: More class specific items
> [{quoted}](name=JavelinJoe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c6nEei1K,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-07-21T22:22:59.704+0000) > > I think if there were more class specific items the game's balance would be better, and be overall more enjoyable. I'm not sure class-specific items is the way to go for LoL. A big part of the charm with the current itemization is that champions can build in the direction that best suits them, rather than being forced into a specific direction based on their class. Also: while a decent number of champions like Illaoi, Talon, and Lucious do fit snugly into a specific archetype, there are a fairly substantial number of champions in LoL built that don't fit neatly into any category at all.
Nhifu (NA)
: Ahri compared to Swain
> Ahri is supposed to be the same way, but her kit just feels very lack luster. Ahri isn't supposed to be similar to Swain, both are on the opposite side of the spectrum as far as Mages go. Ahri is fast and fragile, Swain is slow and durable. This also tends to lead Ahri in the direction that she's much better in a pre-fight, post-fight, skirmishing, and picking off targets where Swain is better in team-fights. Both play quite differently, and bring something very different to a team. I do wish Riot made the differences between champions more clear, but these 2 mages don't share a whole lot in common.
Rexxiee (NA)
: Talon kit doesnt pay anything for the mobility/safety/map roam he has
> [{quoted}](name=Rexxiee,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AQyrh92X,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-07-10T00:13:27.041+0000) > Champ really needs either its mobility or damage nerfed hard, way too overpowered in solo q. Why should his mobility or damage be nerffed over any other part of his kit? He's an assassin, he's supposed to be both mobile and deadly. Technically speaking, you could also nerf him in like, 10,000 ways that wouldn't touch either (making him squishier, making his combo more telegraphed, giving him a greater CS loss associated with roaming, making his combo easier to punish on it's downtime, making his his teamfighting worse, making his short range more punishiable, forcing him to get closer to targets to unleash his combo, giving tells he's comming in fog of war, tying his kit to a specific item that forces a riskier play style, reducing his AoE, making his abilities less accurate through reducing projectile speeds/aoe/creep-blocking, among many, many other ways. I'm just saying, there are other things than DMG and SPD to balance a champion with.
: which is really sad imo since it was more than enough before. you understand what rushing is yeah? aka first item. aka ur first 2800 gold goes straight into getting that. armor has a cap. after 150 armor the % slows down a lot. or after 70% reduction. so we can agree that after 200 armor getting more armor is making ur gold less efficiently spent. yet ad can go up and up in ad and penetration. they scale. so how much armor do i need to not die to a damage dealer..?? by the time I get 2 items they have 2-3 also. mitigating my armor again..
>armor has a cap. after 150 armor the % slows down a lot. or after 70% reduction. I feel like you're tunneling on the %DR a bit much and missing what this actually means in gameplay. 100 armor reduces damage taken by 1/2 200 armor reduces damage taken by 2/3 300 armor reduces damage taken by 3/4 400 armor reduces damage taken by 4/5 500 armor reduces damage taken by 5/6 Alternatively, if you grab a +1,000 HP item when you have 1,000 HP 1,000 HP will x2 your health, causing hostile attacks to only deplete 1/2 the % of your max HP they did before. 2,000 HP will x3 your health, causing hostile attacks to only deplete 1/3 the % of your max HP they did before. 3,000 HP will x4 your health, causing hostile attacks to only deplete 1/4 the % of your max HP they did before. 4,000 HP will x5 your health, causing hostile attacks to only deplete 1/5 the % of your max HP they did before. 5,000 HP will x6 your health, causing hostile attacks to only deplete 1/6 the % of your max HP they did before. Ultimately, armor scales in exactly the same way as other core stats like AD and HP. You're not incorrect in pointing out it becomes less efficient as time goes on, with very few exceptions it's more preferable to spread out gold among a wide range of stats in LoL over focusing on one specific stat. If armor went 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%, 90%, 100% damage reduction, it would be the equivalent of 11%, 25%, 42%, 67%, 100%, 150%, 233%, 400%, 900%, and 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000*infinity% more HP/AD/etc.
: Riot expanded armor pen/lethality as a way to pigeonhole assassins into designate "assassin" itemization. They did this because forcing every class to have a designated series of items is a lazy way of making the game easier to balance. If all assassins are building one thing, all bruisers are building one thing, and all ADCs are building one thing, you can just tweak that thing to change the strength of a class as a whole without having to think about how it affects other classes. My problem with this bullshit is that it turns champions into less of their own thing and more a vehicle for items. The meta is basically decided by who has the best synergy with the best runes and items.
> [{quoted}](name=TotalJerk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L0qHAKjN,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-07-09T03:04:32.794+0000) > > Riot expanded armor pen/lethality as a way to pigeonhole assassins into designate "assassin" itemization. To be fair: Assassin's don't have any go-to stats like HP, AD, or AP that define the set of items for classes like Tanks, Marksman, and Mages. Having at least something for assassins would give Riot more levers to balance assassins with, allowing kits with a solid risk/reward dynamic to not go down the same tanky DPS fighter path as "assassins" like Lee Sin, Irelia, Akali, Katarina, Fizz, Ekko, Kassadin, etc. This is a re-occurring problem with assassins in every meta. A lot of the champions released as assassins in the OG aren't even considered as assassins anymore due to their kits never allowing that kind of itemization to feel good on them. One of the biggest problems facing the assassin archetype is that building enough defenses to survive twice as long and thus do twice as much damage is frequently more preferable to building enough damage to double damage, leading to a lot of tanky assassin metas and builds: at which point such champions aren't assassins anymore, they're just fighters with very solid escape skills.
: > [{quoted}](name=Slythion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jjX8ARp0,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-06-14T04:32:29.937+0000) > > Just as Boosted said, you should play Fiora. Playing her will help you understand the specific aspects of her kit, for instance: you would know that her Q only has a short cooldown if it hits an enemy. It's hardly even a decent escape tool I've just played against one and as soon she get black cleaver, ravenous hydra and death dance, the cooldown is negligible. It's way to short.
