: Yeah but with this you're leaving out how i'm supposed to solo kill the enemy adc as thresh or karma without ap on mah items and a rabadons
Whelp, guess you're just gonna have to buy Luden's and Lich to get that AP for your Rabadon. --- Real talk though, 1-shot Thresh buys AD. You realize Flay scales obscenely with his AD, right?
Poske (EUNE)
: Or you know make them interact with minion waves Riot can legit change just the way botwave works
Sona used to interact with minions. Rito removed that for no reason in 4.13, despite countless players demanding they return it. Just one of the ~30 nerfs she received that patch.
SanKakU (NA)
: Mana is a support stat. And I don't think Lulu solo is any better than Lulu support. It looks like you want Riot to create dozens of new items that don't have AD/AP or have limited amounts of those on the items while the stat is called Supporting Power or something like that. Seems like a lot of work. Plus, then they had to do a mix of nerfing AP ratios and removing them and put in SP ratios.
Mana is by NO MEANS a support stat, it's a mana-user stat, hence about 90% or more of the champions in the game. I don't even know which left field you pulled that fallacy from, but I digress. In no way am I suggesting Rito creates brand new items, **ffs** this entire thread is discussing ALREADY EXISTING ITEMS THAT THIS SUGGESTION WOULD APPLY TO. Remove AP from Censor, Spellthief, Athene's ALL the support items and replace it with "SP" as you put it. There are sooo many benefits that would rise from this simple change. 1) Solo-lane AP champs can't abuse support items. Unless they have an "SP" scaling somewhere on their kit, they get very little benefit from buying support items and don't receive any AP to increase their damage. 2) "SP" items can be independently balanced around support champs without worrying about subsequently increase damage as AP does. 3) Support champs can be independently balanced around "SP" items without running the risk that comes with AP scaling and say, inadvertently buying shit like Luden's Echo or Lich Bane and subsequently having stronger shields and CC. 4) Support champs are deterred from being played solo-lane. "SP" items don't increase their damage output and AP items don't increase their utility. 5) Healthy solo-lane APC "supports." With their utility scaling "SP" and not AP, supports can be given usable AP scalings to function as off-meta APC characters without running the risk of "solo-lane Lulu" or "solo-lane Soraka" as they were, or the like. Mind you, supports are meant to have strong base numbers, so this would still need to remain little more than a novelty, as it was pre-3.14. All of this would take next to NO EFFORT on Rito's part, it never would have. Simply change every applicable stat on support spells/items from saying AP to saying "SP" and job well down. Hammer out the kinks after, for the most part 90% of the game will function exactly the same as it already does, but with the potential of better balancing and reduced risk of abuse cases.
Winterwings (EUNE)
: Here we go with the "Censor" again ... _Le Sigh_ Also, never mind the fact that Sona's W can apply Censer's effect on EVERYONE... MULTIPLE TIMES DURING FIGHTS... ... As long as you're smart about your positioning that is, and dont get insta-deleted.
As long as you don't get insta-deleted on THE SQUISHIEST CHARACTER IN LEAGUE, while trying to tag your allies with a MELEE-RANGE ABILITY on THE SQUISHIEST CHARACTER IN LEAGUE. Please use some common sense. There's a reason Sona has been the weakest support in LoL ever since patch 4.13. She's just... useless and her winrate WITHOUT Spellblade/Echo ch33z builds is under 30%, not surprisingly.
: [MEGATHREAD] Let's Discuss: Caitlyn
Been playing Cait since about season 4, not long after I started this game. Have level 8 on her, probably my 2nd or 3rd-most played ADC, maybe top 5 overall. P: The ability fits her theme, but the execution could be better. Rather than procing every X attacks, wouldn't it make more sense if it were to occur every X seconds instead (timer reduced with each basic attack)? Then the range increase from cupcakes makes me think, on a timer rather than every 7th shot, she should receive bonus range from her passive shot. Wouldn't have to be much mind you, 50 or even 25 units goes a long way, most auto-modifiers grant much larger range bonuses. As for the crit scaling... it's fine, I guess. Rito wants to encourage ADCs to buy crit and it works for Cait (it failed for half the marksmen that gained crit interactions.) I can't help, but wonder though if it isn't more a squishy-slaying ability than a tank-shredder. Its previous iteration had % armor pen, what if the crit scaling granted that, rather than just bonus damage. Q: This ability used to be Cait's iconic harass tool, but multiple nerfs have left it unimpressive. The fall-off is still too large, the initial-hitbox can cause frustration on, albeit the rare occasion and the trap interaction is little more than a complete novelty. Yet despite this, I feel the skill is being kept intentionally weak, directly because of that novelty. Rito severely overvalues Q's interaction with cupcakes. W: Speaking of, everyone has said this from the start and it indeed was Rito's intention, but a lot of Cait's power is hard-gated into cupcakes. Despite this, they've been made extremely difficult to use, any half-competent player will almost never be caught on one. The setup time is extremely long, which isn't a bad thing. Meanwhile the hitbox is very tiny, its diameter is half what it was pre-rework. Thusly, 5 current cupcakes factually covers less horizontal distance than 3 original cupcakes, the total area^3 covered is comparably less than half. The most disturbing part though imo, is that enemies aren't in ANY way deterred from stepping on them while Cait's out of range. Yes, this means you can punish bronzies that think they're outside the 1300 units, but that's not a valid excuse. It's a damned ~~bear~~ yordle trap, it hurts when it bites into your leg. Why the hell does it do no damage? E: This is probably the healthiest spell on her kit. Nerfs have cause some frustration, particularly the reduced hitbox, but the ability is mostly fine overall. R: Have to be careful here, don't want a 1-shot ability like some of the sheeple in this thread are suggesting, but it could use some situationally higher damage. At level 1, the range feels really small, not surprising since its only 200 units above cupcake range on her passive, but level 3 range feels massive. This ability is essentially supposed to be a super version of her passive, but it lacks crit scaling for more damage or armor pen. Mind you, this should only apply to the initial target and not affect players who block the shot.
: Problem is, if the champs are too powerful, they just get abused in other lanes and get nerfed again. It's not that helpful to buff the support champs so much that they are more powerful than other champs.
