: Plz stop rubbing my nose in being bad... im trying.
You can add me too. I too can't process too much at once and learned to compensate by substituting reaction with prediction. I main jungle and can share how I place vision to keep track of the map in the early/mid game and predict the flow.
: Conqueror is busted
Press the Attack is actually stronger in bursty or teamfight situations because Press the Attack does adaptive damage after 3 autos and then increases damage taken from all sources by 12%. In a 1v1 situation, Conqueror will be stronger on anyone who has strong extended trades or all-ins. The difference makes Press the Attack a strong contender for any player that isn't explicitly only trying to boost their personal damage. As for Fleet Footwork, I would only take it if I wanted the movement speed buff. It's not that great for healing at all. I also disagree with the notion that Conqueror is superior to even most other runes in the game, as not even most of the roster can synergize with it. The most common class that can would probably be marksmen who like attack speed, followed by dps mages and melee carries. I don't think it's going to be nearly as great for bruisers anymore with some exceptions for the ones that like {{item:3078}} or {{item:3161}}.
: playing without chatbox is good
If you type /mute all, you can see timestamp pings for map objectives and summoners though. But if you feel that you can't resist the impulse, then it's better to work around the issue the way you are.
: I despise Riot's obsession with saving essence flare
Essence flare is such an obviously unhealthy mechanic. But things being obviously unhealthy hasn't stopped things like the Rengar and Leblanc reverts. Or the burst meta in general.
Nairoval (NA)
: Can anyone explain how viable Veigar is anymore?
> [{quoted}](name=Nairoval,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fBTNGzAI,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-01-25T04:06:16.662+0000) > >His stun can be easily dodged and **or traveled through or moved over**. Woah there bud. I think your knowledge is a bit outdated.
: It's funny. All that needed to happen was give lanes more vision early. You didn't have to change jungle whatsoever. Giving everyone ONE EXTRA WARD at spawn that lasts 1 minute longer and is a one time use item would have cured multiple issues and been easy to remove or tune if it was OP. Benefits: -People see Level 2 ganks coming better -Players are still responsible for being aware, so Riot is absolved if people don't use the tool
I love it. They nerfed ward duration by a minute, then nerfed jungle xp, so everyone starts picking early game duelists and and gankers and focus on lane pressure. Naturally Rito wants to double down. If they want junglers to be less present early, they need to nerf early game exp, buff exp scaling so that they level up at the same rate as laners, and buff the gold enough so that ganking isn't automatically the best choice. Or alternatively, buff jungle timers so you can farm more often.
: Today I'm going to see if Sion cleans the jungle well. I rely on the good judgment of Meddler and the balancing team to realize the problem. https://i.imgur.com/xH7SRUQ.png?nodirect
Cho also works. You also get the bonus of having nunu-level objective control when your ult is up. But both he and Sion work because you have the benefit of getting a lot of free hp, allowing you to build more resists.
: > [{quoted}](name=Acanthus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AxRZfJy9,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-11-26T00:41:45.491+0000) > > In the early seasons of league, carries often built 1-2 pure defensive items. 2 items that were commonly in those slots {{item:3026}}{{item:3102}} were reworked into hybrid items with a specific damage type (ad or ap). Other situational pick items like {{item:4401}}{{item:3075}} were removed or drastically altered to not function anywhere near like what it was. Furthermore, offensive passives and stats involving penetration have seen marked improvements, buffs, or greater presence, more burst items have been introduced into the game {{item:3285}}{{item:3147}}{{item:3095}}, and defensive options have generally been made worse over time to ensure that "offense eventually overcomes defense" while tanks were given greater offense and cc to compensate. All these factors combined lead to a situation where offense is superior to defense in every stage of the game and safety feels non-existent. It is worth noting that even in the beginning of League of Legends, Offense > Defense was the rule. The thing was that the efficiency of finished items allowed full tanks to function and resists had enough value to be very potent in the early game. Its important for game health for there to be more damage than defense. I think the issue is less to due with stat efficiency and more when Riot concluded health was a better metric of tankiness than resists. Resists pretty much made up for the Offense > Defense thing mostly in the early game since it'd multiply your effective health. Defense items have been cutting resists and adding health for years, so you're effectively multiplying damage in the gamestate that way without even considering the fact Riot has added an assload of damage in S8 especially.
> [{quoted}](name=TwitchInMyPants,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AxRZfJy9,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2018-11-26T03:47:43.378+0000) > > It is worth noting that even in the beginning of League of Legends, Offense > Defense was the rule. The thing was that the efficiency of finished items allowed full tanks to function and resists had enough value to be very potent in the early game. Its important for game health for there to be more damage than defense. We're in agreement here. > I think the issue is less to due with stat efficiency and more when Riot concluded health was a better metric of tankiness than resists. Resists pretty much made up for the Offense > Defense thing mostly in the early game since it'd multiply your effective health. Defense items have been cutting resists and adding health for years, so you're effectively multiplying damage in the gamestate that way without even considering the fact Riot has added an assload of damage in S8 especially. That's a pretty good point actually. I hadn't thought about that factor.