3 major items is an end-game build. (average gold per champ per game has been ~11,000 for the last couple years: which works out to 1k in boots, 3 major 3k items, and 1k in the bank when someone's Nexus explodes). This also means anyone doing slightly below average (loosing teams), will tend to end a game with only 2 major items completed. If a carry gets to an end-game build you're going to have problems. If you're not playing a carry, you need to make an impact during the 0, 1, or 2 major item phases: and push to win earlier rather than later.
: > [{quoted}](name=Eedat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H7YT29On,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-22T05:47:34.331+0000) > > No thanks. Its a separate item in a separate game and wasn't designed around how LoL works at all. So much nope i made it better for league. and the item has a relatively long cd s its no different then a rammus w in an item.
18 seconds on an item active is not a "relatively long CD".
: how to make thornmail not useless.
> how to make thornmail not useless. It's already pretty solid, it's a more cost-effective {{item:3068}} that's better than {{item:3068}} against a decent number of champions. It's just niche because it's power doesn't translate to an entire team comp as smoothly ~80% of the time. The only issue I've ever really seen anyone raise with Thornmail is also that it doesn't counter a 15k build from a hyper carry and allow anyone who buys it to AFK kill them. Which it obviously doesn't do, because that would be stupid. > turn it into blademail from dota2. 100% balanced. Blademail is fairly BS in DotA, and that game allows items to offer things like 14 seconds of stealth, 10 seconds of immunity to all magic damage and CC effects, re-setting all your cooldowns with the click of a button for 2 full QWER rotations, 7% max HP regenerated per second, and similar shenanigans in their itemization, which should say something. Itemization between LoL and DotA isn't in the same ball-park in terms of power, both have very different philosophies and power levels. And true to DotA items, Blademail would be completly broken moved over to LoL.
: How does armor penetration work? +Lethality?
> Is it possible to have 100% armor penetration? Not with %armor pen alone the way % armor pen currently stacks. If you have 50%, 50%, and 50% penetration, you'll penetrate 50% of the target's armor, 50% of the remaining armor (75% total), and 50% of the remaining armor after that (87.5%). Now: if you have enough flat armor penetration to take out the remaining 12.5% armor, you'll effectively penetrate 100% of a target's armor and deal True Damage. The 40 armor/mr reduction on Nasus's Spirit Fire will pretty much always do the trick there, and that can be applied for teammates to take advantage with their own skills and items.
: Why Armor/MR early instead of HP?
> So I learned that early game, health lets you live longer than armor does. That depends on the situation. Health is more cost-effective on a gold-per-power bases than either Armor or MR, as at level 1 you only need ~500 HP to double your survival, with armor/MR you need ~130 on top of your bases, which is more costly. However: this mostly assumes a burst-war aiming to 100%-->0% a target. Armor and MR have much greater synergy with any healing, HP bonuses, or when facing opponents with life steal. Restoring 10 HP when you have 50% damage reduction ultimatly accomplishes the same thing as restoring 20 HP with 0% damage reduction, as your opponent needs to send 20 damage your way to counter it in either case. As such: HP/5, healing potions, health relics, life-steal, spell-vamp, healing, HP shields, and anything else that bolsters HP is directly improved with Armor/MR, while HP has no innate synergy with such mechanics. As the lanning phase tends more towards a contest of endurance than burst, Armor/MR investments can compound their defensive bonuses many times over between trips to the fountain, where HP generally just offers it's bonus once between trips back to the base. Armor also helps a lot vs. hostile life-steal, as doubling defense through HP will have no impact on the HP restored per AA from a vampiric champion, where halving their damage output with armor/MR will also halve the healing they revive per AA/ability for double cost-efficiency. ------------- Another thing to consider is that while counter-building is certainly a thing in LoL, the advantage counter-building grants is usually pretty minimal compared to the synergy provided by completing core items for a champion. It's nifty if both line up, but it's almost always optimal to go for items that resonate with the champion you're playing over items focused on giving your lane opponent a hard time, regardless of what Riot tried to tell you with LoL's tutorial recommending {{item:3075}} on {{champion:22}} .
: Instead of nerfing the heck out of assassins, why dont you just ultra-buff supports?
> Instead of nerfing the heck out of assassins, why dont you just ultra-buff supports? Supports ride a pretty fine line between being crazy useful with no items but being outclassed vs. other champions in non-support lanes vs. just being crazy useful. If supports were ultra-buffed, there wouldn't be a reason to play any champion that wasn't a support.
: Worst Part Of Being a Support Main...
> even if I get mine fed, they still can be instantly destroyed later in the game no matter how hard I protect them. That's always been the case. Glass-cannons are gonna shatter like glass if they take a solid hit. It's probably one of the major reasons Riot's let Marksman be a mandatory class for so much of LoL's history as well. Regardless of how powerful they get, a glass cannon always *can* be instantly destroyed later in the game. Whether or not they are tends to depend on how good a marksman player is at positioning, as well as how well they fight with their team and how well there team fights with them.
: This game boggles my mind
> [{q> I need someone to help me under how a vlad going full tank top with no ap items can out damage a Kennen with 2 full ap items. It makes absolute no sense to me. The main thing to understand with this is that when it comes to dealing damage in LoL, champions tend to rely on 1~2 of these 3 things to survive long enough to do their job: Defense, Mobility, Range. This is really awkward concerning itemization basically just offers offense and defense. However: you should generally respect champions and their kill potential regardless of the amount of tankyness they build. A lot of tanks, fighters, and durable mages don't tend to have any less kill potential than glass cannons. which makes sense when you consider the advantages range and mobility can provide to champions like Ahri, Kalista, Ezreal, and Kennen are worth considerably more than nothing.
