Arakadia (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=AQA473,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=0GmEMgzE,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-09-21T04:14:55.678+0000) > > Swain says that? ~~shuffles off to write down lesbian headcanon for fiora~~ > > Someone mentioned Jihn earlier. I guess it was canonized (word of god, of course) but then I said that he's a psychopathic serial killer and that he's not really the best ace/aro rep for that reason. > > You're right, any number of champions could be ace, and this post is my argument for Nidalee. I might make one for another champion in the future. My eye's currently on Kai'Sa because she passed by my league displays while I was writing my post and it got me thinking. And a lot of people don't want to accept it but Fiora probably is a lesbian/ace. Some people (try to) interpret as she just has more important things to focus on in her House, as she is very ambitious. However he says: > "She's spurned so many suitors. A wonder they did not see why." Swain steals **secrets**. Her being an ambitious women is not a secret. And everybody knows she is ambitious, the suitors would have seen this and acknowledged it. Her being a lesbian/ace though, that could be a secret the suitors did not pick up on. Jhin being asexual isn't technically canon as far as I know. Lots of people accept it as such, and he probably doesn't have any desire for sex or relationships, but I don't think its actually canon that he is ace. And sure its not great representation, but not all ace characters need to be good rep. Unless its like the majority of ace characters are bad to the point where ace is associated with bad. I like the work and thought you've put into this, but I don't know if your going to get a lot of constructive or positive responses on the boards unfortunately. Any time someone brings up sexuality a lot of people like to whine about _**"But what if its forced!??!"**_ as an excuse to dismiss sexuality as a character trait. If you do make another post about something similar to this, you might need to cater a bit more to the board's sensitivity to the topic.
Thank you for all that insight! I don't know a lot about Swain so I don't know if I would have ever found that stuff out. I've headcanoned Fiora as gay since I started playing league, but that's because I view the world as gay until proven otherwise (I'm often proven otherwise). I don't think all qu#er characters need to be good guys, either. But if Jihn's the only one, that's a problem. There needs to be a balance, or, preferably, more good guys than bad ones. Otherwise, like you said, we get stereotypes. Which we already deal with in society. Everyone thinks %%%%%%%%%s are gay men and shit like that. I figured I wouldn't get a lot of traction in the boards, but I don't know where else to take this sort of stuff. Reddit? I honestly don't know. I'm also not too familiar with the boards themselves. I don't spend a lot of time here and the posts I have put here get downvoted to oblivion. Got any advice on how I can cater my language to the culture of the boards?
: While I don't disagree that we could use some more representation in the game, turning Nidalee into an asexual is not really the way to go for me. ___________________ Nidalee, for many people, has been associated with sex for a really long time. The jokes about mating season, that there was the rumored hidden passive that she gives bonus exp to underleveled champions around her and so on. Changing her now into being completely unrelated and uninterested in sexuality seems a bit drastic of a change for me here. __________________ Like some already stated, there already are asexual champions in the game, so the situation is not as bad as it seems. And while you made the argument about Jhin being a mass murderer, there is also the point that Jhin is actually a really popular champion when it comes to his thematic. He is one of Riot's masterpieces and he represents asexuality, so I don't know if him being one really makes it "problematic".... But sure, let's add more to the list. I just think there are better candidates than Nidalee for this. Just to give some examples: {{champion:61}} Has been a real girl formerly, but she had to replace her entire body with Hextech. We don't even know if she is still **capable** of having sex anymore, not to mention if she would actually want to. {{champion:112}} He is a scientist trying to improve humanity as a whole. Nothing in his story shows any hint that he might have any sexual desires. I could imagine him being the type who just wants to sit in his lab and research, not getting disturbed by sexual desires at al. {{champion:133}} She is a scout in the lands of Noxus and actually spends most of her time with her bird companion Valor. I can see her as someone who is purely driven by duty and doesn't have any sexual interests. Nothing about her story, quotes, or anything shows that she has any sexuality currently either. See, I just think picking champions which are not already intertwined with sexuality would be a better representation for asexuality. Because it would feel less forced. If you turn Nidalee into an asexual, then I think there could happen what you probably fear, too. People will complain, since they are changing Nidalee from being connected to sex to be completely unconnected to sex. Meanwhile these other champions.... if Riot would tell me now that they are asexual, then I could just think "Yeah, I can see that. In their story they could always have been asexual and we just didn't know, now they just have chosen to **show** this detail about their personality that was always there, but hidden".
Jihn's still bad, to me. I don't really think it matters how popular a character is? And Nid is definitely high profile, if that's something we're discussing. But, if anything, Jihn being a fan favorite is worse because that means a lot of people like this serial killer, know what he is, and now have _that_ as their analogue for asexuality. "Yeah, asexuals are totally psychopathic. Makes sense." I wholeheartedly disagree that a champion's popularity determines whether or not they're a good model for _any_ kind of representation. Orianna certainly seems interested in the opposite-programmed sex in her lore update. I totally agree with you that she could have been ace, but Riot clearly didn't think so. Aside from that, a person's inability to have sex does not make them asexual, and vice versa, and that's sort of a damaging archetype to have. Your argument for why Viktor would be good ace rep is the argument of "workaholics are so productive because they're ace," which is an actual stereotype ace people deal with. Plenty of workaholics are allo. A person being driven or obsessed or determined or productive is not dependent on their sexuality or lack thereof. For that reason, I think Viktor is a poor choice. Not that it's impossible, just that it's unnecessary. That said, ace people don't really dedicate time to pursuing or even thinking about sexual encounters so that could certainly make them better at the things they value. For _this_ reason, Quinn is the best example you have. She isn't a workaholic, exactly, and is specifically driven because of the tragedies she's suffered in her life. She cares deeply for her country but knows how to pace herself. She's realistic and feels more like an everyman. However, she still doesn't work because Riot doesn't think she does. She has one of the Heartseeker skins, likely because she's hot and shoots arrows, but that still feels like a really fu#king weird skin to give an ace person. All this to say that Nidalee's past sexualization, her seeming role as sex icon of League of Legends, is _precisely_ why I think she would be great ace/aro rep. She's an actual good person, doesn't have a Heartseeker skin, is due for a visual update because of her summoner-targeted lines, and would most certainly be de-sexualized across the board during that update. But, I'm sure she'd still be quite sexy and attractive. Making her ace would be a wonderful reversal of expectations and stereotypes. I explain all this at the end of my post but I will reiterate as many times as necessary. Her being sexual in her original version is _why_ I think she would be a great ace character in an updated version. And for all the people who would cry about her mating lines and sh1t, they can f#ck right off.
Krizonar (NA)
: As a person who _is_ asexual, Nidalee's lines would need to be changed for this to be a thing I think at least, since I can't see myself saying anything remotely close to something like 'it's mating season' in the course of my lifetime. Fairly, many older champions could use line updates, but such a line update may change the flavor of the champion since the lines at least have quite a sexual undertone. That said, as for her story, can't say it's not possible from what I remember reading of her, though many champion stories lack sexuality faceted content as well, fairly.
Yeah, this theory is based on her current lore state, not her in-game presentation. I don't even discuss her lines in this post. I just mention that they aren't considered because they'd have to be changed anyway. She still talks to the summoner, which is a thing Riot's been working on removing over the last few years. I think her and MF are the only ones left. There are probably a number champions who could be ace/aro, but Nid is the one I'm talking about in this post. She just reads that way to me, personally. I started looking into this because I was thinking about league pairings I ship, since it's something I'm very passionate about and I was thinking of a new fanfic pairing to write for, and realized I didn't ship Nid with anyone, despite her being quite attractive and having been around so long. I was like, "why don't I have any Nid ships?" And it hit me. I think she's ace. So, here we are. Again, there's probably other/better champs to theorize as ace/aro, but nid is the one I'm talking about today.
: > [{quoted}](name=AQA473,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=0GmEMgzE,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-09-21T05:32:34.082+0000) > > Well, um, thank you for commenting and giving me your time, it's greatly appreciated, but I must ask you to read the whole post before reattempting to discuss it. Evelynn is definitely _not_ what I'm "looking for." > > tl;dr before you read my post in its entirety, this post is specifically to argue in favor of an asexual/aromantic reading of Nidalee. I'm not "looking for" anything. I want Nidalee to be ace/aro. Specifically Nidalee, specifically ace/aro. > > Evelynn's like an incorporeal misery demon that uses sex to highten her victims' happiness before killing them slowly and painfully. Whether or not she feels sexual satisfaction or gratification is, to my knowledge, unknown. I reread it, your opening paragraphs are about how you want League to have its first ace/aro character, and that you think it could/should be Nidalee. Your closing paragraphs say that Nidalee is a good choice because she has been in the game for a long time and is considered to be sexualized but doesn't act that way in the lore. Evelynn is ace/aro. She uses her sex appeal and charm magic to attract prey and feeds on their pain as she tortures them, but isn't interested in them sexually or romantically. She is also a character that has been in the game for a long time and is considered to be sexualized. You say that your post "is specifically to argue in favor of an asexual/aromantic reading of Nidalee" and if it read that way I probably wouldn't have commented, but in the post itself you say "a desire to see more representation in a game I love." That is why I see it as "looking for" something. You already have that thing.
