Leyin (EUW)
: yeah me too, sure i prefer void, but noxus is still great. Reav3 will release after Urgot rework the 2 champs that get a rework between pre season 8 and mid season 8 maybe it is Swain , but I think nunu and morder will be before swain so.... I hope with you guys ^^
> [{quoted}](name=KNTE Lukas,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=EuKjLGsh,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-06T17:35:59.254+0000) > > yeah me too, sure i prefer void, but noxus is still great. Reav3 will release after Urgot rework the 2 champs that get a rework between pre season 8 and mid season 8 maybe it is Swain , but I think nunu and morder will be before swain so.... I hope with you guys ^^ Muahahahahaha
Vekkna (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=20thCenturyFaux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lwbYeTWi,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-05-17T20:32:34.552+0000) > > Happy to give context. Our goal here is to improve the early level laning experience against Zyra without harming her experience or changing her play later in the game. It's easy to have the changes sunset as Zyra gains levels, the challenge is making 1 hit plants work for Zyra in lane from levels 1 to 5. Then nerf the spawn rate on her passive. The 1-hit plants won't work. > The main controls on Zyra's plants are fun, power, and frustration -- getting a good exchange rate. If we can make plants less frustrating for the enemy, we can get more power and fun. The same HP that lets plants survive at all lategame makes fighting them in lane crazy. Fixing this bit of derp buys us a fair bit. Like everyone has said since this rework was announced, the **frustration** to both the enemy and the Zyra player is in the passive RNG. You're addressing the enemy frustration by making the plants irrelevant but without acknowledging the existing frustration to Zyra players. If anything, making the plants die in one hit just compounds the frustration. > So what do we buy? Plant damage! Plants are core to Zyra's identity and we've just made them cheaper. We spend that power back into the plant system, giving Zyra a bigger garden and so conditionally more damage-- about 50% more plants overall in lane. The linked article is missing that bit of the changes -- Garden of Thorns is much more likely to spawn two seeds at once when Zyra is low level. You're saying "damage" but describing RNG. We rely on the player-controlled W seeds to function, and those plants now die in one hit. Those plants aren't doing more damage, they're doing less (or none). > For Zyra, it's functionally equivalent to making the plants squisher and more dangerous. For enemies, it lets them play too -- the plant damage starts higher and it's more often smart to fight them some. Balance wise, our intent is to keep her at current power levels, so further changes are likely to be along those lines. How are the plants more dangerous? The AI nerf wasn't reverted. The damage and scaling weren't changed on the PBE. So what are you talking about when you say "plant damage starts higher?" Other concerns: 1) **We want more access to W seeds, not RNG** 2) Are you going to revert the Q mana cost if we have to spam it to spawn 1-hit plants? 3) Is the plant health on R passive or only for enraged plants? 4) Will it be possible for Zyra to function in the presence of a damage aura (eg Hec, Cinder, etc)? 5) The goal of these changes was supposed to be accomplished with the 50% nerf to plant duration in the rework. If they die in one hit, what's the justification for a 5-7.5 second duration instead of flat 10 second duration?
In no particular order: The R plant Health bonus applies to all plants once R is learned. Q mana cost is something we've got our eye on, that's decently likely to change. You're right that the pressure to reduce duration in lane is gone, only restricting factor left would be lategame zoning with Rylais and Liandry. Could see this being a good place to buff solo lane Zyra since plant duration in lane would mainly benefit minion control. Higher plant damage comes from there being more when they spawn. Typically this is most impactful when spawning several plants at once. W seeds are placed at times where the opponent is under the highest pressure, and so least able to attack, making Health less important for them. Unless she's laning against the damage aura that won't change at all. Laning against it, aoe periodic does partial damage to plants so it'd depend on how quickly it ticks.
: Do you have any value scale for the passive's change ?
> [{quoted}](name=Kaori Mıyazono,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lwbYeTWi,comment-id=00050002,timestamp=2017-05-17T21:10:11.441+0000) > > Do you have any value scale for the passive's change ? From levels 1-5, the passive will spawn two seeds (very) roughly about 1.5x as often. From levels 6-10, around half that. It varies a ton circumstantially, that's for the overall output.
LankPants (OCE)
: @Meddler, Could we get some Context on the Zyra Changes on the PBE?
Happy to give context. Our goal here is to improve the early level laning experience against Zyra without harming her experience or changing her play later in the game. It's easy to have the changes sunset as Zyra gains levels, the challenge is making 1 hit plants work for Zyra in lane from levels 1 to 5. The main controls on Zyra's plants are fun, power, and frustration -- getting a good exchange rate. If we can make plants less frustrating for the enemy, we can get more power and fun. The same HP that lets plants survive at all lategame makes fighting them in lane crazy. Fixing this bit of derp buys us a fair bit. So what do we buy? Plant damage! Plants are core to Zyra's identity and we've just made them cheaper. We spend that power back into the plant system, giving Zyra a bigger garden and so conditionally more damage-- about 50% more plants overall in lane. The linked article is missing that bit of the changes -- Garden of Thorns is much more likely to spawn two seeds at once when Zyra is low level. For Zyra, it's functionally equivalent to making the plants squisher and more dangerous. For enemies, it lets them play too -- the plant damage starts higher and it's more often smart to fight them some. Balance wise, our intent is to keep her at current power levels, so further changes are likely to be along those lines.
: AD Shaco seems very underwhelming now. What is the general consensus with him? I feel like you already nerfed his early game, then you changed the jungle and made it harder for single clearers like Shaco?