Except that has never TRULY happened. It occurred as a result of Rito's negligence and refusal to create a support stat. It happened as a direct cause of the 3.14 support class rework and Rito's misdecision of adding utility-ap scalings to the support class. As a matter-of-fact, every support in the game received nerfs that patch, with the lone exception of Lulu. Hence why Lulu has been the main offender of solo-lane supports, all other cases took longer to appear and haven't returned nearly as frequently as Lulu. Also, let's not forget the hypocrisy that Rito CLAIMS to not be opposed to solo-lane supports, but at the same time guts any that appear. Players NEED to be reminded as frequently as possible of Rito's mistakes and misdoings.
: Nah, takes away the purpose of a team game and makes it a solo experience. You win and lose as a team. Plus Singed mains wouldn't be able to climb at all.
So according to you, I should be punished, just because I had the misfortune of Rito's shit matchmaking placing me on the team that picks Sona? According to you, I deserve to lose when my ending score is 20-0-20, let's say, just because support picked Sona? According to you, I need to have my LP stolen by a Sona, after taking an inhib at 15 minutes and grabbing 1v5 quads? Whelp, like you said: TEAM GAME. My team intentionally troll-picks Sona, so we lose as a team. Clearly the entire game isn't being thrown by a single Sona, it was ALL of us losing together. The whole team troll-picked Sona and not one player, despite vocal pleas from 3 players NOT to pick Sona.
LankPants (OCE)
: Here's what I'd like to see for Sona, double down on her powerchord/music theme at the cost of her aura's. She already lost her aura's with her first rework anyway, I see no point in clinging to the joke she has now. My ideal Sona rework would be something like ______________________________ Passive: Powerchord Sona's first attack after casting 3 spells deals bonus magic damage and gains an additional effect based on the spells she cast, effects stack with eachother, for example 2Qs and 1W give you the effects for 1Q, 2Qs and 1W. Magic damage: Unchanged from live, maybe slightly reduced base. 1 Q: Deals 20% bonus damage 2 Qs: Deals damage and applies effect in a 250 radius AoE 3 Qs: Deals 30% increased damage on all effects on the AA (multiplicative with 1Q) 1 W: Enemy deals 20% reduced damage for 3 seconds 2 Ws: Enemy deals an additional 25% reduced damage (45% total) for 3 seconds 3 Ws: Enemy is debuffed causing their first instance of damage to miss 1 E: Slows enemy for 30% for 2 seconds 2 Es: Slows enemy for an additional 20% (50% total) and grounds them for 2 seconds 3 Es: Roots the enemy for 1 second before decaying to the E2 effect Q:Hymn of Valour Sona fires a bolt of energy in a line dealing damage to the first unit it hits and other units within a small AoE. Damage: 70/120/170/220/270+(70% AP) Range: 800 AoE 250 units CD: 8/7.5/7/6.5/6 seconds Mana Cost: 40/45/50/55/60 mana W: Aria of Perseverance Sona shields herself and a target allied unit tethering herself to them for a short duration. If either shield remains unbroken she additionally heals both herself and her ally. The shield will immediately break if Sona and her ally leave the tether range. Shield value: 50/80/110/140/170+(35% AP) Heal value: 60/100/140/180/220+(45% AP) Tether range: 650 Spell range: 600 Shield duration: 2.5 seconds CD: 8/7.5/7/6.5/6 seconds Mana Cost: 60/65/70/75/80 E: Sona grants herself and any nearby allies bonus MS and knocks any enemies directly ontop of her a short distance back, if she knocks back at least on enemy champion she gains 50% increased movement speed personally MS granted: 6/7/8/9/10%+(5% per 100 AP) Radius: 500 Duration: 3 seconds Knockback range: 150 units, all units knocked to edge of 150 unit range regardless of start point CD: 8/7.5/7/6.5/6 seconds Mana Cost 40/45/50/55/60 R: Passive: removed, active: same as live. ________________________ Basically this would add some element of skill and decision making to Sona while keeping her kit fairly simple to learn. The effects have different use cases but scale up quite simply and logically.
Sona's Ultimate is one of the weakest amongst supports, it can't be left as-is. At the very least, it needs its hitbox reverted to pre-patch 4.13. Ideally, they should make improvements; change it from a straight-line projectile into a cone for example. Sound doesn't travel in a fucking straight line.
Swarovsko (EUW)
: > She's quite unique as she is the Aura champion lol no, {{champion:37}} is the generalist of enchanters. There's almost nothing unique about her. >{{champion:16}} extremely boring to play as That's extremely subjective, I like playing Soraka and I'm 100% sure there are many people who like her too, and yes, there is a difference between a Soraka one trick and a first time Soraka. Just look at challengers starting with q and leveling it up for 3 ranks instead of maxing w and the reason why they do this is because they want to poke, making her not that "uninteractive/passive". {{champion:43}} needs to get out of bot lane and become the battle mage she was supposed to be, she has a lot of potential with her theme and she would be 100% wasted bot lane supporting adcs. {{champion:40}} no skill expression? Now I know even a brainless hamster can win games with her but she does have skill expression. Her Q can cancel dashes like Vi's Q if used in the right moment, and this requires good reflexes. She can engage by using her flash + ult combo and give a free kill to her adc, she has to maintain a good positioning in tf if she wants her teammates to benefit from her passive and has to decide wheter or not to shield the tank trying to make him tank more or shield her adc so the adc can make use of the bonus AD and do more damage. She doesn't need to do all these things to be effective, but don't say she has no skill expression. I guess you don't really understand these champions (and what an actual unpopular opinion is).
> [{quoted}](name=Swarovsko,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u89FQ2s5,comment-id=001e,timestamp=2017-08-04T17:27:40.812+0000) > > lol no, {{champion:37}} is the generalist of enchanters. There's almost nothing unique about her. Also, she doesn't use auras anymore. Her abilities are lingering actives, they fail to meet 3 of the 4 mandatory qualities to be defined as an "aura." Sona's REAL auras were removed in patch 4.13.