: On GP each barrel hit should increase its damage by 20% per barrel
> On GP each barrel hit should increase its damage by 20% per barrel With changes like this, it's worth considering the general mindset of LoL players due to how LoL plays out. Kha'Zix's isolation damage doesn't look like bonus damage to anyone, it looks like a condition Kha'Zix needs to reliably perform to function properly. Rapid Fire Cannon's passive doesn't look like a nifty bonus to ranged champions, it looks like an item that's almost completely useless on a melee champion (despite most of it's cost being Crit and AS). A big part of LoL is about optimizing and getting the best possible result, and not being satisfied with the 3rd best outcome. If GP's barrels increased in damage per chain: big chains would cease being something that looks cool and feels good in the right moments, and become something that feels like THE ONLY WAY Gangplank should be played.
: No, it should have grievous wounds. ADCs have so much lifesteal nowadays its crazy. Not to mention you get shredded in no time by arm pen builds...
> No, it should have grievous wounds. It should not. If a champion manages to maintain distance, kite like a boss, avoid all the incoming skillshots, maintain solid positioning, and hammer away at their opponent by packing enough damage to kill them: they shouldn't loose because thornmail. Rewarding AFK plays and doing essentially nothing with an item purchase that hard-counters a certain play style is terrible game-design, which is essentially what GW thornmail would accomplish. ATM Thornmail is already a pretty solid guarantee you'r opponent's life-steal is going to be 100% useless if they attack you. Beyond that: it's worth pointing out Thornmail is essentially a cheaper {{item:3068}} that's slightly more effective against the right opponents, and Thornmail's overall intention is in a pretty similar place to the cape. It's not supposed to be a miracle item that hard-counters an 11,000 gold build on a carry, just a defensive item that provides a nice chunk of defense and a smattering of damage.
: > [{quoted}](name=67chrome,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=89u6uzfN,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-09-04T17:47:43.265+0000) > > Why should it be a melee only item? > > You can buy pretty much any item on any champion as-is, and that's a big part of the charm of LoL's itemization. its also a large part to why certain ranged champions are broken.
A similar thing can be said about any item+champion combo that's strong. Balancing the game by heavily restricting item choice doesn't strike me as a good change though. I'd rather have more freedom than less freedom.
: 38% damage reductions FROM ALL SOURCES OF DAMAGE So you know 62 armor + 62 MR {{item:1057}} provide 40 mr for 800g {{item:1031}} provide 40 armor for 800g So you dont have the 62 armor and mr but lets say you buy {{item:3512}} for 2700G to have 55 armor and MR Now you have an 2700 defensive item on yi or graves which mean nothing.... But now you have 40% damage reduction from OFFENSIVE items and you reduce for 40% the damage you take from all sources Plus the 40% damage now apply before ressistances so your ressistance alone will have you 30-40% damage reduction plus the 40% (which dosent stack additevely but they stack) you know have almost 55-60% damage reduction from all sources BY BUILDING OFFENSIVE ITEMS And we see no problem with that?
> 38% damage reductions FROM ALL SOURCES OF DAMAGE It's only 38% damage reduction from physical and magical damage, which isn't all sources of damage. %Damage Reductions don't effect True Damage, because the entire point of True Damage is that it isn't effected by %damage reductions.
DropFill (NA)
: Why frozen mallet is not a melee only item?
Why should it be a melee only item? You can buy pretty much any item on any champion as-is, and that's a big part of the charm of LoL's itemization.
ItsOrval (NA)
: Why Are Ranged Champs Allowed To Buy Melee Items?
Pretty sure it works like this: http://pre11.deviantart.net/70a1/th/pre/i/2013/039/5/f/madwithpower_by67chrome_by_67chrome-d5ub98n.jpg
: "Violence is a Key Aspect to Warwick's Theme, and We Want to See How Far We Can Push That"
> "Violence is a Key Aspect to Warwick's Theme, and We Want to See How Far We Can Push That" Considering werewolves started as a way to explain serial-killers and murderers, I approve of this. Cursed beasts are most interesting when they're, well, cursed. The danger of tipping into a violent, uncontrollable rage is one of the most interesting parts of werewolf stories, and adding that flavor to Warwick's aesthetic could make him a very captivating champion.
: read my post directed at thugwalrus, explaining how his kit is in fact synergistic. you want a wall of text about our new flop mage tank? go read about ekko. complete failure for ap mid lane damage dealer, what he was designed to do. same with swain, and now vlad, all failures. why change what clearly works, no1 is asking for new abilities, if you think hes clunky that is strictly fixed with casting changes to the champion, thats updating, not reworking. hes designed to go in and press R, thats what he does, wins team fights, thats what he offers, you want him to have more on his other 3 abilities and less on his R. you want to change him from team fight oriented, from objective taking/pressure, to tanky front liner. <<<<<<------------ WHY im stunned how a consistently above 50% (currently 55%) win rate champion is failing across the board. hes fine, people new to the champion dont know how to play him. there should be basic abilities in this game, not everything needs dual functions and a paragraph to read.
