: What I mean is that the Shaco mains I always see running around would be incredibly pissed if his kit is even remotely changed and I can see why. Really the only ability of his that looks like it could be completely reworked is his E. I can see the rest of his kit (such as his Q) being modified to play around his passive a little better, but that's it.
You can't fix what has never worked. Shaco has never been competitively viable and any synergy he has with other champions is predictable in nature due every one of them requiring a tether that is predictable to see besides Shen who, himself, is not a strong champion unless he finds incredible lead. Both champs benefiting from one another's kits yet both demand gold. It is plain to see why the champion's kit itself is the problem.
: Mains DON'T hate him, though. Riot has said several times that they're terrified of trying to rework Shaco specifically because of his rabid fanbase. I mean, when the assassin reworks happened we had Shaco mains who were absolutely livid about even the slightest changes to his passive and ult (Changes that were obviously nothing but net benefits for him).
I don't know bout all that but I did speak with some hyperbole. Ofcourse we don't "hate" him. But it'll always feel bad to play an inherently inferior champion next to any other.
Rioter Comments
Slythion (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=ASSASSINATED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YUIWPpVa,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-01-15T20:07:03.290+0000) > > If you rely solely on winrate to tell you what makes something good or bad then you're relying on a number based on a population that don't know what they're doing in the first place. That doesn't mean Shaco is good. Because if he was he'd be played competitively. That just means everyone is bad and allows Shaco to win due to that. This is incredibly wrong in every way. 1. They cited more then winrate. They cited winrate, playrate, and curves/changes through elos. You can accurately determine the strength of a champion based on those observations. 2. "A population that doesn't know what they're doing in the first place" ...like what? Diamond players don't know what they're doing? And even though Ru didn't mention it, there are *several* diamond-challenger shaco mains out there...did they just get up there because no one knows what they're doing? 3. The idea that if a champion is strong in solo queue then they're automatically going to be played competitively has been proven wrong over and over and over throughout the years. The reverse is true too. I thought it was pretty basic knowledge that competitive league of legends is *vastly* different then solo queue, it's why Galio (when he had a ~47% wr and awful pick rate at all elos) was pick/ban for a time for professional players. It's why Azir and Kalista had to be dumpstered. There is no statistical, mathmatical, or any other respectable reason someone can claim shaco is bad. Anecdotal evidence maybe, but that's it.
> [{quoted}](name=Slythion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YUIWPpVa,comment-id=000100010002,timestamp=2019-01-15T20:29:22.539+0000) > > This is incredibly wrong in every way. > > 1. They cited more then winrate. They cited winrate, playrate, and curves/changes through elos. You can accurately determine the strength of a champion based on those observations. Curves and changes are just that. Curves in changes. Nothing significant about it other than shit happens. You can't accurately determine the strength of a champion based on the actions of monkeys. > > 2. "A population that doesn't know what they're doing in the first place" ...like what? Diamond players don't know what they're doing? And even though Ru didn't mention it, there are *several* diamond-challenger shaco mains out there...did they just get up there because no one knows what they're doing? Your argument here was delusional at best. Yes. They got up because other people did not know what they were doing. Hell! I got up there because everybody else didn't know what they were doing years ago! Even though i'm miles better than I was I am still trash at this game because i'm not willing to put in the effort to actually be good at it. I got to diamond V not knowing ANYTHING about pathing, jungle-tracking (which is basically the same thing but not a lot of people understand that), wave manipulation, back timers, gank timers etc. and knowing all this now I am still consistently hitting diamond and I can tell you RIGHT now more than 70%+ of the players in Diamond 4/3 do NOT know about any of what I just mentioned. It doesn't even register to them. These are things some NA challenger players don't fully understand. I'd ask you to watch challenger games so you could see the proof yourself but I can't really do that since it is very unlikely you understand any of these aspects yourself. No offense. > > 3. The idea that if a champion is strong in solo queue then they're automatically going to be played competitively has been proven wrong over and over and over throughout the years. The reverse is true too. I thought it was pretty basic knowledge that competitive league of legends is *vastly* different then solo queue, it's why Galio (when he had a ~47% wr and awful pick rate at all elos) was pick/ban for a time for professional players. It's why Azir and Kalista had to be dumpstered. No, it hasn't. If anything the opposite has been proven. Any chance that something is remotely good for actual reasons and not cheese picks has always been played in competitive. I mean Shaco has been considered "good" so many times yet he never gets played in competitive except maybe 1 time in EU by a huge memer who went on to play Udyr, Gnar jungle. Tryndamere was considered good a handful of times. AP or AD. But that's only because certain stats were inflated at the time not because his kit was useful whatsoever. Wukong... I mean the guy only does damage after he's been fed 4 kills and level 11 even then he's easy to avoid because there's a limited amount of ways he can flank. This is true for a lot of stealth champions... And Fiddlesticks. I mean generally there's a limited amount of flanking opportunities for every champion but champions like Wukong, Shaco, Talon, Eve etc. rely on flanks. But only Talon and Eve in the specific list I mentioned are the ones who become genuinely viable for competitive. Why? Because their kits open up opportunities to create new flanking positions or subside current ones. Is it impossible for Shaco to become meta competitively? No it's not. But his kit is so fundamentally bad that it would take every other jungler to be utterly useless and Shaco to have high base stats. And you know what? As long as Pantheon still has high base stats he'll still be more competitively viable. You know why I say Shaco is trash? Because I don't want him to EVER be viable in competitive as he is. I don't him to be the champion that is viable just because he's nothing more than a beatstick! As is something like fucking Syndra whenever she's viable. Or like Lucian is right now! Yea yeah! Talk to a fuckin' Lucian main and ask him how he feels that every other adc is absolutely garbage and the only reason his champion is pick/ban right now is because he deals more damage than the other adcs and the support meta happens to favor him a little bit. And then watch him get nerfed even though the other adcs are already getting buffed. Engage supports are slowly falling out of meta as utility supports come back up. Yeah i'm sure Lucian players are gonna have so much fun when that inevitably happens! Look at Sejuani! Went from being a CC tank to a beatstick tank. Galio went from being a utility mage to a beatstick. Ornn went from being a lane-dominant tank to a beatstick who creates other beatsticks. I'm not saying Shaco is trash because for a beatstick he has shit damage. I'm complaining about the fact that he's a beatstick and he's only ever gonna be viable AS a beatstick. And then other people will complain that he has "too much damage." Again, you probably are incapable of seeing it. My rant is proof that any actually good champion is good in competitive. The problem is you don't have the knowledge or capacity to understand why a champion is good in competitive. You don't understand that the only reason Lucian, Karthus bot is good is because every other champion is bad. The only reason Syndra mid is good(not right now) is because other champions are bad. The only reason Pantheon is good(not now) is because other champions are bad etc. You can't understand what i'm saying because it would take all day to explain. Frankly, I don't care. But if you looked historically the only reason these champions were good was because they had/have super inflated stats. > > There is no statistical, mathmatical, or any other respectable reason someone can claim shaco is bad. Anecdotal evidence maybe, but that's it. Statistics, as I've explained, is numbers reliant on something. If you're talking about relying on numbers that depend on the NA region or, really, any region unless it's maybe Master+ KR than it is a region not worth talking about. Unless there's some god forsaken number that is clearly disgusting across the board like a Kassadin 73% wr. At that point, we can talk. Oh but Shaco... Above 50% wr! Call the presses! Shaco does one thing. Actually no he technically does 2 things. But the first one is obvious. He goes in. He kills someone. Okay, what happens if... They don't let you do that? Suddenly Shaco is not a champion! Isn't it strange how that works? Isn't it weird that if I can't kill someone than I immediately become the most useless champion in the game? That I have to place a box somewhere in desperation of being useful! Even though they don't have to run into my box either! It's fine! I can still send in my clone. Maybe they'll ignore it and it'll deal 120 damage to anyone still near it! My E slows so maybe I can, at the very least, peel for my adc every 8 seconds! Oh... He's probably dead by then... Probably wouldn't have mattered after all wtf is a 30% slow gonna do? Why am I just not Kha'zix who has a 90% slow. 60% if targets aren't isolated. And it's AoE! But it's okay... Shaco can still.................. Shaco is above 50% w/r so he has to be good! Oh! You wanna know the other thing Shaco can do? He's sort of, not really good in poke comps. Because he can put a box behind the team and if the enemy tries to chase us down they run into boxes. Funny thing about that: Nobody plays poke comps in SoloQ! Because nobody has that much coordination to pull it off as it requires at least 4 members to STAY mid. And Throw shit. Which isn't typically the hard part... No... The hard part is tethering as a group against the enemy in such a way that the enemy are never in range to engage. There's a reason why sieging goes wrong more often than not. What's even FUNNIER is that boxes still aren't even that good at peeling. You can literally pick any other jungler to do the same job. You can pick Kha, Ornn, Sej, Kindred, Graves, Rammus, Ivern, Kayn, Cho'Gath, Camille, Aatrox, Zac (preferable because he counters poke comps), Hecarim, Eve, Elise, Rengar, Taliyah, Skarner, Gragas, Lee Sin, Nunu, Poppy, Pyke, Jarvan, Tahm Kench, Maokai, Brand, Sion and if you want me to list every jungler better than Shaco not just in poke comps but in general.. Well, it would take me way too long to list every champion in the game... Except Vladimir and MF. You just can't jungle Vladimir, MF. On the other hand, yes... It's true not all competitively viable champions are good in soloQ. Only because players don't know how to utilize the utility that comes with that champion typically. Whether it is due to its need of communication or lack of individual skill.
