: His post is talking about an alternative to reliable basic attacks which the game currently has. You can't avoid basic attacks 99% of the time. What's your point? That's not some unproven assumption, it's a fact.
Saianna (EUNE)
: If you don't even know what sustain and burst is, then... What is even the point of us talking? Second thing, you know why those "hurr durr ADC circlejerking hurr" threads are made daily? Cause they are fucking broken. They arent balanced since ages. People see it. People make threads about this. And yea, they do have that 50% winrate and all, but that's because most of ADCs play like braindead morons and forcefully pull the winrate lower than it should be. I don't wanna lie to you, but across all seasons since S3~~ ADCs got like 20-30% more AD and crit chance in items than before. They also have shitton more defensive options than before. This is what's called a powercreep. > Well, thank you for pointing out how much you believe in the stereotypes made against AD players. What can I say, you are perfect ADC stereotype. Doesn't know shit and talks shit.
> If you don't even know what sustain and burst is, then... What is even the point of us talking? I know what sustain and burst is. Mages have burst. No one is buying sustain. > Second thing, you know why those "hurr durr ADC circlejerking hurr" threads are made daily? Because this forum is run by a bunch of mage players who love to circlejerk. They accuse ADC players of "whining when their class gets nerfed" yet there is no ADC players to be seen at all to even whine. Instead, the mages whine. Maybe moderation should do something about threads that talk about how shitty of a person ADC players are. > Cause they are fucking broken. They arent balanced since ages. People see it. People make threads about this. And yea, they do have that 50% winrate and all, but that's because most of ADCs play like braindead morons and forcefully pull the winrate lower than it should be. Wow, you really don't know how winrates work... The proper answer is both teams have one so they cancel out. Also if adcs are broken, why are they barely played outside bot lane? > I don't wanna lie to you, but across all seasons since S3~~ ADCs got like 20-30% more AD and crit chance in items than before. They also have shitton more defensive options than before. This is what's called a powercreep. 20-30% more AD? Pretty sure BT has lost AD and IE is still the same. LW has more AD because of it's upgrades, but that also includes a higher gold cost. BoRK lost attack speed, so don't even try that argument. > What can I say, you are perfect ADC stereotype. Doesn't know shit and talks shit. #I am literally using facts. This isn't a debate. This is you denying the truth. btw stereotyping people is bad and shows you're a part of the circlejerk problem
BoianV (EUNE)
: > Well, thank you for pointing out how much you believe in the stereotypes made against AD players. You are not an oppressed minority.
So, when I see posts about every week talking about how shitty of a person ADC players are, I'm not being attacked? When this person right here literally tells me, "you have forgotten what balanced means," that's not attacking me? These are all group attacks. Do you think I **appreciate** being told that I'm an idiot and that I'm rude to players? **Do you think everyone else who plays ADC appreciates that?** Have you ever even consider the reason why the boards have no ADC mains and those mage mains instead run the circlejerking here **despite accusing adc players of whining 'when they get nerfed'?** Question the shitty status quo here.
: And i don't really care about your absolutely worthless opinion when all you say is "No i'm right he's wrong."
Scroll up and find my comment, but his entire post is based on an unproven assumption.
Saianna (EUNE)
: > ADCs aren't assassins ranged AA damage was supposed to be sustained damage. But thanks to crit chance and items (such as duskblade, statikk) it's nature changed to burst. If an ADC can kill you within a second (or 2-3 AAs) without giving you a chance to fight back or run away or just defend, then yeah, ADC becomes pretty much an assassin in disguise. Yeah sure, ADC=/=assassin, but if they do what assassins do, but better, then you have a HUGE fucking problem with the balance. There were even jokes that ADCs deal sustained burst damage. --- > Duskblade has nothing to do with consistent autos nor do adcs build it and > ADCs don't buy lifesteal until 4th item, so how could they 'sustain like gods' It's your opinion on how ADCs should be played. Not that they definitely play your way. > Autos being the same damage, meaning consistent, is what makes autos a good design crit chance, stattiks, firecannon, dusk, some abilities all bump the "consistent damage" you speak of, making it resemble burst if anything. --- > (but hey I like the circlejerk too! /s) It's definitely circlejerking cause they say something i disagree with! --- Most of AD-enthusiasts in LOL has long forgotten what 'balanced' means. You guys got sooo used up to the powercreep, that it's kinda disgusting. I'm not blaming you, but Riot, if anything. They spoiled the living shit out of you across last 4 seasons. How can you even remember times when AD stat was as bloated as it is now. That's literally 4 years ago, if not longer.
