Duysterz (NA)
: Attack Range Unit Simply (simply a lot of other things to make it more a casual easy to pick up game
Yeah I thought the same thing when I first noticed this. Such an unintuitive thing for it not to just be # of hexes.
Zacster (NA)
: Sentences Only League Players Will Understand
Snow Tea (NA)
: League of Legends is indeed slowly losing players...
I've quit this game. The main reason is dynamic queue. However, I also feel like League has lost its charm; The "ye old" look and feel of the client, store, in-game shop, etc. The simplistic nature of champions. The skills acquired over time (timing dragon/baron/buffs) Etc. Game is still good and won't completely 'die' any time soon. It's just lost its touch for me, and dynamic queue was the straw that broke the spell this game had on me since season 2.
: IT'S HAPPENING!
How do I take the survey? Log in and play a game of ranked?
: This DQ scapegoating has to stop, its not coming back and there are still threads coming everyday. You do realize its just a thread, right? Riot looks at the title - nope - they don't even read them anymore. And its not like the solo players could just stop playing to prove a point: they're all too addicted to this game.
I've stopped playing this game altogether, and it's largely because of DQ.
: I hate leagues state but it's hard to quit the game.
Quitting isn't that difficult if there's other areas in your life to focus on. I enjoy spending an hour or two gaming every day, despite being very busy otherwise. I invest that time currently in Civ5, Civ5 SDK, and AoE3 (yes, I still play Age of Empires). Other than having a few games you enjoy playing besides league, make sure your actual life has content. Pick up an instrument. Study harder (if you're in school). Go out and do new things like attend a concert, hit the gym, take a random class like painting, etc. I find that alot of people who cannot quit this game are usually playing it to fill up the time in their lives. I've quit playing since I learned of DQ's flaws.
: No because Jax would still be able to dodge and Panth would still be able to block it. Literally the entire reason the comment was made was to say it was to prevent certain champions from blocking autos. Your only real point was to make it an auto attack.
Er. Along with making it an auto attack, my point was to **_increase it's attack speed_**. Panth can only block autos so often. If the attack speed on dragon is high enough, the % of damage he mitigates is lowered. Same with Jax, as his dodge is on CD. The more autos that hit him while its on CD, the less damage he mitigates.
: As arbiteroftruth stated, dragons attack is a spell, not an auto. This was because panth could solo it after blue buff. This is the same reason why jax cant block the auto. It shouldnt stop banshees, though.
Couldn't this be resolved by simply; - Making Dragon's attack an auto attack. - Increasing Dragon's attack speed by 100% - Decreasing Dragon's AD by 50%
Dengeden (EUW)
: > And your point? Is that queue times have remained the same, what else? > And these websites act as the veins of the game's community, through which information and content is shared and created. Word to mouth, shared videos, popular threads, etc., all spread the game's state around through media. If this media rots, so too does a very significant portion of the playerbase. Yes, this is the primary form of communication Riot has with us. HOWEVER, most people simply don't care enough to communicate their desires (or lack thereof). These people are in the majority, the websites don't speak for them. > Norms has been around forever. Ye, tbh, I couldn't miss the opportunity to diss the teambuilder that everbody loved now that it's gone. Was a moot point by me. > 10 people eat steak every day. 10 people don't. 4 of the steak-eaters are overweight. 4 of the non-steak-eaters are overweight. One of the non-steak-eaters who isn't overweight says "I'm not overweight because I don't eat steak." You're that guy. I ... see? No, I don't, you want me to be devil, of course you do but your analogy makes zero sense. We're all steakeaters here, DynamicQ affects us all.
> Is that queue times have remained the same, what else? You didn't see my bolds. You said that "fill" role is the same as last seasons SQ queue time. Yet, the other 4 options (jng, adc, mid, top) are much longer. This doesn't mean that the queue times are the same as last season lol. It means that for support mains, the queue times are the same as last season. > Yes, this is the primary form of communication Riot has with us. HOWEVER, most people simply don't care enough to communicate their desires (or lack thereof). These people are in the majority, the websites don't speak for them. The players who visit forums, create youtube channels, watch youtube videos, watch streamers, etc., are the ones that matter the most. They are the 'voice' of the playerbase. If they all start talking about how they want to leave due to Riot's stance on X, then that trickles down. > Your analogy makes zero sense. We're all steakeaters here, DynamicQ affects us all. Steak-eaters = Those who want SQ back/dislike DQ Non-steak-eaters = Those who, like you, are cool with DQ Overweight people = Those who blame circumstances rank their rank Non-overweight people = Those who don't blame circumstances for their rank Because you like DQ and don't blame circumstance on your rank =/= people who dislike DQ blame circumstance on their rank. That's a crap argument. I don't like DQ. I want SQ back. I don't blame DQ for my rank. I stopped playing ranked because I don't enjoy DQ, thus I've stopped climbing. If I wanted to get last seasons rank back, I could absolutely queue with pre-mades and make my way back. To make it crystal clear. Whether or not you blame random crap for your rank has nothing to do with whether or not you're a supporter of DQ or SQ.
