: Hey there. I don't really want to use this as an opportunity to defend my record. (Spoiler: I think it's fine). However, I'd love a chance to talk about how we view League's long-term strategy, which may be a topic that not every player often thinks about. The traditional way to make a game was to package it in a box for 60 USD or whatever and put it on the shelf in a Gamestop, or going way back, an EB or something. You wanted players to love your game, but you also wanted them to finish your game, because you only made money on the box, and you needed them to not only value that box, but to want the next box, and the one after that. We sometimes talk about this consumer product strategy as "planned obsolescence." The first game I worked on that didn't follow that strategy was an MMO, where much of the revenue came from a subscription. The strategy was to keep players so engaged that they never got bored and risked unsubscribing. Turns out this is pretty hard to do. Players do eventually move on to other games, so to keep your revenue constant, you need to keep bringing in new players. This model tends to be even more extreme in microtransaction games, especially mobile ones (and especially low quality mobile ones) where players may quickly get tired of your nonsense and paywalls and running out of resources. The business model here is to constantly get new players (or rope current players into bringing in their friends) because if you ever run out of new players, you quickly run out of money. The reason we think League can be evergreen and last for many years is that it works really differently. The game is free to play and there is no subscription. Much of League's revenue comes from optional cosmetic content. This creates a situation where players don't often feel the need to formally quit - there is no unsub moment or anything. The icon is still sitting there on your computer when you want to go back to it. So compared to many games, our churn rate is really low. Players may take breaks, but many come back. This also means we are less dependent on new players. Our strategy is to keep current players engaged and happy. Historically we've made very little effort to attract new players. In terms of evergreen games, I often use examples like Magic, D&D or possibly Pokemon. Those are games that you can drift in and out of for years. They evolve.They release new products. But they are still recognizable over time and have been around for decades. Will they last forever? I don't know. But they last a lot longer than most games. That's what we aspire to do with League (and no, we're not there yet). Riot as a company invests heavily in esports, but on the League team it is not always forefront in our minds. Our balance philosophy for example focuses on players in the high Plat / low Diamond skill level. Balancing only for esports is a little short-sighted because you are tuning the game literally for a few dozen people, while probably making the game worse for tens of millions. When we do make changes specifically for esports, it tends to be right around Worlds and is also focused more on esports viewers than pro players. In other words, we don't make a ton of changes just for esports, and those we do make are often targeted on making a game that is fun to watch. The vast majority of our features (things like missions, champion mastery, matchmaking, Star Guardian Invasion) have almost no impact on esports at all. They are for the rest of us. As a company, esports does have benefits and that's why it's an important part of our company strategy. We don't spend much on traditional marketing, and in a way esports is part of our marketing. Pro games also provide a way for players to stay connected to League if they're taking a break from the game as I mentioned above. Esports can also be aspirational because it's inspiring to see players playing the exact same game as you but doing things you didn't know were possible. It's an opportunity for the community to come together. It's a celebration of League. Does Riot want additional games? Absolutely. We want to be a game company that stands the test of time, and we know we need a whole library of games to do that. But we aren't willing to shift so many resources away from League and towards new games that we hurt the one successful game that we do have. Remember, we don't need that planned obsolescence model that I mentioned above. More games will come in time, and we have time. I know that was long, but I hope it helps provide a little more perspective about how we think about product strategy.
Just wanted to say thank you for dragging the Jungle back to life after the shit show that was mid-end Season 7 with catchup XP. I actually feel like I can punish junglers for mistakes again without having to worry that outfarming them/counterjungling them is useless because they'll just farm raptors once and catch back up in levels.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Abyssal Lolth,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=A2qB0WtW,comment-id=0023,timestamp=2017-02-01T09:18:09.460+0000) > > {{champion:60}} : She eats me. > > If it goes well, I eat her ;) it's funny because female black widow spiders do literally eat there mates after "you know what" (hence the name), so the answer would actually be both.
Possibly! Elise is a human transformed into a semi-immortal human/spider demigoddess via venom from Vilemaw, an Ancient Spider God in the Shadow Isles, therefore, I'm not sure natural spider mating habits hold true! A more genuine answer is probably something along the lines of: If it goes well, we end up back at my place. If it goes wrong, we end up back at her place.