: I 100% agree with the Sona rework. I love my sona, but outside of her Ult she doesn't really do anything. She has some poke, but so do other champions. Her heals are kinda bad, but the shield off-sets some of that. Her E is more used to running back to lane, then to actually chase. Her Q is great, but some times the target is weird. I could be standing next to 2 enemy champions, but they would target minions instead. Her passive is worthless, how many of us Actually use the empowered W,E on purpose? When the Empowered Q does so much damage. Her ult idk how you could work that maybe work that into her passive of Q + R = higher group damage aura, W + R = Either bigger full heal to everyone within range or increase health regen, E+R= movement speed increase. Her entire theme is giving aura's to people, but her Ultimate doesn't make sense in that theme.
A decent analysis if I do say so myself. I'ma help you understand a little: the targeting priority on Hymn of Valor only prioritizes enemy champions if they are within 550 units. They made this change to it back in season 3 I believe, to match her basic attack range. Before then, its champion prioritization was even lower, like 500 units if I recall correctly. It's also worth nothing that because of this, Sona practically has the shortest range of any support in League.
FilDaFunk (EUW)
: No one wants the class update. What they try to do is make every champ unique - suddenly only Soraka has a heal? Also don't understand why my 3 favourites (Sona, Karma, Lulu) you called mediocre.
He apparently undervalues the usefulness of Karma and Lulu. Karma's kit is overloaded thanks to constant buffs over the course of numerous patches. Lulu is always strong, largely thanks to her point-click polymorph; we saw this after the assassin update. On the other hand, he overvalued Sona. As the weakest support in the game, she has no redeeming qualities. No dmg, no healing, no cc, no mobility, no durability. She offers nothing to a team other than a feeding liability and a guaranteed lost bot lane. She's been this way for over 3 years now & Rito STILL refuses to revert her.
LankPants (OCE)
: >It's ok if a champions is a "noob" champion that's really easy to play and doesn't require much (or any) mechanical skill, just and is almost entirely dependent on good decision making. It's OK if a champ has lowered mechanical skill and increased decision making over other champs, what isn't OK is when they have both no mechanical skill and no decision making in their kit. Sona's a perfect example of this. Her abilities outside of R take no mechanical skill to use and have minimal decision making due to the virtually non-existent opportunity cost on her basic abilities. I don't think Raka's nearly as bad as Sona in this regard, she actually has opportunity cost on her abilities. When you heal one guy you lose the potential to heal other guys, a choice Sona never has to make. Also her E and Q are certainly less braindead to use than any of Sona's basic abilities. There's such a thing as a champ being too beginner focused, Sona certainly is.
...and rather than fixing this problem, Rito is of the idea that she should be punished for it. Lowest dmg, no CC, lowest healing, immobile, less durable than tissue paper. You know as well as I there have been countless player suggestions to raise her skillcap over these past 3 years; some of them are even usable. Rito is intentionally keeping her in a failed state.
: That would be a nice pocket pick for sona, why do you think she wins so hard? Wouldn't sona's range and poke hurt Leona?
Leona has always been a hard Sona counter, even when Sona used to be a playable character pre-patch 4.13. As a matter-of-fact, Sona is the shortest-range, least damage-threatening "support" in the game atm. Her Q at 700 range puts her in danger of most champions, especially Leona's E at 875 range. Actually, Sona's Q only prioritizes champions over minions when she's within 550 range of them, so at that distance she's vulnerable to counter-harass or engage by literally every ADC and support in the game. As for Sona's "poke," she factually has the worst damage numbers of any support in the game. She only has ONE damage spell(a rarity of supports) and at 40 damage, it has a lower base than any other support in the game. Her base AD is one of the worst and her full "burst" combo is truthfully outraded by 2 basic attacks from any ADC, except maybe MF. Leona is a tank, but Sona's damage is ignorable even for a squishy; if you have **ANY **mr runes, Sona is an afterthought at every point during a game.
: Quick rundown of why support is unpopular
I do believe I heard Rito is going to scrap the "damage healed" stat and band-aid fix it with "death's defied" just like Phantom Dancer. As a placeholder until they figure out how to properly calculate actual numbers in a way which won't be misled by things like lifesteal.
Swerzz (NA)
: > There's a huge plethora of carry-related feedback and data in the game. There's nothing showing how much I healed, how much I shielded, if I saved anyone from otherwise deadly attacks, or whatever a support would be interested in. With this said, can we separate life steal from "damage healed"? So you need Graphs and Numbers to show and justify your play? If you save someones life or set up an amazing play. You know you did it, Your ADC knows about it. Just because there's no number attached to it at the end of the game doesn't take them away. And it actually does show amount healed. I like Nami, so this the one stat i'll check out And if you want gameplay from playing a support. Try being in a team fight with 5 activatable items, 4 moves and your Summs up. Also trying to keep track of everyone and figuring out when to use everything properly. And 'all at once' is not the right answer.
I believe it was Ghostcrawler who recently admitted the "HP Healed" stat is completely broken. The way the game calculates it currently, "Farming junglers will end a match with more 'HP Healed' than a Soraka on the same team." Rito plans on completely overhauling how end-of-game stats are calculated, because at present, they give very misleading and unspecific data.
: i actually thought the tank update would encourage a tank meta again
I mean, just a week ago, Meddler stated that every class rework thus far have all been overall failures. Why should Rito break the cycle now? This is when more than ever, they should intentionally continue the pattern. You know, cause fuck logic.
: {{champion:107}} Mains feel your frustration. Riot took away everything that was fun about the champion, and for what purpose? Creating an unbalancable mess of a champion that cant tell if he's an assassin or tank that needs to be gutted every single patch.
The only thing that has ever been "fun" about Rengar is the fact he's anti-fun for the enemy team. Assassins are by nature, counter-intuitive to proper game design. I once saw a Rengar 110% - 0 a Malphite with FOUR completed armor items, in under 1 second. That is NOT healthy game design.
: Skarner was an experiment in asking for structures to control- something quite a few people have wanted as a concept. As was a mechanic where champions getting kills made them easier to shut-down (Garen) and a minion-controller (Malzahar). It's not wrong to try and change things. It is wrong to immediately throw the changes away and go back to the old if they're not well received. Work forwards- not back. Skarner and Garen in particular will gain nothing from going backwards.
However, how do we know which direction is ACTUALLY forwards? If you blatantly dumpster a champion, then change them in a way that just guts them again and trails even farther from healthy, doesn't this mean you've been working backwards the whole time? Isn't a failed design that creates more balance problems than it fixes inherently a backwards concept? I feel like the refusal to admit failure and the refusal to revert said failures, are mere excuses to pump up their own arrogance.