: If what you're saying is true, his win rate would dip when you got to Plat+ and Diamond+, but it doesn't, it gets higher.
> [{quoted}](name=DrCyanide,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YUIWPpVa,comment-id=000100010001,timestamp=2019-01-15T20:14:12.903+0000) > > If what you're saying is true, his win rate would dip when you got to Plat+ and Diamond+, but it doesn't, it gets higher. That's a linear way of thinking about it. It's not necessarily that Shaco players plat+ get worse. They are better ever so slightly. But there's waaaay more bad players than there are good Shaco players. And even less players that understand how to take advantage of the champions' weaknesses. That's why you see pro players banning Shaco. Because in soloQ he's an anomaly that, despite being easy to play against, he isn't someone they can reliably get practice from because 1. he's not gonna be played in competitive anytime soon so just off that it is a waste of time. And 2. it'd require playing in such a way that forces unconventional play from themselves and his teammates. Overall, the problem isn't that the Shaco players are winning. The problem is that other people are losing.
Hotarµ (NA)
: I don't understand all the hate or the calls for buffs on Shaco. Do you mind explaining a bit why you think Shaco needs buffs? From Iron all the way up to Diamond, Shaco has a 51-53% winrate (scaling upwards with ELO) with a 5-6% playrate. That's far from being bad, in fact he's quite strong at the moment. I can understand his E feeling weak but surely he's got to have power somewhere because players of all levels are performing well with him. Edit: Also, Ignite has been one of the most commonly picked and strong spells for a long time, it has nothing to do with Shaco or your post. Almost everyone takes it in every role in every ELO.
> [{quoted}](name=Hotarµ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YUIWPpVa,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-01-15T19:59:21.814+0000) > > I don't understand all the hate or the calls for buffs on Shaco. Do you mind explaining a bit why you think Shaco needs buffs? > > From Iron all the way up to Diamond, Shaco has a 51-53% winrate (scaling upwards with ELO) with a 5-6% playrate. That's far from being bad, in fact he's quite strong at the moment. I can understand his E feeling weak but surely he's got to have power somewhere because players of all levels are performing well with him. If you rely solely on winrate to tell you what makes something good or bad then you're relying on a number based on a population that don't know what they're doing in the first place. That doesn't mean Shaco is good. Because if he was he'd be played competitively. That just means everyone is bad and allows Shaco to win due to that.
: People have been complaining about Ignite for the better part of 6 months. It wasn't you.
> [{quoted}](name=DrCyanide,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YUIWPpVa,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-15T19:54:26.393+0000) > > People have been complaining about Ignite for the better part of 6 months. It wasn't you. Yeah I pretty much knew that. Still sort of trolling but also a hint of confusion because ignite is far from being a problem.
Rioter Comments
: More like laners are tired of jungle always deciding the game. I'm excited for Jungle to be seeing somethings pulled back from them. Even during the feared "ardent" meta, bot lane was butchered even though, in combination with support itemization, it was also a jungle has way too much fucking power of the goddamn game.
> [{quoted}](name=OtterlyLost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5X1ZiZEv,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-01-08T13:43:25.269+0000) > > More like laners are tired of jungle always deciding the game. I'm excited for Jungle to be seeing somethings pulled back from them. Even during the feared "ardent" meta, bot lane was butchered even though, in combination with support itemization, it was also a jungle has way too much fucking power of the goddamn game. It sounds like you kind of didn't read... Anything I said and just decided to make a bunch of broad statements that mean nothing.
: I love jungle mains. Strongest role in the game for seasons, but better don't nerf it. There is literally nothing worse than having an autofilled jungler while the enemy jungler is permanently pressuring everything.
> [{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5X1ZiZEv,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-01-08T13:41:19.168+0000) > > I love jungle mains. > Strongest role in the game for seasons, but better don't nerf it. I wouldn't say "stongest for seasons". But... I guess depends on your definition.
: Let's Nerf Jungle...
Oh and nerf Triumph. Every single jungler(and others) is just going to take it now that stats aren't attached to specific rune sets. That's no fun. And maybe Kha isolated W shouldn't stop you from moving, yeah? : )
Rioter Comments
AIQ (NA)
: Yeah , but it's not 100 I suggest going to the practice tool and testing it out I cannot emulate it myself. What champion are you using? What ability are you using? What gold value are you near? I get -50g for using any ability after spending over the limit. Only 1 time on Shyvana.
Regardless it is a bug for it to say -100g.
AIQ (NA)
: Per ability? Futures market cost 50 to use upon leaving base or entering combat after a purchase. Using an ability counts as entering combat in the shop so Globals cannot be abused.
> [{quoted}](name=AIQ,realm=NA,application-id=LqLKtMpN,discussion-id=Qm75iaKb,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-29T17:53:59.259+0000) > > Per ability? Futures market cost 50 to use upon leaving base or entering combat after a purchase. Using an ability counts as entering combat in the shop so Globals cannot be abused. It says "-100g" above my head after I use an ability. Never seen the fact that there was a lending fee before.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: I want you to tell me if someone in your game has a skin on, but you can't see it. That's usually why you can't attack anything but enemy champs.
That's not this. I mean I never really paid attention to something like that but I assume that works in a different way. In my case, I can't target anything. Not champion. Not npcs. Nothing.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Milton Fletcher,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3IEAlGXu,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-06T00:01:21.758+0000) > > could it be because actual statistics prove that most games end early? > > could it be? It could also be that statistics don't say everything. Same argument why for a champion shouldn't be considered "OP" just because they have a high winrate. But if you want statistics there are graphs that show Renekton's declining winrate as time passes within games. According to your logic, this "proves" he does fall off as time passes. > > ive yet to see a renekton on my team with half a brain top lose his lane. Good for you. I'm sure your personal experience outweighs everything everyone else is saying as well as the massive amounts of video evidence. Not to say that he shouldn't win lane. He wins most lanes. The problem is he doesn't win hard enough to outweigh the inevitable de-escalation versus champions that are also good @ laning and scale much better. > > hes literally desigend to shit on melee champs. He's designed to apply pressure very early and keep pressuring. This does not mean he necessarily wins versus ALL melee champions. This just means he has a huge edge. There's still counterplay in various aspects of his gameplay. Especially if you have champions that can potentially play around him like Gnar, Camille, Irelia etc.
