Morglics (EUNE)
: I hope you all know riot wont do a thing to balance her out.
It's cause she's cool & flashy and that'll make for good LCS matches.
: > [{quoted}](name=Abrosis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E93n0qrF,comment-id=0010000100000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-11-26T02:45:35.184+0000) > > In the video you linked the olaf falls behind the Kayle by 3 levels. Olaf level 12 going 3/4/3 148cs. Kayle going 3/4/14 163 cs. Is 11 assits 3 levels? Im not entirely sure. I don't believe it is. Olaf and kayle are on 2 seperate teams. Olaf is on the losing team and Kayle is on the winning team. It is not uncommon for the losing team to be 2 or 3 levels behind the winning team even in Season 9. Olaf is only 1 level behind THEIR laner which means they are keeping up with their laner, but the enemy team is snowballing hard on them. Again if you want this to be a conversation about how bad snowballing is sure you have absolute evidence for this and I completely agree, but it is demonstrably wrong that a jungler can not keep up with THEIR solo laners. Edit: everything you are talking about is snowballing and has to do with snowballing and has nothing to do with "jungle xp nerfs make junglers unable to keep up with solo laners" you are framing the conversation as one thing when it is about something completely different.
It has everything to do with the xp nerfs they removed catchup xp.
: > [{quoted}](name=Abrosis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E93n0qrF,comment-id=00100001000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-11-26T02:23:59.551+0000) > > That 12/3/7 game you mention is kind of exactly what Im talking about when I mention junlgers that are very good at early invading (Which kindred is amazing at) is going to dominate meta by shutting down junglers than cannot properly sustain themselves. Rengar never had a chance and you were able to farm him all game. Not only that but because of the lack of catch-up xp he was unable to comeback as an assassin jungler making him virtually useless all game. Sure that might feel fun for a jungler who works in this meta, but so many junglers were killed in the process. And even though kindred does work in this meta it clearly isn't fool proof, examples given by the other games I mentioned of yours. > > Edit: Also you mentioned Challenger junglers keeping up however your video's already been debunked and it proves that jungle doesn't give enough xp. The jungler does well and falls behind, only manages to keep up later by farming lanes and ignoring jungle camps. To your edit, I disagree with most people's analysis of the video as most of you guys were skipping around and not watching the whole thing. Ya he may not farm in the mid to late game, but that's because there are OTHER objectives on the map and he is INFLUENCING the map the very things you guys are complaining about doing and again this is just 1 challenger vid, show me literally any challenger vid where the jungler stays 3 levels behind his solo laners I just need 1. And again I am not sure what you are talking about my "other games" in ALL of my games I have kept even with my laners except the last one which was an experiment. I AGREE snowballing is to big right now, I AGREE that jungle bullies are a thing that people are learning to have to deal with and may be too strong, but that I believe is more of a show of how good neutral objectives are and how punishing counter jungling is ESPECIALLY by comparison to last season. In season 9 the person who counter jungled was PUNISHED for doing so as it reset the camp for the person they counter jungled and meant the camp was worth more gold and xp on respawn. It was a bad idea to counter jungle anything that wasnt a buff camp except in the late game because it just meant that when the person finally cleared it 4 minutes later that the camp would be worth 20% more. NONE of that however, the snow balling; the jungle bullies (essentially lane bullies for the jungle which every laner has had to deal with since the dawn of time, but they have a tower to fall back on) has anything to do with the statement that a jungler "cant keep up with their laners" they can it is a provable fact that they can. If this is about snowballing and unhealthy jungle bullies than lets talk about that, but don't say "junglers cant keep up with solo lanes" when that is provably false. If instead you want to say "when a jungler falls behind it is impossible to influence the map" you have a discussion there and i am interested in hearing it and have no opinion, I think snowballing is pretty bad right now, but "junglers cant keep up with solo laners" there is mountains of evidence to show this is false.
In the video you linked the olaf falls behind the Kayle by 3 levels. Olaf level 12 going 3/4/3 148cs. Kayle going 3/4/14 163 cs. Is 11 assits 3 levels? Im not entirely sure. I don't believe it is. Edit: Olaf is also behind LB by 3 levels. going 7/0/9. Granted this is a bit more understandable, but there's your literal 1 video, by your own link. Edit2: Not only that but olaf ends up falling behind by 4 levels to the khazix who is abusing solo lane xp because teammates are leaving it open. Split push becomes the new meta, not healthy for jg imo.