> [{quoted}](name=Gone Away,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sTYErWaV,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-11-23T21:05:02.475+0000) > > AD Shaco seems very underwhelming now. What is the general consensus with him? I feel like you already nerfed his early game, then you changed the jungle and made it harder for single clearers like Shaco? We're keeping an eye on the winrate of AD vs AP, currently still in the gathering numbers phase of that exploration. At the moment it looks like AP is a bit stronger than AD, but some of the sample sizes are pretty small and Shaco numbers are themselves a bit weird --- he's a champion overwhelmingly favored by people who've mastered him, he's really sensitive to jungle changes, etc. We'll probably have some balance adjustments for him in the patch after 6.24, but it's hard to say their precise nature until we get clear data.
: Will shaco receive any buffs in the future even if they are atleast small? (shaco main here)
> [{quoted}](name=Roit Gums,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=Rdqfw0p4,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-11-09T19:51:10.271+0000) > > Will shaco receive any buffs in the future even if they are atleast small? (shaco main here) If it does turn out that he's as weak as some folks fear after the dust settles, we'd wanna buff him. One suggestion I saw that I thought was pretty cool was having his E deal phys damage if he has more AD than AP to give him better scaling through better pen options. If it does turn out that it's just raw numbers he needs, that'd be even simpler. What we really need is time for the dust to settle. Balance is gonna be pretty wild west on the first patch; it's difficult to predict what the removal of pink wards will do for the power of stealth characters like Shaco or how much power his new tricks are worth. We can math out what his damage before and after looks like, but to get a complete power level picture we need to see him on the live servers.
HollowMimic (EUNE)
: Thank you buddy. Just tried to cover most concerns through constructive conversation. (plz dont ask my age :P)
> [{quoted}](name=HollowMimic,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ietEMFIk,comment-id=000000000002000100010000,timestamp=2016-10-28T21:58:41.401+0000) > > Thank you buddy. > > Just tried to cover most concerns through constructive conversation. > > (plz dont ask my age :P) Your efforts are super appreciated here, too -- if players are concerned, usually it's something we're also concerned about, and threads like this are a great opportunity to share what we've got
HollowMimic (EUNE)
: Thank you for your answer Faux. **However, wouldn't that issue (not realising when the gas landed) just add to the skill gap for someone playing Shaco?** Since there is so much diversity among champions, people discover what playstyle fits them most or try to adjust their playstyle to the champion they like. Thus, learning a hard but unique champion might be what someone wishes to do. And with so many champions in the game, it's not like a player will just give up if he gets frustrated from not managing to play with Shaco. He/she will either give up on him or practice harder. All in all, it doesn't matter how hard it is to learn a champion but how rewarding is when you do (I've learned that from one-trick-ponies with high skill champions). But (only from what I've seen) the new Shaco doesn't seem rewarding enough for his already high-skill gap. As for the practical point, I wouldn't call the triangle a place of safety since the boxes last for so little and all of them die when one of them gets destroyed. At least with the gas, the person would be (sort of) paralyzed and Shaco had more time to escape. Of course all of this is theoretical. Maybe there's sth that we all miss because we haven't played with him yet. Whatever the case is, I wish for a satisfying result for the whole rework, when it goes live. PS. Also, what ShadeW said. Pinkward has a nice video about it (not a rant); maybe you can gather some info from it.
The skill gap would grow, to be sure, but it's much harder to grow mastery on a character when the game's not giving you good feedback on when your ult was working well or not. Further, being able to make good use of the box triangle's power has its own brand of mastery -- if players really struggle to make good use of it we'd of course revisit, and so far many players do seem to be able to use it well, which makes sense because it does a lot of damage and can deny quite a large area -- if it dies in a chokepoint it'll get some work done. There was a bug on PBE for a bit where if someone attacked one of the mini-boxes with a very small amount of damage at a certain level range it would one-shot all three, so that may well have been contributing to perceptions they die instantly? If the R boxes need more HP or duration they'll get it, they can be tuned individually. That's rather the point of Shaco's mini-rework -- adding the tools we need to be able to tune the character properly. At this point, we have levers we can use to adjust either his burst or dps at any phase of the game. It'll make balancing him much easier. Pinkward's video was certainly interesting, and his main concerns were with power level; generally speaking, most folks who are worried seem to be worried about power level. Naturally so are we, and while Shaco mains probably won't worry about the potential world where he releases too strong, that is a very real possibility too -- the preseason is going to do all sorts of spicy disruption to the game, and balance will certainly be a stranger place for the first patches afterward.
ff4sk (NA)
: Not to sound like I'm flaming you or anything but the whole box thing seems stupid and feels like just a gimmick to use as a reason to nerf shaco further. shaco didn't need gimmicks, he was already a tricky champion to master, what we wanted was a buff to his late game and some toning to his early so he can be healthy early and stay viable late game. Instead we got nerfs to his damage across the board on all his abilities making his early insanely harsh and his scaling is so weak that he's now weaker late game on pbe than he is on live servers. Shaco is currently so versatile with tons of possible builds you can go, pbe shaco looks like a cruel attempt to cripple all of shaco's different play styles to force him into an AP role. I understand that his early may have been slightly oppressive but seriously these nerfs are just brutal. I don't even know if he can be played anything besides AP anymore.