Oh! One more thing: it helps that a lot of champions that are good at what Renekton does (Gnar, Kennen, Ryze etc.) are so very versatile. Even if you intend to pick them for their splitpush prowess it helps knowing that you can build for teamfight if you think that splitpushing option doesn't seem favorable in the current situation. Renekton can't really do that. Or I guess I should say, he "could". But only in the same way a Tryndamere or a Jax "can". That being they are not great at it. Not like the aforementioned champions. Just another reason in the endless sea of reasons why Renekton is performing terribly in soloQ as well as basically not even picked in competitive.
: could it be because actual statistics prove that most games end early? could it be? ive yet to see a renekton on my team with half a brain top lose his lane. ive yet to see that. hes literally desigend to shit on melee champs.
> [{quoted}](name=Milton Fletcher,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3IEAlGXu,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-06T00:01:21.758+0000) > > could it be because actual statistics prove that most games end early? > > could it be? It could also be that statistics don't say everything. Same argument why for a champion shouldn't be considered "OP" just because they have a high winrate. But if you want statistics there are graphs that show Renekton's declining winrate as time passes within games. According to your logic, this "proves" he does fall off as time passes. > > ive yet to see a renekton on my team with half a brain top lose his lane. Good for you. I'm sure your personal experience outweighs everything everyone else is saying as well as the massive amounts of video evidence. Not to say that he shouldn't win lane. He wins most lanes. The problem is he doesn't win hard enough to outweigh the inevitable de-escalation versus champions that are also good @ laning and scale much better. > > hes literally desigend to shit on melee champs. He's designed to apply pressure very early and keep pressuring. This does not mean he necessarily wins versus ALL melee champions. This just means he has a huge edge. There's still counterplay in various aspects of his gameplay. Especially if you have champions that can potentially play around him like Gnar, Camille, Irelia etc.
: keep using that "doesnt scale well" bullshit and see where it gets you when ti comes to real conversation. renekton doesnt fall off. games do not go over 30 minutes. renekton does not fall off stop defedning him with this excuse, he needs tuning down or a rewoork.
> [{quoted}](name=Milton Fletcher,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3IEAlGXu,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-09-05T23:29:24.729+0000) > > keep using that "doesnt scale well" bullshit and see where it gets you when ti comes to real conversation. > > renekton doesnt fall off. ...Do you have any actual evidence to back this up? Most players;professional or otherwise agree that he does. And it's been shown so many times in pro play and soloQ games on stream of Renekton losing so many 1v1s past laning phase because so many other champions have item spikes and Renekton basically doesn't. Him being weaker than most other top laners past laning phase is the reason why he doesn't scale well. That's what you'll have to disprove. > > games do not go over 30 minutes. ..Yes, they do? Lol I had 2 40 minute games just today. And plenty more that go over 30 before that.
: renekton atm has the best and easiest laning phase vs melees. playing vs him is worse than pantheon because even if u gank him, he will always get away if he has half a brain and isnt pushed up with 10 hp. the damage and sustain he has with his innate tankiness is what makes him busted beyond belief. but by all means lets keep it as it is because lcs doesnt play him
> [{quoted}](name=Milton Fletcher,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3IEAlGXu,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-09-05T22:05:41.711+0000) > > renekton atm has the best and easiest laning phase vs melees. > > playing vs him is worse than pantheon because even if u gank him, he will always get away if he has half a brain and isnt pushed up with 10 hp. > > the damage and sustain he has with his innate tankiness is what makes him busted beyond belief. > > but by all means lets keep it as it is because lcs doesnt play him I mean... Yeah? Far from the point of this thread- but Renekton is not as busted as you might think. His "innate tankiness" is his sustain and ult. If he doesn't have those things he's relatively easy to kill. The whole reason he's not picked in competitive is because he does pretty much 1 thing and he's not even the best at it. That being smashing in 1v1 scenarios and getting sidelane pressure off of it. Ex of better splitpushers: Camille, Fiora, Jax, Ryze, Darius, Dr. Mundo, Gnar, Kled, Shen and potentially even more. This doesn't change for soloQ. Even in more favorable matchups it's not like he necessarily wins. Champions who can split safely and escape make Renek's splitpush negligible. Ex: Aatrox, Tryndamere, Singed, Riven. The reason he's not picked=why he's mediocre is because he's below so many champions in priority and doesn't scale well at all.
: > [{quoted}](name=its ya boy Pyke,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3IEAlGXu,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-09-05T20:11:39.283+0000) > > Still does literally nothing. I mean the other changes are probably okay. From an effectual standpoint. 5 damage off his level 3 E, though? Is that supposed to be a takeaway? Really? It's 5 damage off an increased value on PBE. It's still a net buff in damage. Live damage is 55 / 100 / 145 / 190 / 235 PBE damage is 70 / 115 / 160 / 205 / 250
> It's 5 damage off an increased value on PBE. It's still a net buff in damage. > Live damage is 55 / 100 / 145 / 190 / 235 > PBE damage is 70 / 115 / 160 / 205 / 250 ..I know. I am saying that the "nerf" after the buffs seems absolutely pointless.
Doge2020 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=its ya boy Pyke,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3IEAlGXu,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-09-05T20:11:39.283+0000) > > Still does literally nothing. I mean the other changes are probably okay. From an effectual standpoint. 5 damage off his level 3 E, though? Is that supposed to be a takeaway? Really? that is kinda big, the armor reduction got buffed and e damage too so I am prob expecting renekton players to try use a fury enhanced e more for the armor reduction and damage.
> that is kinda big, the armor reduction got buffed and e damage too so I am prob expecting renekton players to try use a fury enhanced e more for the armor reduction and damage. The changes as a whole is effectual. But they aren't big in any way. The buffs don't change most matchups. It'll probably make the matchups he already wins make him win ever so slightly harder but in the grand scheme of things it changes nothing. That's not even my point, though. I'm saying the -5 damage AFTER the buffs doesn't matter in the slightest.
Doge2020 (NA)
: I looked at the patch notes that are on the PBE rn and it looks like renekton’s e base damage got increased by 10 damage for each lvl. Doesn’t look like a nerf at all, unless they changed it and nobody has updated the League Wikia site yet.
No I am aware. I am saying that taking that 5 damage away even after the buffing of it is negligible at best.
: It's in relation to a change already on PBE. The full changelist is: Slice and Dice (E) Dice Fury Bonus: armor reduction increased from 15/20/25/30/35% to 25/27.5/30/32.5/35% damage increased from 60/105/150/195/240 to 70/115/160/205/250
Still does literally nothing. I mean the other changes are probably okay. From an effectual standpoint. 5 damage off his level 3 E, though? Is that supposed to be a takeaway? Really?
