: > [{quoted}](name=l love Ahri,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NKJYbOEH,comment-id=00150000,timestamp=2018-12-27T21:38:33.394+0000) > > What the actual fuck. > > Zed cant solo Darius or tanks. Stop it. Get some help > > The only way Zed can solo Darius and tanks is only if they have the IQ of a rock or if they are really really behind. Even with the IQ of a rock, Zed still cant solo them if they arent behind. They are just too tanky and full lethality build cant do anything against armor. > > Is EUW really that bad? Do you play Darius or are you only a <Removed by Moderation> Zed player? No, with full lethality he stands a very good chance at beating these tanks 1v1. Darius isn't nearly as tanky as other juggernauts such as Garen, Sion, or Urgot are and does good only in long trades where he can get those stacks in or once he already has Noxian might unlocked (Darius is ONLY an immediate threat when he has Noxian might unlocked). He does terrible against characters he can't hit (such as Yi and of course Zed who is so braindead you can press R and take out most squishes with the next hit which follows). I see you're a Zed player from the single Zed match on your account and the forums are filled with one tricks trying to defend their mains. It isn't even uncommon to see a Zed run by with Dusk blade + Ghost blade + Edge of might + Mortal Reminder rush in and start ripping apart tanks like armor meant nothing. If you think having 500 AP was strong you should see the other Zed players who rush in with all that armor pen with 500+ AD late game only to be untargetable due to how safe his abilities make him out to be. I've seldom struggled against Zed in the laning phase (I play Katarina mid lane and it's a skill matchup) but it's after the laning phase where he gets really annoying and starts to two shot people from the safety of his shadow. If you wanna defend a character make sure the character brings some risk to the table along with the rewards. Edit : Throwing in proof <Removed by Moderation> - http://matchup.gg/matchup/Zed/Darius/TOP
What a crock of _BULLSHIT_ > 500+ AD late game 500 AD? Are you high? https://champion.gg/champion/Zed/Middle According to this, Zed Base AD: 120.8 at level 18, Duskblade +55 AD, Youmuu's +55 AD, Black Cleaver +40 AD, Guardian Angel +40 AD, LDR + 40 AD, Ghost Poro +12 AD, Shards + 12 AD = 379.8 AD. Throw in Elixir for 409.8 AD. Zed steals 15% of an opponent's AD with level 3 ultimate. That means would have to kill someone with _600_ AD with his ultimate to make it to 500 AD. > Build lethality and 1 combos Darius late game. Aside from the obvious idiocy of stating flat armor pen trumping someone who builds tanky armor items, let's do the math here. https://champion.gg/champion/Darius/Top? Darius Base Health = 2282.2 + Sterak's 450 + DMP 425 + Spirit Visage 450 + Randuins 400 = 4207 Health total. Throw in Sterak's bonus health shield and you have a 1443 damage shield on top of that. And then bone plating for a flat 150 damage reduction _on top of that_ Darius Base Armor = 102 + DMP 60 + Randuin's 60 + Shard 5 for 227 total armor. I'll be nice to you and assume that Zed magically applied maximum Black Cleaver Stacks before he even started his combo. 227 times 0.76 Black Cleaver Armor Shred: 172.52 Armor. This number is then penetrated by LDR so 172.52 times 0.65 = 112.138. Assuming Zed is level 18, 21 Lethality from Dusk + 18 Lethality from Youmuu's + 7 from Sudden Impact = 66.138 effective armor. That's about a 40% damage reduction, give or take a small percent. The funny thing is you're so fucking _wrong_ small percents like that don't even matter. Zed's bonus AD with the build above is 409.8 - 120.8 = 289. Zed landing 3 shurikens: 220 base damage + 270% bonus AD = 1443.3 Damage Zed landing a shadow slash = 170 base damage + 80% bonus AD = 401.2 Zed landing an autoattack for duskblade proc = 100% total AD = 409.8 + 150 true damage (1143.3 + 401.2 + 409.8 + 150) * 1.55 for Zed's Death Mark + another 409.8 bonus AD from the ult pop. Times all that by 0.6 for Darius armor and bone plating, and Zed's full, 3 shuriken combo has done 2052.879 damage, add about 50 because I can't be arsed to calculate the true damage separately. Not only have you failed to one-combo Darius, you've failed to even get him below 50% health for Zed's passive to do anything. Electrocute, Zed's passive, and whatever AD you've scrounged up from Zed's ultimate would have to do 2154 damage through armor on their own just to get through the rest of Darius's health. On top of that, they'd have to get through another 1443 damage to get through Sterak's shield, again through armor. Unless you plan to try and engage a Darius in an auto attack duel and count that as "part of a combo". TL;DR You're wrong. Entertainingly, astonishingly wrong. Anyone who can do grade-school level of math can see how wrong you are. Anyone who'd played this game for more than 6 minutes can see how wrong you are. And yet your comment, stating that a Zed can _ONE COMBO A LATE GAME DARIUS_, has several upvotes. I hope to God Riot never, ever takes these boards seriously.
: Wait... is Aatrox actually designed the way he SHOULD be?
One thing that's really weird to me about the new Aatrox: his kit doesn't mesh with his lore very well. He speaks, sounds, and looks like something really big, angry, and psychotic. There's no refinement or elegance to his character. Even his sword looks more like something you beat people to death with rather than cutting. Meanwhile, his kit needs incredible amounts of precision to do anything. No knockups, no cc, no nothing if you don't land his Qs properly. The tiny dash on his E further encourages precise positioning (whether that precision is dodging attacks or landing Q's sweetspot). Now look at his voice and lore. Where in it do you find anything relating to a precise, meticulous playstyle?
