: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=BldQMxdN,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-11-26T12:08:31.054+0000) > > I'm not biased it is backed up by Riot Data > > https://twitter.com/blaustoise/status/1075515580570980352 > > Look at Singeds winrate peak, those are like THE one trick champs and Singed is ontop of all of them. > > Yes it's older data but I don't have anything else to prove the claim further so i hope this is enough. Are you saying that Aphelios's win rate difference between people playing him for the first few times and a few 100 times would be lower than Singed? What do you mean when you say Singed is more complex than Aphelios?
> [{quoted}](name=Trump4Prison2020,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=BldQMxdN,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-11-26T21:13:36.155+0000) > > Are you saying that Aphelios's win rate difference between people playing him for the first few times and a few 100 times would be lower than Singed? What do you mean when you say Singed is more complex than Aphelios? Nobody has any idea how Aphelios winrate looks between first timers and masters of the champion because well.... he isn't released yet. I have a feeling though that Singed will still be more rewarding to master than Aphelios
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=BldQMxdN,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-11-26T14:37:36.167+0000) > > Riot stated themselfes that Singed has the highest mastery curves out there from any champion, his WR Delta is comparable to Sol (pre-rework) / Katarina and it's higher than Riven, his WR peak from main is the highest out of all of the champs he posted on the list (AKA the most rewarding to master) > > Just search "mastery curve singed" on google and you find blaustoise tweet about it. But that's deceiving because it doesn't come from him being hard to play. It comes from the fact hat it takes games to get used to his playstyle, not that it's hard. In fact, the curve is not even high on him. Highest "curve" is actually a rising straight line. From singed's curve, we can see that his players are bad at him when they start playing him but get good at him VERY quickly and the curve doesn't really rise much after it. Compare it to katarina's curve. THAT is what it looks like when a champion has a high mastery curve. Her curve is still in a strong rising angle at the end of it. Singed's curve is similar to ivern's. They are unique and thus players tend to be bad at the the first few games but aren't hard to master. Singed is hard to pick up, not hard to master. Although from those champion in the tweet, he was still the one with the highest starting win rate.
> [{quoted}](name=GonahtanuGepardi,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=BldQMxdN,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2019-11-26T14:50:53.324+0000) > > But that's deceiving because it doesn't come from him being hard to play. It comes from the fact hat it takes games to get used to his playstyle, not that it's hard. > > In fact, the curve is not even high on him. Highest "curve" is actually a rising straight line. From singed's curve, we can see that his players are bad at him when they start playing him but get good at him VERY quickly and the curve doesn't really rise much after it. Compare it to katarina's curve. THAT is what it looks like when a champion has a high mastery curve. Her curve is still in a strong rising angle at the end of it. What I looked is WR Delta to determine how hard it is to master a champ. 14.1% for Singed 15.1% for Kat You might make the argument that if you increase the games played to 200 then Kat will have even higher WR Delta than Singed but we have no way to say it for sure. > Singed's curve is similar to ivern's. They are unique and thus players tend to be bad at the the first few games but aren't hard to master. Singed is hard to pick up, not hard to master. Singed's curve is similar to everyone else other than Kat (and maybe Vlad). Kat is the outliner on the list. Singed and Azir are pretty much identical (if you overall add like 5% winrate to Azir that is) > Although from those champion in the tweet, he was still the one with the highest starting win rate. I mean you could nerf him overall and he would drop down by 5% overall and it would be the same as the others. Thats why I only looked at WR Delta.
: >When you think about it, Aphelios is a marksman, all he does is auto with different effects. Auto with slow, with more range, with AOE jada jada blah blah. It is nothing too different from other ADCs, just give Udyr range and you have half of Aphelios kit already there. Wow, and here i thought i was the only one who saw it. His kit isn't actually even strong if you truly think about it. He might be the hardest hitting adc in the game after his release because of the bonus stats he gets but he still lacks tools to actually do stuff. He has only 2 abilities plus ult, his weapons have high ammo (50) so unless his q's use a lot of ammo, it takes a long time to switch weapons and even longer (at least 150 ammo) to get the weapon back that you just used and you are not going to basic 50 times in a team fight, not even close and the champion also lacks any form of mobility or durability or hard cc (very easy to kill). You don't get to choose your weapons for a fight most of the time so you are at the mercy of randomness and that is not a strength in your kit, it's a weakness. His kit has a lot of things but you can't use them at will at any point in time which means he isn't even remotely as overloaded as someone like azir was. >Singed is one of the hardest and actually THE most rewarding champ to master to this day, not Riven, not Sol, not Kalista, no it's Singed. This is something i completely disagree with. He is by far one of the easiest champions to play and master. He is the most unique, but he isn't hard by any means (you only need to get used to his uniqueness but that's not really hard) and how rewarding he is depends entirely on meta. He is one of those champions that is almost straight up overpowered at times and sometimes he is just god awful. And it's pretty much never related to the changes made to singed himself. It's always something else changing around him that affects him (like aftershock now).
> [{quoted}](name=GonahtanuGepardi,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=BldQMxdN,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-11-26T14:14:19.659+0000) > > This is something i completely disagree with. He is by far one of the easiest champions to play and master. He is the most unique, but he isn't hard by any means (you only need to get used to his uniqueness but that's not really hard) and how rewarding he is depends entirely on meta. He is one of those champions that is almost straight up overpowered at times and sometimes he is just god awful. And it's pretty much never related to the changes made to singed himself. It's always something else changing around him that affects him (like aftershock now). Riot stated themselfes that Singed has the highest mastery curves out there from any champion, his WR Delta is comparable to Sol (pre-rework) / Katarina and it's higher than Riven, his WR peak from main is the highest out of all of the champs he posted on the list (AKA the most rewarding to master) Just search "mastery curve singed" on google and you find blaustoise tweet about it.