Rioter Comments
: yeah they need to completely revert the nerf to {{summoner:12}} and the buff to {{summoner:14}} hell {{summoner:12}} is like {{summoner:4}} i wouldn't CARE it if was taken on every lane. it SHOULD be an option for every lane if they want it
> [{quoted}](name=SwiftKitten88,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TYzuVARK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-08-30T20:49:23.581+0000) > > yeah they need to completely revert the nerf to {{summoner:12}} and the buff to {{summoner:14}} > > hell {{summoner:12}} is like {{summoner:4}} i wouldn't CARE it if was taken on every lane. it SHOULD be an option for every lane if they want it This is silly. A world with 5 ignites is better than a world with 5 teleports. If everyone could carry teleport then it would make macro meaningless. Everyone would be too intimidated to make a play because it suddenly just turns into a 5v5 clownfiesta. The whole purpose of outpathing the enemy jungler or something small like that and being able to take enemy jg's blue buff or even just a wolf camp would be nullified if everyone plays accordingly. Competitive would be a standstill every game for a good 30 minutes if you just give everyone global threat. That's why the more teleports there are the less it serves its intended purpose. That is to proactively or reactively make plays around the map. Can't do that if nobody is making plays. At least with 5 ignites you see more individual plays. Ignite is not, at all, overpowered. Its buff has hardly made any sort of relevant changes to the game. It dictates how 1v1s play out. But the only people who can dictate whether or not a 1v1 even happens are by the players. If you can't 1v1 someone then just don't! It's that simple. As long as it's that easy there's no reason to even suggest ignite is overpowered. It's just dumb. TP does literally everything while ignite does 1 unreliable thing.
Poske (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Jester Monocle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA47nnqg,comment-id=001d0000,timestamp=2018-05-17T16:37:05.476+0000) > > Oh! So, you mean I SHOULDN'T have the ability to punish someone for playing aggressively? Wait? Isn't that, like, 95% of what the role is? Ganking? Perhaps they are playing agressively because they are better fking players. 95% GANKING? you see thats the problem you cant have 5% farming 95% ganking fk no Jungle has been killing any 1vs1 potentional in high elo for a while now. I am tired of people turtling under both towers and their junglers > > Junglers can't just fucking teleport. A comment like this proves you have put 0 effort into learning how to track junglers and play according to their location and rotations. You're always gonna get punished no matter how shit the role gets because of this. I have been to challenger 4 times, I didnt know you can reach that without tracking junglers thanks you for being such an expert The time jungler spent clearing jungle was to low unless we are talking about low tier jungler champions > I mean, look: credit to those players for getting first blood before my initial clear. It's probably not the most optimal play and is likely more representative of my own laner's skill level. Regardless, junglers having a window of opportunity to make an impact in the game is perfectly reasonable for a role that cannot out-level solo lanes for the rest of the game. You do realise that before this patch apart from Xayah And Kaisa junglers specificly AD junglers and Eve were the most influencal thing on summoner rift > Okay, you don't seem to understand how much scuttle is worth. Let me pain a picture: First off, if my top laner gets first blooded. I DON'T need to soak the wave because he can just tp back and get that wave. Which is, in all likelihood, what he wants because it means that he still gets xp/gold. Therefore, he really doesn't lose much at all. Even if their top laner did get a slight edge; it is common knowledge to say that top lane doesn't end there. Me, on the other hand, I DO lose xp and gold because my laner lost lane priority that means I lose river control. And if I lose river control then I lose scuttle. And if I lose scuttle and if I lose scuttle then their jungler is ahead of me by almost the same amount as an assist and 2 camps. That's not even the worst part. If my laner DOESN'T regain lane priority before next scuttle crab, assuming I get unlucky and the scuttle spawns topside, then I LOSE that scuttle crab again. Which sets me ANOTHER level behind. Do you see the trend going on? I will ALWAYS be weaker than their jungler because my top laner fucked up before I could even do anything. And if i'm weaker; I can't help him because we lose 2v2s. All I see is triggered players like you not understanding that NOT EVERY FKING TOPLANE/MIDLANE CHAMPION HAS PRIORITY Just drop the fking scuttle if your midlaner/toplaner is weaker dont waste Time pinging or watchign enemy do scuttle YES YOU ARE TAKING A LOSS BUT THATS BETTER THEN LOSING 2VS2 AND TAKING EVEN BIGGER LOSS Early game scuttle spawns on both sides so there is no fking issue there ** You know its fascinating how the moment junglers become a lil reliant on laners you all become crybabies **
> [{quoted}](name=Poske,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA47nnqg,comment-id=001d00000000,timestamp=2018-05-18T06:03:55.455+0000) > > Perhaps they are playing agressively because they are better fking players. That's the stupidest logic ever. I don't just senselessly run into the enemy jungler without thinking about the match-up. That, by itself, doesn't make me a "better" player. If you're in a gun fight you don't just run forward and repeatedly shoot the other guy even though he's behind cover. Being aggressive doesn't mean "good". In this specific scenario, it's being stupid; thoughtless. > > Jungle has been killing any 1vs1 potentional in high elo for a while now. No. Ignorance has been. > I am tired of people turtling under both towers and their junglers At this point you're just not saying anything concrete. I'm sitting here bringing up solutions to your problems and all you're doing is repeatedly bringing the same problem up without even thinking about what I am saying. Pointless argument. > > I have been to challenger 4 times Sure you have! Your OP.GG is indicative of that. Yeah! Totally! And hey! EUNE Challenger's a real toughie! I hear they finally realized that buying control wards is helpful for your vision gain! > I didnt know you can reach that without tracking junglers thanks you for being such an expert You're welcome > > You do realise that before this patch apart from Xayah And Kaisa junglers specificly AD junglers and Eve were the most influencal thing on summoner rift You're fucking right! I totally forgot the only viable AD assassin, Kha'zix, even existed! Oh! My bad. We had one good champion. Really sorry for all you went through. But hey! At least mid laners have Zoe... And Leblanc, Azir, Anivia, Galio, Taliyah, Yasuo, Kassadin and a few other options like Super support Karma! But we do also got Eve. That one champion that gets countered by control wards. But you guys discovered that those are useful! So, don't worry about it. Her hype in EUNE should die down soon. > > All I see is triggered players like you not understanding that NOT EVERY FKING TOPLANE/MIDLANE CHAMPION HAS PRIORITY I don't even know what you're trying to say here. It kind of got garbled up with your rage-typing. Uh I don't know how you think priority works. But I'll explain it briefly: it starts with the respective champions. Which one is better early? That is the question you need to ask. Singed vs Renekton as an example, it's plain as day that Renekton has priority because he's just a stronger and better champion at that point in the game. So, yeah! If my laner is Singed vs Renekton; logically, I shouldn't be able to get scuttle crab. Because the enemy top laner picked a champion with priority whereas mine didn't. It can also happen unnaturally. Like if we both had carry top laners but mine died. In that case, you know what happens. > > Just drop the fking scuttle if your midlaner/toplaner is weaker dont waste Time pinging or watchign enemy do scuttle Well, I obviously have no other choice. No shit i'm gonna drop the scuttle. > YES YOU ARE TAKING A LOSS BUT THATS BETTER THEN LOSING 2VS2 AND TAKING EVEN BIGGER LOSS This is a funny argument because earlier you were talking about how some laners just "NEED" to be aggressive levels 1 and 2 but can't because the jungler comes and zones you off a few minions. Maybe you lose 2 or 3 minions. Maybe one of those minions' even a cannon. That's pretty unlucky, yeah? You lose, like, maybe 50-60 gold..? Why don't you just take THAT loss instead of the bigger loss? I mean, losing scuttle is gonna be a trend for me; I know that much. However, early scuttle is worth 70 gold (and it goes up) and basically half a level's worth of xp. 115 xp. Junglers are FORCED to accept such a huge loss so that we don't suicide. But you're unwilling to play smart because you don't wanna lose 50-60 gold..? Because you wanna solo kill at a very specific point in the game? I feel a hint of hypocrisy coming from you; just saying. > > Early game scuttle spawns on both sides so there is no fking issue there At first, then it spawns in 1 side of the map based on RNG. Or did you not read that part? If it ends up on the side of a losing lane then that's a lost scuttle.
: As a laner, the less relevant the jungler is the more I enjoy playing the game.