: Solo que had a huge ampunt of issuess. Mainly that in order to climb, you had to hardcore carry. It was difficult for many players to get to their actual level.
I think this issue isn't really an 'issue'. It's just the nature of the ladder lol. If you're better than the average player in your elo, you will climb out. That's how a competitive scene works.
: > [{quoted}](name=Aheadatime,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lewE7Wux,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2016-06-03T18:11:08.630+0000) > > Was plat last season, placed gold this season. You can't just say "well I know DQ isn't good for plat, diamond, masters, and challenger, but forget that for now." If DQ fails on that large of a scale, it's worth talking about. SQ didn't fail for any of these divisions, which is also worth talking about. Bottom line is that DQ creates issues that SQ didn't have, and doesn't bring anything to the table that SQ didn't have outside of playing with 3's and 4's. It's a failure of an idea. But my point is that anyone Plat + is really only 5% of this community. Everyone else shuldn;t have any issues. in fact i feel that anyone gold and below should be having better games with lower que times and all around better ranked experience. at least that's how it has been for myself. i am silver 2 right now and have been fluctuating between silver 2 and silver 1. I have been in my promos for gold 4 times. i can honestly say that I haven't experienced any bad qualities after stitching from SQ to DQ. But that's just me. and that's also why i wanted to hear some reasons for people in low elo who have issues with DQ.
Well I played a few weeks' worth of Gold ranked DQ this season, and the qualities of the matches were poor. More mismatches than last season. Frequent pre-mades (usually 3 was my experience). Carried people/boosters every now and then. In general much less emphasis on me and my skill and more emphasis on pre-mades and which team has the better one. Longer queue times too.
: which rioters left?
IronStylus and Lyte are the two bigger names that I know of.
Dengeden (EUW)
: >Queue times themselves are proof that the population is dropping/far less people playing DQ. _Oh fallacy, oh fallacy._ Queue times for "fill", which is the equivalent of what soloQ was, are more or less identical. In fact, according to Riot statistics, it should be lower. >ARE in fact, actual representations of the population **who use these websites**, whether you like it or not. :) >Queue times are garbage even in normals. Oh to be sweet and innocent. Ever played teambuilder? Now that was BS. >Honestly at this point if you don't think there's anything wrong with DQ ... ... you are someone who focuses to improve their own gameplay instead of looking for things blame.
> Queue times for "**support**", which is the equivalent of **lack pick in old soloQ**, are more or less identical. And your point? > representations of the population who use these websites, whether you like it or not. And these websites act as the veins of the game's community, through which information and content is shared and created. Word to mouth, shared videos, popular threads, etc., all spread the game's state around through media. If this media rots, so too does a very significant portion of the playerbase. > Oh to be sweet and innocent. Ever played teambuilder? Now that was BS. Er. 1. Norms has been around forever. 2. This is the longest the queue times have been for norms. I'm going to respond to these two points by saying "There used to be a queue with a longer wait than the current norms wait." Ok. > Honestly at this point if you don't think there's anything wrong with DQ you are someone who focuses to improve their own gameplay instead of looking for things blame. 10 people eat steak every day. 10 people don't. 4 of the steak-eaters are overweight. 4 of the non-steak-eaters are overweight. One of the non-steak-eaters who isn't overweight says "I'm not overweight because I don't eat steak." You're that guy.
: I don't understand why anyone has an issue with dynamic que. is it because you think people grouped up have that much of an advantage over people who are not grouped. you are all forgetting that it still requires the players to understand how to close the game out and take the proper objectives which most people gold and below don't know how to do. so can someone please explain to me why dynamic que is such an issue that people are willing to quit the game over it. And please anyone Plat + don't answer me because i understand why you are upset because in that elo having a group gives a very distinct advantage.
Was plat last season, placed gold this season. You can't just say "well I know DQ isn't good for plat, diamond, masters, and challenger, but forget that for now." If DQ fails on that large of a scale, it's worth talking about. SQ didn't fail for any of these divisions, which is also worth talking about. Bottom line is that DQ creates issues that SQ didn't have, and doesn't bring anything to the table that SQ didn't have outside of playing with 3's and 4's. It's a failure of an idea.