: You have to take your main on a date. How wrong can it go?
{{champion:60}} : She eats me. If it goes well, I eat her ;)
: It's better as an offensive tool since you can get to targets quickly. It sucks as an escape.
: Elise broken
Elise is actually very fluid to play and rappel is one of the best tools she has in her kit! As soon as you play her more, you'll get used to cooldowns, and if you're really having a super tough time on it, some CDR runes might help you out (Though I'm swinging to the opinion that AP blues are better than cdr ones) A lot of that awkwardness just comes from not comboing or timing cooldowns correctly. Some basic combos: Basic burst combo: E -Q - W - R - Q (casting Q first allows for the full amount of damage since it deals more damage the higher HP someone is) Basic burst combo (from longer range) E - W - Q - R - Q (casting W first allows the travel time between the spider and your target, you should still have time for the Q to hit first.) Use spider W and some AA's before Q if Q will not be enough to burst them very low (Such as if they have 50% or higher health after your combo) as spider Q scales off of missing health, so it's essentially an execute.) Since you claimed that rappel is "neat, but unuseable" here are some general useful reasons to use rappel! 1. To close the gap between a fleeing enemy and yourself. 2. To reset tower aggro after a dive, especially if you can get out of range on the back of an enemy minion. 3. To escape being chased. Either by rappelling onto an enemy minion if there is one far from your pursuers, rappelling onto scuttle, rappelling to a monster camp, or an enemy in front of you and your pursuers. 4. To get from camp to camp faster by rappelling over wall. 5. To dodge incoming abilities. (Syndra Q, Vi Q, Hecarim ult all come to mind.) 6. To cancel out or avoid the damage of the ults of certain champions (Zed, Fizz, Cait. This requires proper timing.) 7. To easily access the backline of a team. There are certainly others, but those were the first that came readily to mind, and the uses I use most often when playing the champion! Hope that helps :)
: Those changes would be interesting. I don't think it would hurt elise too much since every other jungler would face the same issue. We'll have to see, I just hope when I level 3 a lane my laner doesn't complain about still being level 2 anymore. With the dark seal, its a good item to have because it gives flat AP, and it makes elise get more reward for ganking (snowballing or AP for assist). Plus bonus healing from refillable. The general pathing I go: {{item:1041}} {{item:2031}} (hunters machete makes you deal more damage to kill camps faster) Blue side: Red, raptors, blue, top/mid/invade red, gromp, wolves, back Red side: blue, raptors, red, top/mid/rush blue, krugs, back {{item:1001}} {{item:2055}} {{item:1082}}, assuming i got no kills yet and can only afford these three. Clear bot side jungle, tilt their vayne This means just running to bot lane and doing a successful gank can get me 2-4 stacks (3-12 bonus AP) making up for the blue buff nerfs. Pretty much, the seal just makes the playstyle reward more active plays and makes actually fighting you harder. As a side note: masteries i run are the same as korean elise's, and runes are attack speed reds, %hp per level yellows, AP quints and blues. I do believe attack speed reds meta for elise is back from preseason 6 and i do see a significantly easier time clearing with them and clearing much faster. --- EDIT: Korean elises do better cause their meta favors ending their game ASAP and capatilizing on openings hard, its rare to see a korean game go past 30 minutes, and additionally koreans often open mid a lot due to their league time, so elise tilting a team early makes them more likely. In NA one person may tilt but everybody will just stall to the late game unintentionally cause nobody knows how to close, and then elise falls off.
Gotcha! Perhaps I'll go for the hyper-early game style again. One thing that I was having trouble with with that style was people not wanting to end the game/throwing on my team despite me getting such a huge lead, so eventually I moved to a very M-pen centric build that doesn't fall off all that hard lategame and rewards plays made at any stage, but again, it's a style preference. Obviously I try and snowball early as hard as possible anyway. I'll try attack speed reds, for sure. I actually went ahead and made three different pages to test out, so I'll have to test those when I'm feeling up to actually playing this game. Again, my post wasn't really about me, generally if I'm not winning on Elise, I made a play or judgement error, or something just... awful is happening XD (For example, not on Elise, but I had a game where two members of our team were very obviously intentionally feeding with 10+ deaths each, running into five people, etc.) so it's personally not a concern of mine, though I do appreciate the build advice. EDIT: Like I said, I'll definitely be trying a variant of the korean build. If I can shotgun people again with protobelt, pretty worth.