GripaAviara (EUNE)
: Remove that fucking wind wall form the game already
Alright, I think most Yasuo players would gladly give up windwall in exchange for something like Genji deflect from overwatch. Unless you’re advocating for Yasuo to just not have a W, in which case {{sticker:sg-miss-fortune}}
: @RiotRepetoir Spear Of Shoji Shouldn't go live and here's why and the problems i can see with it.
Uhh, did they forget {{champion:202}} gets around 900 bonus ad by late game?
Derfel (NA)
: You a rioter? Besides providing us with an example of said dogshit I don't see the relevance of your nonsensical comment.
Ha, if I was a rioter I would've already increased Yas's bonus armor pen to 100% and given lee 400 movespeed just to spite people like you. Apparently you can't even read your own comment so I don't see a point in talking with you.
: Thanks ive been saying this ever since he was released But all i get is downvotes when i sy it :( Anyway this coming from yasuo players will help more That hitbox is really really really wide, like 3 sona ults wide almost :S Bit ridiculous Besides that one i think they should remove the part where his ult places him outside of tower range that is such an unnecessary addition
Yasuo tornado q is 3 sona ults wide? Where can I get this q?
Derfel (NA)
: Or they can cut it entirely and tie his free 2x crit onto his ult so this manaless champion doesn't just have 2 of the best passives in the game (yeah, 2, most champs have 1) for no reason other than certainlyT is a special snowflake and his snowflake champions just have to break the mold. I know yasuo weebs love the meme that if you don't give yasuo 2x free crit then he might just build tank and somehow ruin the game even more than he already does, so there you go.
His shield which is a worse version of several other very similar passives is one of the best passives in the game... And people wonder why Riot rarely listens to the boards for balance, and when they do it usually comes out like dogshit.
: Yasuo's ult isn't hindered by activating with a knockup
For your Cho'Gath and Ashe examples to work, they'd need to 1. Have a stacking mechanic tied to their cc and 2. Not be able to use their ults otherwise. For Ashe, imagine if her AAs didn't slow until she activated Q, and she couldn't ult unless there was a slowed target on her screen. In exchange, her ult is now a homing unblockable ability. Even then it would be easier than Yas's ult since slows are much more prolific and easier to apply than knock-ups. For Cho silences are so rare in this game that he's a useless example. Imagine instead that he could only ult knocked-up enemies. Without a knocked-up enemy on the screen he can't ult. In exchange, his ult now gapcloses for him. If you're going to make equivalencies, don't make them false.
Rioter Comments
: "Enough", he says. And then he begins to list cancer champions as if all is well. All is not well.
{{champion:161}} is cancer? Are you even listening to yourself?
: Why is everyone seemingly allergic to playing a tank top or jungle?
Mostly because of things like this. {{champion:11}} :Hey, can u pick a tank top? {{champion:122}} {{champion:11}} :Omg that's not a tank that's a bruiser. {{champion:122}} : Then u pick a tank {{champion:11}} : I'm reporting you.
Naag One (NA)
: Yasuo rework plz so toxic champ
OrbitalDropKick is that you?
: That's not an effective scenario. If amumu hops onto my carry, the best thing to do is peel, or in another words, CC him. It's also dependant on whether its a full blown teamfight or a small skirmish of 2v2, how late in the game it is, and who is the most fed. If my ADC is caitlyn and its somewhat early in the game, im going to keep amumu off, because by doing so, she output much more damage from a safer range than Vayne. If my ADC is lucian, I will attack the vayne, as lucian holds a good chance of fighting either of them with my help, not to mention I would pose too great a threat to vayne that amumu would need to peel to keep me off. So, once again, CC is everyone's counter. Saying to pick and choose your target is core on most any champ. It's far more complicated than a cut and dry scenario lacking substance.
So now that you've successfully stunlocked amumu, what do you think is going to happen to your team when you have a 6 item Vayne unning around unchecked?
: Well, CC is everyone's biggest counter, so how does that count? Very few champions actually prevent cc, like fiora, or negate a portion of it, like irelia.
Instead of explaining what has already been explained several hundreds of times, why don't you do a little experiment to find the answer? Next game you go into, play a champ with a lot of cc like {{champion:111}} or {{champion:89}} . Find the squishiest champion on the team, someone like {{champion:67}} and the tankiest, someone like {{champion:32}} . Now every teamfight, use all your cc on that tanky champion while leaving none for the squishy champion. See how effective you are in a teamfight when you chain cc the tank. Then get back to this thread.
morris1 (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=SirP0is0n,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vULmHoIc,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-09-17T16:01:47.016+0000) > > gettin&#x27; stopped by a god damn Wind Wall wait wat
Don't forget Wind Wall can block Annie Ult and can block Talon's entire ult if even 1 blade hits the wall :^).
Bârd (NA)
: Yasuo just wipes the floor with most of the roster right now.
{{champion:1}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:127}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:23}} {{champion:77}} {{champion:27}} {{champion:82}} are just a few of the many, many champions that can put an equal-skill level Yas in the dirt very, very easily. This is due to the fact that against most of these champs Yasuo might as well have 3 active skills. Of course if there is some burning need for you to play {{champion:4}} this particular game, there's always {{summoner:3}} .
Eedat (NA)
: What the boards think tanking is
This post reminds me of the old forums. Good times.