Asinine (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=MIRKY,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2ZQvdUqe,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-06-01T04:35:31.386+0000) > > Can I just say that i respect you so much for not making this another > "WAW RITO FUCK YOU GG I HATE YOU IM SO BUYING OVERWATHC NOW" posts :l it doesn't matter, he just made the same statement but was just more polite about it.
Er.. I didn't state any of that stuff lol. Never implied that Riot should go fuck themselves. Never stated I hated the company. Have never played Overwatch, and didn't say I would in the OP.
: The thing that saddens me is that your post is very well thought out, but its against something Riot supports, so they won't even look at your post :(
They've looked at it I'm sure. They just don't want to respond probably because they disagree fundamentally. They may look at all my points and go "well yeah, but DQ is the future, as we want teamwork to be the center stage". I was really hoping for a response from Riot to get some discussion going, but that doesn't seem like a reality at this point lol.
Alissal (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Karn Bishop,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q8EAOvGU,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2016-06-02T23:59:36.629+0000) > > I like how people argue this like it magically proves some sort of point. > > I mean by using this logic the people who hated hitler were a minority group of angsty teens who were just really really upset, everyone else is actually fine with the death camps. You're comparing a YouTube video, to Hitler's Holocaust. What the heck is wrong with you?
He/she is pointing out that stating something doesn't make it factually true. My bet is that there are more dislikes than likes because people just genuinely didn't like the video's contents. SoloQ is super popular, as it has been the staple of this game's competitive atmosphere since the games birth. It's easier to believe that people feel attached to it and therefore dislike news of its demise than to believe that tens of thousands of people who saw that video liked it but didn't feel like clicking like.
MrWasjig (EUW)
: Thank you for saying everything I'm thinking, but can't be assed to sum up. The sad part is, despite how well written and on point this is Riot will ignore it. Try posting a funny GIF in Memes&Games if you want their attention./kappa
I'm not sure they ignored it. I have a feeling they've read this thread and just don't want to respond because they disagree. They're probably waiting until they implement whatever changes they were discussing in the video (no more 5-mans at diamond+, auto-fill feature, etc) before considering other options. For one reason or another, Riot's burning desire to make ranked into more a pre-made-oriented gamemode is overruling their ability to compromise or listen to the community on this particular topic. I'll be staying away from ranked while DQ is in place, but will still be following along to see if any dramatic changes take place that I'm interested in.
: I read over your comments, and completely agree with you. But we just gotta adapt to what we have if we can't change Riot's mind, and maybe suggest how can DQ bet somewhat better instead. I do miss SQ though lol
I've spent some time thinking about this, and I honestly don't have any suggestions that don't just bring the queue closer to my ideal thought of SQ (no 5-mans, no 4-mans, 3 role selection, etc). Of the list of things SQ would fix in the OP, DQ can only solve one. I don't feel that a queue in which pre-mades face off against solos will ever accurately represent one's elo, consistently provide fair matches, or make the solo player feel consistently impactful. The queue time can be solved through giving us 3 roles to choose from instead of 2, and making it so that beyond X amount of queue time, everybody must auto-fill.
: While I'm actually rather indifferent toward DQ (I haven't played much Ranked lately and when I did, I barely noticed a difference when I solo'd. Granted, I'm currently Bronze IV...), I appreciate that you made this post in such an organized and discussion oriented way. I wish most Gameplay threads were written like this. Just wanted to say that.
Thanks for that man. It's a shame there's no Riot response yet, either to my thread or any of the Roundtable thread. They mentioned numerous times in that video that communication is severely lacking on their behalf. Maybe they're going to wait until they implement some changes before opening up to communication.
Errastas (NA)
: This is perfect.
Jofeyy (NA)
: Great post, thanks for writing it. I agree that riot has this new habit of creating problems when changing things that were working just fine.
I think it's their reaction to a halt in player growth. Could be wrong, but dramatic unrequested change is definitely an attention grabber.
Chamber (NA)
: Just wanted to say this was a very well written and thoughtful post. I would have nothing to add here as you have hit every nail on the head.
Thanks for the like, comment, and kind words man.
: most of all, i feel like the dynamic queue change is just riot positioning themselves to remove 5 man and 3 man team play. They'll have one ranked queue, which is dynamic queue, and remove all the other ranked queues and save a lot of money. This is just like their incredibly ill-advised decision to unify the splash arts. The old system was much more intelligent in terms of region satisfaction, as the splash arts could be changed per-region to suit the desires of each region. But this was declared to not be cost effective, and so they just took all of that out, dumped a bunch of shitty splashes on us, and laughed their way to the bank. What this really means to me is that riot doesn't /actually/ care about satisfying their players anymore. At the end of the day, they're still a multinational corporation that cares first and foremost about minimizing costs and sponging as much money out of their consumers as they can. In pursuit of this goal, they may still acquiesce on extremely minor things such as splash art touchups or slight recolors if the entirety of reddit gets up in arms about it, but we're not really being put first anymore. these two changes - being dynamic queue and the splash art 'unification' - are, mark my words, only the beginning in what will be a continuing trend of major and heavily unpopular changes that Riot and Tencent will arbitrate upon the game in order to maximize their income, even at the cost of player satisfaction and healthy design ideals.