: I still hate Fearless, since that rework on 4.13. lol.
My close friend hates him for the not just one, but TWO ENTIRE TIMES he ruined the entire jungle as a role. I don't understand how Fearless still has a job, especially after it took Rito all of season 5 making fixes to the mess he did to jungle the FIRST time. Then he was allowed to do it again. Did I mention Fearless is a jungle main and had never played a single game of Sona in his life, when he volunteered to rework her? I mean, it says right on his Twitter that he tends to sit around Bronze 1 - Silver 5, but still... **JUNGLE MAIN.**
Tranoze (NA)
: She has low damage potential but her kid work too well with {{item:3057}} which give her lots of damage if you can use her right.
This is just untrue. Firstly, Spellblade work well with every character in the game, because it's an ability that works with anyone that has abilities and can right-click on enemies. Every character in the game has abilities and can right-click on enemies, Sona isn't special. Secondly, Spellblade scales with your base AD stat. Sona has the 10th-lowest AD in the entire game and 3rd-lowest amongst supports, thusly meaning it's inherently less effective on Sona than it would be on all, but those few 9 below her. Which still doesn't matter, because the ability itself is toxic and even characters with less AD than Sona will still build the item, as can be seen from Orianna's abuse of Runeglaive. Thirdly, Sona mathematically UNDER-PERFORMS with Spellblade. Keeping in true with the inherently toxic nature of artificial scaling, looking at Lich Bane for the purpose of a specific example: has a global ~65% winrate across all of the champions that build it. On the other hand, Sona only has a ~58% winrate with Lich Bane, so why? Does this mean Spellblade isn't good on Sona? No, Spellblade is good on literally everyone. It's Sona herself that is not good and thusly as an unviable character, she stills underperforms comparably, even while abusing artificial scalings. The same can be similarly stated for Sheen and Echo as well in regards to Sona. Fourthly, pre-4.13 Sona had shorter cooldowns, higher base AD and was generally much more synergistic with Spellblade, but she didn't start consistently buying it until AFTER being gutted. This is because pre-4.13 Sona had a usable kit that didn't need to lean on crutches and cheeze to not be a liability to her team. The fallacy that Spellblade "works well" with Sona is nothing short of sheeple propaganda and an excuse for Rito to keep Sona unplayable.
: Sona can oneshot people by clicking them. This is ok.
Too bad that's just a mathematical lie, considering she factually has the lowest damage potential out of all supports.
: Nerf Sona, Leave Xerath alone?
"Sona's Q damage was a bit too high." Are you referring to the nerf all the way back in patch 3.14? Sona hasn't had decent damage output for almost 3 years now. If you're referring to any point in this game after season 3, every Sona nerf has been based purely on Rito prejudice against the champ and Meddler's personal desire to remove her from the game. As things stand, she's officially considered a troll pick: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/9Pv7v6hv-im-repeatedly-griefed-for-picking-sona
: List champs you think needs nerfs but rito refuses to touch
{{champion:63}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:121}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:107}} {{champion:35}} {{champion:91}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:11}} {{champion:7}} As a general rule, assassins are always deserving of nerfs, solely for the fact their base concept is anti-fun and counter intuitive to proper game design. If at any point, an assassin is a strong meta pick, it's a clear indicator that a distinct imbalance has occurred.
: ***
As a matter of fact, Patch Notes are actually well-known for faulty, missing(often intentional) and misleading info. Fearless has publicly admitted to intentionally hiding VERY IMPORTANT information from patch notes. He literally hid an entire champion's rework numbers from the patch notes AND the champion update page(Sona.) That was around 40 changes in a single patch that were completely undocumented, except on the PBE forums. I could list close to a dozen shadow nerfs off-hand that Ritoers eventually confirmed. There are constantly other general mistakes made to patch notes, including listing changes that aren't Live yet, incorrectly listing info and basic typos, misspellings, such and nth other mistakes. The fact that Rito is constantly making mistakes, intentionally hiding changes and listing corrections without context makes the patch notes highly unreliable and 3rd-party sites even less reliable since they're updated by random people that may or may not know the correct information, especially considering their being bombarded by false info and often having to dive through thousands of threads on nth forums like here, Reddit and so on to find Rito declarations, that may or may not exist. Even Rito's own game guide on this site is untrustworthy, it's "updated" by employees that once again may or may not have the correct info as they aren't actually directly involved in balance changes or the game's coding. That's assuming champion pages are updated at all, Sona's champion page for instance was both incorrect and incomplete all for nearly 2 full years, all the way from patch 4.13 up until 6.14.
: No, it would be like asking for Ashe's ult to stun for 1 -- 3.5 seconds based on far it has traveled instead of 2.5 seconds point-blank.
> [{quoted}](name=Illâoi,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EvJ0zEqv,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-04-03T15:04:11.932+0000) > > No, it would be like asking for Ashe's ult to stun for 1 -- 3.5 seconds based on far it has traveled instead of 2.5 seconds point-blank. "Enchanted Crystal Arrow The main target is stunned, while nearby enemies are slowed, both for 1-3.5 seconds, based on the distance the arrow traveled." http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Ashe/Abilities Except that's literally how Ashe's ult already works. I don't understand what you're trying to say or if you just misspoke. In which case, I still don't understand what you're trying to say, the analogy just seems out of place.
: I want independent rolls idc about removing x champ rolls from pool as you've rolled them before since that would not be true aram but I still think that the odds of the rolls I am getting are not true R and when a roll I get which is 99.963 not going to happen it's going to take a lot of arams for it to happen (and that's for 2 consecutive identical champs) ie: 1500 aram games is still 57% chance of not happening, 500 where I am at is 83%.
Problem is, true randomness can't happen as the game is right now. First, your roll comes from your own champion pool, you can't roll champions you don't own. This blatantly contradicts randomness altogether and ARAM will NEVER be random unless this changes. Second, players can't roll duplicates; if an ally or enemy rolls a champion, you can't roll that champion. There used to be a glitch where the enemy could roll them, but I digress. Now, although this means real randomness isn't possible, I also don't see it changing either.