Okay, fair enough, that's certainly a more... literal way of looking at it. I mean, if you read the comments, Jihn's actually been confirmed ace/aro, but I told them why that's a problem and that still stands for Evelynn, if not moreso. Evelynn, unlike Jihn, was not confirmed ace/aro (to my knowledge, anyway). Like Jihn, she's a homicidal sociopath that feeds on the misery of others. Like, literally _feeds_. She eats sorrow. That's not very positive representation. It's like how all the villains in disney are qu#er coded. Look, gay people are evil! Look, asexuals are psychopathic serial killers! Get what I mean? And I really should removed the "Nid should be first ace/aro" champ since she apparently isn't. My desire to make this discussion thread was because I wanted Nidalee specifically to be ace/aro, but then I started to pull out all the lines I use in academic essays. It works most of the time. But I can see how that message got lost along the way. Regardless, I do want Nidalee specifcally to be ace/aro, Evelynn is evil and is therefore horrible rep especially if the only ace rep are two serial killers, and even if none of that were true, what's wrong with **one more** ace/aro character? There's 582359385 cishet champs and side characters in the league universe. What's three or five or seven asexual champions? The more there are, the more varied their rep can be. Like having two killers, for instance. That's fine if there's some good guy asexuals to balance it out. In this sense, there is no "you already have that thing." Because it's not a check mark. It's not like "alright we got our asexual in the game, NEXT." This is a process of inclusion and visibility. The more there are, the more varied forms of representation, such as ethnicity and gender expression and sexuality, the better. There isn't some invisible quota. This has to keep going. And my argument above specifically pertains to Nidalee, who I honest-to-god view as ace/aro. And this is my argument _for_ that.
: So, I am not at my computer right now and don't have time to double check myself as I should, but isn't Evelynn already what you want? Evelynn is canonically a virgin, I believe because she has no sexual or romantic interest in people and that is a reversal of expectations. Didn't give your post full attention due to lack of time but I think that was the gist of it.
Well, um, thank you for commenting and giving me your time, it's greatly appreciated, but I must ask you to read the whole post before reattempting to discuss it. Evelynn is definitely _not_ what I'm "looking for." tl;dr before you read my post in its entirety, this post is specifically to argue in favor of an asexual/aromantic reading of Nidalee. I'm not "looking for" anything. I want Nidalee to be ace/aro. Specifically Nidalee, specifically ace/aro. Evelynn's like an incorporeal misery demon that uses sex to highten her victims' happiness before killing them slowly and painfully. Whether or not she feels sexual satisfaction or gratification is, to my knowledge, unknown.
: My argument was not about being "educated" to follow the "circle of life". It was that the main focus of Nidalee as a character, it's about a creature that follows her wild animals instincts, and since the sexual instinct is one of those instincts, it would be contradictory to have her not following that one basic instinct. Sex and Gender arent a choice that the creatures can make for themselves, but Riot has to choose the Gender and Sex of a character when they create a character. From a lore point of view, it would be strange for Riot to "make her" Asexual, when that clashes with this idea of a character that follows all the animal instincts. Saying "Well, she follows all the instincts, except this one in particular for x reason" its simply unnesesary and contradictory. I do like your idea of a character who feels that has to do something, when the nature of that character tells it to do the contrary... but i dont think that Nidalee should be that character, the diference here is that you see her as the human child and i see her as the animal. Yes, im aware that she was born human, but i believe that the core of her character is about her animal nature and her humanity should not contradict that. ((By the way, i want to mention that i cant make downvotes since my NA account is low lvl))
That's certainly interesting. But I actually don't know if "primal instinct" _is_ her main character trait anymore. If you read her new bio and short story, it seems that Riot is really pushing the "defender of Kumungu jungle and hater of humans" angle. All her new appearances are about murdering poachers. >Raised in the deepest jungle, Nidalee is a master tracker who can shapeshift into a ferocious cougar at will. Neither wholly woman nor beast, she viciously defends her territory from any and all trespassers, with carefully placed traps and deft spear throws. She cripples her quarry before pouncing on them in feline form—the lucky few who survive tell tales of a wild woman with razor-sharp instincts, and even sharper claws... She's called Nidalee the Bestial Huntress and her universe page quote is "The untamed know no fear." Nidalee, now, is more about being wild, defending Kumungu, being half-human and half-beast, and being this sort of weird in-between race with no place in the world except where she chooses to be. Raised in Kumungu, she has chosen the jungle to protect and defend. >Even now, the dense forests remain the last truly untamed wilderness in the known world, and something of an enigma even to Nidalee. Still, in rare, quiet moments, the huntress finds herself dwelling on her own origins—and her encounter with the Kiilash—and whether she will learn the truth behind any of it… She could totally be ace and it wouldn't harm her story. Her in-game lines need to change regardless, and those lines are the last vestiges of this pure instinct character trait. Plus, that's a boring theme to present in a character, anyway. And it's damaging. And yes, I see the "with razor-sharp instincts" line but I don't think that's referencing an animal instinct theme in her character foundation. I'd say Yuumi's a better "animal instinct" candidate because her whole character is about being a sentient cat that has a hard time staying on task because she's so busy being a cat.
: A lot of people don't care about representation. Straight people don't care, gay people don't care. Males, females, non-binary individuals, don't care. I'm a Pansexual female that identifies as non-binary/male and I don't care. My gaming experience would not be enhanced if there was a Pansexual champion in the game. I didn't care when Neeko was added. I didn't care when Valmar and Kai were added. I wouldn't care if Nid was confirmed Asexual. I'm not going to play a champion because they're the same sexuality as me, or because they represent who I am as a person. The vast majority of the playerbase, no matter who/what they are, feel the same way. They don't like people trying to force diversity or representation, because they'd prefer if it happen _naturally_. As in, Riot adding a champion who identifies as X sexuality because _they_ want to, not because the community _demanded_ it, and not changing pre-determined lore to match the demands of the playerbase. Of course, there will always be people that flat out hate representation, but that is very much likely not the only reason why people are downvoting this. Like I said, just saying "Tumblr" is enough because people don't like it(and you're kind of showing why people don't like it). People could also just, like I said, not agree with you, and that could be for multiple reasons.
And that's you, and that's fine. But representation isn't about _you_, it's about _everyone_. It's about education. It's about making people who feel alone and misunderstood feel like someone's listening, like they aren't the only ones. It's about showing people what minority individuals are really like, that they are everywhere, can be anyone. Like you. I mistook you for a cishet "because." Those on the qu#er spectrum are everywhere. The more representation, the better. At least, that's my opinion. I will always push for more no matter what and no one will ever change my mind on it. I've dedicated my life and education to it; I'm not about to stop now. Let people hate on tumblr. They won't know what it's really like until they make an account and hang our there for a week, anyway. I have no obligation to give people the politically correct, sensitive crybaby description of tumblr. That's not up to me and that's not what this post is about. I just made the original post on tumblr and was complaining about the formatting of league boards. Plus, I also tell people when I'm cross-posting. Naturally doesn't cut it. Or, more that naturally doesn't exist. There's 144 champions in league and many of them were originally meant to be qu#er (Diana/leona, Taliyah, probably some others) but the original writers chickened out or were told by higher-ups that it was too risky. If an unconfirmed champion from the old lore was suddenly given a het romance (many of whcih have been), no one would bat an eye. No one would, no one has said "don't change pre-determined lore." Because cishet is the default, the status quo, tradition, the majority, it's what we're used to. I didn't hear shit when they gave Orianna a new robot boyfriend to help her rediscover her humanity (manic pixie dream boy). But no, when someone says, "nid could be ace?" everyone jumps on them and tell them to shut up and deal with things the way they are because everything's perfect and nothing needs to change. Fuck that. Fuck all of that. We demand representation because we won't get it otherwise. Cishet is the default. Stock holders know that, CEOs know that, marketing teams know that, so they go with the safe option and make everything cishet, and white, because they know it will sell and (most likely) won't get them in trouble with various groups and international marketing. But companies, especially big ones, need to take these risks if that destructive status quo is ever going to change. In fact, it _has_ to be these big companies because they have the money and resources to make those risks. Indie developers and solo private creators make one mistake and they're on the street. And yet it's indie games that we put the responsibility on to create non-cishetwhite content? That's unrealistic and unfair. Big companies _have_ to take a part in this. And Riot listened. At least a little. Neeko's a lesbian, Varus has a couple of gay squatters in him, Taliyah got word-of-god confirmed trans in a twitter post after Neeko's release. It's clear that Riot is looking at more ways to enter this pool, so-to-speak. Let them. Let them try. They have to. There's 144 champions in League of Legends. Most don't have post-2014 confirmed gender or sexual identities. That's a massive pool of characters ripe for representation, representation that won't go counter to any of their existing personalities. Leona/Diana could literally be confirmed any day. Many new lore stories actually hint at it (I recently read Soraka's short story where Leona and Diana were referred to as "counterparts"). Cait/Vi could easily be confirmed with a new skin or a new short story. I'm sure there are some dudes that could get it, too, but I haven't done a lot of research on male champions. If we just go, "only make new champions qu#er," then we'll be here till the second coming. Every new champion for the next two years could be qu#er and it still wouldn't be enough. Anyway, yes, people are free to disagree with me, and they do, and they have already downvoted the post (and I thank them for their participation). But the comments are for discussion and debate and that is what I am doing. But I am still allowed to make arguments in hopes that I sway more people, whether it be the people I am talking to or people reading the comments, to my line of thought. Or, at the very least, consider new ideas. That's all I ask. And I would apologize for this massive wall of text, but I don't regret it and it's important to say. So I'm not sorry.