: > [{quoted}](name=BlackXIV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E93n0qrF,comment-id=00100001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-26T02:18:24.410+0000) > > The only fact you can actually prove is that a jungler that hard carries the game by making a lot of successful ganks, taxing and clearing efficiently, on champions that farm fast can keep up with a solo laner, which is silly, a player in that state should outlevel anyone by a few. > > Trying to bring up the argument that it's an objective fact that jungle isn't starved is equally silly since it was always behind lanes in terms of resources and it only keeps on getting nerfed. > > All you do is present situational evidence that it is possible not to fall behind, well thanks Sherlock, you would't have an argument, you would have a boycott if that wasn't the case. except I have shown games where unsuccessful ganks happen as well, and still stay even. I mean can you show me 1 video of a challenger player falling 3 levels behind their laner. I just need 1 because I have not seen one yet. I even presented evidence of games where I fell behind and it still worked, I am not cherry picking here you can pick any challenger video you want I dont care, my anecdotal evidence is no more invalid than yours. Mine just happens to show you the solution if you decide to listen to it rather than simply continuing to do the same thing without adaptation and complaining that the old way doesnt work in a new jungle meta.
In the video you linked the olaf falls behind the Kayle by 3 levels. Olaf level 12 going 3/4/3 148cs. Kayle going 3/4/14 163 cs. Is 11 assits 3 levels? Im not entirely sure. I don't believe it is. Edit: Missed kayles cs.
: > [{quoted}](name=Abrosis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E93n0qrF,comment-id=001000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-26T01:45:21.423+0000) > > The statement is not falsehood. In fact my statement is popular opinion here. Most people experience this and agree the solo lane xp to jungle xp ratio is unbalanced. > You might feel like this meta is refreshing until you see WW, Yi, Noct, Lee Sin, Nunu, spam. There are less viable junglers today than there were last patch. > > Notice those games you did particularly well you have quite a bit of minion cs instead of neutral camps. Seems to me you went and split pushed sort of confining for a jungler. I can go 10/1 better farm than their top laner who is beating my top by 2/1. I will still be 2 levels below him. The only way I can get ahead is if I abuse solo lane xp. Thats not a healthy meta. > > Split pushing meta is going to be a problem vs champions that cannot be 1v1'd. If that champ is left alone long enough (Which not longer needs to be that long now that solo xp has gotten a huge buff). There's so many problems with this patch. > > You realize youre a minority right? You don't feel like there's something telling about that? Opinion does not = fact. If I can keep even with my laners by properly farming and ganking and so can challenger players than the PROVABLE FACT is that junglers CAN keep up with solo laners and dont fall behind. It is not a question of how a game feels to people, but what is the actual visible results so popular opinion doesnt actually matter. My games have proof that this is not a thing. Also my last couple games I decided to play the old way instead of doing what I know was supposed to be right and I can see how everyone is falling behind, not efficient farming and not adapting to the new jungle. No I do not have a bunch of minion cs. 12/3/7 total 17 minion cs over 100 jungle cs. The max I get up to is 50 and that happens naturally when you are pushing to end the game in multiple bursts. It is also not uncommon for junglers to catch side waves go back to the season 9 stuff and you will see the same thing, and I am only in the minority of VOCAL people here on the boards, which is VERY biased as people rarely post when they are HAPPY with something they are much more likely to complain. The fact that there is even a vocal group that are praising it at all screams how good it is and how WRONG everyone who is complaining about it is, and even if there was an ACTUAL majority that would still be a Argumentum ad populum. Also with viable junglers you forgot Lee sin, Evelyn, Shaco, Khazix, Shyvanna, Udyr, Amumu, Dr. Mundo, kayne. Vs previous season which was lee Sin, Rek'sai, elise, evelyn, ekko, Dr Mundo, Shaco, khazix... and that was it. Edit: to respond to your edit. I agree that games are very snowbally, but I personally WORRY about catch up xp coming back because that was what previously allowed the toxic gameplay of perma gank lanes and then just catch up with the catch up xp, it also meant counter jungling was SUPER punishing because you cleared their camp and they just got the respawned more xp worth camp anyway and you ended up making them catch up even faster instead of denying them. I agree that jungle bullies ARE too strong right now and the super healthy clearers and super strong early drake clearers need to be toned down a bit. I WANT counter jungling to a be a viable strat because we need answers to strong ganking junglers and their needs to be more playstyles in the jungle. As far as the lack of influence goes I do believe there is LESS influence on the map, but not because we CANT influence, but because of the cost of influence. If you influence a lane you show and that means the enemy jungler knows they can counter jungle you on the opposite side. If any lane has the worst influence in the game I feel it is bot. Ya they are near dragon and they can help decide those, but their lane is often times decided by the mid and jungler rather than them, they can be ahead but when they get 4 manned down bot side it wont matter and this is coming from the jungler, you know I just spam the same champ every game and they aren't one of the toxic ones last season or the toxic ones this season, but to say we have no influence I think completely ignores why the junglers that are strong right now are strong. For gank junglers it is going to be about getting that mid lane help, or that top lane to help with the mid lane. Heralds may need a buff, or the community need to realize how good an early herald is and how good a split push herald is so that you can pressure other lanes. I mean a game like my 12/3/7 doesnt exist if we have THAT little influence, because I am honest to goodness really bad.