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=BldQMxdN,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-11-26T12:03:54.329+0000) > > Yeah no not really, by that definition Lee R or Trist R are also skillshots and they are certainly not. they are tho... directing your kick properly is what makes a good lee player Trist also has an insec mechanic with her R and it has an AOE portion to it which means that it is a skillshot now if you don't use those skills to their fullest thats on you > What you mean is rather maximizing value from using the cc but the ability itself is a point and click spell. well maximizing the ability effectiveness is expressed through a skill shot the fact that both of those ults are point and clicks doesn't change the fact that their secondary effects are actual skill shots > It's the closest thing to a skillshot, the same way Anivia R would be a "skillshot". Not really a skillshot at the end of the day. so by that logic ziggs R isn't a skillshot? do you consider a skillshot only those abilities that travel in a line? > You totally missed the point. > > A) I never searched for a skilless champion, Singed is anything but skillless > > B) The thing I wanted to get across was that a champ with such a simple kit (Singed) manages to be more unique in terms of gameplay than champion with text upon text upon text in their abilities is just so baffling to me. yes he is the most unique champion with a relatively simple kit but how more complex is zoe for example? her E is a skillshot with a fixed travel distance that is bypassed by terrrain her Q is a very simple line skillshot that the line of drawing the skillshot doesn't start with the champions model and her R is a weaker leblanc W that is mainly used to setup her other 2 abilities and then she has some RNG shoved in her kit in the W so Zoe is probably as simple as singed but i don't think anyone would look at it in such a simplified manner and agree on this > I truly believe that the game would be SO much more fun if every champ was like Singed. > Just imagine every champ being able to do his own thing just like Singed. well most champions have unique play patterns just like singed champions back in the day were way more streemlined amumu and malphite are nearly identical but riot managed to seperate them a bit > Imagine if River Shen ACTUALLY worked. Imagine how fun it would be for supports to be able to go global. > To not be glued onto the bot late, imagine a global support alongside the jungler, Ambulance Soraka, Bard is the closest thing to such a support and Bard is actually a fun champ to play and to play against (IMO at least). thats how the meta evolved just like dota has a tri-lane meta option this isn't so much as riots decision it's more like how players found the best way to maximize resources around the map > Imagine a laner that cleares waves and just goes counterjungling and fuck with the enemy jungler. You mean what top laners should be doing? > The amount of possibilities to play the game would be endless. They are endless you just refuse to stray from the "meta" > All of that with kits so simple as Singed. i don't know about that
> [{quoted}](name=Thingamajig,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=BldQMxdN,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-11-26T12:20:14.851+0000) > > they are tho... > directing your kick properly is what makes a good lee player > Trist also has an insec mechanic with her R and it has an AOE portion to it which means that it is a skillshot > now if you don't use those skills to their fullest thats on you Bro.... you click on them. The meaning of a skillshot is to hit a skill that can be dodged. Hence the term Skill-Shot, you need skill to hit the shot. I'm not saying that Lee R or Trist R or Singed Fling DON'T need skill, but they are not skillshots. > so by that logic ziggs R isn't a skillshot? > do you consider a skillshot only those abilities that travel in a line? No but Anivia R and Singed goo are pretty much instant which makes it hard to miss. I consider a skillshot an ability that has travel time and can be dodged by the enemy. > yes he is the most unique champion with a relatively simple kit > but how more complex is zoe for example? her E is a skillshot with a fixed travel distance that is bypassed by terrrain > her Q is a very simple line skillshot that the line of drawing the skillshot doesn't start with the champions model > and her R is a weaker leblanc W that is mainly used to setup her other 2 abilities > and then she has some RNG shoved in her kit in the W > so Zoe is probably as simple as singed but i don't think anyone would look at it in such a simplified manner and agree on this Go to the wiki and compare their kits, here this is Zoes W description alone: > "PASSIVE - SPELL THIEF: Whenever enemy champions cast a Summoner spell or Active ability item, they drop the corresponding Spell Shard onto the ground that grants sight over a 100-radius area and remains for 40 seconds. Some enemy minions spawn with random Spell Shards that only drop to the ground for 20 seconds if killed by Zoe. > > Collecting a Spell Shard allows Zoe to activate Spell Thief within the next 60 seconds. She can replace her current Spell Thief active by moving directly onto another Spell Shard. > > ACTIVE: Zoe mimics the active of the collected Spell Shard. > > PASSIVE - WHEEEEE: Casting Spell Thief or one of her own summoner spells grants Zoe bonus movement speed for the next few seconds, and summons three bubbles that orbit her for the next 10 seconds. If Zoe is not immobilized she hurls one bubble at a time at the nearest enemy in range, prioritizing her attack target, dealing magic damage" And now we get to Singeds entire fucking kit: > P) INNATE: Moving near a champion grants Singed 20% bonus movement speed for 2 seconds. The effects of Noxious Slipstream can stack up to 25 times. > > Q) TOGGLE: Singed leaves a poison cloud behind him for 3.25 seconds. > > Enemies standing in the cloud's trail are poisoned for 2 seconds, taking magic damage every 0.25 seconds for the duration, continually refreshing while remaining in the affected area. > > W) ACTIVE: Singed covers the target area with a potent adhesive for 3 seconds, slowing by 60% and grounding all enemies within. > > E) ACTIVE: Singed flings the target enemy over his shoulder 550 units, dealing magic damage, capped against minions and monsters. > > Targets flung into Mega Adhesive's area of effect are temporarily rooted. > > R) ACTIVE: Singed drinks a potent chemical brew, bonus ability power, bonus armor, bonus magic resistance, bonus movement speed, bonus health regeneration, and bonus mana regeneration, all for the next 25 seconds. Singeds entire kit fits into Zoes W description alone, still think Zoe is simple? > well most champions have unique play patterns just like singed > champions back in the day were way more streemlined amumu and malphite are nearly identical but riot managed to seperate them a bit > > thats how the meta evolved > just like dota has a tri-lane meta option > this isn't so much as riots decision it's more like how players found the best way to maximize resources around the map > You mean what top laners should be doing? > They are endless you just refuse to stray from the "meta" You missed the point a second time, this time around even harder. Every champ has a game-pattern unique to them, nobody does what Gangplank does but a lot of champion behave like Gangplank does. There is NOTHING in the game that behaves like Singed, Singed can freely decide to stop laning and just proxy. What other champ can do that? So many kits so many "unique designs" and Singed is still the only one able to say "no I'm done laning, this isn't working time for plan B" You can't pick Zoe and run it down top prioritizing towers and it actually working out like Sion does/did. Zoe will be played the same for eternity, she is going mid most certainly, she is laning until laning phase is over, she will fight around objectives with her team and the game will be over at some point. 95% of champs do exactly that, THAT is what I mean with Singed is unique, no he doesn't have to lane, hell he doesn't even have to go to lane lvl 1 you can go straight to their base and double proxy then suicide and go back to lane with an advantage. Sion can go to their jungle, int to the red, take jungle camps and maybe even kill jungler then tp back to lane. Imagine if EVERY champ would have something like that.
: I'll agree Singed is one of if not the most unique champion in terms of playstyle (If you're playing proxy Singed). I'd say Gnar is a runner up with the whole form shift thing, as well as Aurelion Sol who also plays with the 'run near enemy champions to kill them' concept. Inting Sion is kinda just 0 damage tryndamere. Split push, take objectives. It's not as unique when you break it down. But I completely disagree with this statement: >Singed is one of the hardest and actually THE most rewarding champ to master to this day, not Riven, not Sol, not Kalista, no it's Singed. Not sure if you're a little biased here or what, but... Singed has a learning curve, yes, much like many other champions, but I feel like his skill ceiling... just isn't as high as other champions. Don't get me wrong, the difference between a good and bad Singed is noticeable, but _THE most rewarding?_ When I think of 'hard to master but rewarding' champions I think of things like Draven, Riven, Thresh, Nidalee, or Katarina. (honorable mentions to champions that are hard to master but not very rewarding bc nerfs: Kalista, Azir, Aurelion Sol)
> [{quoted}](name=TheUrbanKitsune,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=BldQMxdN,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-26T11:54:29.165+0000) > > I'll agree Singed is one of if not the most unique champion in terms of playstyle (If you're playing proxy Singed). > I'd say Gnar is a runner up with the whole form shift thing, as well as Aurelion Sol who also plays with the 'run near enemy champions to kill them' concept. > Inting Sion is kinda just 0 damage tryndamere. Split push, take objectives. It's not as unique when you break it down. > > But I completely disagree with this statement: > > Not sure if you're a little biased here or what, but... Singed has a learning curve, yes, much like many other champions, but I feel like his skill ceiling... just isn't as high as other champions. Don't get me wrong, the difference between a good and bad Singed is noticeable, but _THE most rewarding?_ > > When I think of 'hard to master but rewarding' champions I think of things like Draven, Riven, Thresh, Nidalee, or Katarina. (honorable mentions to champions that are hard to master but not very rewarding bc nerfs: Kalista, Azir, Aurelion Sol) I'm not biased it is backed up by Riot Data https://twitter.com/blaustoise/status/1075515580570980352 Look at Singeds winrate peak, those are like THE one trick champs and Singed is ontop of all of them. Yes it's older data but I don't have anything else to prove the claim further so i hope this is enough.