Arakadia (NA)
: I mean I'd totally be cool with her being asexual. Maybe tie into her being detached from humans. Unfortunately a lot of people can't stand discussion about sexuality so your going to be fighting an uphill battle here on the boards. I think there are other good candidates that aren't canonically asexual but are prime candidates for it like Jhin (who was theorized/suggested to be by a Rioter) and Fiora who is hinted to not be attracted to men by Swain.
Swain says that? ~~shuffles off to write down lesbian headcanon for fiora~~ Someone mentioned Jihn earlier. I guess it was canonized (word of god, of course) but then I said that he's a psychopathic serial killer and that he's not really the best ace/aro rep for that reason. You're right, any number of champions could be ace, and this post is my argument for Nidalee. I might make one for another champion in the future. My eye's currently on Kai'Sa because she passed by my league displays while I was writing my post and it got me thinking.
: The thread still has a chance to be locked/deleted if people derail it, though, cause gods know this community can't have a conversation on subjects like this without it gradually devolving into off-topic arguments. Which, should clarify for OP, isn't a bad thing. Its just the moderator's only way of stopping massive arguments in threads. Hopefully that doesn't happen, though.
I doubt it will. My posts, at most, get like 30-40 comments. And that was a _long_ time ago. And it seems everyone's on-topic so far. Though there was a tangent about Bard earlier up the thread.
: Second comment where I talk about the _content_ of your post, since the first one got a bit longer than I anticipated. > [{quoted}](name=AQA473,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=0GmEMgzE,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-09-21T01:26:24.075+0000) > > I’d like to start by expressing that this is all speculation and **wishful thinking**. I know Nid ain’t ace. No character in League is anything but cishet unless explicitly stated otherwise, over and over, on twitter, in official posts, yelling and screaming in the faces of people who refuse to believe that anything other than cishet exists. That's sad but true. Or at least partly true. Of course, it would be correct to say her canon sexuality is unknown (No, Bob doesn't count even if Varus retained his JoJ sexuality) and open for speculations/headcanons. However, people still default to making them hetero even though there is no mention, not even a hint, of the sexuality for 90% of the cast. > [{quoted}](name=AQA473,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=0GmEMgzE,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-09-21T01:26:24.075+0000) > > But I want to say why I think Nidalee would be such a good ace champion, too. As I mentioned earlier, she’s a sex icon for League of Legends, despite having never had sex in the lore or anything like that. She’s been drawn with the male gaze in mind and is constantly used in promotions to be titilating and exposed. She is sexualized and objectified in the most literal sense. As a character, she is none of these things. Fully agree here. Now as others pointed out, she wouldn't technically be the first asexual character, but that's not the point you're making. The other examples are god-like beings and definitely not human anyway - except for Jhin - and I think Nida would be a good addition. On the topic of voicelines - Yup, she does need an update. (She actually has another reason: her VO _still_ mentions summoners!) From the "classic sexy ladies" she and MF need it the most. I'll give Ahri a pass because it does fit her lore, but especially these two had drastic changes to their lore. I wouldn't mind if they toned down the "sexy" lines. Sure, as you said, she _can_ be sexy, but eh. I'd prefer her less slutty at least. I'm not sure if I agree on aromantic - it could be interesting to explore asexual romantic relationships but the evidence shows she's not interested in Neeko? She could be alloromantic and Neeko left for a different reason? IDK, both could work I think. (I'm also not an expert with the terms and had to look up "allosexual/romantic", so excuse me if there is anything wrong.)
What a lovely comment! Your use of terminology is good. I had to ask my sister about the allo stuff, too (mostly 'cause I didn't know how to spell it). I thought about this, too. Like seriously considered it. Neeko is one of my favorite champs and I'm always on the lookout for possible ships for her (shipping is how I interact with most media). She's had canon attraction towards Nidalee so that's like an easy pair-up right there, and there is fanart for the pairing. But, yeah, Nidalee didn't reciprocate. It could be for any number of reasons. in fact, I wasn't even going to bring up the Neeko thing in this post because it doesn't say in the text "Nidalee's ace so she didn't hook up with Neeko." But it was an instance of a rejected relationship so it helps my argument. It would also be good to have an asexual/alloromantic champion. Most ace/aro characters in media (of which there are, like, four) are ace/aro but most ace/aro people in real life are ace/allo or allo/aro. My sister is the only ace/aro person I know and the only ace/aro person _she_ knows. Having more ace/allo or allo/aro characters would be great for representation, especially to show people a more realistic portrayal of asexuality and aromanticism. But I just don't see it in Nidalee. Maybe when discussing another champion, like Kai'Sa, or Dr. Mundo, but not Nidalee. Nid really feels ace/aro to me, for reasons stated in the post. Thank you so much for the thoughtful response and all the help with the formatting.
: People being Cisgender or Heterosexual isn't a bad thing, and they probably aren't disagreeing with you because they don't like LGBT+ representation. There are more reasons to disagree with you besides not wanting/liking representation. Also, should note, some people in the LGBT+ community don't care about representation either and would also probably disagree with you. Making baseless assumptions about the people that don't agree with you is rude and insulting. There's no other way to go about it.
Most people who say "stop shoving representation down our throats!" are cishets and I have had this argument more times than I can count. Yes, there are people in the qu#er community who don't think representation should be as sought after as it is. I disagree with them. Personally, I think a lot of them are raised in communities that have taught them that the status quo is fine and that nothing's wrong. But, I suppose that's up for debate. And you're right. Cishet isn't a bad thing, and I think I've already said that. You're just trying to argue and I get that. Arguing is fun. I still stand by everything I said in my last statement to you because you didn't really refute anything. I get it. You're the #NotAllCishets, however, and I repeat, I will not change my personality based on exceptions. There are plenty of allies on tumblr. I'm one of them. But we are exceptions. Many, many, many of the outspoken majority is cishet and belligerent and so that's what my argument is tailored to. And, judging by the amount of dislikes this 2-3 hour old post has garnered, I'm right on the money.