That 12/3/7 game you mention is kind of exactly what Im talking about when I mention junlgers that are very good at early invading (Which kindred is amazing at) is going to dominate meta by shutting down junglers than cannot properly sustain themselves. Rengar never had a chance and you were able to farm him all game. Not only that but because of the lack of catch-up xp he was unable to comeback as an assassin jungler making him virtually useless all game. Sure that might feel fun for a jungler who works in this meta, but so many junglers were killed in the process. And even though kindred does work in this meta it clearly isn't fool proof, examples given by the other games I mentioned of yours. Edit: Also you mentioned Challenger junglers keeping up however your video's already been debunked and it proves that jungle doesn't give enough xp. The jungler does well and falls behind, only manages to keep up later by farming lanes and ignoring jungle camps.
: > [{quoted}](name=Abrosis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E93n0qrF,comment-id=0010000100000000,timestamp=2019-11-25T20:09:54.753+0000) > > Just looking at some of your recent games you're just unaware of how lopsided the xp is right now, rewarding solo players for doing poorly. The last lost game you have you're doing well enough on a losing team. 4/8/1 82 cs. Your top lane is 1/9/1 71 cs and is the same level you are. > > In another game of yours you go 5/8/3 131 cs. Your mid TF is 0/5/2 128 cs. TF has 2 levels on you. > > How does that feel healthy? They're rewarded for doing poorly where jungle isn't rewarded at all. I kept even with my laners is my point. The cs is pretty even if I am 82 and they are 71. ya they did bad, but so did I technically. Still kept even with them the whole way through. And you are right I am down 2 levels on the TF, BUT I also have 3 more deaths than he does so while he could not CS he COULD soak minion XP, and if the game had gone on 10 seconds longer I would have only been 1 level down on him because I was close to level, so either way I am staying even in levels. We are all doing poorly and we lose. If the complaint is about how snowbally everything is I 100% agree a single death in lane or in jungle can put you behind the enemy team VERY fast, but it is NOT hard for a jungler to keep even with levels with their laners. I actually would not mind if they lowered XP throughout the game as a whole to slow the pace down, but that hasn't been your complaint your complaint is that a jungler can't keep up with laners for XP and in every game I have stayed within 1 or 2 levels of MY laners, and so have better junglers than me. Which means your statement is pure falsehood. Edit: let's look at other games, my last game where I went 12/3/7 I am 20 cs down from my top laner and only 1 level down, feels pretty rewarding.... or how about a game I won and did POOR in. 4/10/13 even cs with my bot lane ahead on cs with my mid and top only 1 level down from either of them even though my top lane went 11/5/22. So I am still keeping pace when I am doing bad and my laners are doing great. Hell my worse game 3/8/0 my laners 4/7/4 and 4/3/4 and I am still even in levels with them. I am staying even, when doing poor, when doing well, when my laners do poor, or do well, just by keeping decent cs numbers. Edit 2: the game feels healthy to me because I am not just seeing the same early game spam gank junglers every game doing well and everyone else left out to dry. I am still seeing those junglers do well when they know how to bully lanes and enemy junglers, but I am also seeing hard farm late game scaling junglers do well. I am seeing counter junglers doing well. I am seeing more jungle paths that are being able to be taken, it is no longer the same route for every jungler every game. I have been even able to mix up my starting clear multiple times, sometimes it works, sometimes my ganks/ invades go horribly wrong, but all of the paths feel viable. The gromp change was one of the strongest changes and respawn timers being lower allowing farming junglers a leg in means it is not all 100% gank all the time or you are worthless. My jungle game isn't dependent on how much I can gank lanes, it is dependent on how well I control my jungle match up and objectives, and sometimes doing that means getting lane priority through lane ganks and sometimes that means bullying enemy junglers and sometimes that means giving up one side of the map to invade and get caught up through invades while they focus the objective so that you are ready for the next object. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt but it feels so much better either way.