If he releases too weak, we'll be able to buff him. PBE's an awesome place but it's not a good balance bellweather -- there's too many factors warping matchmaking and game outcomes for it to be meaningful in that regard. We certainly don't intend to force Shaco into any specific role, and in fact went out of our way to support different builds, haha. Worried he's gonna be weak when he comes out? We hear you and if he needs buff he'll get em. Some folks seem to be worried that if he does end up being weak on release that we'd leave him numerically weak forever, which, uhhh... not really sure why we'd put a bunch of work into him and then do that xD
Emojay (NA)
: Yes please
> [{quoted}](name=Emojay,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ietEMFIk,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-10-28T07:15:00.699+0000) > > Yes please We tried something very close to this first, as it happens! There's a devil in the details, however -- AE hard CC is a very powerful effect, and it's important whoever's inflicting it can appreciate when it happens. With nearby JitBs, Shaco generates hard CC off of himself, but its more appreciable -- enemies draw closer to the boxes little by little and there's a clear line when it'll be triggered. Far away JitBs do have some issues here, of course. When the CC is attached to clone detonate, it's a lot muddier. We found in testing that while it's easy to see when the clone dies, it's pretty tough to track when the clone _will_ die -- enemies can swap focus off of it when they figure out it's fake, Shaco can get distracted by someone finding his real self, etc. That often resulted in opponents seeing the cool ae CC detonate play and Shaco himself being barely aware it had happened. The box triangle is a direct evolution from that -- the detonate sets up the JitBs, the JitBs themselves are always clear to Shaco in what they're doing. It's not as immediately impactful as a CC detonate, but it allows Shaco a place of safety to retreat to and ended up creating more consistently interesting plays. It's also got some minor teaching value for novice Shacos -- box triangle was strong well before it was a meme xD
: {{champion:35}} Can you add AP Scaling to Shaco's Q? I personally enjoy AP shaco But not AD shaco. AP Shaco feels like he got not enough DMG
> [{quoted}](name=SlashStriker,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=MrdMGLpj,comment-id=00da,timestamp=2016-10-05T21:57:20.515+0000) > > {{champion:35}} Can you add AP Scaling to Shaco's Q? I personally enjoy AP shaco But not AD shaco. AP Shaco feels like he got not enough DMG When thinking about how to handle AP Shaco, this is one of the first things we looked at. It rewards AP Shaco for putting himself in danger, while taking pressure off the E since it's no longer the only game in town for him. No guarantees, but I'd say it's pretty likely we'll end up with some kind of AP ratio on Q.
InTheory (EUW)
: ***
The question as I understood it was about the snapback delay on W -- that's the delay I was referring to ^^
: How about making lb able to use her clone more? Just imagine the trickery one could pull off if her clone could use the w ability ( which would cause no dmg ofc) Also, what about a nice silence on her q? ;)
We're definitely exploring more clone mechanics for LeBlanc, they're pretty fun and very LeBlanc-y. We're very unlikely to do silence on Q -- one of the main aims of the project is to make sure opponents of assassins have time to play too, preventing them from casting spells is a bit counter-productive xD
Takanuva (NA)
: Hey 20Cent! just logged on about a question. you had compared leblanc as one of three of having the highest potential of deceit and trickery (the other two being shaco and rengar), and i was kinda wondering what kind of "deceit" shaco would have. i always liked how shaco was a pretty high minion mancer-esque champ like heimer or zyra, but yeah. and if its too early to tell thats fine. also, would tricksters hourglass ever come back to league? if not as an item, i wouldnt mind it as an ability on shaco. :o) oh yeah, ever done shaco support? its hella fun {{champion:35}} {{summoner:3}} {{summoner:14}} : {{item:2301}} , {{item:3020}} , {{item:3152}} , {{item:3157}} , {{item:3001}} , {{item:3089}} . also, items like {{item:3030}} , {{item:3165}} , and {{item:3060}} are also legit. :o)
Trickster's might come back as part of a special mode, but I doubt it'd make it into the base game -- there are a lot of subtle problems with it long term unfortunately (that's one of the big reasons LB didn't end up with it). I have indeed played many many games as support Shaco ^^
: How much of a delay are we talking? Like 0.5 seconds?
It's something we're still adjusting, but currently it's less than that
: This is a really great change! It will be visible to the LB player too, right?
: which is nice - but how much has an already experienced LeBlanc player to learn if he is trying to play the "new" LeBlanc?
Mainly just handling having more combo options (which she has now -- muahahaha) plus whatever learning the deception tool requires.
: Regarding S4, When leblanc had silence, is she going to be receiving any channel inturrptions, for things like fiddles heal/ult, katarina ults etc? Also the .5 Snap back would hurt her until she gets used to it. Especially in the Ahri Leblanc and zed match up mid. Where Ahri is no longer able to inturrpt her W or mimic R. But that means if leblanc just W's for waveclear skilled players will easily try to capatilize on her pre 6 or post 6 ult is down since she won't immediately be able to return to her starting location. Please consider not giving her a .5 snapback Nerf. Higher elo Ahri's and Zeds will eat her alive now. Thank you. I personally enjoy the Leblanc Zed and Ahri matchups between the 3 And leblanc seems like she will fall short with the .5 snapback change. At least consider her skill match ups in higher elo, before going through with this.
Probably not on the channel interruptions -- it doesn't make as much thematic sense as it does for Kassadin etc and she's got so many tools it's hard to justify something that specialized. Good eye on the Zed/Ahri lane matchups! We found the same results. LeBlanc will be getting some lane phase love to make up for it -- making her as strong as her opponent is easy to do, making her strength fair is the work of this update.
: Where will her skill floor be though? Right now, she needs a lot of games until someone can take her into ranked.