: > GA and Banshees are now Hybrid Defense-Offense items Yeah, but look how many AP items have less AP than they used to have, or AD items as well compared to previous iterations of those items. When you look at those individual changes, you don't look at the surrounding items in that time period as well. Or more importantly, the very same items that also existed which fulfilled the same role: Old Abyssal Scepter, Zhonyas were both good MR and Armor items with a solid Chunk of Offense and defense attached to them in the past. AD items used to have more AD than today. They've simply been moved. > Buffs, Penetration, greater presence, or more "moar damage" items. Once again, these have always existed in one form or another. Before Ludens became a mana item, it once had much higher AP along with it's damage. Before we had Ludens, we had DFG. Stormrazor stepped in to fill the Void of the Old IE, another huge damage booster in it's previous iterations. Duskblade was added, along with Lethality itself, so they could balance assassins on their own items as opposed to them being effected by general Fighter Item nerfs (Like old Zed used to run BoRK and Cleaver, more bonus damage from outside the kit). There has always been different iterations of these types of items. People just don't see the whole picture when looking at the past. What's the difference between Zed hitting an Auto with Duskblade, than Zed using the Active on Bork or Hydra? Very little to none. The bigger difference, is that Lethality items have less AD than ADC type items, because they're meant to function off that Penetration, to guide them towards squishier targets. While I agree that Offense should eventually overscale defense, otherwise things slog onto for way to long, there is certainly a middleground. You actively forget Mid-game, where tanks are the best because of the better Scaling of damage, but that doesn't fit the narrative.
It doesn't matter that they have less ap then they used to have or less ad because their multipliers (crit chance, attack speed, pen; deathcap + scaling passives on items and pen) have gone up with time 100% crit chance didn't used to be a thing, level 2 or 3 100-0 wasn't a regular thing. Moreover, hp on ap items and general defensive items have decreased in usefulness. This is how the one-shot meta can exist. The old abyssal scepter still exists in a different form of {{item:3001}}. They changed this item to share the eternity passive with {{item:3027}}, took out the ap, and added hp/mana, which did 2 things: It ensured that mages wouldn't buy this item, and it ensured that it was undesirable for bruisers that want RoA. This is part of the overall trend of pushing things in a more offensive direction. Before ludens was a mana item, it was a movespeed item instead of a cdr item. The change makes the holder less safe and able to do damage more often instead of bigger bursts. The old IE didn't add to the system of armor pen and the new one does. Moreover, in the old system 25% + 35% was the most common crit chance, now the expectation is to reach 100% Lethality always existed except it was called armor pen and had lower values to make up for the fact that it didn't scale with level (so as to be weaker early). And old Zed would have less ad overall in that old build (I believe it would have been 25 + 60 and less pen if I remember correctly) AND old zed didn't get permanent flat ad from his ult, he had %ad increase on his w that scaled with rank, which he always leveled last. Zed is a great example of power creep (especially in the early game) because of this, so I am definitely aware of the whole picture. And guiding assassins toward assassinating full health squishy targets isn't a healthy playstyle for the overall game in the first place. What about mid game? In the present, the midgame is about the team that's snowballing to deathball push or split push and take as many turrets and inhibs as possible to keep the snowball rolling. If the team that's behind does this better somehow, they get theirs rolling instead, and the game stalls while they keep grabbing barons to try and final push, or if ahead, they just kill them off while pushing with baron. In the past, there were less mechanics to snowball. Baron didn't empower minions, they empowered you temporarily, putting the onus on you to perform well with an advantage instead of being able to mostly stand there and let the minions do most of the work until the enemy team is forced to engage on you. Dragon didn't empower you outside of gold gained. Games often stalled out in the midgame depending on composition (where tanks, siege comps, and mage wave clear were major factors). As far as I'm concerned, league today is a different game with some similarities played on the same map.
: Do you have any actual proof proving that damage has gone up? Because once again, i'd care to remind you, that Riot believes that overall damage has remained the same, the problem is *Upfront* damage, which is what they've nerfed before in Preseason, and have again in the form of Armor/MR runes. Many will say "Yeah, but, they added in more damage in runes too", well counter that with the fact that we already had damage in runes, but now we get a base Defense slot as well.
In the early seasons of league, carries often built 1-2 pure defensive items. 2 items that were commonly in those slots {{item:3026}}{{item:3102}} were reworked into hybrid items with a specific damage type (ad or ap). Other situational pick items like {{item:4401}}{{item:3075}} were removed or drastically altered to not function anywhere near like what it was. Furthermore, offensive passives and stats involving penetration have seen marked improvements, buffs, or greater presence, more burst items have been introduced into the game {{item:3285}}{{item:3147}}{{item:3095}}, and defensive options have generally been made worse over time to ensure that "offense eventually overcomes defense" while tanks were given greater offense and cc to compensate. All these factors combined lead to a situation where offense is superior to defense in every stage of the game and safety feels non-existent.
: It's been months Riot, why the actual fuck hasn't Irelia received a nerf yet????