> read my post directed at thugwalrus, explaining how his kit is in fact synergistic. Fiddlesticks having issues doesn't make Galio's kit any better, and Fiddlestick's capacity to use Zhonya's mid-ult solves a lot of the scarecrow's problems. Galio's wave-clear clearing waves and his magic-damage doing damage with M Pen also shouldn't be noteworthy. > you want a wall of text about our new flop mage tank? Drawing attention away from how floppy Galio is doesn't solve any of Galio's problems. > why change what clearly works, no1 is asking for new abilities, if you think hes clunky that is strictly fixed with casting changes to the champion, thats updating, not reworking. Changing timings and updating a champion does count as a rework or mini-rework. Considering LoL's player-base: no one asking for new abilities is also statistically impossible. > hes designed to go in and press R, thats what he does, wins team fights, thats what he offers, you want him to have more on his other 3 abilities and less on his R. This is so vague it's almost completely meaningless, as you could say the same thing about any champion in LoL. "Ashe is designed to go in and press R, thats what Ashe does, wins team fights, that's what Ashe offers." A lot of champions win team fights if they use their R properly. Galio does have a lot of issues surround his R with it's lack of synergy with his kit, his difficulty in making it work, how oppressive it is under a best-case scenario, and how clunky Galio while he's using his R. He really does need something more fluid with his kit. > you want to change him from team fight oriented, from objective taking/pressure, to tanky front liner. &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;------------ WHY I only listed 2 things I liked about Galio, and no specific direction to take him. You're making an awful lot of assumptions. > im stunned how a consistently above 50% (currently 55%) win rate champion is failing across the board. hes fine, people new to the champion dont know how to play him. Good design =/= High win-rate. High win-rates are often a simple result of math. If all of {{champion:105}} abilities did 1000 base damage with 1000% AP scaling, he'd have a high win-rate. If all his skills had 1 base damage with 1% AP scaling, he would not. That has little to do with good design, and there's a lot more to design than typing the right numbers into a spreadsheet. It's technically possible to balance any mechanic, regardless of how obnoxious, irritating, annoying, misleading, counter-intuitive, or unfun it is to play with or against. Good design, and the reason to re-work a champion into something greater: has a lot to do with how obnoxious, irritating, annoying, misleading, counter-intuitive, or unfun a champion, kit, and/or mechanic actually is. A good designer can also make a kit that's pleasant, harmonious, synergistic, clear, intuitive, and fun: nothing I'd use to describe Galio as-is, seeing as he's a hot mess. > there should be basic abilities in this game, not everything needs dual functions and a paragraph to read. Totally agree with this, a kit doesn't need to be complex to be good. In many cases, a kit just needs to capture 1 idea and do it well, in a simple and straightforward manner with a deceptive amount of depth. Galio isn't a champion I'd chalk up to this though. Not with stopping to cast an MS boost or snipping things before trying to smack them in melee. Nothing in his kit is elegantly designed.
: Yes, you are right, but tanks aren't meant for 1v1s. So they shouldn't 1v1 an ADC. They already have cc and are hard to kill before 35-40 minutes and some of them have decent damage, why should they be able to 1v1 damage dealers now? They shouldn't unless ahead and outplay the adc. There's not much discussion about this. Bruisers and duelists can 1v1 an adc, malphite and amumu shouldn't.
> Yes, you are right, but tanks aren&#x27;t meant for 1v1s. So they shouldn&#x27;t 1v1 an ADC. ADC's usually aren't meant for 1v1 situations either. ADC's tend to be much stronger in team-fight situations then they are alone, similar to tanks. Fighters and assassins are the 2 archetypes that are actually meant for 1v1s, and it's worth noting Fighters are frequently confused with tanks, what with being tanky DPS. > They already have cc and are hard to kill before 35-40 minutes and some of them have decent damage, why should they be able to 1v1 damage dealers now? Tanky champions have a range of power spikes, many aren't any harder to kill than other champions in the first 35 minutes of a game. It's also worth noting the same applies to ADCs - there are a lot of ADCs with strong early and mid-game spikes, the class as a whole isn't limited exclusively to late-game. While it's true 1 major defensive item like Sunfire Cape tends to offer a bigger power-spike compared to a late-game item like IE, there are early-power spike items like Tri-Force and marksman that do build them. With ADCs like Ashe and Varus (and Yasou, if you include melee ADCs), it's not like ADC's always have pitiful CC where tanks have amazing CC either.
: please dont rework galio
> hes fine as is, He's so clunky though. Galio takes a while to get around, his ultimate takes a while to channel, he litterally stops to cast his MS boost (defeating the entire point). ------------------- Galio's also an awkward pre-rework Sion/Urgot mix of 2 very different play styles. In Galio's case, max-range poke mage and in-your-face tank. Neither direction has any harmony or synergy with the other in Galio's case, and even with his passive he's often forced to pursue one or the other with damage or tanky builds, or suffer being underwhelming at both play-styles with a combination. ------------------------------ Galio doesn't have a kit like {{champion:122}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:106}} , or a range of other tanky DPS where Galio gets tons of damage for free so he can build straight-tank and be tank DPS...which is really awkward when you look at Galio's passive and consider the entire anti-mage identity Galio has because his passive tells players he can deal damage while being tanky against mages, leaving him fundementally worse at anti-maging than the vast majority of juggernauts and tanky fighters in the game. The main thing Galio really has on mages is building HP and MR to counter them, which is something all champions in LoL have equal access to and something all tanks and tanky DPS fighters are going to pursue anyways. ----------------------------------------------- Galio's ultimate also lacks synergy with the rest of his kit. With building MR and having the %DR bonus Galio doesn't have much to worry about from magic damage as-is, but he AoE silences everything and then encourages them to auto-attack him to death...which heavily encourages building a lot of countermeasures to physical damage and on-hit effects, not countermeasures to magic. If Galio lands a solid ultimate, all his MR is pretty much useless due to him silencing everyone around him. Galio's kit also leaves out any useful way of initiating a fight with his ultimate, something that can't be said of {{champion:32}} {{champion:89}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:154}} {{champion:111}} {{champion:12}} {{champion:120}} {{champion:59}} All champions that do have a means to start a fight so they can apply an AoE lockdown. It really feels like Galio's kit is taxed for having what should otherwise be a fantastic ult rather than having a kit with a lot of internal synergy and harmony. ------------------ Galio's ultimate also has a long CD, and, when considering Flash is almost mandatory, an exceptionally long CD. This often places Galio in an extreemly binary play-pattern where he gets ~2 solid ults off in a game and wins or doesn't an looses, pushing all the play-making in a ~33 minute match into the span of a few seconds and 2 decisions. ------------------- > please dont rework galio He's really in dire need of one. His current kit is clunky, counter-intuitive, misleading, limiting, and an all-around mess. I do hope Riot keeps the very few highpoints of Galio's kit intact and goes from there. A CC-heavy tank that actually has a decent solo lanning phase while also being a respectable counter to mid-lane assassins is nice, but otherwise Galio's kit has tons of issues.