You know, it is possible to look at this from the perspective of financial interest. I read an interesting post a month or so back that stated the following chain of logic - Riot has lost x% of players in the last 6 months. - To amend, Riot wants to get casual, group-oriented players to join the game. - Thus, DQ is introduced to appease this target audience. SQ would leech too many players away from DQ, so they remove it. Who knows. I have no clue what made Riot decide that DQ was going to be _the_ ranked queue for League. They've clearly made a very firm decision internally for whatever reason and are moving forward with that stance. I just hope that if they see a significant amount of backlash or a noticeable decrease in players (ranked and otherwise) that they'd be willing to change that stance.
: Do you think that a pure soloqueue(or duo/solo) with the champion select and role positions we currently have would work?
Yes I do, and I feel that a pure SQ with these features would be the most intuitive queue Riot could offer, and would feel the best to the largest portion of the playerbase of all the queues. I do feel like role selection should be expanded to three choices rather than two, though. A pure SQ would solve the issues of queue time, fair matches, accurate elo representation, and personal impact. It's also the most logical manifestation of competition available, as every single game you bring precisely 20% of the team's worth to the table and are judged accordingly. Inversely, it's possible to get matched with a 3 or 4-man group and have that 20% diminish significantly. My opinion is that there should be a pure SQ with current champ select and three role positions alongside a 5-man ranked queue for teams who wish to compete their way to the LCS (or just have fun climbing as high as they can).
: It's nice to hear a well articulated complaint instead all this "Fuck you Riot eat a dick and die I'm quitting to play Overwatch because Blizzard(lol) cares more about their players".
Lol yeah. I understand the frustration and all, but I feel like composing complaints/arguments/opinions in an organized and readable way goes a long way in getting people to join the discussion.
: Signed and upvoted
Kudrov (NA)
: In the Video, Lobbster, the main dev for DynamicQ said : "we never had that much peoples playing ranked right now" to trying to tell us there never been that much players playing since DynamicQ come out like it was a great thing. well no shit sherlock whats left? SoloQ GONE, Ranked's 5 GONE, TwistedTreeline ranked GONE, TeamBuilder GONE, Dominon GONE. is it me or the next STEP is League of Legend GONE.
That's a good point. I'm pretty sure you're right too.
: I appreciate your thought out post, but you made various mistakes. > The Crux of DQ It's not (only) to promote team play, it's (also) because people were asking for it and because it reduces toxicity. About people asking for it, you mentioned that your friends don't, and I believe you, but that doesn't change Riot explicitly said in the vid that people asking for it was part of why they created DQ. > Fair games The engineer did not say that a 5-man premade and 5 solo players who are all 10 at the exact same ELO was a fair match. He said that a match between a 5-man of a certain ELO and 5 solos of a **higher** ELO with a 50% win probability for each team would be a fair match, according to him. His measure of fairness was the probability of win for each team, not the ELO of the players inside the team. And to his credit, he tried to ask to the players if they could agree with this definition of fairness, to which the answer was some mumble about the Ranking not representing the same thing for Solos and Premades (which is probly true, but doesn't answer to the question he asked). > Queue Times Your analysis is wrong. Even if the population is much larger than in old Team Builder, if there is *in proportion* a shortage of some position, this will be the limiting factor for queue time. On top of that, you say there are millions of players in each ELO bracket. That's also wrong, they said multiple times in the video that all the problems specific to Diamond+ are caused by the tiny player pool. And for Plat and below, there aren't so many time issues with DynQ, and the Queue times are still lower than what happened in TB. I have some slight disagreements with your opinions, but nothing too serious, maybe I'll make another comment to discuss, but I wanted to correct the factual mistakes first. Hope that helps ;)
Thanks for the thought out response. I appreciate the discussion. > It's not (only) to promote team play I labeled the teamwork aspect of DQ as Riot's "main goal". I stand behind that. Toxicity was discussed in the OP, and I have different thoughts on how to fix that. As for people asking for DQ, I can't verify or deny that. I don't visit forums from the globe (Russia, Korea, Japan, etc), and my anecdotal experience is limited. > The engineer did not say that a 5-man premade and 5 solo players who are all 10 at the exact same ELO was a fair match. My apologies. He stated that the system would adjust for such games. This seems like a failed experiment though. Now I haven't played ranked in quite some time, so I'll say that perhaps there have been tweaks to the system, but when I gave DQ it's fair shake, I was encountering stomps and mismatches at an unprecedented proportion. This seems to be the case with my irl league friends, as well as many members of the boards. Last season people were upset with trolls and afks (which I strongly believe is tied to elo ladder placement), while this season the angst is directed towards pre-mades (which is stretched more evenly across the board it seems). Let's examine the extremes. Not only was Scarra mentioning unfair matches in Masters, but we have to also consider bronze players (the other extreme). Isn't is the case that the bronze 5 solo player, unless being paired in a perfect mirror situation (4-man vs 4-man and the like) is the most likely to receive mismatches? His elo isn't likely to be above any 5-man's average elo, as he is at the bottom of the ladder. So if he encountered a larger sized pre-made, he will automatically be at a disadvantage. How often does this occur? Should it ever