> [{quoted}](name=Blue Ping King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA47nnqg,comment-id=002b,timestamp=2018-05-17T17:11:31.681+0000) > > As a laner, the less relevant the jungler is the more I enjoy playing the game. The jungler will always be relevant no matter how shit the role is. It's just a matter of how much control the better junglers have.
Naymliss (NA)
: Here's the thing- when you play toplane, and you're in a matchup where you have to go aggressive level 1 or 2, you just couldn't do it period. Why? You do that, the wave pushes into them, and no amount of wards will stop the enemy jg from just sitting there zoning you off of your cs.
> [{quoted}](name=Naymliss,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA47nnqg,comment-id=00110001,timestamp=2018-05-17T14:18:58.292+0000) > > Here's the thing- when you play toplane, and you're in a matchup where you have to go aggressive level 1 or 2, you just couldn't do it period. Why? You do that, the wave pushes into them, and no amount of wards will stop the enemy jg from just sitting there zoning you off of your cs. You don't HAVE to play aggressive levels 1 or 2. Any laner that can and should do that is a laner that can do it rather safely. But laners like Fiora, Gangplank, Camille do just fine playing slow in lane since they scale well and have multiple ways of exerting pressure. If anything, you should play early on to waste the jungler's time. Hopping back and forth inbetween safe and aggressive pockets in lane to give the illusion that you're gankable and give your jungler an edge. Of course, always keep in mind the matchups when you think about how you're going to play the lane.
Hügö (EUW)
: I think the biggest problem is the exp changes. Pre 8.10 there was 1 time when you were ahead for a few seconds of the laners the rest of the game you were even, when you were super fed, or you were behind, when you were even with the others. So I don't understand the changes as it sets you so far behind exp wise you can't do shit.
> [{quoted}](name=Hügö,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA47nnqg,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-05-17T15:21:48.808+0000) > > I think the biggest problem is the exp changes. Pre 8.10 there was 1 time when you were ahead for a few seconds of the laners the rest of the game you were even, when you were super fed, or you were behind, when you were even with the others. So I don't understand the changes as it sets you so far behind exp wise you can't do shit. For the most part, I agree. There was a small window in which you are a level higher than laners but it's very telegraphed so, on paper, it should hardly matter but laners get punished during it anyways. If anything, Riot needed a way to just slightly shift xp towards the later parts of the game. And for the record, you can still gank early and have an xp lead. Just do blue-gromp-scuttle and gank top. Or red-gromp-scuttle and gank bot.
Poske (EUNE)
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=Poske,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA47nnqg,comment-id=001d,timestamp=2018-05-17T09:29:25.747+0000) > > THAT IS THE WHOLE FKING POINT YOU DUM DUM. IMAGINE BEING A FKING LANER AND NEVER BEING ABLE TO 1VS1 Oh! So, you mean I SHOULDN'T have the ability to punish someone for playing aggressively? Wait? Isn't that, like, 95% of what the role is? Ganking? > BECAUSE JUNGLER CAN BE EVERYWHERE AS SOON AS YOU HIT LEVEL 3 ONWARDS Junglers can't just fucking teleport. A comment like this proves you have put 0 effort into learning how to track junglers and play according to their location and rotations. You're always gonna get punished no matter how shit the role gets because of this. > > DO YOU AHVE ANY IDEA HOW HIGH ELO LOOKS LIKE? EVEN WITH THIS CHANGES EVERYONE IS TERRIFIED TO 1V1 AND JUST AFK FARMS > > **Hurr DURR I lost 20 SECONDS now Its more likely that silvers ll first blood each other before I gank. And they might actually be level 3 while I am level 3** I mean, look: credit to those players for getting first blood before my initial clear. It's probably not the most optimal play and is likely more representative of my own laner's skill level. Regardless, junglers having a window of opportunity to make an impact in the game is perfectly reasonable for a role that cannot out-level solo lanes for the rest of the game. > > And no you dont get more behind because your laner gets killed at lane. What kind of retarded logic is this. If anything you should soak his wave then and compensate his death. His death doesnt influence you to a point its ever worth mentioning reggardless of scuttle Okay, you don't seem to understand how much scuttle is worth. Let me pain a picture: First off, if my top laner gets first blooded. I DON'T need to soak the wave because he can just tp back and get that wave. Which is, in all likelihood, what he wants because it means that he still gets xp/gold. Therefore, he really doesn't lose much at all. Even if their top laner did get a slight edge; it is common knowledge to say that top lane doesn't end there. Me, on the other hand, I DO lose xp and gold because my laner lost lane priority that means I lose river control. And if I lose river control then I lose scuttle. And if I lose scuttle and if I lose scuttle then their jungler is ahead of me by almost the same amount as an assist and 2 camps. That's not even the worst part. If my laner DOESN'T regain lane priority before next scuttle crab, assuming I get unlucky and the scuttle spawns topside, then I LOSE that scuttle crab again. Which sets me ANOTHER level behind. Do you see the trend going on? I will ALWAYS be weaker than their jungler because my top laner fucked up before I could even do anything. And if i'm weaker; I can't help him because we lose 2v2s.
: Bruh scuttle is like dragon at this point, this is such a joke. If the jungler dont have their scuttle, you might as well dc cause they will be a lower lvl then the support in no time.
> [{quoted}](name=SilverLine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA47nnqg,comment-id=0019,timestamp=2018-05-17T07:41:35.409+0000) > > Bruh scuttle is like dragon at this point, this is such a joke. If the jungler dont have their scuttle, you might as well dc cause they will be a lower lvl then the support in no time. Or if your laners don't get scuttle. Don't just assume scuttle's are just the luxury of the jungler. Famously, whenever something this consistently valuable is on the map; laners start taking smite and getting a piece of that action.
: The level 3 gank top worked in high elo and just in low. Are you going to say that the level 3 gank works in high elo because top laners are "dumb"? It works because if your not playing a tank top then you need to constantly apply pressure from level 1 to avoid getting out scaled if the other person is playing a tank and to have a chance of killing them for a lead. Now good top laners are more freely able to gain a lead without some asshat in the jg coming out of river/bush before they are level 3 murdering them for daring to play aggressive or at best just stare them down before leaving and giving lane control to their laner because your trash can jg is too busy afk farming.
> [{quoted}](name=Oakleaf Ranger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA47nnqg,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2018-05-17T04:14:54.657+0000) > > The level 3 gank top worked in high elo and just in low. Are you going to say that the level 3 gank works in high elo because top laners are "dumb"? Yes. > It works because if your not playing a tank top then you need to constantly apply pressure from level 1 to avoid getting out scaled if the other person is playing a tank and to have a chance of killing them for a lead. No, you don't. Because you outscale anyways. Carry top laners have always outscaled. Unless you're Jayce then it's pretty much an AD Leblanc but better because you can poke from long range. So, realistically, it doesn't matter because Jayce doesn't have to step too far up to play aggressively. Y'know, there's also just playing 'smart'. Like, keeping track of the enemy jungler. All that jazz that should help you in deciding when to play aggressively and when not to. Carry top laners are harder to play, yes. But suggesting that they don't scale well is... Probably the most ludicrous thing you could ever say. Their long-standing effectiveness and flexibility is probably the whole reason they're picked. > > Now good top laners are more freely able to gain a lead without some asshat in the jg Not true. You're still gonna get ganked for playing stupid. These changes did a number on jungle but that's not something that has changed as drastically as you think. > or at best just stare them down before leaving and giving lane control to their laner because your trash can jg is too busy afk farming. So, the scenario you set up here sounds pretty straight-forward. Your jungler gave up lane priority for some reason. Whether it's because he knows you lose 2v2 skirmish or you simply aren't worth the time. It is either one. The jungler that's staring at you is a legitimate strat to give the enemy laner priority. All sounds pretty normal to me.