: > [{quoted}](name=AceBlack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ANEb0EqO,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2016-09-10T01:28:33.132+0000) > > Yas getting 40% cdr. > > Lmfao. > > If you&#x27;re losing against a player stupid enough to build max cdr on a champ that only has cds on half his kit, you deserve to lose. Implying Trinity Force Cleaver is a bad build on Yasuo.
Hmm...well let's see. Since three of your free item slots are occupied by either {{item:1001}} upgrade, {{item:3046}} {{item:3031}} or {{item:1001}} upgrade, {{item:3046}}{{item:3022}} , so building those BC and TF would leave you with one free item slot. In exchange, you've wasted over 1k gold on stats you use extremely inefficiently (on Trinity Force, you've straight up wasted your gold on the mana), on items which are barely gold efficient. You also have no lifesteal, no defensive item, comparatively little raw AD, and you're double-dipping in the same unique passive, meaning you're wasting even more gold. So yes, building both those items is a terrible build. Why don't you actually try it out in game and see how many non-monkeys you can beat.
Leafie (NA)
: At max rank, Yasuo's windwall has a cooldown of 18 seconds. It lasts 4 seconds. 18 - 4 = 14 seconds of downtime at 0% Cooldown Reduction. Here are a list of _possible_ items that Yasuo can use, either as Tanksuo or full AD Assassin Yasuo that also has CDR on it: {{item:3812}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3065}} {{item:3083}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3078}} Through any of these items, it is _inherently possible_ that he gets 40%. 40% of 14 = 5.6 **14 - 5.6 = 8.4 seconds of vulnerability. ** Now you mean to tell me that a champion that has a window of 8.4 seconds to kill is balanced? Get out.
Yas getting 40% cdr. Lmfao. If you're losing against a player stupid enough to build max cdr on a champ that only has cds on half his kit, you deserve to lose.
Xeruon (NA)
: "OMFG NERF YAS WINDWALL!!!!!!!!11!!!1!1!!!!111one"
Here's a little story from one of my more recent games. Me and two other teammates were taking mid tower when the enemy Ezreal from bot lane decided to come down lane (not from the side) to try and stop us. Since the tower was almost dead, I threw up my Wall so we could finish off the tower and leave. After we did just that, as we were retreating down the lane, the Ezreal paused in front of my wall, waited about a second, then cast his Ult right into my wall. Ten seconds later, this little gem popped up in all-chat. {{champion:81}} : Ur wall is BS. Tl;dr the people who complain about Yas's wall are usually idiots.
: > [{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZoEB97EA,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2016-09-09T00:09:45.747+0000) > > That makes no sense. You don&#x27;t punish a champion for using part of their kit. That would be like making Jhin&#x27;s auto attacks cost mana because he needs to be punished for auto attacking. Braum and Yasuo aren&#x27;t even close to the same champion and the comparison between their two walls is always stupid. Yasuo can&#x27;t move his wall while Braum can. Braum is a tank and Yasuo is not so he is supposed to soak up damage which is what his wall allows him to do. I&#x27;m just baffled that people have a hard time dealing with an ability that has a 26 second cooldown at rank one and is maxed last. > > You people act like it has a 0 second cooldown and he&#x27;s invincible while he&#x27;s using it. Jesus Christ. Stop being bad at this game and instead of QQing about him learn how to play against him. There is nothing unfair at all about his windwall. well first of all if youre not suppose to punish a champion for using part of their kit then why do nerfs exist? i was adding on to why people think he has a toxic kit, not saying hes broken. yes his w has a high cd which it should have but that doesnt mean the active isnt obnoxious. he can just use his windwall during a trade and you just cant do anything. thats why i think he shouldnt be able to just decide a trade with the push of a button. and most of the time you CANT trade after because he most likely chunked you during the trade. you can bring up stats all you want in an argument, but statistics is not equal to the experience.
> He can just use his windwall during a trade and you can't do anything. The mindset of every Yas hater ever. No wonder Riot doesn't listen to you.
: He is squishy, but not THAT squishy. Compare him to Zyra, Brand or Teemo. He is AD, so he is supposed to build lifeteal, he has a passive shield. I am not saying he is tanky. He is supposed to be squishy, but not VERY squishy.
All three of those champions are ranged. And fight at range.
: id counter argue that without her ult, (assuming she isnt massively ahead) Riven wont engage on most champions until her ult is back up. Whereas, Yasou is already thinking "fuck that im going in" Riven and irelia depend on their ults far more for burst/kill potential than Yasou does. Not to mention their ults do not apply a ridiculous debuff for 10 years.
Any enemy champ where a Yas thinks "I'm going in with or without ult" would be just as susceptible to Irelia and Riven without ult. That is to say, Yas isn't going to solo kill an equal-strength Renekton or a Darius without his ult if said Renek and Darius have theirs. If he goes in, he's going to get squished. An Ashe or a Jhin? Sure. Riven or Irelia would also destroy either of them with or without ult. But the fact that one ult is still objectively harder to use than the other two does not change. Therefore it has a lower cooldown.
: riven presses r twice actually. Not to mention about 40% of champs can get yasou an ult proc, or he can do it himself by literally q'ing minions twice then dash q the champion. So don't act like its at all hard to yasou ult.
Objectively? No, it's not hard for Yas to get his ult off if there are champions with appropriate abilities on his team. However, this thread directly compared Yas's ult with Irelia and Riven, saying that Irelia and Riven have longer cds on their ults, so Yas should too. Yas's ult is hard"er" to use that Riven's and Irelia's. So it gets a low"er" cd.
