: that is an intended form of counterplay, because the old instant cast w was completely broken and made ryze completely unfair to play against as well as broken in pro scene
it's not instant. ryze has to finish casting 2 abilities to get it and end his combo. it used to be W would snare by itself, meaning you could combo off it.
: This specific interaction looks completely intended by riot as counterplay. The fact is, talon was running away from the E projectile, then he flashed BEFORE E hit adding even more distance, however, ryze had already used the W before the E hits. This is the intended counterplay to ryze. His E w combo is coded to work everytime at max range, this was well beyond his max ew range, and as such the projectile speed was not fast enough. The problem is they dont tell you the speed E travels at anywhere, so you cant know the range the E is out paced by the W. My guess is its around 800 units or so. Talon used his Flash to escape the combo, its that simple. Riot intended this. This is more a buff ryze could receive if he was weak not something inherently wrong in his kit. This occurs when the enemy travels a certain distance away from ryze during the cast/travel time, flashes dashes and blinks and insane movespeed buffs.
pantheon had this problem last patch and they fixed it. if you dashed out of W, pantheon stun wouldn't stun. this is exactly the same thing. there's no way for ryze to know whether his EW will snare while he's casting, which is super jank. I don't mind people being able to flash or dash away, but the snare should still snare afterwards.
: Kassadins q into e combo does the same, the e hits first the q hits second even tho q was cast first. This is intended counterplay. His w/e wouldnt be cast time abilities if it wasnt.
this is not a good comparison. I don't undestand how e hitting before q is supposed to change anything. as kassadin, if you flash into someone and finish casting E Q, the enemy will get hit by both abilities even if they flash.
: same interaction occurs with annie, throw the q but push W and the w uses the stun instead of the q, also the q into e for q to stun also interacts like this. Its completely intended by riot. the E is NOT a enemy centered spawn point ability and the spread isnt instant, its completely intended as his kits interactions. A lot of champions have small things like this in their kits. Annie, kassadin, malzahar(push Q then r the R hits first), fizz, morg(these are both ridiculous examples as their R are massively delayed for obvious reasons but its the same concept as ryzes EW) fiora's vitals delay on spawning preventing the RQ instant vital hit malphites q travel time, irelias delay on the stun vs her Q reset(gotta wait for the mark to hit first), even Diana has this same delay vs instant interaction.
it's completely different. you'll get the stun off with annie no matter what. in that case it's fine to hold the other ability until after the stun is over. In Ryze's case he's not even getting the snare no matter how good he plays. look at the first clip and tell me if Ryze had enough time to wait for E to land before snaring. the ryze situation is exactly like pantheon last patch where when people walked too fast or dashed away from his W, the W wouldn't stun. They fixed it so it stuns if he manages to get the cast off even if they dash away during the animation.
: I know what buffering is. That isn't the point of this post. Point is that people think here it's bad that Ryze has to hit his E first (E having contact with the enemy thus applying the passive) and then using his W for the snare. You just said that it doesn't go off sometimes which could be a bug. But if you aren't waiting for the E to hit then it is not a bug, it's just that you aren't patient enough with your combo.
I really hate repeating myself, but nobody should be waiting for their E to land before using W. that's just being a terrible Ryze player. E W is supposed to snare, and does so most of the time. there's no way for the ryze player to know his E W won't snare until all his abilities and flash are used and he's got nothing left.
: or how about you wait like everybody else. you are not supposed to hit your keyboard as hard as possible. smh ryze mains
except you **are **supposed to hit your abilities as fast as possible. playing ryze means buffering all your combos so that they come out fluidly. if a ryze player is not buffering his combos, he's just straight up bad. the only exception is when E Qing. you just need to Q before the next E is up to be efficient.
: Or you can time it a bit. Both those abilities are point-and-click. They are baby easy to use. I think it isn't a lot to wait a milisecond so the E projectile hits the enemy before using the W. It isn't even a bug, the E is a ball that has to travel from your champ to the enemy, while the W is instant. It's obvious that it you use them so simultaneously that's going to happen.
except it's not possible to time it without buffering (which is demonstrated in the clip.) if you time w to cast 1 millisecond after E is done casting, you'll have to wait for internet latency for the w to cast. if you look at the first clip, he flashed immediately which would've cancelled the W if ryze had waited any longer to cast W. the point is that this is not intended behavior. E W will snare even if you buffer at max range as intended (try it in practice mode) except when it randomly doesn't (bad design).
: Well that would be a bug then. You sure that you weren't just too fast with your W? I don't have many Ryze games but I never had this problem or actually never heard about it from friends who play him.
buffering means queuing up the next ability so that it casts immediately when it can. it always casts the same speed if you buffer. all you do is hit the w before e is done casting.
: His EW is absolutely intended to snare, I don't disagree with that, and I'm writing with that in mind My point is that if there isn't a small duration that Ryze has to wait for his E to land (or almost land), then there's no counterplay to his W after that Sure he uses his E and puts it on cooldown, but that's a really small trade-off for being able to instantly root 100% of the time with EW
there is counterplay. ryze has 615 range. he has to finish casting two entire spells to snare anyone and is left with no more spells for combos. look at that clip and tell me that 150 hp talon deserved to live standing in lane like a silver. ryze had to use his flash + all his abilities without any errors and the EW randomly didn't snare even though it does 80% of the time.
: It is working as intended because you have to hit your E first before you can snare someone. That's the point of the changes, COUNTERPLAY. People have to be patient now instead of getting a ranged-point and click-nobrain-snare instantly. Working as intended and shouldn't be changed.
yes, that's what you're doing. the problem is it only works 80% of the time. go into a practice game with ryze and hit EW fast enough so that W buffers after E is cast. it will snare because that's what intended. the problem is when it randomly doesn't.
: Strictly it's just you being bad. It's not a bug it's just a frustrating interaction in the kit.
the problem is that you are forced to buffer or deal with input delay in between spells. it's riot's fault for not making the abilities consistent.
: I am not defending riot at all or saying that this is good, but it is possible that riot intended this outcome. One of ryze's problem mechanics in the past was his instant EW 2 second snare, so they may have removed it completely.
riot intended that EW will snare. takes double as much time to cast as old snare and it doesn't combo the same way. the problem is that it isn't consistent. if 80% of the time EW snares, how are you supposed to know when it won't. the first clip displays just that.
: If his E lands within his W cast time, the only difference is he spends a small fraction of a second in E animation and he puts his E on cooldown It's true he can't then EQ, but the fact that he can root from range facilitates so much more damage from Ryze's ally jungler or his team later in the game than Ryze's extra Q damage It'd absolutely be a buff that he would have to receive compensation nerfs for
I don't think you understand properly. normally EW is intended to snare... it's not working as intended.
: The whole point of these changes was so that Ryze couldn't instantly hard CC you from range. I wouldn't be so quick to want that back I just feel like putting that power into Ryze will make him too much like Twisted Fate when Riot balances around the change
it's not instant. ryze has to cast E before snaring. The problem is when you E then W and snare doesn't work properly. it's more of a bugfix. if I could cast W .005 seconds later it maybe would've snared. that's impossible though because you **have to buffer** or deal with input delay after the first cast.
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