Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 29
Yorick mains have been ignored for so long now. . . and any other juggernaut. While I am glad to see some changes for Sterak's, the proposed changes do not really solve the issues we have with Sterak's really. Problems are: feels wrong to be getting a shield AFTER getting bursted, and having a reactive tenacity rather than a proactive one AFTER having been bursted in the first place. Sterak's should be an active used to ignore CC for a very short duration (1 to 2 seconds), and perhaps a selfish shielding effect (3 to 5 seconds) of medium strength to negate some of that incoming damage and on a relatively short cooldown (36s or so). The skill expression involved in using such an effect properly on champions that are actually going to build it (and with it being melee only now), makes sense. CC immunity should be only accessible if you haven't used a dash in the last 30 seconds (making it good for the preemptive shield even on divers, but not useful for them for CC immunity, they already have access to Mercurial's Scimitar for such a similar effect, or Edge of Night). Next, do something to get rid of Autofill. . . if that isn't gone in the next season I am pretty sure everyone I know is quitting, we all hate it. Lastly, the gold value of many of the new runes feel extremely obnoxious.
: Reposted from other thread: Yorick relies on his ghouls, which is by design, it is his passive. His kit should have more redundancies rather than just more power in healing or damage from him directly. By this I mean the following: More ways to generate graves outside of just Q, I always suggest graves generation from his W after a 4 second delay (1/1/2/2/3 by rank) A very small amount of healing (1-5% by rank in Q) from damage done by ghouls (to themselves and Yorick) Yorick's Q marks targets, nearby Mistwalkers jump to that target doing damage on landing (is an auto attack reset for the walkers) Mistwalkers changed to have Zyra or Heimer plant health systems (1 hit early, 2 hits mid game, 3 hits late game) to kill Ultimate no longer summons Mistwalkers with Maiden (Maiden can still generate them by killing things) Maiden % health damage lowered 2/3/4% (by rank), but 2 second delay between procs removed These changes create reliability in his kit, allowing him to summon walkers more consistently throughout laning and late game, the impact of which is more than just one hit and gone (amplified by their self healing capabilities), and is prepared for a world where faster auto attacking because of the new Runes system will most impact a large portion of the roster that already hurts Yorick (Marksmen, Duelists). This is how I would ask them to change Yorick, and is a consolidated list because honestly they could change only the W graves generation and remove walkers on Maiden summon and that really be enough for me. I just want to have consistent power spikes on demand without relying on the long CD ultimate. Then being able to treat Maiden as a split push / steroid tool instead of an emergency walker generation tool would feel much better overall.
Another way to increase reliability would be to give him a secondary passive that reduces the cooldown of his skills when he auto attacks minions, monsters, or players. This would let him generate slightly more graves with Q, wall more frequently in the early game, E more frequently against ranged matchups and in teamfight situations, and allow him to have Ult up more often for mistwalker production. It's an elegant solution that also works into his role as a Juggernaut who wants to be in the thick of battle, because currently he is more like an AD caster assassin in gameplay style getting little benefit from auto attacking at all and being more reliant on just Q, E, Auto and walk away (or an in and out kind of play style). The actual reduction would probably need to be relatively small so as not to become a Ryze kind of chain caster at melee range with tons of attack speed. . . but it would open the door for easy tuning as well. Something like 15% of the cooldown of each skill, to keep some cooldowns from getting entirely too short (cast animations of each skill keep it from going down too low due to chain auto attacking).
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BEkmEQ6s,comment-id=00170000,timestamp=2017-09-28T00:18:35.876+0000) > > Additive with Mercs, multiplicative with (I believe) every other source. There's probably some other strange interaction in the system somewhere. If I missed something I might have to revisit. > > We need to do a pass on how Tenacity stacks in general, but for now this was the least harmful approach I could find. im really worried about {{item:3053}} {{item:3078}} interaction. is there any way to deal with sheen items to allow steraks and sheen items to be good on their own, without putting them over the edge when combined?
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BEkmEQ6s,comment-id=001700000000,timestamp=2017-09-28T01:20:58.692+0000) > > im really worried about {{item:3053}} {{item:3078}} interaction. > > is there any way to deal with sheen items to allow steraks and sheen items to be good on their own, without putting them over the edge when combined? I would like to see the Sheen effect damage be normalized over the course of a game rather than variable based on a specific champion’s base AD. Having it scales with level or even just a flat number may make it more balanced.
: Just wanted to get out ahead of this one - we've been testing it on Jax/Irelia/Camille, it may be strong on them, we're comfortable with that.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BEkmEQ6s,comment-id=000b0001,timestamp=2017-09-27T21:50:10.546+0000) > > Just wanted to get out ahead of this one - we've been testing it on Jax/Irelia/Camille, it may be strong on them, we're comfortable with that. I wanted to say thanks for making it melee only, really feels good to see that. While you are around, have you considered making it's passive shielding an active effect instead. It feels really weak being reactive with it, very much like just a stat stick with no skill expression on a number of champs that do not buy much in the way of item actives anyhow. I suggest an active that replaces the tenacity part of the current passive shielding effect, providing 2 second of unstoppable, 30 second cooldown. That provides a good way to work against incoming CC, and has a lot of skill expression without being spammable, and allows many melee to actually do their thing for a short time while engaging into a teamfight.
: Calling all Yorick Mains: What should like You to see improved on yorick.
Reposted from other thread: Yorick relies on his ghouls, which is by design, it is his passive. His kit should have more redundancies rather than just more power in healing or damage from him directly. By this I mean the following: More ways to generate graves outside of just Q, I always suggest graves generation from his W after a 4 second delay (1/1/2/2/3 by rank) A very small amount of healing (1-5% by rank in Q) from damage done by ghouls (to themselves and Yorick) Yorick's Q marks targets, nearby Mistwalkers jump to that target doing damage on landing (is an auto attack reset for the walkers) Mistwalkers changed to have Zyra or Heimer plant health systems (1 hit early, 2 hits mid game, 3 hits late game) to kill Ultimate no longer summons Mistwalkers with Maiden (Maiden can still generate them by killing things) Maiden % health damage lowered 2/3/4% (by rank), but 2 second delay between procs removed These changes create reliability in his kit, allowing him to summon walkers more consistently throughout laning and late game, the impact of which is more than just one hit and gone (amplified by their self healing capabilities), and is prepared for a world where faster auto attacking because of the new Runes system will most impact a large portion of the roster that already hurts Yorick (Marksmen, Duelists). This is how I would ask them to change Yorick, and is a consolidated list because honestly they could change only the W graves generation and remove walkers on Maiden summon and that really be enough for me. I just want to have consistent power spikes on demand without relying on the long CD ultimate. Then being able to treat Maiden as a split push / steroid tool instead of an emergency walker generation tool would feel much better overall.
: Yorick needs a tune up and more power for himself instead of his ghouls.