: singed has a skill shot singed has 2 skill shots no actually singed has 3 skill shots you see his movement is a skill shot if you've played against bad and good singed players you would understand the difference between how they move his fling IS a skillshot as it's a fixed distance behind you you can throw people over walls and your highest skill expression of flinging them into your goo for the snare and your goo is also a skillshot as you can easily miss it or have it be ineffective compared to what it can do if you want a true skilles champion look at garen in no world would you ever consider garen a skill relient champion and you would be right as his success is based on game knowledge the better you are at the GAME the better you are at Garen now you are complaining that the champion is too complicated and people were saying the same for zoe the same for qiyana the same for kayn the same for kai'sa the same for many other champions but in reality once you understood their pattern they became extremely easy to see what they are doing even yasuo is extremely simple despite all his mechanics as his mastery is through repetition and not knowledge most bronze to gold yas mains do key and bayblades consistently i've even seen silver zoe mains that play their champ really fluently but just int due to knowledge gaps or tilt so league is far from complex on a champ design level Dota has far more complex champions and item system the complexity of league comes in decision making and not champion design knowing when you can win a 1v1 knowing when you can force a baron knowing when you can counter jungle knowing how to trade knowing how to control your minions knowing when to push towers far more complex concepts in both execution and understanding than any champion that has ever been designed in league tl;dr champions in league are simple and we would benefit from more complexity note that difficulty of execution=/= complex
> [{quoted}](name=Thingamajig,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=BldQMxdN,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-26T11:49:40.816+0000) > > you see his movement is a skill shot > if you've played against bad and good singed players you would understand the difference between how they move > his fling IS a skillshot > as it's a fixed distance behind you you can throw people over walls and your highest skill expression of flinging them into your goo for the snare Yeah no not really, by that definition Lee R or Trist R are also skillshots and they are certainly not. What you mean is rather maximizing value from using the cc but the ability itself is a point and click spell. > and your goo is also a skillshot as you can easily miss it or have it be ineffective compared to what it can do It's the closest thing to a skillshot, the same way Anivia R would be a "skillshot". Not really a skillshot at the end of the day. > if you want a true skilles champion look at garen > in no world would you ever consider garen a skill relient champion > and you would be right as his success is based on game knowledge > the better you are at the GAME the better you are at Garen > > now you are complaining that the champion is too complicated > and people were saying the same for zoe > the same for qiyana > the same for kayn > the same for kai'sa > the same for many other champions > but in reality once you understood their pattern they became extremely easy to see what they are doing > > even yasuo is extremely simple despite all his mechanics as his mastery is through repetition and not knowledge most bronze to gold yas mains do key and bayblades consistently > i've even seen silver zoe mains that play their champ really fluently but just int due to knowledge gaps or tilt > > so league is far from complex on a champ design level > Dota has far more complex champions and item system > the complexity of league comes in decision making and not champion design > > knowing when you can win a 1v1 > knowing when you can force a baron > knowing when you can counter jungle > knowing how to trade > knowing how to control your minions > knowing when to push towers > > far more complex concepts in both execution and understanding than any champion that has ever been designed in league You totally missed the point. A) I never searched for a skilless champion, Singed is anything but skillless B) The thing I wanted to get across was that a champ with such a simple kit (Singed) manages to be more unique in terms of gameplay than champion with text upon text upon text in their abilities is just so baffling to me. I truly believe that the game would be SO much more fun if every champ was like Singed. Just imagine every champ being able to do his own thing just like Singed. Imagine if River Shen ACTUALLY worked. Imagine how fun it would be for supports to be able to go global. To not be glued onto the bot late, imagine a global support alongside the jungler, Ambulance Soraka, Bard is the closest thing to such a support and Bard is actually a fun champ to play and to play against (IMO at least). Imagine a laner that cleares waves and just goes counterjungling and fuck with the enemy jungler. The amount of possibilities to play the game would be endless. All of that with kits so simple as Singed.
Rioter Comments
ßlameMyADC (EUNE)
: Is there a point in complaining on the boards?
If you insult a specific rioter in your title the chance of them responding is higher than normal Don't bother with well built posts they aren't going to read it
GreenKnight (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=63evByUP,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-11-19T10:26:53.706+0000) > > There would be ways to help her with that without introducing an omni-spell into the game. > > For example like the Q consuming the mist from the targets and dealing bonus damage to those once Senna has auto attacked them. > > Seems like a stupid idea to make the spell this way because it just feels like an Ezreal case to me, where she will break things with it. But then what about turrets? Wards, both allied and unfriendly ones? Mobs? Her Q, being what it is now, is the best answer for her slow attack issue.
There are champs with way worse turret damage than Senna, doesn't even have to be AP. > Wards, both allied and unfriendly ones? Mobs? Jhin also has issues with wards, why do you need AS for friendly wards? She is a support, shouldn't need AS for mobs. > Her Q, being what it is now, is the best answer for her slow attack issue. Yes until she breaks an item like Ezreal, until then it's fine, question is what will you do when that happens.
GreenKnight (EUNE)
: She has low Attack Speed. I'm guessing designers made her Q proc everything, in order to help her with that.
There would be ways to help her with that without introducing an omni-spell into the game. For example like the Q consuming the mist from the targets and dealing bonus damage to those once Senna has auto attacked them. Seems like a stupid idea to make the spell this way because it just feels like an Ezreal case to me, where she will break things with it.
Rioter Comments
Xavanic (NA)
: Can we get a champ like deathwing or jormungandr?
let me get this straight... you want a champ that is cc-immune 24/7? How about no?
: >In what way are they abusing it? They are using it for its intented purpose, it's like saying tanks abuse afterschock because they gain huge amount of resistances to trade easily. It's what afterschock is made for. Aftershock works the exact same for every champ that uses it, it was designed for Tankier champions, so no they are not abusing it. However before it was nerfed, certain champions who were not supposed to be using it were abusing it. Abusing something in this context means, using something better than it was intended to be used. Klepto was not meant to be used to make Late game champions into Mid game champions, it is destroying balance. > No Klepto isn't the main Keystone on Udyr / Luc / Fiora / Illaoi / Sona / Draven, they can however spec into it for example when playing against a tank matchup. >They spec into it, they normally use another one. Pretty much every champion can use every Keystone what is your point? We are of course talking about the champions you claimed "relied" on Klepto, so I don't understand why you are bringing up champions that can possibly use it. All those champions have many different possible Keystones and removing Klepto would have 0 impact on them. >Spare me with this shit, the concept of late game has been thrown out of the window, look at Vayne, she doesn't use this rune and still becomes a hypercarry with 2 items. >Tristana going mid and finding success which is insane for a late game hypercarry >Twitch going jungle as a late game hypercarry and every lane having to sit back at the tower until he eventually shows himself somewhere >Late game hypercarry powerspikes already happen in mid game with or without this rune. Vayne doesn't become a carry until later in the game unless she gets fed or is allowed to free farm. I rarely see Vayne but when I do, she gets chain ganked because she is useless. Tristana going mid is another case of abuse, she shouldn't be going mid. Twitch jungle was a big deal a while back, but now its fallen off now its a very niche pick that can be countered with awareness and aggressive counter jungling. You are describing exactly what I am talking about, please point out where I said Klepto was the only source of abuse? What because Tristana Mid was a thing a couple patches ago, we shouldn't remove other forms of imbalance? Get rid of it all. >Ah so ranged tops have been a problem with it so the entire game needs Klepto removed? what? >Ez hasn't been a problem with it post nerf, mid lane has no klepto problems, ADC has no klepto problems, jungle has none and support doesn't have them either. Yes! What the hell are you talking about? It is a huge problem only in Top and Ezreal, those are the only places it is used and it is breaking in the game in those spots... You don't see it Mid because no mid laner uses it... You don't see it in the Jungle because no Jungler uses it... It is breaking Top lane and making Ezreal a nightmare too early into the game. This is the exact reason things get nerfed. I am not sure what your point is.