: > [{quoted}](name=AWildAPKalista,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oxxGtAY8,comment-id=002d00000000,timestamp=2017-04-03T14:11:51.936+0000) > > I am completely fine with that. I like you XD (Still, don't ban your support's intention; it's rude, often unnecessary - if you ask nicely enough, I'm going to pick whatever you prefer - , and makes them unwilling to actually support you)
I try, I have tried. I ask politely they play literally anyone else. Mage, tank, off-support, not a single time has it worked after probably about 30 tries. Every last one has refused to communicate or just said "No." The people I get are so close-minded into playing Sona, they will intentionally counter-pick themselves into Blitz, Leona, Zyra, hard Sona counters and end up 0 - 12 by twenty minutes. Players in this game are unwilling to listen to compromise or teammates' advice, even at the cost of losing the match. At least if I ban their troll pick, there's a chance they might play the game properly, like the support Lucian did. Worst case, they continue to troll like they already would have if I'd done nothing, regardless. As far I see it, there is no downside.
: Just a suggestion: don't do this. If your support is at least half the ass that I am, then he's going to respond by locking in Shaco or something like that.
You don't understand, I am completely fine with that. Sona is literally the weakest character in League, I will gladly take any of the other 150 champions as support before I want a Sona. You know what happened last time I banned her? The support picked Lucian AND I WAS HAPPY THAT I DIDN'T HAVE A SONA. MY DUO PARTNER WAS HAPPY WE DIDN'T HAVE A SONA. He did excellent on Lucian, bot lane was won quite handily, there was plenty of vision thanks to Sightstone and we won the match, CAUSE WE DIDN'T HAVE A SONA. Sona is a troll pick, that's all there is to it. Has been every single day since patch 4.13 went Live: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/9Pv7v6hv-im-repeatedly-griefed-for-picking-sona https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/RnN9Vpaw-riot-for-how-long-are-you-going-to-keep-ignoring-sona https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/3IFO2c6J-meddler-not-expecting-answers-after-3-years-but https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/rc792Nbi-an-exhaustive-list-of-sonas-problems-and-how-riot-can-potentially-fixe-them
: Aram is not really R
The most important issue that Rito is blatantly ignoring is ARAM accounts. Their sole purpose is to manipulate the system to create inherently unfair advantages for themselves. This is anti-fun and IT IS CHEATING, but Rito allows it to happen. Then aside is the issue you've presented: rolling the same champion multiple times in a row or within close games of each other. A few problems with this occur: depending on the order which the game rolls champions, each player that was rolled before you and obtained a champion you own increases your odds of getting any other champion by 1 / (nth - 1). If you have a shallow pool, say 52 champs and you roll last, your odds of getting any one champion is now 1 / (52 - 9), which inherently removes a significant portion of the randomness. Now, Rito can fix this if they wanted to, but doing so will involve lowering the amount of randomness involved. First option: implement a priority system involving champions in your pool. Each time you roll a champion, the odds of rolling that champion from thenout is greatly reduced, while simultaneously the odds of every other champion is slightly increased. This doesn't eliminate the chance completely, but makes it less likely each time. Second option: every time you roll a champion, the odds of rolling that champion again becomes ZERO until you've rolled everyone.
koshkyra (NA)
: Can we NOT do this to supports like myself, please?
Janna and Soraka aside, every time I hear a teammate say they're going to ~~intentionally troll~~ pick Sona. I immediately ban her without a 2nd thought. So you don't want to play a tank support, fine by me. At least don't threaten me with ~~intentionally feeding~~ picking Sona, in a post-patch 4.13 world.
Octavia (EUW)
: > Rito once AGAIN tried making her viable bot lane That's actually an entirely false premise right from the off. Rework Quinn at NO POINT was designed for bot lane, in fact Riot specifically stated that rework Quinn was aimed at mid, and I maintain to this day that that is her best lane. >, refused to give her a kit that would work in bot lane Never intended to be bot lane. > if Rito had just admitted their failure and reverted Quinn The last thing Quinn needs is a revert to her original form. Now she has a few problems with waveclear, before she was a confusing mess that I enjoyed playing only for the same reasons as I enjoy Quinn now. Except current Quinn does that 10x better. >The patch 5.22 Quinn rework was a failure, short and simple. No, it was actually as far as I am concern Riot's best rework by a million miles and gave her ult a true unique usage instead of turning her into master yi with a blind, execute and ability to lock on to and knock up a target. You can say its a failure etc but at least have reasons based in reality, because saying they intended her to go bot is just false.
Quinn lost her identity, lost her partner, lost damage potential, lost her most popular playstyle and item route. Rito publicly stated they intentionally gutted her numbers so she'd have to rely on outnumbering opponents, to be at all useful. Considering all of this, how can ANYONE not understand the fact that the whole rework was a failure by inherent design AND execution? Rito intentionally pigeonholed her into a singular linear and predictable play pattern, completely contradicting their own self-proclaimed design philosophies. There are a lot of REAL Quinn players that understand all of this. YOU are not a real Quinn player.
Pika310 (NA)
: Proposed Sona Rework mk 2
Well, aside from the fact this kit is clearly too strong and would need significant nerfs... I can now say I certainly wouldn't mind if there were a way to make my minions wear Sona wigs. Like the Project minions.
zero356 (NA)
I'm not certain if this was meant to be an attack or not. Basically, you only stated factual observations. Not even regarding Sona, but regarding Sona discussions rather. I will point this out though: the reason the topic gets so much discussion is because Rito is openly ignoring the issue. They never discuss Sona. They don't want to discuss Sona, as several of them have publicly stated. Fearless said he's afraid of negative feedback. Meddler said "winrates," literally his excuse for everything. Jag pretended to listen, then just dismissed us and went through the effort of creating a whole news article specifically saying **Sona players** are delusional. So long as Rito continues to brush the Sona problem under the rug, we'll keep discussing her. So long as we keep discussing her, there'll be debating; that's just how discussion works. The people that want drastic change, do so because they believe Rito are the ones who don't want current/past Sona to exist. The people who want QoL change to keep her similar believe Rito don't want Sona to exist in any form, even a full Sion-level change. The people that deny Rito's obvious hatred for Sona(despite countless public admittances of this) are close-minded or intentionally trolling. I can tell you one thing, there are a lot of us that are open to a lot of suggestions, **depending on the individual quality of the suggestion.**
: Can something be done about Support Zyra doing the most damage on her team every game?