: > [{quoted}](name=AQA473,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=0GmEMgzE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-09-21T01:44:12.568+0000) > > Was Bard confirmed asexual? And he really feels like that "lonely hermit" trope I was complaining about. I still stand by my argument. I honestly want Nid _specifically_ to be ace/aro because of what she has represented in the community for so long, which I also discuss in the post. I started thinking about it like a year ago when I realized I didn't ship Nid with anyone. I was like "why don't I ship her with anyone?" and it occurred to me that she could totally be ace and now I will die with this headcanon. > > To use my sister as an example again, she dated three men in her life, I believe one woman (we still debate whether it was dating or not), but she is most certainly ace/aro. These relationships revealed to her that she was in fact ace. She was not invested in any of them. When she broke up with one of them, the thing she missed most was having a reliable ride that wasn't our parents. After high school once she'd established she was ace/aro, she never dated again and is quite happy being single and with a handful of close friends. > > Nidalee's old lore is totally not canon anymore, that sounds out of character, and many, many, many champions have had entire swaths of their old lores/personalities retconned. What you say _is_ an argument, but not the soundest. There's just too many refutations. Again, I stand by my discussion above. My mind is unchanged. Maybe im cheating with this one, but technically speaking Bard is not even a "he"... its a genderless cosmic spirit with no real body. So, it cant have sexual attraction to anyone. Another example could be {{champion:203}} since they are death itself. And yes, of course that the old lore is not canon anymore, and to be fair its kinda dumb to imagine Nidalee dating a reporter of a journal, but there are still traces of it in the new lore (The lore of Rammus actually mentions his love towards cactus, a thing that is mentioned in the same article of the JOJ that mentions the relationship between Bob and Nidalee). But if you want an argument about why Nidalee should be straight in the lore, well... She was raised by felines, and its in the nature of felines to follow mating season, since Nidalee was raised by felines, she should act like them and follow their instincts, reproduction is one of those insticts. In fact, she even mentions that in her (limited) VO. {{champion:76}} "Instinct guides my steps." {{champion:76}} "Did I mention it's mating season?" I mean, if you tell me that asexual felines exist in the wild, then i could see Nidalee as asexual as well, but i dont think there are.
_deep, concentrated, beleaguered sigh_ Rammus is a meme and them commenting on his love for cactus in the new lore is part of that meme. TB Skyen even discusses in his video "What's the Deal with Rammus?" that Rammus is a meme, both in and out of lore, and that his memeness is core to his character. It was probably accidental, but Riot's leaned into this element of Rammus and it's working out pretty well. You can't make the same argument for anyone else. However, there are some relationships, character traits, locations, past events, histories, etc. that _have_ been carried over from pre-2014. Rammus is probably not the best example for your argument, but yes. If they wanted to, they could hook Nidalee up with reporter Bob again. It just doesn't really make sense at this point. Judging by their recent style of writing and lore inclusion, do something like that would be very out of place and, honestly, childish. Having Nidalee bone a reporter "because" is just to stroke the toxic masculine egos of supposed straight-male teenagers reading the Journal of Justice. Those kinds of stories have no place in the modern lore. We seem to be arguing from different places here, so let me get you to where I am. Asexuality is not _learned_. You are born with it. There is no choice, it cannot be taught, it cannot be trained or brainwashed into you. Yes, conversion therapy and societal conditioning is a thing. Society's expectations and a lack of qu#er education is why my sister dated people in high school. But she eventually found out ace was a thing. It was a massive revelation that took her months of research and self-evaluation to finally realize. She suddenly knew why all her relationships sucked, why she didn't feel the same way other people seemed to feel about sex and dating. She never had crushes and never wanted to kiss anyone. She was raised being told "you're gonna get married someday," "one day, when you have sex..." and etc. Society, media, school, teachers, movies, news, everything told her "this is the norm, you will have sex, you will have kids, and that is life." Despite all that, to her, it still felt _wrong_. Hearing about asexuality from someone on the internet was like some cosmic spirit (it was probably Bard) telling her "that _isn't_ the norm, that _isn't_ life; **be you**." Sexuality, romanticism, and gender aren't learned. They _are_. If there's someone who says "well _I_ chose," then that's because they're genderfluid, bisexual/romantic, etc. Take me, for example. I don't suffer from gender dysphoria, but I do have gender euphoria and would prefer identifying as a woman. However, I have no problems identifying as a man. That isn't a choice. That isn't something I learned from somewhere. It's my brain reacting to different interpretations of myself. Because I don't have gender dysphoria (which causes depression and can lead people to suicide), maybe I do have some level of choice. But, again, that's along those lines of genderfluid, bi, etc. If Nidalee is ace (and I never said she was, I just said she could be and hope she will be), then being raised by cougars won't change that. Being raised by anyone anywhere has nothing to do with her gender and sexuality _ever_. It doesn't matter what instincts are. Who knows, maybe she will end up dating Bob. In fact, let's do a thought experiment. Nidalee is a **human child** raised by wild cats in a magical jungle. This magical jungle eventually imprints on her and she gains the ability to turn into a wild cat. She meets Human Bob at some point because he's there for some reason. She determines he is male, having had little experience with society so she doesn't really understand the whole "gender" thing but he has a penis (she sees him pee) so he's clearly "male." She's seen her cougar pride and other animals mating and knows that it is "the circle of life" so she must be destined for this, too, despite not being like any other animal in the jungle. She pursues Human Bob to fulfill this reproductive destiny, begins a sexual interaction with him, and realizes rapidly that **she does not want this**. She keeps telling herself "this is for nature, I _have_ to do this, it's what's expected of me," but she can't ignore how uncomfortable and distasteful this interaction is. It hurts, she has no personal desire to be anywhere near this man, and she realizes that she has a choice. She doesn't need to be here. There's plenty of cougars in the jungle. If she were to die today (another inevitability in the circle of life), would the ecosystem suddenly collapse because she hadn't reproduced with a stranger who might not have even showed up? So, she leaves the man, he being quite bewildered, and decides that she doesn't need "sex." The only penetration she needs is her spear sinking into the hearts of poachers and colonists. You could have her "mate" with another cougar while she's in cougar form, but the result is the same. Gays that have been to conversion therapy are either psychologically damaged in immeasurable ways or they "relapse" and start exhibiting "gay tendencies" again. Because, guess what? _It's not a choice_. This is who we are. There's no fighting it. And why should we have to? Our sexual and gender identities don't hurt people. There's plenty of cishet people to reproduce for the rest of us, if that's a concern. And plenty of gay people, if not most, still want kids. Being gay doesn't mean you don't want kids. Asexual people are also capable of having kids. Ace people that aren't sex-repulsed are known to have sex for their partner who they love (if they're alloromantic) or if reproduction is a necessity. tl;dr sex and gender aren't a choice. Nidalee being raised by cougars would not stop her from being ace if she was. This isn't an argument. It's just fact.
: Okay, forget the tweet. The good news is that you can use the images from Tumblr here: Right-Click on the image in your post over there, Copyy Image URL, paste here. Done.
Thank you so much for all this info! The post looks much nicer now and my future posts (should I not get banned for having different opinions) will hopefully not run into such problems.
: Jhin's sexuality is not common knowledge, so I won't hold it against you for not knowing about it. And again, there are probably other Asexual champions who aren't confirmed, so Nidalee could be one of many potential candidates. Well, I did look up allosexual, and my basic understanding of it is that it just describes people as just generally being sexual, like you know someone is sexual but you don't know exactly what sexuality they are. We know Neeko's sexuality because Riot confirmed it, so I don't think the term allosexual necessarily applies to her. I also looked up cishet and its basically people who are straight and cisgender. Assuming that everyone who downvotes/disagrees with you is cishet is rude and uncalled for, and insulting people who disagree with you is a terrible way to have a discussion.
Your second and third paragraphs here are just reiterating what I said to you earlier, but thanks for reaffirming my information with your own google search? I'm not insulting people, but I might be coming off as a tad bit defensive. Every time I bring a discussion to league boards, I get downvoted into oblivion so I sort of assume everyone's against me and that I'm a one-man army fighting an uphill battle. Cishet is generally used negatively or condescendingly on tumblr but it is not inherently a negative term. The condescension comes from the stereotype or assumption that the "outspoken majority," or people who yell on twitter and send death threats and cry in /all chat, are cishet. We assume they are automatically against anything non-cishest because they are cishet and therefore don't see any reason for representation to exist. After all, they are the majority and the world is built for them. Tumblr is a safe space for the minority so it stands to reason that many people who hate tumblr are part of the outspoken majority and hate tumblr because it is a place that supports and believes in acceptance, representation, and free expression. Obviously, there are exceptions, but I don't base my personality on exceptions. I'm acting defensive because I'm on the defensive. I'm sorry if that offends you, but I'm done being coy.
: First of all, League already has an Asexual champion. His name is Jhin. While Riot officially confirmed that he is "gun/kill sexual" in his Q&A, and they also stated that he does not understand love the way that we do, and that he doesn't see anyone in a sexual/romantic way. You're either his next victim, or you aren't. Second of all, Neeko is confirmed a lesbian, so I don't think "allosexual" is the right term for her. Third of all, you're going to get downvoted for anything, its because of Tumblr. Tumblr is pure cringe(as you have clearly showed by calling everyone who doesn't agree with you "cishet" instead of being mature and respecting people who don't agree). Overall, you make some good points, but I think you looked... Way too into this, and I also don't think you did a good enough job of researching other champions and their supposed/confirmed sexual orientations before making this argument(as I pointed out with Jhin). There are probably a lot of champions who could be consider Asexual, along with other sexual orientations, but they aren't confirmed unless stated otherwise(like Jhin).