: We Nerfed Riven and Irelia's ult Cooldown time because they were always up...
{{champion:157}} 1. Enemy champion must be under a specific type of cc. 2. Yasuo must be nearby 3. Press R while the enemy champion is under the effect of said specific cc. {{champion:92}} 1. Press R {{champion:39}} 1. Press R. 2. Press R 3 more times. Of these 3, which do you think would get the lowest cooldown?
: Can we make Yasuo's Wind Wall breakable?
Sure. While we're at it, let's make {{champion:23}} s ult wear off after he takes 1000 total damage. And {{champion:114}} can only block up to 200 dmg with her w. {{champion:11}} s Meditate now also breaks after taking x amount if damage and Alpha Strike no longer has invuln. Like, Yas is a MADC. They need powerful defensive abilities. Just because the character is Japanese does not change the fact that MADCs need really strong defensive abilities.
Limrick (NA)
: Then perfect timing, because Yasuo is actually OP. And to be fair, most players wouldn't even notice this nerf at all. It's really more of a QoL change for everyone that isn't Yasuo.
> [{quoted}](name=Limrick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2zY853pA,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-09-02T00:43:52.093+0000) > > Then perfect timing, because Yasuo is actually OP. And to be fair, most players wouldn&#x27;t even notice this nerf at all. It&#x27;s really more of a QoL change for everyone that isn&#x27;t Yasuo. What, because of the tank build that's getting nerfed next patch, or because of the bug (that's also im all likelihood to get removed next patch). Because before those things, Yas wasn't exactly a pick/ban lcs conested champ. Even now he really isn't.
Eternya (EUW)
: Yasuo nerfs on the PBE
{{item:3147}} {{item:3078}} {{item:3153}} {{item:3748}} {{item:3074}} {{item:3742}} Not to mention fervor even when it's taken on crit Yas. All these items get shafted even on crit Yas by the ult change. Well, maybe if it gets people to shut up it's worth it. Oh wait no the boards are never going to shut up about Yasuo.
: I don't see Tanksuo Nerfs in the Patch Notes
{{item:3153}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3078}} {{item:3748}} {{item:3077}} {{item:3074}} {{item:3134}} {{item:3057}} And any other physical damage items I've missed. Not to mention Fervor. All of them benefit from armor penetration. All of them aren't crits. I agree no-crit {{champion:157}} is dumb. Let's not butcher items he can use because of it.
: > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iYEROU1Z,comment-id=000500000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-20T03:40:22.068+0000) > > No other ADC can tank for their team, swap a target out of the enemy team, lock onto enemy champs to reliably poke them from 1000 units distance away. All this while permanently slowing enemies and even shredding their armour. And no other ADC in the game has a suppression, the strongest form of CC in the game. > > Listing out kit strengths is a garbage argument, I can (and did) make any champion sound strong by doing so. Except Urgot isn't played in 24%+ of games and still has the highest average win rate over the course of more than a month soooo...
You started the argument by comparing the strengths of an ADC to the strengths of a mage, then you immediately said that comparing and ADC and a mage is bad and started listing the strengths of a champion. Then you went to comparing winrate and playrate... Just stop. Stop shifting the goalposts and argue properly. It's painful to watch.
: Ahh the venom of a yas player. I brought them up as examples because they're examples. When was the last time anyone felt threatened by an Eve or a Skarner? And this is DESPITE their horrible "uncounterplayable" abilities. Eve is good at ganking due to stealth. Whoop. She also has a terrible early clear making her rather slow to gank, she has the most god-awful kit and no clear build path. (Is she an assassin? A bruiser? AP? AD? Riot doesn't even know) Her ult is a tank ult, but the rest of her kit screams assassin. Except she isn't really bursty like an assassin unless she's invested VERY heavily into a bursty build path... by the time she's gotten there people are probably grouped up and will blow her up immediately if she shows her face. She's just plain a mess. And Skarner is so miserable they've reworked him like three times at this point. Ironically his kit isn't a bad one, it's just not able to handle the overloaded hypermobile kitemonsters and tank-assassins that are all over now. He's just a poor pick compared to other people, since they can do what he does better, easier or safer. His ult requires him to reach you, and he defense against it isn't to buy a QSS (although that WILL work) but to just avoid melee with him. Y'know, something most ranged champs are good at doing. As for the "free stats". You're completely ignoring the refreshing pile of free HP that is Yas's shield. Don't worry though, there's a skill component to using it though... you have to... um... walk around. Or the MASSIVE pile of armor pen attached to his ult. Twice the amount you can actually purchase in the game. Then there's his Q spam basically acting as free AS, since you can use it to effectively reset auto attacks, but that's just me being fussy. And your response to all of this other than spitting insults at me like a defensive little kid who's been called out in the lunchroom, will be to say "well, other champions have these sorts of abilities too!". Yes, congrats. Trynd has free stats. Trynd is ALSO an awfully designed champion, and one who is both boring and frustrating to play against too. Yi is slightly better, but only slightly. None of this matters. It's bad logic. Because OTHER champions are ALSO obnoxious, or also overloaded, or also poorly designed... then Yasuo is perfectly fine? That isn't how it works. And your arrogant, insulting tone just further makes me feel like your argument is entirely based out of your jimmies being rustled over the critique of your champion, not any real insight into the situation or understanding of what I'm talking about. When your argument basically boils down to "Everyone else sucks too so you're stupid!", I can't take it seriously. Let's mention another champ. Braum. You know... the other guy with a wind-wall type mechanic. Braum REALLY brutally undercuts your argument. Braum is a defensive support. EXACTLY the sort of champ that a wind wall style ability is made for. So why is Braum's shield inferior to Yasuo's wind wall? Blocking for his team is essentially the entire point of Braum's character. It's what he is there for. It's his identity. Yet, he has a worse version of Yasuo's power... which yasuo just kinda had tacked onto his kit because Riot was afraid melee carries were too vulnerable. It doesn't fit his theme of "aggressive wind samurai". It's a defensive power. It's