: Supports are overpowered right now, more specifically enchantresses. They currently face the issue that jungle had until this patch; a bunch of reward for no effort. They literally get gold for walking around with their starter items. If that doesn't scream bullshit I don't know what does. They also have the cheapest items in the game. Huge issue in my opinion. Morde is currently in a really weak state. Not that I care too much, because I'm nowhere near a one trick. The people I stream for enjoy morde so I play morde. I'm also trying to be the guy that gets morde top to Master tier. I can see it working so far. And no one that gets to High diamond lacks game knowledge. No one. They can be biased. But they do have the knowledge. They can just choose to ignore said knowledge. I would argue top and mid lane are the most mechanically intensive roles in the game. Top lane has the most diverse champion pool in the entire game. In order to play top effectively you have to understand hundreds of matchups at a very fine level. I've played every role in this game besides ADC, and that's only because I don't like ADC's farm centric playstyle. I used to one trick Azir. Bet you didn't know that. I also used to one trick Jungle. Bet you didn't know that either. I used to main Gangplank as well. One tricked him all the way to diamond, mainly playing him mid. Out of all those roles I would say top is the most difficult and also the most rewarding. Support can be relaxing, and I did enjoy it as a secondary role. Never mained it. But I haven't lost a support game on my main in quite some time. Not that I play it often but the times do arise when I get autofilled there. Btw, morde is no longer a lane bully really. Ever since pre season he can be beat by a lot of things. It's his mid game and dragon power spike that are so great now. I have no idea how mechanics even got pulled up in whatever this was. It was just an Ad hominem attack really. And it failed on all fronts. You'll find me as a lot of things, but hypocritical will never be one of them.
> [{quoted}](name=Apocyliptic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA47nnqg,comment-id=000600010000,timestamp=2018-05-17T02:24:42.133+0000) > They literally get gold for walking around with their starter items. Technically, we all get gold just for standing around. Hyuk! > Morde is currently in a really weak state. Not that I care too much, because I'm nowhere near a one trick. The next champion you play you have a 48% winrate with. You're a one-trick. > I'm also trying to be the guy that gets morde top to Master tier. I can see it working so far. Confidence? Respectable. Something tells me you don't have proper game knowledge for that, however. > > And no one that gets to High diamond lacks game knowledge. No one. They can be biased. But they do have the knowledge. They can just choose to ignore said knowledge. Mmmm! Uhhh... This is NA. I say this as a guy whose beaten multiple self-proclaimed and few proven "smurfs" of the kind who're even Masters. Actually fuck that! This is coming from a guy who's watched High elo Korean players miss out on a huge lead- not for any part of them being necessarily "bad" players. But entirely because they didn't think or know about that specific thing they could've done. NA diamond players... Very bad just on their own. But even moreso they are fucking dumb. They don't know the first thing about the game. Huge joke to even suggest it. > > I would argue top and mid lane are the most mechanically intensive roles in the game. Maokai and Galio are some really hard champions yeah. Hah! All jokes aside I... I agree. Yeah, I pretty much agree except I'd say Mid is single-handedly the most mechanically intensive role. Hands down. Top lane has the most diverse champion pool in the entire game. In order to play top effectively you have to understand hundreds of matchups at a very fine level. Diverse champion pool? Yeah. Matchups? Nah... Not in this region. For the most part, you either pick Darius and pubstomp or pick Ornn and... pubstomp. > I've played every role in this game besides ADC 8 years... You'd think you'd try it out for one game. Sheesh! > I used to one trick Azir. No you didn't. You only played him a few games. Unless it's back around seasons 1-4 in which case you didn't even play ranked. So, kind of doesn't matter. > I also used to one trick Jungle. No you didn't. You probably mainly played Rengar in the jungle. Bit of Udyr. I'm inclined to assume that a small portion of Rengar games was Rengar top. At that time, you mainly played Morde just as you do now. > Bet you didn't know that either. I used to main Gangplank as well. One tricked him all the way to diamond, mainly playing him mid. No you didn't. Unless you mean in season 7 and you happened to win your final 2 promo games with him. Then, sure you technically did. But you only played about 10 games. And you lost the other 8. Most of the games you played last season also was just Mordekaiser games. > > Out of all those roles I would say top is the most difficult and also the most rewarding. You'd have to kill the enemy top laner, like, 3 times in a row before you can effectively snowball top lane. It couldn't be less rewarding considering the game-state is entirely dependent on snowballing the game as fast as possible. > I have no idea how mechanics even got pulled up in whatever this was. It was just an Ad hominem attack really. And it failed on all fronts. You'll find me as a lot of things, but hypocritical will never be one of them. Hypocritical? Maybe not. But you're certainly the biggest lying sack-of-shit I've ever seen in my entire life. Cheers mate!
: i wish i was more educated to debate these jungle changes with you big brained jungle mains. from my perspective, it seems good that there are some changes to jungle. were they the right changes? i dont know, me small brain. but i knew there had to be some changes. it honestly felt like jungle controlled every part of the game . think about it, you're essentially a second laner FOR EVERY LANE who can show up unannounced and uninvited (get the fck out of my lane!) and secure a kill, summoner or objective, and change the lane for your idiot teammates. and they did a damn good job at it too, appearing with higher or equal level to your teammates lane, despite being 1/2 the farm, doing 1/2 the work against NPC enemies who have no special abilities or shit to dodge. now that i think about it, why was such a braindead role so strong anyway ? ... ah yes. again, dont listen to me im an actual idiot. Foreal
> [{quoted}](name=Ignite Excited,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA47nnqg,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-05-17T01:14:06.534+0000) > > it honestly felt like jungle controlled every part of the game . think about it, you're essentially a second laner FOR EVERY LANE who can show up unannounced and uninvited (get the fck out of my lane!) and secure a kill, summoner or objective, and change the lane for your idiot teammates. Well, heh... That's... The role of... a jungler? Like, yeah that's... Kind of what junglers do. That's the whole selling point. I mean, if you ever go into lane thinking "yeah this is a 1v1" then, by all means, you deserve to lose. It's always gonna be a 2v2. If you wanna avoid the jungler then you need to take the necessary precautions. Think about where the jungler is on the map and play according to their location and movements. Believe me when I say there's a million and 1 ways to avoid ganks. Getting ganked is entirely your fault as a laner. > and they did a damn good job at it too, appearing with higher or equal level to your teammates lane, despite being 1/2 the farm, doing 1/2 the work against NPC enemies who have no special abilities or shit to dodge. So, kind of funny how this works. Uh you got punished. They have an xp lead for punishing you... Uhhh... Yeah. > > now that i think about it, why was such a braindead role so strong anyway ? ... ah yes. Ah yes! A role that trains the mind rather than right-clicking. "Braindead". > > again, dont listen to me im an actual idiot. Foreal
: Oh, God forbid your blatantly overpowered role got tuned down to an acceptable level. What you are experiencing is something Laners have to deal with on a daily basis: It's called getting behind. Previously, your entire role was PvE. You fucking farmed jungle camps. There was no challenge. It was the same thing every game. Same two paths every game, either a level 4 clear, or level 3 clear into gank. Now pathing changes up based on gamestate. Now You can get behind for poor play, rather than just farming camps and staying at least even in levels all game. Welcome to a new experience. What you're experiencing is called league of legends. Where you actually get punished for doing poorly. Just like a top laner gets punished if he dies twice, you get punished if you lose every scuttle. Jungle has been too strong for too long. Bad players are an entire 9 divisions higher than they should be because of this one role. Put a jungle only player in a lane and they will feed and be useless all game. Put a laner in the jungle and 9 times out 10 you get an acceptable if not a better than average performance. And that's because jungle is too strong. So it inflates players winrates and thus their elo.