I started a thread about why she was unfair and how to make her fair, but it wasn't popular with the boards, although I've never been able to get a discussion involving stats going on the boards. > Give her the Kayn (shadow assassin) treatment. > > ~~Passive: IONIAN FERVOR: Irelia's basic attacks deal 4 − 17 (based on level) (+ 4% bonus AD) Ability power bonus magic damage per stack, up to 16 − 68 (based on level) (+ 16% bonus AD). At maximum stacks, Irelia gains 30% / 40% / 50% bonus attack speed and deals an additional 32 − 136 (based on level) (+ 32% bonus AD) magic damage against Hybrid resistances icon shields.~~ > > Passive: IONIAN FERVOR: Irelia's basic attacks deal 5% / 10% / 15% / 20% of post-mitigation damage dealt against enemy units as bonus magic damage per stack. At maximum stacks, Irelia gains 30% / 40% / 50% bonus attack speed and deals an additional 40% of post-mitigation damage dealt against enemy **champions** as bonus magic damage. > > Irelia deals too much hybrid damage to effectively itemize against. This makes armor her clear stat to use against her. Removed flat damage. Bad idea. Tweak numbers as needed. > > ~~BLADESURGE: HEAL: 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 20% AD~~ > Irelia needs to pay for sustain now. > > Done. Her insane damage and her waveclear were both just hit by virtue of being mitigatable by one stat. She needs to buy lifesteal or take ravenous hunter and armor pen if she wants to reach her previous levels of damage/sustain, which would make her squishier.
: Hahahahaha Jg changes
I don't know about you, but I compensated by picking, if not dueling champions, strong clearing junglers and would look for opportunities to take lane cs when either my mid roams and I'm not able to join in or someone going back, or someone able to split push so that later I'm taking both a lane and jungle.
Pika Fox (NA)
: Defensive arent inferior. If youre against someone with more range, you likely wont get much offense off yourself and will need to survive. Paper value =/= realistic value.
The reason why the offensive stats have more value are because: 1. Their values are actually stronger than the defensive ones; I forget the specifics, but you need something like 12 armor to negate 6 ad, for example. Also, the offensive stats have a better scaling throughout the game, so they're stronger early and late game. 2. All keystones, except for grasp, guardian, phase rush, and inspiration keystones, have offensive scalings or usages, and runes in general tend to favor aggressive playstyles, which in turn creates a bias for offensive stats. 3. In the event that you're against someone with more range, you're either 2 offensive champions against one another, in which case, you're not going to get much value off of 5 armor/6 mr in place of 6 ad/10 ap, or you're toplane, in which case the ranged person is going to bully the melee no matter what and no stat will help against that. Bot lane has 2v2 mechanics that make the carry taking offense most optimal. 4. When speaking specifically about these shard stats, the math shows that they do very little for increasing your effective hp at any stage of the game unless you're going full tank in the jungle (and even that is because there isn't a better choice). Anything bruiser or carry would be better served by taking offense over defense, and in the third row, everyone should take the scaling hp in every circumstance with the current math.
: The health shard is a complete joke.
I'll just drop this here. > Just so you know, mathematically, the hp per level is superior by far to the other choices in that slot. I was talking about this in another thread I started before, but no one cared. > > To those that don't know, armor and mr essentially increase your effective health by 1% per 1 point. Since I'm thinking about this primarily from a solo tank/bruiser perspective. If I'm Naut, who starts with 576 hp and 35 armor, my effective hp against physical damage is about 778. If I was to add 5 armor to that, it would be an effective hp of about 806, which is a 28 hp difference. And Naut has a decently sized hp pool. > > For the third row, I also have a serious problem with the hp choice vs armor or mr. For starters, the hp choice works against everything. It also increases the usefulness of your starting armor and mr. In the Naut example, it would add 20 effective hp against physical damage at level 1 with his starting armor, and it scales up. There is literally no reason to ever pick the 5 armor or 6 magic resist because you gain another 88 effective hp throughout the game against physical damage from just that before even considering level up armor or bought items. With his max level up armor the scaling hp shard actually gives him 179 effective hp against physical damage. The direct comparison would be 5 armor increasing his level 18 effective base hp by 101. While you can get more out of the stat if you're buying large pools of hp, you're obviously going to more easily get more out of the other stats unless you have a special scaling like Rammus/Malphite or if you're Cho/Sion, who can infinitely stack hp.
: The defense rune stat path has another "fake" choice, as usual with health runes
So many people have mistakenly said this that I no longer feel the desire to do anything but copy/paste a shortened previous reply of mine now. > Just so you know, mathematically, the hp per level is superior by far to the other choices in that slot. I was talking about this in another thread I started before, but no one cared. > > To those that don't know, armor and mr essentially increase your effective health by 1% per 1 point. Since I'm thinking about this primarily from a solo tank/bruiser perspective. If I'm Naut, who starts with 576 hp and 35 armor, my effective hp against physical damage is about 778. If I was to add 5 armor to that, it would be an effective hp of about 806, which is a 28 hp difference. And Naut has a decently sized hp pool. > > For the third row, I also have a serious problem with the hp choice vs armor or mr. For starters, the hp choice works against everything. It also increases the usefulness of your starting armor and mr. In the Naut example, it would add 20 effective hp against physical damage at level 1 with his starting armor, and it scales up. There is literally no reason to ever pick the 5 armor or 6 magic resist because you gain another 88 effective hp throughout the game against physical damage from just that before even considering level up armor or bought items. With his max level up armor the scaling hp shard actually gives him 179 effective hp against physical damage. The direct comparison would be 5 armor increasing his level 18 effective base hp by 101. While you can get more out of the stat if you're buying large pools of hp, you're obviously going to more easily get more out of the other stats unless you have a special scaling like Rammus/Malphite or if you're Cho/Sion, who can infinitely stack hp. The defensive choices are inferior compared to offensive ones at every stage of the game though.
