Riot Jag (NA)
: Teemo changes temporarily on PBE for early feedback, part 2
With all due respect, after our previous feedback, i don't think that teemo's kit has even remotely been changed to accommodate the requests of teemo mains. I for once am confused on the reason for this rework? Do the devs think teemo is in bad spot? Or is he just intolerable in lower elos as i recall you guys mentioning, yet i strongly disagree with it. Overall, teemo is in a bad spot because whilst his winrate is stable, that is because of his low playrate, combined with the fact that teemo mains have mained him for years and years and are very dedicated to him unlike other mains. What changes to make: Don't lower his damage please. Right now, no DPS champion is bad in comparison to DPS/Burst assassins that are everywhere. Just increase his survivability so target his W. If you wanted to take away power because of giving him increased utility, then target his cooldowns. So maybe make his W a more effective escape/chasing tool but with even higher CD? Right now the W has an absurdly long cooldown for what it gives. Please forget about giving him stealth whilst moving. What good would it do , to give a DPS aa reliant squishy champion stealth that can't kill the enemy before they kill him? With twitch at least he scales like a monster and usually has a support to help it to scale.
Jamaree (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=sobi999,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b03trL67,comment-id=00050000000100000000,timestamp=2019-03-28T12:05:48.812+0000) > > It's easier than being a pharmacist and a solicitor so trust me, i can imagine. > > The point however has still passed over your head. Riot doesn't intend to balance the game because it goes against their policies for making profit. But that is not the focal point, the issue is that riot believes in forcing a specific meta than just let meta be forged by the community. See how they gradually buffed vayne to this state and it has been 50 days since then. I wonder how long it takes to form a link between her big ticket skin and the buffs? > > As of right now, you are completely and utterly acting in ignorance to the facts. Its a clear example of a riot lackey. if the game is losing its player base as of right now, your damn biased opinion will not be of any help. So by your statements, what Riot needs to do to not enforce a meta is to not shift things at all and let the champions who are at the top, stay at the top then correct?
NO! The point is that there is a link between skins and other money making schemes with the balance of the game. Riot intentionally overbuffs champs to create meta. If they let the community to form meta then they can balance the overpowered champs but the fact that they want there to be a meta at all times, negates this. So balance is never a desired option, but perfect balance in itself is a different concept, i am only talking about the intention. Riot wants to force meta so as not to make the game stale. But that reason alone could be jusitifiable for making constant changes but when they intentionally and clearly over power a champ for other reasons i.e. skins, pro's and shorter cafe games for asian; that's when things start to become bitter and as can be seen from the balance team's recent decisions.
Jamaree (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=sobi999,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b03trL67,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2019-03-28T09:07:59.394+0000) > > If you happened to read my comment thoroughly, this is what i advised. "Riot/balance does not desire balance" because of the short gaped patches. But, the both are not mutually exclusive i.e. riot can desire balance and still do constant patches but the fact that they force meta by admitting to the fact that they prefer a small roster of champs be meta for a period of time than all champs be equal, throws the idea of balance out of the window. How can they buff or nerf without "enforcing the meta"? Literally anything they do would enforce the meta because people play what is best period, there is LITERALLY nothing that can be done by Riot that wouldn't "enforce a meta." > Besides, i never really touched upon the concept of "perfectly balanced" game. That might not be achievable for a game this complicated but what is important here is not the degree of balance required but the intention. There is no such intention from riot's part because they are business company first and foremost. > > I for once don't know why this topic is so difficult to understand. I don't know why people think just balancing a game is easy either, but here we are.
It's easier than being a pharmacist and a solicitor so trust me, i can imagine. The point however has still passed over your head. Riot doesn't intend to balance the game because it goes against their policies for making profit. But that is not the focal point, the issue is that riot believes in forcing a specific meta than just let meta be forged by the community. See how they gradually buffed vayne to this state and it has been 50 days since then. I wonder how long it takes to form a link between her big ticket skin and the buffs? As of right now, you are completely and utterly acting in ignorance to the facts. Its a clear example of a riot lackey. if the game is losing its player base as of right now, your damn biased opinion will not be of any help.
Jamaree (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=sobi999,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b03trL67,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-03-27T20:20:20.986+0000) > > I can't believe people are denying your logic. It is astoundingly obvious that the balance team does not desire balance, especially seeing as their changes for these few years have been appalling. It is also clear as a day that riot is changing meta through short gapped patches to spice things up, to which they even admitted that they prefer to force meta on the community than to allow a meta to be forged by the community. This already contradicts with the notion of 'balancing' as you can't consistently change the game and expect it to be balanced. > > The recent changes to champs and making them absolutely broken for a few patches and then gradually bringing them down. It is obvious that riot wants to promote youtube streamers to make a spicy video on a broken champ after every patch. The skin sales is also more visibly showing clear patterns of favours to champs with recent prestige skins and also to popularly played champs. This including the fact that most balance decisions are favoured towards flashy pro-plays. If someone can disagree with every one of these points then obviously good luck to you and i hope you get a great matchmaking in ranked games. > > To those disagreeing, please take the blindfold off your eyes and for the sake of love, realize that riot is a business company first and foremost and then a gaming company. If riot's main purpose was to run league, even at the cost of making a loss , then you guys would stand to have a point. However, as we all know that this is impossible to do for any gaming company whose purpose is to make profit. Name me a single constantly being updated game that has ever been perfectly balanced, I will wait
If you happened to read my comment thoroughly, this is what i advised. "Riot/balance does not desire balance" because of the short gaped patches. But, the both are not mutually exclusive i.e. riot can desire balance and still do constant patches but the fact that they force meta by admitting to the fact that they prefer a small roster of champs be meta for a period of time than all champs be equal, throws the idea of balance out of the window. Besides, i never really touched upon the concept of "perfectly balanced" game. That might not be achievable for a game this complicated but what is important here is not the degree of balance required but the intention. There is no such intention from riot's part because they are business company first and foremost. I for once don't know why this topic is so difficult to understand.
: It does not take 9 years to balance a single game with a single map.
I can't believe people are denying your logic. It is astoundingly obvious that the balance team does not desire balance, especially seeing as their changes for these few years have been appalling. It is also clear as a day that riot is changing meta through short gapped patches to spice things up, to which they even admitted that they prefer to force meta on the community than to allow a meta to be forged by the community. This already contradicts with the notion of 'balancing' as you can't consistently change the game and expect it to be balanced. The recent changes to champs and making them absolutely broken for a few patches and then gradually bringing them down. It is obvious that riot wants to promote youtube streamers to make a spicy video on a broken champ after every patch. The skin sales is also more visibly showing clear patterns of favours to champs with recent prestige skins and also to popularly played champs. This including the fact that most balance decisions are favoured towards flashy pro-plays. If someone can disagree with every one of these points then obviously good luck to you and i hope you get a great matchmaking in ranked games. To those disagreeing, please take the blindfold off your eyes and for the sake of love, realize that riot is a business company first and foremost and then a gaming company. If riot's main purpose was to run league, even at the cost of making a loss , then you guys would stand to have a point. However, as we all know that this is impossible to do for any gaming company whose purpose is to make profit.
: Is matchmaking horrible because the playerbase has dropped? Or because Riot litterally hates us.
The playerbase kept screaming about the damage and then mobility creep but riot just shrugged them off and did the literal opposite. All for the sake of flashy pro play. People kept saying that riot is losing its playerbase and they laughed and said " people are just leaving because they are burned out and will come back". Now we have come to the point where the side-effects are visible and it is too late for riot to revert. The outcome will be that league will be left with 2 servers. One for korea and one exclusively for pro's
: There was a huge debate about this which many rioters chipped in on, I think the problem lies in spear of shojin being just too good on her, a nerf to that item might possibly tone her power down
She's been busted even before that item came into existence. On another note, nerfing an item for one single champ is not productive at all and causes many other champs to suffer. Unless, rioters thought about this then that is all fine but personally after nerfing shojin, riven will see a lower playrate/winrate but that does not necessarily indicate she is still balanced. The common riot theory is to stir meta up every now and then, but riven has been in a good state in every meta. Never ever heard of that champ doing bad.
Bârd (NA)
: You're a duelist if you're good at fighting people 1v1. That's it. Being up in someone's face isn't a part of the definition. You're trying to define a bruiser. Vayne is a good duelist because she has high single target damage and can keep a single target from dealing damage to her. It's that simple.
FIora is the standard duelist of league just liker her lore represents. Jax is considered to be the 2nd most common duelist. Both lack AOE, cc and prevail in single target damage. Vayne meets the criteria except unlike jax and fiora that have trouble sticking to targets, vayne as a squishier duelist wants to keep her distance and deal damage. The issue here is that duelists are usually stat checks which vayne currently is, but she now also has the ability to do damage whilst negating damage i.e. invisibility and E and constant Q's. For a long time she was balanced or weak because even though she scaled hard, she was easy to shut down if focused. THis is coming from a predominant support who hated vayne adc's. So in essence where fiora is weak to burst because she has insane sustain, vayne who sits closer to fiora than jax (who is somewhat tanky due to his R), is able to avoid damage or being focused on and still do insane single target damage. Don't get me wrong, she is still able to be focused but harder than before.
nm1010 (NA)
: I think we have all been there https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqKfBfwHsnI
macspam (NA)
: As someone who just got fucked by a syndra, im gonna say hell no. I dont play a lot of syndra but i do play orianna who is somewhat similar. Syndra is like the more damage focused version of orianna (who had more supportive qualities). Her q is easy to hit, W is easy to hit, and e is relatively easy to hit for a hard cc. Plus the point and click nuke? Nah.