: I'm a 1.13million mastery point Elise. All I have to say is she's completely fine. While her winrate dropped below kindred, kindred has no playrate making their sample pool low (mains struggle with her). Elise on the other hand, she has a really high pick rate right now, 5.46% to be percise on champion.gg. This is healthy for her as elise does have a rather low skill ceiling and a high skill floor, and her winrate while low, reflects her high pick rate (if she had 50% wnrate with 5% pick rate, as an elise main I'd be concerned for nerfs). I wouldn't touch her, she's strong as it is. Just you gotta mix up your playstyle with her and mix up your build pathing. I have tons of success doing a level 3 double buff clear, ganking, and then stacking a dark seal and going full AP from there with boots rush and then proto. --- "But elise has a low winrate even with experienced players compared to kindred" Cause these are die hard kindred one tricks cause nobody else really plays them. Elise is flexible and there are lots of people who don't even main her with 125+ games. You're either god tier with kindred or trash tier with kindred you have to know everything about your opponents. Elise on the other hand can be one of those champions you just lock in cause you feel like it or your team composition really needs her while kindred is a niche pick so chances are you're maining them if you're even picking them. --- Lets be real here, who do you know with 125 ranked games on kindred, with only a month this season? That 89% winrate is probably one guy maybe even smurfing compared to elise being a meta pick and quite a few people having that experience and simultaneously winning and losing. I don't even have 125+ games on her this season and I play everyday lol. --- Want some education? Right now. In Korea: Winrate: 50.43% Pickrate: **24.94%** Banrate: 11.12% (11th) and you wanna buff that? Korea would shit their pants LOL even faker bans her. Also Champion.gg isn't accurate right now, she has around a 7% pick rate in NA, check op.gg for my sources. --- TL;DR: don't buff her, she's strong as it is...
Every time I refresh it seems like the formatting has become nicer on this post, haha. Yeah, geez, the Korean pickrate/winrate seems insane. I will try the build they're going there, since they're still going protobelt and it looks like the preferred build is proto-liandries with a blue smite. It might be an interesting thing to try out, although I do like my red smite, personally. I don't know if I can get on the dark seal train, honestly. My general build at the moment is full AP with red smite, boots rush, haunting guise-Rylai or Haunting- liandry and then Rylai. I've been liking the build a lot. To be honest, I haven't been having personal troubles with Elise myself, my general playstyle on her is still working out. But I am extremely concerned about the upcoming jungle nerfs with camps spawning later and gromp dealing more damage. I'm not sure how big of a change that'll make but I guess I'll just have to see. I do wonder what exactly it is that has Elise that good in Korea, when she's dogshit over here.
MrHaZeYo (NA)
: Buff my spider queen.
Honestly I'd even be happy with a small buff to Runic Echoes at this point.
: I actually had asked about this in paired with Nidalee and got a red response, and the answer was that their was just a small recent buff to Nidalee and she was on the radar, but there were no plans to change Elise. Elise is actually doing fairly well in Korea right now, it's more of a case that NA can't seem to make her work. Personally I wen't back to player her a bunch and she seems fine.
Could you perhaps link said response because I'm looking all over your comment history and cannot find it. Champion.gg currently has Elise at a 46.52% winrate, with data compiled from EUNE, EUW, NA, and Korea. Since I believe EUNE, EUW, and Korea all have larger playerbases than NA at least in plat+ ranked, doesn't it stand to reason that this isn't just an NA problem? I do see the higher than average winrate and pickrate for Elise in Korea. I'd be interested to know why that is. In Korea she has a 3%+ winrate lead over the other three regions that Champion.gg uses. So while Elise might be doing well in Korea, it could also be an outlier. I think Elise SEEMS fine to me as well, but I have almost 300K mastery points on Elise. I doubt she'll ever been in a state where I find her completely unplayable as well.