> [{quoted}](name=Apocyliptic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA47nnqg,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-05-16T22:35:27.398+0000) > > Oh, God forbid your blatantly overpowered role got tuned down to an acceptable level. What you are experiencing is something Laners have to deal with on a daily basis: It's called getting behind. Previously, your entire role was PvE. You fucking farmed jungle camps. There was no challenge. It was the same thing every game. Same two paths every game, either a level 4 clear, or level 3 clear into gank. The difference between getting "behind" and what I described is: we have no power to comeback. As a jungler, I have no actual control over how I achieve river control. If the respective laners lose- I lose river control. See how that works? And if I lose scuttle control, which I can't stress enough that it is out of my hands, then I am set behind... Permanently. Assuming the enemy jungler doesn't give away a free scuttle because he was dumb. This isn't called getting "behind" this is called losing lane lottery. Also, yes... Our role demands us to clear jungle camps that's... That's what we do? Kind of a challenge in of itself considering there's an opposing jungler doing the same thing and trying to do it FASTER. And if they end up doing it FASTER than me then they probably get first blood because of people like you, who I assume has fallen victim to the level 3 gank (the most predictable gank of all time) then they get a HUGE lead! And yeah, it wasn't the healthiest thing the world but that isn't something to punish junglers for. It's something to punish laners for not predicting a telegraphed gank. Level 4 clear is just a full clear. That's always gonna be part of the meta on some level. Like... I mean, it wasn't the best because if the enemy jungler ganked then you kind of lost the game. But if you get away with it- yeah, it felt pretty good. But I wouldn't say it set the jungler any further ahead than laners in the long run. It's just a way to gain an advantage over enemy jungler so long as they didn't get a successful gank off. > > Now pathing changes up based on gamestate. No, it's just "get the scuttle crab". And potentially not even for the jungler. This could easily turn into a smite meta for Mids and ADC. > Now You can get behind for poor play, rather than just farming camps and staying at least even in levels all game. Well, you're wrong about the "poor play" thing. Because it's literally not in my control if I lose river control. But you're right about one thing: when their laners win and I have 0 access to river; we're certainly NOT gonna be even in levels. > Welcome to a new experience. What you're experiencing is called league of legends. > Just like a top laner gets punished if he dies twice, you get punished if you lose every scuttle. Well, considering it's either I get ALL the scuttles or none. Soooo... > > Jungle has been too strong for too long. Last meta for junglers was literally a race early on and then just doing almost nothing for the rest of the game. "Strong" probably an overstatement. Let's not even talk about season 5; that was a nightmare! > Bad players are an entire 9 divisions higher than they should be because of this one role. You can tell this guy tunes into Hashinshin's streams. > Put a jungle only player in a lane and they will feed and be useless all game. I mean, I've had my fair share of hit-or-miss laning experiences but did you ever think that maybe the jungler isn't....... As good in that role than, y'know, players who main that role? It's a possibility. > Put a laner in the jungle and 9 times out 10 you get an acceptable if not a better than average performance. Now you can just tell this guy is trying to talk about himself. > And that's because jungle is too strong. So it inflates players winrates and thus their elo. The role, in which, you literally have no control for the first 2 minutes of the game; which is when first bloods tend to happen more often than not? That's the role that inflates player winrates? I feel like i'm missing something here. Do you actually just gank and THEN do your initial clear? I've never tried that strat!
Salson (EUNE)
: I have not been level 3 ganked today. Life was good. In all honesty, I think Jungle is about as strong as Top at the moment. Overall it goes something like like Bot>Mid>Jungle/Top. Idk, If Bot gets decently nerfed in the next patch, the game should be fine. Jungle might be a bit weaker than before, but overall in line with everyone else.
> [{quoted}](name=Salson,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA47nnqg,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-05-16T21:47:45.352+0000) > > I have not been level 3 ganked today. > Life was good. To be honest? That, to me, just says you're falling victim to a very predictable gank timer. Not so much the fault of jungle. > > In all honesty, I think Jungle is about as strong as Top at the moment. > Overall it goes something like like Bot>Mid>Jungle/Top. I would say jungle, by default, is stronger than Top as a role because... Well, map presence. All that pasazz. But I would also say that Top is stronger than Jungle in terms of champion pool, strength, carry ability etc. > > Idk, If Bot gets decently nerfed in the next patch, the game should be fine. > Jungle might be a bit weaker than before, but overall in line with everyone else. Bot doesn't get nerfed. Not effectively. Think about the fact that ADCs aren't necessarily gonna be any easier to kill just because they traded armor for HP. It just changes the dynamic of laning phase a little bit. Matchups should be a little more important. The stronger AD should win. In essence, Caitlyn's gonna have a field day next patch. But the problem with bot is the Supports. It's too effective of a role because too many champions within it have the ability to kind do it all. Rakan is the prime example of this. He's a guy who can casually engage from across the lane and CC your entire team and still shield his ADC twice for the same amount of a Janna shield. You got Lulu who can turn the table with the click of a button. Braum who, for some reason, is one of the most threatening champions in the game. If that guy walks into your jungle you just gotta give the whole thing up. Not much of a choice! A lot of people argue that it is just that they get too much gold. I'd argue simply that they have too much stats. But then there's the gold increases for AD items. Specifically around the Zeal archetype. And that should slow down the scaling of a fair few of ADCs but I'd argue that with the change of bounties that it just creates an incentive to funnel gold into the ADC. Because now they just get basically all the gold. So, in a way, it's kind of an indirect buff that'll especially be prevalent in competitive play. And for all intents and purposes, we might see mids and AD getting smite because you could funnel scuttle crab xp/gold into carries instead of the jungler since it offers so much I am sure that'll be a discussion. So, if there was a point here: it is that jungle is not in a position to get "in line" with the other roles. It simply adapts. It has always adapted. That's consistently been the problem.
: State of the Jungle is a nightmare at the moment, a full clear needed to try and find any pressure on the map, but wait, you're too busy trying to duel a WW for scuttle waiting to see who from which lane arrives first. This has all but ruined every other Jungle that isn't already banned in the meta. Not to mention the runic echos nerf that killed Elise, Fiddle, AP Shaco, Ekko and a few other mage junglers I could be forgetting. How did this make it through PBE? Is no one giving any feed back? In my however long I've been playing this is maybe the 20th time I've ever logged into the forums and I felt it necessary to reply to this man's accurate depiction of the state of Jungle. 5 minutes for a level 4 battle for 2nd Rift Scuttler just to have the level 5 mid laner come down and give their two cents into the scuffle. It feels so bad to play, I wanted to /ff in the first 8 minutes of the game and my team was winning their lanes. But I felt as if I was doing nothing, because I was, I was farming the jungle and dancing with their jungler over these idiotic crabs. It feels as if Jungle has no impact, no say in the early/mid game. So why would anyone play this role.
> [{quoted}](name=1 HP Warrior,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA47nnqg,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-05-16T20:52:21.561+0000) > > State of the Jungle is a nightmare at the moment, a full clear needed to try and find any pressure on the map, but wait, you're too busy trying to duel a WW for scuttle waiting to see who from which lane arrives first. This has all but ruined every other Jungle that isn't already banned in the meta. Not to mention the runic echos nerf that killed Elise, Fiddle, AP Shaco, Ekko and a few other mage junglers I could be forgetting. How did this make it through PBE? Is no one giving any feed back? In my however long I've been playing this is maybe the 20th time I've ever logged into the forums and I felt it necessary to reply to this man's accurate depiction of the state of Jungle. 5 minutes for a level 4 battle for 2nd Rift Scuttler just to have the level 5 mid laner come down and give their two cents into the scuffle. It feels so bad to play, I wanted to /ff in the first 8 minutes of the game and my team was winning their lanes. But I felt as if I was doing nothing, because I was, I was farming the jungle and dancing with their jungler over these idiotic crabs. It feels as if Jungle has no impact, no say in the early/mid game. So why would anyone play this role. I mean... sigh.. Yeah. Idk what to tell you. I'm just the kind of person that doesn't necessarily fault Riot for ruining the jungle in such a way. It's a large change to the jungle. Just gotta hope they... change it back! But the Runic Echoes thing was just stupid. I can't even fathom why they would ever think that AP junglers would rather trade off 8% MS or 300 Mana. That's just silly.