First, I agree with redistribution of his power slightly, however the place where you want to put his power is not where I would like it honestly. Yorick relies on his ghouls, which is by design, it's his passive. His kit should have more redundancies rather than just more power in healing or damage from him directly. By this I mean the following: More ways to generate graves outside of just Q, I always suggest graves generation from his W after a 4 second delay (1/1/2/2/3 by rank) A very small amount of healing (1-5% by rank in Q) from damage done by ghouls (to themselves and Yorick) Yorick's Q marks targets, nearby Mistwalkers jump to that target doing damage on landing (is an auto attack reset for the walkers) Mistwalkers changed to have Zyra or Heimer plant health systems (1 hit early, 2 hits mid game, 3 hits late game) to kill Ultimate no longer summons Mistwalkers with Maiden (Maiden can still generate them by killing things) Maiden % health damage lowered 2/3/4% (by rank), but 2 second delay between procs removed These changes create reliability in his kit, allowing him to summon walkers more consistently throughout laning and late game, the impact of which is more than just one hit and gone (amplified by their self healing capabilities), and is prepared for a world where faster auto attacking because of the new Runes system will most impact a large portion of the roster that already hurts Yorick (Marksmen, Duelists). This is how I would ask them to change Yorick, and is a consolidated list because honestly they could change only the W graves generation and remove walkers on Maiden summon and that really be enough for me. I just want to have consistent power spikes on demand without relying on the long CD ultimate. Then being able to treat Maiden as a split push / steroid tool instead of an emergency walker generation tool would feel much better overall.
: Yorick Ghoul, or 'Mist Walker', and Maiden Revamp Ideas
I would love to see changes to Yorick, more than most anyone really, but I have come to realize that Riot is not interested in making him more versatile or balanced in any way at all. His counterplay is either kiting him or stat checking him, neither of which feel good for the Yorick player. Riot does not want him or other fighters to be good (especially if they lack mobility). The changes I would propose would be graves production on W, as the wall decays or is destroyed (telegraphing a potential window of power on a cooldown that is long early and short late), and Maiden % health damage more normalized to enhance dueling capabilities (reduced to 2, 3.5, 5 %, removing internal 2sec cooldown). The latter would make his auto reset more powerful but also make his dueling less bursts in general, while the former makes his trading capabilities more rewarding for skillful usage of abilities. Both of these changes would only marginally adjust his play style. Ultimately, it does not matter though, because Riot is never going to do any of this stuff, they would not even think about it (not on their radar at all), because he is not a flashy frequently played champion.
: Playing Darius in high elo is asking to lose, and this is how you fix it?
My suggested solution has always been an item or rune with an active that makes the user unstoppable for 1 second but slows them to base movespeed, with a relatively short cooldown that goes on an extremely long (3-4 times the normal) cooldown if the user has dashed or blinked. That resolves the issue with being CC’d to death in teamfights, and works for all Juggernauts but unlikely very useful to any other class because of it’s restrictions or because it slows them down. Ranged is unlikely to opt for such things over getting more damage in a similar rune or item slot, and there are only a few truly immobile ranged champions anyhow. Hey though, it could be a good idea or terrible, doesn’t matter really because no one at Riot is going to read this anyhow.
: @Riot, about the yorick skin, please just listen to us
This has been the story of Yorick in the game of League of Legends since the beginning. Yorick is not a champion they want in the game, input from the mains who play this champion have always been massively ignored, while people who play him only occasionally get what they want with the champ. The balance and development team has no interest in him, and now the skin team pretty much is showing us the same thing. Resources are evidently better spent on other champions, and the crowd who plays Yorick are not important enough to them. So with everything they have shown me over the years, the solution seems pretty obvious, quit playing League and start playing and spending money on other games. It has been fun, but no longer trying to be ignored. I am just another random nobody to them anyhow, good luck to them in their endeavors, hopefully it brings them years of success.
: After 5 years of League, I am calling it quits at the end of the season.
Watched this thread for a long time, and was considering my feelings toward the game over the course of this past year myself. I have played since right before Yorick was released, having been gotten into this game by some friends. Over the years many of them quit because they just moved on to other games that they found more interesting at the time. The past two years have in turn made me dislike the game more and more, with the introduction of several systems that have very greatly diminished the value of the game for me. Autofill has made balanced matches even worse, all for shorter queue times. Quality of the game experience is by far the most important element, and it has been compromised by newer mechanics and an overall favoritism towards mobility, range, and displacement effects. Lastly, my favorite class of champion, Juggernaut, was again ignored for another year, receiving minimal changes to itemizations or individual champions. My absolute favorite champion has been left in a buggy somewhat weakened state for the whole year and while finally slated to get a skin... I cannot help feeling like it is just too little and too late. I am going to play around with the changes in preseason, but I am done with the game. Good luck to Riot in their endeavors I truly hope it goes well for them, but it is time for me too to step away. There are tons of companies that would like me to spend some money on them. It should be pointed out before I leave, that I have 4 accounts, all of which have had some purchases, and had I ever seen some actual changes designed to really help my class of champions perform in the game I would have spent a lot more money on the game. Feeling ignored for years does not really encourage one to buy a lot more though. Thanks for all the memories.
Sasogwa (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ðelofasht,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mwWKGjgB,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2017-09-16T12:24:07.122+0000) > > The mobility creep is only noticeably a problem when playing champions without any, so obviously, making a solution that works for them only seems natural. Mobility creep means there's more and more mobility in this game and it's becoming overwhelming. Your suggestion.. Is to put even more mobility aka even more mobility creep. Uh...
> [{quoted}](name=Sasogwa,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mwWKGjgB,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-17T10:02:47.648+0000) > > Mobility creep means there's more and more mobility in this game and it's becoming overwhelming. Your suggestion.. Is to put even more mobility aka even more mobility creep. Uh... If everyone has mobility, the problem will not feel like one, that is the point. The same cannot be said for damage or crowd control, because those remove choices, where mobility is always about providing meaningful choices. My suggestion makes it more fair, and keep any mobility out of the hands of ones who already have some.
: > Mobility creep = match mobility of immobile champs with those of mobile ones through itemization that only works if you did not blink or dash recently. Rather than reduce mobility make it available to everyone. _**What**_
> [{quoted}](name=DJMason88,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mwWKGjgB,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2017-09-15T23:27:50.769+0000) > > _**What**_ The mobility creep is only noticeably a problem when playing champions without any, so obviously, making a solution that works for them only seems natural.
Euriko (EUW)
: The real culprit for the so called "damage", "Crowd control" and "mobility" creep
Damage creep = really just Crit and a few new items bypassing too much armor sometimes. Rework Crit, reduce effectiveness of Duskblade (internal cooldown on the damage application). Mobility creep = match mobility of immobile champs with those of mobile ones through itemization that only works if you did not blink or dash recently. Rather than reduce mobility make it available to everyone. Crowd Control Creep = displacements are in too many kits, solve with skill expression itemization that allows players to ignore it for a short duration on a relatively short cooldown. Marksmen already get a cleanse item and assassins have EoN, mages have Zhonyas, Tanks really do not have an item, neither do fighters (Mercurial/EoN is not very good on most of them). CDR does not feel like the culprit to me, but being able to go over cap has been an issue. CDR allows some champions to actually combo somewhat frequently, and being available to all keeps it pretty fair for everyone. The issue is when players cannot use abilities or they simply are not needed because right clicking fully outscales abilities.