The statement is not falsehood. In fact my statement is popular opinion here. Most people experience this and agree the solo lane xp to jungle xp ratio is unbalanced. You might feel like this meta is refreshing until you see WW, Yi, Noct, Trynd, Ekko, Nunu, spam. There are less viable junglers today than there were last patch IMO. Notice those games you did particularly well you have quite a bit of minion cs instead of neutral camps. Seems to me you went and split pushed sort of confining for a jungler. I can go 10/1 better farm than their top laner who is beating my top by 2/1. I will still be 2 levels below him. The only way I can get ahead is if I abuse solo lane xp. Thats not a healthy meta. Split pushing meta is going to be a problem vs champions that cannot be 1v1'd. If that champ is left alone long enough (Which not longer needs to be that long now that solo xp has gotten a huge buff). There's so many problems with this patch. You realize youre a minority right? You don't feel like there's something telling about that? Edit: Late game junglers are currently in an awful position because they take much longer to get to late game now. I agree that the evenly spread camps are nice, but I think catchup xp is **required.** . Catchup xp prevents games from being snowbally and allows potential for comebacks. Right now games can be over for the jungler within the first few minutes if you pick a scaling jungler thats only going to get bullied. Kayn is having a very rough time for example. Don't believe me? Go check winrates. So many previously decent junglers have plummeted below their previous winrates. We are currently left with a meta where your champion needs to be incredibly good at doing dragon early or needs to be incredibly good at making sure the jungler loses a couple of camps. It doesnt take much. Take their Red, Krugs, Blue, Gromp occasionally. You don't even have to be that persistent. No catchup xp makes them useless after 2 clears of one of their sides of jungle. It doesn't take much to force a snowball this patch. Not only that but the influence we actually have is so minimal lately. Get a botlane that loses then you're likelihood of sucessfully impacting a game has dramatically dropped. Not only does their bot lane hold dragon control, but they were originally the only real viable gank, unless you have a solo laner that is doing well in which case you may be allowed to leach off of them for an assist. We've lost impact. It's awful.
mark6028 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=BlackXIV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E93n0qrF,comment-id=000e00000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-11-25T02:55:31.321+0000) > > It's pointless arguing with laners, they don't understand how starved we actually are, they grab 2 random kills and feel like it's skills if they can suddenly 1v2 without breaking a sweat. Yeah you poor poor jungle players. Literally lane rejects for years. Most broken role since forever now, atleast season 6. While your role gets dumbed down every season . Literally perma full health, the most broken objectives in the game. Every champion overbuffed to the max. Like what the fuck do you even want. Literally all you need to do anymore is farm a camp gank, farm a camp gank and actual good junglers do that. That's why it's the most broken role while all low elo junglers ever do is afk farm and cry why they can'T carry games. Everyone except junglers agrees how busted, unfun and healthy this shitrole is for the game. The jungle by design should NEVER be a carry role and this has been the mistake from the beginning. Riot constantly tried to make this role a carry role. By perma farming, perma ganking, now a mix of farm and ganking and it's always cancerous as fuck. It is a support role and should be a support role same like the actual supports who have more power over the game than adc and toplane combined.
Jungle was never a support role it was always meant for heavy influence. This is why there are a lot of junglers who are assassins. You want to talk about a dumbed down role? You're a fucking top main who Riot bent over backwards to appease. Its doesn't matter how trash you are at this game anymore because you will be rewarded by all that solo xp and top lane exclusion. {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
: > [{quoted}](name=Worst JG Wins,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E93n0qrF,comment-id=00100001,timestamp=2019-11-25T01:30:25.468+0000) > > You literally linked a video where the JG is 3/0/0 and is lower level then the 0/3/0 mid laner that is constantly roaming. > > You couldn't even cherry pick an example. I wasnt cherry picking. It was literally the first challenger video I found. I could link literally ANY challenger vid and none of them fall 3 levels down. He was 1 level down from a laner that is not a big deal. I can do it, I watch diamond players that can do it, challengers can do it. Honestly, this is the healthiest the jungle has been in years, not perma ganking and not perma farming a balance is required and objective play is the decider. This just feels right, those that dont agree fine, but you should not be falling 3 levels down from your solo laners if you are playing right. At MOST you should only ever fall 1 MAYBE 2 levels down and if you are 2 levels probably clear 1 camp and you wont be anymore., if you are 3 levels down the problem is YOU not the new jungle, and not the new solo lane xp.