: Nobody will take the hp per level setup in the runes stats.....
Just so you know, mathematically, the hp per level is superior by far to the other choices in that slot. I was talking about this in another thread I started before, but no one cared. Here: > To those that don't know, armor and mr essentially increase your effective health by 1% per 1 point. Since I'm thinking about this primarily from a solo tank/bruiser perspective. If I'm Naut, who starts with 576 hp and 35 armor, my effective hp against physical damage is about 778. If I was to add 5 armor to that, it would be an effective hp of about 806, which is a 28 hp difference. And Naut has a decently sized hp pool. > > For the third row, I also have a serious problem with the hp choice vs armor or mr. For starters, the hp choice works against everything. It also increases the usefulness of your starting armor and mr. In the Naut example, it would add 20 effective hp against physical damage at level 1 with his starting armor, and it scales up. There is literally no reason to ever pick the 5 armor or 6 magic resist because you gain another 88 effective hp throughout the game against physical damage from just that before even considering level up armor or bought items. With his max level up armor the scaling hp shard actually gives him 179 effective hp against physical damage. The direct comparison would be 5 armor increasing his level 18 effective base hp by 101. While you can get more out of the stat if you're buying large pools of hp, you're obviously going to more easily get more out of the other stats unless you have a special scaling like Rammus/Malphite or if you're Cho/Sion, who can infinitely stack hp.
: > [{quoted}](name=Acanthus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8MhAhJAQ,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-18T19:46:37.140+0000) > > I did not propose that. Not even once. I propose the passives scale with armor/mr depending on which passive we're talking about. you proposed to do nothing of value to the items except making them be useless or broken that is it
Taking less damage from crits if you did nothing but invest in defense or repeated hits of the same spells is broken? Okay.
: > [{quoted}](name=Acanthus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8MhAhJAQ,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-18T19:40:59.167+0000) > > They were nerfed exactly because they were good for more than tanks, making them crap for tanks also, so what do I propose? A way around it. Why is that hard to understand? and by doing a way around it you just mean "let's increase the price of stuff and add a useless stat that can still be abused by every single champion that builds this items regardless"... how is adding a defensive stat scaling going to prevent bruisers and juggernauts from abusing the items more than tanks? they do build those exact same defensive items and they all build quite a bit of resistances. So you either are going to do nothing or make it so broken that everyone is just going to build massive resistances and HP
I did not propose that. Not even once. I propose the passives scale with armor/mr depending on which passive we're talking about.
GigglesO (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Acanthus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8MhAhJAQ,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-18T17:22:20.597+0000) > > Most of them really pick up those items because they offer damage plus hp and steraks gives you a shield that scales with hp in addition to ad. They're not really good defensively unless you innately have some defensive abilities on your kit like Jax, Irelia, Sion, etc. > Deadman's is pretty strong because it offers movement speed and (crittable) bonus damage and a slow on the first hit. Spirit visage is good on anyone bruiser-y with innate sustain like warwick or rhaast, for example. Sunfire cape though, yeah, it's kinda outdated. And so you basically just agreed tank items are shit... buffing them only for tanks makes for a balance issue like we have now.
They were nerfed exactly because they were good for more than tanks, making them crap for tanks also, so what do I propose? A way around it. Why is that hard to understand?
: > [{quoted}](name=Acanthus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8MhAhJAQ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-11-18T16:04:48.381+0000) > > This thread is in response to a completely different problem though. Tank items have been repeatedly nerfed because bruisers would typically pick them up and use them better than tanks when those items were strong. The result of that repeated reflex is that tank items are no longer gold efficient. how do you propose to keep them effective on juggernauts then? these champions are supposed to scale with the same items. theyre balanced around building like one or two ad/health items and then into defense.
Juggernauts already effectively have their own very useful items though? Moreover, there's a class of defensive stat items that are more useful on juggernauts than tanks, like {{item:3742}} {{item:3025}} and stuff like those.
: > [{quoted}](name=Escheton,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HFOssg6d,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2018-11-18T17:19:41.184+0000) > > I get that Garen doesn't have a shield or hard cc. But Font of Life works great for teamfights for those that do. > And most toplaners have either shields or cc. its not just garen. its almost every single fighter who would want to opt into resolve (how many of them actually have shields compared to those who dont), and even a bunch of tanks like {{champion:154}} {{champion:516}} after they removed his shield. and no one wants or picks font of life on a fighter. its a waste of a rune.
Literally the only reason I can fathom to pick font of life is if you want to play someone who can use {{item:3174}} well and want to be supporty instead of a carry.
GigglesO (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Acanthus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8MhAhJAQ,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-18T17:03:26.637+0000) > > We're in agreement on that, but that's not the direction they decided on regarding tank items. That said though, there are good single item pickups like {{item:3742}} or {{item:3068}} or {{item:3001}} or {{item:3065}}. Except for abyssal mask that increases damage those items are pretty hard to justify as item pickups unless you are a devoted tank or have some really specific reason to pick them up. That’s why most bruisers just pick up cleaver stereks titanic
Most of them really pick up those items because they offer damage plus hp and steraks gives you a shield that scales with hp in addition to ad. They're not really good defensively unless you innately have some defensive abilities on your kit like Jax, Irelia, Sion, etc. Deadman's is pretty strong because it offers movement speed and (crittable) bonus damage and a slow on the first hit. Spirit visage is good on anyone bruiser-y with innate sustain like warwick or rhaast, for example. Sunfire cape though, yeah, it's kinda outdated.