We're doing our best there, but yeah, it's likely she'll still need a lot of games before ranked xD
Sukazu (EUW)
: About the delay on snapback, one of the huge worries from the leblanc community likely is that we saw what has been done to zed. Giving it, is a huge commitment, that likely will be tweaked but not removed. The thing is, wether was it when zed was really strong, or now that he is really weak, that delay always felt bad. We do understand of course that adding a delay makes things easier to balance, but when we think about WHY it makes things easier to balance (it simply removes possibilities, which in turn reduce the skill cap which in turn would makes things easier to balance, that was the main argument to add the 5 skills cap on ryze passive am I correct ?) we bounce on the idea that we do not want it. Let's look at the ahri zed match up, without the delay, when ahri is ulted, she has a **lot** of possible decisions to make which she has to choose form, and zed is fully aware of that, and will try to deceive her. First case, she ult back to tower, and count on the fact that zed will think she wants to charm under tower, to charm him at his original location Second case, she does the same, but charm behind her because she thinks zed will stay Third case, she doesn't try to charm but focus on dodging shurikens with the first dash and set up the q (zed r back to dodge) into e at the original location and use second dash to reposition the return etc etc that's just few exemple but there is a tons of possible developpement for ahri there, and there is a beautifull mind game going on on "I know that he knows I know", and how the way you played before that influenced the way the ennemy think and so on. Now look at current zed in the same match up, the only correct choice for ahri is to dash back and charm him with 100% hit chance when she is ulted. Knowing that zed just doesn't do it. that's it. There is also the fact that zed r is an ulti which isn't used often while while leblanc w is used much more often leading in much more situations that would be removed, and the fact that let's say we give 0,3 sec delay for the snapback, does that mean she can w r w instant as the delay occur during the second dash ? if yes it doesn't change the "problem" showcased in the exemple given. and if it's longer to account for the possible second dash, she is hyper fucked for any other use of w. I wrote a lot more than I thought about the first part, I apologize for that not being native, and as for your question, yes you got that right. "We’re trying things like concealing information about LeBlanc or giving false information about her to the enemy." sounded to me like it would be done by the game and not the player. That's pretty much the wording, "we're concealing information about leblanc" and not "we're giving leblanc more ways to actively deceive her opponents".
The ability to dash in for damage, then instantly snap out just isn't fair. There's a reason these assassin updates are including more time for the opponent to act. Going from being able to totally negate the enemy's action to the enemy being able to cast one spell is a change you'll be able to feel, but it's absolutely necessary for the health of these characters. Awesome mindgames shouldn't come at the price of an unfair regular game. As you said, we can always adjust it -- if LeBlanc isn't good enough at high elo, we can reduce the delay easily. There's also the new deception tool -- whatever it will be, it's meant to help LeBlanc survive during this period and it needs to be able to do that job -- and LeBlanc's cast times will often cover up the delay anyway (contrasted to Zed's instant E) so it's unlikely to be felt as keenly as Zed's. For your last question, we're definitely going to give LeBlanc more ways to actively deceive her opponents ^^
SCP 1762 (NA)
: Could you also give it a range indicator for how far away you need to be to break it? Like with Morg ult?
Checö (EUW)
: Hello, a fellow LeBlanc main here. I'm mainly concerned about her identity, especially her dualism (all of her abilities consist of two parts, including her passive). My main question is: Will you change her Distortion (W) drastically? I think her mobility and ability to deceive the opponent is one of the cores of her identity.
We agree. The only thing we're thinking about changing on Distortion is adding a tiny delay before you can snap back after dashing.
Sukazu (EUW)
: The problem I have is the impression you give is mostly, "we're gonna adaptate leblanc to low elo". First paragraph is a lot of words just to say we're gonna slow it down even more than what we did to her w so people that don't understand the game can see what happends, (even tho the combo showcased by the first paragraph, which is second rate in lane for when you don't have mimic on w to go for the r q w, and isn't used in siege assassination as it's usually wqre, is already slow enough. "To be deceived, you have to have enough time to understand what’s happening", double dashing almost takes 2 seconds and to that you have to add q e to successfully remove a target without rm, In what world seing someone fly at you at low speed for 2 seconds in a straight line, not enough time to understand what's going on ?) but don't worry we'll add some deceiving stuffs that won't works in high elo past the few weeks. Second paragraph, and I insist on that being first impressions, and that without seeing what you have in minds will probably be untrue, but once again that : "it’s also automatic and unreliable. We’re trying things like concealing information about LeBlanc or giving false information about her to the enemy." really sounds like "micromanaging the clone isn't done by low elos, let's the game do the work for them". I think that's totally the wrong path to take, the fact that leblanc clone is automatic, the fact that there is a logic to it, is what allows you to play with the mind of you opponents. You're saying that it's automatic as if real leblanc players, the one that will be touched by this change, weren't moving the clone and herself accordingly to IA behavior of the clone, and to counter that "automaticness" you're going to make the game automatically deceive the ennemies by adding stuffs not decided by the player, that doesn't really makes sense to me and tends to enlight the first point I was making. Third paragraph, that's too vague to commentate on, but usually the job of "ensuring [champions] brings unique strengths to her team" is well done in past reworks so I have some trust in that, nuanced by the wrong directions taken in this rework **to my understanding**
I get where you're coming from with those worries and I think we've got you covered. A little example -- we're almost certainly giving the W speed back xD We're looking at all elos of course, but we're not focusing on any one. At the moment it looks like LeBlanc will have a higher skill ceiling than before, and it used to be pretty damn high. This typically means the character is quite powerful at high elos, and LeBlanc was already very powerful there. That instability is one of the reasons we've got the tiny delay on W snapback. It mainly impacts high elo -- we can adjust the delay if we need to buff her at diamond+ or nerf her there or etc. I think I understand what you mean about the clone being controllable etc, this might be a term definition thing? We're talking/thinking about letting LeBlanc have more active control over when and how the deceptions occur -- it sounds like you're mainly worried about us making the deception less controllable, have I got that right? edit -- by "automatic" I meant how it pops at 40% Health, nothing to do with alt-clicking vs AI or etc
: Not quite sure how I feel about this... I mean the adjustments to the passive sound nice, concealing or giving false information to the enemy. But the changes to the W dont sound too great. I get you're trying to give the enemy more time to react to assasins burst combos, but her snapback is just simply her. However, you guys haven't let me down with reworks lately, so I'll trust and wait. I do feel she should receive some better waveclear as well though.
We're also talking about a tiny amount of time -- this change is mainly aimed at high diamond players and above. Most folks will probably notice it when waveclearing but never feel it in a fight. And agreed, W+RW having to carry all the waveclear burden is pretty weird.