> Aftershock works the exact same for every champ that uses it, it was designed for Tankier champions, so no they are not abusing it. However before it was nerfed, certain champions who were not supposed to be using it were abusing it. Abusing something in this context means, using something better than it was intended to be used. Klepto was not meant to be used to make Late game champions into Mid game champions, it is destroying balance. Ah then thell me what is klepto being used for then? Lane sustain? Only Keystones that gives you gold, level ups and almost no reliable combat stats Seems like a keystone to help get your items quicker and scale faster.... which in return you know... makes it so you spike quicker. Or do you use Klepto to get oracles and spot invisible units? > Pretty much every champion can use every Keystone what is your point? We are of course talking about the champions you claimed "relied" on Klepto, so I don't understand why you are bringing up champions that can possibly use it. All those champions have many different possible Keystones and removing Klepto would have 0 impact on them. Ah yeah who doesn't know Lethal Tempo Vladimir. The only champ that relies on Klepto is Ezreal. By your logic we shouldn't let champs decide what keystone they want and just give them one! Who gives a shit about alternative playstyles, as soon as you lock in a champ it auto locks a keystone for you, sounds like fun! By removing Klepto you are removing a bunch of alternative playstyles for the reason of adding this useless crap. The reason is pissing me off, if this new rune at least gave the game other alternative playstyles that champs can work with instead of a steaming pile of horse shit I wouldn't care. But it doesn't that's why I care. I hate when alternative playstyles get removed, I also hate the removal of splitpush items, yeah dude we haven't had enough 5 v 5 deathballs at dragon pit we need more of them! > Vayne doesn't become a carry until later in the game unless she gets fed or is allowed to free farm. I rarely see Vayne but when I do, she gets chain ganked because she is useless. Tristana going mid is another case of abuse, she shouldn't be going mid. Twitch jungle was a big deal a while back, but now its fallen off now its a very niche pick that can be countered with awareness and aggressive counter jungling. You are describing exactly what I am talking about, please point out where I said Klepto was the only source of abuse? What because Tristana Mid was a thing a couple patches ago, we shouldn't remove other forms of imbalance? Get rid of it all. What does this have to do with what I said? Your argument: Klepto makes it so late game hypercarries scale way too fast My Argument: Klepto has nothing to do with it but rather that Riots balance team is the equivalent of monkeys drooling on themselfes. Your argument: Late game carries going mid / jungle is another abuse case a) you just said it yourself that it has nothing to do with Klepto b) Late game hypercarries going to other lanes is again the work of riots "balance" team, has nothing to do with Klepto So why are we removing klepto?! > Yes! What the hell are you talking about? It is a huge problem only in Top and Ezreal, those are the only places it is used and it is breaking in the game in those spots... You don't see it Mid because no mid laner uses it... You don't see it in the Jungle because no Jungler uses it... It is breaking Top lane and making Ezreal a nightmare too early into the game. This is the exact reason things get nerfed. I am not sure what your point is. What part of klepto Ezreal is a problem?! What part of Ezreal stops becoming a problem when you remove klepto?! And don't tell me "because he scales too fast" Ah so you're telling me Nasus going klepto is destroying top lane? I find it kind of hard to believe that. Just admit that the only real problem with this keystone are ranged tops like Kennen and Vayne. Nobody gives a shit about Klepto melees in the top lane, absolutely nobody.
: I agree with your point however after giving a deep thought I started to think that maybe someone like Fiora/Camille could use it. Because Currently both Fiora and Camille abuse Kleptomancy/Grasp of the Undying/Conqueror/Press the Attack There are certain Champs who can be good with this who can always stay on top of their targets. But at the end of the day this Rune is just pointless. They couldn't think of any Rune Concepts at that time that could replace Kleptomancy and remain healthy without causing another game impacting meta.
> I agree with your point however after giving a deep thought I started to think that maybe someone like Fiora/Camille could use it. > > Because Currently both Fiora and Camille abuse Kleptomancy/Grasp of the Undying/Conqueror/Press the Attack The problem with this mindset is that yes they can use it, but they don't want to. There is a reason why Fiora isn't going Hail of Blades, because she doesn't want it. Can she use it? yes of course why not but why use Hail of Blades when you have better options? Just go Conq, why take a wager? If the rune said "your kills grant you +100 gold" then I can understand because you're giving up some rune power for a potential reward. But there is nothing to gain! You just use sub-optimal runes until you roll Afterschock on Fiora and ask yourself how dogshit this keystone is.
: Conq is being changed and Lucian certainly can support it even if pta is probably still better. Ezreal is likely a better reworked Conq user than Lucian.
Ah sorry missed the 8 seconds thing. Anyway after it's nerfed down to the current 2 seconds for ranged thanks to Ryze and Cassio it wont be viable on Ezreal. The 8 seconds aren't going to stay 8 seconds for ranged I can guarantee you that.
GreenKnight (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RRx2yi2s,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-11-13T09:30:53.356+0000) > > ?? > > What Keystone will he use if I may ask and what part of Klepto has made an Ezreal play less? Conqueror, is my guess.
If not even Luc can support Conq then Ezreal sure as hell can't No he will switch to some bullshit like maybe Aery or Dark Harvest
Neriticc (EUW)
: So when the majority of players are picking Grasp GP, yeah the champ is dead.
I was talking about Ezreal not GP, GP can just go Grasp yeah. However against tank matchups he will struggle to find the right keystone because Grasp isn't it.
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RRx2yi2s,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-11-13T08:31:59.556+0000) > > Aight imagine this > > You get Aery into Comet into Afterschock into Phase rush into Predator into Fleet Footwork into Lethal Tempo > > Doesn't look better than just going Conq does it? Also the general sense that Jax really likes the precision tree in so him going Inspiration as the main tree is also a "tax" you have to pay to get the "bonuses" from Omnistone > > Again, I don't see a reason why a champ would want to get 7 sub-optimal or straight up troll runes to maybe get 3 that kinda work on him. > > Also why not just make a 4th keystone for the tree if this rune just HAS to be in the game? Why remove something people actually use for this? It had to be removed because ranger champs kept abusing it (just like they abuse everything) and their was little to no counterplay to them doing that. The problem was not so much kelpto as it was the inherent issue of melee champions not having enough reliable ways to punish punish ranged champions for sitting back and farming Klepto profs off of them.
So the entire argument I heard for removing klepto in this post is because "ranged tops" if ranged tops are an issue with klepto (a little hint, they are an issue without this rune aswell) then why not... I don't know... deal with ranged tops? Also I don't get why you are listing Rengar as an example he is melee
KazKaz (OCE)
: {{champion:114}}
Who doesn't know the good'ol predator on Fiora or afterschock or aery or comet or dark harvest or glacial augument or phase rush or lethal tempo Still think Fiora wants that keystone? Just because she can use a wide variety of keystones doesn't mean she can use all of them which this keystones provides you with and if you can only use the keystones for their full potential half of the time then that means you can only use this keystone to it's full potential only half of the time, in which case why not just pick a keystone you can use optimally 100% of the time? why take a wager for nothing?
: As if Klepto isn't just as bad... Those champs don't rely on Klepto, they abuse it. Plain and simple. All of those champs can use other keystones just as well, they just prefer Klepto because, again, they are abusing it. It basically takes Late game champs and brings their powerspikes into the Mid game, which is a huge freaking problem, specially in Top lane where they are either beyond oppressive or the most boring lanes you can do nothing about. Omnistone seems like a really poor change to be fair, but Kleptomancy needs to leave the game for good.
> Those champs don't rely on Klepto, they abuse it In what way are they abusing it? They are using it for its intented purpose, it's like saying tanks abuse afterschock because they gain huge amount of resistances to trade easily. It's what afterschock is made for. > All of those champs can use other keystones just as well, they just prefer Klepto because, again, they are abusing it. No Klepto isn't the main Keystone on Udyr / Luc / Fiora / Illaoi / Sona / Draven, they can however spec into it for example when playing against a tank matchup. They spec into it, they normally use another one. > It basically takes Late game champs and brings their powerspikes into the Mid game, which is a huge freaking problem Spare me with this shit, the concept of late game has been thrown out of the window, look at Vayne, she doesn't use this rune and still becomes a hypercarry with 2 items. Tristana going mid and finding success which is insane for a late game hypercarry Twitch going jungle as a late game hypercarry and every lane having to sit back at the tower until he eventually shows himself somewhere Late game hypercarry powerspikes already happen in mid game with or without this rune. > in Top lane where they are either beyond oppressive or the most boring lanes you can do nothing about. Stuff like Vayne or Kennen going top with Klepto has to do with the fact that uninteractive ranged damaged in top is way too effective. For that to be fixed you need to buff dorans shield to give a melee only bonus that has damage reduction towards auto attacks or single target spells, not by removing klepto. > Omnistone seems like a really poor change to be fair, but Kleptomancy needs to leave the game for good. Ah so ranged tops have been a problem with it so the entire game needs Klepto removed? what? Ez hasn't been a problem with it post nerf, mid lane has no klepto problems, ADC has no klepto problems, jungle has none and support doesn't have them either.