occur? > Even if the population is much larger than in old Team Builder, if there is in proportion a shortage of some position, this will be the limiting factor for queue time. I cannot deny this, nor did I attempt to in the OP. I simply stated that the pre-made factor of matchmaking is what I believe to be the biggest perpetrator of longer queue times. I'm in gold right now, and was in plat last season. I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that it was taking me longer to get a game going when I was playing ranked earlier this season through DQ than it was last season through SQ. Again, anecdotal, but to make a statement preceding from anywhere else (objectivity) isn't possible for me nor you, as we don't have the data. I'm almost certain that queue times are higher across the board on average with DQ. As for the millions of players statement, I fudged that. I was meaning to say "there are millions of League players divided between the elo ladder".
: This needs to be bumped a thousand times just for the "In Conclusion". Its spot-on. Dynamic Queue does not solve issues, while it presents many more. I would even argue that Role Select introduces many issues. However, Role Select at least solves a major pain point of the past, unlike DQ, even if it needs looking at to make matchmaking quicker and more balanced overall. Premades do not solve any form of toxicity if its not a 5 man group. If there is even a single outsider, there's potential dispute between them and any premade member, or visa versa. Unless Riot wants to make the game 5v5 only, premades do not lower toxicity. And in that case, why not just keep the old system? People who want premades can just queue as 5 or play normals.
I agree. I'm even of the mindset, even though I didn't mention it in the OP, that role select should be expanded to three choices. The reality is that ranked is highly competitive. Given that, I feel that players should have a large enough champion pool and understanding of the game that they can adequately play three roles. If this was implemented alongside a removal of the pre-made system in favor of SQ, I can only see net benefits in regards to queue time, elo reflection, fair matches, and competitive preservation.
: > 'Queue times matching Team Builder times is because Riot utterly failed with the Fill position and Support Secondary.' > > How can you be so confident making such a statement? Lobster broke it down in the video quite plainly. Queue times are the result of pre-made system, elo matching, and role selection. If the support/fill issue falls under role selection, that's still only 1/3rd of the pie. Because of the video itself plus the description below. Elo matching for all but the highest elo is fine - "I could match you with 4 Bronze players instantly," as is premades (they're only restricting that at the highest elos) which leaves role selection. The only change that they're rolling out to *everyone* is Autofill, aka "you will get Support regardless of if you picked it." > 'In a premade, you've got players that want to duo bot'. > > Sure, but not all the time. I regularly queue up with 2 or 3 irl friends and none of them pref support, despite two of us formerly being support mains. Out of curiosity, how long were you two a Support main and when did you leave it? > 'SQ, where you have to play a carry to climb' > > This is a pretty useless response, as it's anecdotal, but I would run into far more support mains in SQ than I have in DQ. You never had a SQ to make that determination, you had Solo/Duo Queue. It wasn't uncommon to hear people say "bot with so-and-so" in that queue, and that's just the people who pointed out that they were with someone. Going back to my first point, many people wouldn't mind going Support once in a while if their main was taken. I use to go Mid/Support all the time, and last year I got Mid 63% of the time in Ranked. According to Riot, if I tried that now with roles declared before the lobby I'd get Mid 16% of the time. I'm not willing to get my preferred role less than 1/5th of the time, so you can bet there's no chance of me queuing with Support secondary now while I would have last year.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the point of queue times. I strongly stand by my point in the OP; pre-mades are more of an impact than is role selection. Can't back that up without repeating myself. > Out of curiosity, how long were you two a Support main and when did you leave it? Hmm. Typing as I think. Was a mid main for most of season 2. Season 3 I started filling all roles, but enjoyed supporting in ranked due to how terrible most supports were. I probably filled my way through rank up to gold 4ish, meaning support ~60% of the time. I stopped filling and started calling "top/jng pref" probably season 4. If you browse through my Lolking ranked stats, you'll see that I've always played a wide variety of roles, though. > You never had a SQ to make that determination, you had Solo/Duo Queue. It wasn't uncommon to hear people say "bot with so-and-so" in that queue, and that's just the people who pointed out that they were with someone. Continuing with the anecdotal experience, and perhaps this is coming from a negativity bias on my behalf, I can recall a large number of games where bot wasn't getting along in old SQ. "Support doesn't ward." "This adc just suicides, I'm roaming top." "Report this raka, taking cs." Etc. > Going back to my first point, many people wouldn't mind going Support once in a while if their main was taken. I agree with this completely. I do clearly see that the support/fill options are flawed atm, and I think Riot has alot of work to do in that department regardless of whether we're talking about SQ or DQ. But I do not see this as being responsible for queue times, given my experience with TB in the past. This brings me back to my point in the OP. If we remove TB and turn SQ into TB SQ, then the population increase should be exponential, as we hopefully bring both crowds into one queue. If we then give TB two role selections instead of one, this should expedite the matchmaking process even further. Why hasn't this formula worked, then? It's logical to assume this must either be because of a decrease in players, or it's the pre-made system.