: The most frustrating thing about Le Blanc is her Q being a point-and-click nuke IMO. Many times when laning as Quinn I have managed to interrupt her dash with my Vault to find out she still one-shots me with Q+RQ anyways and making my attempts at outplaying her feel completely pointless. I feel like if I manage to dodge/interrupt her "main" spell I should be rewarded somehow, yet this is not the case presently. How does Riot feel about this? Are you looking to change her Q in any way?
Yeah, it's pretty lame -- we think the big problem there is how much of LeBlanc's damage comes out in the first 0.5s~ of the fight. We don't think it's likely we'll make Q a skillshot -- LB has to dash in and around creeps a lot and her E already does that. We're mainly looking at ways to delay LeBlanc's damage a bit so you have a little time to do your own stuff.
Tantarboy (EUNE)
: If her E remains unchanged can you improve its hitbox? It can hit from some weird angles sometimes.
> [{quoted}](name=Tantarboy,realm=EUNE,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=MfXnx8VF,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-08-10T20:49:07.561+0000) > > If her E remains unchanged can you improve its hitbox? It can hit from some weird angles sometimes. Hmm, that's worth a look. I'll check it out on my machine; are there videos/screenshots of examples I can look at?
: are you going to replace any spell completely?
> [{quoted}](name=Michael Sykes,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=MfXnx8VF,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2016-08-10T21:07:57.687+0000) > > are you going to replace any spell completely? I don't think so, but it's hard to say for sure. We're more likely to move some secondary elements around, Q mark for example.
: Will you guys shift her power budget around so her W doesn't consume most of it since its a double gap closer, her primary burst tool and wave clear spell
> [{quoted}](name=Spideraxe,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=MfXnx8VF,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-08-10T20:47:01.114+0000) > > Will you guys shift her power budget around so her W doesn't consume most of it since its a double gap closer, her primary burst tool and wave clear spell Yeah, I think that's pretty likely. Not sure exactly how, but there's a lot of eggs in that basket currently. If Q or E could help with waveclear somehow it'd make life a lot easier.
: Aw LB, she is really fun. Please preserve the high skill cap and flashy plays/jukes. I love playing and seeing high elo players (FAKER) Play and wreck using LB. I'm up for making her kit more confusing/complicated. However please dont remeve her damage. I'm having a bad feeling that you're gonna replace her e with a clone creating ability (NOVA E). LB is fun because she is pretty high skilled, and does fine in most matchups. She sucks late game, so maby with some added utlity she'll become better in that area. Good luck, I'm looking forward to this one the most (Since I actually play LB, not so much TALON or RENGAR). I dont like when anyone gets deleted in a second, through talon, rengar or LB. But I think combos are still important to assassins. Ensure that all of them actually become MORE interesting to play (not just cram their kits full of bullshit). Cheers ! EDIT: > A Zed-style tiny delay between W dash end and W snapback enabled is pretty likely to show up. I dont know about this. the fake "LOCKOUT" mechanic or global cooldown is not that good. Please consider keeping this.
Agreed with most of this, we want to keep her skillcap high and the odds are good we'll end up raising it. The damage needs to stay so she can get that awesome "push em through the moon door" moment of visceral triumph, it's just not all going to be in the first fraction of a second. And we're definitely not replacing the E, that spell is actually pretty neat xD
Vanjie (NA)
: Are you planning on giving LB a makeover? I feel like her model is so outdated . . . . and she has so much potential . . . I also would love to see a trickster glass like passive on her. :D It is so much fun.
> [{quoted}](name=Berfu,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=MfXnx8VF,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-08-10T20:44:19.273+0000) > > Are you planning on giving LB a makeover? I feel like her model is so outdated . . . . and she has so much potential . . . > > I also would love to see a trickster glass like passive on her. :D It is so much fun. We're not planning to do any model changes, but we do intend to go over her spells' VFX. As for Trickster's glass, oh man that ability is so much fun. We definitely thought about it (specifically, a version where LB and her ally swapped appearances), but there are a lot of problems with it too -- the gameplay may not hold up well over time, and it was working in Black Market Brawlers but it would require constant maintenance to keep it working long term. I don't think we're likely to do Trickster's Glass on LeBlanc.
Solideus (EUNE)
: At first I was a bit surprised that LeBlanc is one of the "Big 4", but I guess it makes sense if Shaco, Evelynn and Akali rather will be future VGU projects. Would you guess she might end up the champion with the lowest scope among the four? I get the feeling that might be the case somehow.
> [{quoted}](name=Solideus,realm=EUNE,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=MfXnx8VF,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2016-08-10T20:51:35.073+0000) > > At first I was a bit surprised that LeBlanc is one of the "Big 4", but I guess it makes sense if Shaco, Evelynn and Akali rather will be future VGU projects. > Would you guess she might end up the champion with the lowest scope among the four? I get the feeling that might be the case somehow. Actually it looks like she'll be pretty average scope -- she's probably going to get new VFX on her base skin's spells whether or not we change them.
  Rioter Comments
: Yasuo's windwall vs Zilean's Q is completely unfair
This would be a bug, but I can't get it to happen on my test rig. Is there anything to it other than "bomb on ground, Yasuo windwalls the bomb" ?
Mandaari (NA)
: What happens if her Q or E hit multiple champions? Would it prioritize already-targeted champions?
hopeful4 (EUNE)
: Can you please tell me if you have plans on making Zyra able to control her plants? It gets pretty frustrating when the plants are hitting different target from the one you want and it also fits thematically to be able to micro them
Currently we're playing with hitting Q and E on enemy champs giving the same plant commands that her autoattack does.