Interestingly enough, the stats prove that Zyra actually does NOT perform any better with or without Liandry's. The item isn't good or bad on her, just neutral. I honestly don't build it without someone on the enemy team stacking HP. Luden's Echo performs a lot better, but that's true for literally everyone that builds Echo. Anyway, Zyra may be played as and "balanced"(this game doesn't have balance...) around supporting, but she's still supposed to be a mage, of course her damage is high. Since she also lacks a heal or shield, most supports items work very poorly on her since most of them revolve around Windspeaker effects and most of their gold efficiency is dumped into these passives. So she ends up buying AP items, like Liandry's. Of COURSE a MAGE that is buying DAMAGE ITEMS is going to be doing damage. You complain about Zyra doing damage and hard CC at the same time. Well, I guess that could be considered a problem if it weren't such a common occurence: {{champion:1}} {{champion:34}} {{champion:432}} {{champion:63}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:245}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:267}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:80}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:89}} {{champion:112}} {{champion:45}}
Rydakora (NA)
: Not necessary buffed, however a change would be welcome. Mostly people, who write at forums, ask for a change for the better. We, the players, are masters at recognizing strong aspects of a champion. Sometimes this aspect is intentional and sometimes it is over performing. The players are passionate about their favorite champions and wishes to see their champion / game in a healthier state. Thus, it is only natural they talk about the problems and ask for a change. It comes out as a vocal outcry because the issues have been talked for a long time. Also since in the end the game designers have the final say. In Sona’s case her most powerful aspect is damage and because of it everything else in her kit feels weak. This leads to the bad play experience and creates frustration to some players. I’m fully aware that there are players who enjoys Sona being a secondary AP carry and are happy to play her as one. At the same time, there are players who wants Sona to have deeper gameplay than damage.
The thing is though, that her damage isn't even truly "powerful." Sona has the lowest damage potential, both in bases and scalings, of any support character in League. It "feels" strong because of the fact she has to build artificial numbers in the form of Spellblade and Echo to literally do anything. Her kit feels weak because it is weak. Very weak. There's a reason she loses her team a lot of games before the 20-minute mark. She's a liability without artificial scalings and competent teams will hyper-snowball off of farming her at every possible chance.
: Thing is Sona is already strong and popular in almost all elos, and this is why riot doesn't want to work on her they have a support picked in a lot of games, and wins 53% or 52% of them, they conclude that everyone loves to play this champ and have no problems with it, but i talked to so many sona mains and they all feel bad about playing this current version of Sona i don't think you can straight buff Sona without breaking her again Part of the reason Sona feels bad to play is because she's balanced around buffing 5 allies, it's not even visible as for instance her Q deals nearly 400+100% AP if she buffs 5 allies, but it's not even certain that the allies will hit with the bonus damage and the damage will be split as they may not hit the same target, all of this ends up with a massive invisible power but remains a strong power as it makes Sona's team wins teamfights i would just prefer if they removes her currents "Auras" for unique abilities that have counterplay, in order to make her viable in high elo as well as everywhere but like i said i doubt it will happen considering sona's current stats
You've changed... Why have you suddenly bought into the winrate propaganda and joined the hive mind? You know better than anyone the factors that are artificially inflating her winrate. I'm looking at her pickrate right this second and it's well-below 3%. What happened to the fact that players are literally flaming and reporting Sona as a troll pick? She's picked so infrequently in Diamond+ that her winrate in any given week is completely random due to the so few games to take data from. She's literally a liability to her team, many of her games are lost before the 20-minute mark do to the fact her presence is nonexistent at best and a hindrance otherwise. Any game that Sona is picked is literally either a 4v5 or 4v6 because of her.
Fowus (NA)
: and? just because they can block cc for a duration doesnt mean its not their weakness
I'm sorry, but wtf? Do you even bother listening to what you're saying? I literally can't even right now, with that oxymoron. "Just because you bought armor doesn't mean physcial damage isn't your weakness." "Just because you built attack damage doesn't mean your basic attacks are stronger." "Just because you have spellvamp doesn't mean you heal off of your abilities." "Just because you're stunned, doesn't mean you can't move." "Just because you're Jax, doesn't mean you're Jax." No, that's EXACTLY what it means. Now excuse me while I bash my head against a wall and hope the memory of this disappears.
Fowus (NA)
: cc is everyones weakness also ahri has good waveclear what are you talking about
CC is not "evereyone's" weakness. {{champion:39}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:2}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:19}} {{champion:15}} {{champion:56}} All of these have a way of mitigating, ignoring or outright blocking CC. I could continue this list with champs that go untargetable and such, if you want.
: What person chooses a Champion without even looking at their kit would be my question. They have those videos in the Champion Store for a reason (or at least on the Legacy Client). People who go into a game blind are going to have a problem with any champion, be it Ashe or Jinx. But like said, it's rather easy to simplify the passive into something new players understand as well. I'll explain each part of his passive in a single simple sentence. * Building Crit Chance and Attack Speed will give Jhin more AD. * Jhin's attack speed does not increase when buying Attack Speed. * Auto's that Crit boost Jhin's Movement speed and buying more Attack Speed strengthens the boost. * Jhin can only fire 4 times before reloading, but his 4th shot is a {{champion:86}}-teed Critical Strike and does %missing Health damage. * Crits do 25% less damage. The only difference between this and his actual Passive Text, is that there is a lot of details and numbers thrown in as well, that clutter and confuse a rather simple definition. Doing A will do B. C does not happen. When D happens gain X. These are all simple in nature, and anyone with reading comprehension will do fine in recognizing what the basics mean, and gain a thorough comprehension of it by becoming experienced.