Just looking at some of your recent games you're just unaware of how lopsided the xp is right now, rewarding solo players for doing poorly. The last lost game you have you're doing well enough on a losing team. 4/8/1 82 cs. Your top lane is 1/9/1 71 cs and is the same level you are. In another game of yours you go 5/8/3 131 cs. Your mid TF is 0/5/2 128 cs. TF has 2 levels on you. How does that feel healthy? They're rewarded for doing poorly where jungle isn't rewarded at all.
klin537 (NA)
: yeah its so annoying how they nerfed the jungle over and over again saying that "junglers are too powerful" and I think their goal is to get us to farm more instead of spam gank. I don't think they realized that with the jungle nerfed so badly, we actually get more exp from spam ganking than if we just farmed continuously.
Not only will we get more from spam ganking, but we will only be able to spam gank bot lane. Like Bot didn't feel like they got fucked enough by Riot.
: Rito: jUSt pLAy eKkO gUYs! {{champion:245}}
Rito: Guys remember this guy? {{champion:19}} Remember how he was important? Wouldnt that be fun again to make him the most important jungler in the game?
Tentaku (EUNE)
: Healthy or not, jungle agency had to be reduced. You can not have a 5v5 team game where one player on each side has 50% agency.
Its been reduced far too much is the point here. It's not healthy for the game. Jungles intention was always for map pressure. To say they should instead not have influence in lanes is a very Hashinshin response. Hope you truly like where jungle is at right now because if it stays this way this is the role you will be autofilled to most. I also disagree with the fact that Jungle had 50% influence on how the game turned out. Jungle has more influence than most to nudge a lane in a direction but that's sort of the point of the role. A lot of the influence on whether you win a game or not has to do with tracking the enemy and preventing being ganked which believe it or not isnt entirely on your jungler. And that's before you consider you having to actually win your own lane. Believe it or not Jungle doesn't decide what lanes win. Jungle is suppose to empower lanes that are already in favor. If you've lost your own lane its likely from your own mistakes.
: > [{quoted}](name=Abrosis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E93n0qrF,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2019-11-25T00:58:23.778+0000) > > Just quickly skipping ahead in the video to random points I notice he's farming lanes A LOT. He ignores most of his jungle camps because they're not worth getting. He's better off constantly cover lanes or stealing lane xp just to keep up. This isn't OK for jungle. if you are randomly skipping and not watching the whole thing you are not seeing any of it. His opening is nearly a full clear. He clears one side almost on CD at the start and he is being ADAPTIVE in how he paths when ganking. He is not just sitting in a bush for a minute and a half without doing anything and then letting catch up xp keep him even. Even in Season 9 it was not uncommon for junglers to help push a lane that is just part of being a good jungler. Heck my own games should be somewhat anecdotal as well. Last game 110 jungle mobs killed 17 minions.... same level as laners 12 kills. Watch the whole thing and dont skip around, sure he isnt CONSTANTLY clearing, you wont impact the map if you are, but he is doing a healthy balance if you pay attention to the whole thing.
At the start of this second clear he is already 1 level down from his 1/2 top who has half his farm. If you truly paid attention to your own video you would have caught this.
Tentaku (EUNE)
: You have to pay something for your superior ability to influence the map and control objectives.
Is the currency your overall ability to actually affect the game? This isn't healthy for junglers. This has easily made it the least picked role in the game. Ofcourse you're a top main. Get out.
: > [{quoted}](name=boricCentaur1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E93n0qrF,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-11-24T17:59:46.166+0000) > > Since that isn't how xp works. Also have you even played jg? Since it sounds like you have no clue wtf you're talking about since if camps respawn faster that means you have more xp even with the nerfs to xp. It's actually impossible for any jungler in the game to keep up with respawns. The camps respawning faster just means more camps up for my laners to tax post lane phase.
And removing catchup xp. If you get taxed you're out so much experience.
DatPolak (NA)
: JG XP SUCKS THIS PATCH
Thank god someone else is saying something. Jungle is the least rewarding role to play. It's not even close to even. Even if you power farm like riot suggests, with the best power farmers in the game. Ex. Kayn. Amazing camp clears/Pathing. You will be out leveled by your top/mid and in some cases your jg. Before someone tries to tell me "Perhaps you're just not playing very well in the jungle" I've had multiple games where Im doing very well in kills/farm. Going something like 10/1 and maybe 40 farm on my top lane that is maybe 1/2. That top laner will have 2 levels on me EASY unless I steal lane xp (Which really sets teammates back now) Or if I manage to cover the lane against the enemy laner who is also 2 levels on me. MAYBE then I can maintain only being 1-2 levels behind my laner.