: No. Tanks aren't supposed to be 1v1ing. The only time where a tank can kill an ADC should be when they cc the adc. Tanks are meant to fall off lategame for being hard as fuck to kill before 35 minutes. Why should someone that goes full tank be able to kill someone that builds damage?
> Why should someone that goes full tank be able to kill someone that builds damage? There are a lot of ways to survive long enough to do work outside of raw tankyness. Mobility and Range are 2 huge and extremely powerful means in which a champion can survive long enough to get a kill, and mechanics like stealth, crowd-control, sustain, minion summoning, and terraforming can all allow a champion the means to survive through an encounter equally to, and in some cases better than, what raw tank stats provide. --------------- {{champion:7}} is often much more difficult to kill than {{champion:57}} for instance, despite a sharp contrast in tankyness. ------------- Riot is fully aware of this, which is why champions like Nasus and Volibear bring as much hurt and kill-potential as the likes of Lux, Ziggs, Zed, and Riven. Range and Mobility aren't flavor bonuses, and they're treated as very real and very strong elements of power within a champion's kit. Full-damage vs. full-tank isn't a bad test, especially if early vs. late and team-fight vs. 1v1 potential is accounted for. And just as there are early-game DPS champions there are late-game tanky DPS champions.
: aaxtrox was never intended to be a melee adc. and his passive isnt nearly enough to make him one. he was always intended to be a bruiser, stacking a mix of health and ad. i mean doesnt his blood pool scale with health? and his w is similar to olafs passive in that it gets better on low health. so youll want to have enough health to survive as long as possible on ~40% total. edit.: ok, his blood pool doesnt scale with health directly, but his abilities cost % current health and fill the blood pool faster, and grant him attack speed faster when he stacks health.
> aaxtrox was never intended to be a melee adc. When he was released everyone thought he was intended to be a melee ADC. I'm pretty sure Riot even intended for him to be a melee ADC. Aatrox building tanky and being a tanky bruiser was pretty much the same thing as release-Irelia being intended an assassin and being built tanky DPS, release Lee-Sin being intended an assassin and building tanky DPS, or release-Ekko being intended an assassin... and building tanky DPS.
: what really anoys me, is that cleaver was meant to be a core item for fighters (and a secondary item to certain assassins), to give them some team synergy and more reason for a team to pick them, but is used to greater effect on some adc. its become a core item on {{champion:21}} and {{champion:236}} who are using it to greater effect against the class it is targeted at, than bruisers themsleves. it wouldnt be as bad if it was a situational item, but this has to stop. the cleaver changes in preseason should be reverted and they should make it slightly more expensive while adding 100 health back on. if that doesnt work, then maybe its tme to think about adding the melee only tag to it aswell, or put some other range penalty on it, like less maximum cleaver stacks for ranged champions. (only 20% armor shred tops for them) imagine the outcry if certain assassins would build adc items like {{item:3031}} to increase their burst and sustained damage and carry harder than adc.
> imagine the outcry if certain assassins would build adc items like {{item:3031}} to carry harder than adc. {{champion:11}}{{champion:157}}?
: So why does Gangplank gain free gold just for csing?
> but from a gameplay perspective its pretty overpowered Not really. There are champions with good scaling and bad scaling and everything in between, and kit-power can be converted to a gold value. Basically: Riot can tax Gangplank's kit a similar level of power he'd gain from gold. Riot taxed Gangplank's kit for his gold passive. Looking at Sion's HP, Lissandra's MP/5, and Jinx's AS it's pretty clear Riot doesn't have an issue with doing this. All capacities of a champion's kit offer some level of power and should eat up some amount of their power budget as well, which is common-sense with design. What makes a champion overpowered isn't that they can do X, it's that they have more power than their power budget should allow.
CppL (EUW)
: who scales better?
Jax. Jax's overall synergy with items is better than Irelia's. Jax's core function of countering hypercarries also makes him a monster come late game by default, as that kind of flips a scaling game on it's head when he pulverizes the champions designed to scale the best.
: Why Riot Gave Up On Spell Vamp - And Why They Should Give It Another Try
> I know that this comes a bit late but spell vamp has been on my mind ever since it was removed Not to be that guy, but Spell Vamp is still very much in the game in champion abilities and runes. It was only removed in items, and even then: only if you get extremely anal about "spell vamp" specifically. {{item:3146}} {{item:3812}} are both items that functionally offer spell vamp. > This also explains why the champions who currently profit the most from Gunblades pseudo-spell vamp / life steal - Jax and Akali - have mostly single target damage. {{champion:82}} {{champion:8}} were the 2 biggest abusers of the stat, both champions that do a ton of AoE damage, so I'd call this in serious question. I've also generally noticed "manaless" tended to be the common thread with champions that felt purchasing spell vamp was a good idea (or rather, had manaless means to access it in the case of Jax and Nunu). {{champion:24}} {{champion:84}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:8}}{{champion:85}} {{champion:20}} {{champion:154}} {{champion:68}} Which makes a lot of sense juxtaposed against the standard {{item:3165}} or {{item:3174}} starts for AP's from seasons past. If a champion is so reliant on abilities they value spell vamp over life steal, running OoM is pretty much the worst thing that can happen to such a champion. Then once late game rolled around: {{item:3157}} was always a better option for helping AP DPS survive by the seat of their pants where WotA left a lot to be desired. Even on mages with impressive DPS like {{champion:50}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:9}} > Instead, just make spell vamp apply only on the nearest target hit instead of all of them. I'm not sure spell-vamp on 1 target only would really fix any issues with spell-vamp, though it would be interesting to test out. Main issue I see is that minions functionally take true damage from everything, which rewards striking minions instead of champions with spells: which is kind of an odd dynamic. Granted, life steal suffers from the same thing. > Here I would suggest that the rule above would also apply to Runaan's, Ravenous Hydra etc. and their interaction with life steal to make it fair. A big part of both of those items is rewarding players that strike multiple foes. Hydra in particular strikes me as good design that allows melee champions rewards that scale directly with the risks they're taking. Striking 5 enemies in melee range is very unsafe and easily punishable in most cases.