I definitely never heard the Jihn thing, but having a psychopathic serial killer be league's sole ace/aro rep is problematic at best. So, let me make an addendum: Nidalee should be League's **second** ace character. "Allosexual" means sexual. Like, not-ace. Lesbian, gay, straight, pan, etc. are all allosexual. I am allosexual. You are probably allosexual. Therefore, Neeko is allosexual. I guess I just assumed people knew that or would highlight+google the term when they didn't recognize it instead of accusing me of not knowing League's sole lesbian's sexuality. I don't care if people downvote me for being from tumblr. It's only cringey if you make it so. Cishet is just a catch-all term for people that consider themselves normal by society's standards. It's not cringey, it's fast and accurate. There's 144 champions in the game. I'm working on reading all the lore on the universe (which is the only location of official lore for anyone that comes at me with "bUt iTs In tHe JoRnAl oF jUsTiCe") but it is a long process. There are many champions, mostly male, that I know little to nothing about. I've done cursory research and basically everyone, but details like past relationships are bound to allude me. Someday, I will have read it all. Today is not that day, and for that I apologize.
: Who has a crush on whom?
I'm shocked no one's mentioned {{champion:89}} ><{{champion:131}} They're like the OG lesbian couple of league. Also {{champion:518}} >{{champion:102}} {{champion:267}} {{champion:76}} (unrequited) and I think she may have mentioned a few others but I've forgotten them off the top of my head. {{champion:51}} ><{{champion:254}} Another OG ship. They're Piltover's Finest and have so much subtext it hurts. I don't know any het ships. But I will say that I don't think we should be counting any pre-2014 lore. So much of it is out the door. It's fine for speculation, since some of it does get reworked into modern lore, but so much of it is retconned.
: Such a long post to say "i want an asexual champion, and Nidalee fits the deal" But... there is an asexual champion already... {{champion:432}} In other hand, Nidalee in the old lore was canonically straight and dated a human male. Considering what happened with Varus, i dont think that Riot should change the already stablished sexuality of a champion again.
Was Bard confirmed asexual? And he really feels like that "lonely hermit" trope I was complaining about. I still stand by my argument. I honestly want Nid _specifically_ to be ace/aro because of what she has represented in the community for so long, which I also discuss in the post. I started thinking about it like a year ago when I realized I didn't ship Nid with anyone. I was like "why don't I ship her with anyone?" and it occurred to me that she could totally be ace and now I will die with this headcanon. To use my sister as an example again, she dated three men in her life, I believe one woman (we still debate whether it was dating or not), but she is most certainly ace/aro. These relationships revealed to her that she was in fact ace. She was not invested in any of them. When she broke up with one of them, the thing she missed most was having a reliable ride that wasn't our parents. After high school once she'd established she was ace/aro, she never dated again and is quite happy being single and with a handful of close friends. Nidalee's old lore is totally not canon anymore, that sounds out of character, and many, many, many champions have had entire swaths of their old lores/personalities retconned. What you say _is_ an argument, but not the soundest. There's just too many refutations. Again, I stand by my discussion above. My mind is unchanged.
Rioter Comments
: The Gay Couple in Varus's New lore is not the problem
I loved old Varus, but in a, "Aw, I feel so bad for him," sort of way. Thing is, Varus's family was fridged so he could go darkside and corrupt himself for revenge. I'm so sick of stories where the family dies because broody emotions. Like someone was saying, every JRPG protagonist ever, and a good number of western protagonists, too. My favorite part of new Varus is that Val's family is still alive. That part delighted me to no end. I've seen it before (though I can't quite recall where), but I love the dynamic of having a bunch of people sharing a single body. It's interesting, too, because it's essentially a rage-driven demon with two very moral humans who are in love with each other. They understand Varus because they've heard of him and know that he's evil. Varus thinks he knows Val and Kai because he just makes assumptions about humans and thinks he's right. While Varus as more control of their form than the two humans, it's clear that he's a fish out of water and that's great to see with an all-powerful demon guy. I don't think Varus is going to change, but Kai and Val will really give him a run for his money in terms of coming out on top in the battle for control. I think the new lore is a vast improvement, even after reading all of your comments. Honestly, you just sound bitter.
: I suggested to preserve the burglar theme for Safecracker Evelynn, keeping her original all-black leather catsuit and adapting her "tentacles" to hooks and ropes but most people seems to prefer her new supervillain theme with tentacles and a Sci-Fi bodysuit. I really will miss the burglar theme of the original Safecracker Evelynn.
If you look at a comparison image, you'll notice that they made her ass bigger in the new safecracker splash, too. And whitewashed her. And made her look more kinky and less burglar. I feel you.
: She is too sexual ?SJW much?
> I am a self-identified SJW Yes. I see you're very good at reading. Tell your parents I'm proud of you.
Rioter Comments
: Petition to let Evelynn call everyone in game a skank and not just Ahri
I'm not taking this as a meme request. I'm taking this seriously and I want her to not call Ahri names because I'd like to think we're past that. Calling people skank shouldn't be locked to one person, especially based on Eve's new personality. Yes, I know that her calling Ahri a skank is supposed to be ironic and it's done for a reason, but Ahri is picked on by enough champions. It won't be Eve any less of a sexual object if her skank-calling is moved to every champ in the league. Just give us this, Riot.
ChiTenshi (EUW)
: He screwed Urgot by taking his place as Star Guardian.
holy shit this made me laugh more than it should have
: Just noticed the boards strickers and...
You're getting a lot of flack, and as a former Kat main and proud owner of a Katarina statue, I wanted to throw some love your way (and not in the form of dumb cartoon hearts). The sword doesn't look like one of her blades, she's never had short hair, and why on earth would she be wearing make-up? if anything, they should've made one of her grinning evilly while having her blades crossed in front of her face like an X with shadows darkening her eyes. That would be far more fitting to her character and could still be made to look cute and fun with an exaggerated art style. Change of style doesn't mean change of character. In fact, Sekai in the comments here, who used varying art styles to oppose your case, is helping it. That's Sakura in multiple styles, but she's still the same character. Always has the headband, always has sparkling eyes, always looks adventurous, etc. This Kat sticker is literally a different being. I could even excuse the eye-shadow, short hair, and incorrect blade, but the heart and GIANT FUCKING LIPS are against her personality, which is core to any character. "If you run, you won't see me _stab you!_"
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=8rLKahXH,comment-id=0002000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-30T17:17:40.977+0000) > > So you think she's an SJW creation I don't remember saying that , but that's a lovely strawman argument, sir. >because she's having fun? I certainly don't remember saying that.... could you at least address my actual points if you're going to present an argument The argument is very straightforward, but very well, let me elaborate on the off chance that you misunderstood (I don't think you did, given you straight up used two strawman arguments back-to-back but I choose to give you the benefit of the doubt).... her kit is great , I was pleasantly surprised with the changes they made. The aesthetic (Especially Shadow Evelynn) is magnificent and I applaud the work. None of this is SJW in any way, neither the kit , nor the aesthetic. The voice acting and the lines however, are absolutely atrocious and reek of SJW's hand. Evelynn is not Draven. She was not like this at all. Yeah she had a couple of joke lines (aside from the literal joke) but even those were pretty dry. They were not this cutesy SJW nonsense where everything is a joke or a reference. The dead giveaway which I already noted is that her old , few joke lines were dry humor, I.e. not this. I generally don't mind though , new or different characters SHOULD be different even if that means making them in the SJW mold (Ex: Poppy, to be fair though, Poppy had very little personality prior to her VGU)... but Evelynn had an established style and this absolutely violates that style on a fundamental level. It doesn't matter though, it's done. Evelynn's personality is dead.... at least they got the kit right. I just wish they had gotten personality somewhat intact (Ex: Warwick). Before you say " **Well you're just whining because you're not proposing a solution** " , which would be a valid response.... my solution would be to allow players to choose between her old audio and her new one. That would be very easy to implement and would make everyone happy.... same as they did for Trundle, Sejuani and Karma.
Ralanr seems sated, but I'm confused. "The voice acting and the lines however, are absolutely atrocious and reek of SJW's hand." What? As an SJW, I think the exact _opposite_. She is very much not SJW. She's sexualized, objectified, and written like a sexy seductress from an 80s B-movie action flick. Having things be jokes and references isn't SJW, it's capitalism. A company thinks that appealing to current trends, fads, and internet memes will increase sales, when it really just makes their products dated, especially since the development cycle of these products exceeds the life of the memes they imitate. Eve does not do these things. Eve is a walking caricature, 80% of her lines consisting of infamous and cliche sex jokes dating back to the 1800s. She's a literally step back in representation and writing, no matter how you look at it, and SJW stuff is all about progress, change, and diversity, which she sorely lacks. Old Eve was an eyesore already, and all us SJWs were hoping that she would receive a meaningful change like Sejuani did, but nope. She got _worse_. Un-fucking-believable. So, no, she is not "SJW," she is the opposite.