: She has a tool (Rappel) to avoid turret agro, so she can dive efficiently early game (stun, burst, rappel). She is one of these champion that is hard to balance for Riot, because she is very strong at high elo, and weak at low elo. This is because at high elo, she put a lot of pressure early and can make pro-team snowball. This is not as efficient at low elo, where some early kills don't mean much as it is much more messy. You can look here at the winrate for different elo: http://oce.op.gg/statistics/champion/
Her winrate in Plat+ right now, at least in NA is around 46%.
Rioter Comments
: Which League of legends champion's personality ressemble you the most?
{{champion:131}} : Weird, kinda dry sense of humor. {{champion:60}} : Spidery seductress lady person. {{champion:76}} : Honestly just a big cat pretending to be a human.
: Make Champions Infinitely Scarier with a Non-Broken Change to One Ability.
{{champion:60}} : Rappel (Spider E) resets cooldown on kills/assists (or perhaps just kills.) OR Cocoon (Human E) resets R cooldown (if it hits, obviously!).
: Talking about smite I would prefer a LoL-Version of Izanami. Or is that too close to Kalista? And Serqet {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-rainbows}} her steampunk skin is so great.
Serqet would be great, honestly! Her kit is fantastic. Elise plays slightly similarly but they're still very different.
: Someone either using Kunai, really long reaching fists (If anyone saw the Switch presentation, the characters from ARMS), or sticky bombs that would basically do minor damage on initial hit, then either explode a few seconds later or when detonated by an ability.
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/4751968/kunai-with-chain-o.gif
Ralanr (NA)
: Can the next marksman we get use throwing weapons instead of a gun/bow?
Smite has Xblanque and I'd love to see something like that! I dunno how much another bola-throwing champion overlaps with {{champion:107}} though...
FormationX (EUNE)
: To people saying new Warwick will melt your heart before eating it
Nope. Still pretty cute, in reference for warwick. That photo becomes a lot less scary when you realize the face is just a photoshop of a very surprised cat.
: Yeah, lol. XD Got to experience my first 98 LP pain last night. Looking forward to my B4 promos. I'd like to get Gold this season, but we'll see.
Just play and have fun! Pick up a main champ/role if you can along the way. Those things will stick with you longer than some rank on your profile, it resets every season! Just aim to play and get better! TBH what works for me is to use rank as a metric instead of a goal (Like I can pat myself on the back for getting G5 last season even though being Gold 5 isn't like, amazing, because it's more about the fact that I climbed two divisions than that I'm Gold or anything like that!)
: It's gonna be a long climb out of Bronze 5, but hopefully worth it. Thanks!
Law of large numbers says that as long as you learn at least one thing from each game, you will eventually climb, however slowly, so you can do it for sure! I climbed from B5 to Gold 5 next season and if the placements are as bad as everyone is saying I might be doing it again, haha! Just keep a positive mindset, try not to let it stress you too much, and have fun ^.^
: Sorry, should've been clearer. It's like this game I had last night where the jungler ganked when I had no mana (I did ping that I had 5%) and it went well for what it was, got the flash, jungler took a couple of CS. All good. Less than 2 minutes later they're back, running up from behind tower just as I've got a good freeze going on. Nothing happens, enemy laner doesn't leave, jungler takes some CS and then rushes the enemy laner from the other side of the creep wave. By the time I catch up the enemy laner is under tower and half the minions are dead to each other. Rinse and repeat for the next 10 minutes. I'm fine with a jungler doing something. It's when they just sit in my lane and take CS and then nothing happens. Help me push when the enemy laner has backed not when they are standing in lane. Do something on a gank, don't just meander in and essentially duo lane. I don't know how to address that. I feel like it's a low elo (bronze?) problem and maybe with people new to jungling. I don't want to drive them away altogether or piss them off, but come on.
Yeah that's 100% a bronze issue, unfortunately! It gets better even just a few tiers up though ^.^ (Although holy shit junglers at silver/gold are still absolute potatoes!)
