that isnt Yi or Tryndamere so damn easily lategame, barely any effort on her part, she can just split and post some point she can 1v2 without much effort as long as the enemy top+jungle doesnt hardcounter her.....like poppy+some high damage pick or such. > > > OP you wana call irelia OP? Please look over some other champs first, her performance is absolutely nothing noteworthy at all, even jax is better at teamfights because no auto attacks can kill him when he has E up no matter what, and he can even move and hit things with it. > > Free resistance bonuses for using ulti, and his Q cooldown goes down so low that it hits like 4 seconds or less which means spammable mobility. > urgot, Darius, GP and Akali She literally doesn't beat any of those in laning phase. Urgot can buffer her only CC and can knock her out of the defensive thing Darius rapes her and knocks her out of the defensive thing GP pcks Grasp / Ignite / Corrputing and bullies her Akali is just a skill matchup but I'm assuming thanks to the smoke that Akali has the upper hand since most of Irelias damage is point and click. The problem isn't her laning phase, it's her stupid scaling. Oh she is 0/5? Don't worry she just finished Triforce and is level 11 anything squishy that isn't an Assassin is still fucked against her. 0/5 Urgot is a joke 0/5 Darius is a joke 0/5 pre lvl 13 GP is a joke But naaaaaahh 0/5 Irelia is still a threat She needs to be punished more heavily when getting behind. That's her main problem. GP used to have the same problem back in Season 7, got fixed pretty fast.
: Hi mate, I'll give a review of your concept in order to enter september's CCOS, so don't feel obligated to respond if you don't feel like doing it so. I'll try to be brief and direct. Before entering the kit, I will say that your goals for the rework are just right. It's important to keep the playstyle very similar, close to identical if possible, when changing a champion. People invest a lot of time and dedication to master a champion. It's a kick in the balls to change a champion beyond recognition or remove key and fun aspects of it (like AP ratios shenanigans). Kit wise, the concept of Stances is pretty much what Riot will do if I had to guess, so that's very good. I just don't agree with the your execution: Having a useless skill at level 1 is problematic. Maybe the E (Adaptive Fighter) could have more ranks and give scaling bonuses, like AD in order to make him stronger at level 1? Although I sympathise in the difficult of solving this issue; it's kinda of a dilemma. I don't agree that Q and W should have 7 ranks. That's exclude one possible ability from his kit. Kits that resumes or put emphasis into few abilities (Ez, Zoe, Janna) usually aren't great in terms of balancing or fun. Take some power from the other abilities and put on the E. Give it more importance as I mentioned before. If you're having issue with scaling and making him spike too strong at early levels, try to move the scalings into level based instead of rank based. Something feels odd about the splash art, he's to curvy idk. I hope I have helped your concept. I personally like it, nice job.
> Hi mate, I'll give a review of your concept in order to enter september's CCOS, so don't feel obligated to respond if you don't feel like doing it so. I'll try to be brief and direct. I'm always open for feedback and if it is well constructed I can't just ignore it By the way. What is an CCOS? Champion Concepts Organizations Security? > Kit wise, the concept of Stances is pretty much what Riot will do if I had to guess, so that's very good. I just don't agree with the your execution: Having a useless skill at level 1 is problematic. Maybe the E (Adaptive Fighter) could have more ranks and give scaling bonuses, like AD in order to make him stronger at level 1? Although I sympathise in the difficult of solving this issue; it's kinda of a dilemma. There are a lot of people that think leveling the E first is a must. Pantheon would start the game in the offensive stance, aka leveling Q up level 1 would give you the 3-cast ability. So it's like any other champion: 1 level = +1 ability (assuming you "learn" the ability) The only difference being that Pantheon gains 2 abilities with the 3rd ability learned instead of 1. Which further increases his early dominance. I would rather not give him bonus AD anywhere in his kit. Almost anything he does, deals damage. Giving him bonus AD would break him in the early game and give him the problems Darius has in lower elos IMO. > I don't agree that Q and W should have 7 ranks. That's exclude one possible ability from his kit. Kits that resumes or put emphasis into few abilities (Ez, Zoe, Janna) usually aren't great in terms of balancing or fun. Take some power from the other abilities and put on the E. Give it more importance as I mentioned before. If you're having issue with scaling and making him spike too strong at early levels, try to move the scalings into level based instead of rank based. The difference between Ez, Zoe, Janna is that Pantheon has 4 abilities he works with and his kit can be adjusted to what he needs. He doesn't have a mechanic which he NEEDS to brute force (Like Zoe or Ezreal) I made sure that if he choses to max his bread and butter ability (offensive Q) first it leaves him with an ability which is rather underwhelming (defensive Q). This path makes him a way more aggressive fighter than leveling W first. Leveling W first would leave him in a state where he can provide way more cc and utility for his team. He can also chose to not max something and level both abilities at the same time to give him a balanced curve or you can make it so if you are ahead you just max Q and if behind you start leveling W. His kit doesn't have a mechanic that reads "If I don't do this im literally trolling" like leveling up Zoe E or W instead of Q. You can't do that whereas here you are free to level up what you actually need. At the end of the day we would propably need actual playtesting to see if it is a problem or not. IMO it shouldn't produce the same problem Zoe, Ez, Janna has but I can't say for certain. Your Idea of making his E scale off levels is interesting but then there would still be no reason to level it up since the ability would scale with champion-levels and not ability-levels. Making his E a "good" ability (keep in mind the E gives him 2 other seperate abilities to work with. His E is basically 2 abilities in 1 other ability) would overload him I think. > Something feels odd about the splash art, he's to curvy idk. I hope I have helped your concept. I personally like it, nice job. Well I can't draw for jack so I just picked something off the internet that looks like Panth but isn't the same splashart as of now. People tend to click on a concept with a picture on it more than without one, don't ask me why I don't know either. I thank you for your feedback and hope I was able to clear some stuff up!