Aekhalos (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=DatPolak,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E93n0qrF,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-11-24T15:47:47.692+0000) > > Please tell me how a teemo with 65 CS and has gone 0/5/0 in laning phase is 2 levels higher than me when I am 2/1/4 with 104 CS. You didnt fix JG XP you broke it. 5% less xp all game its either you Counter JG so you can make up for the xp or you gank a lane 24/7 and then have to take the kills and 2 waves worth of minions to stay even. Choose either make jg useless or force them to only be hard carrying all game thats this patch in a nut shell. Same issue here. Just won a game playing xin in 4/1/5 all drakes and taking as much camps as i can and 119 cs and our support thresh is 2/1/12 45 cs and gets a whole level ahead of mine. What do i have to do in order to get a "normal level" ? I was always getting some farm or objectives for the whole game and i get a lower level than the support... Jungler role is sh*t !
Dont worry, all jungles feel the same. Currently I refuse to play while the game is in this "Meta" Its fucking terrible. Playing jungle feels LESS rewarding that playing support right now. You can make amazing solo plays, outfarm EVERY laner and still be 2-3 levels below them. This meta isn't ok at all.
: I feel like if you're playing a power farming jungler, you can generally get further ahead than you would've been if you power farmed last season. That being said, if you're behind and/or you're ganking a lot, you'll be set further behind because the camp respawn timers come up faster. Jungle XP this season is definitely going to be better for champions like Master Yi, Karthus, and Graves, but it's probably going to hurt champions like Xin Zhao, who depends on ganking a lot more. I feel like this season will have a heavier focus on powerfarming, objective-focused junglers like Shyvana, or junglers who excel at early objectives, like Warwick, who can take the dragon at level 4, or something ridiculous like that. The game will probably have a heavier focus on bot side when the first dragon spawns, but it'll shift to top when herald spawns, so that the team can get 2 heralds in a game. At least, that's my prediction for how jungling will work this season. Thank god there'll be less ganks...
This power farming jungle meta is awful. Last season it felt like a coin flip, but this? You better fucking pray your solo laners are better than theirs because it's the only thing that matters. Going to sneak a drag? better make sure mid doesn't see you & top doesn't have tp. Also, better go bully bot lane because they're the only thing viable to stomp into the ground. Still a cointoss on that split pushing top. Good luck stopping the monster that has 3-4 levels on you because he built {{item:3181}} and wont leave lane.
Sylaelque (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Support Position,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E93n0qrF,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-11-24T19:43:48.100+0000) > > Just a question, are you killing your krugs? As they are the best non buff exp in the game other than gromp. > > You HAVE to protect Gromp, Krugs and raptors. Other than your buffs. Ward up. Its not exp that sucks. Its the fact that SPECIFIC champions are good. > > {{champion:121}} {{champion:107}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:141}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:56}} {{champion:20}} {{champion:72}} (With pillar) {{champion:23}} {{champion:48}} {{champion:5}} {{champion:19}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:77}} > > Now a days you HAVE to play things that YOU can 1v1 enemy junglers. > > {{champion:154}} {{champion:33}} (some situations.) {{champion:28}} {{champion:79}} {{champion:104}} (kind of) {{champion:9}} {{champion:32}} things like this YOU CANNOT play anymore. At all. Period. You're too exp and gold dependant. You at level 1. NEED to be able to fight an enemy jungler and win. > > That's this meta for the junglers. Staying IN their jungle. Basically not ganking unless its **100%** FOR SURE. A kill. Or a flash for a guaranteed kill next time. It's "unfortunate" but its the new meta. > > {{champion:427}} Unless your this. Then you know what? You can do whatever the fuck you want cause you'll just take it anyway. I'm main {{champion:28}} and she can't do anything anymore which I climbed to gold 2 from bronze 4 in 2 weeks. Now, being a late game jungler feels so useless and things have already determined within first 10 min. {{sticker:sg-janna}}
This. My kayn feels useless now. It doesnt matter if im 12/1 on kayn, farming incredibly well. The top lane going 1/3 with LESS farm is out levelling me.
: Riot seems to learn nothing from the past. Power farming meta is not healthy. The jungle being virtually afk for the first quarter or half of a match is not healthy. It is the reason why devourer was removed. It is the reason why Warwick was reworked. It is because the jungle doing nothing but a farm game for 10-20 minutes of the match is not healthy. Jungle was bad last season and it's worse now. And Riot professing a healthy change in clear paths is absolute crap considering the fact that pathing has been outright warped by the dragon changes.
Jungle was at least manageable last season. This feels like a deeper conspiracy to ruin jungle for this patch so us junglers will be THANKFUL to Riot for reverting it back to S8 even though it's still not 'Great' for junglers.