Herim (NA)
: {{champion:12}} {{champion:34}} {{champion:136}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:60}} {{champion:150}} {{champion:120}} {{champion:121}} {{champion:203}} {{champion:240}} {{champion:96}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:76}} {{champion:267}} {{champion:20}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:421}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:107}} {{champion:68}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:102}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:223}} {{champion:17}} {{champion:29}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:19}} {{champion:62}} {{champion:115}} All these in their animal form or their ride companion counts as furry. I'm pretty sure Riot has it covered. Renekton top Nasus mid Warwick Jungle Ziggs "ADC" Volibear support
I feel like Nasus top, Kennen/Teemo/Rumble mid, Warwick Jungle, Alistar Support, and Twitch ADC is probably the best way to do this. Of your list, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't count Sejuani (The boar is just a regular animal, and Sejuani is a human. She's a human riding a boar. That's not "furry".); Skarner, Rek'sai, Anivia, Aurelion, Rammus, Kog'maw, or Cho'gath (None of these are all that anthropomorphic. Rammus I could see, but still kind of a stretch); or Nunu (Same deal as Sej. You could make an argument that the Yeti is an anthro but the Yeti is also a Yeti and besides the apelike appearance, is only about as smart as a gorilla anyway) Isn't Azir pretty much literally someone in a bird costume? Cause in that case he's the realest furry of them all, just being a guy in an animal suit.
: Doesn't it depend on when in the game it is? I'm low, low, low, but I watch a lot of youtube junglers and they never have a problem giving up their buffs after the 1st blue/red one. I'm more interested in learned how to deal with the jungler that won't leave my lane. I don't want to piss him off so he doesn't come back, but I also want my farm.
While wanting your farm is understandable, as a jungle main, I can tell you that at least some of the time a jungler "Won't leave your lane" is because they're trying to maximize on a gank by pushing the wave to turret. Even if this means you miss out on CS, this gives you pressure in the lane, oftentimes gets you a decent amount of damage on turret, and loses your enemy laner a wave or two of CS. I do understand wanting CS and I'm not saying that every jungler who overstays is doing this, or that they're doing it RIGHT, but a lot of people at low elo seem to not realize that when I'm staying after a gank that forced the enemy laner out of lane, EVEN IF I take some CS, they're still getting a larger advantage over their opponent than if I'd just left them to push the wave themselves.
Kazekiba (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=khorney,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tJFevrup,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-11T05:16:42.732+0000) > > as what people told me whne i made the same thing about varus. get good and learn to play better See but Varus is designed as a poke mage + ADC combo and kind of a Bizarro Ezreal. A mage that fights and plays like an ADC (whereas Ez is an ADC/Marksman that plays and fights more like a mage). There's actually a number of those ADC/Mage hybrids come to think of it (Ziggs, Koggles, Corki makes 5.) Elise, on the other hand - Be it one hand or seven others - Was specifically designed for exactly one purpose - To be the Apex Jungler, to be everything a Jungler needs to be. She was designed, from the ground up, to fill one purpose and currently is worse than one of the most infamously nerfed other champions in that role. IMO Elise could do with something like, making her kit actually good to start with but making Rappel specifically vulnerable to turrets while Untargetable by everything else as that has been a major issue with her in the pro scenes. But then tower diving is ALSO a skill Junglers need to be able to do so
I don't think Elise's kit needs any real tweaking as far as the mechanics go. Me, personally, the route I would go with buffing Elise would be either just flat stat buffs, or reverting some of the nerfs (I believe Q damage and Movespeed) that she received back when Runic Echoes was being abused by Udyr. However, I think buffing Runic Echoes could also be a decent buff to her and some other struggling jungle champs right now.