: Since you all are up in arms over ADCs, here's how to fix it:
Just make crit not random, and preferably be doing a percentage of max health building up over time on a single target. This makes it less about bursting down single targets and more about bringing down high health targets over a relatively short duration. It benefits even more from AS like that and becomes good for all sorts of on hit champs.
: I think it's a bit of a tall order to expect Yorick to be chosen for the ultimate skin. It might happen, but chances are that it'll be for a different Top Laner. That being said, I rather liked Arclight Yorick, both as a concept and the version Riot made. Once I get enough money, I'm definitely paying for this one. While it wasn't an original skin, the line itself was made by Riot. If arclight thresh were released, I certainly wouldn't cry out that it was uninspired, or failed to turn his gameplay fantasy. You do raise some fair points though. I think that if Yorick did have such an obviously positive skin, that it should have been legendary tier, due to needing voicelines changed. Unlike Star Guardian Syndra, whose dark angry voicelines can be explained easily with her Bio, Arclight Yorick is so obviously a lawful good type skin that its potential only exists in a video, not in an actual game, where lines are heard. Here's what I do point out. Skin development has changed A LOT since Yorick and other low-count champions have been released. More specifically Skin LINES have been more frequent than standalone skins. This allows riot to create up to five skins per patch for five champions. Now, looking at the 139 champions we have right now, it would take 28 patches or 56 weeks to make and release a skin for every champion that currently exists. LOGICALLY that is, which Riot won't follow because of E-sports events (Champion, Conqueror, and Worlds skins). However, skinlines due allow neglected champions to get skins more often NOW. If we go this route, it is highly likely that Yorick would get another skin in about 1.5-3 years given his rework. Before, for the majority of the six years he existed, Riot didn't even consider him a champion, and did their utmost to keep players from playing him, newplayers from finding him, and keeping him in a rough state until further work was done on him. I don't think it is fair to complain about 6 years without skin attention, but I REALLY AM PISSED that they didn't VGU him sooner. That is really worth calling them out for. If you consider his VGU the time when Riot actually began considering giving him a skin, it took him, one year to get a skin. That's right in ONE YEAR after his VGU he got a skin. IDK about you, but that is pretty good. I know it's kinda spitting in the face of old Yorick mains, and I apologize for that. But it's probably what riot did. Yorick was a failed champion by design, and Riot was kinda ashamed of him. Some brave souls saw the beauty in that champion, and so were punished for liking something that Riot, (and a lot of his lane opponents) really hated. That problem should be fixed now, so I'm 100% confident in saying this isn't the only skin we'll see for another six years.
> [{quoted}](name=KuroCaliber,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=dAc9w9k5,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-09-13T01:31:54.134+0000) > Yorick was a failed champion by design, and Riot was kinda ashamed of him. > The really disturbing thing is. . . the changes didn't actually do much. His good matchups stayed good, and his bad ones stayed bad, while his teamfight potential actually went down, and his split push power remained the same (because chain casting ghouls into revenant into more ghouls meant smashing towers fast back in the day). This is not to say I dislike the current Yorick, just that the old one felt better and more fluid and versatile, and just better at everything. . . if he had been played right.
Dormidon (EUW)
: So what about juggernauts?
Juggernauts make for a more fair carry because they can be kited by ranged, the problem right now is ranged do not to actually kite at all, come mid game they can just stand there and shoot and kill the Juggernaut before it can close the gap by walking due to any slows or hard CC applied to them on the way in. Currently, the game is very hostile towards melee in general, and it is made unbearably so by playing an immobile melee. When a juggernaut is carrying it is because the enemy are playing into their strengths and not utilizing their weaknesses.
Queš (EUW)
: Meddler what about {{champion:83}} followup changes ? You wanted to buff his E or smth while ago. Also what about another juggernaut {{champion:6}} ?
> [{quoted}](name=Ungrím,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=I5AEKAI3,comment-id=0019,timestamp=2017-09-08T16:58:45.821+0000) > > Meddler what about {{champion:83}} followup changes ? You wanted to buff his E or smth while ago. > > Also what about another juggernaut {{champion:6}} ? I am of the opinion that changes to Yorick should revolve around his mistwalker production. If they want to keep it linked so heavily to his ultimate, allow him to get a reset on the cooldown for assists or kills while Maiden is not up. That provides production and teamfight desire and enhanced capability while also stemming the urge for people to just instantly destroy her with no care. There should be considerable effort in destroying something that is not living. . . Currently a marksmen waves at her and she evaporates. As for Urgot, I think he, like all Juggernauts, could really benefit from an item active that gives them Unstoppable for a very short duration with a low cooldown, that reduces movespeed by 50% and denies usage of mobility skills. Not useful for engaging, but instead for well timed response to incoming CC. Stats would need to be terrible for marksmen, assassins, and bruisers/divers though. Would really not want an item meant for Juggernauts being abused by every other class again.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ðelofasht,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=00290000,timestamp=2017-09-08T22:25:32.788+0000) > > And no matter how plainly clear that is from looking at their kits people still expect them to be the front line, when they are actually a mid line champion. Unless you got CC to back them up, they ain't gonna be proper tanks and even then they wouldn't be as doing it as well because they don't have the tanking power in their kit.
> [{quoted}](name=DragonShea,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=002900000000,timestamp=2017-09-08T23:08:27.837+0000) > > Unless you got CC to back them up, they ain't gonna be proper tanks and even then they wouldn't be as doing it as well because they don't have the tanking power in their kit. Exactly, just wish the few people who do not understand the distinction would stop perpetuating the problem. Every game is one person telling me to be the tank for the team, and I am like. . . "No, because I am not a tank, no engage or decent peel abilities." Feels dumb that we gotta say that every game, like do people not know how a Juggernaut works?
: Yep Juggs ain't tanks. They got the damage close to an ADC and the tankiness close to a tank, but they can't keep anyone safe. Tanks are meant engage like a motherfucker or peel harder cockblocking bitch peels the sanity of some men. Juggs can't engage well because they are too slow and lack gap close power or they can't really peel as effectively like wardens do.
> [{quoted}](name=DragonShea,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=0029,timestamp=2017-09-08T17:43:08.268+0000) > > Yep Juggs ain't tanks. They got the damage close to an ADC and the tankiness close to a tank, but they can't keep anyone safe. Tanks are meant engage like a motherfucker or peel harder cockblocking bitch peels the sanity of some men. Juggs can't engage well because they are too slow and lack gap close power or they can't really peel as effectively like wardens do. And no matter how plainly clear that is from looking at their kits people still expect them to be the front line, when they are actually a mid line champion.
Calabok (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ðelofasht,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=0028000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-08T04:02:29.106+0000) > > No, no I do not. YOU may, but that doesn't make you right, and the majority of the player base will disagree with calling him a tank as well. They may say he is 'tanky' but that's not the same thing as being a tank. They mean he is difficult to kill, not that he can initiate fights and peel for teammates, while also having a ton of health and soaking damage. brick wall it seems. your way or the highway eh?