> [{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc792Nbi,comment-id=001000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-28T05:03:04.398+0000) > > What person chooses a Champion without even looking at their kit would be my question. My question would be, better yet, what person chooses Sona AFTER already looking at her kit? You can see that at 40 base, her Q is the weakest support damage in the game. Even if you utilize the on-hit on EVERY SINGLE CAST, the full 60 is actually still comparably low. This also demands that you be within 550 range on EVERY SINGLE CAST, which when you can also see she has the lowest effective HP in the game, with the lowest MS tier, is an inherently failed design. You can see that her heal is the weakest base in the game, likewise for her shield & even the combined value of both is only barely ON-PAR with the average heal/shield. Except for, the shield only has a 1.5 second duration, less than 1/3 that of any other support save Thresh', whose is still 4 seconds. All of this for a mana cost more exorbitant than any other heal/shield, despite the fact you can also see she has the 2nd-lowest base mana of enchanters. Another failed design. You can see her E is a 1-point spell that offers next to no real benefit. It's not a dash/blink, it's not instantaneous gap-closing. It doesn't even give a decent amount of MS. One more failed design. You can see her passive is dependent of her most-recent spell, but her spells have DIFFERENT FUCKING COOLDOWNS. This is so fucking counter-intuitive to proper design. What of the lingering actives? 400 damned range. You can barely even call them "ranged" spells, they literally tie Graves and Mini-Gnar for lowest "ranged." There are actually MELEE abilities in League that have 375 range. As a matter-of-fact, no other support in the entire game has ranged spells that are less than 500-units. These right here are probably the largest failures in design of them all. Her ult? Its width was reduces by ~half and its range nerfed 100 units. Oh, but what do we have here? SHE HAS BASIC ABILITY STRENGTH TRAPPED IN HER ULTIMATE RANKS. Wtaf Rito? Trapping basic ability power in ult ranks isn't just a basic failure in design for Sona, it's just pure failure for any support, no matter who it'd been.
zero356 (NA)
: Generally agree, not worth rehashing your "discussion below" Put I wouldn't put so much (or so little, take your pick) faith in CertainlyT
Honestly, I would have to say CertainlyT hasn't been nearly as disrespectful as Fearless, Jag, Meddler, Rerpertoir, I can keep naming Ritoers that I personally have seen far more disrespect from towards the customers. The four I named there have all REPEATEDLY lied to, verbally berated and severely condescended countless players. This reflects very poorly on not just the "balance" dept. that they're from, but Rito as a company overall for ALLOWING such misconduct to occur.
: Her auras (before her rework) were never invisible; if people clicked on the enemy they could see which buff she was giving them, and the values were flat back then. Only her immediate usage of abilities benefited from any ratios, which were still low.
This is all true to a T. Let's also not forget how Fearless repeatedly stated that his main focus for "improving visibility" was just making her spells flashier and more OPTICALLY visible. He openly stated that the actual rework was a literal afterthought and he didn't care whether they were refined by the time those visuals were complete. He threw them onto Live regardless of what they were like. He even intentionally hid the changes and numbers from both the patch notes AND the champ update page. Even Sona's champion page on the official Rito site was intentionally left a complete mess for years after. Not for lack of players demanding they fix it. They added the Jhin death animation and video to her page before they actually fixed the fucking numbers on the page itself. They created a damned video, but they couldn't be bothered to update simple fucking text: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bug-report/ctbNtZaf-champion-page-discrepencies-v2 https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bug-report/8EWkbuJE-so-rito-took-the-effort-of-updating-sonas-champion-page-for-jin If Fearless had left Sona alone LIKE HE SHOULD HAVE and updated just her visuals, we wouldn't be here discussing how the entire project was a massive failure. Fuck man, it wasn't even Feareless' biggest failure, that would be the jungle rework which he specifically abandoned Sona to work on. I don't even understand how Fearless still has a job, he's literally had at least 5 really big failures in a row that I can name off-hand. He should've been fired after patch 4.13 and the Sona dumpstering reverted, but Rito is too afraid to admit failure. They're too afraid to admit it was a mistake to hire Fearless and a mistake not to fire him A LOT SOONER.
Thilmer (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc792Nbi,comment-id=00190000,timestamp=2017-03-27T12:34:16.723+0000) > > Yes, her damage and heals really are that invisible. She literally has the lowest base damage of supports in the game, her lone spell is the only 40-base damage amongst all support kits. Her healing is literally the weakest in the game. Every other heal is stronger than hers, **even Nidalee**'s. > > This gets on my nerves so much. Why a champion that is not even a support has such a good healing?
Because once upon a time, Nidalee was a rather common support champ. Spam spears, lay a few traps, heal the ADC. Heck, her heal even has an AS steroid added to it, that's not all that different the way Lulu and Janna's shields increase damage too. In fact, almost ALL heals and shields have secondary effects to them, Aria is one of the only 2 or 3 in the entire game that arguably don't. At the time, Nidalee was far more support-esque in that she actually empowered the ADC, in comparison to the Brands and Malzahars we have now that are little more than damage bots. One day, Rito decided they didn't want her to be just a spear-spammer and moved a ton of her damage off her spears and into her form change. Since then, she's had so many iterations and gone back and forth between so many different roles, I can't keep track of them all. I don't even know where she's supposed to be played atm.
Thilmer (EUW)
: There is little diference between a good Sona and an excellent Sona, because her kit doesn't really allow a player to show skill. You only notice an excellent Sona for her positioning and timing. Her base numbers are garbage, her ratios are a joke, she is the only enchanter support without a proper CC, and her rework was disapointing. When she is weak, she is almost unplayable. When she is strong, everybody plays her and she gets a 58% winrate. Sona is anything except well balanced. And it's a pity, because she has awesome artistic design and awesome skins. P.S. I forgot to mention that Riot made her auras disappear because "we don't like auras". Is that supposed to be an argument?
> [{quoted}](name=Thilmer,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc792Nbi,comment-id=001e,timestamp=2017-03-27T09:15:32.752+0000) > > P.S. I forgot to mention that Riot made her auras disappear because "we don't like auras". Is that supposed to be an argument? In the minds of Rito, that is indeed exactly what their idea of an argument is. Meddler once came onto a Sona thread, told us, "Our secret numbers that you don't have access to and we won't give you, say that Sona is actually strong, in spite of claims from multiple challenger-level players saying otherwise." Rito doesn't listen to their customers, they don't see the game from our perspective, they change this game solely on their own personal biases.