Hügö (EUW)
: Had a game. Most fed player allways 2 leves behind. Nice
> > Had a game. Most fed player allways 2 leves behind. Nice Y'know it's funny. I played a bunch of games today and every single game I lost I felt I outperformed the opposing respectively. But uh... When I won? Not so much. I mean I wouldn't say I played worse but I never felt like I was winning. It's sad feeling.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ghazter,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA47nnqg,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-05-16T18:53:44.228+0000) > I WANNA SEE ELISE AND IVERN!!!! said no jungler ever
> [{quoted}](name=MistaFarenheit,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA47nnqg,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-16T18:56:28.802+0000) > > said no jungler ever To be fair, Elise is a pretty fun champion. I'd certainly like to see her.
: well as a jg main, shaco is dead. shaco use to be able to clear blue and gromp and invade red and usually kill the enemy jg and also get level 3. but now i have to get rift, which stinks since shaco is played as a early game jg, but the changes are killing early game jgs now.
> > as a jg main, shaco is dead. shaco use to be able to clear blue and gromp and invade red and usually kill the enemy jg and also get level 3. but now i have to get rift, which stinks since shaco is played as a early game jg, but the changes are killing early game jgs now. Well, I agree that Shaco is probably the worst jungler in the game right now. With maybe the exception of Fiddlesticks. However, I wouldn't say it kills early game junglers. Just early game junglers that... Can't fight early...
: I have no idea what these changes are I understand they needed and wanted to stop early jungle pressure but this is feel different.
> I understand they needed and wanted to stop early jungle pressure but this is feel different. Early jungle pressure wasn't necessarily a problem. It was a defense mechanism for, what essentially amounts to stupidity. You can't play top lane and expect to not get ganked around level 3. It was the most telegraphed gank timer in jungle history. I'm sorry if i'm punishing simply because you don't expect to be ganked @ level 3 even though it's probably happened to you in 95% of your games and- honestly, even now it's still gonna keep happening even if it's very punishing to junglers to trade scuttle crab for an early gank. But the argument there would be that you set your laner ahead, therefore, you get river control for the rest of the game. Unless they fuck up. In which case, you probably lose the game.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lilac Lacroix,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA47nnqg,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-05-17T01:26:49.354+0000) > No more stupid catch up experience for people who are 0-5 to get into the game after a single freakin' clear. Catch up EXP didn't get removed > No more bs back to back to back ganks, farming is an acceptable alternative, now. Just make sure you control your jungle, because guess what? You can gank more now if you have crab control since it gives much more gold/xp quicker and you can gank less if you don't have crab control. Except Junglers don't really control who gets crab laners getting ahead and being able to roam for the 2 v 1, 3 v 1 or even 4 v 1 do. > COUNTERJUNGLING is back, baby! And oh boy does it feel great. Means even less now because you steal less XP and it's all about that crab > TAKE THEIR ENTIRE JUNGLE ON YOUR SIDE. Crab gives nearly 2 camps worth of XP and more then gold then a camp and it takes less time to clear then every camp in the game. You can't even take 2 camps in that time and if your camps are up they can take them or they can also just take the crossmap jungle camps when the warning pops.
This is pretty much the exact comment I'd give to everyone arguing against me even though I said it in the fucking post. But fuck it I'll just rinse and repeat one by one to everyone arguing the exact things I am telling them about.
: Can you maybe wait more than a day to make a post like this? Do you honestly think you'll be able to make that kind of judgment so quickly? There are bound to be other examples, but I remember when Zac got his mini rework last year; everybody flipped out as his win rate plummeted immediately, and yet not long after, everybody complained about how overpowered he was as people actually started to learn him. Who's to say that this won't be the same way? I'm not arguing that it will be the greatest change ever, but I feel that it is best to reserve judgment in these kinds of situations until a proper amount of time has elapsed. What that time is varies from person to person, although I'd personally peg it at about a week at the very least.
> [{quoted}](name=Kairoptra,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bA47nnqg,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-05-16T22:50:36.173+0000) > > Can you maybe wait more than a day to make a post like this? Do you honestly think you'll be able to make that kind of judgment so quickly? I mean I can make that judgement so quickly because I've studied the role for so long. Regardless, kind of a pointless comment considering I literally put a disclaimer before delving into the discussion.
Rioter Comments
: I am not saying that. I am saying that you arent going to learn it bye playing against 1 plat player. or several even. Because without understanding the reasoning its meaningless information which if applied to an almost identical situation could be the wrong choice. Your best bet if you want to improve is to simply watch coaching on youtube. those people play way better then plats. (which are literally just bronze/silver players with slightly better mechanics and a lot less stupid shit) and they know a shit ton more also.
> [{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TNlhN03E,comment-id=0017000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-26T06:02:53.235+0000) > > Your best bet if you want to improve is to simply watch coaching on youtube. those people play way better then plats. (which are literally just bronze/silver players with slightly better mechanics and a lot less stupid shit) and they know a shit ton more also. I don't think there's a single "coach" on Youtube that fits that description. Most credible coaches, if not all, are D2+. And yes, you can easily learn from playing against 1 plat player so long as you actually watch how they play. At the very least, you'll learn basic macro play which is pretty much the biggest obstacle to climb and the reason plat players are plat in the first place. I am not saying that you'll learn how to play optimally in every situation from learning from a plat player. That's true even if you try to learn from challenger players. But if you try to understand how to play like a player that's THAT much better than you... High chance you, inevitably, get the same result as them.
: I don't want to be rude. But I play against bronze 1 to plat like 3-4. They all play the same. There is no "holy shit this player is doing something new and super smart" play players are literally bronze players that just make less mistakes.
It was never about playing "amazing". It's about knowledge. It would be ignorant to say that plat players don't have a significant amount of basic map understanding and muscle memory. That's where bronze players need to learn from.
nm1010 (NA)
: Perfect example of what I think is wrong with smurfing (from a smurf)
What you're describing isn't a problem with smurfing or the smurfs themselves. It's just them being shitty humans. I mean, the hate towards smurf was something I was only exposed to after playing a few games on a new account just for fun. I wasn't even, like, trying to level it or anything. Immediately I get marked as a smurf and received some rather abhorrent behavior from other players. But I don't... see the problem. Smurfing is a more apparent thing in NA, sure. However, what's the downside? You likely lose a game? Well, it's not really a lose when you're challenged by a much higher level opponent, right? Because you can learn SO much from it.There's information there that you would not find in the next hundred games. I'm serious. If you're climbing in silver and you play against a plat smurf; that plat player will do things and play in a way that you'll hardly ever see in silver. I don't wanna give arrogant smurfs any more ammunition but... It should be considered an honor to play against someone who you can learn so much from. On another note, despite the amount of smurfs these games are few and far between the higher you climb. Around gold 3+ I'd say it's pretty irrelevant. Mainly because the skill level between gold 3 to plat 3 is eerily non-existent. If I am to be blunt, I think condemning smurfs for smurfing is ignorant. Because, hey, you think it's some sort of instant loss. But you take nothing from it. You choose not to learn. You just whine about how you lost a game cuz' smurf. TL;DR: This wasn't because of smurfing. You just ran into a few assholes. Nothing bad comes from smurfing just people who wanna make excuses for their losses.
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ASSASSINATED

Level 203 (NA)
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