: > [{quoted}](name=Catastrop,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=8rLKahXH,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-09-27T17:08:04.230+0000) > > This is coming from the same person who called Camille a parody She is. But I wouldn't expect someone that doesn't know what she's a parody of to understand. You fail.
So I have a huge problem with Eve, but not a huge problem with Camille. I'm genuinely curious, what is she a parody of? Maybe I should be critical of her, too.
: If Evelynn was a boy. Riot, read this.
Yes yes yes. I feel you. We got people in the comments going "bring it," but just saying that doesn't fix the issue. It's just like Riot's approach to including queer characters. But instead, they said they wanted to reduce the amount of sexualized female characters in the game, while adding queer representation. I haven't seen either and so few people are complaining about it. Everyone seems fine just keeping to the status quo. League of Legends is one of the most popular games in the world, challenged only by a custom-character-played PUBG and Overwatch, which features a variety of non-sexualized female characters of different ethnicities and sexualities. If Riot wants to keep up with the times, they need to fucking do it. Reworks are an amazing opportunity to make serious change with their roster (see Sejuani). I guess it's too high of an expectation to assume they wouldn't flounder horribly a few times.
ChuShoe (NA)
: To everyone complaining about evelynne being sexy/physically attractive
Old thread, but people in the comments are saying that they aren't seeing people complaining about Evelynn, so I'll just leave this here to let everyone know that my first reaction to the long-awaited Eve rework was abject horror (and not the kind Riot wanted to inspire). I'll make my own thread talking about it, but I couldn't be more disappointed.
: Alternative Evelynn base splash
I like it better. I mean, it's still sexualized to all hell (I cannot believe what they did to her face), but it's definitely an improvement. May need to switch regions just to benefit from this if I end up taking Eve seriously enough.
: the New Ev is disgusting. redo her voice, and hire the old actress from 2cnd rework.
I respect your disgust for the rework, but I think you're handling it poorly. Arguing about rating and "But the children!" isn't a valid argument. The game is T and Riot already expressly opposes children playing their game, even though they can't really stop it from happening. But speaking out against it, it's not longer in their hands. Riot has as much a right to give a character sexual innuendos as Blizzard does to make it possible to get drunk in World of Warcraft. That said, I do think the rework is appalling, and the excessive innuendos and character design are damaging for far different reasons.
: meh another futuristic themed vi skin would be pointless thnx to neon strike
I mean, MF has three pirate skins, but they all do different things so no one questions it. It's okay to have multiple skins on the same champ based in the same "era." "Futuristic sci-fi" does not have one appearance. League already has several versions of these worlds, with Pulsefire, PROJECT:, the super hero galaxy thing, the pacific rim skins, one-offs like Neon Strike, Program, Crimson Elite, and I think a few others. Saying that having another future skin would be pointless because of Neon Strike is an insult to the diversity of sci-fi.
: Learn more: Pulsefire Caitlyn
Still waiting for Vi interactions. Maybe they're waiting for a matching Vi skin to be released? Hey, a guy can dream.
: Yeah, you pretty much conveyed what I was trying to convey. Good job on that! It really is a sort of "with us or against us" group these days, and while I was trying to phrase it politely, I guess the OP didn't get that. Sorry, OP. Hope you can forgive me. You're pretty sane, and you make good arguments about the whole double-standard thing. Good job again {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}} We should play a round sometime.
All is forgiven. I could've handled all of this a bit better, too. Finals are near, my family is stressing me out, and fighting for queer representation is always an uphill battle. I'm sorry for being so rude. Now, I'm gonna sit here and eat a chocolate rabbit like it did something to me.
qqpp (NA)
: I think you have a misunderstanding with Kindred. Kindred is two halves of one whole, not a couple. They are also not life and death, they are the twin essences of death, Lamb takes people who have accepted their end and Wolf takes people who refuse to die. Other than that I agree with you, and Rakan is too pushy with Xayah.
I really should edit that out. I realized my error with the Kidnred reference fairly soon after I posted and never bothered fixing it. I hae a list somewhere in the comments of all the straight people I could remember off the top of my head and Kindred is not in there. But, I also have somewhere in the comments why having Kindred in there is sorta relevant. They are perceived to be male and female, opposites part of the same "whole." Both have separate voice actors, one male and one female, and many of their interactions show affection in ways not dissimilar to those between Xayah and Rakan. Even if they are "the same being," they are also separate, and the game/developers treat than that way, too. I won't list them under "all straight champions," but I don't think they're excluded from the conversation. And someone looking for representation is going to see Kindred and think "Oh geez, more hets." It doesn't matter what the lore says; once something has been given to the world, it becomes something else. Something that George Lucas still has a hard time reconciling with. I love that you agree with me, but I actually like Rakan. I've played both extensively since I made this post originally, both in PBE and live, and I've read all their lore, watched all videos associated with them, and read through the Q&A. Rakan is in love with Xayah, and not in any pervy stalker way, and Xayah 100% loves him back. They are a couple, plain and simple. A lot of people's early impressions of them made Rakan seem like some dudebro asshole who pines after a girl that just wants to live her life. That is not the case. They are in love, and though Rakan is very overt, Xayah has no problems with it. In fact, she sometimes encourages his antics. One of my favorite lines: Rakan: What would you do if I died? Xayah: I would... burn this world to the ground and build a castle from the ashes, where I would live alone forever. Rakan: Aw... that's sweet. There are way more lines like that ~~totally didn't just spend 20 minutes looking at Xayah's quotes~~.
: No, it's more like this. Nowhere near as many of you that were disrespected or murdered in the past are getting disrespected or murdered nowadays. Hate crimes exist for every minority group (and majority groups as well), and there is no amount of pleading that will change the opinions of people who have had their doctrine ingrained into them since their birth. I really love how you think I am implying you guys should all be dead, man you are so hard to argue with simply because you straw man the shit out of every argument or point I throw at you. So arbitrary and pointless that you are wishing for representation in a fucking video game and going as far to complain and fight about it. I could see if you wanted representation in a legal way, but the fact that you are pushing for something as arbitrary as a video game is mind boggling and unreasonable to say the least.
I love the argument of "it's so much better now than it used to be; why are you complaining? Just be happy with what you got." it ignores so many issues, and it ignores that fact that that's been the case of every generation before us since the dawn of time (if we assume the worst it's ever been was the dawn of society). The thing is, it isn't perfect, so we have to keep fighting. it may never be perfect, society may never achieve complete equality, but that just means we can never stop. So, no, I won't just roll over and thank the heterosexual/cis/white overlords for the crumbs they've given me. But thanks for the advice. To back up what Fasmodey says (and then apologizes for), representation in video games/entertainment media has always only partially been about the political aspect. It's a nice bonus, more than anything, if it's seen by the right people (I'd argue that Bioware are the biggest pushers for queer representation in video games reaching into the political hemisphere). The most important part is that people who aren't represented in daily life (minorities) are represented somewhere they can see. It validates someone. If you don't think that being validated as a human being is important, there's a name for that. Privilege. Male/white/cis/het privilege is 99% unnoticed by those who benefit from it, which is why it's privilege. It just is. It's a part of society, ingrained in our very psyche from birth, either by parents, peers, authority figures, media, etc. Fasmodey went a little too much into the political spectrum, which is okay, but that argument won't appeal to what you value so that argument was wasted. What I can tell you is that media representation for minorities is more important than I can describe. I've seen/met countless people who were disabled, black, Asian, autistic, gay, trans, etc. that were overjoyed, or their parents were overjoyed when character X in game/movie/book/show Y was the same whatever as them or their kid. It means the world to that person, to see themselves in a hero, or someone that can overcome struggles, be successful. Perhaps having that level of representation is slightly unnecessary in League, a multiplayer online battle arena that focuses on hitting large stone obelisks and killing people, but nothing exists in a vacuum. This game has plenty of white people and a few people of color, so Riot has already entered the arena (pun intended) so now they gotta keep it going. If they didn't want to worry about representation, then they should have made a game like Superhot where all the characters are non-descript red humanoids with guns. But they didn't. They made _people_ so they need to make all they people that play their game, in some facet or another. That's just the society we're in right now. You're right, it's better now than it's ever been, so the bar's been raised. We can't go back to video games that have all straight white people. We've broken that barrier. The future is media with more PoC, queer people, people with disabilities (see Overwatch), people of all different ethnicities and cultural/economic backgrounds. "better than it's ever been" is not an excuse to stop, is a reason to prove that it's better, to show everyone that we've entered a new age of acceptance and understanding. This isn't about settling, this is about showing people that they are accepted and appreciated for who they are.