Tentaku (EUNE)
: In S9 you could do 3 ganks for this Yasuo and don't even lose a level for it, freely denying any advantage that enemy toplaner generated. Now to deny a 3-0 advantage you need some massive outplay. As it should be.
Again i feel like the point is being missed here. If this guy was on the opposite team, he still couldnt 1v1 the 0-3 yasuo who cannot farm to save his life. Does that make any fucking sense?
Tentaku (EUNE)
: Have you ever thought that if your teammate is 0-3 you are NOT supposed to be able to help them easily anymore?
Imagine having a teammat go 0-3, has half your farm and is doing far better than you who is actually making good plays. Its bullshit.
: From what i see, RIOTers really do hate us Junglers tbh. oh...., and ad carries lol. Jgl/ADC are the victims of this issue EVERY SINGLE TIME... And when u go into a game, ur teammates starts to whine 3 mins onto a game while we literally trying to get to lvl 3 lol {{sticker:sg-zephyr}}
Right now they dont understand why we wont gank when our laners hit lvl 6. It's because we JUST got to level 5. No ult, we're an easy target for the enemy especially when our laner is behind.
: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmNfVSsNnu4 seems like challenger junglers are having no issue staying even with their laners. I am not having issue either, but I am silver and bad and so are the people i am placed against. Learn the pathing and keep farmed while ganking and you wont fall behind.
Just quickly skipping ahead in the video to random points I notice he's farming lanes A LOT. He ignores most of his jungle camps because they're not worth getting. He's better off constantly cover lanes or stealing lane xp just to keep up. This isn't OK for jungle.
: is my friend delusional??
Gold players are so arrogant. Gold is the high end of low elo and they think they're tough shit. I was there too, its just cringey.
: Jungle Practice
This is not the time to learn jungle. You're going to have a miserable time in 9.23.
: I mean thays just untrue allot of juglers dont have to back{{champion:516}} is my fav one
according to U.gg ornn currently has a 36% winrate. Idk if that holds up.
makkii (NA)
: I dont get what people are complaining about, junglers just exchanged solo power for more mapwide influence, and mapwide/macro influence is sorta the point of the jungle role. The only junglers for which this is a nerf are the junglers who spam unsuccessful ganks on lanes just to be a nuisance to the opposig laners and expect NOT to get punished for failing because of catchup XP. If you have skill, the jungle is arguably better now, if you suck and literally relied on catchup xp to cushion your lack of skill, then yeah its worse. Realistically, anyone with a brain should realize that it wasn’t really fair for junglers to have equivalent solo power to solo laners considering how much more mapwide influence and pressure junglers contribute to the game, especially if you compare the jungle role to toplane in s9
This jungle nerf is awful right now. It makes so many junglers obsolete. Because of the xp nerfs you're going to get outscaled by any top or mid as long as they sit in their lane. The dont even need to farm better or get any kills and they will outscale you. It takes 1 decent mid laner to get a small lead, run it down bot for an easy double kill, and then secure drag uncontested because what are you going to do? That mid laner has 4 levels on the jungler.
: Yeah, the jungle exps are indeed fucked up. A few matches ago, my 0/5/0 gnar top was 2 levels ahead of my 6/1 master yi xD.
It's honestly depressing. I can't play the game right now because of it. The only strong characters are top and mid. But it doesnt matter how strong they are when all that matters is who's bot lane can hold pressure and take drag. Which is a really shit meta since bot + jg took massive nerfs recently. A good mid that roams bot and secures the OP dragons wins games currently. This meta is miserable and I so desperately hope riot reads over these posts for feedback. The game is in a worse position than it was in s8 with the crit nerfs. It honestly hurts to see a game I love ruined in a single overloaded patch.
: Junglers should be around the same level as bot lane. If the issue is simply that mid and top are much higher than the other 3 roles, then the issue there lies with how solo XP has been adjusted higher, not anything to do with junglers.
I think there's an issue of removing catchup xp for junglers. If you get behind as a jungler your games over. If the enemy jungler capitalizes on your first death the games over for you. You will always be behind and an easy target. Forget about your game if the top or mid realizes they can just dick on you for fun with that solo xp buff.
5050BS (NA)
: Junglers have been spoiled for the last 2 seasons. Get over yourselves and let other laners be the turning point to a match.
Season 9 for junglers: Xp nerfs, Gold income nerfs, Darkharvest change (Which was originally made for junglers) so that it doesn't work from farming anymore. Season 9 was awful for junglers. This is just so much worse. Last season it was right next to supp for being the least picked role, and most likely to be autofilled to. This season will be so much worse. I hope you truly enjoy not being impactful in the game because if this change stays for S10 you bet your ass you will be filled jungle. Been a jg main for 3 years and Im feeling a role change.