GigglesO (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Acanthus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8MhAhJAQ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-11-18T16:04:48.381+0000) > > This thread is in response to a completely different problem though. Tank items have been repeatedly nerfed because bruisers would typically pick them up and use them better than tanks when those items were strong. The result of that repeated reflex is that tank items are no longer gold efficient. Except that they should have just nerfed the outlying bruisers building those defense items so that other classes could still get single item pickups that have a meaningful trade off. If we don’t allow single item pickups on non-tanks we just keep promoting the high damage meta we have now.
We're in agreement on that, but that's not the direction they decided on regarding tank items. That said though, there are good single item pickups like {{item:3742}} or {{item:3068}} or {{item:3001}} or {{item:3065}}.
GigglesO (NA)
: Too bad hat isn’t what we want at all so we can reduce overall game damage. We want better tank items so everyone can pick them up followed by tank needs because they would be op af if we buffed defense.
This thread is in response to a completely different problem though. Tank items have been repeatedly nerfed because bruisers would typically pick them up and use them better than tanks when those items were strong. The result of that repeated reflex is that tank items are no longer gold efficient.
Rioter Comments
: You're missing the difference between primary stats and scaling stats. AD, AP and HP are primary stats - they are stats that directly influence a champion's general offensive and defensive qualities. AS, CdR, Armor and MR are scaling stats - they increase the effectiveness of the primary stats, but require a certain amount of primary stats to be truely effective. Take attack speed as an example. As a champion which does not have increased AS benefits (for instance, through on-hit effects), it is better to increase AD than AS at the start of the game. The reason is that low amounts of AS do not make much of a difference in lane - most of the time, only having increased AS from stat bonuses does not mean that you get more attacks in during a short lane trade - and thus, it is better to make the attacks you make hit harder. In the same manner, increasing AD makes you last-hit more reliably, whereas AS does nothing for last-hitting. Also, concerning the trade between Resistances and offensive stats in slot 2: Yes, 10 AP or 6 AD are giving more damage at level 1 than the given amount of resistance will negate. However, once base damages and AD/AP are increased through levels and items, 10 AP/6 AD will mean much less. > [{quoted}](name=ProfDrDeath,realm=EUW,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=hAV8MAVr,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-10-30T21:47:33.849+0000) > > It is not even necessary to tweak these stats. The numbers are set up in the current way due to the fact that AD/AP are primary, additive stats, which HP would also be. In contrast, both Armor and MR are multiplicative stats. As such, despite having roughly have the gold value, 6 MR are in fact worth much more than 10 AP. > On top, and this is especially important for AP, abilities have base damages. > > Add Xerath's other sources of AP (+10 from slot 1, +15 from Doran's Ring) to OP's numbers: > Against 25 AP Xerath (98.75 Q damage), Morde takes **74.8** / 71.6 damage (95.7%). > Against 35 AP Xerath (106.25 Q damage), Morde takes 80.5 / **77.0** damage (95.7%). > Bold are the numbers that would correspond to OP's two figures. > > However, what about level 5? Level 5 Morde has 36 MR, or 42 with an additional 6. Xerath's Q at rank 3 has 160 base damage. > Against 25 AP Xerath (178.75 Q damage), Morde takes **131.4** / 125.9 damage (95.8%). > Against 35 AP Xerath (186.25 Q damage), Morde takes 136.9 / **131.2** damage (95.8%). > Oh, look, Morde takes less damage in the cases with both bonuses than in the case without both bonuses. > > The effect only scales up from there.
> [{quoted}](name=ProfDrDeath,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rksEe8qP,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-18T14:28:18.034+0000) > > You're missing the difference between primary stats and scaling stats. > > AD, AP and HP are primary stats - they are stats that directly influence a champion's general offensive and defensive qualities. > AS, CdR, Armor and MR are scaling stats - they increase the effectiveness of the primary stats, but require a certain amount of primary stats to be truely effective. > > Take attack speed as an example. As a champion which does not have increased AS benefits (for instance, through on-hit effects), it is better to increase AD than AS at the start of the game. The reason is that low amounts of AS do not make much of a difference in lane - most of the time, only having increased AS from stat bonuses does not mean that you get more attacks in during a short lane trade - and thus, it is better to make the attacks you make hit harder. > In the same manner, increasing AD makes you last-hit more reliably, whereas AS does nothing for last-hitting. > > Also, concerning the trade between Resistances and offensive stats in slot 2: > > Yes, 10 AP or 6 AD are giving more damage at level 1 than the given amount of resistance will negate. However, once base damages and AD/AP are increased through levels and items, 10 AP/6 AD will mean much less. Well reasoned argument for the most part. Regarding scaling stats, you're not really disagreeing with the premise that they're unequal, but arguing that they're meant for later on in the game while simultaneously stating that the primary stat increase will matter less later, correct? I have to disagree that the primary stat increase will matter less. In the case of ad, attack speed, crit, and penetration combined make any increase in ad very significant relative to any increase in armor and hp. If you have 100% crit chance and attack twice per second that's 48 additional damage per second from just that 12 ad. 10 of that will be true damage from IE in that scenario. By contrast, that 5-10 armor will become less effective with time due to offensive passives and stats being far stronger than defensive ones by design and because defensive items are less gold/slot efficient stat-wise, which is also by design. Moreover, there are actually more offensive stats in the game than defensive ones, so if defensive stats are multiplicative, offensive stats are quadratic when taken together. You need more armor/mr in the early game to make up for that fact.