None of her abilities are easy to hit. Unless , you confused syndra with Zed.
: One light way to help her out would be reducing her mana costs, especially late game. She's supposed to spam qs to get off a good combo, but shes reliant on blue (or else u need Seraphs and Manaflow Band) I don't think she's super far from being great, and no one wants her to be over buffed. Other idea : make her W go faster when she grabs a ball instead of anything
That's true, she really has mana issues throughout the game. That could be a way forward , over buffing her means that she will just R to 100-0%. I mean, they could alternatively reduce her ult damage and add that to her other abilities. But she is so fun to play with because of her combos.
: im a D4 syndra main, and the reason she isn't good right now isnt because of her passive. its because shes an immobile mage and people dont know how to use her stun, which is her only form of cc. Her W only slows and E has a massive cooldown. There is a secret to her E but I will let you figure it out
Please, take your sarcasm somewhere else. Also, diamond is considered a dog elo by many people. This isn't even about elo's anymore, look at her statistics which clearly should show you that mains or not, she is struggling. Immobile mages are suffering overall, syndra is not new to this but declaring that the playerbase has no idea how to use her E and claiming this to be the reason for her low winrate is just to me, sarcasm.... I advised that if her passive came into play before, it would help her, which in itself is a fact. She will get some of her lvl 18 powerspike earlier on, there is no denying that this is a buff to her. Although, she will still be trash tier but at least it now makes sense to change her passive when she is in this state.
Pika Fox (NA)
: Thats not how causation works. If you try and observe and cherrypick data, yeah, you find a "pattern". You can cherrypick any data you want to come to any conclusion you want. Theyve nerfed or done no power changes around skin releases far more often than they have buffed, so even if you want to claim there is a pattern, there is none.
Well, balancing around pro play is not for that extra cash now is it? I don't think you can deny that. If you are so naive to think that riot as a business is not trying to make cash, then your ignorance will prevent you from seeing even facts let alone correlations.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ragnaveil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AkRE3rjf,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-15T22:11:36.608+0000) > > I get your frustration, but at the same time you gotta consider most good ADs are gonna have high pickrates no matter what. Their pool is limited. If they had double the champ pool for adcs currently, then it would make a ton more sense to nerf her. the bot lane pool is limited because riot keeps it that way. we had champion diversity in bot lane for 3 weeks before they hard reset everything. the problem is some of their largest cash cows are adc {{champion:202}} got a ton of skins already since his release. didnt he get two or three skins over the course of the past year? {{champion:67}} {{champion:21}} {{champion:81}} {{champion:222}} {{champion:236}} regularly get skins and usually high quality. {{champion:145}} was barely released and already was the first to get a prestige skin. vayne was the first to get a mythic skin, mf was the second marksman to get an ultimate skin before they even gave one to a top lane champion. just from the frequency of which some of those champions get skins, and how often theyre buffed before a skin release, you can see that this is the primary reason theyre keeping the carry position on bot marksmen exclusive. at some point you just cant deny anymore that there is a method to all this, and its negatively impacting the games balance.
Obviously, riot tries to hide this pattern by nerfing champs before their skins but hardly is ever true before a prestige or ultimate skin. At the end of the day, riot is doing is a business, but i hope they don't neglect their customers for that extra cash. Loyalty isn't earned by playing mind gaming.
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AkRE3rjf,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-15T21:33:34.430+0000) > > with a pretty high pick rate i might add. She's always had a high pick rate. That's what being a popular champion is. Look at Lee Sin, even when he's trash his pick rates insane.
Lee sin hasn't been trash since season 2. Riot admitted that they have favoritism for lee sin, not some time back ago. Lee is either meta or just good. More or less how riven works.
: I get your frustration, but at the same time you gotta consider most good ADs are gonna have high pickrates no matter what. Their pool is limited. If they had double the champ pool for adcs currently, then it would make a ton more sense to nerf her. Something just needs to happen to Phantom Hit on Rageblade, its much too obvious the effect makes champs with very auto specific passives or effects ignore the trade off. Kai Sa Passive, Vayne W, Yi E, (certain times) Jax R, Kog W (especially back then with his 5.0 AS), Neeko W, Shyv Q W and E (mark), Varus W, and (its been a while since he's built it) Xin passive.
I don't think the pool rate matters as much. If you look at other laners, the playrate is more or less spread out evenly for top tier champs. The same is also true for bot lane albeit the playrate is usually twice as much as other laners. So in essence, adc playrate shouldn't really be compared with other laners but if they have an absurd playrate amongst their own pool then you know something is wrong. Now consider that this playrate has a decent win rate or better? What does it show ? It shows that even at such a high playrate, the adc has a good winrate which is hardly ever true for other laners, unless they are actually overpowered. So if an adc has a high playrate and winrate, then the adc pool matters not, because playrate = the same games played (regardless of lane). It is easier to discern this for adc's because their playrate stands out much more compared to others.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=sobi999,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qwzgZiV5,comment-id=001b0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-28T19:54:32.996+0000) > > I mean certainly, if i was challenger it'll be harder for me to leave the game; after i sweat so much time into the game. I mean, i am training to become a solicitor and played league when i got time to have fun.... > > Moving onto your post. So in summary, your point is that every person playing must play to become a challenger or begone? Last time i checked, I recall riot changed to rune reforge to make it easier for beginners? Oh wait, wasn't that just to rip of veteran players who had bought multiple runes and rune pages with RP? You effectively reduce the strategy in the game and riot's lackee says that riot is catering to its higher elo players. Not really that they should BEGONE THOT but in essence, the core of League should be to improve, get better, etc. And yeah, they did make it easier for newer players....to climb and get better because now a barrier that was purely monetary/time investment with no skill involved (and yes, the old rune system was solved and had zero skill to it) is gone. Older players aren't affected by this change at all in terms of skill besides maybe having to learn new build pages which were pretty quickly solved. Then again, I'm more so of the opinion that ALL pregame systems should be removed period and remove any sort of outside influence but that's a whole different argument. > That's why the balance team is in such a mess, they don't even know their priorities at this point on time or they are just listening to the above orders i.e. make pro play as flashy as possible. > > Then again, making the game more like FPS will never make it more strategic, of course more mechanically challenging. For the latter, i assure you there are many better games.. *Cough* .. Fortnite. Yeah, no, the problem with the balance team isn't that they're making proplay "as flashy as possible". The problem is that Riot's balance team wants to make the cake, eat it and also boast about how good the cake is. They want a vibrant pro scene, a high-fun casual scene and high-tier challenger in between. You literally cannot have this and we see this coming into play now: The things high tier play (Pro, challenger, etc) need are vastly different. To bring up that Zed example, Zed needed buffs in higher tier play so much so that LL Stylish, a high skilled Zed OTP, listed what he needs. Boards told him he was wrong and Zed is fine. I'm not advocating that balance is fine right now, I'm advocating that Riot NEEDS to pick a side and deal with it because this 50/50 game isn't helping anyone. > I also want to tell you to come out of your delusion of riot catering to higher elos intentionally. Its all for the pro sake, i can't believe you're a forum mod and you still haven't come to terms with this simple fact. As for zed, you missed the point in its entirety. Why should i get punished for a Fed Zed, who my team mate fed and who not only kills me in a blink but also blinks? The game is reducing its roster to mobile champs and those that aren't mobile, like karthus, are clearly overpowered. So now you guys force us to play meta, which i tell you is different to there just being meta, because meta will always be there. Zed never didn't work in higher elo because of coordinated play. So a lux in challenger will respect his burst and play safe until team fights. Lower elo's don't do that, but you get punished for someone else's mistake even harder because you get no time to retaliate. > > Try playing tanks in lower elo and tell me if you'll climb. Would be lovely to be an alistar and dive without my team backing me up. That's why i always played brand because then i rely more on my own skills. i just never had the 8 hours free time everyday that challenger streamers have. That's your last flaw, riot is catering for the fickle MINORITY, be it pro play or higher elo. GL. There's no delusion that Riot is catering to higher elos _because they aren't_. I think your mistake is that you're coming from the angle that I think that Riot is catering to them, which isn't true. I'm saying Riot _should_ cater to them for the health and longevity of the game rather than these balance patches aimed with 10%-ish pro changes/high tier changes followed by 90% low ELO/Iron-to-Plat changes. The mentality that Riot only caters to the LCS just isn't true. You're also pretty incorrect in assuming that only mobile champions are meta when some of the strongest picks for the last few months like Urgot and Aatrox have been slow, lumbering characters with maybe a pitiful dash that people will hold up and say "makes them mobile" as if Aatrox's baby limp puts him on-par with lee Sin. And yes, you can play tanks in low ELO...if you're good. Which is what people mistake. They see tanks, a class reliant on teambased play, as being bad because of the game and not because coordination in those ranks isn't good. And if you're good enough, you WILL climb with anyone. There are people who hit challenge with Garen, an assumed braindead champion, because that's just how good they were with Garen. Not buffs, not nerfs, just raw player skill. And no, pro play/higher ELO isn't fickle. They want a balanced game, for sure, but they don't straight-up quit league unless you have a case like Hashinshin who had his class ignored for years because bruisers are historically not a problem in lower ELO. You see the same thing here: Lower tier players (like you and me) arguing about the state of the game while some of them threaten to leave because the game doesn't go their way. They don't have attachment to League and they don't care about it. Again, for the long term health of the game, you should cater to the highest tier of play. It's why CS:GO is still around. It's why DOTA is still around. It's why Warcraft 3 is still played in China. It's why Smash Melee somehow still exists. Pros and good players keep these games alive, not casuals. If Riot wants league to last, they need to get over this mentality of 50/50 "make everyone happy" balancing because right now, it's not making anyone happy: Not you, not me and certainly not higher tier players.