> [{quoted}](name=Calabok,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=00280000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-08T04:35:24.062+0000) > > brick wall it seems. your way or the highway eh? Not really, look through this thread, when I'm wrong I will readily admit it. Here is not an example of that though, you can choose to see things however you like. You are free to make that choice, but when you start imposing your misperceptions on others then you create a situation in which confusion regarding what a tank is or does in League is compounded. The ultimate result is that you have no one playing actual tanks on your team, and you increase your chances of losing to a better constructed team composition. None of it matters if no one on your team actually knows how to play a tank of course. It's not as simple as see enemy, rush in, but there is a video in this thread regarding how to teamfight that can bring one up to speed quite quickly. Good luck to you, in whatever you choose to believe.
Calabok (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ðelofasht,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=00280000,timestamp=2017-09-08T03:50:37.526+0000) > > People try to say semantics as a way to argue their point when they believe the language does not influence the expectations or perceptions of a concept. Words are our only way of conveying meaning unfortunately, and thus it's not just semantics, because it is relating to how we perceive the function of a tank. We are arguing the perception of what a tank does, and how Juggernauts do NOT fulfill that function. nope. it really is semantics. tank is tank even if Viegar builds all tank items. you call him a tank.
> [{quoted}](name=Calabok,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=002800000000,timestamp=2017-09-08T03:58:43.852+0000) > > nope. it really is semantics. tank is tank even if Viegar builds all tank items. you call him a tank. No, no I do not. YOU may, but that doesn't make you right, and the majority of the player base will disagree with calling him a tank as well. They may say he is 'tanky' but that's not the same thing as being a tank. They mean he is difficult to kill, not that he can initiate fights and peel for teammates, while also having a ton of health and soaking damage.
Calabok (NA)
: semantics
> [{quoted}](name=Calabok,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=0028,timestamp=2017-09-08T03:12:03.605+0000) > > semantics People try to say semantics as a way to argue their point when they believe the language does not influence the expectations or perceptions of a concept. Words are our only way of conveying meaning unfortunately, and thus it's not just semantics, because it is relating to how we perceive the function of a tank. We are arguing the perception of what a tank does, and how Juggernauts do NOT fulfill that function.
: LIES! Is it melee and not Yi or Yasuo? Its a tank. I promise. My teammates told me.
> [{quoted}](name=dale simmons,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=0027,timestamp=2017-09-08T02:12:03.387+0000) > > LIES! Is it melee and not Yi or Yasuo? Its a tank. I promise. My teammates told me. LOL. Tryndamere tank is brutal.
: I know that he is a diver, hence why I said thanks to this guy pointing out that divers are not tanks either. ^^
> [{quoted}](name=SatomiKun,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-07T21:33:58.251+0000) > > I know that he is a diver, hence why I said thanks to this guy pointing out that divers are not tanks either. ^^ I agree that Divers are not tanks either, but they at least have the tools with which to engage, where the Juggernaut doesn't even have that. It IS far better for a Diver to follow up on the initial engage performed by actual tanks or by a catcher.
: Kinda depends on the Juggernaut or tank in question. I mean it's true that "Tanks" (by which you actually mean "Wardens" and "Wardens that use their Ult to engage, also known as Vanguard's") tend to provide CC threats, while juggernauts provide damage threats. But at the end of the day, some games, a Juggernaut's primary job ends up being to deal damage, while some games their job is soaking damage. Especially someone like Darius or Volibear, who sometimes win the game by rubbing head first into the enemy team and getting engaged on. And sometimes, a tank's primary job is to dive in and threaten damage on a squishy -cho'gath, malphite, and nautilus are well suited to this and pre-rework see was phenomenal at it. At the end of the day, there are two settings in which to define rolls: the metagame, which Riot has exhaustively labeled, and the in-game contribution, which they seem to try to decide rather than to work around. A tank is traditionally a character whose primary roll is to take damage, regardless of how. Obviously sticking strictly to traditional roles doesn't work for League, but telling people they're "wrong" just for calling the champion that prioritized soaking damage in the last game a "tank" doesn't help anything.
Soaking damage and threatening squishies is not enough to be considered a tank, many Divers can soak damage quite well as well (Warwick, Xin, Jarvan IV, Olaf), but they are obviously not tanks either. Disabling an enemy makes the tank, otherwise it is just a durable damage dealer. . . oh hey that's a Juggernaut or Diver! A tank's job is not primarily just taking damage, that is a side effect of them doing their job, which is start fights or intercept damage dealers trying to kill their team mates. They are given the tools to mitigate that damage while either initiating or peeling. Juggernauts do not have those tools, slows and easily escaped crowd control abilities just do not stop them from eating a ton of damage, also they do not have mobility. The thing is, it's not about telling them they are wrong, because it's not about right or wrong, it's about the perception of what a Juggernaut will do in a game, and being the tank and engaging is not what they do. It's not simply about a name or title or classification, it's about the actions people take based on the perception of that title. If people say a Juggernaut is a tank, then they expect their "tank" to actually do tank things, like engage and peel. . . which Juggernauts do not do. This all seems pretty straight forward. In short: Do not expect a Juggernaut to do the engage or peel for you. . . they are neither a Vanguard or a Warden.
S0NA (NA)
: There's a massive variation in tankyness between juggernauts. Mordekaiser is significantly squishier than Darius.
> [{quoted}](name=S0NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=0025,timestamp=2017-09-07T21:19:55.525+0000) > > There's a massive variation in tankyness between juggernauts. > > Mordekaiser is significantly squishier than Darius. Problem is Morde's durability is linked to how much damage he can do, which means if the enemy builds resists against him he's losing a significant portion of his durability, which feels quite bad.
: And yet riot classifies him as specialist. Singed on his own has terrible engage because believe it or not but when someone comes running at you it's quite obvious. Following up on hard engage as singed is great tho. Can singed be played as an engage tank? yeh sure when you use {{item:3800}} but then you're specifically building for it and might aswell pick someone who specializes in it. imo singed is an ap bruiser (or even ap Juggernaut), Riot clearly intended singed to build AP and even buffed his ratio's because tank Singed became the meta. i heard someone say "the wiki is your friend" He's marked as specialist, by both riot and the wiki btw. Only in the client is he marked as a tank. >Fighter (also known as Bruiser) Fighters are a diverse group of short-ranged combatants who excel at both dealing and surviving damage. With easy access to heavy, continuous damage (or DPS) and a host of innate defenses, fighters thrive in extended fights as they seek out enemies to take down, but their limited range puts them at constant risk of being kept at bay (or kited) by their opponents via crowd control, range and mobility. -straight from the wiki Singed is an offtank dps champion weak to being kited. The problem comes from his playstyle being incredibly different from most as he needs his mobility to actually do damage making him a specialist. i use {{item:3027}} {{item:3116}} {{item:3151}} as core and often do more damage than our carries while still being tanky enough. besides what we call a juggernaut right now we called an offtank 1 season ago. Juggernaut is even the highest possible title for a tank so the client even tells me singed is a juggernaut. The whole description of a juggernaut is: tankiest version of a bruiser/fighter.