: Is balancing this game possible?
> Is it possible to ever reach a point in this game where it is perfectly balanced? Perfection is impossible to achieve, it's like infinity. Great things can be achieved by reaching towards it, but it can never be fully grasped.
: Hate on Control Mage Support
> so why do people hate these supports so much. Hatred is a pretty subjective thing, which makes it difficult to pin down to any objective reasons. Maybe someone hates such picks because they aren't meta, maybe they hate them because they got food-poisoning while watching a magician and loath mages with every fiber of their being. You never know. -------------- As for the downsides of picking a control mage over a support: most control mages require more gold to function at the same level of efficiency as a true support, and supports gain the least gold/xp of any lane position in the game. In the case of mages like Annie, Lux, and Xerath this is a result of them having ~half the utility of a support and needing to deal meaningful damage to make up for the difference, and itemizing for meaningful damage is expensive. In the case of mages like Lissandra and Morgana: the utility is on-par with a support, but there's a much greater risk involved in actually using it effectively, and itemizing for solid defenses and survivability is expensive. Compared to a support like Thresh, Janna, or Alistar: control mages require more gold to do the same thing, which means they do it less efficiently. Not a huge deal in yoloqueue, but when tryhard mode is engaged: efficiency is paramount, being the most efficient player can frequently mean being the best player.
Penns (EUW)
: Isnt that kind of how it is? If you need x armor to go from 30% to 40% dmg reduction, you need more than x armor to go from 40% to 50%..
20% damage reduction isn't twice as good as 10% damage reduction though, 20% damage reduction is more powerful than 10%. 10% damage reduction is actually an ~11.11% increase in overall defense, where 20% is a 25% increase in overall defense. Concerning CDR: 40% is the equivalent of a 66.67% increase in skill frequency, and 45% reduction is the equivalent of an 81.8181% increase in skill frequency. 50% reduction is the equivalent of a 100% boost as well, as double damage is countered by halving damage taken. %reduction and %increase in power aren't interchangeable integers. Armor scales in a 50%, 66.67%, 75%, 80% way because each % point is not at all equal to all other % points. Consider that 1% damage reduction from 98% damage reduction to 99% damage reduction isn't a 1% increase in overall survivability: as it's a massive jump from 2% damage taken to 1%, a doubling in overall survivability. Another way of saying this is that the last 1% damage reduction has the same exact power as the first 98%: which means all games with %damage reduction mechanics where you do go 10%, 20%, 30%, 40% damage reduction actually have exponential scaling (Fire Emblem is a good example here). Also: 1% on 99% is obviously not a 1% boost in defense, as it causes a unit to go from being able to take 100 OHKO attacks to an infinite amount of damage. -------------- What you're running into is perception vs. reality issues, where the misleading way %damage reduction is written is making it quite difficult to internalize how %damage reduction should progress. This can be further illustrated by simply converting %damage reduction into %damage taken. 60% damage reduction and 80% damage reduction don't sound particularly far apart in power, but 40% damage taken vs. 20% damage taken clearly shows the latter is twice as powerful as the former.
Penns (EUW)
: Jumping from 1/2 to 1/3 is still better than from 1/4 to 1/5 dmg taken tho ._.
Linear scaling isn't the same thing as diminishing returns. Diminishing returns implies that if going from 0 to 1 requires 1, going from 1 to 2 requires more than 1.
Itankyou (NA)
: They have diminishing returns. % values --> math, sorry but ur wrong.
All reduction/division values can actually be pretty missleading and confusing with how they're written. It's easier to look at armor as fractions when considering what the OP is talking about: 100 armor is 50% damage reduction, 50% damage taken, or 1/2 damage taken. 200 armor is 66.67% damage reduction, 33% damage taken, or 1/3 damage taken. 300 armor is 75% damage reduction, 25% damage taken, or 1/4 damage taken. 400 armor is 80% damage reduction, 20% damage taken, or 1/5 damage taken. If you have 1000 HP, getting another 1000, 1000, 1000, 1000 is going to do the same exact thing as taking 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, and 1/5 damage from armor. This is very much linear scaling, not diminishing returns. Diminishing returns indicates you'd need more and more armor to go from 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5, etc. jumps rather than the same value (100) being between each increment.
PagRyze (EUW)
: Why AP champions cant have spellvamp but AD champions can ?
> Why AP champions cant have spellvamp but AD champions can ? AP champions still have access to spell-vamp through a range of runes, champion skills, and items. Or rahter: {{item:3146}} offers what's essentially spell-vamp: but better. Things like Cho'Gath's Vorpal Spines, Akali's Twin Disciple, and Teemo's Toxic Shot actually benefit from Gunblade's Vampirisim where spell-vamp as a stat never aided on-hit effects. ----------- As for the availability of life steal vs. spell vamp: AD and AP paths are supposed to be different paths that mean different things, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. If every mechanic was shared equally between both directions, AD and AP would become what's essentially a lame pallet-swap between one another. As-is, Zhonya's stasis is more or less the equivalent of what life steal offers on the AD side, and reflects the divide and needs between AD and AP play-styles more accuratly. ---------- Life steal allows sustained-damage champions to sustain long enough to deal sustained damage. {{item:3157}} allows burst-damage champions a burst of survivability to burst, gain a burst of defense, and then burst again. ------ both life-steal and stasis can be BS in their own special ways, and there are a verity of AD champions that would very much rather have one over the other: but again, each build path carries it's own set of strengths and weaknesses. And some champions are very much intended to have a weakness they can't easily overcome through itemization.