: I did not misread. I used bottom as an example. You should be able to predict in what part of the jungle is the enemy jungler and counter-gank accordingly... Nevermind, probably no point to discuss that in here...
I think the bigger issue is that bot lane is currently the only viable lane to spam gank. You can gank top all you want, they will out level you, they will scale faster than you no matter what. I've been in a game going like 3/1/4 out farming my mid laner who was going 0/ 6/0. I was 2 levels behind him. This meta is awful.
Invexes (NA)
: The solo xp buff is so dumb. Mid was already the best role in the game. But now they can consistently be 2-4 levels up all game. If the enemy solo lane gets fed the game feel so bad to play right now.
Imagine giving assassins a huge xp buff & more op lethality items in the same patch.
nm1010 (NA)
: Junglers not matching solos is kind of the point, but I would be fine with a mid-late jungle exp buff so they aren't below bot lane come mid game.
Junglers being inheritly weaker than everyone in the game is kind of the point? This is so wrong. Jungling is suppose to be equally viable to a solo lane.
Yenn (NA)
: Jungle EXP really needs to be revisited
The experience I had a couple games ago: I had 20+ farm over my mid laner. I was like 2/1/4 My mid laner was 0/6/1 I was 2 levels below my mid laner. What the fuck is going on here?
: Need advice on avoiding jungle ganks as ADC
Jungle main here. Theres a few simple things you can do to avoid getting ganked. First and foremost, TRACK THE JUNGLER. If bot lane leashed their jungler he's going to start bot side. You can use your jungler as a good indicator of where theres is for the early game. When he's done clearing, they're probably done clearing and will be heading top. Some junglers like to gank early, however. If you're not sure where their jungler is, back off. You can't rely on tracking their jungler by your jungler movements for very long either. At some point their pathing will change. Don't over extend without proper vision. If you find yourself near their tower, low on hp, you look like a nice juicy gank for their jungler. If they have hard cc and you and your support don't have a good disengage that jungler is going to be hovering your lane because it's easy picks for him. If you dont have summoner spells their bot lane called it out to their jungler so he knows. You're going to be vulnerable. Play around your weaknesses. Prepare for it. If the enemy gets really aggressive when they really shouldn't be its because they know something you don't. Get out. TLDR; * Track their jungler * Keep gank and escape potential in mind (which team has more cc, which team has more mobility) * Play safe unless you _know_ where that jungler is. * Pay attention to your enemies behavior
Leblonsh (NA)
: Jungle Dilemma
The gaps between jungle level and the other lanes grow so big so fast. If you dont desperately gank for potential kills or quickly cover lanes after your laner dies for the xp and gold they would lose to tower (low elo will flame you for this btw) you'll end up being roughly the same level as a supp. This is awful for champs with weak early games (Like {{champion:141}}, my main, for example.) He has one of the lowest ad of any jungler and his base form is just awful. But as Kayn you HAVE to gank or you'll never powerspike. The good news is Kayn can clear jungle really well, the bad news is that means fuck all with the recent nerfs. I dont think jungle was in a fair place pre-nerf, but it forsure needs some balancing right now.
Locreth (NA)
: Jungle atm
I'm also a Kayn main, and you're right these games really are a gamble. If I can get fed I can absolutely carry a game as Conqueror Kayn. Getting fed isnt always possible though when your lanes tend to lose, and for me all of my lanes usually lose, even if I gank for them effectively, its no use. I've had a {{champion:51}} start in her lane 3/0 from an invade, i counter ganked their jungler bot and she became 6/0. Defintely ks's but whatever, my adc's so fed we can't lose right? She didn't get another kill all game and ended up feeding so hard. I swear it doesnt matter what you do for a lane, if they're bad they'll find a way to lose the game for you. It's so frustrating as a jungler. In theory these coin toss games should be 50/50 but they arent. My lanes typically lose and it ends up being up to me and maybe another lane. I typically do well so theres always a chance to come back. However I've had bad games for sure, I cant rule that out. I've made mistakes and it's almost impossible to come back. I think Riot needs to fix how snowbally their game has become. It stops being fun when their top lane has 3 levels on everyone else in the game and is virtually impossible to kill unless he hard ints.
Rioter Comments
Hoku (NA)
: The Struggles of Support Mains
Might not be the most flamed role but definitely the least appreciated.
Grove537 (NA)
: With this new skin, owl be quinning all my games
That was just owlful. Just Quin while you're ahead.

Abrosis

Level 236 (NA)
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