: A pure Solo Queue would likely have **longer** queue times than Dynamic Queue. In a premade, you've got players that want to duo bot, and if there are four players they *have* to be willing to cover all five roles or they can't queue. Contrast this to Solo Queue, where you "have to" play a Carry to climb and there's no incentive to Support. Queue times matching Team Builder times is because Riot utterly failed with the Fill position and Support Secondary. In Blind Pick and old Draft, Fill is random (if you don't believe me, play 10 games). In new Draft, Fill is always Support and Support secondary is always Support. This causes people who don't always want to Support to not pick them, causing a shortage of Supports, causing longer queue times. If from the get go you wouldn't get Support more than 50% of the time with these options we'd have shorter queue times, but months after release Riot's solution is to strong arm people into the position...
'In a premade, you've got players that want to duo bot'. Sure, but not all the time. I regularly queue up with 2 or 3 irl friends and none of them pref support, despite two of us formerly being support mains. Just as Riot stated in the video, the ideal or expected outcome doesn't always manifest. 'SQ, where you have to play a carry to climb' This is a pretty useless response, as it's anecdotal, but I would run into far more support mains in SQ than I have in DQ. Most DQ supports I run into are stuck there via fill, with the occasional duo. Not all of them, but alot of them. Personally, I got from unranked to gold supporting. Yes, I needed to start maining top and jng to get from gold to plat, but alot of players realize they can climb through support, and would do so in the old SQ. Another thing you're missing out on is that a lot of support players don't enjoy queueing up for DQ, as they feel like they have less of an impact in the DQ pre-made environment. In SQ, I could carry with solid Alistar plays and shotcalling. I've found this to be much less the case in DQ, as my jng/top/mid pre-made does all the shot-calling while their 3-man premade camps bot. It's a difficult environment for an already weak roll. 'Queue times matching Team Builder times is because Riot utterly failed with the Fill position and Support Secondary.' How can you be so confident making such a statement? Lobster broke it down in the video quite plainly. Queue times are the result of pre-made system, elo matching, and role selection. If the support/fill issue falls under role selection, that's still only 1/3rd of the pie. Even then, TB used to have a more specific role selection feature and the queue times were about the same. I mentioned this in my op. Thus, the logical conclusion is that the queue times are either the results of less players or the pre-made feature. I'm not making the correlation between the opinions you've provided and the belief that a SQ would have longer queue times. It doesn't seem possible, given that SQ would remove one of the attempt layers.
: They need to realize that those 3 points scarra mentioned ( Quality of match, Role selection, Queue time) cannot be all together at the higher elos because of the lack of players. If they get to pick there role and get a good quality match they have to give up the time to find those matches. If they get roles and a good queue time then they have to accept the quality will go down to find those matches fast like fast food. If they get a quality match and short times then to do so they need to give up there roles. As for dynamic queue its like Riot realizes there wrong, I mean they say it so many times in the video, but they just don't want to back down. Limiting dyanamic buddies to 3 for high elo's is not the answer they need. I hope whatever "secret sauce" stuff they were talking about lives up to him calling it a solution.
I agree. The reality is that higher elo games will always have longer queue times, which is a result of the smaller number of players up there. This is made worse, I feel, by the 'pre-made attempt layer' I talked about in OP. It will be interesting to see if Riot can actually do anything to improve DQ, as it seems the flaws are rather inherent. It's like if I choose to turn the AC off in my house and try to solve the issue of being too warm. That issue is inherent within the choice I made to remove the AC.