: So that's why people are complaining about Sion :'D
Are you playing Mordekaiser or something? How do you not have any tools to dodge his E or his Q or interrupt his Q charge?
: Someone asked me about Ivern, I responded with...
Isn't that the the guy that tosses these little sapplings and unleashes a storm of roots with his ultimate? Yeah I see him here and there
: The forgotten champs: {{champion:427}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:266}} {{champion:42}} {{champion:121}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:223}} and more
> [{quoted}](name=PowerSlave993,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=GAMLpIuA,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-09-10T08:40:07.188+0000) > > The forgotten champs: > > {{champion:427}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:266}} {{champion:42}} {{champion:121}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:223}} > > and more {{champion:266}} {{champion:121}} {{champion:223}} ?????????????????????????????????
GripaAviara (EUNE)
: It's micro stun and removing it would be a big mistake. For example without the microstun, you are katarina's feeding food
God forbid she has counters right? While we are at it I can't bully a Renekton as GP level 3 can we give GP +20 base AD and +300 base HP please? Literally unplayable.
Terozu (NA)
: Flat out? Yes. The problem with targeted abilities is just that, they are targetted, unavoidable, no counterplay but "don't be in range". The vast majority of mages and fighters have some aoe way of dealing with her shroud, while ADCs, her targets, do not. In order to ever attack she gives you time to hit her back. The vast majority of adcs even reach 1.6 attack speed which means they can auto twice during one reveal if theyve recently cancelled an auto properly. The thing is, targeted abilities are point and click and lack counterplay. Giving a way to avoid it is perfectly healthy. Furthermore, you cant target anyone revealed by Sweeper wards, nor can you control ward many types of stealth. INCLUDING PREREWORK AKALI.
> Flat out? Yes. The problem with targeted abilities is just that, they are targetted, unavoidable, no counterplay but "don't be in range". And the problem with champions that dash around with 1000 projectile speed every second and can go invisible in a timeframe of 0.5 seconds for 9 seconds is that their only counterplay is braindead point and click cc/damage attacks If you remove that then what happens? Oh yeah, low counterplay. > The vast majority of mages and fighters have some aoe way of dealing with her shroud, while ADCs, her targets, do not. What fighter? Only guy that comes to mind is GP every other fighter can't just yolo some AOE into a shroud and hope for good results, not even metioning that there are very few fighters with good AOE. Also keep in mind her shroud can get bigger than a Nasus spirit fire. The biggest AOE you can get on a fighter. And did I miss a memo where mages aren't her target? Last time I checked Vel'Koz is boned against her, good luck hitting a knockup LUL she could dash twice before the knockup even lands. AT LEAST against Zed you can pre-fire your skillshot because you know where he is going to land. > In order to ever attack she gives you time to hit her back. 0.5 seconds is a joke of a window stop acting like you can do anything but auto attack her in that frame. Or cast a Rammus taunt... her counterplay > The vast majority of adcs even reach 1.6 attack speed which means they can auto twice during one reveal if theyve recently cancelled an auto properly. Yes if their reaction time was 0.0 seconds which unfortunately it isn't since humans are playing this game. > The thing is, targeted abilities are point and click and lack counterplay. Giving a way to avoid it is perfectly healthy. It's the only reliable counter against her, anything else needs her to fuck up to land. Which is not healthy.... at all. > Furthermore, you cant target anyone revealed by Sweeper wards, nor can you control ward many types of stealth. INCLUDING PREREWORK AKALI. Camouflage is targetable with that reveal Furthermore it wasn't used to directly target her, it was used to know where she is since it would reveal tracks of her (sweeper at least did). But of course that would go against CT's design of making 50 mistakes per engage and still getting rewarded for it. You removed every bit of counterplay of her shroud while it was one of the least counterplayable abilities in this game. She can literally just sit under your own tower because the tower is too slow to attack her. How you think her current shroud is anything but a toxic shitfest of an ability is beyond me. Edit: Just remove this stupid true stealth and make it a normal stealth like any other normal champion.
: Preseason Development Update 1
Any chance that we get Flat HP / Lethality / Magic pen as options for the stats? You could make the offensive stats AD/AP just adaptive and squeeze in the adaptive penetrations without increasing the choosable options. For the Flat HP... I guess there isn't a way to squeeze it in Also I'm not that sold on the idea to shorten the time until minions spawn, it's good right now, why fiddle with it?
Anìmê (NA)
: (Item Concept) Miracle Dagger
Soooo... a Wit's End with different stats and the MR shred is on an active? Edit: Also who the hell will use this? This looks way too overpowered on Fizz Diana will use it too I guess Kassadin?
: reeeeeeeeeeee
Wrong section This belongs in Gameplay+
: Burst mages also counter ADCs, btw.
Problem is that these mages have a rather hard time penetrating the frontline to get to the ADC in the first place. If they get on them then yeah, the ADC is most likely dead.
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nelogis

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