Let me make this short. I never said that riot should cater for the 80% of lower elo population and nor did i say that riot should stop catering for higher elo's. All i am trying to say is that because of pro-play the fun and casual league shouldn't be hindered. I assure you that you'll be shocked, if you found out how many people actually played league for fun and not just to climb. As for climbing, literally all higher tier players have moaned about high burst damage but what you don't get is that they have to bow to the meta and become meta sheep to climb. Some maybe climb as one trick ponies but my question comes back to the point, unless you don't have 8 hours or so to spend on league each day, should you be begone? At this point and time, i think a different patch system for pro's should be introduced. For the past 2-3 years i have taken several breaks and came back to league but somehow now it's just dying now for me. With each new champ being broken and if not broken then made broken by continuous buffs and this trend following every release of a champ is getting tiresome. The next champ will have a nocturne ult but global coupled with a sylais ult. Why is riot even introducing new champs at this point and time? It's like they just want to increase their mess that they left behind. Lastly, why don't you compare urgot and aatrox with teemo, lux or annie etc. You don't have to keep pyke as the baseline for comparison in which case the examples you gave are pretty immobile in comparison.
: > [{quoted}](name=sobi999,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qwzgZiV5,comment-id=001b00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-28T14:58:28.367+0000) > > Dying in 0.2 seconds can never be a skill especially in a strategic game. In a FPS, i can imagine a head shot is to be expected but dying there first, is not punishable for the rest of 20 minutes of the game or more. As for building tank items, then as a brand main, i always build MR/armor with my liandries. But since i am not in challenger, you'll see a fed zed/yasuo/leblanc and etc in every game (haven't played since assassin meta). You're basically telling me that i should never be close enough to them for them to kill me or to sit on defensive items only? > > So to summarise your post = League of pro's. > > Surely riot employees are meant to have same/similar opinions, seems like you guys are happy with earning money from the Pro play's. Fine by me, I have long left. I mean yeah. There should be a desire to get better and not change the game around players who don't really understand what they're doing. Hell, Zed needed buffs for higher tier play (not just pros but for around Diamond+) because of how bad he was in those situations. Thankfully he did get those buffs and is now doing better. This also assumes tanky builds are dead despite frequently seeing tanky builds like Aftershock Lissandra/Ryze or just general tank characters in high tier and pro play. While I'm not a Riot employee, this also illustrates another problem: Lower tier players leave the moment the game doesn't cater to them. Higher tier players often stick around. Why should Riot balance around a fickle majority who will leave the moment they don't get their way vs. the good minority who will stick with the game? And again, this isn't just pro-centric balance. This is high-tier solo queue as well. For the health of the game in the long term, Riot should absolutely start balancing around the top of solo queue and more. Problem is they won't and it'll dip back into catering to lower-tier players.
I mean certainly, if i was challenger it'll be harder for me to leave the game; after i sweat so much time into the game. I mean, i am training to become a solicitor and played league when i got time to have fun.... Moving onto your post. So in summary, your point is that every person playing must play to become a challenger or begone? Last time i checked, I recall riot changed to rune reforge to make it easier for beginners? Oh wait, wasn't that just to rip of veteran players who had bought multiple runes and rune pages with RP? You effectively reduce the strategy in the game and riot's lackee says that riot is catering to its higher elo players. That's why the balance team is in such a mess, they don't even know their priorities at this point on time or they are just listening to the above orders i.e. make pro play as flashy as possible. Then again, making the game more like FPS will never make it more strategic, of course more mechanically challenging. For the latter, i assure you there are many better games.. *Cough* .. Fortnite. I also want to tell you to come out of your delusion of riot catering to higher elos intentionally. Its all for the pro sake, i can't believe you're a forum mod and you still haven't come to terms with this simple fact. As for zed, you missed the point in its entirety. Why should i get punished for a Fed Zed, who my team mate fed and who not only kills me in a blink but also blinks? The game is reducing its roster to mobile champs and those that aren't mobile, like karthus, are clearly overpowered. So now you guys force us to play meta, which i tell you is different to there just being meta, because meta will always be there. Zed never didn't work in higher elo because of coordinated play. So a lux in challenger will respect his burst and play safe until team fights. Lower elo's don't do that, but you get punished for someone else's mistake even harder because you get no time to retaliate. Try playing tanks in lower elo and tell me if you'll climb. Would be lovely to be an alistar and dive without my team backing me up. That's why i always played brand because then i rely more on my own skills. i just never had the 8 hours free time everyday that challenger streamers have. That's your last flaw, riot is catering for the fickle MINORITY, be it pro play or higher elo. GL.
: > [{quoted}](name=sobi999,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qwzgZiV5,comment-id=001b000100000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T18:54:16.858+0000) > > What skill? Getting one-shot was a skill? Not having 0.2seconds reaction is a skill? > > I don't want noodle fights as well but there is a damn big difference between the former and the latter. Just let me play a game where i am not punished for the whole game by dying first. Actually yes, those are skills. Quick reaction time, knowing what to do and executing a plan ahead of time as well as proper punishing and safe play. You see this divide in pro play right now: For a meta which is often complained about as "too much damage" and "tanks are meainingless", pro teams will run 3-4 tanky characters or characters built tanky such as Aftershock Lissandra or Ryze. [For a quick example I looked up the most recent pro game I could find on reddit from the LPL](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/avcklk/jd_gaming_vs_victory_five_lpl_2019_spring_week_6/?st=jsnksoba&sh=e828684d). Each team in that Bo3 series is running multiple tanky characters or characters with an emphasis on building tanky after one major damage item, like Camille or J4. DPS still exists but it's certanly not the "MEGA ONESHOT 5843827 DAMAGE ULT" meta people complain about here...but they're not wrong. This is the purest example of how pro and pub discrepancy has become so wide: Players are saying tanks are dead, too much damage, etc. Pros are saying we're moving too much into a tank meta and tanks are too powerful for what they offer. etc etc. Tanks aren't dead and damage isn't too high. Problem is you only feel this if your playing at a professional level.
Dying in 0.2 seconds can never be a skill especially in a strategic game. In a FPS, i can imagine a head shot is to be expected but dying there first, is not punishable for the rest of 20 minutes of the game or more. As for building tank items, then as a brand main, i always build MR/armor with my liandries. But since i am not in challenger, you'll see a fed zed/yasuo/leblanc and etc in every game (haven't played since assassin meta). You're basically telling me that i should never be close enough to them for them to kill me or to sit on defensive items only? So to summarise your post = League of pro's. Surely riot employees are meant to have same/similar opinions, seems like you guys are happy with earning money from the Pro play's. Fine by me, I have long left.
: > [{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qwzgZiV5,comment-id=001b0001,timestamp=2019-02-27T01:33:05.556+0000) > > There are measurable changes people dislike. You can blame it on nostalgia all you want. I've been playing Elsword, Starcraft and other games since release and don't feel the same no. > > New talents, I don't like them and their effect is measurable. > > Scaling, too high and measurable. > > Rune changes, don't like it and measurable. > > Balance changes, releases and reworks. We can see directly their effects on the game. > > If I go back to Halo 2, Halo 2 is still Halo 2. The problems I don't like in 5 don't effect it. No matter my hundreds of hours in it. > > I don't buy it in the slightest. There are also measureable changes people liked. The problem is that with Halo 2 being Halo 2, Halo 2 and Halo 5 are completely separate games. It's not comparable to League. It's also why Halo 2 has slowly faded into obscurity vs. a few hundred players still playing nostaglia. Comparatively, with league as well as other games, these are evolving games that while the game may change, the core of it rarely does. League is different from 2010 to 2019 but it still has a core aspect to it and many features that weren't touched. More importantly, this still doesn't account for player skill. You're much more likely to find subpar or nostaglic players in a Halo 2 lobby because the overall skill ceiling of the game isn't "there" anymore. Tournaments are small and/or nonexistant compared to League's ranked ladder. It's the same thing that happens in the FGC where you end up with a handful of godlike players are a massive skillgap between everyone else. For a ready example: Melee is a handful of players since the dawn of time. They're ALL you see. About 6-10 players at the top of every tournament because of how far they are ahead of everyone else. Nobody plays melee casually anymore, as they have newer games to do that with. As such you're left with the pro of pro. Regardless of if you agree or not, League is moving in the same directions: Casuals who enjoyed Season 1-2 are now gone or on their way out, as they get regularly stomped by great players and the skill discrepancy is too much. "For fun" builds don't work anymore because they get punished, meaning you're either good enough to try something off-meta or you're not and need to use meta to win. Every "fun" aspect of League still exists, but the skill discrepancy means a lot of players cannot earnestly do this. They don't see it as a problem with themselves, they see it as the game "not allowing for it anymore". It's inevitable that as skill increases, so too does the game narrow down for casuals who want to win. Going back to an earlier season won't fix this, as the skill is still there and your "for fun" builds will be just as punished there, if not more so. In the end, this is a factor of time, not some changes Riot did, and there's nothing that can be done to change it.