Acanthus (NA)
: Rune stat shards: Defensive choices aren't great choices (Warning: Math)
Forgot to say, but if anyone has a doubt that 12 ad or 20 ap won't get you much more, you pick a champion, I'll pick the rune, and I'll math out for you how much more you'll get out of it in a typical trade or plausible rotation (in the event I don't play that champion) for that champion.
Rioter Comments
Gilgayu (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Acanthus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NwleAbtd,comment-id=00260000,timestamp=2018-11-03T23:41:46.843+0000) > > I'm somewhat surprised you get away with no armor. Sometimes I swap the abyssel mask for deadman's plate... but to be honest my build can let you solo adc (but not vayne, kaisa, or lucian, who kites all days and deal so much dmg) and it melts down tanks. Try it (not in ranked), and you will know the hidden power of amumu and liandrys lol
Oh, I believe it. A long time ago (we're talking years), I used to play Amumu. I kinda stopped for the same reason I stopped playing Naut; they're just simply outshined by newer kits, although there's nothing actually wrong with them.
: No way, a game company wants profits and money off of their game? How dare they
I wasn't criticizing the company. I was criticizing the unhappy players that nonetheless pay into the game and watch worlds when they hate what the company is doing because of pro play.
: I don't care. It still is. The point of Irelia is Q. There's no mixed damage there.
Yes there is. It applies her on-hit passive. {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}}
: Armor is effective against her...
She has ad scaling magic damage that goes up to 204 flat +48% Total AD per auto Edit: Derped my math
: You know, the last nerf already knocked a good deal of power off the champion. Slow down, Leroy.
I'm not opposed to increasing the numbers to keep her viable. The idea is just to allow armor to be useful against her. She stays as effective against squishy or hp stacking champs.
Acanthus (NA)
: There is an easy way to make Irelia's hybrid damage fair
Downvote but no comment? At least give me the courtesy of saying why you disagree so we can discuss it. I'm pretty openminded.
Gilgayu (NA)
: When I play Amumu I always go either : {{item:3116}} {{item:3151}} {{item:3001}} {{item:3065}} {{item:1401}} and whatever boots or just full tank if my team can carry me
I'm somewhat surprised you get away with no armor.
Rioter Comments
: Probably due to things like Tank Ekko and Tankarina. Items like that can be used for the wrong purposes very easily. Honestly a small portion of the champions you listed were _actually_ AP bruisers, so balancing for them is tedious when the potential to break the game is so high. It was a very small category which is why it was easy to phase out. In the majority of cases you listed, it was always better to just be a tank rather than try to go the bruiser route as an AP champion. Bruisers in general haven't seen much love and Riot struggles to get their identity in this game right. The reworks they've gotten over the past 3-4 years have been pretty horrendous for the most part.
The ad variants have similar problems, which are exacerbated by their strong autos. Idk about tank Kat, because I took a 2 year break at one point, but Ekko relied on {{item:3025}} and high base stats, NOT his scalings. In response, his base for his ult was hit (as well as the base healing from it), his e was hit, and his w shield base was hit. I don't remember if they touched his base AD. You create scalings for ap bruisers that rely on a combination of hp and ap (or in malphite's case armor and ap), which is supposed to incentivize hybrid items. {{champion:113}} old w did exactly this, and her other abilities merely had ap scalings, which made her w her bread and butter.
: is this the best worlds meta?
The only way to change a profit-driven company is to vote with your feet and your wallet. No one really does this.
Gilgayu (NA)
: Btw {{champion:111}} is still usable these days, but just need to have a early lead for it to snowball He just have great engage tool and unbelievable tankiness.
I agree he's still usable, but I say he's outshined because champions like {{champion:164}}{{champion:516}}{{champion:14}}{{champion:555}}{{champion:154}}(ironically in Zac's case) can do some of or all of the same things he does and do them better or more easily.
Jackom1 (EUW)
: Premise: I too don't like that these champions are shoehorned, but in some of these cases, hybrid, bruiser-y builds will inevitably have glaring issues. {{champion:111}} has 4 ways to cc. At release his damage was pretty low. There was a time were his base damage was high enough to incentivise some offensive items, but it was correct; was it last year? Granted, with CC being given freely to pretty much anyone, he doesn't feel as much of a CC machine these days, but he still is one. A champion with high durability, a lot of CC (one of the best champs in this regard): are you sure you also want to allow him to be a threath in terms of damage? As much as Rito tries to find the perfect balance, players will always find the optimal build, in which he's a damage sponge, cc machine, AND damage threath (as much as bruiser can be), all in one package. {{champion:57}} Personally I prefer his new ult, as it has clearer effects. I agree that right it's weird to have mao's full damage potential be gated by bushes. The idea must have sounded good on paper, but in game it's meh (and way too frustrating in ARAM). If they find a way to give him relevant, non abusable, abilities that reward dipping into AP, then yes, I can agree on him being viable as a bruiser. But that we easily risk another Gragas case, which shouldn't be an example of a good kit. {{champion:154}} In his rework, rito somehow wanted to make him a tank that slightly plays like a diver. I mean, as a tank, your job is generally to either engage the frontline, and isolate as many threats as possible, or to engage the backline from a vantage position, in those RARE cases you have the chance. A tank, despite his great cc potential and damage resistance, shouldn't be able to easily reach the weakest enemy and isolate it from the rest of the group, if its team plays decently. But Zac can do that, he can jump on the backline from any position, something more typical of a diver or assassin. But when he's there, his job is to bring said target to zac's own team, and/or cc everything as much as possible. It's a weird combination, but if you want zac to be viable as a bruiser, you either take away his E, such that he can't engage the backline, or tone down his survivability, but then he's even more of a one trick: get in there and hope you can burst down the adc. A champion that can either isolate the backline or destroy the frontline? Sorry but that's too much.