> [{quoted}](name=Vape Naysh YalI,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=002000000000,timestamp=2017-09-07T17:17:10.760+0000) > > And yet riot classifies him as specialist. > > Singed on his own has terrible engage because believe it or not but when someone comes running at you it's quite obvious. Following up on hard engage as singed is great tho. > You are actually correct, I was basing my information off the client and the old Wiki information evidently it was updated at some point and I missed it. Some pages still had Singed marked as tank. People should know, when I'm wrong I will admit it. I am not so proud as to think myself infallible.
: > [{quoted}](name=Jbels,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=00040002,timestamp=2017-09-07T16:45:15.579+0000) > > That's just how juggernauts work. You're not a tank unless you have the CC to back up the tankiness That's bullshit. I'd like to see you, a silver 4 player stopping a fed tank with your team. It all sounds nice and works on paper, but when things get real you just get confused and rage. I guess you don't even know how to play against him on lane. Darius, for a "juggernaut" has too high base stats. His base ad is 150 without any runes-masteries at level 18... Come on.. oohh, let's not forget the TRUE NOXIAN MIGHT which will grant him a small bonus of 200 AD on level 18. That will make him deal... hmm.. 2000 true damage with his ultimate. His armor and magic resist aint that bad either. He's got a good cc aswell. Enough to catch and burst down adc (except {{champion:67}}). So ye, for me, Darius is a tank, an overloaded, broken champion who deserves to go away from this game.
> [{quoted}](name=SkeltzAlukard,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=000400020000,timestamp=2017-09-07T16:50:22.160+0000) > > That's bullshit. I'd like to see you, a silver 4 player stopping a fed tank with your team. It all sounds nice and works on paper, but when things get real you just get confused and rage. I guess you don't even know how to play against him on lane. Darius, for a "juggernaut" has too high base stats. His base ad is 150 without any runes-masteries at level 18... Come on.. oohh, let's not forget the TRUE NOXIAN MIGHT which will grant him a small bonus of 200 AD on level 18. That will make him deal... hmm.. 2000 true damage with his ultimate. His armor and magic resist aint that bad either. He's got a good cc aswell. Enough to catch and burst down adc (except {{champion:67}}). So ye, for me, Darius is a tank, an overloaded, broken champion who deserves to go away from this game. Just stop, you are the one confused what a tank is. Being difficult to kill is not restricted to tanks, assassins are difficult to kill very frequently, because they dodge your CC and blink about and all, are they tanks? What about any support like Janna, who is difficult to kill because she can tornado you, shield herself, slow you, ult you away. . . is SHE a tank? Seriously, difficult time killing someone a tank makes not.
: if people tell me {{champion:27}} is a tank then so are juggernauts.
> [{quoted}](name=Vape Naysh YalI,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=0020,timestamp=2017-09-07T16:21:33.848+0000) > > if people tell me {{champion:27}} is a tank then so are juggernauts. Except he's actually listed as a tank in the Client and on the Wiki. . . I mean, he IS a tank, Juggernauts are not.
: In theory you could distinguish them, but in practice there's very little difference between tanky champs.
> [{quoted}](name=LesVitesses,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=000a00000002,timestamp=2017-09-07T11:34:24.709+0000) > > In theory you could distinguish them, but in practice there's very little difference between tanky champs. There is huge differences in practice. For details on teamfighting and understanding the distinctions and why these classes play out very differently in practice see the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwE9wPwHCuU
: > _"Anyone can soak a ton of damage and be built with lots of health and resistances it does not make them a tank"_ https://i.imgur.com/MnRltMX.png?1 ok then
> [{quoted}](name=Triistana,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=001b0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-07T11:26:48.876+0000) > > https://i.imgur.com/MnRltMX.png?1 > ok then I mean you can disagree with me, but put a marksman in a full set of defensive gear and go stand on the front lines of a fight, did that make you a tank?
: I mean, you think a **_"Tank"_** is only what Riot tells you. Here's the kicker: Juggernauts **are** tanks. They aren't Mao'Kai, but they're still incredibly tanky and the best part is: **Build em with just damage items and you'll get nowhere**. Why because you **need** Tank items/stats. You can't possibly function without that, and because they have these big life bars, and tanky stats, they are simply by that: **Tanks** Sure, they deal more damage than the _"tanks"_ you speak of, but that doesn't mean they aren't **_tanks_** regardless. What's a tank in a game: A character with a lot of HP/resistances that soaks damage. Go play a Darius game, post the Damage Taken stats and we'll see if you were not **just** doing that. Believe me, it doesn't matter what classes are divided in when the basic premise of **_"Lots of HP, soak damage, be a front line"_** is being fulfilled. Pure tanks are not the only tanks in this game, but I don't expect you to ever understand that so... Popcorn?... {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-popcorn}}
> [{quoted}](name=Triistana,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=001b00010000,timestamp=2017-09-07T10:47:29.315+0000) > > I mean, you think a **_"Tank"_** is only what Riot tells you. > > Here's the kicker: Juggernauts **are** tanks. They aren't Mao'Kai, but they're still incredibly tanky and the best part is: **Build em with just damage items and you'll get nowhere**. Why because you **need** Tank items/stats. You can't possibly function without that, and because they have these big life bars, and tanky stats, they are simply by that: **Tanks** > > Sure, they deal more damage than the _"tanks"_ you speak of, but that doesn't mean they aren't **_tanks_** regardless. > > What's a tank in a game: A character with a lot of HP/resistances that soaks damage. > Go play a Darius game, post the Damage Taken stats and we'll see if you were not **just** doing that. > > Believe me, it doesn't matter what classes are divided in when the basic premise of **_"Lots of HP, soak damage, be a front line"_** is being fulfilled. > > Pure tanks are not the only tanks in this game, but I don't expect you to ever understand that so... > > Popcorn?... > {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-popcorn}} NE, you really DO not understand what a tank is. Anyone can soak a ton of damage and be built with lots of health and resistances it does not make them a tank. Durability is not the same as tanking, gotta have controlling abilities as well. Believe whatever you want, but do not be mad at Juggernauts when they are not "tanking" for your team, because they are not tanks.
Sciela (NA)
: Now, I'm talking the tank builds. Not any damage builds. Blood DK (tank), Paladin in FF is ONLY tank, Reaper in GW2 can be a tank, Wildstar Warrior had a tank set, etc.
> [{quoted}](name=Sciela,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=00080004000100010000,timestamp=2017-09-07T02:32:40.652+0000) > > Now, I'm talking the tank builds. Not any damage builds. Blood DK (tank), Paladin in FF is ONLY tank, Reaper in GW2 can be a tank, Wildstar Warrior had a tank set, etc. The tanks do not do a ton of damage in other games either, that is just a misperception on your part. I understand why you might think it, but it still just is not true. Tanks provide durability and control in fights, in every game, not tons of damage. I cannot make you see this distinction though, so believe whatever you want, but please refrain from telling others your opinion as though it was fact when it just is not.