khorney (NA)
: as what people told me whne i made the same thing about varus. get good and learn to play better
Well... hmmm. It's hard to say anything to that when I'm not really talking about my own skill or my own games. The data is coming from Champion.gg, which analyzes plat+ gameplay and while you might be able to make a pretty convincing argument that plat is not what one would consider the highest of mechanical or decision-making skill, this is a rather large drop for a champion that has been in what one might call a healthy state for a rather long period of time. I'm not so much worried about my own games I guess as I am about what it might mean for the jungle, because for a long time, Elise has been a rather healthy pick into a lot of the dominant junglers. She has, or I guess had, a fairly safe matchup into Lee, into Rek'sai, into Gragas, into Kindred/Graves, and into Nidalee. And now she kind of just... doesn't have that anymore? And again, this is late at night and I'd have to probably get you some better data but at least my impression has always been that Elise is that jungler that can have pretty safe matchups into other OP/FOTM/Oppressive junglers without necessarily being *better*/oppressive herself. It may be that it's just a thing where the current FOTM junglers like Vi and Hecarim just have a better jungle matchup into her, I think the nerfs coming up on Lee as well might help bring that back to being an even matchup. Lemme try and rephrase my main point to Riot on this without sounding so much like "gaaah, my champion isn't viable I can NEVER climb out of bronze on her anymore!" or something, because honestly I'm pretty confident that if there are Aatrox mains in high diamond/masters, I can probably make Elise work in Gold/Plat ELO. Riot, are you worried that, with the recent jungle changes, a jungler that has been in a rather healthy state is now looking to be not so much in such a healthy state due to nerfs aimed at the current oppressive set of junglers?
Rioter Comments
: Assassins, Please Consider Playing Support More Often
Just play Thresh if you want excitement ^^
: Riot, add a disclaimer whenever someone picks Mordekaiser
{{champion:203}} : SOmetimes Marks just randomly don't switch over when you click them. Triple click to be sure.
: Skirmishers are carries...
Rioter Comments
: I honestly like her kit a lot, but maybe that's just me
Her kit feels fine to play when it's strong, TBH. Lore concerns aside, I feel like her kit is either fun to play, or bearable to play against, not both. That might just be me though.
: {{champion:60}} {{item:3026}} {{item:3157}} :^)
I haven't gotten to build Zhonya's yet.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: You are absolutely on point, I feel the same. I really want to like Kindred, but their kit is extremely bland and generic. The designer COMPLETELY failed to deliver the "dual champion" gameplay. Moreover, wolf and lamb correspond to two different embodiments of death; this duality is nowhere to be seen in their kit. Wolf feels like a particle. Beside that, Lamb is a generic archer. In short, a total waste of potential. Riot is evidently having trouble in champion kits lately. I thought that bad, toxic designs requiring "olafing" were a thing of the past, but I was wrong. Champions so recent like Azir, Kalista and Yasuo are suffering the same fate as Urgot, Yorick and Poppy. I bet Camille will join them soon enough, mainly due to her ULT generating extremely binary low counterplay interactions. Riot should seriously consider putting more effort in crafting healthy kits with good synergy and thematic cohesion.
What you bring up is another good point about Lamb feeling like a "generic archer". So, what is Kindred, based more off their silhouette than anything else. Fast one with a bow and animal companion. Kindred is the archetype we know and love as a hunter/ranger, like in WoW or GW2, and yet NONE of that makes it into her kit. She's literally a ranger, and yet she plays nothing like one.
: Are we just going to leave Kindred in the dumpster?