GreenKnight (EUNE)
: You mean that Ezreal will have to actually PLAY now?
?? What Keystone will he use if I may ask and what part of Klepto has made an Ezreal play less?
: > [{quoted}](name=WoonStruck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aNMAaHQA,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-13T05:23:52.147+0000) > > Except...even if they nerf adaptive force overall...you're still getting the same amount with the old version as this new version...it'd be just as nerfed as other instances of adaptive force. > > Think about it for a minute. Do the math. I think we're having an issue with communication here. I'm aware that eyeball collections isn't changing with this patch. What I'm saying is that the adaptive force changes will affect other uses of adaptive force outside of eyeball collections. If they left eyeball collections alone (10 stacks, 10 adaptive force) and nerfed adaptive force, the total AD/AP would be halved. By doubling the stacks on eyeball collection and doubling the rate at which it's earned, they've simply prevented eyeball collections from getting hit by the nerf to adaptive force. I do think that it's weird that they'd change the number of stacks in such a way rather than simply doubling the amount of adaptive force that each stack gives, but the purpose is identical regardless. The change was made to prevent the adaptive force nerf from impacting eyeball collection. Simple as that.
Dude... what? AIright let's make a number example, 10 adaptive force is 10 AP ok? "Old" Eyeball collection gives you 10 adaptive force at 10 stacks with 1 stack per take down "New" Eyeball collection gives you 10 adaptive force at 20 stacks with 2 stacks per takedown Both of them need 10 kills to fully stacks Both give 10 AP at full stacks Now let's say you nerf adaptive force so 10 adaptive force is now worth 8 AP Both now give 8 AP at full stacks and still take the same amount of takedown to finish. Both will be nerfed by the same value between the range from 0 stacks to full stacks. They're the exact same shit
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RRx2yi2s,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-11-13T08:31:59.556+0000) > > Aight imagine this > > You get Aery into Comet into Afterschock into Phase rush into Predator into Fleet Footwork into Lethal Tempo > > Doesn't look better than just going Conq does it? Also the general sense that Jax really likes the precision tree in so him going Inspiration as the main tree is also a "tax" you have to pay to get the "bonuses" from Omnistone > > Again, I don't see a reason why a champ would want to get 7 sub-optimal or straight up troll runes to maybe get 3 that kinda work on him. > > Also why not just make a 4th keystone for the tree if this rune just HAS to be in the game? Why remove something people actually use for this? its random. dude. its random.
I'm aware? The Keystone can also high roll on Keystones you actually want... at the same time, why not just pick the damn Keystone you actually want instead of hoping to get it?
: There is a champ that this could be good on: Jax. Jax benefits from more keystones then most champs so if you did a specific build tailored towards this rune it might be viable on him. As a Jax main I will be experimenting with this in norms to see if I can find a viable build.
Aight imagine this You get Aery into Comet into Afterschock into Phase rush into Predator into Fleet Footwork into Lethal Tempo Doesn't look better than just going Conq does it? Also the general sense that Jax really likes the precision tree in so him going Inspiration as the main tree is also a "tax" you have to pay to get the "bonuses" from Omnistone Again, I don't see a reason why a champ would want to get 7 sub-optimal or straight up troll runes to maybe get 3 that kinda work on him. Also why not just make a 4th keystone for the tree if this rune just HAS to be in the game? Why remove something people actually use for this?
: I would give up my klepto gp for all the klepto ranged abusers top lane But yea omni looks troll
You're not just giving up Klepto GP for it, you're giving up a champ that fully relies on it and around 10 other user that like to spec into it
Rioter Comments
: >but unfortunately they were played in mid and bot (AKA not top lane) Why did you have to make your thread invalid with that wrong claim? Pyke got played in the top lane as a solo laner, so this is obviously not true.
Yeah but he got ALSO played in mid, and we can't have anything anti-fun outside of top lane so that is why he is getting fucked over if you want to continue playing him in a solo lane
: "ggez"
People would change to "gg e-z" "ggezzz" "gee gee eezy" "literally uninstall the game lmao you have no future in this game you hardstuck Iron 4 #@#@# literally sitting in this elo for 400 games LUL, you're an insult to humanity and to your family don't act like you don't know it yourself you sad little #@#@# stick to one trickking Annie maybe then you will achieve something in your life that doesn't end in total failure" "gg eeasey" If people want to rub something in your face they will find a way so censoring ggez wont do anything.
Jamaree (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XsM8jHxp,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-21T11:39:44.934+0000) > > Of course you would prefer this one because this one is unplayable in SoloQ > > Would you also prefer the freshly reworked version? Yes, because even that still had more counterplay then the old one.
> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XsM8jHxp,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-21T11:49:58.800+0000) > > Yes, because even that still had more counterplay then the old one. Yeah you banned her, that was the counterplay
Jamaree (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RAdrZf2P,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-06-21T11:46:05.981+0000) > > Don't know from where you're finding a 56% winrate, the highest I can see is 53% on Plat+ (League of Graphs) > > Also the champ has a 1% banrate want to compare that to the shit that is happening over at top? Sorry, 52 to 56% https://u.gg/lol/champions/sona/build/?rank=iron https://u.gg/lol/champions/sona/build/?rank=bronze https://u.gg/lol/champions/sona/build/?rank=silver https://u.gg/lol/champions/sona/build/?rank=gold https://u.gg/lol/champions/sona/build/?rank=platinum https://u.gg/lol/champions/sona/build/?rank=diamond https://u.gg/lol/champions/sona/build/?rank=master https://u.gg/lol/champions/sona/build/?rank=grandmaster https://u.gg/lol/champions/sona/build/?rank=challenger Because people are too busy banning other shit, the Taric Sona strat is dumb, but because people are so caught up on the other things, she just gets to cost on her beyond stupid win rate freely, much like how Jinx is.
The ranks Master / Grandmaster / Challenger shouldn't be counted when discussing raw winrate numbers. Sample size is too small so the highest elo you can count in there is diamond with the 53% I mentioned above. It's not 56% it's 53%
Jamaree (NA)
: Sona had...like a 56% win rate?
Don't know from where you're finding a 56% winrate, the highest I can see is 53% on Plat+ (League of Graphs) Also the champ has a 1% banrate want to compare that to the shit that is happening over at top?
Jamaree (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XsM8jHxp,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-06-21T08:20:16.254+0000) > > You know what the funny part is? > > She was easier to deal with in that state than she is now. > Maybe "just have more stats" is actually healthier than "I have 13 dashes and can go invisible for 10 seconds but I'm skillshot oriented so it's fine lmao just dodge" > > Back then you had to get a Hexdrinker and boom done or a Negatron when you were a mage, boom done. > Now? If she is remotely viable just ban her because there is nothing else to do, what an improvement. I would prefer this over that one ANY day.
> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XsM8jHxp,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-06-21T10:19:05.128+0000) > > I would prefer this over that one ANY day. Of course you would prefer this one because this one is unplayable in SoloQ Would you also prefer the freshly reworked version?
Rioter Comments
Yenn (NA)
: Ryze needs his safety improved in order to be viable outside of top lane
> Increase Flux range and partially revert the bounce, so it doesn't go to champions unless it kills the minion. This will incidentally make him less overbearing in top lane, as he can no longer dumpster melee champions without meeting any conditions. No actually it will make it impossible for top laners to deal with Ryze. You're "condition" is literally the old condition before the rework and that hasn't stopped Ryze from terrorizing top whenever he was viable in general. If you improve Ryze safety by range he will ESPECIALLY be better in top lane, not mid. What you need to do is reduce safety against heavy engage / melee aggression and increase safety against ranged poke / waveclear to make him better in mid.