Frius (EUNE)
: what`s with the obsession to add % max hp dmg on everything ,or even multiple skills?
> what`s with the obsession to add % max hp dmg on everything ,or even multiple skills? Consistent damage allows players to win fights by being good at fighting. Inconsistent damage reliant on items and subject to outscaling/underscaling opponents places a lot of emphasis on the grind to convert CS farming to win fights, rather than being good at fighting winning fights. > toxic dmg especially % max hp true dmg ,un countererable. and now kled with atleast 2 skills with % max hp dmg,not current ,not missing,max hp dmg which is the most overpowered That's basically saying games were everything does set damage (or takes out the same % of an enemy's HP) like Mario, Street Fighter, Call of Duty, Mortal Kombat, and Spyro are incapable of having counterplay and the damage is un-counterable. Also heavily implying games like Pokemon and Final Fantasy were you can grind levels to overpower opponents offer the only real form of counterplay.
: Is Polymorph as good as I think it is?
> Is Polymorph as good as I think it is? All supports have great CC, it's one of the key factors of a support's kit. Lulu's Polymorph doesn't really stand out compared to a wide range of other CC effects in terms of strategic value. > If so, why don't we see a lot more Lulu support? Polymoprh is pretty average compared to most CC supports are capable of, so that's not giving her a leg up in the support rankings. As for why she's not picked frequently: Support Lulu was always pretty mediocre when top-lane Lulu was ruling the meta, and support Lulu was arguably hit harder by the nerfs directed at top-lane Lulu than her top-lane position was hit by. Now top-lane Lulu isn't ruling the meta. Also: Lulu's kit is a pretty solid jill-of-all-trades, master of none kind of deal. Issue with such kits is there's a very fine line between being too good at adapting to every situation, having no weaknesses, and being able to easily exploit the many weaknesses of a more focused opponent vs. being so lackluster at everything a more focused opponent can just steamroll over the jack-of-all-trades champ by doing the 1 thing they do best. ATM Lulu's numbers are low enough to give a lot of players pause when playing her.
: [opinion] why are sand soldiers invincible? They should tank for their king and be attackable
> I'm saying we give the sand soldiers 3 hit points like wards or teemo shooms. Now instead of running away, players have the option of taking 3 autos to kill a soldier. I'm not sure if this would improve gameplay. 3 auto-attacks take a long time to perform during all of early/mid game barring a few champions with AA reset combos. Auto-attacks also place champions in a risky range where they can get boped by most spells in the game. And 3 auto-attacks heavily telegraphs movement, making it extremely easy to bop such an opponent. Paired with the short lifespan Azir's soldiers already have: this seems more like a tricksy buff to Azir than anything else, as you'd essentially be creating a false choice for his opponents that's pretty much the same thing as standing in Morgana's pool for 3 seconds so Morgana's pool isn't out for 6 seconds. In several situations it would entail telegraphed movement, ~4 seconds of dedicated attacks or 2 seconds with more mana spent on AA resets than Azir used to make the soldier, and all for shaving off a portion of a 9 second lifespan.
: Can we finally admit that armor penetration itemization introduced recently is broken in it's core?
> Can we finally admit that armor penetration itemization introduced recently is broken in it's core? Armor penetration is actually pretty weak this season. In seasons 3~5, you could achieve 55%+30 armor penetration with a {{item:3071}} {{item:3035}} combo, which was the core build for a wide range of AD casters. Now...45% vs. bonus armor is much worse than 35% total armor, and Black Cleaver requires 6 stacks to reach 30% rather than 4, offering 30% penetration only on the 7th physical damage application rather than the 5th. ----- You have to build all the armor penetration items in the game for less armor penetration power than was previously avalible, which shoehorns a lot of AD champions into only building armor pen items so they can actually deal with all the tanky assassins, tanky mages, tanky supports, tanky marksman, fighters, and tanks in the game. > {{champion:202}} is already on likely-to-be-nerfed in 6.16 list as confirmed by Rioters. Who will be next? That's more of a Jhin problem than an itemization problem. Especially considering Jhin values AD and armor penetration more than any other stats. Regardless of the state of AD and armor pen, he's always going to build those. His crit/AS conversion exist to make him not feel terrible about a wide range of items, they don't make crit and AS as cost efficient as raw AD in regards to boosting his damage or as useful as armor pen at multiplying his damage.
: What is the best build for destroying turret fast ?
> What is the best build for destroying turret fast ? AA Damage vs. towers is equal to 100% of your base AD plus the higher of 40% of your total AP or 100% of your bonus AD. Towers cannot be critically struck, are immune to most spells, do not benefit life-steal, and cannot be debuffed by pretty much anything. Towers are however effected by armor and magic penetrations as of 6.9, as that capacity was recently patched into the game. ------------- On AP you'd want to grab {{item:3100}} for the spellblade proc, with {{item:3135}} {{item:3089}} {{item:3115}} {{item:3006}} for more DPS. --------------- On AD: {{item:3036}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3078}} {{item:3006}} would be your main jam. %AS items that actually work on towers are fairly few and far between, so it's better to add in whatever works for other situations. --------- All that said: turrets aren't as formidable as champions, so it's often more useful getting a range of items that are only 50% effective vs. towers so you can kill champions more effeciently and leave the towers exposed. Critical strikes and on-hit effects from items like Kingblade can do wonders there, where both mechanics are going to offer lower max DPS vs. towers than an AP+%AS build would offer.