What skill? Getting one-shot was a skill? Not having 0.2seconds reaction is a skill? I don't want noodle fights as well but there is a damn big difference between the former and the latter. Just let me play a game where i am not punished for the whole game by dying first.
: I really miss League of Legends
I wonder what is the population of league's player base right now? I have uninstalled for 1-2 months now and tbh, i enjoy watching league much more than playing. Maybe bc i dont have anything better to do, but pro play is getting boring bc of same sejuani, tahm, jayce, zoe , alistar, braum, sivir , nocturne,galio kaisa picks. Its just so freaking predictable now. 20-30 champs are frequently picked out of the 140 in the roster. Some of these have been picked even last year.
Kurufeemo (EUW)
: I am writing again because i am very surprised that so many people sislike the changes. I tried it and i like it very much. So this is my (diamond 3 euw by the way) Teemo main opinion: 1. New E is not supposed to work as twitches Q. In comparison to it, it is bad, and that is why people complain about it, but in comparison to current teemo passive it is quite good. Invisibility after 1 second delay would be too strong. So if people insist, let the new E arm after 2 seconds as it is ion live and give invisibility in bush or while standing stil while making it camouflage when teemo moves. Even this will be very powerful in my opinion because teemo can now change his position now. 2. Making Q do less damage is ok, although i didnt like the 12 seconds cooldown, but since you can now max it instead of toxic shot it is acceptable. But the idea of having both toxic shot and blinding dart at lvl 1 is very useful. 3. In fact the possibility to max move quick is what i like probably the most. Having plus 52% more movespeed at level 9 is disgusting! And now Teemo does not loose any damage from toxic shot while maxing W, it is insane! 4. R damage nerfes are painful but understandable. The thing I like in mushroom changes the most is more health for shrooms. That should be super powerful later on and it should be worth nerfing damage. In all honest though I can not say exactly, because I do not have any will to climb to pBE chalkenger in order to get to a normal late game, where people actually care about objectives and vision. In my brobze II on PBE, it rarely happens. All in all, I like most of the things there and after trsting it I can say that in the laning phase Teemo has gotten only better, and despite the danage nerfes Teemo all ins and take all ins not worse then on live for sure. Although when i was testing builds i found attack speed reliant builds much stronger on teemo rather then full ap builds, and i am afraid that this new reliance on on hit builds because if danage nefs and the new passive will be not so effective in high elo to perform, because Teemos kit even with his new E still lacks some sort of either sustain, engage or disengage which helps other auto attackers to be viable. Pitiful 500 range, no gapclose and extreme squishiness make it much more difficult for the on hit teemo to be good. In this case it might be a good idea to think about the E rework to be a bit more helpful and for on-hit Teemo. But all in all the rework looks great. And I will be really sad that a conservative majority of Teemo players doesn't like it, I wish they could at least try it out. Gl
In your scenario you forget to max E, which is what everyone is doing. It has a disgusting slow early game. If they remove that, the rework is fine. I don't think the camo turning to invisibility in bush or standing still is too strong. Not on teemo maybe on zed :)
: I just dont feel its to important to cry about losing true stealth.. Sweeper already made the plays you want to play with teemo 50/50 shots in the dark vs anyone that knows teemo.. any jungler that ganks you will have sweeper and wont need to play the games you describe.. they will find pbe teemo and kill him.. they will find live teemo and kill him.. point is to have shrooms/wards down and get to turret before the gank happens.. True Stealth isnt an answer to this.. and neither is camo..
You're right, oracle lens is available at lvl 1 but most junglers don't get it until their first back since they need vision to protect other buffs. But, even If they do get it they still can't target you. Invisibility is therefore more helpful against jglers that only have cc in their targeted abilities with no skill shots. Regardless, with the early game slow on the E, you really think it is an escaping tool in any way or sense early on? In case of invisibility, for skill-shots you you can juke them by running around. It saves you time until your jgler comes and sometimes you waste time of enemy jgler + top laner. This is ofcourse situational as teemo is still one of the easiest targets to gank but the point i am trying to make is that the camouflage is a not a buff but a nerf to the live passive, until you max it first. If you do that, you lose damage early on from the live teemo that has higher Q damage and maxed E early on. On the other hand, the ammunition and health buff to shrooms is not comparable to what he loses i.e. the damage, so overall this rework is a slight nerf. So not only dowe have to get used to his new E and win less games, the teemo niche is also taken away. Its just not worth it. You might be able to juke pbe players for now, but if this change hits live, teemo will suffer for having to rely on his AA range for most of his damage. I am looking at the future, you are basing your opinion on how you probably got legendary in the pbe server with your main.
: I coverd all this pretty well in my post, all i will say is if you stand in the bush and farm, the e cd lowers like 6 secs a sec. the e cd is fine.. you would know that if you played it..
So did I ( if you actually bothered to read it all). I also know his E cd is significantly lower in the brush but you have no idea how to even use it. You don't even know that camouflage is detectable or you are completely neglecting it. if they block your path to the turret you can never run towards it. If a jungler ganks you, one will block your path, the other will try to reach within your radius. After that you are not just targetable by skill shots but also by single target abilities or AA's. It's only useful outside lane for ganks and maybe to juke at lower elo's. That was not the reason of this rework. They need to remove the slow at the very least.
: So, Ive withheld my opinion til Ive played him many times on the pbe over the weekend. And I can say I believe most of the criticism you guys are receiving is from players that havent tried it or have a hard time seeing teemo change in any form. Most comments are just incorrect as far as it goes.. Passive- Ive read many post saying that the passive has no scaling.. this is wrong and easy to see if they tried the champ.. I believe this lie is why ppl think ap teemo will die.. Its very much alive and amazing with these changes. (Try Hail of Blades.. Trust) Q- Got a damage nerf but the poisonous effect working with passive makes it a net gain i believe. There is a small argument that this hurts his laning vs panth and vlad due to how ppl play the lane but that's hardly enough reason to argue its a bad change... W- I cant defend this much.. Its simple but if this skill needs to stay simple to allow the power you are placing thruout the rest of the kit im happy! E- The Big argument.. Ill start by saying i love it.. 2nd ill talk about some incorrect posts ive seen. Many are complaining its a twitch Q but worse, and it only last 3-5 secs.. this isn't the whole truth, Its 3-5 Secs of MOVEMENT TIME. if you don't move you will never unstealth. if you stealth in a bush then walk 2.5 secs worth of movement into lane then stop it works much better than current passive. Huge difference and the movespeed slow makes since. IT is odd to have a slow and a movespeed buff like that but I don't think its a bad call. I like deciding to use w to get there faster or disengage after the burst. I think its fine. LAST thing ppl have said TEEMOS TRUE STEALTH is to core to him.. Im here to argue that Teemo lost his passive for the most part vs good players the sec they added sweepers to the game... for 0 gold.. Free Counter Teemo!! almost ruins every good play you could make vs a good person.. largely due to the range.. but im not here to argue nerf sweeper. never have. I have hated it for a while but i always felt that was Teemo falling behind the times.. not that Sweeper should be changed in any way.. Teemos true stealth has been great for noob stomping over the years dont get me wrong.. i love it.. added movign in bushes was kinda worthless cause good stealth plays arent near bushs but i loved his stealth.. but i feel its outdated and time to move on. Taking Teemo true stealth is scary.. i didnt like it when i read it. but after playing it. this skill has so much use and allows Teemo to make plays on oppoents that arent making mistakes. That sounds bad but I mean. Before Teemo had to push lane plan shrooms clear wards and invis before the wave bounced. THEN the oppoent has to come out into teemo for it to work. This just doesnt happen at Higher elo. Old Teemo has to wait for an opponet to come to him 100% of the time. New Teemo can stealth then go to them. It makes all the difference when the ppl are smarter. This 100% does make teemo better high elo. one of my favorite plays over the weekend invloved being ganked by an ahri. I e'd and ran forcing her to come close to find me.. (You can juke skill shots slightly while stealthed and stop before your time is up to wait for them to give up and come close.) Turn on her, flash the charm kill her. Teemos largest challenge IMO in taking damage from mushrooms is giving him a tool to do damage without them relying on them so much.. (he still does for the passive bonus but not the point.) With new e it makes ppl get to his range or lets him get to his range before you start a fight. R- Also a big argument.. I cried when you guys nerfed it from .8-.5... It hurt.. but that was because he gained nothing anywhere else. This change imo is fine. I might not increase the charges to 5... maybe 4.. 3 is a tiny bit low. With all the damage packed into this new passive.. I can take or leave the r stacks.. What really matter is the r HP points buff.. This is huge.. anyone who says anything else is clueless.. I feel they may be a little bit to hard to kill now lol.. just a little late game.. I REALLY Hope Riot Jag gets a chance to read this.. I hope all the negativity coming from the LARGE groups of ppl that seem to not even played it. is ignored.. I REALLY hope all those that come here looking for an honest opinion of this rework read this. I'm not a solo Teemo main anymore due to the years Ive been here and needing something new time to time but I promise that I love Teemo for all the reasons I believe someone SHOULD love Teemo for. MORE SNEAKING AND MORE POISON!! The feeling of someone flashing away into the darkness and dying 2 secs late is what I eat for breakfast.. The screams from allchat as the enemy respawns the 3rd time to a shroom excite me more than i can explain.. When i thought of how to change Teemo over these years ive come up blank honestly.. and I bet most others have to.. He was just so Iconic.. But this rework brought hope to my heart.. This is going in the right direction i feel.. or atleast.. Ive never heard a better idea from any other corner of the internet over many years.. I Love this rework and Im excited to play it on live one day.. (MAY need to lower that passive damage a tiny bit tho.. Wow its strong..)