Jamaree (NA)
: No one complained about old Akali because she didn't get played, and when she did, people realized how cancer a "have the stats to survive my level six or die" no counterplay champion she was.
> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XsM8jHxp,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-06-21T07:58:08.969+0000) > > No one complained about old Akali because she didn't get played, and when she did, people realized how cancer a "have the stats to survive my level six or die" no counterplay champion she was. You know what the funny part is? She was easier to deal with in that state than she is now. Maybe "just have more stats" is actually healthier than "I have 13 dashes and can go invisible for 10 seconds but I'm skillshot oriented so it's fine lmao just dodge" Back then you had to get a Hexdrinker and boom done or a Negatron when you were a mage, boom done. Now? If she is remotely viable just ban her because there is nothing else to do, what an improvement.
nelogis (EUW)
: Skarner is now a Diver, not a Juggernaut. Poppy used to be a Fighter Subclass, now she is a tank. Reworks can shift the playpattern of a champion. Same with Sion rework or Urgot rework
okay, tell me how his kit comparable to the rest of the Juggernauts I posted
nelogis (EUW)
: Skarner is now a Diver, not a Juggernaut. Poppy used to be a Fighter Subclass, now she is a tank. Reworks can shift the playpattern of a champion. Same with Sion rework or Urgot rework
He got a rework, he didn't always had those crystals on the map And never was it stated anywhere that he got reworked INTO a Juggernaut, he might have been one before the rework hence why they called it a Juggernaut update because Juggernauts got changed, doesn't mean every single one of them stayed a Juggernaut
Xavanic (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cO89Kven,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-14T09:48:01.020+0000) > > Skarner isn't a Juggernaut what the hell > > These are the only Juggernauts in the game: > > {{champion:266}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:102}} {{champion:48}} {{champion:77}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:83}} > > These are the ONLY Juggernauts, there isn't any other one. > > https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Juggernaut_champion not quite sure when skarner just randomly stopped being a juggernaut, he was never drastically changed since he was updated in the JUGGERNAUT REWORK, this is a case of the wiki being wrong....
Skarner is now a Diver, not a Juggernaut. Poppy used to be a Fighter Subclass, now she is a tank. Reworks can shift the playpattern of a champion. Same with Sion rework or Urgot rework
Xavanic (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Dyromic,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cO89Kven,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-14T09:27:23.427+0000) > > Juggernauts are immobile damage machines with no or very little CC in their kits: > {{champion:122}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:48}} {{champion:83}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:6}} see the problem this idea is, {{champion:72}} is a jugguarnaut and he has a decent amount of CC
Skarner isn't a Juggernaut what the hell These are the only Juggernauts in the game: {{champion:266}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:102}} {{champion:48}} {{champion:77}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:83}} These are the ONLY Juggernauts, there isn't any other one. https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Juggernaut_champion
: Quick Tip: Did you know..
I don't think Riot handles out bans when people are toxic in direct messages. You kind of agreed to talk with the guy by accepting the friend request
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=naHsArw8,comment-id=0000000000000001000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-11T15:04:47.834+0000) > > He has absolutely no reason to trade with you if you are the one losing cs because you are waiting for him to push so you can start "wave manipulating", which will be the equivalent to cs-ing under turret since he wont let the wave crash into you unless it will be under your turret how did you even get 70% win rate with gp without understanding wave manipulation ... i guess mid lane is way too dependant on wave clear and not so much on actually actively manipulating the lane > You are the one screaming wave management but fail to understand even the most basics of it ... > He is in total control of the wave if you don't go aggressive and you can't go aggressive because it's TK ... > Funny how the champs I listed follow the theory I just told you > But keep picking Nasus into Renekton I guess then keep picking imobile champs into tahm kench fuck up your wave control and expect to be winning the lane your double standards are showing > Doesn't matter if the game ends in 25 minutes because you couldn't do anything to stop the game from ending If he played it well he should win at that time your goal in the game is to prevent that > How great yeah lets just keep it that way NO! > Actually let's ENFORCE IT! where did i say i was enforcing or liking it bot lane decides games since forever it's not an opinion it's a fact > Go play mid GP pls do it, for the love of god just do it. But in your main elo in ranked, not normals where everyone trolls. everyone trolls even in my main elo and i dislike gp as a champion im not going to start playing adc because they decide games im going to be playing my game and try to beat them while doing so you are the only ones refusing to adapt > Go gain your 70% winrate with the unkillable lane bully GP mid. irrelevant for me it's a comment towards your achievement but i guess me expecting you to understand why you are having such success was ambitious on my part > Your concept of winning lane is being behind 20 cs and hoping your other lanes won. no my concept of winning lane by losing in cs is that in reality it is so against tahm kench specifically this concept isn't applicable against all champions but it is particularly applicable when fighting tahm kench
> how did you even get 70% win rate with gp without understanding wave manipulation ... i guess mid lane is way too dependant on wave clear and not so much on actually actively manipulating the lane Oh all knowing messiah pls tell me why TK would do anything but slow push the wave while he starves you out of CS and on the last one just let it all crash into your tower. There is literally nothing else logical to do what do you want to do? heal enemy minions? sorry lad doesn't work anymore, hasnt worked for a long time actually. > then keep picking imobile champs into tahm kench fuck up your wave control and expect to be winning the lane > your double standards are showing And you can keep picking your safe ranged champs with PR into TK or pick TK yourself and never understand what the problem is. > If he played it well he should win at that time > your goal in the game is to prevent that If I want to prevent that I need to be the aggressor and you can't be the aggressor against TK. He is like a stone wall. > where did i say i was enforcing or liking it bot lane decides games since forever > it's not an opinion it's a fact You justified the argument of TK making yourself as useless as himself after laning phase with these words. > you are the only ones refusing to adapt Oh but we couldn't adapt to Heimer bot or Malzahar support or Maokai support or literally any mage in the bot position ever picked! But when it comes to top we gotta adapt, we have to adapt to that Neeko we have to adapt to the Vayne to the Viktor to Akali to Lissandra to Karma to Rengar because when it comes to top lane the balance jumps down into an abyss. No, top is done adapting, it has the biggest champ pool of all lanes, go take your adaptation and put it somewhere else. That ADC role looks kind of stingy put the diversity there and watch them cry that they are getting poked under tower by Xerath Veigar barraging them with spells non stop and then tell them to adapt. > irrelevant for me it's a comment towards your achievement but i guess me expecting you to understand why you are having such success was ambitious on my part I have 1.2 million mastery points on GP i know everything there is to know about this champion and since it looks like you haven't had a single actual GP game under your belt, the only logical thing would be is to listen to the guy saying GP mid is anything but abusive or unkillable, the reason I find success with the guy in mid is because he scales harder than most mages not because I bully out the mages from mid. > but it is particularly applicable when fighting tahm kench That isn't winning, that is hoping that your team isn't shit If you call that playing the game might as well toss a coin.