: The term "tank" is used in many games other than league of legends. In every game I've ever played a juggernaut fits the description of a tank. Plus most of them have some form of CC and/or initiation. If your team does not have a traditional tank often times a juggernaut will actually fill the role just fine to soak up the initial engage and damage from the enemy. TLDR Darius, Jarvan and many other juggernauts fit the description of a tank and it's merely semantics to try and split hairs about the difference between them a "true" tank.
> [{quoted}](name=Morticianjohn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=0018,timestamp=2017-09-07T05:11:38.274+0000) > > The term "tank" is used in many games other than league of legends. In every game I've ever played a juggernaut fits the description of a tank. Plus most of them have some form of CC and/or initiation. If your team does not have a traditional tank often times a juggernaut will actually fill the role just fine to soak up the initial engage and damage from the enemy. > > TLDR Darius, Jarvan and many other juggernauts fit the description of a tank and it's merely semantics to try and split hairs about the difference between them a "true" tank. Odd, every game I have ever played has a tank meaning they force an enemy to focus them, stun and disable the enemies to allow their team to defeat the enemy, or intercept damage for their allies. None of this is what a Juggernaut does. By the way, Jarvan is a Diver, not a Juggernaut. Darius does not lock down enemies, pointed out in several other posts.
: {{champion:31}} :^)
> [{quoted}](name=PePsiLemoNN,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=001d,timestamp=2017-09-07T10:21:07.216+0000) > > {{champion:31}} :^) Not a juggernaut, could be classified as a tank, but lacks the engage tools in the same boat as Skarner. Those two and Olaf are kind of at odds with their tool sets and proper labels, if their were given slightly more defined tools for engaging they would be much easier to classify.
Lõyalty (NA)
: What about {{champion:36}} ? You could say he is a tank and a juggernaut {{champion:31}} is sitting on the fence as well.
> [{quoted}](name=LoyaltyLlama,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2017-09-07T06:10:18.965+0000) > > What about {{champion:36}} ? You could say he is a tank and a juggernaut > > {{champion:31}} is sitting on the fence as well. Mundo is a juggernaut, he builds all defensive items, but he is design to do damage, not to lockdown enemies. Cho Gath is not a Juggernaut, too much Hard crowd control the that lasts too long and is too reliable. Build does not make the tank, you can take a full defensive build on any champion, does not make them a tank.
: So, according to the boards: A Juggernaut with {{item:3047}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3022}} {{item:3065}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3075}} and a huge HP bar is not a tank because it's not Mao'Kai. This is why I can't take posts in this place seriously {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-popcorn}}
> [{quoted}](name=Triistana,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2017-09-07T06:24:20.270+0000) > > So, according to the boards: > > A Juggernaut with {{item:3047}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3022}} {{item:3065}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3075}} and a huge HP bar is not a tank because it's not Mao'Kai. > > This is why I can't take posts in this place seriously > {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-popcorn}} Your choice to not take this, the in game client, the wiki, and the rest of the world seriously. I cannot make you see what you do not want to. That said, a build does not make someone a tank, that is defined by the base stats, passives, and abilities. You could run the proposed build on Ashe, but that does not make her a tank does it?
Fake Masks (EUNE)
: {{champion:122}} and {{champion:72}} are supposedly juggernauts too and they lock you down pretty effectively if you ask me lmao.
> [{quoted}](name=Fake Masks,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=001c,timestamp=2017-09-07T08:32:42.320+0000) > > {{champion:122}} and {{champion:72}} are supposedly juggernauts too and they lock you down pretty effectively if you ask me lmao. Darius is classified as a Juggernaut, Skarner is actually classified as a diver. While I disagree with this classification for Skarner, he does have too much hard CC to be a Juggernaut, so I suppose that it has to do (I would have classified him as a tank, but I assume he does not have enough tools for engaging. . . Even though the rest of his kit is wonderful for the job). Also, Darius does not lock someone down, they get grabbed then dash away. It is not like Blitzcrank, where you grabbed, knocked up and silenced, then after 4 seconds finally get to use a skill again. Darius grab delays your abilities by about a half second at most. Do you see the difference here? Lockdown, cannot do things for a long period of time. Juggernauts do not lockdown your character.
: side note: Divers are not made to initiate. They, like Juggernauts, are good at following up an engage by using the initial confusion of an initiation to dive the carries. They do not work as a back up Tank when no one thought about taking a Tank before the game and went full squishy.
> [{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2017-09-07T01:48:43.282+0000) > > side note: Divers are not made to initiate. They, like Juggernauts, are good at following up an engage by using the initial confusion of an initiation to dive the carries. They do not work as a back up Tank when no one thought about taking a Tank before the game and went full squishy. While I agree with you somewhat here, Warwick, Jarvan IV, and Jax all do have good engage capabilities. They are definitely not as good as dedicated Vanguards, but it is good enough, if the team lacks an actual tank on the team. In such situations they are definitely much more likely than a Vanguard to actually be running to their deaths, but they can at least force a response from the enemy team. The response to a Juggernaut running at you is. . . Can we land a CC and kill it, or do we need to walk away, they do not even have to use summoners or skills.
Sohleks (NA)
: Who cares tbh? They are tanky. Durable. Maybe that is all they meant. They can force you to focus them a lot like cc tanks. Yeah tanks with 4 ccs and better damage reduction and even mobility which juggernauts were christened to not have are more OP yes agreed move along. Can we put this to rest now? It's pointless. Which makes me wonder. Why is it some tanks are allowed to have all that? Some of them with less counterplay than others {{champion:79}} vs. {{champion:14}}
> [{quoted}](name=Sohleks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2017-09-07T02:01:44.549+0000) > > Which makes me wonder. Why is it some tanks are allowed to have all that? It IS a good question.
Sohleks (NA)
: Who cares tbh? They are tanky. Durable. Maybe that is all they meant. They can force you to focus them a lot like cc tanks. Yeah tanks with 4 ccs and better damage reduction and even mobility which juggernauts were christened to not have are more OP yes agreed move along. Can we put this to rest now? It's pointless. Which makes me wonder. Why is it some tanks are allowed to have all that? Some of them with less counterplay than others {{champion:79}} vs. {{champion:14}}
> [{quoted}](name=Sohleks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2017-09-07T02:01:44.549+0000) > > Who cares tbh? They are tanky. Durable. Maybe that is all they meant. They can force you to focus them a lot like cc tanks. Yeah tanks with 4 ccs and better damage reduction and even mobility which juggernauts were christened to not have are more OP yes agreed move along. Can we put this to rest now? It's pointless. The people who care are the ones that cry about tanks being overpowered then naming all Juggernauts as tanks. The people who care are the ones in games expecting their "tank" to be engaging, then raging at the Juggernaut who is actually doing their job and waiting for one of the enemies to make a mistake and walk into a skillshots CC before trying to go in at all. The people who care are the Juggernauts who get flamed for being a terrible tank, when they are not one in the first place. The people who care are every single person who truly misunderstand the concept of what a tank is and play wrong because of their expectations not matching reality. Perception is one of the most important aspects of the game, misperceiving the team comp can often lead to a loss because the likelihood of acting in that perception is greatly increased. Change the way we see things, and the things we see change.