Away from a gameplay standpoint, too, Wolf features so fucking little in Kindred's kit it's sad. Annie/Tibbers or Daisy/Ivern feel like more of dual champions or even just Daisy/Tibbs feel like more of characters than Wolf does. Hell, Yorick's Maiden talks to him (AKA is part of his VO) and again, feels like it does more. Why do my Spiderlings on Elise, or my Voidlings on Malzh feel more like their own characters than Wolf? At best, Wolf feels like the little devourer spirit wolf that used to follow you around and nip people's heels when you chased them. At worst, he just feels like some sort of projectile ability. I use "She" when talking about them, because c'mon, we all know I'm talking about Lamb. If Elise's spiderlings or Ivern's Daisy don't count as a "they" when talking about the champion, I hardly see why Wolf should. Going back to Kindred's kit. It is incredibly incoherent and kind of themeless, and lends itself to bland gameplay in the current iteration, unless, of course, it's made incredibly strong. Why doesn't her Q proc her E? Sure, her W and Q are technically synergistic since W lowers Q cooldown, but what do they really DO together? She's got kind of a theme of fighting in one area she marks as her own, but even that is pretty loose. She's got a series of 4 cool abilities that only marginally synergize well with each other and kind of honestly feel slapped together with not a whole real lot of thought to how they work in unison, and then she's got a passive that's either too punishing to her when she's not in a strong state (Right now it's feelsbad because your early is honestly not the best for taking early marks. And the freaking 8 second mark timer.) or feels bad on your opponent's part when she is strong (Not only can this champion duel me level 3 and possibly kill me, she'll inherently scale for lategame by duelling me and counterjungling me.) Honestly I kind of expect her to go the way of someone like Yorick. She'll be forgotten or pushed off for years only to finally receive a rework after she's become a meme. (and I do think she's up for becoming the next "bad champion meme" after Aatrox gets updated.) Look, I might sound harsh about Kindred, but it's only because I LOVE the lore of this champion. I LOVED how they teased her, I LOVED the story they put out, I LOVED the idea of the choice between Lamb's Arrow or Wolf's Teeth. I LOVED the idea of a dual champion, AND of a marksman jungler. Not to mention the visual design, and how much personality lamb and wolf both have. I'm so harsh about Kindred's design because I WANT TO LIKE PLAYING THIS CHAMPION. But just... she feels bad to play, and probably felt bad to play against when she was strong. Her kit is trash wrapped in that shiny lore and visual design paper.
: I think the buff should come in the form of a slightly stronger early game and toning down their late game. Kindred feels very lackluster early. Maybe they could reduce the mana cost of q early.
You need to tweak the numbers, but Kindred should have the passive system Rengar got in his rework (whether you wanna give Rengar the marking system Kindred has or not, I dunno. I will say I think he'd be a lot better at getting marks.) that way her passive is capped (When you kill 5 different people) but is still allowed to feel strong and isn't so much of a minigame where to be marginally anywhere close to "strong" you have to not only get kills, but get kills on the right people. Kindred is forced to double up on her snowball, meaning getting fed on kindred is not enough, you have to also take marks.
: Exactly this. The dev post did put a tad too much emphasis on the complexity of the Smite rewards, but the real problem was that it had no real depth. It took only a little while for players to figure out which jungle route was optimal in every case for whichever champion, which meant junglers ended up with little real choice or variety, and none of the buffs really gave junglers more options afterwards. To newer players, it just added an additional burden of information, but once you got past that hurdle, it didn't really unlock any spectacularly interesting gameplay. The new jungle could definitely use some improvements, but I don't think there's any reason to bring back Smite rewards anymore.
Plants are just more pointless complexity, haha.
Jon1174 (NA)
: A Message to Camille
{{champion:60}} can rappel it for half the duration, and comes down with the rappel buff for the second half. :3
: Void Born Support
I actually have an idea for a Voidborn support. I might post it here later.
Veltox (NA)
: Its weird if i don't hate him at all?Even when i play stuff like {{champion:4}} against him i'm not raging like a crybaby. Its just my opinion even if you consider it biased but there are worse champions design wise like {{champion:67}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:23}} {{champion:429}} {{champion:43}}{{champion:39}} . Before jumping on 'YOU FILTHY BRONZE GIT GUD' train tell me how they are fine first.
Trynd is pretty much a splitpusher who doesn't have a ton going for him besides duelling and splitpushing, he's essentially a damage stick with one "get out of jail free" card that's countered by any form of CC. Fiora's similar, but take away the "countered by any form of CC" part. Irelia spikes at Tri but has a weak laning phase before that if her enemy toplaner knows how to punish, and this can put her behind for a good bit. While she does have Q and ult, her waveclear is actually somewhat subpar. Riven and Kalista both suffer from, when they're good, being a bit too mobile for their stats. Vayne got buffed by the stealth changes but I think that's getting addressed. Vayne's laning and teamfight is actually bad, or is supposed to be bad when she's not overtuned like she has bee. She acts more like an assassin or a duelist, honestly. Karma has a good amount of peel, but it's somewhat conditional peel. I'll agree with you that while I like certain champions on this list, a few of them are probably not all that well designed. That said, I think a few of them are honestly in the opposite direction of OP, like Trynd who's literally just a big stat stick, completely one dimensional. If their team knows how to deal with your splitpush, well you're fucked. If not, then you're probably good.