a utility power. It's something a tank or a support should have. A single button that renders the enemy ranged champs useless for a few seconds isn't great design as it is due to that "counterplay" thing that people who like to rant about game design like to bring up. Oh sure, the Yas mains love it... but no one else does. The ultimate point is this. He doesn't NEED it. That's what I was trying to say. That Yasuo doesn't NEED all these little c*ckblocking abilities that let him entirely control the fight, deflect anything he doesn't wanna get hit by, and do as he pleases. It's a poorly designed, frustrating ability... but my issue isn't with the ability. Not really. I doubt they'll change it. Too many weebs out there would riot if they changed their lord and master. My issue is the sheer, dickish self-entitlement that Yas player have whenever anyone mentions his kit. "omg, you don't understand! He NEEDS to have free health that negates a massive amount of poke!" or "noob, he HAS to have a spammy dash and auto reset" or "idiot, he'd be garbage if he couldn't erase skillshots and auto attacks from existence with a single button". No. No he wouldn't. PLENTY of other champs are viable and strong without those things. Yas is not entitled to have wind wall because you like it. He's not garbage without the ability to casually nullify a Nami ult. He would just be forced to play the game like everyone else is.
Don't complain about venom after you called a champ's entire playerbase self-entitled and ass-backwards. You get what you give. And I'm not sure what lunchroom you go to where "biased" is a common insult that kids use. Meanwhile you seem perfectly content to compare me to a little kid...w/e. I have a thick enough skin that I don't care what people call me over the internet, but at least take that plank out of your eye before you try to remove the speck of sawdust in mine. When was the last time people were afraid of Skarner and Eve? Um...are you new to this game? Eve was nerfed to the ground and eventually reworked because of how stupid broken she was. And Skarner I think still holds the position of the champ with the highest WR in the game at one point. Yas's shield is "Free HP". If I had a single point of MMR for every time I've heard that argument I'd be playing against Korean challengers in my normal games. Why is it that no other shield in the game is described as free HP except Yas's? It's a sheild, not bonus HP. Buying Warmogs does not allow me to passively regen my shield faster. Soraka cannot fill my flow bar. I cannot lifesteal my shield back up. It's not bonus HP any more than Riven's E (or Skarner's W and Eve R) is bonus hp. I've heard Yas's ult being just called straight Armor Pen (which is wrong, it's bonus Armor Pen, meaning its value can vary from worthless to great depending on the target). This is the first time someone's been audacious enough to call it "twice the amount you can purchase in game." Mortal Reminder/LDR gives 90% of the bonus armor pen and powerful effects to go along with it. They are both purchasable for under 3000 gold. This is the difference between you and I. You can't take me seriously because you look at my post and somehow hallucinated that I called you stupid. I can't take you seriously because you constantly make claims that are either ignorant or wrong. I bring up Yi and Trynd because they are the two champs that share Yas's class: melee adc. Fiora used to belong to this category until the rework. They both have incredible defensive tools to make up for the fact they are expected to build squishy in order to do anything. They are much more relevant than your random mentions of Braum and Skarner. They can be directly compared to Yasuo, and both of them have, in gold value, more "free" stats than Yasuo does. The ultimate point is this: according to every objective statistic that can be measured, you are wrong. Yas does not have more free stats than what is expected of his class. His WR in Plat+ for players who have more than 125+ games with him hovers close to 50%. Every single one of of his abilities save his crit passive has counterplay that anyone can utilize regardlesss of what champ they are or what items they buy. And by counterplay I don't mean something like "oh just stay away from him". I mean "autoattack him to make him waste his shield/wall before you burst him", "don't fight him near minions to limit his dashes", "don't get knocked up and he can't ult you." You talk about rustled jimmies, but your entire argument boils down to "Apples (Yasuo) can do what Oranges (some other irrelevant champ) can't", followed by "I don't like Yas's playerbase blah blah blah subjective nonsense and generalizations". You don't argue with facts, you argue with feels, which is why I think I'll just stop replying to you now, because arguing with biased people is a waste of time.
: First of all... Fiora BARELY has an invulnerability. Second of all... invulnerability is a REALLY lame, cheese mechanic. Third of all... it would probably still be better than wind wall, since at least it's PERSONAL. No more pressing one button to defend his back line before diving in. It would ONLY save Yasuo. I mean, he would still be a hugely toxic champ with a hugely toxic fan base... making him into "dash spamming Tryndamere" would only make that worse, in fact. But from a balance standpoint, it would be better... yeah. I'd rather they remove the skill entirely and give him something more fitting an aggressive melee carry type. Like maybe something that... I dunno... does damage? "Oh, but he NEEDS it to not die to ranged champs!". No. Yas players are insanely self-entitled. Plenty of champs are melee and don't have c*ckblocking denial skills. He gets 100% crit off of two items... he can afford to build semi tank more than a lot of bruisers. Make him a freakin' bruiser. He's not entitled to a skill that renders nearly every ranged champ in the game useless just because he's melee. He's not entitled to anything. Without windwall he would STILL be a hard-scaling melee beast with spammy skills and a ton of free stats. The immobile champs he brutalizes aren't entitled to an ability that pushes away melee champs so that they can't get hurt. Oh, there IS one of those skills, but it's on Janna. A SUPPORT. This is the same kind of ass-backwards thinking that gets Zed "compensation buffs" every time Riot so much as looks at his power, but gets other champs thrown in the dumpster for months or years on end. I'm STILL waiting for Olaf to be playable again! Or Skarner. Or Morde. Or Urgot. Or Evelyn. Or one of a hundred champs rendered unviable by the new overloaded champs like Yasuo that are freaking everywhere now. Where is the invuln skill that EVE is entitled to? She's melee and has crap burst. She NEEDS one! Where is Skarner's dash? He NEEDS one! ... I'm certain you get my point here.