: Hey man, they're both hard as fuck to kill and build practically the same in terms of defense. No one's going to try and correct the usage of "tank" when you're describing a hypothetical teamfight scenario, because they both fulfill largely the same positions.
> [{quoted}](name=FantasySniper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2017-09-07T00:01:56.237+0000) > > Hey man, they're both hard as fuck to kill and build practically the same in terms of defense. > > No one's going to try and correct the usage of "tank" when you're describing a hypothetical teamfight scenario, because they both fulfill largely the same positions. They do not serve the same purpose or position in a teamfights situation at all. Juggernauts do not perform an engage very well, nor do they peel for teammates very well. Basically, from the descriptions, they do not perform the function of a tank at all. Furthermore, Tanks have far more durability because they can disable an enemy for awhile and keep it from doing damage at all. Believe whatever you want though, pretty sure there is enough explanations on this thread if you chose to actually read it. If it makes you happy to believe in something that is incorrect, feel free to continue.
GigglesO (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ðelofasht,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=84EL5FtZ,comment-id=0000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-06T19:31:54.868+0000) > > > Tanks are designed to engage AND soak damage, Woah, you just changed your definition,so which definition is it?
> [{quoted}](name=GigglesO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=84EL5FtZ,comment-id=00000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-07T00:46:26.398+0000) > > Woah, you just changed your definition,so which definition is it? I never changed my definition, it should have been obvious that a tank would CC and soak. All tanks are melee, because otherwise they would be ranged, and thus not tanking by not being in melee range, and then they would be supports. I dunno, it looks like you are trying to deflect a conversation in which you identify you are the incorrect party. Regardless, I am done, I have said what needed to be said already. Choose to believe what you will if you like, it will not make it correct, but if it helps you sleep then go for it.
Terchio (NA)
: ... As do Wardens and Vanguards... CC is still CC... Unless you're implying Juggs take the same damage as divers? In that case, you need to face an actual Juggernaut. The *only* thing a Juggernaut sacrifices compared to a Warden/Vanguard is CC/utility. The defenses are generally increased for them as well. I think you have an inflated opinion of Warden/Vanguard tankiness? Amumu gets one passive as tankiness, akin to Garen's W (plus Garen gets Perseverance...). Maokai gets heals on autoattack occasionally, while Darius gets it on Q occasionally. Sej gets a defensive boon when entering a fight, while Malz gets one, too (Lol, Malz a jugg?!?!). Point is, **these guys are juggies - damage + CC**. They aren't uber tankier! In fact, you wouldn't even think they were if they didn't have *exact opposite response patterns*. You're supposed to hit Juggs to whittle them down and take out their damage before you can reach the enemy squishies (or else he just kills you). Wardens/Vanguards? You survive generally ok until the enemy squishy reaches you, *so never focus that tank*. That's the difference. Both are super uber tanky, because they have defense embedded in their kits which can be built around substancially. Any imaginative difference between them is because *those "tanks" are supporting themselves into not taking damage!*
It is abundantly clear, that contrary to all the evidence and examples provided, you will choose to ignore it so that you can continue to believe what it is you want to. Further input is entirely wasted on responding anymore to you. Good luck to you, may you grow and learn in peace.
Terchio (NA)
: ... As do Wardens and Vanguards... CC is still CC... Unless you're implying Juggs take the same damage as divers? In that case, you need to face an actual Juggernaut. The *only* thing a Juggernaut sacrifices compared to a Warden/Vanguard is CC/utility. The defenses are generally increased for them as well. I think you have an inflated opinion of Warden/Vanguard tankiness? Amumu gets one passive as tankiness, akin to Garen's W (plus Garen gets Perseverance...). Maokai gets heals on autoattack occasionally, while Darius gets it on Q occasionally. Sej gets a defensive boon when entering a fight, while Malz gets one, too (Lol, Malz a jugg?!?!). Point is, **these guys are juggies - damage + CC**. They aren't uber tankier! In fact, you wouldn't even think they were if they didn't have *exact opposite response patterns*. You're supposed to hit Juggs to whittle them down and take out their damage before you can reach the enemy squishies (or else he just kills you). Wardens/Vanguards? You survive generally ok until the enemy squishy reaches you, *so never focus that tank*. That's the difference. Both are super uber tanky, because they have defense embedded in their kits which can be built around substancially. Any imaginative difference between them is because *those "tanks" are supporting themselves into not taking damage!*
> [{quoted}](name=Terchio,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=0008000100010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-07T00:42:07.941+0000) > > ... As do Wardens and Vanguards... CC is still CC... Unless you're implying Juggs take the same damage as divers? In that case, you need to face an actual Juggernaut. The *only* thing a Juggernaut sacrifices compared to a Warden/Vanguard is CC/utility. The defenses are generally increased for them as well. > > I think you have an inflated opinion of Warden/Vanguard tankiness? Amumu gets one passive as tankiness, akin to Garen's W (plus Garen gets Perseverance...). Maokai gets heals on autoattack occasionally, while Darius gets it on Q occasionally. Sej gets a defensive boon when entering a fight, while Malz gets one, too (Lol, Malz a jugg?!?!). Point is, **these guys are juggies - damage + CC**. They aren't uber tankier! In fact, you wouldn't even think they were if they didn't have *exact opposite response patterns*. You're supposed to hit Juggs to whittle them down and take out their damage before you can reach the enemy squishies (or else he just kills you). Wardens/Vanguards? You survive generally ok until the enemy squishy reaches you, *so never focus that tank*. > > That's the difference. Both are super uber tanky, because they have defense embedded in their kits which can be built around substancially. Any imaginative difference between them is because *those "tanks" are supporting themselves into not taking damage!* You are neglecting the damage reduction provided by their crowd control. Stuns, Snares, Taunts, and Displacements make the tank. Also, if you watch pro play, they play teamfights front to back, first targets to take the brunt of damage are the tanks. If Juggernauts were tanks and could played like them, we would see them in pro play frequently, we do not, because they do not serve that purpose at all. The threat response you describe is the same one they give all fighters running or diving at their backline, kill it with crowd control and damage before it kills your teammate, does that make all divers tanks too now?
Sciela (NA)
: Except a lot of juggernauts are basically the same playstyle as tanks in a lot of MMOs. * Darius = Warrior from FFXIV (Rewarded for being aggressive, gain damage as you do damage, lots of sustain by hitting things) <- These guys do as much damage as a DPS * Illaoi = Death Knight from WoW (Tons of lifesteal from abilities, heavy damage, lots of AoE, they both even have a pull of sorts) <- Same * Garen = Paladin from FFXIV (Heavy hitting abilities with decent cooldowns, lots of mitigation and healing) <- Bursty DPS * Yorick = Reaper from GW2 (Incredibly hard hitting but slow, minions are even a thing for both) <- Incredible damage * Morde = Warrior from Wildstar (Gain a shield by hitting things, decent damage) <- The only one here that doesn't match or beat regular DPS Tanks don't have to be hyper team oriented to be tanks, they just have to be good at taking damage and shrugging it off either through mitigation or self healing or shielding. This applies in DnD, this applies in MMOs... and the term is not inaccurate in League.