{{champion:111}} He has 2 hard ccs. One is a pull type displacement that also pulls him toward the target. I think this is strong, and I think the ability is fine. It has a clear weakness in that it puts him in the crosshairs. The second one is his ultimate, which of course has a longish cooldown, and this also has clear counterplay in that you can use mobility to delay it hitting you (assuming you're not already locked down or being hit point blank), so you can try to reposition. His other cc only limits mobility, and both are point blank, one being a slow-moving AoE that is possible to out-run, the other being an auto-attack root that has a cd per target. With these weaknesses in mind, yes, I do think that him being able to do damage would be healthy as long as it was split between his w and e because his w can be cancelled by breaking the shield, and his e isn't going to chunk you for the full damage unless you're running away. The proper lever to giving the shield dynamic counterplay would be to give him a lower cd on it along with lower shield strength. The reason you do it this way is so you don't have a god mode every 18 seconds or so. This also allows you to add damage budget to it without completely breaking him. {{champion:57}} His old ult had clarity issues because it was just %reduction in the area, and you couldn't see that he was gaining power for an explosion. They could have changed the function to giving out shielding slowly (which is very visible on the hp bar), and every time they damage shielding, they could have changed his texturing to make him gain an increasing glow, with some obvious sign when he hits max like with gp reaching 500 silver serpents. Furthermore, if they wanted him to have power that wasn't abusable, they should have put a higher mana cost and high cd on his w, lowered the ratios on his e, and put most of the damage budget on his q so that he was strongest when in melee and able to get multiple q's off, relegating his e's and w's to being tools to pull off his q's. {{champion:154}} I like his rework, but they can never let him have any power on it because it would be too strong. I recognize this. It's the reason why I would prefer his old q and old ult. Then he would be down to 1 hard cc on his e, and one AoE positional displacement on his ult, and finally 1 soft cc (slow) on his q. Anyway, once you take away his ability to isolate, he becomes a disrupter, and if you put most of the damage budget on his spammable w, he won't burst anyone down, making him a tanky fighter rather than playing a tanky assassin. Incidentally, he's the one I can still use in league as long as I'm queued with reliable damage dealers, so if Zac is never touched again, I can still have fun with him.
: phantom isn't a bruiser item lmao
Try it on Xin or Graves. It works quite well in keeping you alive.
Jackom1 (EUW)
: Depends on what you see as an AP bruiser, and it doesn't help that HP/AP have been repeatedly nerfed. {{champion:154}} Was a tank first and foremost, he was never intended to be a bruiser. At best an AP assassin, if you go full AP {{champion:113}} She was a full tank from release, and a weak one at that. Whenever her damage was somewhat relevant, she would be immediately nerfed. Rito never wanted sej to have bruiser potential, only some occasional burst window. {{champion:32}} AP build is mostly for fun, again not intended to be a bruiser {{champion:131}} Now we're talking bruisers. And bursty diver is a kind of bruiser, although she probably leans too much on the burst part, since she scales better with AP, and can't survive that long anyway even if building some tanky items. She's one of the victims of AP/HP itemisation being bad, in that her kit wants her to be an AP bruiser, but with the items currently present she can't really do that, she still has to build full AP/magic pen. {{champion:31}} He's a weird one. Rito sort of wants him to be half tank/half juggernaut. But since they are aware that current items don't work for that, they just made his kit work on its gimmick. He probably highlights why magic damage bruiser is different than AP bruiser: the second actually wants AP/HP damage, the first can build whatever he finds most efficient, since his kit will work anyway. {{champion:79}} I don't even know if Rito knows what direction give to Gragas. He was even a full burst mage at some point. Maybe he's like Galio, a champ that likes to build some AP but is actually a tank. Again, current items don't favor that, so you can only be successful with him if you can play his disruption game really well. If you can't, then you just stick with tank items and act as a damage sponge, not the best one, but it's something. {{champion:57}} Not intended to be a bruiser. His kit, like Zac's, is made so you either go full tank or full AP, no middle of the road, and I think that's ok. he either engages/peels for the group as full tank whose damage (generally) isn't that relevant, or sieges from a safe position as a full AP caster, though that isn't really optimal outside of ARAM, is it? {{champion:82}} On point on him, but it's Morde we're talking about, is there really anything that favours him now? Besides possibily some of his countless bugs? Although Rito said that he should be getting a rework next year, so let's wait and see... {{champion:111}} {{champion:54}} full tanks, otherwise even Ornn should get a damage oriented build, and I don't really want that. {{champion:27}} Unique champ, and current items don't put him in a bad position. It's just that you have to know what he's supposed to do, because you don't play singed like you would play any other champion. Not sure if I should add {{champion:8}} {{champion:50}} : they are more mages than bruisers, so are meant to prioritize AP over anything else, while still wanting to build some defense. Personally I wouldn't call them AP bruiser, but someone does. EDIT: people downvoting without even giving a phrase or two of motivations. Never grow LoL community, never grow.