: Most of all, solo players feel their rank is devalued by DQ. No one knows you got your rank solo instead of carried by some 4-man on voice coms spamming one strategy you've worked out to the T. There should be a separation to show solo performance even if it's still DQ.
Yup totally agree. I should have included this point in my 'Solo Accomplishment' section. While I don't care about other people's rank as much as I do my own, I can't help but feel like the ranked experience has been inaccurate for me this season. When I was trying out DQ for a few weeks, I encountered way more stomps/mismatches than last season. Felt like a every match was a wild card.
MIRKY (NA)
: Can I just say that i respect you so much for not making this another "WAW RITO FUCK YOU GG I HATE YOU IM SO BUYING OVERWATHC NOW" posts :l
Thanks man. Yeah, I felt like breaking down point-by-point what was wrong with the conversation and DQ in general was the more open-ended approach.
: No, he was talking to everyone reading it.
I said 'many of your players', not 'all of your players who frequent the boards'. Besides, the general frustration on the boards is understandable, and I don't believe that being frustrated or venting equates to being stupid. I don't quite know what your point is.
Lettow (NA)
: Thanks for taking the time to write such a thoughtful post!
Np. Thanks for reading it!
Rioter Comments
: No. Those 3 seconds are part of the damage you took. If you took enough damage to die, but got to go back soon enough for the fountain to "save you" then that would effectively be like backing while being affected by Teemo, Twitch, Brand dots etc. Deaths Dance turns a portion of the damage you take into a DoT so you can live longer during a fight. This is both the advantage and disadvantage to the item. You got to parse out the damage (that could have been lethal, and may still kill you) over 3 seconds, but you still have to wait 3 seconds for the damage you took to "finish." When choosing Deaths Dance, you are choosing an item that turns a portion of damage you take into DoT, and you dont get to base while taking damage. You may not like that mechanic, but it if you cant play around it, then perhaps you should choose another item.
DJ Sona (EUW)
: I hope this could be considered, with the client update
I like it, but I'd still want the ability's cooldown to be a different color from the rest of the text.
: Tell me about your 'most wrong' assumptions you made before stuff got released
I was 100% convinced release Bard would be overpowered in the jungle.
Rioter Comments
Zedex (NA)
: Im' not blaming others on my rank. I'm Silver because i don't try enough, or play enough, to warrant a rank up. Maybe if I stopped playing so casually i could rank up if i really tried, but the fact of the matter is I do my placements and thats that. My match quality used to be great in Solo Q. The boards is where I'm getting my bias from. Everyone on here claims thats their issues.
I mean.. your last comment states that to you, solo queue is a "shitty solo playground where AFKs, Tilters, and ragers determine match quality", yet now you're saying your match quality used to be great in solo queue. It's either one or the other man. If solo was great for you, awesome, it was for me too. If it was bad for you, then I stand by my argument that it **may **have been because of your rank.
JMoormann (EUW)
: The mismatch is a valid point. It's why I would love Riot to release the statistics around DQ: What is the chance to get matched with an x man premade, how often do both teams have equally sized premades, etc. I remember a post from Lyte that their goal is to have 4/5 man premades matched against the same size in at least 95% of the time, which to me seems reasonable. If the numbers are similar, or can be tweaked to be similar, then it's one of the biggest flaws gone.
I'm quite certain that the post you're referring to stated that 95% of the time, a solo player won't be pitted against a 5-man premade. It's not that straight forward, though. There are a lot of different situations that result in an inherent disadvantage; 5-man Vs. 4-man + solo 5-man Vs. 3-man + duo 5-man Vs. 3-man + 2 solo 5-man Vs. duo + 3 solo 5-man Vs. 5 solo 4-man Vs. 3-man + duo _(Debateable)_ 4-man Vs. 3-man + 2 solo 4-man Vs. duo + 3 solo 4-man Vs. 5 solo 3-man + duo Vs. 3-man + 2 solo 3-man + duo Vs. duo + 3 solo 3-man + duo Vs. 5 solo 3-man + 2 solo Vs. duo + 3 solo 3-man + 2 solo Vs. 5 solo duo Vs. 5 solo If we can both agree that (assuming equal rank/skill) having more members in a single party increases the odds of winning, then there are mathematically more possible mismatch scenarios than there are balanced scenarios. I've just listed 15 possible mismatch scenarios. However, there are only 6 balanced scenarios; 5-man Mirror 4-man Mirror 3-man + duo Mirror 3-man + 2 solo Mirror duo + 3 solo Mirror 5 solo Mirror
: This is what everyone was saying they wanted. They said it over and over "I don't care if solo queue isn't coming back, I just want Riot to man up and say it straight". There you guys go, you got what you wanted.