: Uh, you're leaving out a major factor: Sona is one of the easiest characters in the game comparative to Ivern, who has some actual skill required about him. Sona boasting a 50-something win-rate means that her numbers are overtuned and she's tearing shit up. And no, don't try to tell me Sona is some hardcore decision making support? Can you slap QWE and land your R? You're a pro level Sona. Ivern, comparatively, has skill shots to land, has potentially powerful skills and overall is more decision oriented. Ivern being strong vs. Sona being strong is more akin to Gangplank being strong vs. Garen being strong.
Which numbers are overtuned? Literally every single number on her kit is within the bottom 3 amongst the entire support class: * Tied for weakest basic attack with Soraka * Lowest damage bases & scalings * 2nd-lowest mana amongst enchanters * Weakest AND most mana-intensive heal/shield(combined) amongst all heals AND shields * Shortest duration on a shield * Lowest effective HP * 1st, 2nd AND 3rd-shortest spell ranges amongst the entire support class * Lowest tier of base MS * One of the weakest ults, with one of the longest CDs, smallest hitboxes and shortest ranges * Shitty 1-point MS spell that's outclassed by Nami's PASSIVE * No pre-6 hard CC Sona is numerically the weakest support in the game, without question. Arguably the weakest character in all of League, partially because support is the only role that she can "play." Her winrate is artificially inflated by bronzies that don't understand her full combo is outtraded by a simple basic attack and the fact the items she builds are OP and have absurd winrates. Of which Sona herself even while abusing those items, is still herself below their own personal winrates and she's actually dragging the numbers down. Spellblade and Echo are the reason Sona's global winrate isn't below 40%, but in turn Sona herself is dragging those items' winrates down as well. This creates a situation where sheeple don't understand Sona is unplayable, but at the same time don't understand her items are OP. Build Echo and Spellblade on literally anyone other than Sona: Annie, Nami, hell even Taric and you receive a character that'd end up closer to 70% winrate, if they were in the same circumstances as Sona.
: ivern is a support champ aswell so thats not the reason actually support is the class that gets ignored and tolerated the most when strong or op. mostly because a high percentage of their power isnt that obvious compared to other classes and isnt expressed in damage. sona actually is the exception here and has a lot of damage for a support champ, thats why she got a lot of hate back then. other support champs that were opressive like janna, alistar, soraka or currently ivern never got that much hate. they all got nerfed heavily (except ivern) and that was well deserved, but imagine something thats mostly damage like riven, syndra or support zyra at 58% winrate and think about what would happen to the boards, ban rates and pbe changes in that case.
Sona factually has the lowest damage bases and scalings amongst the support class. She lacks real utility in her kit. She's FORCED to buy artificial numbers because of the fact she's a failure as a result of 4.13 + 6.14. I literally just got finished explaining this to another sheeple: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/aofAyM3w-patch-614-sona-hits-58-wr-gets-hotfix-nerfs-receives-more-nerfs-on-the-two-following-patches?comment=0004000000010000000000000000
Verdade (EUNE)
: {{item:3100}} is still extremely popular on her. And even without it, 549 base+0.98 scaling is ridiculously strong considering its range, cooldown and reliability. Next, Q has 4.8s CD at 0% CDR, which means she can Q->powerchord->W->E->Q->powerchord to nuke twice in 4.8s. If she wants to do that again, she has to wait 1-2 seconds more, but it's still TONS of damage.
Lich Bane is popular BECAUSE Sona has shit bases and scalings. Her kit lacks any form of utility, hence why she's forced to be played like a shitty version of an AP Mage like Brand or Lux. A shitty version that doesn't have damage until her first ARTIFICIAL SCALING. You're crying about Sona doing 549 + .98AP, how about we look at some other champions? {{champion:63}} 605 + 1.5AP + (18 + 1.5AP)% {{champion:99}} 770 + 1.7AP {{champion:267}} 780 + 1.6AP {{champion:16}} 690 + 1.15AP NEWS FLASH: Sona has lower potential base damage and scaling than practically every other character in this game played as support. Numbers don't lie.
: > Sona hasn't been oppressive since her nerf all the way back in patch 3.8. Are you nuts? Sona was ***ridiculously broken*** on 6.14
I wonder if that's actually true or if it was just a reflexive response. Suddenly the weakest character in League, which had a less than a tenth of a percent pickrate and literally nobody remembers how to play against, has a surge in pickrate as the sheeple test out new changes. Meddler didn't even wait the full patch cycle before personally gutting her again. I'm more inclined to believe it was just the typical sheeple propaganda and Rito's usual manipulation of false information. "Oh no, an enchanter is being played. That must mean she's broken and most certainly has nothing to do with a new kit that everysheeple wants to try."
: I always thought Sona herself needed a rework, I tried playing her and it wasn't really her power that put me off but rather than fact that she lacked any real game play when compared to other champions. Whenever I ended up somehow forcing myself to try and pick up Sona, I felt her gameplay was more akin to old Warwick outside the playmaking her ultimate could potentially have although if your opponents are good, they won't bunch up like that. Her mini rework might've done more to bring her in line but in the end it didn't really fix her core issues that basically spell this champion shouldn't be viable competitively.
Her "rework" did nothing to bring her in line. The problems with 4.13 and then 6.14 isn't that her issues weren't fixed, they weren't problematic issues to begin with. It's the fact that 4.13 and 6.14 CREATED BRAND NEW ISSUES THAT DIDN'T EXIST BEFORE. Fearless himself publicly stated that there was nothing wrong with Sona's kit and it didn't need to be changed. So of fucking course, he needed to break what wasn't broken.
: Instead of hiding and clicking downvote i would like to know what i said that is not correct.
You didn't buy into the herd mentality and went against their propaganda. You got downvoted for being correct, but not from me mind you.
: Wait is this the sarcasm or the joke? I'm confused.
I too am confused. As someone who hasn't bought RP in 3 years, because Rito decided they don't want my money, clearly stated by the sheer consistent disrespect they show the community. Not to mention the ever-declining quality of visual product, in favor of mass-produced quantities(chromas? are you fucking shitting me? nobody is surprised they're available for IP now.) Hell, the skins team screwed up BAD on a skin "update" and many people asked they fix one easy, but major thing. KateyKhaos personally showed up and spewed verbal obscenities at them. Paying customers were verbally berated for asking to fix an easy mistake. Fuck Rito, greedy bastards the lot of them.
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