: Personally, I wouldn't use the word "tolerate" because it kinda seems negative, and some players just like to play her here. But as a Zyra main, I would say Zyra in her current state is definitely more enjoyable when you play her in the botlane than playing her in the midlane because it makes Zyra's inherent weaknesses less obvious for most players and it allows you to have more room and control during the laning phase or in teamfights, being only a secondary threat. They don't really tolerate her here, they're just playing her here because that's more effective and enjoyable due to her kit favoring it. In this sense, we don't "tolerate" her being played bot, we're "forced" to recognize her being more effective here in her current state. A poll has been made yesterday on Reddit, with ~7000 votes. http://strawpoll.me/7114736/r And I would say this poll is actually quite accurate, like you can see, the midlane is in majority ( 66% ) but there's still quite a fanbase for the support role ( 34% ). If you disregard it as being the usual "circlejerk" from Reddit, then it might be interesting to have a poll available in your client ? I would say that Zyra is definitely the champion worth the effort given her fanbase and the state she's been in during these 3 years, and this way you would have the direct answer to what players want. Just don't use ingame statistics as a reliable source for your decision, given the client itself heavily favors Zyra support ( with the recommended items, with the ranked queue making MID/Support heavily favoring the support pick etc..) and Zyra's current state being more enjoyable and optimal in support. I would have no problem if she's equally as strong mid and support, but I doubt you or anyone would be able to reach this perfect balance. Thus, when nerfs come around afterwards if her support style is too strong, her mid potential will probably be the one to suffer the most from these nerfs because you will focus on her supporting style, like it's been the case during these 3 years and we will just be going full circle until the next time. That's imo what Zyra players are most afraid of. You seem confident to deliver a viable mid Zyra once this update drops, but what about afterwards ? Will she be as viable mid once nerfs knock her doors and you will solely balance her for support ? Zyra players are interested in the long run, and during the last 3 years, we've been told repeatedly that Zyra's mid potential wouldn't be affected when it ultimately got heavily affected. You can understand why most Zyra mid players are skeptical despite you saying she will be a viable mid **at the release**. Like you said yourself, Zyra will ALWAYS find her place into the botlane due to her utility, what other mages have a slow, a snare, a knock up in their kits ? So, even if she's balanced around mid, she will surely find her place in support. That's why balancing her for mid but monitoring her support potential to make sure she's not too strong, and eventually tweak the numbers or ratios etc... would benefit more Zyra imo, given she isn't played like a support, she's played like a mage striving for lane dominance regardless of the lane.
Update here! We’ve done some research and had a fair number of internal discussions on the topic, and we wanted to post about changes in our thinking. The #1 clearest thing that’s come from the conversation is that there’s a lot of passion about where Zyra wants to go and everyone wants the freedom to make their own way on the rift, without feeling like someone's telling them what lane they should be in. To that end, we think it isn’t smart to aim balance toward a specific lane. We feel we should update Zyra as a whole, not any given role for her. We want to improve the experience of playing Zyra without mind toward lane. When we update a champion, we try to preserve what’s cool and unique about a character—a lot of what makes Zyra cool and unique has found success in bottom lane and we don’t want to remove it. That’s always been our aim; extending that to balance philosophy is a bridge too far. In the end, that’s what these direction threads are meant for—to catch stuff like this and fix it. We’ve seen the poll and are doing our own surveys and studies etc, and the main lesson from them is that both roles have lots of players. Our goals for the update are to make Zyra feel more like a plant mage, enhance her strategic role as a counter-initiate mage, and help make her more fun. There’s nothing in there about lane, and it’s not our intent to tell either group where they should or shouldn’t play. Going forward, we’re putting her in more midlane tests and making sure we don’t leave a lane behind.
: The problem is that she can be an extremely good support while not being a good midlaner at all because the expectations on both roles aren't the same at all. For example, Zyra's current state is heavily favoring her agressive potential, but heavily lacks survivability and defensive potential. And that's why she's "fine" as a support but make her not viable in midlane, because having another one with you, the ADC, allow you to "bypass" this weakness. That's why most people are concerned with their intent to focus on support, focusing only on support and monitoring the midlane potential only on the damage / push advantage side won't change the core problem in her kit atm.
There's some people here saying a lot of the Zyra support players only _tolerate_ her being support and play her there because she's strong, rather than actually wanting her there--that's an interesting perspective. One of the things we're definitely going to do is look into how many people feel that way--if that ends up being the case for most Zyra support players, I think we'd want to reconsider what role we balance for. Our plan was to make her viable mid and balance around support, so we wouldn't be happy if she was a weak midlaner. What's more, given her strengths -- zone control, CC, damage etc -- most anything we give her will be good in both lanes. She's a mage who goes bottom lane, as opposed to someone like Nami or Sona -- we haven't considered "me + a friend" type abilities for her, we feel they'd be wrong for her playstyle and character.
: I just wanted to confirm something. Whether you balance her for support or mid, you are making sure she is somewhat decent in both roles? As a zyra main I love playing her both mid and sup and don't want to see either taken away completely.
Yep! We want her to be viable in both roles.
: 20thCenturyFaux if you could answer this question, that'd be great. I'm a support Zyra main and have played her nonstop in every ranked game. The thing I like about her the most is that she can block skill shots with her plants. It's a challenge to do so especially with Thresh and Blitz hooks flying around, but I feel it's very rewarding when I am able to do it correctly. Will Zyra be retaining that part of her kit with the same degree of effectiveness?
: ***
Some kind of health scaling as the plants reach lategame is pretty likely. Lane's a different beast than teamfights, as we increase the importance of plants we need to make sure they can exist for a while lategame.