: I didn't get that sense of harassment at all, I thought he was being rather polite while also disagreeing with you. That's part of the problem with many movements and protests like this, it's too much of a "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality. Just because he's gay/queer/idk the respectful term, you think he should agree with you, and if he doesn't, it's harassment. I'm not sure if that's exactly how you feel, that's just what I got from it. I think discussions like this are really important and don't mean to discourage you, but when you have discussions, it's not supposed to be an echo chamber. You are trying to get everyone to talk about it, and no two people are going to have identical views. You should expect people to have different ideas than you, but as long as they are respectful about it, it's ok, better even. Not tolerating "infighting" is making the LGBT community seem like less than people, and by that I mean they are not allowed to be individuals and all that entails; including developing their own opinion distinct from other individuals that also happen to be gay(or trans or queer, etc). You are bothered that Xayah and Rakan were developed as a straight couple. Midnight Oil thinks you are overreacting and believes we might have more LGBT+ characters later. He never insulted you, merely stated his opinion. If anything, he was trying to calm you down and prevent fighting/infighting.
Omg why do I have to keep fucking restating this I DON'T CARE THAT XAYAH AND RAKAN ARE STRAIGHT. In fact, I love them. They're my new mains, I almost have Xayah at Mastery 5, they're great. What I care about is that making them straight from the beginning (as revealed through the behind-the-scenes video released last week) shows that Riot is either being hypocritical or holding double standards. Midnight Oil is misconstruing my argument and thinks that I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. I'm not complaining about "those damn striaghts," I'm complaining about double standards. This isn't about the champion count, this is about how Riot is addressing these issues. They know it's an issue, they've acknowledged it, and then they go against their word less than a month later. And, as a member of the league community, I am allowed to make a point of this without being told > Just because they're not confirmed gay doesn't mean that that Riot hates us. I suggest you try to cool off, maybe spend a bit of time not freaking out about straight characters, because it's just gonna make you feel bad in the long run.
: JoJ references Kassadin having a daughter, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's straight. Varus had a wife and son. Other than that, can't think of anyone else confirmed 100% straight. Evelynn maaaybe? (Assuming it's not just an act)
I plan on going through all the post-retcon lore at some point and making an essay about this, but off the top of my head, let's see... Kassadin (per your reference) Varus (per your reference) Evelynn "maaaybe?" (per your reference) Orianna- Post-retcon: Riot created a "male" robot for her to fawn over and she does Ahri- Same as Rakan; her lore says she exclusively seduces men Ezreal/Lux- Alluded to in the JoJ; Ezreal's uncle in HA mentions Ezreal's crush on Lux Tryndamere/Ashe- Marriage referenced in lore Vi- Not confirmed straight but definitely not gay; revealed that she flirts with men Cassiopeia- Pre-retcon: Cassi got turned into a snake because she shmoozed male nobles and shmoozed the wrong one Garen/Katarina: Pre-Retcon: JoJ Lucian: Wife Miss Fortune: Lore references her hitting on/flirting with men, also is sexual towards her summoner who is assumed to be an adolescent boy (if you want to argue that point, feel free, but we all know Riot's demographic, especially S1-S2) Xayah/Rakan: Duh That's 17 champions, give or take. Even removing Pre-retcon and implied het characters, that leaves 9. I haven't read all of the new lore yet, but I will, and then we'll see just how many straight people are in League.
Fasmodey (EUW)
: This link explains the thing very well. I would be so disappointed if they ever released a gay character just for us to shut up. There are many sexually undefined champions. Why would you release a gay champion rather than pointing out the sexuality of current champions? This would be beyond forced and I would lose my respect to Riot if it ever happens.
I've read it. The writer quotes me at the bottom of the comments section, too. There are several characters I could list off the top of my head that are very subtext heavy and would be easy to "make gay" without having to break any current lore or make a whole new champion with the purpose of being gay. I'm with you, though. I'd lose faith in Riot, too.
: Geez, I know you've received a lot of hate in this thread, and I commend you for being brave enough to do this, but he/she/xe/other was just trying to offer encouragement. Seriously, look at the comments, he's not harassing anyone.
And I see that in (most of) their other comments, but in this particular thread, they're just attacking me and in a very unhelpful manner and I'm getting enough flack from the non-queer community. I won't tolerate infighting.
Darkdash (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Elias1724,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=r1hVHlK3,comment-id=00000001000100010000,timestamp=2017-04-19T01:14:58.536+0000) > Also again, I will restate my claim in that **_it only makes sense for the majority, yes majority (being heterosexual people), to reflect the majority of themselves in their media._** Most straight writers, game designers, whatever will choose a majority of straight characters. Most gay writers will include someone that represents themselves in their writing. It's just how human nature works: we choose to express ourselves in ways we can relate to. The majority of the population **_is_** straight, deny it and be ignorant or accept it and move on, so it makes sense that the majority of media includes straight preferences. What a strange, nonsense argument. By the same logic, since there are more Asian people than white people, then statistically speaking it would make sense for most characters to be PoC and not white. People of colour are the clear _**vast **_ majority here, so why don't we get more of them represented in the media? The answer -and I know this may be hard to believe- is _**biiigotryyyy**_. You know it's _almost _ as if LGBTQ+ characters aren't included in things because people don't want to include them due to discrimination and not in order to maintain some arbitrary ratio of fictional and real queer people around the world.
There are several people swimming around this page that could use the information you state here. Being a minority doesn't mean that it's an excuse to not include them.
: You don't seem to realize that gay people are outnumbered by straight people by a lot. It's not that they think we're less important, it's just that we're a minority. That's why we're fighting for rights. We're a minority. Also, they haven't actually confirmed all that many people. We've got Lucian, these two, and I can't really think of any others. Just because they're not confirmed gay doesn't mean that that Riot hates us. I suggest you try to cool off, maybe spend a bit of time not freaking out about straight characters, because it's just gonna make you feel bad in the long run.
I can't even tell whose side you're on. Well, I see no reason to continue talking to you. Feel free to stay on the page and harass people, but I'm moving on. Someone's gotta do the actual "fighting," as you say, since you aren't. Have a good day.
Darkdash (EUNE)
: Oh my GOSH, hello! Damn, I didn't know I had my own queer cult following, maybe we should all join forces and start a squad. And wow you're right, I hadn't considered the whole charm thing with Ahri and Rakan (though I doubt Riot will ever confirm them as bi, but still it's a nice thought). I agree with you on the whole thing and it's definitely very upsetting (also Vi/Caitlyn is a very very good ship to ship). I'm sorry there's people downvoting and trolling this entire post with their queerphobia, but hey at least there's some of us to and we have your back. (also pssst, [here's a post]( on this subject you might like)
I just read that article and did you see that they quoted me? At the bottom of the comments, they use this forum post and a quote from it as a point in an argument, which makes me proud. I'm controversial! You should totes message me on [tumblr]( As it turns out, this post is also being subject to anti-queer rhetoric from our fellow queers. Time's never change, eh?
: I'd like to note that gay characters do exist in Runeterra, as shown in the Janna short story and the Progress Day short story. I support LGBT things (hell, I am an LGBT person), but some of the stuff you're saying here is a bit extreme. It's not like having a straight relationship is a company saying #### you to gay people. It's just that not everyone is gay. They've said there will be gay champions. Just wait a bit. I don't think you have to blow a gasket over these two. Also, you say that having a character be gay and not a champion defeats the purpose. There's something called worldbuilding. Not everyone will be straight, as you know, so I don't see why only champs should be allowed ot be gay in your ideal Runeterra. In addition, you're basically saying that being gay needs to be their entire character, as far as I can tell. The fact that these characters are gay is mentioned in passing, and I don't think it needs to go beyond that. If you make an entire character and introduce them with "they're gay," it kind of makes them feel more forced. But yeah. I, a gay person, feel you're making a much bigger deal out of this than it is.
I know of those characters, and I still think they don't count. I get what you're saying, absolutely, [having queer side characters can be very important](, but that isn't what I'm talking about and it doesn't solve the issue that having a ton of confirmed het champions produces. It tells the player base that straight/cis people are more important/valid than queer people. Even Tracer's gay reveal is subtle, occurring in a comic independent of the game universe. Whatever happens in the short stories is secondary to in-game interactions/information. Everything that's been said about Riot having double standards (especially after the behind-the-scenes video for Xayah and Rakan) still stands.