Oh, I think if an adc is given sub-200 range they're entitled to have an edge. Sorry, is Evelynn a melee adc with her power budget and items tied to crit? No? Well is Skarner? Not him either? Well then why the hell are you bringing up two totally irrelevant champions? But okay, if you want to bring up irrelevant champions and compare them, then I'm down. Skarner can get buffed. In exchange, he loses his current ult and it's replaced with "generic skill that does dmg". Eve can get buffed. In exchange, her invisibility is just gone. Replaced with "generic passive that does damage". And you know what's funny is both of the aforementioned abilities have less counterplay than Yas's wall. Even ranged champs can walk through or around the wall to completely negate its effects. Against melee champions it's a pure waste of a skill slot. Meanwhile, there's nothing I can do to stop Evelynn from going invisible for 70% of the game and the counterplay to Skarner's ult boils down to "buy an item that may or may not be slot efficient on you and/or flash". Oh, and P.S.: Yas gets the least free stats out of any melee adc. Trynd's 35% crit and 80 AD or Yi's boatload of "free" movement speed, attack speed, and passive AD outdo Yas's 50% crit (with a crit damage penalty) by miles in terms of gold value. But I know that math is too objective for your bias, so I won't waste my time doing the calculations.
: I don't think a fighter... light or not... should have one of the best team defense abilities in the game. Blocking attacks is Braum's thing. Give Yas a spell shield or something to dodge autos like Jax if he needs the defense. He shouldn't be able to wind wall into a fight and protect his back line better than the supports on his team can. And then he can dash in and fight, because wind wall doesn't even require him to chill there on the defensive to use it. Give it to a support. Take it off Yasuo. He can keep his absurd free crit and all that if we can actually rely on HITTING him with things at a range.
Well, the alternative is to give him an invulnerability. {{champion:11}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:23}} These are the three other champions in the game who share Yas's class. They all have invulns. Do you want Yas to have invuln?
: Yes, you're right. It does go both ways. But generally (directly corresponding to your points); 1: If a jungler gives a kill to their lane, they expect the jungler to babysit them as if their families' lives are on the line. 2: Um, the few that don't have CC have overwhelming damage/mobility to make up for it. Generally laners don't tell you to f*ck off because they don't have CC. IE kate/garen. And a case in which neither the jungler/laner has ZERO CC is impossible, cos there's always red buff. 3: Will admit this is an issue. Generally this only occurs post-gank (at most a jungler should take 3 little ones or a cannon, IF THE LANER GETS THE KILL!) or when the laner isn't there to farm it. I personally hard shove after they B as usually the enemy will B at the same time. Depriving them of CS/XP. 4: Any twat who ganks with no mana and low HP is an idiot. All you achieve is revealing your position and that you're of no threat to the other 2 lanes. 5: TBH it ain't a bad thing to gank a warded lane if it's an easy gank. Even if it's not, the jungler pressures your lane opponent and they may even force a panic flash. 6: No laner, goes "GTFO, bot lane is so much easier to gank". This is league, unless you're queued with the teams majority, it's every lane for themselves in terms of who gets ganks. "OMG you've ganked top twice, where the f*ck are my ganks?" 7: Unless it was like, non-stop, tag-in tag-out pining from a duo to try and piss the jungler off. I don't think there're many cases in which, a jungler flames their lane because they pinged them too much. 8: The jungler may well be awful at ganking. A jungler has to practice somehow. And even if the attempt is an absolutely pathetic one, he still applies pressure, and as stated above. There is always a chance the enemy will panic and flash unnecessarily. 9: Any laner that says "go farm, you're behind and I should be able to manage" is a godsend that I would have an orgasm over having in my games. Pity though, because they don't exist in small numbers, only teeny tiny numbers. 10: As long as a lane can output damage or CC, they are good to gank for. So what if they go oom? If a flash/recall is forced or better, a kill is secured. There is little need for mana as you can safely farm with little fear of retaliation, and you've got flash if needed(that's if you ward).
At number 6., sometimes I really do want my jungler to gank other lanes or at least not waste time ganking mine. If my lane opponent is 0/6/0 and I'm 10/0/3, all my jungler is doing by ganking my lane is wasting time. Even farming jungle at that point will net him more gold than assisting in a kill against a worthless opponent. Meanwhile, if bot lane is 2/2/0 and 0/2/2 for the adc and supp respectively, they could probably use some help to tip the scales.
: Anyone tell me how Vlad E is not broken?
Both of his main damage abilities have 5 second cds with no cdr. What, do you want them to one-shot squishies? You you want your q to heal you for half your health?