Casri (EUW)
: I like the sound of everything except **this**: > [{quoted}](name=20thCenturyFaux,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=xVQr7ihf,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-03-18T01:01:18.351+0000) We’re balancing her for the support role, As a Zyra main (with a high preference for mid lane) this worries me. I was under the impression that Zyra was being reworked as a solo-lane mage like all the other reworks, and as she was originally designed; heck I would even rather she was balanced around jungle than support... Support Zyra is fun, but gimmicky and way less compelling thematically (establishing her own personal garden in mid rather than being some ADC's stooge). This makes me feel like you guys just perceive the threat of Zyra-support becoming too strong through Zyra-mid changes. Her mid and support share the same strengths- this is well known, but in a duo lane her inherent weaknesses (2nd most squishy and most immobile champion) are less pronounced as she is **not** the focus target, her ADC is. So when you say you're balancing her as a Support, in my view, it provides an excuse to keep her solo lane weaker than it ought to be, at the potential threat of her becoming too strong a support.
She gets played both lanes successfully and will continue to--we're committed to keeping her strong in both lanes. Balancing for support is about acknowledging that most Zyra players do play her there. Trying to force her into a new lane isn't part of our goals with the update, but if she ends up mid we'd still be happy with her.
LankPants (OCE)
: >We're balancing for support, Why? Zyra's theme makes so much more sense mid lane. From what I've seen a lot of players seem to want Zyra to be a mid laner. When Zyra support is viable it tends to force people like Sona and Nami straight out of the meta (like they need help with that). I'd say balance around Zyra mid and let Zyra support be a gimmicky thing. It seems far more desirable that way around.
Mainly because a lot more Zyra players take her bot than mid and we've typically had a bad time trying to force roles into champs. We're open to balancing her for mid if that's where she ends up.
SwipeZ (NA)
: Nice to see something on Zyra after waiting for so many days. Yes, some people pointed out the vagueness, but for Zyra it's hard to be completely specific with the goals wanted (changing passive and interactions with plants). I would say, after reading through all the rioter comments and the post itself, sounds like you guys did a lot of playing and research since you hit the nail on the head with what us Zyra mains have been complaining about / talking about for the update. The only thin I dissent with is balancing Zyra around support. To me, she is and has always been a mid laner. Her kit (minus passive) is quite frankly designed to be a mid laners kit. She was just moved to support since she always provided high damage and strong counter initiation, freeing up mid for a more roamy champion. I know you want to keep mid Zyra in mind, so please keep her viable mid. Also, keep Zyra jungle possible as well, it is quite strong and works well.
That's certainly been a common sentiment in the thread. Nothing's set in stone, but in the end we can only balance for one or the other. Many mid Zyra players have posted and agree strongly with each other that she should be mid -- many more play her support. They'll both be strong and whatever we choose, there'll be Zyra players who play the other role.
LankPants (OCE)
: >We're balancing for support, Why? Zyra's theme makes so much more sense mid lane. From what I've seen a lot of players seem to want Zyra to be a mid laner. When Zyra support is viable it tends to force people like Sona and Nami straight out of the meta (like they need help with that). I'd say balance around Zyra mid and let Zyra support be a gimmicky thing. It seems far more desirable that way around.
We think she'll be successful midlane, absolutely. If Zyra mid ends up being the main way to play her, we'd adapt just as we did when she moved bot after her initial release. If we decided to force her mid, what would we say to all the Zyra support players? Support Zyra has been the main way to play her for a long time, and she has an awful lot of players too.
JudasLover (EUNE)
: ***
Hmm... it's an interesting point. We want players to have the freedom to build champs they want they want, but that involves understanding the difference between the builds, which can be tricky when it comes to which is stronger.
: What do you mean by "more lane control" ? More plants and control of a specific area ? The current Zyra already has a good pushing power though. That's not her weak point at all. Constant pressure and push doesn't mean "good" though. The thing is that ultimately her pushing power hinder her more than anything due to exposing her a lot to ganks and such, and in this scenario, you may be Faker or not, she doesn't have anything that would protect her despite her poor resistances due to her E being one of the most underwhelming CCs/Snares of the game in her case ( casting time, missile speed, direction ) and your R being not reliable enough in this specific instance.
Both! More plants and more control of a specific area. Also, she's definitely already good at pushing, but almost everything we do makes her better mid xD And agreed on the exposure to ganks--one of the things we're trying is an AI tweak to plants. Currently we're testing that if they hit a champion, they won't start hitting creeps again on their own unless Zyra tells them too--letting her control her push as long as she hits a champ.
LankPants (OCE)
: >The next thing on the wishlist is the passive. Player discussion as well as our own internal investigations have shown it’s the weakest part of her kit, and we think we can do better for her passive. Rise of the Thorns provides some cool moments at a time when nothing else is going on since you’re dead, so we expect players will notice the absence at first, but we feel this ability holds Zyra back more than it helps her. The spell’s slow missile speed and long windup were required for it to be fair, but in the course of becoming fair it lost a lot of fun. I hope this means that you're scrapping the passive entirely and going back to the drawing board creating a new one. There's nothing salvageable about Zyra's passive and it's honestly something that just needs to not exist. It feels terrible to use and I really can't see reworks to it making it feel better, you still have to die to use it after all. >Do I get two ranged plants, two melee, or one of each? They’re unique and they deserve to be preserved. Right now there is never a reason to get two melee plants. The slows don't stack so having 1 and 1 is always better.
We've tried different death passives and brand new passives, currently we're leaning toward just making a new one. As for the two melee plants, that's... actually a very fair point. I'm used to thinking about it from before we made slows stop stacking, but nowadays there's not much reason to get two melee plants. My bad!
Stacona (NA)
: I love playing support Zyra, the fact that she is the highest damage dealing support ever (even more damage than Vel'Koz who I think is better mid than support, but he can still support) and the rewarding feeling from Zyra because of her very high skill cap (which also prevents her from being played because of brain dead easy supports like Soraka and Janna who need gameplay updates to fix this issue and their frustration to play against, but moving on...). So checklist would be: 1. High damage 2. High utility 3. Ability to still be a support; which results with points 1 and 2 4. Keep her as a hard to play / high difficulty curve champion to play for that rewarding element when played well More zone control and counter engage (and follow up to teammate engage) elements high and more plant stuff, make her W feel like a real spell instead of 2 abilities and an ultimate; 3 abilities, a passive, and an ultimate be cool; do not know how you would do this while keeping her plants though.