Darkdash (EUNE)
: Yo whattup, queer person here and yes I 100% agree that xayah and rakan were designed from the start to be a straight couple. Annoyingly, Riot could have had them both be queer women and nothing at all would have changed about their characters. But noooo, god forbid you include a canonicaly gay couple in your game. What really ticks me off is that League of Legends design director [Greg Street gave an interview with polygon recently where he said that LGBT champions are gonna appear in the game "at some point"]( and then surprise surprise here's two straight-ass champions being disgustingly cute about how much they love each other. *siiigh* They could have (potentially) broken new ground, they could have had some [actual, canonical representation in their game]( but I doubt it even occurred to them. Fun fact: Overwatch had its first [canonically confirmed gay champion]( within 7 months of release[ and Blizzard has promised that more are coming]( How many years has League been around for? 8? And in that timeline there hasn't been a **single** canonically confirmed LGBTQ+ champion in the game (and I'm not counting Taric since all the "speculation" started because of a homophobic joke spurred by the LoL community). Boy it sure is fun when gaming companies go out of their way to throw LGBTQ+ people under the bus for almost a decade. Another fun thing to add: I noticed in Rakan's lore it was mentioned that "women around the world were charmed by how goddamn handsome he totally was" and the piece itself mentions the word women to reaffirm that Rakan is 100% Straight™ and there's no chance that he's Bi. Like, when writers go out of their way to erase all probability that a champion could even be headcanoned as queer is just ridiculous. Next thing you know they'll start every champion spotlight with the words "This champion is Heterosexual so jot that down folks".
Hello, fellow queer person! I've felt so alone in this thread with everyone attacking me. Oh well. That first paragraph of yours is the exact reason I made this forum post and it went right over the heads of about 90% of the people in the comments. Xayah and Rakan's existence is not what bothers me; in fact, I will be buying both with money because I want Riot to know that this level of inter-champion interaction is what I expect in future updates. What bothers me is that _of course_ they're straight. Like, why wouldn't they be? That's the default, right? (Don't go looking for him, but there's a guy in this comment section that legitimately tries to defend his reasoning for why straight is the default and that it's a proven fact) What's funny, too, is that [Dawngate did this years ago]( With League's casual-esque crowd (compared to Dota 2) and massive playerbase, this is the perfect environment for breaking new ground, as you say. I also agree that Taric is the wrong starting point. It bothers me that everyone sees him and Ezreal as the obvious gay couple. They have no interactions and Ezreal is actually one of the straight white boy characters that are making this an issue. His relationship with Lux is explored in pre- and post-retcon lore and in in-game dialogue (his uncle in the Howling Abyss). What would make more sense is if Xayah and Rakan had been two queer characters instead, or Caitlyn and Vi. Vi was literally created for Caitlyn. They weren't built to be adversaries like Morgana/Kayle, Diana/Leona, Rengar/Kha'Zix, or Zed/Shen. Vi and Caitlyn are partners; they have an in-game passive that reflects their partnership and every post-retcon story about them involves both. They are a team and if any past champions are going to recieve a Xayah-Rakan style interaction rework, it should be Piltover's Finest. They are my otp because they are the most blatant coupling in the game, gay, straight, or otherwise. Ashe/Tryndamere is only hinted at, and the aforementioned Ezreal never acknowledges his feelings for Lux, as a good anime boy would, and depends on peers to point it out. Thing is, Rakan is totally bi in the same way that Ahri is (who also got given the "duh, she's straight" treatment). His ult charms anyone he touches. His lore says he only sways the hearts of women (what, like homosexuality just doesn't exist in Runeterra, Mr. Omnipotent Narrator?), but gameplay tells me that his charming ways don't stop at boobs. Watch, me mentioning this, now Riot's gonna go and make all non-males immune to Ahri's E and all non-females immune to Rakan's R. It would be just like them to do that, "No homo." This whole situation just screams "No homo." Like, "gay is okay, just not _out there_." No, Riot. Just no. You can be more explicit. If it makes you more comfortable, you can dip your toes like Overwatch did with Tracer and put it in a short story. They have all these champions with no confirmed relationships and tons of chemistry with other champions, but they aren't using it. I hear there's a gay guy in one of the stories, but he appears once and isn't a champion. Like, that sorta defeats the purpose. I can't wait to actually read this story and see how insignificant he is. While Vi's hitting on imprisoned convicts in her post-retcon short story. I just don't get Riot. They say one thing and do another. I'm with you 100%: this whole situation bothers the ever-loving shit out of me. SIde-note: OMG I JUST REALIZED WHO YOU ARE. I was looking up queer-related posts and found one of yours in the EU forums and wanted to shower you with support but I couldn't comment on the post for some reason. I'm so glad to finally meet you! I'm a huge fan!
Korios (EUNE)
: Jeez no, I just asked you a question.
You can see why I read it as trolling though, yes? Poking and prodding like that can easily be perceived negatively. I'm tired, stressed, and everyone in this post is yelling at me. I simply lashed out when I thought I was being played with. For that, I apologize. I just hope you understand me.
GreenLore (EUW)
: There is one simple reason why they can't make a homosexual couple like this ingame. And that is the fact that there are simply some countries who are strictly against homsexuality and Riot would risks restrictions,if not getting outright banned in these countries if they depict a homosexual couple in the game. I mean just look at the new "beauty and the beast"-film.That movie got an 16+ rating in russia because it features a gay character and it was outright banned in some theaters because of it. And if freaking Disney is powerless against this,then Riot won't stand much of a chance against something like that either. Also just to be nitpicky: > These aren't the first confirmed straight characters, it's just directly tied into their designs. The last time this happened was with Kindred, but you could sweep that under the table with the "Life vs Death" argument. Lamb&Wolf are neither a couple nor do they represent life&death. They both represent death(lamb for those who accept death and wolf for those who try to flee from it) and they are the same being and not in a relationship.
Eh, I don't really play Kindred, but now that I think about it, I do remember that information when they first released. Regardless, they're viewed as an opposite sex coupling because they are depicted as two unique, but attached, characters and even feature opposite sex voice actors. Even though that isn't the truth of it, that is the perception of it and that carries weight. In that regard, I think my using them as an example is still valid. As for the bulk, Riot knows about this issue. Despite that, they still said they plan on creating queer characters as champions. How far that will go in gameplay, who knows. You're probably right in saying that they won't be portrayed as flamboyantly as Xayah and Rakan, but that also isn't the point of my argument. You speak true, though, and I am not denying that. It just isn't the subject of my argument. I don't know why I have to keep repeating this, but the problem I have is not that Xayah and Rakan exist, it is not how the champions are portrayed, it is not that I would prefer Xayah and Rakan had been queer characters, it is Riot's hypocrisy in their approach to champion design. Wow, that's the most concise explanation I've made about my argument. Maybe I should edit that into the post. So, I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying. In fact, it's all held in fact, it just isn't relevant to what my argument is, to what I'm trying to get at. There are already plenty of posts in the forums demanding queer representation and others complaining about Xayah and Rakan because of their heterosexuality, so I don't need to add to those voices. I attack Riot's questionable judgment and failure to adhere to their own word.
Korios (EUNE)
: So, if the next champion is LGBTQ you will be pleased?
I feel like you started this whole convo thread to get a rise out of me. I would be pleased, because then we'd have counter-balance. But that's mostly because they've already broken the rules. The question you should have asked was, "If Xayah and Rakan had been an LGBTQ couple, would you have been pleased?" So now I'll answer that question. Please learn how to troll better No, I wouldn't because they broke the same rule. It's the same exact situation, it's just that having a straight couple being the one that got released shows both that they broke their own rule and that they have double standards. I hope that answers all your questions. Now please get the fuck out of this thread that you care nothing about.
WarWork (NA)
: tl dr ends doesn't justify the means and just a gender swap isn't legendary skin level
The Riot post on this exact post says they've wanted to do it, so that argument is invalid. And your last statement is so incredibly wrong, I want to scream. That's called sexism and I'm not okay with it. No, absolutely, men and women _for the most part_ look different physically. But suggesting that a whole new champ would need to be created just to add/remove boobs is ludicrous. It would literally just be a voice/model replacement, which legendary skins do. A new champ requires a kit build (which takes a long time due to implications with the meta), lore, and unique character design, and that's all on top of the technical skin-related work. What you said is so ignorant, I can't even. I can't even.
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