: AS a mage player, I want to be able to kill assassins
Alright then mage main, what class _should_ mages be weak to then? The tanks/bruisers that can't even get near them? The adcs that they outrange and can blast apart in one combo? The supports? Assassins are designed to wreck mages and adcs. That is quite literally their entire purpose in this game. Complaining about assassins wrecking mages is like complaining that bears shit in the woods. In exchange for being weak in lane against assassins, you get amazing range {{champion:101}} {{champion:99}}, cc so strong you can even support with it {{champion:127}} {{champion:25}}, or just straight up the best abilities in the game {{champion:61}} {{champion:38}}. Shit, I wish assassins had giant AoE knock-up that could be placed on your tank, or flash on a 1 second cd. But, I have good news for you. There _is_ a way you, as a mage player, can kill assassins in lane. Just don't play mages into assassins.
Rioter Comments
: Season 4 was the healthiest I played. Everything was viable and felt fair. Nowadays it's just assassin and AD meta.
Season 4? What, you mean the season that Feral Flare existed?
Tentaku (EUNE)
: {{champion:115}} - {{champion:236}} {{champion:13}} - {{champion:133}} {{champion:38}}- {{champion:238}} ... yeah mage meta was good times.
> [{quoted}](name=BigBadBadger,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qdhOL0w8,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-03-26T23:24:50.043+0000) > > {{champion:115}} - {{champion:236}} > {{champion:13}} - {{champion:133}} > {{champion:38}}- {{champion:238}} > > ... yeah mage meta was good times. You'll have to point me to the patch notes where Lucian got the range on his ult quintupled. Or the stats that have Zed as 100% pick/ban.
: > [{quoted}](name=BigBadBadger,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qdhOL0w8,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-03-26T23:30:44.113+0000) > > Which is nothing wrong considering how bruisers dominated top and jungle for years and years. not exactly for years, considering that theyve actually been so bad at some point that they were completely pushed out of the game for an entire season or two. make room for us mid and bot lane, and well share top with you. but that would require of riot to fix melee/ranged matchups to not make them completely onesided stomps in the favour of ranged champions. as it is right now, the only thing ive seen so far of riot is buff a specific type of champion like marksmen, until theyre played in almost every lane, without opening up "their" lane to other classes at the same time.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qdhOL0w8,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-26T23:33:34.582+0000) > > not exactly for years, considering that theyve actually been so bad at some point that they were completely pushed out of the game for an entire season or two. > > make room for us mid and bot lane, and well share top with you. but that would require of riot to fix melee/ranged matchups to not make them completely onesided stomps in the favour of ranged champions. Even I wasn't around for S2, but I recall people saying that duo bruiser bot was quite the thing back then.
Rioter Comments
: from what I calculated. they take about 516% AD. considering at point blank range at level 18. his auto does 110% ad. 220 crit + 38 * the 8 pallets of critical strike. am not sure of the 38 damage per pallet also critically strike. but it doesn't say that on the wiki. I mean at level 1. his autos do about twice as much damage as a typical adc.
When he crits, he fires 8 pellets. At level 18, 1 pellet does 110% AD, while the rest do 36.6% each. So that's 110% + 36.6%*7. Which adds up to 366.2%. And no, his pellets do not critically strike. Him firing 8 pellets _is_ his critical strike.
: i've had graves that went warmogs and owned me as rengar. couldn't even chunck half his health as a full build rengar. his autos hurt too much. and again hes really tanky.
Couldn't even get half his hp? Were you building 6 {{item:1055}} ?
Sariat1 (NA)
: Normal ADCs do 200% attack dmg with a crit. Graves does 870% if all pellets hit. Not even gonna mention IE in this. What Graves lacks in range, he makes up for in incredible burst damage abilities and insane base damages if he does land his attacks.
What? Graves does nowhere near that dmg w/ a crit. He does 366% w/ a crit auto, which is fair since he only gets 2 shots.
: > [{quoted}](name=AceBlack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uUgZGJqu,comment-id=000400010001,timestamp=2016-03-09T02:13:09.963+0000) > > A champion who gets up to 99% attack speed from just his passive. > > An AoE, long-ranged slow that does damage > > Another ability that gives 80% bonus attack speed, on top of 21% lifesteal. > > And then passively gets 30 bonus Armor and Magic Resist > > Or 80, **80** bonus AD > > Becoming** immune to CC** > > 80% movespeed towards enemy champions. > > Oh, did I mention he can also do true damage? And its cooldown is reduced by 1 second every time he autoattacks, of which he gets up to 179% bonus attack speed to do so? > > {{champion:2}} > > Yes we can. And I just did. I don't think that sounds overloaded, it just sounds very strong on paper. At the end of the day you can summarise what you've described into "Has a variety of tools that make his auto attacks strong, has a ranged slow and CC immunity". That's a champion who doesn't do many things. A truly overloaded kit has lots of tools that are unrelated to the point that they can do a lot of things. You're looking at stuff like "Elise has a stun, high flat damage, high % HP damage and massive mobility" - with just those tools you have a champion that is an assassin, tank shredder, pick-maker and peeler that is very difficult to catch up and can reliably get into melee range of enemy champions. You can make kits sounds scary and like they have lots of stuff in them if you try but if you take any time at all to actually consider the kit you can easily tell if they're truly overloaded. And Olaf from your description looks about as underloaded as it gets.