: > [{quoted}](name=67chrome,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EmuBTEnE,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-07-23T22:53:08.569+0000) > > Auto-attacks are manaless. > > All passive auto-attack and on-hit steroids are manaless, even on mana-using champions. > > Yasou mostly auto-attacks things to death. > > Steel Tempest is basically an AA steroid that&#x27;s more interesting than just an AS or AD buff. Same thing applies to Riven, Tryndamere, and Aatrox. > To a larger extent: a lot of manaless champions tend to lean heavily in the direction of auto-attacking with spells. Garen&#x27;s Judgement, Rumble&#x27;s Flame-Spitter, Nidalee&#x27;s Swipe, Vladimir&#x27;s tides of blood, etc. {{champion:48}} 's Q has mana on it, {{champion:122}} W, not arguing for against Mana on yas, just pointing those out
When I wrote passive auto-attack and on-hit steroids, I intended "passive" to apply to both. Orianna's clockwork windup, Teemo's Toxic Shot, Cho'Gath's Vorpal Spines, Jax's Grandmaster's Might, Darius's Hemorrhage. No passive aa steroid or on-hit steroid costs any mana. Also: the AA steroid part of Darius's E doesn't cost any mana to access. It's active 100% of the time.
: Why doesn't Yasuo have mana?
> Why doesn't Yasuo have mana? Auto-attacks are manaless. All passive auto-attack and on-hit steroids are manaless, even on mana-using champions. Yasou mostly auto-attacks things to death. Steel Tempest is basically an AA steroid that's more interesting than just an AS or AD buff. Same thing applies to Riven, Tryndamere, and Aatrox. To a larger extent: a lot of manaless champions tend to lean heavily in the direction of auto-attacking with spells. Garen's Judgement, Rumble's Flame-Spitter, Nidalee's Swipe, Vladimir's tides of blood, etc.
MaddMan (NA)
: to make it stupider.
It doesn't make it much better though. If you give 100 HP to a unit with 100 HP, it's a 100% increase in overall power. If you give 100 HP to a unit with 10,000 HP, it's a 1% increase in overall power. If you give the 10,000 HP 100 damage unit 100 damage: it's a 100% increase in overall power. Pretty much the TLDR of why Tri-Force causes tons of damage. It's more beneficial to mix a wide range of stats for a bigger boost in relative power than it is to pursue 1 stat exclusively in LoL.
Jaskko (EUW)
: What would be a good Jungler-er?
> I was thinking of saving up to take Lee sin, but how good at the jungle is he? Lee Sin is a pretty solid jungler. His mains are also pretty happy from everything I've experienced, probably the happiest mains out there. Lee Sin is frequently relevant in the meta, he's fun to play, shows a lot of mechanical mastery, and doesn't receive much hate for doing that. You might want to save for a full page of super-generic T3 runes if you're looking at jungling, but Lee is strong enough you probably won't have to many issues. > Also i heard some people talking about Zed Jungle? I wouldn't recommend it, Especially pre-30. Zed is a champion you'd want level 30 runes/masteries on for jungling.
YuGiHo (NA)
: Why does wukong Max E first
> Why does wukong Max E first Q gives +30 damage per level. Also +5% armor shred, and -1 CD per level. 40 mana, 9~5 second CD. Q also has a range of 300 and only strikes 1 target. E gives +45 damage per level. and +5% attack speed and +5 mana cost. 45~65 mana, 8 second CD. E also has a range of 625 and strikes 3 targets. --------- > wouldn't Q be just as good if not better Q gives substantially less damage per rank (especially when considering AOE), leaving very little reason for Q to ever be better. Especially with the power AoE brings to controlling waves to push or freeze them when needed or for clearing the jungle in record time. Also: for 5% armor shred to equal the damage power of 5% attack speed, you're opponent needs at least 100 armor. Only thing Q first brings is a marginally lower cooldown at higher ranks and lower mana cost, but neither offer particularly strong advantages to circumvent the quantity of damage you're giving up.
: > [{quoted}](name=67chrome,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GvBaywph,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-07-21T04:34:26.819+0000) > > Implying ghosted Singed is the fastest champion in the game. ghost + ult... but you knew that
You're implying something that's pretty absurd. There are plenty of champions in LoL that have there entire kit, aesthetic, and play style centered around being as fast as possible. With what's effectively a 23% MS boost, Singed isn't even close to being one of those champions.
: Why does nobody seem to build Lichbane as Lux?
> Why does nobody seem to build Lichbane as Lux? Lux has amazing range, and optimally using Lich Bane forces her to transition from orbital laser range to Vayne's risky business range.
: When yi can keep up with singed
> When i pop ghost and my ult in Singed, not a single player in this game should be able to stick to me without some sort of CC Implying ghosted Singed is the fastest champion in the game.
: Should ADC's take exhaust while Supports take heal?
> Should ADC's take exhaust while Supports take heal? In really low Elo that's not a bad idea. Most fantasy games feature healing supports and archers with CC. Once everyone gets a solid grasp on LoL's mechanics Exhaust support and Heal carry makes more sense though. LoL supports live to disengage and peel for their allies, which exhaust helps a great deal when more disengage and peel is needed. Marksman are much better served using their skills to save themselves rather than their teammates. Healing themselves and moving out of the way is more optimal than locking down 1 opponent, especially if multiple opponents are after them.
: Can someone tell me the rationale behind Yasuo getting a shield just for walking
> Can someone tell me the rationale behind Yasuo getting a shield just for walking Most champions don't have to do anything to use their passive, as passives tend to be pretty passive. Guess Riot wanted to make Yasou work for his. Also: Yasou's entire kit is very much set up around "never stop moving" as his playstyle and means of survival, and his passive tells everyone "Yasou should never stop moving".
Show more

67chrome

Level 30 (NA)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion