: Fiddlesticks point-and-click fear is good and deserves to stay, here's why:
The only time I'd say a CC as strong as a fear/charm/stun is ok as a point-and-click ability is when it is done either with a delay (Evelynn W), travel time (Annie Q, Panth stun), or certain conditions needing to be met (Sej/Braum's stun stacks, Ryze having to E a target first to W root, and Irelia's old E is an example of this as well even though the condition itself was terrible).
: > [{quoted}](name=A Latte Trouble,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=e0fQb1pu,comment-id=00040000000000010000,timestamp=2019-08-29T19:13:21.418+0000) > > I know that this isn't the point of your reply, but you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what toxic masculinity means. > > Masculinity is an incredible and powerful thing. Toxic masculinity is a widely misunderstood phrase for referring to the type of masculinity that keeps men from doing anything that may be considered weak, else they are shamed and their masculinity be called into question. Crying, showing emotion, caring about appearance, personal hygiene, etc. Hell, even appreciating art and beauty calls masculinity into question for some reason? > It's about men being pushed into a very small box, which is toxic. > > Just to be clear, there's absolutely nothing wrong with showing little emotion, not giving a shit about art, not caring much about your appearance, etc., however it becomes an issue when everyone is forced into that box or ridiculed for stepping outside of it. > > Again, I know this isn't the point of your post, but I used to be in the same boat as you, and finding out what toxic masculinity actually meant made me a lot less annoyed when people used the term. then there was absolutely no reason to use the term here, which is why i find this hard to believe. The term wouldn't have such bad rep if it wasn't overused like it is. I'd be fine with being told these definitions if they actually held up. all they did was point out the general on things.
> [{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=e0fQb1pu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-08-29T20:48:14.708+0000) > > then there was absolutely no reason to use the term here, which is why i find this hard to believe. The term wouldn't have such bad rep if it wasn't overused like it is. I'd be fine with being told these definitions if they actually held up. > > all they did was point out the general on things. I completely agree that it's overused. In this particular context I believe it's used because OP lacks confidence in his own masculinity to the point where he has to reiterate it, lest it be challenged by his casual discussion of personal hygiene. It's not really toxic to anyone as long as he's not projecting that onto other guys, it's just odd.
: > [{quoted}](name=A Latte Trouble,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=e0fQb1pu,comment-id=0004000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-08-29T07:19:59.183+0000) > > I agree, it absolutely is not exclusive to gays. That said, nobody is disowned, beat up, killed, or abandoned socially for being straight (aside from maybe some insane edge cases that shouldn't be argued over). That doesn't mean that straight people aren't killed, beat up, disowned, or abandoned socially, it means that when that happens to them it's not because they're straight. > > The point I'm trying to make here that likely got muddled along the way is that bad things happen to everyone. EVERYONE goes through massive hardships in their life, and EVERYONE should take pride in the overcoming of the obstacles they've faced thus far. > Gay pride is specifically targeting the pride we have in overcoming the hardships that spawned directly from our sexuality. Hardships that wouldn't have existed if we were straight. > > I understand that it's very easy to make the assumption that because we're a Western country, everything is fine since at least we aren't being murdered for being gay (aside from edge cases), but there is a lot of homophobia that's going on. You may not be able to see most of it because a lot of it is behind closed doors, within families, within social groups, etc., but it is there, and it is much more impactful and destructive than the tip of the iceberg that you see in public (i.e. a gay kid being called a f%%, or something relatively non-impactful like that). > > It's very sad and I don't believe that "not being murdered" is enough. because tristan and isolde, because romeo and juliet, and a bunch of other epics, were totally about 2 gays trying to bone each other. Yes, shocking as it might be guy x girl relationship could end up in: beat up, getting killed, abandonment by society, etc. You just have to like the "wrong" person and you're fucked. Your sexual orientation is irrelevant. That's what I hate about all this gay propaganda. You aren't the only ones that suffer. And you aren't the only ones who had it hard. You aren't anything special under the sun. Guy x guy and girl x girl, and guy x many girls and girls x many guys, etc. We had that since ancient times. ............ >.>
> [{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=e0fQb1pu,comment-id=00040000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-08-29T19:04:57.508+0000) > > because tristan and isolde, because romeo and juliet, and a bunch of other epics, were totally about 2 gays trying to bone each other. > Yes, shocking as it might be guy x girl relationship could end up in: beat up, getting killed, abandonment by society, etc. > You just have to like the "wrong" person and you're fucked. > > Your sexual orientation is irrelevant. That's what I hate about all this gay propaganda. > You aren't anything special under the sun. Guy x guy and girl x girl, and guy x many girls and girls x many guys, etc. We had that since ancient times. > ............ >.> If you can give me some real life, first world examples of straight people being persecuted for who they love that has nothing to do with being a mixed race couple, then provide them. I'm not talking about Becky trying to date Johnny, but her parents don't want her to because he's a delinquent. I want you to provide an example of a straight relationship being persecuted and discriminated against, not because of the character of the people in the relationship, but for the sole reason that they are straight. You will find nobody who says that they disapprove of a relationship because they're straight. You will find nobody who gets beat up because they're the straight kid. You will find nobody whose parents disowned them because they found out they're straight. You will find nobody who was treated badly in a workplace or school for being straight. This whole conversation is mind boggling to me. The fact that you can even continue to argue that straight couples face the same discrimination as gay couples shows a blatant, willful ignorance on your part. > You aren't the only ones that suffer. > And you aren't the only ones who had it hard. My entire last post was saying this. Get a grip please and stop arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm doing my best to understand your point of view and explain to you that the concept of gay pride doesn't disagree with it.
: > [{quoted}](name=Arcade Lulu,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=e0fQb1pu,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2019-08-28T19:42:42.686+0000) > > But talking about shampoos and conditioners doesn't make you gay. That's just stereotyping and idiotic. And "all "feminine" men are gays" is also a bs stereotype, because those 2 have NOTHING to do with each other > Personality and personal style have nothing to do with your sexual orientation > Talking about shampoo/conditioner just shows that you care about your personal hygiene > Is caring about personal hygiene gay?? :O > Men engaging in feminine behavior doesn't make them feminine, or gay > Nearly not all gays are feminine, there are some really beefy and masculine dudes most of the stereotypes coming in to play here are just generalizations. Stereotype sounds worse tho so gj. you can do better than just going "personal hygiene gay??:o" there's a difference between caring and actually keeping it in order. plenty ppl don't give a shit, grab the shampoo that's there and shower. None of these things actually make you gay nor does the reverse apply to making a girl gay. but these are still generalisations that most people's basic views conform to. > And it honestly seems like that you think being feminine and/or being gay is somehow bad where does it seem like that? i'd like you to point out exactly where. all they did was point out why somebody might think those things are gay/make you gay. > Your whole being just screams toxic and fragile masculinity. Sorrynotsorry you were genuinly just looking for an excuse to say this shit right? This notion that femininity is somehow great but masculinity is bad is garbage.
> [{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=e0fQb1pu,comment-id=0004000000000001,timestamp=2019-08-29T13:59:33.293+0000) > you were genuinly just looking for an excuse to say this shit right? This notion that femininity is somehow great but masculinity is bad is garbage. I know that this isn't the point of your reply, but you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what toxic masculinity means. Masculinity is an incredible and powerful thing. Toxic masculinity is a widely misunderstood phrase for referring to the type of masculinity that keeps men from doing anything that may be considered weak, else they are shamed and their masculinity be called into question. Crying, showing emotion, caring about appearance, personal hygiene, etc. Hell, even appreciating art and beauty calls masculinity into question for some reason? It's about men being pushed into a very small box, which is toxic. Just to be clear, there's absolutely nothing wrong with showing little emotion, not giving a shit about art, not caring much about your appearance, etc., however it becomes an issue when everyone is forced into that box or ridiculed for stepping outside of it. Again, I know this isn't the point of your post, but I used to be in the same boat as you, and finding out what toxic masculinity actually meant made me a lot less annoyed when people used the term.
: > [{quoted}](name=A Latte Trouble,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=e0fQb1pu,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-29T04:00:59.248+0000) > > To answer this, it's less of an "I'm proud I like guys," and more of an "I'm proud of pushing through the hardships I've only had to endure because of who I love." > > There are hundreds of millions of people who despise gays for who they love. Nobody despises straight people for being straight, and even if they did there are no real life repercussions or consequences for being straight. You're not the only one who "had to endure and push through" because you love someone. You aren't even living in an Arabic country where they kill gays. You most likely live in a western country. Where people are a lot more permissive and willing to accept other views. A lot of girls and a lot of guys have to suffer repercussions for whom they love or like. It's not exclusive to gays...... Fml
> [{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=e0fQb1pu,comment-id=000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-29T05:35:32.311+0000) > > You're not the only one who "had to endure and push through" because you love someone. > > You aren't even living in an Arabic country where they kill gays. You most likely live in a western country. Where people are a lot more permissive and willing to accept other views. > > A lot of girls and a lot of guys have to suffer repercussions for whom they love or like. It's not exclusive to gays...... Fml I agree, it absolutely is not exclusive to gays. That said, nobody is disowned, beat up, killed, or abandoned socially for being straight (aside from maybe some insane edge cases that shouldn't be argued over). That doesn't mean that straight people aren't killed, beat up, disowned, or abandoned socially, it means that when that happens to them it's not because they're straight. The point I'm trying to make here that likely got muddled along the way is that bad things happen to everyone. EVERYONE goes through massive hardships in their life, and EVERYONE should take pride in the overcoming of the obstacles they've faced thus far. Gay pride is specifically targeting the pride we have in overcoming the hardships that spawned directly from our sexuality. Hardships that wouldn't have existed if we were straight. I understand that it's very easy to make the assumption that because we're a Western country, everything is fine since at least we aren't being murdered for being gay (aside from edge cases), but there is a lot of homophobia that's going on. You may not be able to see most of it because a lot of it is behind closed doors, within families, within social groups, etc., but it is there, and it is much more impactful and destructive than the tip of the iceberg that you see in public (i.e. a gay kid being called a f%%, or something relatively non-impactful like that). It's very sad and I don't believe that "not being murdered" is enough.
: > [{quoted}](name=Arcade Lulu,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=e0fQb1pu,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2019-08-28T19:42:42.686+0000) > > But talking about shampoos and conditioners doesn't make you gay. That's just stereotyping and idiotic. And "all "feminine" men are gays" is also a bs stereotype, because those 2 have NOTHING to do with each other > Personality and personal style have nothing to do with your sexual orientation > Talking about shampoo/conditioner just shows that you care about your personal hygiene > Is caring about personal hygiene gay?? :O > > Men engaging in feminine behavior doesn't make them feminine, or gay > > Nearly not all gays are feminine, there are some really beefy and masculine dudes > > And it honestly seems like that you think being feminine and/or being gay is somehow bad > > Your whole being just screams toxic and fragile masculinity. Sorrynotsorry mistake number 1: I never said that talking about shampoo makes you gay. I said it makes you look feminine, and to not create confusion, the person specified he wasn't gay. Why can you be proud of being gay, but you can't be proud of being strait, o maybe he was insecure, or maybe like most males he finds guy x guy disgusting and wanted to point out he isn't for that, etc? Next, gays being feminine is not a "bs stereotype" is a generalization. That means, most of them are feminine, sure, SOME might be "beefy and masculine" but the vast majority are fucking not. Learn to accept reality. Your issue right now is that you don't accept reality and find it weird when others that accept it act differently than you. I never said men engaging in feminine behavior MAKES them gay, I said it MIGHT CREATE THE IMPRESSION OF THEM BEING GAY. Or to quote myself: "Its not a difficult parallel to draw". It creates an assumption, an impression. It doesn't make you xxx or yyy. >And it honestly seems like that you think being feminine and/or being gay is somehow bad Feminine behavior is "bad" in the sense of you looking for a relationship. You'll have a harder time getting a girl for long term that way (still possible, but more difficult). Otherwise isn't. Being gay is "bad" as you can't produce offsprings (aka: kids). If you don't want kids, being gay isn't "bad". As long as you don't fuck each other in front of me and don't want to nail me, I could care less about what sort of genitals you like. >Your whole being just screams toxic and fragile masculinity. Sorrynotsorry Take a look in the mirror ;) you might find some parts of the above there
> [{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=e0fQb1pu,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-29T03:49:52.921+0000) > > Why can you be proud of being gay, but you can't be proud of being strait, To answer this, it's less of an "I'm proud I like guys," and more of an "I'm proud of pushing through the hardships I've only had to endure because of who I love." There are hundreds of millions of people who despise gays for who they love. Nobody despises straight people for being straight, and even if they did there are no real life repercussions or consequences for being straight.
: > [{quoted}](name=A Latte Trouble,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=e0fQb1pu,comment-id=000400000001,timestamp=2019-08-29T02:46:38.031+0000) > > Maybe in like, Indiana or Texas? Hygiene as basic as shampoo and conditioner isn't viewed as feminine in the eyes of even the most hyper-masculine men I've met. > > It's one thing if they were talking about mani/pedis, which is something typically only gay men are comfortable enough in their masculinity to partake in, but it's shampoo and conditioner, my dude. I'm from New England. Maybe they only seem like hyper-masculine men when they're just the least beta-males you know?
> [{quoted}](name=AllenPCarlson,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=e0fQb1pu,comment-id=0004000000010000,timestamp=2019-08-29T03:22:35.396+0000) > > I'm from New England. Maybe they only seem like hyper-masculine men when they're just the least beta-males you know? Are you seriously implying that barebones hygiene is beta?
: > [{quoted}](name=Arcade Lulu,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=e0fQb1pu,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-08-28T18:12:16.337+0000) > > What does a shampoo or a conditioner have to do with being gay ----------------------------------------------------------------- > [{quoted}](name=GayrensTari,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=e0fQb1pu,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-08-28T17:25:08.818+0000) > > How does certain shampoo associate with gay in your view? For you two. Gays are seen as efeminate/feminine men. Shampoos and conditioners are usually a topic girls talk about and men rarely to never approach as most of us just pick stuff randomly or what was recommended by a close female (sister, wife, mother, grandmother, girlfriend, fiancee, friend, etc). So, talking about them would be seen a a feminine thing to do. So, men engaging in feminine behavior. vs Men that are overall considered feminine, aka. gays. Its not a difficult parallel to draw
> [{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=e0fQb1pu,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-08-28T19:33:33.397+0000) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > For you two. > Gays are seen as efeminate/feminine men. > Shampoos and conditioners are usually a topic girls talk about and men rarely to never approach as most of us just pick stuff randomly or what was recommended by a close female (sister, wife, mother, grandmother, girlfriend, fiancee, friend, etc). So, talking about them would be seen a a feminine thing to do. > > So, men engaging in feminine behavior. > vs > Men that are overall considered feminine, aka. gays. > > Its not a difficult parallel to draw Maybe in like, Indiana or Texas? Hygiene as basic as shampoo and conditioner isn't viewed as feminine in the eyes of even the most hyper-masculine men I've met. It's one thing if they were talking about mani/pedis, which is something typically only gay men are comfortable enough in their masculinity to partake in, but it's shampoo and conditioner, my dude.
IainG10 (EUW)
: If the only way to effectively counter a champion is to have faster than average reactions on an above average net connection, it needs rebalancing. It's exactly the same as the 'just cc him' argument for dealing with Yi, except with even less sense in it.
Pink wards, towers, champion sight radiuses, and certain abilities can expose Rengar, further increasing the window of reaction time. Stop looking at Rengar's .13 burst in a vacuum and realize that counterplay exists in both micro and macro.
: What? His r and passive are the same. Lulu ult blocks both? Don't get crazy now and start making up things to make yourself believe he's stronger than he is.
There's no reason for a squishy target to be walking into an unwarded bush in the first place vs a rengar though. Sure if you play to rengar's strengths (dumbasses walking into unwarded territory) he will kill you. Otherwise he has to play very smart to have a meaningful impact.
PB4UAME (NA)
: Not even going to go into a discussion of power levels, and risk vs reward (why are assassins such minimal risk, massive reward unless their opponents play perfectly, ***AND*** use more resources to do so as well, while the initiative is still firmly in the assassin's place?) but doesn't that extremely binary interaction scream horrendous game design from a few miles away? Either your teammate, not you, as you have exactly 0 agency at this point, but either your teammate is watching you, and reacts within 0.13 seconds, or about half of the average human's reaction time of 0.25 seconds, and you live and kill Rengar, or you're dead with nothing you could have done. Also, if your team simply doesn't have a Lulu, guess you just die. Totally fair, balanced, and clearly good, healthy game-play, right? Except, of course fucking not, its a clusterfuck of absolutely terribly designed interactions all around.
The .13 seconds doesn't include the jump time as far as I'm aware. Not only that but vision wards and champion vision radiuses exist which can completely expose his location, further increasing the reaction window. You can't take the .13 seconds in a vacuum because there are plenty of champions who can do the same amount of burst in the same timeframe. Explain how it is low risk high reward to jump into a team with no real escape? And you're acting like the only support who can deny rengar is Lulu, meanwhile I'm maining Soraka, arguably the worst support to play for denying Rengar, in mid diamond and have no issues. Legit just get better instead of whining about poor design. What is poor design even? The only reason you think he's poor design is because his damage is front loaded, but all you see is "he does big damage really fast" instead of realizing he cant do anything after doing that damage, and if he can't kill his target then he has completely failed and does nothing for the team since his target will likely soon be back to full with the abundance of healing that's in the game atm (redemption, ff, Athenes, ravenous hunter). Not every champion can be beat via micro ("if you dodge my 2 skill shots and land all of your damage you can beat me"). Some champions have to be beat via macro (forcing objectives vs tryndamere, grouping up vs a fed leblanc, etc.) And some will take micro and macro like grouping vs a rengar with vision wards and having enough reaction time to save your squishy teammates when he ults. It adds variety to the matches you play which is good. You shouldn't be able to play the exact same way every match without considering who you're playing against. If you're upset about low counterplay, get upset about Shaco who can do the same damage in the same time frame with Q auto E tiamat electrocute, but without the counterplay of a vision radius OR jump time. As far as agency goes, I'm sorry but complete agency defeats the purpose of a team game.
: 10/10 ad riot, not bullshit at all
There are a lot of legitimate reasons to be upset about eternals, but this isn't one since League is actually free to play.
Yets4240 (NA)
: So one champions passive necessitates that another champion uses their quite impactful AoE ult on a single target, or else they and their team deserves to lose the game (and the target my still die instantly before the ult finishes its cast time, let alone actually goes off) and you're acting like this scenario isn't the exact problem being discussed here?
Yea that's exactly what hes saying. Idk why you think that's unfair. If a non-fed Rengar is in range of a target squishy enough for him to one-shot then he likely used his ulti to do so, therefore it's not unreasonable for Lulu to use hers. In the event that he didn't use his ulti and just jumped from a bush, why was a squishy target walking next to a bush with rengar in it in the first place??
: Reimagining Pantheon, the Unbreakable Spear - Behind the Scenes
vyoda (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=LittleFrosty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YBFq6mNt,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-02T03:43:41.502+0000) > > I believe this item is good on supports that are buying athene unholy {{item:3174}} because of mana regen synergy. Its stats are really good for Janna because her ability requires movement speed. The active itself is definitely good if you have Hecarim {{champion:120}} jg or Twisted Fate {{champion:4}} mid because the movement speed helps a ton in catching up to champions that are trying to escape Okay, thanks! I’ll try building it after Athene’s In some games. Btw I understand Hecarim, but why is it good for {{champion:4}} ?
It allows an otherwise immobile champion to get into gold card range.
: TFT is really fun, but what’s with this ridiculous RNG?
RNG is not inherently bad, and I think it's actually essential to create a non-stressful gamemode ("_I_ didn't really lose, I just got bad RNG"). The only RNG that feels truly bad is the item droprate RNG which I agree should be heavily normalized.
: I'm not touching this mode with a 50ft pole.
The sooner you realize that this isn't ranked LoL and RNG isn't inherently bad, the sooner you will enjoy the game mode.
: As someone who plays a fair amount of Yuumi, she should not exist
She has like, a 45% winrate in plat+ where she supposedly starts getting strongest (52% after EIGHTY games played). She's not too strong. The stats she gives are practically nonexistent until she gets a deathcap/maxes W. Her susceptibility to ganks is entirely dependent on her ADC's pick, her Q is easy to hit in lane, but is useless when she gets engaged on. If she's truly too strong, it is in the highest echelons of play, and I don't feel is fair to balance the rest of the game around that .2% of players. > The only thing I could think of is to make her lane phase much worse If you're arguing bad design, then I sort of agree. Give her a different Q or W passive entirely. She doesnt need net nerfs though, she needs a mini rework. Nerfing her early will completely dumpster a champion who already has a subpar wr throughout the entire match. The only thing more unfun than a difficult to dodge Q by a squishy immobile target, is having to 1v2 a lane because Yuumi apparently isnt allowed to have the capabilities to survive lane.
: Is not being toxic really necessary to get high Gold/Plat?
You'll have to put more effort in if you're toxic cause you'll tilt you teammates, but it's not necessary to be nice I guess? This is kind of a weird question lol
: Can we buff grievous wounds?
Grievous wounds is already incredibly strong though. If they ever made GW less accessible or harder to apply, I'd be cool with buffing the healing reduction, but 40% healing reduction is insane with how easy it is to apply for every champion except enchanters.
: Blitz and Thresh make great counters to Yuumi, but you can ban them and/or deal with them. In fact, you're really good at baiting out hooks and then dodging them. She has good and bad matchups, but at levels of play where anyone but the best champs aren't pocket picks she isn't so hard countered by such a variety of champs as to be relegated to only a pocket pick. We'll see how it develops once people learn how to fight against her. I don't think you're wrong about anything, but I disagree with the conclusion.
I think it's a matter of small sample sizes on my part. I can theorize all I want about playing vs. hook champions, but it's actually playing vs. them that will allow me to formulate a more accurate opinion.
Tiger58 (NA)
: I can confirm Zeke's is good if your ADC is high damage (or you have a dps ad solo laner) and if those conditions aren't met don't play Yuumi in the first place
She's surprisingly good with juggernauts I've noticed, so I was thinking zeke's may be good with them. Again haven't tried it so I'm not certain.
: Honestly it sounds like "Play this champ that requires a massive amount of work with horrid ap scaling, two shot by every ability in the game, and horrid base damage and mana, or just play literally any other support, even a galio support, hell even Heim support, and have an easier, more fun, less stressful experience with a higher chance to win, and the ability to actually defend yourself if everything goes to shit, you can also do damage." I've gone 8-2-14 on Yuumi and gotten an S, and honestly it was a lot of work, I honestly don't think we would've even won if it wasn't for Olaf ulting when I did.
Yeah, it's exactly what it sounds like. She's not weak, but you put in a lot more effort to achieve results similar to other enchanters. The issue is that if she's stronger, putting in that effort will achieve results that outclass pretty much every other enchanter; even moreso on coordinated teams.
: I play in both Diamond I and in Silver. I know acutely what I'm talking about.
That's fine, but that's still not plat so there's a rank discrepancy between our two experiences (which is what I was getting at, not that you played in Silver). It's obviously not something I can prove, but I feel player mindsets shift pretty massively between ranks, and I felt even when I was low, low, diamond that players had a shift in mentality to being _the_ solo carry on the team. I haven't really had that issue in plat. There are definitely a couple individual players who think they're the solo carry no matter how shitty their play or KDA is, but it's uncommon for everyone on the team to have that mindset. Again, it could also be luck with the players I'm getting in my matches.
: I don't really understand how she would function as a pocket pick when her kit is so generalist in nature.
She works well with mobile, wombo comps, and vs. passive supports that allow her to safely reach mid-game (which I feel is when she really starts to shine). I guess by pocket pick I mean that you don't really want her to be your main support because she's not too good into current meta supports like Naut, Thresh, and Pyke.
: A good detailed analysis. I'll put in my own two cents, most of which agrees with OP. In laning, against someone like Thresh, detach when w is off cooldown to fish for a passive proc and to bait out abilities. When you see the hook coming jump back immediately. Use q as much as you can, the poke is good to have. The basic pattern is w --> q --> detach --> proc passive --> repeat. If your heal is down and a skillshot would spell death for your adc, you can hop off and tank it, then hop back on for the escape. Later in the game, you mostly want to attach to a mobile bruiser or adc with decent range. Your job is to make sure no one dies over extended fights. In a fast, comitted fight you're pretty much just a heal bot with some cc, so jump to whoever is low and hit that e button like there's no tomorrow. Use e whenever someone drops below 50%, but try to make sure have 2 charges going into a teamfight to keep whomever gets focused alive as long as possible. If you get into a teamfight with 0-1 charges, you don't contribute much. Build {{item:3174}} first, then I like to finish {{item:3092}} and buy {{item:3158}}. This is a point where I disagree with OP -- not having move speed when you need to cross some space yourself to move to a different target is bad, as later in the game you want to spend as little time as possible exposed. After that I currently go {{item:3116}} then {{item:3107}}. The HP lets you take one or two non-cc hits while if your buddy dies, but mostly is wasted. However, the empowered heals and shields speak for themselves, and the extra slow on your q is huge for catching people out/cleaning up stragglers. After that I finish with {{item:3089}}, as you pretty much have all the stats you need, may as well make your chip damage a little more meaningful. I'm still experimenting with items, so I don't know how optimal this is but it has worked for me. Yuumi is not super strong, but she isn't super weak either. The new buffs were huge and put her in a healthy place. She is way, way better if you are able to communicate with your allies -- far better in premades than solo queue. She is already one of my favorite champions to play, and I give huge props to Riot for making a champion who is fun without being toxic.
Really good addition to my post. Playing vs hard engage/hook champions is much riskier but my opinion is starting to be turned from "never pick Yuumi into hard engage" to "avoid picking Yuumi into hard engage unless you really wanna play her." There are definitely better champs into a Thresh or Blitz, but it isn't instalose even if your adc can't dodge well. I think we're mostly in agreement as far as movespeed goes. I go magical footwear and don't upgrade my boots, which feels like enough when I'm rarely detached come mid-game. I also build aether wisp items as I tend to go a traditional support build with Ardent/Twin Shadows, so I get movespeed from that as well. I like Rylai's for your ult, but slows don't stack so it doesn't apply an additional slow to your Q. I'm on the fence as to whether it's worth it over, say, Ardent/Mikael's or a higher AP item like Spellbinder.
: You are not correct. Yuumi players are generally playing her correct. What is NOT correct is how her TEAM is playing. I just had a 22/5 domination game turn into a loss, because team literally dragged it out, even after we destroyed 2 of their inhibitors. Hec went a troll build with Stoneplate + Iceborne. Top Urgot literally ended game with 2700 LESS gold than me as Yuumi. MF ADC afk farmed top entire game after we dominated lane. Lissandra mid practically began int diving Udyr/Riven. They literally inted 4 fights in a row. This is what's happening EVERY game. People run around like chickens, and believe they are solo carries. In reality: They are bad solo carries playing on teams that usually have a hypercarry support. They're used to casually winning without doing their jobs. They don't play as a team, and instead play lottery. Riot introduces a champ that does well with team play. Other players continue to play yolo Solo carry. Other players create feed fest (even in won games) Other players scale less, lose, and blame Yuumi.
It's possible that our differing opinions are because of a team MMR difference. I'm not that much higher than you, but usually in my mid-plat matches people are pretty good about playing around Yuumi. Like, actually a lot better than I expected with how much of a clown fiesta plat matches usually are. It's also possible I'm also just getting lucky with my teams. Thanks for the input!
: This is good advice and I think Yuumi's kit has some potential with the utility on Q/E/R, but I don't think this champion is going to do well without more buffs and people's concerns are valid. I've been going over her math compared to other supports in multiple threads and it doesn't look good. I'll just cover some of the stuff in this post. (On the topic of E scaling) "Just saying she's only getting 10% Ap ratio and that can multiply up to a measly 30% if your current HP is insanely low. 10-30% AP is weak as hell when you consider other champions don't have to have the condition of their target being low to have a decent heal. Nami W has 25% consistently, Soraka is a 60% ratio consistently (with hp cost), and Sona is giving a 25% ratio heal, 30% ratio shield. And given the % missing hp thing, Yuumi is most likely going to get 25-30% ratio on the first cast, 15-25% ratio on the second depending on the target's hp and how the hidden math actually calculates it. We're talking 55% at most here and that's assuming the heals aren't doing enough to mitigate the damage, if its healing well we're looking at more a 40% ratio. Which is better than one Nami W, but if you factor Nami W can bounce to another ally she potentially has a 50% ratio on her heal. Like every time I look at Yuumi's math she's just outclassed by other supports that exist. Riot was way too conservative with her, I guess they assumed her being untargetable would be broken but in reality it often just feels like a 4v5 whenever her cds are off." Context: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-discussion/A2YWUpNN-quinn-and-yuumi-combo-bot-is-beyond-broken?comment=000200010000 (On the topic of Q damage) "Lulu has 2 waves of 80 damage that can hit the same target and it slows by 80%(slowly decaying) for 2s at around 1000 range Lux has an E that does 60 damage and sets up a passive proc that will deal about that amount with a big AoE slow at around 1100 range Janna Q is actually AoE, goes 1700 range, knocks up and deals 60 damage. She also has her W which scales on speed and offers a longer more reliable 24% slow at 55 damage, albeit at 550 range. Yuumi's 60 maximum damage starts looking impressive here, but when you compare utility and reliability Janna is still winning here. Karma has an 80 damage Q that slows for 1.5 seconds by 25% and can be mantra'd for an additional 25 or 75 damage at 1100 range Yuumi Q is a max of 1150 range and its range is tied to the adc. All of the comparable abilities here other than Janna W which is the biggest outlier are AoE and do more damage. Lulu and Karma have comparable levels of utility both offering speed boosts and very strong defense steroids. Even Janna who is pure enchanter is doing more damage on basic abilities. Yuumi's safety is coming from W primarily. Sure 1100 range is fine, but when you consider the range isn't actually from the cast position but your active one your adc is likely going to move backwards after you cast it putting it in the 950-1100 range rather than the 1150 its set up as. And your reward for drifting around the minions with the slow projectile? 60 damage or less with a 1.25s slow. I will say its a superior slow for value at 40%, so the hotfix is substantial since its not barely 5% more than these other slows... though when you consider Lulu is in the enchanter class and is doing a much superior slow at almost the same range with much superior damage AND has a better safety net with E + R than Yuumi's 2 E's, I have to question why Yuumi Q has such a pathetic reward for taking the risk of casting it from a distance. And if you don't acknowledge it at a risk, I will say as an adc if you're casting it from further than 500 range its very easy to see coming and I can step backwards or sit in the minions where the Q will be forced to drift into one due to its slow projectile speed and predictable curve. Casting it at closer range is the only way to reliably stick this thing and it's going to do much less damage for it, wheras none of the prior supports have this issue." Context: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/zMEigF76-yuumi-more-like-yuusless-xd?comment=000400000000 TL;DR - Yuumi has pretty bad math compared to typical supports. Her unique strength of W and the big range on R allowing her to reliably root 2-3 people in a fight are the main saving graces of this champion. Q/E really should do more in order to enable this champion to be great rather than a champion that feels like an extra item for the ADC. Even in that context someone like Lulu or Janna almost always does more damage both individually and through buffing their adc.
I'm currently of the opinion that despite her low numbers, she's very strong out of lane and OK but vulnerable in lane. Her low ratios I believe are to compensate for the fact that she can get more AP via who she's attached to with her W. Her E, while pretty weak in lane, is actually very strong out of lane due to the 2 charges. It allows her to very easily get 2 max charge athene's heals which adds 300-500 in total to her heal rotation, in addition it means she can apply ardent to multiple people at once. Her Q is actually pretty awesome for catching people out, chasing, and scouting, and the damage is surprisingly good at poking and getting easy spellthief's procs. I think if she were to get a buff, increasing her base attack range to 550 would be enough to make her feel less vulnerable and give her more incentive to be apart from the ADC to auto. I'd definitely avoid buffing her Q because of how fuckin annoying it would get if it was much stronger.
: Why are people acting like she's the lee sin of supports? lol. Once you realize how limited you are while attached, she's actually quite straightforward and playing her optimally AT BEST puts you on par with other low tier enchanters. There's not some 200 IQ strat we're all missing here, she's just bad, it's that simple. Also can these "guides" stop telling people to not build boots? You need boots to ward and clear vision effectively, buy fucking boots.
It's not like boots are useless on her, but the gold is better spent on pretty much anything else. Magical footwear is a really good rune on her imo because she has no need for early boots, nor does she need to upgrade them. Also I agree with you as far as difficulty goes. ANY enchanter is going to be easier than a Lee Sin or a Zed to play at a high level. She, however, is a high skill cap champion for an enchanter, the only other one coming even somewhat close being Nami who is not hard aside from hitting bubbles consistently. If your opinion is that she's bad, that's cool. I think she's very effective when played optimally, which is why I'm not wanting buffs atm, but obviously if she's still underwhelming after a couple weeks, some number adjustments should definitely be on the table.
: > [{quoted}](name=A Latte Trouble,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jr0FRtnG,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-05-16T22:05:03.130+0000) > > I 100% hear what you're saying and I partially agree. I mean, ANY champion CAN be one tricked. > The issue I have with one tricking Yuumi is that her counters counter her harder than any other support. Sona, for example, is countered by Blitz pretty hard because of how squishy she is, but not so hard that I wouldn't pick Sona into a blitz if I one tricked Sona. Yuumi is doubly countered by hard engage champions due to the nature of her kit. If blitz hooks her ADC while she's attached, blitz just got 2 hooks for the price of one. > In addition, shes relying on her ADC's ability to dodge hooks and play smart as opposed to Sona who is relying on her own ability. > I appreciate your input and I think we're mostly on the same page as far as one tricking her goes, I'm just personally of the opinion that she's better as a pocket pick. Well using the blitz example if you see the hook coming you detach before the hook, don't think hooks make him a harder counter , not to mention if the adc is like ezreal for example hooks shouldnt matter anyways. if its something immobile like ash you can even take the hook, detach proc another shield, relink and heal up. blitz hooks are not gonna 1 shot you and certainly not gonna one shot you, if you think your adc is gonna get hooked you detach. One the flip side if blitz misses a hook you can punish him especially hard with yuumi.
You're correct in theory, and it's possible that you're right that she doesn't get doubly countered as I currently feel she does. I'll wait a bit before passing judgement on her one trick potential.
: Maybe it's the ADC's I play, but I'm very not impressed with Yuumi at all. {{champion:15}} {{champion:22}} and every so often {{champion:21}}
Miss Fortune is ok with Yuumi, and I believe sivir is alright too, but they definitely aren't optimal ADCs I wouldnt pick Yuumi if my ADC chose any of those except maybe MF.
: Sounds like a lot of work just to not immediately lose lane. Which means she underpowered. She needs some serious number tuning.
To be fair, she is made to be a difficult champion to play well, evidenced by her difficulty scaling on her champion page. When played optimally, she is very strong and really has few weaknesses, so I think it would be a bad idea to buff her numbers. Keep in mind that due to the fact that she attaches to her adc, ADCs as a whole have to get used to playing "as" Yuumi. Her numbers may be a bit low but currently it's just too risky to buff her further when her winrate is being artificially lowered by the weird skill curve that she and her ADC have to learn.
: Agree with everything but the pocket pick statement purely because that can apply to every champion but S tier ones. Also i think its far too early for statements like "she is not designed to be one tricked".
I 100% hear what you're saying and I partially agree. I mean, ANY champion CAN be one tricked. The issue I have with one tricking Yuumi is that her counters counter her harder than any other support. Sona, for example, is countered by Blitz pretty hard because of how squishy she is, but not so hard that I wouldn't pick Sona into a blitz if I one tricked Sona. Yuumi is doubly countered by hard engage champions due to the nature of her kit. If blitz hooks her ADC while she's attached, blitz just got 2 hooks for the price of one. In addition, shes relying on her ADC's ability to dodge hooks and play smart as opposed to Sona who is relying on her own ability. I appreciate your input and I think we're mostly on the same page as far as one tricking her goes, I'm just personally of the opinion that she's better as a pocket pick.
: You know they buffed her right? Like yesterday?
People are still complaining and dodging when she's in champion select, quoting her low winrate, and Yuumi players are still making dumb mistakes on her.
Rioter Comments
: Wanna climb? Dodging is important part of it and it will speed it up
Just so you guys are aware, there's a multi-search feature for op.gg where you can search for all 5 summoners in a champion select at once by just copying and pasting the chat text that pops up when your team enters a lobby. https://na.op.gg/multi/query= SUPER useful for dodging.
: To all the people saying yuumi is uninspired what did you expect?
People say this with every single champion release. They look at 1 ability in a vacuum and compare it to 1 ability that already exists, instead of looking at the champion as a whole.
: Boards care about the state of the game much more than any other big forum. Reddit has esports and everything else is irrelevant. It's obvious then that the most heated discussions will take place on Boards. The fact that sometimes this "heat" goes too far does not excuse Riot from insulting us. Besides, it's not like problems Boards have with the game are not unjustified. Things like recent Yasuo not receiving nerfs in the same patch as crit items buffs should absolutely never happen. Boards WILL point things like that out because nobody else cares.
> [{quoted}](name=Curious Melody,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XtuMf3Ip,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-02-23T14:23:54.592+0000) > > Boards care about the state of the game much more than any other big forum. Reddit has esports and everything else is irrelevant. It's obvious then that the most heated discussions will take place on Boards. The fact that sometimes this "heat" goes too far does not excuse Riot from insulting us. > Besides, it's not like problems Boards have with the game are not unjustified. Things like recent Yasuo not receiving nerfs in the same patch as crit items buffs should absolutely never happen. Boards WILL point things like that out because nobody else cares. An echo chamber of uneducated bashing =/= "heated discussions." Obviously there are good discussions here on occasion, but far too many posts are just upvote farming a popular opinion and insulting Riot employees.
: Yup, she super hard counters anyone who needs to target for their abilities. Pretty bad champ design tbh
She doesn't now that they changed her reshroud time.
: What if we gave Akali the Azir treatment?
The "under tower" part of Akali's w is hardly where the frustration stems from. They already dealt with the issue of not being able to use targeted abilities/autos on her when she pops out of the shroud, so any frustration people are feeling now is likely just left over from pre-nerf shroud.
Khabith (NA)
: People would complain more about talon if he was a new champion....
Tbh make his E only castable out of combat, then make his passive damage start out smaller and scale better than it does now, evening out at level 9.
: really? that's a better passive than what he has now.
It was a shitton of invisible power. Gave him a sizeable HP regen aura to all allies, including his turrets.
: Mikaels is extremely unforgiving outside of high elo
I'm not sure I agree. It's certainly not bought very often in low elo, but that's less because players are bad at utilizing it and more because low elo players don't realize how incredibly powerful the active effect is. It's in a good spot where it's at, especially since even if you mess up the active, it gives decent stats.
: Riot's at it again! Blatant over the top sexualized champion! Sylas the Magic of Hunky Studs
Nearly everyone who visits these boards, including myself, agrees with you, so there's not going to be any meaningful "discussion."
: I Miss Swain
Bruh, Swain's rework is bomb.
: PSA: Zyra and Brand are NOT supports
PSA: This isn't the meta that I like so it's _**wrong**_!
: Agreed, and not only does she get the summoner spells, she gets the active items too. So it's like "We know Summoner Spells are some of the most powerful abilities available to champions, so Zoe not only gets to use everyone else's, she also needs active items from those champions too, because her kit isn't frontloaded enough."
How is her kit "frontloaded" in any way?
: Zoe is the definition of unfun design
Wow, what? We still have threads complaining about a completely balanced champion who has clear counterplay in nearly every aspect of her kit?
: So,in addition to Ornn's Passive "adjustment",he's getting better Resistances than Wukong's Passive
I agree that they rotate who's strong to keep the game fresh. I dont think many people would disagree with that, but you're missing the fact that Ornn is a tank and Wukong is an assassin/diver. The moderate amount of flat stats that Wukong gets would be garbage on a tank who already builds a lot of Armor/MR, but it's valuable for someone who doesnt build any. Whether Wukong needs a new passive or not is debatable, but he's legitimately strong right now and you cant compare two abilities on two separate champions in a vacuum and just say that Wukong needs to be buffed or changed because X ability on Y champion is better than B ability on C champion. Additionally, Neeko is hardly even comparable to Wukong. Yes, they both have a wombo ult and a clone, but they're entirely different classes and play/build way differently from eachother. Additionally, Neeko's ult literally has a 1.5-3 second wind up time. HOW is that instant? I'm going to assume that you just dont know what Neeko does yet because she's new, but in that case you shouldn't be complaining about something you don't know much about.
: > [{quoted}](name=DeIli,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HkyvGeEg,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-11-20T11:22:04.801+0000) > > Is Illaoi being straight "forced"? Is it only forced because you assume everyone's hetero until proven otherwise? I'm confused. Her being lesbian and/or having lesbian encounters is never mentioned in her biography. Not even once. To suddenly have her going around and want to shag several females out of the blue is suspicious to say the least.
> [{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=HkyvGeEg,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-11-20T11:25:51.498+0000) > > Her being lesbian and/or having lesbian encounters is never mentioned in her biography. Not even once. > > To suddenly have her going around and want to shag several females out of the blue is suspicious to say the least. Wow...It's almost like her sexuality doesn't have to be pertinent to her lore in order for it to be a part of her character...Just like...real life...
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A Latte Chaos

Level 195 (NA)
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