> [{quoted}](name=Sciela,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=000800040001,timestamp=2017-09-06T23:49:14.294+0000) > > Except a lot of juggernauts are basically the same playstyle as tanks in a lot of MMOs. > > * Darius = Warrior from FFXIV (Rewarded for being aggressive, gain damage as you do damage, lots of sustain by hitting things) &lt;- These guys do as much damage as a DPS > > * Illaoi = Death Knight from WoW (Tons of lifesteal from abilities, heavy damage, lots of AoE, they both even have a pull of sorts) &lt;- Same > > * Garen = Paladin from FFXIV (Heavy hitting abilities with decent cooldowns, lots of mitigation and healing) &lt;- Bursty DPS > > * Yorick = Reaper from GW2 (Incredibly hard hitting but slow, minions are even a thing for both) &lt;- Incredible damage > > * Morde = Warrior from Wildstar (Gain a shield by hitting things, decent damage) &lt;- The only one here that doesn&#x27;t match or beat regular DPS > > Tanks don&#x27;t have to be hyper team oriented to be tanks, they just have to be good at taking damage and shrugging it off either through mitigation or self healing or shielding. This applies in DnD, this applies in MMOs... and the term is not inaccurate in League. None of those classes in other games built to do damage are tanks either, a Paladin in WoW going Retribution is NOT a tank, they need to go Protection to be a tank. A Death Knight in WoW building to do damage is NOT a tank. Tanks in WoW draw threat from mobs and force them to stay on them. Being tanky, capable of soaking damage, does not make them a tank. You seem to not understand that a Ret pally in WoW is not tanking a boss for more than a few seconds, it is getting killed in a hit or two on the quick. Sorry but your understanding of what a tank is seems fundamentally flawed.
Terchio (NA)
: {{champion:58}} {{champion:421}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:59}} , nah, again, you're classifying by your own expectations. Divers simply have the tools to catch up to enemies and rough up an enemy, but then lack the tools to escape if it goes south, hence "Divers". They built him that way, hence the R change. He's classified right, as they made him that way. The thing that makes Olaf unique amongst the group is that he gets more reliable offense out of his defense than most champions get. He builds more defense because of this, but he still fits the diver play pattern. And there is no "tank" play pattern, just as there is no true "fighter" play pattern. Juggs run straight in with limited risk in general, but skirmishers, while somewhat capable of that, tend to wait out a more juicy target, and purposely avoid damage sources unless vulnerable. The reason? *tankiness*.
> [{quoted}](name=Terchio,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=00080001000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-06T23:08:00.759+0000) > > {{champion:58}} {{champion:421}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:59}} , nah, again, you&#x27;re classifying by your own expectations. Divers simply have the tools to catch up to enemies and rough up an enemy, but then lack the tools to escape if it goes south, hence &quot;Divers&quot;. They built him that way, hence the R change. He&#x27;s classified right, as they made him that way. > > The thing that makes Olaf unique amongst the group is that he gets more reliable offense out of his defense than most champions get. He builds more defense because of this, but he still fits the diver play pattern. > > And there is no &quot;tank&quot; play pattern, just as there is no true &quot;fighter&quot; play pattern. Juggs run straight in with limited risk in general, but skirmishers, while somewhat capable of that, tend to wait out a more juicy target, and purposely avoid damage sources unless vulnerable. The reason? *tankiness*. Once again we disagree, but this is not the thread for discussions on divers versus juggernauts, the belong in the same family of class, fighters, and neither have the tools to get out if things go south. Juggernauts do not have the "tankiness" to get out of a bad situation either, if they get stunned, snared, or knocked up they are as likely to die as a diver.
ERONATE (EUNE)
: yeah i really don't care what the terminology is, but when a warwick that has 50% damage reduction (or a darius that won't die due to his q heal in teamfights) isn't considered a tank then im dissapointed in the way you guys classify champions. Tanks don't need cc to be tanks (hence nunu), they just need to be able to soak as much damage as they can and some juggernauts do that very well, to the point where people just start calling them tanks
> [{quoted}](name=Eronate,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-09-06T21:59:10.751+0000) > > yeah i really don&#x27;t care what the terminology is, but when a warwick that has 50% damage reduction (or a darius that won&#x27;t die due to his q heal in teamfights) isn&#x27;t considered a tank then im dissapointed in the way you guys classify champions. > > Tanks don&#x27;t need cc to be tanks (hence nunu), they just need to be able to soak as much damage as they can and some juggernauts do that very well, to the point where people just start calling them tanks Nunu is not classified as a tank either, check in your client in collections > champions > by role > tank. Tanks require hard crowd control capabilities to be considered a tank, (even Singed has it in the throw that becomes a stun if they land in the puddle). It is not how WE classify the champions at all, it is how Riot classifies them, and why. A Juggernaut or Diver simply does not fulfill the role of a tank, with Divers even being more capable of it than Juggernauts because of their utility and some even have defensive steroids.
Terchio (NA)
: Problem is, he can't be juggy because his slow is too reliable. And so, instead they made a decision on whether to update his as Diver or Juggy, and decided to inject his R dash and make him a diver, not reduce his slow. He's a diver. Maybe unorthodox in that he moreso slows his target instead of jumps all over them, but a diver with escape issues, nonetheless. Also, to be honest, you could make the Jugg case with his self-heal. He does defend like that. He would need more defense to make that actually Jugg-worthy, though, and they didn't feel he needed that, which is why they went the Diver route.
> [{quoted}](name=Terchio,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=000800010001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-06T22:29:02.348+0000) > > Problem is, he can&#x27;t be juggy because his slow is too reliable. And so, instead they made a decision on whether to update his as Diver or Juggy, and decided to inject his R dash and make him a diver, not reduce his slow. > > He&#x27;s a diver. Maybe unorthodox in that he moreso slows his target instead of jumps all over them, but a diver with escape issues, nonetheless. > > Also, to be honest, you could make the Jugg case with his self-heal. He does defend like that. He would need more defense to make that actually Jugg-worthy, though, and they didn&#x27;t feel he needed that, which is why they went the Diver route. He builds less damage than the other Divers too, my case stands as is, he (a singular champion out of the Diver classifaction) is misclassified. Does not change my position on Juggernauts not being tanks, even most divers make better tanks than Juggernauts, being quite capable of engaging and frequently having a defensive steroid, like Jax, Irelia's R (healing), Camille's passive, Fiora's immense healing with Ult, Warwick's natural sustain and R. . . the list goes on and on. Olaf actually is kind of an exception here again, he's poor at engaging, just running at an enemy even while unstoppable, is a poor engage tool.
: He's classified as a Diver right now.
> [{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE3REsEA,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2017-09-06T22:18:31.434+0000) > > He&#x27;s classified as a Diver right now. You are right, Olaf is currently not been updated by the Wiki, he's not a diver though. He doesn't have a dash, divers are characterzied by that according to the definitions provided. I assumed in correctly by looking at the definitions of the classifications and understanding of his abilities.
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Ðelofasht

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