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=naHsArw8,comment-id=00000000000000010000000100000000,timestamp=2019-06-11T14:03:28.613+0000) > > He is in charge of the wave since he is the aggressor? hello? > Your tip here is banking on TK fucking up his own wave management if he wants to trade with you he will be pushing the wave do i really need to explain wave manipulation to you > I told you 2 times by now what is strong against Rene, I wont repeat myself again, maybe don't pick the guy that can neither cc buffer his combo or force a longer trade against him, might be a start who knows. theory is a fine argument > This doesn't even have anything to do with wave manipulation do you just like the word or what? it does > Pre-rework Nunu levels of stupid like I said, at this point all the champion does is to make the enemy as useless as himself, great. you mean the champion that could only deny your own jungle was stupid indeed > Darius is decent into TK in a sense that he can cheese TK in early levels, after TK has 1 tank item Darius has to sit back again and "wave manipulation" AKA miss half the cs i beat tk with darius throughout all parts of the game after i beat him once wave manipulation is your biggest friend bro > Winning lane =/= Surviving lane against tk it's synonymous as TKs win rate drops 6% with game time with him having the highest winrate at 20minutes > If you wanted to have an impact on the game then you can forget that, oh bot lost? well you made yourself useless since you had Tahm as an enemy so you automatically lost aswell, gg wp haha better top wins since when was top lane relevant lol bot lane decides games since ever > Jesus christ pls go play GP mid before telling me he is abusive in lane > The mid lane GP terror lmao, post this on the GP mains subreddit so they can have a laugh, we're in pretty dire times for GP as a champ they could use the laugh. yes im seeing plenty of gp mains cry rivers including tobias and then i am seeing challenger gp mains that can't be killed in lane how can you be ignoring this strength of his while having 70% win rate with him? beyond me > Yeah you just don't play against Tahm and if you do you pick safe ranged matchups there isn't any other explanation off the top of my head on why you can't see a difference. more than one way to win a lane killing your opponent is just 1 of those ways hard concept i know
> if he wants to trade with you he will be pushing the wave > do i really need to explain wave manipulation to you He has absolutely no reason to trade with you if you are the one losing cs because you are waiting for him to push so you can start "wave manipulating", which will be the equivalent to cs-ing under turret since he wont let the wave crash into you unless it will be under your turret You are the one screaming wave management but fail to understand even the most basics of it He is in total control of the wave if you don't go aggressive and you can't go aggressive because it's TK > theory is a fine argument Funny how the champs I listed follow the theory I just told you But keep picking Nasus into Renekton I guess > against tk it's synonymous as TKs win rate drops 6% with game time with him having the highest winrate at 20minutes Doesn't matter if the game ends in 25 minutes because you couldn't do anything to stop the game from ending > since when was top lane relevant lol > bot lane decides games since ever How great yeah lets just keep it that way NO! Actually let's ENFORCE IT! Any top laner that has more gold than the ADC will be robbed of their gold, how dare these filthy creatues try to play the game and have an impact fucking monkeys deserve to be in the cage god dammit! Great mind set, you work at the balance team by any chance? > yes im seeing plenty of gp mains cry rivers including tobias > and then i am seeing challenger gp mains that can't be killed in lane > how can you be ignoring this strength of his while having 70% win rate with him? beyond me Go play mid GP pls do it, for the love of god just do it. But in your main elo in ranked, not normals where everyone trolls. Go gain your 70% winrate with the unkillable lane bully GP mid. > more than one way to win a lane > killing your opponent is just 1 of those ways > hard concept i know Your concept of winning lane is being behind 20 cs and hoping your other lanes won. A real winner
Shahamut (NA)
: I'd rather fight Tahm than Neeko...
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=naHsArw8,comment-id=000000000000000100000001,timestamp=2019-06-11T12:31:16.076+0000) > > He is going to do the same shit the next time you are trying to cs? > Then what? > wave manipulation hard concept > Run away for the entire laning phase? wave manipulation ultra hard concept > Not even Renekton is that oppressive and that really says something. some champions have absolutely no answer to renekton and can't even stay under turret the days of picking nasus into renekton and thinking i can farm under tower are long gona tabis and chain vest? well he still does 40% of my hp for 1 turret shot so all he has to do is repeat the trade 3 times and i can't really trade back into him if somehow the renekton player is trash and lets you live through the lane phase you can start winning but as i said depending on the player to fuck up is different from depending on the counter play to fuck up > No he can't, only looks like he denies the damage because he heals it at the same time. > Same with QSS, you can get away from the cc but the damage will still be dealt. then what ive experienced is a bug since ive devoured rengars with 100 hp and they go out of my belly with 400 hp and as far as i know damage comes before healing as the damage is dealt after throwing up your opponent some cleanses may completely ignore the throw up part of the ability > You just traded a 20 second cooldown and an 80 mana ability that will run you oom faster than a Brand starting with cull and spamming abilities off cooldown for a 6 second ability and 50 mana > FeelsGoodMan first 4 levels wave manipulation uber hard concept > Yes and how many champs actually want PR outside of not dying to Tahm? Also what keeps Tahm away from just getting PR himself, or even better, how are you going to hit him 3 times (if you are a melee) before he will devourer / stun you and win the trade no matter what? > Do you want to be able to lane successfully and get out of the lane safely or tunnel on a build path? your choice > Of course Swain with Phase Rush will be able to escape or Ryze with Phase Rush > except for swain Ryze is meta and is really strong vlad also uses phase rush but vlad doesn't have the damage to punch through the health pool of kench so having PR doesn't really matter in that matchup he can easily farm and sustain through it tho > Tell me one > darius surprisingly does really well into kench keep the trades short and you reach a point where you can kill him before he can kill you ie COUNTER PLAY oh my god super hard concept > Yeah dude you just have to never get close to him AKA lose about 60% of all cs, you have to get a Keystone you propably don't want and have to build MR that you propably don't need or delays your core item by a lot > wave manipulation > In short you have to make yourself as useless as Tahm after laning phase, what a great champion! Should totally be preserved! > what? going even in lane means you won the lane goign even 20 cs behind means you won the lane... > This is pre-rework Nunu levels of stupid > nunu wasn't even strong > GP abusive in mid? eh? ok man > yeah hardly any mid laner can kill gp on his own beg for ganks or see the gp 1 shot your team im pretty sure you can't deny that with your 70% win rate as im safe to assume that you actually know how safe he is in lane > Yeah that is how a lane bully works what a shocker. the champs I listed somehow still fuck him over almost like > and somehow tahm being a lane bully is SOMEHOW any different > Who would have thought. If you sit there like a duck waiting to be 1 shot he will eventually 1 shot you. and somehow meleeing tahm and ignoring wave manipulation is no counter play to an immobile tank with a 15s kill timer
> wave manipulation hard concept He is in charge of the wave since he is the aggressor? hello? Your tip here is banking on TK fucking up his own wave management > if somehow the renekton player is trash and lets you live through the lane phase you can start winning but as i said depending on the player to fuck up is different from depending on the counter play to fuck up I told you 2 times by now what is strong against Rene, I wont repeat myself again, maybe don't pick the guy that can neither cc buffer his combo or force a longer trade against him, might be a start who knows. > first 4 levels > wave manipulation > uber hard concept This doesn't even have anything to do with wave manipulation do you just like the word or what? > Do you want to be able to lane successfully and get out of the lane safely or tunnel on a build path? > your choice Pre-rework Nunu levels of stupid like I said, at this point all the champion does is to make the enemy as useless as himself, great. > darius surprisingly does really well into kench > keep the trades short and you reach a point where you can kill him before he can kill you > ie COUNTER PLAY oh my god super hard concept Darius is decent into TK in a sense that he can cheese TK in early levels, after TK has 1 tank item Darius has to sit back again and "wave manipulation" AKA miss half the cs > wave manipulation That your favorite word? Mine is Rubble Scrababble > what? going even in lane means you won the lane > goign even 20 cs behind means you won the lane... Winning lane =/= Surviving lane If you wanted to have an impact on the game then you can forget that, oh bot lost? well you made yourself useless since you had Tahm as an enemy so you automatically lost aswell, gg wp haha better top wins > yeah hardly any mid laner can kill gp on his own > beg for ganks or see the gp 1 shot your team > im pretty sure you can't deny that with your 70% win rate as im safe to assume that you actually know how safe he is in lane Jesus christ pls go play GP mid before telling me he is abusive in lane The mid lane GP terror lmao, post this on the GP mains subreddit so they can have a laugh, we're in pretty dire times for GP as a champ they could use the laugh. > and somehow tahm being a lane bully is SOMEHOW any different Yeah you just don't play against Tahm and if you do you pick safe ranged matchups there isn't any other explanation off the top of my head on why you can't see a difference. > and somehow meleeing tahm and ignoring wave manipulation is no counter play to an immobile tank with a 15s kill timer Rubble Scrababble