That's the thing, you have played it in PBE serve with god knows which division. That's why your elo matters since these changes are to help him at higher elo's which is why he got nerfs on his most ranged abilities i.e. R and Q but he was suppose to gain something back so that he is good in higher elos. In my below post i will argue why he hasn't got a buff at higher elo's and if his lower elo is worse than before. Let's talk about his passive. It does more damage with the same AP ratio. You can even Amp it with Q and R by 50%. What does that mean? Teemo has to combine AA, Q and R to get his maximum damage. Live teemo however will do similar damage than the current pbe teemo (you can check my posts about the calculations i did on new vs old teemo damage) but the live teemo has an humongous advantage of staying safe. There are some lanes like Darius where you must not get hooked and small Q pokes can make a huge difference at higher elos. Heck, if you ever lane against a burst mage , your Q is your only source of poke since your too squishy to go near for AA. You do understand that this significantly hinders his poking capabilities and now he has to be in his 500 AA range to deal damage that is yet again DOT. Even brand relies on burst (brand main here) to win games. Actually, brand is considered to be more of a burst mage than battle mage, like rumble is. Lets now talk about his E. I don't think you understand what camouflage is. A camouflage can be detected within a certain radius, the smaller the radius, the better for you. I will give you twitch's example to explain. Teemo has a 700 radius whilst twitch has a 500 radius so twitch wins on that. Teemo's E is not suppose to be used for running away from a fight i.e. lets say after a darius hooked you, it is impossible for you to escape with that slow on your E as now you are targetable within the 700 radius. So Riot wants you to max your E first, for it to be of any use. What does that mean? Before you were able to level your E and were able to max it by lvl 9, but now you have to max your E whilst the pbe passive (toxic shot) scales with level and currently it maxes out later than lvl 9. That mean's your early game is actually hurt because of this change because the incredible slow on his E forces you to max it first instead of your Q or W in which case the pbe teemo would be slightly buffed if not balanced. I think people underestimate how important teemo's W is when maxed so they never take it into consideration that it could help to put some points in his W. If you still think his E is amazing then please read Twitch's Q and see how much MS speed it gives him, the duration it lasts, its cooldown and the AS it gives. Do note that teemo now gets AS on his E but his passive game him more AS before and his passive had no CD whatsoever! Just look at the ridiculous CD of his E and tell me if teemo's niche is taken away from him? His R is nerfed to deal 100 less damage at max level with 10% lower Ap ratio. The new 40% ratio doesn't hurt but the base damage nerf is very impactful mid game, especially at higher elos. Teemo could at lvl 11 shroom a wave and kill the caster minions without any AA but with the nerf to his R, this spike has fkn moved to his lvl 16!!! So much for helping higher elos where games are shorter. In exchange you gain extra health which kicks in at lvl 11 and is very useful at lvl 16 where you will need 5 ranged AA's and 4 melee AA's. However, it is again less useful at higher elos where there is coordinate sweeping. Again, a change which benefits lower elos more but overall a slight buff at both elo's. Then there is the *buff* of 3/4/5 shroom stacks. HAHA, nice try rito, higher elos teemo main never sit on 3 stacks to begin with so more stacks does not mean more shrooms per minute as the CD is not lowered. I don't know why they didn't think of increasing how long his shrooms last i.e. from 5 minutes to maybe 7 minutes, as it can help alot with vision at higher elos? His early game spike is at lvl 1 instead of lvl 2 which is good for higher elos that use these spikes to their advantage but then this is offset in some matches because of his need to AA at close range. You're also now forced to go more on-hit type of build whereas teemo has a diverse build paths currently. Currently these pbe changes are a big nerf at lower elos who probably will die to a lux when they go near to AA and a slight nerf to higher elo's for the above reasons stated. He is nerfed in the disguise of a rework, similarly to akali but she was a true cancar at the beginning of rework though. His jungle i would say has improved but there are million times better junglers out there.
Riot Jag (NA)
: Teemo changes temporarily on PBE for early feedback
Since this is just early testing and teem rework won't come live until few months. I do want to point out that no matter how much you buff his new passive (toxic shot), teemo will never be viable, because of the current damage/mobility creep and teemo being immobile and squishy. The only scenario i see here is that it gets to a point where teemo is completely dominating lanes against immobile juggernauts or heck even bruisers but only in lane. Outside lane, teemo will lose a great amount of significance due to the Q and R nerf. I also want to point out to you about why you guys buffed annie, because of how immobile she was. She has straight up 80% ratio on a spammable ability so whilst teemo is a little more mobile (but lacking CC), i do not think the hard nerf to his Q is justifiable. If anything he has shorter range than annie. You can half health any squishy late game with any damaging max ability of any champ, teemo is no exception to this. While i can understand why R was nerfed, i do think that increasing his ammunition does not help him at all at higher elo's, unless he was to go jungle maybe. Making teemo AA reliant will make him worse in both elo's because you're clearing taking away damage from his ranged abilities and adding it equally to his AA's. Heck he is a shorter ranged version of twitch in this way. Actually he is an inferior twitch in all sense.
Beąr (EUW)
: Hey what do you think of adding the sleep mechanic to Teemo's Q and basically making it something like a tranquilliser? ? Traditionally poisoned darts are made to paralyse & render the target unconscious but I think it would be a bit overpowered to just have a point & click sleep so instead how about making the Q paralyse/sleep proc only happen when an enemy steps on a mushroom? Not to mention that Omega Squad Teemo's gun is literally a Tranquilliser Gun.
I like this idea a lot. Teemo is supposed to be a troller that needs pre-planning to get annoying i.e. spreading shrooms. You should be rewarded for making use of that and being at the site of action. In return they can nerf his R damage for lower elo's because he is a monster there* xD
: I'm a Teemo player from beta. The new rework seems ok only in laning phase and only vs champs that Teemo counters or vs champs that you can play him without big problems. Es: Pantheon - is a hard counter of Teemo but a good Teemo, maxing q and knowing the ranges of Pantheon's abilities, can poke from distance relatively safe and punish him at the first mistake. With the new Nerf at q base damage and AP scaling, if you have pantheon vs you, you can stay in base. Al the damage from q is moved on passive an you can't trade panteon with AA without get a free stun and relative combo than destroy your laning phase. He can also with passive block your first 2 AA if he has passive up and stun up. He destroy you and you make only q damage that isn't enough damage and has 2 times the Pantheon's q CD. Pantheon is only one of some champs that Teemo need to fight maxing q for have a chance to play the lane. Other problem is the versatility destroyed, there are a lot of team comps that force you to play Teemo nuker because the burst damage in enemy's team is too high to let you use AA and make DPS. Without rework you can spam q from long range making a good amount of damage with a good cdr combined with high amount of ap and in some situations you can go all-in using q-lich-gb-lich-ignite destroyng the carry in 1-2 seconds for press r in the right position making a sufficient amount of damage to be considered useful for the team before you die. With the new Nerf to q base damage and AP ratio and r base damage and AP ratio vs these teamcomps you are totally useless because all the damage is moved to passive and you q and r make too low damage if you don't make DPS with AA for having the 50% more damage. In late game is also sufficent for Teemo use the r on a wave in the right moment for winning a fight when enemies try to get turrets and walk near the wave. But now a mushroom make too low damage alone making impossible this play is sufficent worth. The new gameplay is too based on DPS by AA and relative poison to be viable for Teemo. I don't like it, the only way is increase the AA range for Teemo and give him a big amount of ms-as with w or e let him kite better and become like an adc with magic damage. I don't like btw this eventually solution because Teemo has a gameplay that I don't want is changed. He only need probably a little amount of damage on r after you changed from 1 AP ratio to 0.5 e probably a CD on q lowered (6-5 sec) with a buff to mana Regen and Max Mana or you can let the Q cd like now buffing the ap ratio to 1.0 with a little buff on mana-ana regend. When you nerfed the doran's ring stack you have also nerfed the early game on teemo that is unable to spamm Q and need to manage a lot his mana. Is horrible to see a velkoz that spam skill with high frequency having full mana and Teemo with a q every 8 seconds going oom in 5-6 q. Probably you can boost the Ms on w passive and active also because now ad ad caster with youmumu va a teemo without movement speed items, is more faster than teemo, or also a jungler with movement speed runes that on teemo aren't ever worth. If teemo is the swift scout should be more quick than others champ in the game and you nerf the movement speed with E.... WTF and che CD and duration of E is really terrible... if you want theese cd and duration at least that is real steath and not a camouflage.... WTF I don't understand why every time you want rework a champion when with a right buff you can easily make him viable and balanced....
Apparently these changes are to make him better at higher elo's and worse at lower. But, all these changes do is make him worse in both elo's. People in the boards are mainly concerned about how awesome it is to juke a iron 5 with his new E and do not consider what he loses in exchange i.e. invisibility. Only the mains understand this. Now he is AA reliant champ that is squishy with no burst and no dash. Before he had his Q and shroom to allow him keep his distance as you correctly devised in your comment. Now your wave clearing is moved to lvl 16 from lvl 11, this is a joke for higher elos as he is already gutted if this change goes through. Your poke is reduced to AA's and funnily, teemo support is destroyed by the camouflage and Q nerfs, but the design team considers that teemo is a better support now because of his synergy with Twitch and Cass Thanks for the advice... The top is nerfed because of how dependent you are now on your AA's and most champs want exactly that , since they all have some form of initiation i.e. dash/stun to get close when you AA. Only role opened to teemo is jungle with the camouflage and his clearing is not as good as most other junglers out there. First of all, he has no AOE until lvl 6 and even then you wouldn't to use your shrooms to clear camps. Otherwise, the benefit of being able to roam and spread shroom is nil now. I freaking don't understand what rito is doing with him. Last rework completely gutted him and now that he is in a balance/weak state, they want to change his core identity. Not only would the mains have to get used to this new version of teemo but also risk dying due to the high risk involved in being dependent on AA's only. Not to mention how the diversity in his build has succumbed.
Rivorse (EUW)
: This is a message AFTER testing new Teemo on PBE : It seems pretty cool ! But there are some problems that need to be fixed : First of all : **_The passive_** : The amping is too much, really too much, I tested Teemo in Jungle, because his "new" kit seems to be good in the jungle, and the amping is too strong, to easy to clean everything passed level 6. More, the dmgs of the poison per second is also too much. With the Idea in focusing the AS Teemo, why does he have only AP ratio on his passive ? I mean, The basic dmgs + the AP ratio should be nerfed, and an AD ratio should be had. Something like : On-hit 20-50 ( + 15% AP) ( + 15% AD) and 28-126 ( lvl 1 : 7 ( + 8% AP ) ( + 15% ADbonus) ) Then we have : _**The W AND The E**_ : OK, it is pretty funny to be stealth but I was thinking of something : Cant the E and the W be on the same Key ? I mean, like Sylas with his E ! But, Like old LB R with the Mimic of herself, it can be interesting to have 2 different CD on the spell. Exemple : W : Move Quick / Guerilla Warfare : Passive : Teemo's Movement speed is increased by 10-26% if he hasn't taken damages from champions or turret for 3 seconds. If Teemo is hiding for at least 2 seconds in a bush, he becomes stealth until he goes out of the bush. Active : Out of a bush : Teemo doubles his amount of mouvement speed, takking damages don't break the bonus. It can be activate without breaking Stealth. Active : Inside a bush : Teemo focuses on himself, breaking his stealth, after 1 second he becomes stealth even outside a bush for 4-6 seconds. When the stealth breaks, Teemo gains 20-60% of attack speed for 3 seconds. Standing inside a bush stop the remaning time of the stealth until Teemo goes out of the bush or until the stealth is break. So, the E of teemo could be a new spell, something that can make people loves (or hates ;) ) Teemo even more ! Something that really refreshes Teemo's Kit. I don't know what can be here, but I know Riot team can find something to had here ! (PS : My % and my balancing aren't that good, I know it, so if you can help me under this commant, I'll be really glad to see ! And i'll be really glad to know what you do think about my feedback too. :) Be constructive, say me "What is wrong" and "What is good (if there is something good)", it can help better then "LOL ! It sucks !" Thank you ! :) )
Obviously his passive is stronger now, have you seen the nerfs on his Q and R? You want everything to get nerfed for that camouflage which million+ mastery point teemo mains are saying is not superior to his current invisibility passive?
Riot Jag (NA)
: Teemo changes temporarily on PBE for early feedback
I also am of the opinion now that you should just swap his passive and E and you can make his E as simple as a passive which works exactly the same way as it does currently i.e. invisibility in the bush and standing still. Since he will have higher spike at lvl 1, just reduce his AP ratio and base damage on Q as compensation. After he hits lvl 2, he will just be the same as the live teemo. If you want to look at lower elo monsters than look at lux, veig and brand etc. If you ever watched challenger teemo's streams, you'll see that they heavily depend on their shroom damage in lane and outside lane. You're outright killing the damage on his R which only really takes half health of squishies late game at which point they can now lifesteal. If you expect the poor guy to carry the game with his minimal AA range then you're very mistaken about how teemo has worked at higher elo's.
Riot Jag (NA)
: Teemo changes temporarily on PBE for early feedback
More stackable shrooms Camouflage which doesn't tick in bushes = They want teemo to be a jungler Similarly his passive poison is stronger with Q and R poison debuffs, so better clearing. He has a lvl 2 spike at lvl 1 which makes early clearing even better. I wish riot would just straight up tell its audience why they make certain choices, instead of hiding it from them in the fear of backlash. In the end, they do what they want, and they still get backlashes so might as well speak the truth and act like a true warrior.
Riot Jag (NA)
: Teemo changes temporarily on PBE for early feedback
I have listed the Buffs and Nerfs below for others to clearly see. Please let me know if i missed some. _**Buffs in the rework**_ R -Mushrooms health up from 6 at all ranks to 6/8/10. Note: Still takes 1 melee AA with duskblade. -Mushroom max ammo count up from 3 at all ranks to 3/4/5 . Note: shroom CD and the time they last (5mins) is unchanged. E New E Active: After a 1 second delay, Teemo enters Camouflage for 3-5 seconds. Does not tick down whilst in brush or standing still. W No longer breaks stealth Q Can start with Q at level 1 with passive acting as old E. So having lvl 2 spike at level 1 or even greater since passive does more damage and Q amplifies it. Passive 242 passive damage instead of 170 (at max level) 50% passive damage amplification on R and Q (still no idea how it actually works and need more info) Other counterparts (Singed/Cass/twitch) benefit from the passive... pfttt Base Stats -Base Mana Regen 1.92 >>> 2.5 -Mana Regen per level 0.09 >>> 0.15 -Mana/lvl up 20 >>> 25 _**Nerfs in the rework**_ R -Base Damage down 200/325/450 >>> 150/250/350 -AP ratio down 0.5 >>> 0.4 E -Teemo is camouflaged instead of invisible, even in bushes and whilst standing still. -Teemo is slowed by 25/22.5/20/17.5/15% when activating E and when running out of bushes. Q -Base damage down 80/125/170/215/260 >>> 80/115/150/185/220 -AP Ratio down 0.8 -> 0.6 Passive -Reach 60% AS later than you would on live, and on Live you can get to 80% AS which you no longer get with this new version. -Assuming that you get to max passive damage of 242 at lvl 16 - 18. If so, then it is an enormous nerf! -Old passive had no CD, this passive has absurdly high CD. Therefore, now you can only turn camouflage in a brush or whilst standing still, let alone invisible, only when E is activated - Cries
Riot Jag (NA)
: Teemo changes temporarily on PBE for early feedback
I still have issues with understanding how his passive works. If lets say teemo applies his passive and then Q's after 2 seconds. Does the poison debuff amplify the damage for the remaining 2 seconds of ticks on his passive? What happens if i AA again within that time, does his amped DOT passive damage get overridden? As far as i know, every AA of the live teemo does on-hit passive damage and refreshes the previous poison duration. Lastly, are the poison debuff additive from the Q and R? Can you please elaborate on the passive more Jag?
Riot Jag (NA)
: Teemo changes temporarily on PBE for early feedback
Lets do the maths of his new vs old damage. Please correct me if i am wrong. The scenario is that teemo AA's once, Q's once and enemy takes 4second ticks of the shroom (without liandries). All at the same time. I will compare the damage in his old vs his new kit at max level with 200AP. I won't take the base AA damage and passive AP ratio into account in both scenario, as they are unchanged. _**Damage in the New kit**_ Passive = 50 + 192 = 242 Q = 220 + 120 = 340 R = 350 + 80 = 430 Amp damage = Assuming that AA +Q + R, all hit at the same time and the poison debuff are not additive, then teemo's passive will still do 50% more passive damage so 242 x 0.5 = 121 Total = 1133 at max level after 4 seconds of damage from 2 + passive ability. _**Old kit Damage**_ Passive = 170 Q = 260 + 160 = 420 R = 450 + 100 = 550 Total = 1090 Difference of 43 damage If i had taken higher AP ratios then this difference will get bigger. At 300 AP the difference will be 30 less damage in the new kit and so on. With average teemo AP build, he has around 400-600 AP. He will do on average 100 damage less in his new kit. This is not much of a concern to teemo at this point and time. _**Interactions with Items**_ **Liandries** With AA and 4 ticks of shrooms at 200 AP (ignoring the max % health damage in both scenarios): Teemo in his new kit does = ( 242 + 430) x 0.1 = 792 Teemo in his old kit does = (170 + 550) x 0.1 = 740 Overall difference = 52 At higher AP ratios will be difference of 30 x 0.1 = 33 per 100 AP and will add on from 52. Guinsoos Every 2 AA's, teemo will do 190 + 190 x 2 = 570 , in comparison to 170 + 170 x 2 = 510 Difference of 60 I still have issues with understanding how his passive works. If lets say teemo applies his passive and then Q's after 2 seconds. Does the poison debuff amplify the damage from the remaining 2 seconds of ticks? What happens if i AA again, within that time? As far as i know, every AA of the live teemo does on-hit passive damage and refreshes the previous poison. Are the poison debuff additive? Can you please elaborate on the passive more Jag?
Riot Jag (NA)
: Teemo changes temporarily on PBE for early feedback
You could potentially input more utility in his R. For example make it so that teemo has 1 second to reactivate the shroom before the shroom disarms and disappears from sight. Reactivating detonates the shroom. Increasing shroom ammunition does not increase the shrooms per minute. With 4-5 oracels and 4-5 AA every second, more health to shrooms will be barely noticeable. WHy not increase the time shrooms lasts or lower the CD? You could gut his AP ratio to even 20% on shrooms but please don't gut his base damage. On-hit teemo will never work which is the way you are leading him forward. His autoattack range is too small and he is way too squishy with no cc.
Riot Jag (NA)
: Teemo changes temporarily on PBE for early feedback
That gigantic cooldown on his E is absurd. 1) Just keep the E and passive swapping over change and the AP and base ratio nerfs. 2) Keep E a camouflage with an invisbility in brush and whilst standing still 3) If you are going to nerf his R damage then give him lower R cooldown so more shrooms can be spread per minute for vision. Increasing ammunition doesn't change this as good teemo players never sat on 3 full shroom stacks. These simple changes can make him viable at all MMR's and be less one shot shroom type. You're making this more difficult than it is riot!
Físt (EUW)
: As a dedicated Teemo player the change to Guerrilla Warfare is horrible. I think the direction of it is great; giving it an active and moving Toxic Shot to his passive, but the fact its now camouflage instead of invisibility takes away so much outplay potential. IMO the best thing to do with the current PBE change is this: Keep it as it is, but when standing still or in brush (while Guerrilla Warfare is active), its invisibility and not camouflage.
Basically 2 changes and the rest should be kept the same. Add invisibility to his E and remove the pointless slow. Instead of increasing his ammunition, lower his shroom CD or make them last longer from 5 to 7-8 minutes. This way higher elo's can use them for vision. Keep the nerfs to AP and base ratios. They can easily be tweaked if he falls too behind.
Riot Jag (NA)
: Teemo changes temporarily on PBE for early feedback
Senior champion designer* claims the rework is to make teemo more viable at higher MMR. Until he checks Op.gg that teemo has a 56.25% winrate in challenger and 49.46% in iron. So basically the sole reason of this rework is defeated since Mr Senior designer has no idea how teemo works in the current meta. Just because a champ is linear does not make it easy to play him. Damn not in this burst/mobility creep meta! I humbly ask anyone to elaborate to me how these changes will specifically help him in higher elo's? I am very curious other than making his lvl 1 stronger ...
Ahris (NA)
: Typical way to gut a champ. I hope you guys did the same way for Ahri's season 8 rework. Claiming that you guys did it for us Ahri players, but in reality, just wanted to ruin her kit.
I was excited about this change until i read the changes. After Akali it's teemo's turn. Who would have thought.
Riot Jag (NA)
: Teemo changes temporarily on PBE for early feedback
_**Alternative Changes to think about **_ W - Passive No longer grants passive MS! A huge nerf but.. Active : Teemo gains same MS for 3-5 seconds and is now able to detonate shrooms that it runs over during this time. You can keep CD the same. E - Slow removed. Teemo instantly camouflages and gains a little MS, he gains invisibility after 0.5 seconds entering the brush or whilst standing still, during which his camouflage timer does not tick down. W and R no longer break camouflage or invisibility. R - Longer throws at all levels (give him a fixed throw range) and lower CD OR increase how long his shrooms last from 5-8minutes? Shrooms no longer bounce and ammo count stays 3 at all levels but shrooms now have increased health 6/8/9. I also think that his R base ratio should not be touched in compensation since his AP ratio has been nerfed. Passive - stays same but i am not sure if amp damage on it adds up i.e. would Q and R give you 100% passive damage more or just 50%? If the latter, then please a little AP ratio on his passive will help him. Q- stays same with nerfed base and AP ratio. None of these changes are extensive coding wise and most of it is literally the same. I have removed parts of his kits which supposedly were buffs but too situational in practice to be of any use. Can someone give feedback as to the above because i think these changes synergise much more with his new kit?
Kurufeemo (EUW)
: Hi, there, as a diamond euw 1.3 m Teemo main I want to share my feedback too. Generall i like the rework and I like the fact, that you guys Riot care about our beloved hamster. Thanks. The thing I would agree with other people speaking there, is his new e. I understand that you are slowing Teemo down because of Move Quick, and why you make it bad in comparisson to Twitches Q is because the fact that Teemo can move while stealth looks super good at this point. But, invis while standing still or while in the bush would be perfect. If you add this the rework will be super cool and I hope that you are not going to nerf Teemo in the after patches in this case. But if you don't, please!! +50 range!! It's the only thing I ask! Since Teemo is now super reliant on auto attack damage, even more when he is now, his 500 range seems stupidly bad, including the fact that most melee top lane champions have some abilities with longer range than Teemo's auto (like Dariuses e or jaxes q). I'm maxing Q vs Darius right now and vs Cassiopea, but if Q nerfes come out, new camoflage won't help me neither vs one or another. New poison damage feels disguasting, bonus mana regen is quite helpful and binus mushroom health is super worth the damage nerfes, that is for sure! Looking forward for the rework, thanks!
Try using his E in the pbe and then tell me how useful it is. Adding invisibility will solve nothing because of the slow on it is ridiculous and the fact that his base and AP ratios are gutted for this change is absurd. Forget using it as an escape due to the slow and the fact that you are camouflaged only in the brush defeats its purpose to juke enemies. It literally has no purpose at all!
Riot Jag (NA)
: Teemo changes temporarily on PBE for early feedback
People are being misguided by more shroom ammo. That does not mean that teemo will get more shrooms per minute lets say. He just is able to stack them more which currently you should never really sit on 3 shrooms. It's actually not even a buff at higher elo's and doesn't really change much in lower elo. His E toxic shot also has its AP ratio taken away and his camouflage is actually worse than his invisibility in many cases. I don't see how reducing his overall utility and damage is going to help him. Maybe his lvl 1 will be stronger with the new passive and Q but that's all to it really. Teemo will be reduced to on-hit playstyle like Kayle with this current changes.
Riot Jag (NA)
: Teemo changes temporarily on PBE for early feedback
I am not sure where riot intends teemo to go after these changes and i hope it's not the support role. First of all, teemo support never really works and when it does, it does in lower elos where you max Q for poke. You are not only reducing his Q base and AP ratio, you are contradicting with your original intention of making him viable in higher MMR's by making these changes. Whilst we're at it, lets face it, he'll never be picked as support in higher elo's or be viable let alone meta there. I also do not see the E working since it has almost no synergy with his kit and considering other camouflage abilities last much longer and usually give MS, i do not see why teemo isn't? He lacks the CC lock down enemies and the burst to catch them off-guard but still he isn't given MS. Pftt! Best thing so far is his swapping of passive and E. More shroom ammo in compensation for less damage also does not work in higher MMR because to setup shrooms requires time and risk, and makes this less convenient at higher elo's. No challenger teemo will sit on 5 shrooms just to go and marinate them in the enemy jungle whilst leaving his lane. Regardless, with the current burst meta, if the same enemy is doing to die to 2 shrooms instead of 1 then that means it will take you probably max 4 more seconds to kill the same target. How is that logically going to help teemo at higher elo's? Higher elo teemo mains like Ivan Pavlov never really keep sitting on 3 shrooms so more stacks of shrooms are of no use in higher elo's, unless you reduce the CD of each shroom and in which case this can be helpful to provide vision at the least. I see alot of focus is being given on his AA's and tbh if that was the case then there is no niche left between him and twitch and would push teemo into maybe apc on-hit role if anything. Kaisa does this job much better. Teemo is suppose to be annoying and requires preplanning i.e. setting up shrooms and waiting for a potential surprise attack. Of Course it hardly ever worked since his current passive was lackluster but his new E is even worse in comparison so current teemo players just resorted to full AP teemo with maybe 1-2 max defensive items. _**Changes to make**_ W - Passive No longer grants passive MS! A huge neff but.. Active : Teemo gains MS for 3-5 seconds and is now able to detonate shrooms that it runs over during this time. You can keep CD same. E - Slow removed. Teemo camouflages and gains a little MS, he gains invisibility after 0.5 seconds entering the bush or whilst standing still. W and R no longer break camouflage or stealth. R - Longer throws at all levels (give him a fixed throw range). Shrooms no longer bounce and ammo count stays 3 at all levels but shrooms now have increased health 6/8/9. I also think that his R base ratio should not be touched in compensation. You can tweak the AP and base ratios but at least don't ruin his playstyle. I still remember how the last teemo rework, the mains kept crying to you to not change him and many 2million or so mastery teemo mains left playing this champ shortly after and i was amongst them, though not at the same mastery level :)
Valorsalt (EUNE)
: This is broken buff... If u do a math on Q + Auto Attack at lvl 18 220(Q)+242(Passive)+121(50% More form Poison debuff)= 583 SO 583 dmg FROM 2 HITS WITH 0 AP ????? Nice {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
Actually you didn't take into account his base AD as well for the AA. Also the AP ratio is only in his Q (60%) and he will no longer go full AP with all those ap nerfs. Like you mentioned, there was also no AP ratios accounted in your maths but nor did you take MR into account. Vayne late game at lvl 18 can probably do similar or more damage with 3 AA's with just her kit damage, considering she is perma stealth as well at that time. Not as broken as you're making it sound.
Riot Jag (NA)
: Teemo changes temporarily on PBE for early feedback
Thanks Riot, i had uninstalled league but you have given me a reason to come back to play my fav champ. I hope you read my feedback. _**Opinion on the changes**_ Swapping Teemo's E with his passive is a gigantic early game buff to teemo, as where we actually had to put a point in E, now we can just put a point in Q instead. However guys, i strictly believe that the camouflage changes do not equalize the stripping of his invisibility. Simply put, teemos current invisibility passive lets him run around in the bush safe and sound, but the 1.5sec timer on it was a huge drawback so it was always lackluster. I watch challenger teemo streamers like Ipav and i can tell you that they hardly ever use his passive in a game. To be honest, it is worse than lissandra's old passive. Furthermore, standing still and waiting for opponent was also unreliable and ended up wasting your time in most case scenarios, not to mention teemo does not have the burst to catch his opponents off-guard, so the only way was if someone stepped on a shrooms whilst you were invisible. Although, I can see the synergy of the new E (camouflage) with bushes and W (which no longer breaks it), so you can use it to juke enemies to run bush to bush but the fact that you remain camouflage in the bushes is a huge drawback; with the fact that you lose MS when using it. Imagine a scenario where teemo uses this camouflage like neeko to close up some distance, but then he has no CC whatsoever, nor the burst to actually utilise it? If anything this might make him a better jgler but his jungle clear as of right now is terrible. Now consider teemo uses this new E to escape a tough situation, the fact that he gets slowed means that the enemy will simply tag along so that they do not lose sight of you.. I mean his W can be of assistance since it will not break his camouflage but the 90% of the currently played champs have some form of mobility and the enemy will simply tag along. The current invisibility passive is actually more useful than this camouflage change I think. _**Feedback**_ I understand that teemo is reworked with a mindset that he should still stay annoying but viable in higher MMR's and that will be focal point of my suggestions. **_Camouflage change suggestion_** When teemo is camouflaged he gains 10/15/20/25/30% MS. When teemo enters a bush, after 0.5 seconds teemo becomes invisible and walking around in bush does not break invisibility. Similarly, when teemo enters camouflage and stands still for 0.5seconds, he enters invisibility. Camouflage does not tick down while Teemo is invisible. Using W and throwing a mushroom (R) does not break invisibility or camouflage (similar to shaco). The camouflage time can be lowered to 3sec at all levels if the changes seem drastic. With the above suggestion you are mixing both of teemos current and new (E/passive) but the effect is that the camouflage simply makes it easier for teemo do go invisible which his current passive was always lackluster at. You can juke enemies and go camouflage and turn invisible and then run to the next bush and so on until the timer of camouflage wears off. OR you can displace yourself when camouflaged and then go invisible; much more convenient than his current stand-still only invisibility. _**Teemo Shroom Suggestion**_ With my most humble opinion, i also think that teemo's shrooms have been lackluster ever since he got reworked. Sure, before the rework he was able to one shroom squishies but the changes to his R were similar to his passive. The throw and bounce of shrooms was unreliable. I have 2 suggestion in regards to this. Teemo is able to throw at max range at all levels. Maybe lower this max level than it currently is. Teemo has 1 second to detonate the shroom (by pressing R again within 1 second). Teemo can no longer detonate the shroom when it's disarmed (i.e. after 1 second). I personally think that if he was given a similar treatment to GP and detonating one shroom detonated others in its vicinity but the damage from multiple shrooms won't stack or amp up his passive. You can in-return even remove his bounces and the HP buff to shrooms for this change. Also a big NO to reducing both his base R damage and the AP ratio on it. Its only the full AP teemo that is troublesome, you shouldn't need to touch his base damage. In addition, his passive should get an AP ratio which you took off (sadly) so that on-hit AP teemo can replace full AP teemo. You literally nerfed all of his AP ratio, at least let his passive have one. I personally believe that all of the AP ratio nerfs and base damage nerfs, the mere passive/E change and amping of damage will not be rewarding for teemo at higher elo's, not to mention that camouflage change with the slow seems worse than his current invisibility.
: Everyone suddenly "loves" the old Kayle, meanwhile she is one of the top 4 least played champions.
I wonder if league will ever come to a point where you hardly ever get to see the same champs being picked consecutively in your games.
: This community is full of toxic people searching for toxicity in everything everyone does. Amazing how you can turn someone choosing not to ban a champ as such a negative thing. I personally barely see someone do it anyways...this community loves getting tilted over everything, you crave it, you must report everything to riot if you get upset.
Since when did OP regard "not banning" as negative? Banning is an asset and each team has limited of them. The OP is trying to make the point that such assets should be allowed to be reused by team mates since it is a team game you know. If you do not see ban as an asset then this discussion is complete.
ExxonV (NA)
: Okay, this makes no sense to further argue with someone who just doesn't understand how much they don't know about the game. I could take brand and outperform in silver without needing mastery points on him because of the experience I have with league, both as playing him and against him. I could do that on legit any champ, because silver's don't do mechanics. And this is what I keep trying to communicate to you, that the reason yas seems busted is because you lack the tools to play against his mechanics. Now you can either learn them... or just continue to bitch that counterplay champs are busted, but that's never gonna do anything to help you win games. And if you just really don't care about improving or winning games to climb, then why even argue about the video game to begin with? I've actually taken the time to get decent at this game so I could have accounts to diamond/high plat across multiple roles, so I like to discuss things about this game I enjoy. I don't see where you're coming from if your greatest accomplishment is not trying lol.
His shield negate pokes ( even AA's count as poke) whilst his E resets his shield. His ult puts him outside tower range and can be used as gapcloser whilst his tornado provides a good poke since it goes through minions. His Windwall blocks nearly all projectiles except Lux and Velkoz Ult's since they are lasers. To beat Yas, you have to play away from minions especially so if you are skill-shot reliant. I have beaten Yas in lane many times and I have played against platinum and diamond players and some were yas. I have carried with Brand (as easy as it maybe) and the enemy have had fed Yas. I don't think just because i don't play ranked means that i don't want to improve. I also do not see how this discussion was ever about countering Yas (unless you're a chimp) you'll understand that it's not rocket science. He clearly counters skill-shot mana reliant champs; yes you can play around it as i gave my example of Lux, but ultimately your laning phase is cancerous because of his design. And still you fail to understand the main point of argument in this discussion, i'm glad i wouldn't need to waste my energy on you anymore.
ExxonV (NA)
: I mean I cannot convince you that you need to improve your mechanics if you don't wanna accept that fact. But all of the matchups that you believe to be counters are in fact skill matchups. I don't play mid on this account because this account is new and only owns two mid laners, annie and viktor. This is not my first account and I've gotten my mid only account to P2 with very few games and a 59% w/r. Mastery points are a participation award, you play in silver so you're not playing well or against good players. Nothing I said was theoretical, if you cannot understand that yas is locked in place when he e's, and that you can exploit that on ranged champs, or that you can position yourself with minions so he cannot E directly onto you, then IDK, you're just gonna have to stay stuck at your skill level until you start realizing that you have to improve to climb in this game. Also lack of performance is not further proof of a valid opinion... IDK why you would think it is. You're making an argument out of ignorance because you have never taken the time to actually PLAY yas, and become familiar with his weaknesses and so you jump to assumptions about how strong he is.
You don't need to convince me to improve. This discussion was never about me. Just because i am silver (eventhough i have never once tried to climb, unlike you) does not mean that my arguments automatically become invalid. If that was the case, you would have yield to any arguments that a higher elo player makes, regardless of how absurd it may be. As for mastery points, i am hinting at you that i am much more aware of brand's kit than you could ever be. The point where i read you telling me to W where Yas's E, i immediately knew that you forgot to take Brand's W's 0.75 cast time into account and only an idiot will try to W Yas with ally minions around. Like i said, you always consider the Yas to be a bad player and that does not bode well with me. If you wanted me to E him to poke then maybe you want to look at Brand's mana cost on E and the damage as well on it. Brand's E is simply a tool to spread his passive; regardless a E to Yasuo with a shield on will hardly hurt. If you still don't understand what i mean, try laning as brand mid first, instead of telling me to learn yasuo's weakness and tell me how easy it is to Q a GOOD yas or even ult. I have played Yasuo but i have also played against him million times now, i don't think the issue here was ever, about countering Yasuo. Yasuo is countered by fighting him away from your minions, contrary to how you fight the majority of the roster. It is not rocket science like you are making it out to be. You simply are neglecting that his kit counters skill-shot/mana reliant. That is a huge number of the roster.
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sobi999

Level 138 (EUW)
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