Before I start, I want to say I absolutely agree that Riot very clearly intends champions to be certain roles, but I think it's mistake to pidgeonhole them unless it's unhealthy for them to act a certain way (tank Ekko), so my retort is going to be based less on their intent and more proving that the **option** can be healthy. {{champion:154}} While you are right that he was clearly meant to tank, gating his %hp damage behind ranks and ap and having very low scalings on his other abilities so he couldn't burst would have kept the option healthy for him throughout the game. This would have made him a tank-busting variety of ap bruiser that wasn't as good against carries. If he gets to be too strong bursting carries, you can somewhat lower his (old) q and e base damages until the time to kill is in a fair place. {{champion:131}} We're in agreement here. {{champion:31}} The funny thing about his situation is that he's actually much stronger since he can invest in pure tank items. I don't think it's a healthy gimmick, but I'm not a designer or balance staff. {{champion:79}} We're also in agreement here. I'll add that they also really wanted to nerf his % damage on his w for some odd reason. So whatever they want him to be, it isn't a bruiser, and I don't get why that is, because if you invest in offense, your defense pays for it, so they should be incentivizing it, but they're incentivizing flashy r into q plays, which is in turn favored by bursty ap items. {{champion:57}} We disagree here. Although they didn't intend him to be a bruiser, with his passive being gated by a cooldown now, and his %hp damage no longer functioning on his w (which was pretty abusive and dumb), he could function fairly as a bruiser. Especially since his e no longer deals damage on impact (although I'm not sure I agree with the bush interaction). I do miss his old ult though. I think it was a good one. {{champion:111}} was never a pure tank. Just about everyone worth their salt on him before his w changes built {{item:3091}}. {{champion:54}} Same argument as Zac. Put most of the scaling power into his w so he's incentivized to brawl instead of burst. I would keep some power in his e for jungling though and primarily make his q utility/cc. {{champion:516}} You brought him up, but I think no one would want his w to have scaling because it's like rumble q where there's not a lot of counterplay. So yeah, I wouldn't want him to be a bruiser either. {{champion:27}} I'm well aware he's strong because of the movespeed/ap items being quite good on him. I do play him occasionally.
S0kaX (EUNE)
: A vote of 3/1 should result in a surrender
Usually the person who does this is voting no, but purposely runs out the clock so you can't spam ff him.
: If you remember Tank Ekko then you should be able to comprehend what Ekko is going to be like if they add more "AP Bruiser" items back into League of Legends. Tank Ekko is actually still a thing in the Korean regions (With players using Iceborne Gauntlet) and it's going to become busted if Riot started buffing AP Bruiser items for no reason. lol Not to say that I don't like the idea, but he's one factor, although I'm sure there are many more that I am not aware of.
You fix this by giving ap bruisers high base damages and low scalings and an ability that could be used often, like {{champion:32}} w or old {{champion:113}} w and items that support that type of playstyle. Tank ekko works off of constant soft cc from iceborn and extreme mobility to keep him sticking and safe. Obviously you don't design someone like that to be tanky on purpose.
nGio (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Acanthus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NwleAbtd,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2018-11-02T04:57:29.578+0000) > > It wouldn't be hard to make a set of melee only ap items like the hydra items and steraks. That was the problem before. The problem now is that we don't have many AP bruisers and the few we have keep getting turned into {{champion:154}} {{champion:113}} who couldn't even make proper use of AP bruiser items if we had them.
If they're willing to revert some assassins, why not the ap bruisers?
: i would say because , doe to the fact that mages , or ap assasins would be able to abuse it. Thats what made it kind of an issue before , mages stacking hp , a good amount of armor , and still able to burst the back line. If riot found a good way to make items for ap bruiser viable , with their items and not making mages overpowered it would be great.
It wouldn't be hard to make a set of melee only ap items like the hydra items and steraks.
: How did we forget rumble? this makes me sad ... Serious note, vlad and swain are viable bruisers, rumble is just not good in the meta right now. All of those tanks like sej and zac were never bruisers, they were tanks that you had the option of getting some pen on to increase their damage.
I've never played him as a bruiser. He's always been a melee mage for me.
: Do understand that reverting Banshee would likely result in the old Abyssal Scepter returning...
Abyssal Mask is the replacement for Abyssal Scepter. Old scepter was actually changed into an mr item without ap before the removal.
ozzirp (NA)
: riot always seemed to dislike brusiers more than any other class.
Morello certainly did, but I did have a healthy respect for how he tended to nerf stuff down and build them back up in a healthier way... usually. Better nerf Irelia and Olaf'd are memes for a reason. But ad bruisers have a lot of love in items now {{item:3071}}{{item:3748}}{{item:3053}}{{item:3046}}{{item:3812}}{{item:3078}}, whereas ap bruisers do not.
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Acanthus

Level 185 (NA)
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