I personally never said that lol. I do mind that solo queue is gone. Without it, I don't feel that ranked is a fair competitive scene, and it seems Riot agrees with my assessment.
Zedex (NA)
: You're right, its not coming back. Accept it like the rest of the mature playerbase. Teamwork wins, not your shitty solo playground where AFKs, Tilters, and ragers determine match quality.
I never understood the 'trollers' argument against solo queue. I've climbed solo from unranked to plat, and never was it the case that a high enough occurrence frequency of trollers stagnated my progress. I don't mean to be offensive, but you've been silver for three seasons straight. It's possible that the frequency at which one runs into an afker, rager, or intentional feeder is lower the higher your rank is. This would make sense, as the higher rank one is, the less that individual wants to lose, meaning they're less likely to partake in any of the aforementioned toxic acts.
JMoormann (EUW)
: Am I the only solo player who doesn't mind dynamic queue quite as much? I managed to climb from Bronze 1 to Gold 2 this season, playing solo only and just trying to not give a fuck about who is premade. I have got matched with a premade around 4-5 times this season (or maybe more, but I didn't notice it then) in over 300 ranked games, and only 1 of them was toxic. When I see my lane opponent is premade with the jungler, I know I have to play a bit safer. When both my team and their team have a 4-man premade, I know I will likely be the weak link and that I should try to get my coordinated teammates ahead, instead of trying to be the solo carry and then get shut down. And yes, having less chance to carry can feel bad. And getting shut down by coordinated opponents feels bad. But the "Rank is now completely meaningless" kind of statements are, to me, bullshit. I really doubt whether a Platium player from last season now sits in Silver "just because of premades". And I don't think that all players who climbed this season have done so because of "Dynamic Boost". DQ has less focus on pure mechanical skill, but it's still the same game. Also, if the "I get matched with 3 or 4 man premades in almost every game" complaints are true, doesn't that mean that if DQ would be removed, all of those players who do want to play with premades (which are quite a lot if you get matched with them so often) would complain instead? I know this will likely get me a lot of downvotes, and that a lot of people will disagree with me, but: **As a solo player, I think Riot has made the right decision**
I'm not going to downvote you because you have a different opinion than me, and I hope noone else does either. But I'd like to explain something. The issues with dynamic queue aren't going to expose themselves every game, and it's possible that some players experience them much less often than others. So your anecdotal experience is one that I can absolutely believe. However, this doesn't mean that the issues don't exist. The objective reality of the situation is that dynamic queue inherently creates more mismatches than solo queue, on average. When you introduce the potentials for larger pre-mades to be matched against smaller pre-mades or pure solos, you create an environment that is subject to frequent and noticeable mismatches by design. As with anything regarding chance, some people are less fortunate than others and experience these mismatches at a higher frequency. The point of wanting solo queue back is to completely eliminate the potential. Even in a pure solo queue there would be mismatches, as it is 100% guaranteed one team will lose every game. However, at least it would eliminate the myriad of potential mismatches created by dynamic queue's design flaws.
: I am mostly fine with Dynamic queue, tbh, safe for one thing. If Riot were to remove 4 man queues (and only four man queues), I would be perfectly happy. It sucks being the fifth wheel on the cart and play in a completely neglected lane (whether that is mid or top). And chances are quite high that you as the solo player will play against a member of the opposing 4-man premade. Moreover, as a solo player, you are actually quite likely to be put with a 4 man premade if you do not pick support as one of your choices. For the simple reason that a 4-man premade has to check all roles. If 4-man premades were abolished, you as the solo player would always play with either two 2-man groups or with at least one other solo player.
The opportunity would still exist for a 5-man to go up against a non-5-man, which is flat-out objectively flawed.
Goatfish (NA)
: ***
I agree to an extent. I shouldn't have said "isn't possible", I should have said "much less enjoyable". I can still climb back to plat if I want to, but I don't. The dynamic experience is just painful, and I'm not about to invest time and energy in an unenjoyable endeavour. This is gaming we're talking about. It's supposed to be enjoyable.
: It's not any harder to climb and it never was just solo Q it was Due Q people still got boosted from Due Q this Dynamic Q makes no difference along with that Rank was never really good because match making was still bad since if you are in silver 1 you can be playing against gold 5's
Rank alone isn't what makes a team good. Going up against a 4-man who are voice chatting as a 3-man with voice chat is a disadvantage, even if all are the same rank. This system just inherently creates more room for mismatches, objectively.
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Aheadatime

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