Phridolin (EUW)
: 1350 + Trundle/Cassio Skins (?)
A prehistoric trundle would be cool! As would a Void Tyrant Cassio. I like the Dragon Princess cassio concept that was floating around awhile back. I always wanted her to get a Celestial skin too because Cassiopeia is a constellation. I had an idea for an ultimate skin back when Cass had her old passive. She'd be a Goddess or Spirit of some kind and have two ghost-snakes that orbited her as she gained stacks (She already had this visual indicator, actually.), and they would gain voicelines as she got more stacks.
: Not all champs need a rework, some champs just need a visual update....
I'm not gonna lie, I'd play a lot more of Shaco if he got a visual update. (I still don't really like the clown thing, I'm more of a fan of predators/hunters/monsters like Elise, Kha'zix, Kindred myself, but I'd take it.)
Rákãñ (NA)
: Now, if only I get to see more of those people in ranked. I'd be more happy. I just get people that rather salt/tilt the all chat over playing the game on trying to report their teammates for being bad. -.-
I've actually had a lot of good teammates in ranked. It comes in waves, of course. A lot of people who've realized what I'm trying to do and enable me to do it, or who I do the same to. Works out.
: When Summoner's Rift was updated a bunch of us got together when Baron spawned to fight him together. He got a double penta.
Oh god, that sounds awesome.
Kr1sys (NA)
: Riot needs to stop ignoring Shaco and addressing only him via the nerf bat
I'm not a huge fan of playing vs Shaco but at the same time a lot of the stuff people get mad at Shaco about is relatively easy to avoid if you're smart and adapt, and even then, as you said, his midgame isn't the greatest. I've found the CONCEPT of Shaco interesting, as a jungle main myself, but I don't know if I'd ever touch the champion, especially with the nerfs and update. His aesthetic doesn't really appeal to me (Yes, I get it, people like killer clowns for some reason but I'm not even that huge of a fan of the Joker or other takes the on the concept, and I'm not a huge fan of it here), I like the kit on a base level but it feels rather weak because of, honestly, kind of abysmal clears. I wish they would actually take a look at Shaco and just... do something with him? Maybe Shaco mains will disagree with me, they probably will, but I feel like his age as a champion really shows.
Ralanr (NA)
: I usually want to build that but triforce takes so damn long to build.
Not that long if you farm well and snowball :3 Also, Sheen is a massive powerspike.
Ralanr (NA)
: I need to learn Vi now. Now if only my team didn't need a CC tank so I could rush the damn triforce!
COC with warrior, Triforce, into tank.
: Name THREE champions that if you could, would delete. For any reason possible.
{{champion:13}} : fairly safe laning phase for such a heavy scaler. Point and click CC, a shield that is much bigger than necessary. Already reworked twice, that should tell you something. {{champion:20}} : He's pretty boring as far as jungler go. And his main playstyle is generally being a nuisance. His ult is the definition of feelsbad, for him or for the enemy team if he's smart enough to bush-cheese (or Ryze delivery) with it. His entire kit promotes a pretty unhealthy style of gameplay that, aside from when he's overtuned, makes him pretty goddamn useless unless he can render his opponent so instead. {{champion:35}} : Everything about this guy just screams "unfun" and everything about him delivers in spades.
: {{champion:67}} {{champion:76}} {{champion:64}} Favorite lovechilds of Riot, always getting preferential treatment in buffs and nerfs because they are big $$$ for Riot at professional level.
Yet Vayne hasn't been viable at all this season... I'm not sure about much of last season either, but I certainly never saw her at worlds. Lee, okay, though he WAS out of the meta for a good part of this season. Nidalee is currently sitting with the loweest plat+ solo Q winrate, or at least one of the lowest, a few days ago when I checked. Not sure about pro. EDIT: Should mention I'm literally only talking about pro play for all of these except Nid (Where I don't have any pro data except streams or soloQ winrates, because the preseason patch hadn't hit yet, which hurt her hard, the last time anything competitive was happening that I watched.) since your argument was these champions make money at that level.
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Abyssal Lolth

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