A variety of tools that makes his auto attacks strong (including the highest AD bonus in the game, up to almost 200% attack speed, and a bloodthirster's worth of lifesteal) Has an (AoE, 1000 range) ranged slow (that can be reduced for over half of its cooldown) CC immunity (which honestly I shouldn't have to explain why this is one of the best things to have in the game) And true damage, which gets its cooldown reduced by simply autoattacking And up to 49% increased healing from all sources, including lifesteal, and even "unrelated" things like Soraka's heal And random bonus armor and MR while his ult is not active And one of the highest movespeed buffs in the game Look, I'm not saying that Olaf is OP, obviously. But your definition of "overloaded" can be applied to pretty much any champion. Annie's stun, thornmail ability, obnoxiously long AA range and giant bear summon could be considered "unrelated" and means she could be an assassin, a AoE mage, a tank, a support, initiator, hell I've seen ADC/Marksman Annies before. If you don't think that any champions can be portrayed as "overloaded", then you're not thinking hard enough.
: >You can dissect most kits and call them overloaded No, you can't. Try it.
A champion who gets up to 99% attack speed from just his passive. An AoE, long-ranged slow that does damage Another ability that gives 80% bonus attack speed, on top of 21% lifesteal. And then passively gets 30 bonus Armor and Magic Resist Or 80, **80** bonus AD Becoming** immune to CC** 80% movespeed towards enemy champions. Oh, did I mention he can also do true damage? And its cooldown is reduced by 1 second every time he autoattacks, of which he gets up to 179% bonus attack speed to do so? {{champion:2}} Yes we can. And I just did.
Sirsir (NA)
: Zed clears waves faster and more efficiently than Lux. All lux has is her W and her ult. W takes up a lot of mana to not even kill the backline in mid game, unless you're fed (or Ludens), and you can't ult the wave early game unless you're backing. Zed E Q Es the wave to clear it and is back in full fighting order 10 seconds later as he roams. Plus you use the new item to bait out their zhonyas. Cooldowns come back up and do it again.
> W takes up a lot of mana to not even kill the backline in mid game, unless you're fed (or Ludens) How the fuck does this fucking nonsense have 17 upvotes. You know absolutely nothing about Lux, do you.
: Best Yasuo Nerf that won't gut him. Hear me out.
Plat+ players with 125+ games on him still only have a 50% winrate with him. Meanwhile, champs like Quinn and Tahm have 70%+ WRs. Where's the "he doesn't need any more nerfs" option?
: That's... Not even close to a comparison. I'm saying to remove his steroid and debuff both. (if you do the math, his Q actually starts dealing less damage than his autos the moment you hit 260 AD.) While bringing back the mechanics he had on release. I don't want to type this all out again, but I added an edit to show people exactly what was changed. Please read that. You'll see what I mean. Your comparisons don't work at all because neither of those champions had abilities that were stronger before their reworks than after. Reverting Yasuo's mechanic removals is not the same as readjusting the scalings on Tris and MF's abilities. Yasuo actually had things removed entirely, not just toned down.
> I'm saying to remove his steroid That's the issue. Removing all the debuffs in the world doesn't matter if you **remove the thing that lets him do his job**.
Valexfor (EUW)
: The problem is: Yasuo has strong base damages AND good scaling, that passive just gives him free damage he doesn't need to be played. Reverting the nerfs: 1. Passive: The 10% damage penalty now applies to Statikk Shiv; 2. R: Range reduced to 1200 from 1300; 3. W: No longer passively grants bonus Flow from dashing from bonus flow generated on Sweeping Strike 4 / 8 / 12 / 16 / 20%; 4. Passive: Flow generation reduced at early ranks to per 59 / 52 / 46 units travelled from 1% per 40 units; 5. Passive: Shield strength reduced to 「 100 – 510 」 from 60 – 690; 6. Passive: Shield duration reduced to 1 second from 2; 7. E: Bonus damage cap reduced to 50% at 2 stacks from 100% at 4 stacks; 8. Q: Minimum cast time increased to 0.18 seconds from 0.13; 9. Cooldown reduction from attack speed reduced; 10. Stats: Base health lowered to 462 from 512; 11. Stats: Base movement speed lowered to 345 from 350; These are the nerfs (live vs on creation) he received throughout his life. All these nerfs are just for mantaining double crits, if he had to lose double crits, he would still be incredibly strong and playable if these were to be reverted since he would have: 1. MORE shield INCREDIBLY MORE often and for LONGER; 2. 50% more stack damage on E; 3. MORE Q; 4. 10% more damage on statikk; 5. MORE health; 6. MORE MS; If he's not viable with all these buffs and needs double crit to work, his design is just that POOR and he's just so UNBALANCED that he SHOULD NOT be in the game. So the removal of his double crit is indeed balanced out more than enough if these nerfs were to be reverted, maybe some SMALL buffs would help people at "learning him again", but he would be balanced and totally viable. Remember: if a chap needs so many nerfs to be balanced because he's got some strange mechanic in his kit, usually removing that mechanic and reverting the nerfs isn't guttig him, but giving him a balanced spot, which Yasuo lacks at his core.
"Strong base damages?" Hardly. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_champions%27_attack_damage He's not bottom of the barrel, but he's not anywhere near the top. He's almost smack-dab in the middle of the list. Number 81 on base dmg @ lv 1. Number 63 on base dmg @ lv 18. Yasuo's role is to do damage. Something he shares with Trynd, Fiora, Yi as a class called "Melee ADCs". And you want to remove his only steroid. No, it does not matter if you give him 50% more damage on his mobility skill (that's like giving corki 50% more damage on his non-delivery W), no it does not matter if you give him 10% more damage on shiv. If a DPS class cannot do DPS, they are worthless.
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AceBlack

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