Some of this stuff looks harder than it is. Testing's shown us that "lots more plants" can go a long way xD
: That's honestly kinda disappointing to wait 14 days in comparison to the 7 days for other champions and have such a lackluster resume of her imo, especially when you're aiming to balance her for support when you announced ( well not you but another rioter ) in another thread that she expressed best herself when she was in a primary role for gold. A good mid will always find its way to the botlane, a good support won't find its way to the midlane. Furthermore, in the other directions every spell of them were treated differently, strenghts, weaknesses and what it implied for the gameplay of the champion and what they intended to do for each one of their spells. Here you're merely saying "that's cool, that's satisfying, that's good", just why is it good ? Why is it cool ? Why is it satisfying ? What do you intend to do with the passive ? Tweak the current one or add a complete new one ? In which direction will it go ? >You feel the plant theme strongly playing against her. In what way is the Q representing the "plant theme" for you ? Except for the "plant skin" ? That's merely Brand's W, with less range, less damages, but a shorter CD. The plant theme is provided by the W effect, not the Q. > Zyra herself currently experiences plants as a way to invest more in a spellcast through W; we’d like to take this further. Cool, how do you intend to do that ? Adding more interaction with her spells ? her passive ? >Do I get two ranged plants, two melee, or one of each? They’re unique and they deserve to be preserved. The problem is plante balance atm and again, the AI behind both. One ATM is clearly stronger (range plants) due to the buggy AI, the fact that slows don't stack, and a strong synergy with some items ( Rylai.. ). Will we have a "fix" of the AI and the bugs we can often encounter ? ( Not attacking when in range, not attacking for 0.5sec after blooming, wrong target .. ) > Her E is cool, satisfying, and very planty Her E is cool, very planty and iconic of the character, sure, but it's everything but satisfying atm. That's one of the slowest CC of the game, so easily avoidable by anyone with dashes or high mobility, especially with all these new items and buffs, that is requiring an immobile champion to stand still ( her crouching animation taking at least 0.5 sec) for 30% to 70% of its duration depending on your levels. Syndra can stun in multiple directions for twice the speed while not having a casting time, sure both are really different, and Zyra's overwhelming teamfighting strenght should come with a downside like her poor resistances and her fragile state, but in the other hand she doesn't have anything that allow her to survive or outplay the enemy depending of the player's skill given she's the slowest champion of the game, her E isn't complex enough to provide her a good protection and her ultimate has a pretty long windup thus isn't reliable enough ( knowing you don't seem interested in giving the choice to players for example to closing the trap early thus affecting the CCed zone) . Do you intend to do something about her survivability despite keeping her fragile state ( resistances, HP ..) or is that a no go? That's one of the main reasons she's more frustrating to play every season due to all these mobility changes and new champions with pretty safe kits, I kinda have the feeling that by "balancing her for support" you're just entirely skipping the reasons why she isn't played much in other roles, that's because she's too dependant of others.
I'll answer your questions as best I can! Please bear in mind these are direction posts--they're about our goals and thinking, not specific changes. > What do you intend to do with the passive ? Tweak the current one or add a complete new one ? In which direction will it go ? We played around with both, but we're currently leaning toward doing a completely new passive. > In what way is the Q representing the "plant theme" for you ? Except for the "plant skin" ? The Q doesn't have much plant theme on it. As other folks have pointed out here, there's not much room on the spell--Zyra has enough to think about, so the Q has to stay simple; the simpler it is, the less room it has. We're exploring what we can do with it, mainly around giving Zyra more ability to make plants with it. > Cool, how do you intend to do that ? Adding more interaction with her spells ? her passive ? All these are options, and we've tried most of them! Passives that make plants, revenge passives that make plants, spells that make plants, different ways of using enrage, etc. That's the main reason these posts are about direction and goals rather than specifics--all this is subject to change. > Will we have a "fix" of the AI and the bugs we can often encounter ? ( Not attacking when in range, not attacking for 0.5sec after blooming, wrong target .. ) For sure. Plant behavior feeling inconsistent/buggy isn't great. As it happens, I was working on the 'not attacking when in range' bug earlier today xD > Do you intend to do something about her survivability despite keeping her fragile state ( resistances, HP ..) or is that a no go? Base stats are definitely on the table. Something has to give, but a tanky Zyra would feel strange... we're thinking about things like base movement speed as a way to keep her feeling like Zyra while helping her live more.
JudasLover (EUNE)
: Even if you say you wanna maintain Zyra mid good, seeing that you finally ended up balancing her primarily for a role that doesn't make her as glorious as she could be is sad. I really hope this doesn't make mid Zyra weaker than now in any way at all. So many champions who would have been glorious mid have been devoured by other roles like poor Ekko. Luckily Vel'Koz survived and most of them are mid and not support now. :( Also, on the 'role gone astray' part, I think it's good to support whatever the players choose in some cases, but many times the original role a champion is designed for really is worth being optimized for by you guys and people are just gonna get used to it. Zyra mid could have been a spectacularly iconic mage, but just because she had CC and everyone got used to her bot lane, support absorbed her. I was hoping you would solidify her mid with this update, but now as I said I just wish Zyra mid doesn't get weaker.
Everything we've tested so far has made her mid significantly stronger. There's specific reasons for that which vary from test to test, but the central theme is "more plants = good for mid", usually because of pushing power and lane control. We're balancing for support, but there's a lot there for mid too ^^
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20thCenturyFaux

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