: > [{quoted}](name=nelogis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=naHsArw8,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2019-06-11T11:47:18.293+0000) > > You can't get away and you can't fight him in the 10-15 seconds, care to explain how it is any different? > > Was an easy question, don't know why you are confused > > I'm playing GP Mid but good job on the detective work sherlock. GP top is cancer even for the guy playing GP. > > Illaoi is a straight up joke > Rene has trouble against anything with CC-Buffer or stuff that can force extended trades and excel at those. A lot of champs fall into that category. > Stuff like Daius / Jax / Fiora / Shen / Poppy jada jada blah blah you get the idea > > Also nice that you recently picked up Tahm Top, good champ right? > Of course it would be hard to understand what the problem with Top Tahm is if you are the one playing Top Tahm. > ;) oh no im perfectly aware of why tahm is strong and im perfectly aware why people find him hard to deal with but i myself don't find issues fighting tahm it matters a lot because if you have any form of negating his slow in that time or any form of cleanse he can't do anything to you gp can deny the devour damage you can cleanse the q slow and he won't be able to catch back up phase rush completely stops him from being able to reliably kill you conq on some champions is so strong that tahm can't kill them through it and if by any chance those champions buy mr it even becomes more stupid to deal with now does everyone understand that you have to play around tks strengths to beat him and not just smash their head against him and hope to win? definitely not and thats why tk has this success because people are idiots and have no concept of actually playing with intention and somehow you playing him mid invalidates how abusive of a champion he is? again you are playing gp and you don't have to deal with half the bullshit that is top lane and as you are not playing top lane you are completely clueless on the state of the lane renekton dictates the lane he decides when to trade and if you are in 1 shot range there is barely anything you can do to stop it
> it matters a lot because if you have any form of negating his slow in that time or any form of cleanse he can't do anything to you He is going to do the same shit the next time you are trying to cs? Then what? Run away for the entire laning phase? Not even Renekton is that oppressive and that really says something. > gp can deny the devour damage No he can't, only looks like he denies the damage because he heals it at the same time. Same with QSS, you can get away from the cc but the damage will still be dealt. > you can cleanse the q slow and he won't be able to catch back up You just traded a 20 second cooldown and an 80 mana ability that will run you oom faster than a Brand starting with cull and spamming abilities off cooldown for a 6 second ability and 50 mana FeelsGoodMan > phase rush completely stops him from being able to reliably kill you Yes and how many champs actually want PR outside of not dying to Tahm? Also what keeps Tahm away from just getting PR himself, or even better, how are you going to hit him 3 times (if you are a melee) before he will devourer / stun you and win the trade no matter what? Of course Swain with Phase Rush will be able to escape or Ryze with Phase Rush > conq on some champions is so strong that tahm can't kill them through it and if by any chance those champions buy mr it even becomes more stupid to deal with Tell me one > now does everyone understand that you have to play around tks strengths to beat him and not just smash their head against him and hope to win? definitely not and thats why tk has this success because people are idiots and have no concept of actually playing with intention Yeah dude you just have to never get close to him AKA lose about 60% of all cs, you have to get a Keystone you propably don't want and have to build MR that you propably don't need or delays your core item by a lot In short you have to make yourself as useless as Tahm after laning phase, what a great champion! Should totally be preserved! This is pre-rework Nunu levels of stupid "Should have instantly rushed QSS as Sona when facing Malzahar LUL" Why did we remove Malz everyone just had to rush QSS looks like everyone was just an idiot. > and somehow you playing him mid invalidates how abusive of a champion he is? > again you are playing gp and you don't have to deal with half the bullshit that is top lane and as you are not playing top lane you are completely clueless on the state of the lane GP abusive in mid? eh? ok man I said I don't play GP Top I never said that I don't play Top, I haven't played on this account for ages. GP is the only guy I play Mid, the entire rest of my roster is Top lane which consists of Trundle / Darius / WW / Urgot / Mundo / Olaf / Yorick / Nasus and then the occasional whatever pick if I'm feeling bored. > renekton dictates the lane > he decides when to trade > and if you are in 1 shot range there is barely anything you can do to stop it Yeah that is how a lane bully works what a shocker. the champs I listed somehow still fuck him over almost like > Rene has trouble against anything with CC-Buffer or stuff that can force extended trades and excel at those. A lot of champs fall into that category. > Stuff like Daius / Jax / Fiora / Shen / Poppy jada jada blah blah you get the idea Who would have thought. If you sit there like a duck waiting to be 1 shot he will eventually 1 shot you.
: > Doesn't matter if it takes 10-15 seconds oh it matters a lot > Do you even play top? ????? > Renekton and Illaoi have clear counters You never played against people that know how to lane with those champions considering you are a gp OTP you don't even have to deal with half the bullshit that is in top lane because your champion is just as abusive
> oh it matters a lot You can't get away and you can't fight him in the 10-15 seconds, care to explain how it is any different? > ????? Was an easy question, don't know why you are confused > You never played against people that know how to lane with those champions > considering you are a gp OTP you don't even have to deal with half the bullshit that is in top lane because your champion is just as abusive I'm playing GP Mid but good job on the detective work sherlock. GP top is cancer even for the guy playing GP. Illaoi is a straight up joke Rene has trouble against anything with CC-Buffer or stuff that can force extended trades and excel at those. A lot of champs fall into that category. Stuff like Daius / Jax / Fiora / Shen / Poppy jada jada blah blah you get the idea Also nice that you recently picked up Tahm Top, good champ right? Of course it would be hard to understand what the problem with Top Tahm is if you are the one playing Top Tahm. ;)
: haimer wasn't touched to remove him from bot his ult was nerfed to reduce his dive potential because most haimers that weren't stupid would ult q and if they land the stun you would get 1 shot dove by a supposed squishy champion without counter play because even if you flash the stun the turrets far out damage any champion malza bot was toxic to play against because unlike tahm that takes 10-15s to kill you malza had 1 button to play with that resulted in kills any time he wished it renekton illaoi and riven haimer and gnar don't allow you to play top lane as well when is the last time you had the amazing experience to play against haimer?
> haimer wasn't touched to remove him from bot > his ult was nerfed to reduce his dive potential > because most haimers that weren't stupid would ult q and if they land the stun you would get 1 shot dove by a supposed squishy champion without counter play > because even if you flash the stun the turrets far out damage any champio Heimer... dive potential? You sure we are talking about the same champ? The reason he was removed from bot is because of his stun. He is balanced around the fact that he can't reliable stun people, but if there is a support to set it up he can instagib anything remotely squishy. And guess what it was, cancer to play against but it isn't in top so it got removed instantly. > malza bot was toxic to play against > because unlike tahm that takes 10-15s to kill you > malza had 1 button to play with that resulted in kills any time he wished it Doesn't matter if it takes 10-15 seconds (it doesn't take that long) you can't do anything while he sticks to you like a fly to a piece of shit, so it's like Malzahar ulting you for 10-15 seconds. Do you even play top? > renekton illaoi and riven > haimer and gnar don't allow you to play top lane as well > when is the last time you had the amazing experience to play against haimer? Renekton and Illaoi have clear counters and windows of power you can abuse (Illaoi in general is a joke) I never said that Heimer, Riven and Gnar were fine in top lane, if anything this further proves my point in that Top lane has the most toxic champs in it. Tahm shits on your early game aggession because of his insane shield, he shits on your poke because of his insane regen, Tahm shits on everything apart from 3 champs, maybe 4.
Rioter Comments
: Can we make an OPT to join voice chat in League in ranked please?
This game badly needs ways to better communicate with your team with each champion needing more team coordination than the previous one. Yuumi being a prime example.
: Why every single time when I have ryze in my team he ends up 0:9 or something like that?
> How i'm suppose to carry that game? My skill in s4 when i still played this game used to be like low plat. A low plat player can easily carry a silver game
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nelogis

Level 65 (EUW)
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