> ranged AA damage was supposed to be sustained damage. But thanks to crit chance and items Should be changed to, "but thanks to boards circlejerking we call it burst > It's your opinion on how ADCs should be played. Not that they definitely play your way. Statistics aren't my opinion. You can research what meta adcs build very fucking easily that there isn't an excuse to not knowing. > crit chance, stattiks, firecannon, dusk, some abilities all bump the "consistent damage" you speak of, making it resemble burst if anything. Meta ADCs don't build Duskblade. > It's definitely circlejerking cause they say something i disagree with! We get posts like the one above daily. **D A I L Y** > Most of AD-enthusiasts in LOL has long forgotten what 'balanced' means. You guys got sooo used up to the powercreep, that it's kinda disgusting. I'm not blaming you, but Riot, if anything. They spoiled the living shit out of you across last 4 seasons. How can you even remember times when AD stat was as bloated as it is now. That's literally 4 years ago, if not longer. Well, thank you for pointing out how much you believe in the stereotypes made against AD players.
: Spectres cowl makes rumbles dot invalid until he gets about 4600 gold in items for 1200. Mordes switched between bot and top for a while.
except the fact he's doting you means he would reapply GW
: So, there are effectively no options for a tank to build against an on-hit Conqueror champ
: > [{quoted}](name=AirKingNeo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gRTqxGiw,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-05-26T00:37:33.137+0000) > > Then you auto force adcs with dashes to be better. > > and it's a stupid idea, guns don't hurt less being close to them adc without dashes usually have more cc to kite.
{{champion:29}} {{champion:21}} slows ain't enough
: I feel like you're thinking in the right direction but overcomplicating the solution.
he's thinking in the wrong direction. There's nothing wrong with how autos work.
: people have brought up the idea of having ranged auto attack damage drop off in melee range before. imo its one of the better approaches to balancing out marksmen against melee carries. having 3 areas would probably be "too complicated" for riot, considering theyre throwing around with true damage conversions just because they think true damage is easier to understand than % damage amps or armor pen. but making them only deal 50% damage at very short range (lets say 200 and less) makes sense imo. no more risk of ranged carries facetanking people because they get shielded for 3 times their health bar. well, they could still facetank people, but at least they wouldnt be able to kill the guy on top of them.
Then you auto force adcs with dashes to be better. and it's a stupid idea, guns don't hurt less being close to them
Onotori (NA)
: Shower thoughts on making autos less cancerous but still reliable.
> Right now, champs that auto attack are kind of... cancerous, right? ADCs are assassins, assassins chunk half your health in one auto thanks to Duskblade, and champs like Yi and Jax and the like are just not fun to play against. They all have the same issue, in that they're based around auto attacks, which, outside of Graves and Kalista, have no counterplay. They always do the same damage, they attack so fast that armor means nothing, they sustain like gods, and they're more or less statchecks. Everything in this paragraph is factually wrong. Auto attacks aren't cancerous, ADCs aren't assassins (but hey I like the circlejerk too! /s), Duskblade has nothing to do with consistent autos nor do adcs build it, Yi and Jax are weak statistically (Source, League of Graphs). Autos being the same damage, meaning consistent, is what makes autos a good design. Armor and attack speed have no correlation. Auto attack champions don't sustain like gods because **no one buys sustain anymore**. ADCs don't buy lifesteal until 4th item, so how could they 'sustain like gods'. Bruisers can't buy sustain because of **Bramble fucking Vest**. EDIT: Everyone downvoting me either has a bias against me or is anti-fact. This isn't a debate. These are facts you can research easily.
: how about rumble and morde then. both are fighters and both are ap. Now im not saying that teemo and kennen arent annoying but my statement was to show more not all ap scaling champs are mages.
Rumble is still a lane bully with a fucking dot. I'd like to not be perma-heal reduced in lane as any bruiser. Morde isn't a top laner.
: But they need to lane against Vladimir.. And most also need a mana sustain item before going morello
in what world is Vlad going mid lane? I'd love to be in that world so he **stops bullying me top lane.**
: Not at all. He said "anyone who has played him for a few hours will be over 50%" It takes a few hours to get to mastery 7. Many mastery 7 Yasuo's aren't aboce 50%. I wasn't talking about his first claim. He made two.
wait but it takes far more than a few hours to get even Mastery 5 let alone 7.
: I honestly think League is broken beyond repair
Well, that's a crappy level of optimism. Surely if something can be made shitty, then you can also make it better.
: Just a heads up, that's not the intended use for the triple parentheses. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_parentheses
: I can't speak on low gold, but high plat-mid diamond, rageblade is always bought. Lichbane isn't common, but it's not super rare. The point stands, he benefits from ap items, according to stats - even if your (wrong) opinion disagrees. Lol.
According to stats, I'm correct. Lich Bane isn't built. Rageblade isn't built except in low elo.
: > [{quoted}](name=AirKingNeo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=x5wFeEF6,comment-id=000a000000010000,timestamp=2018-05-25T17:07:27.675+0000) > > Look at his scalings??? **You should look at his builds.** > > He doesn't buy Gunblade, nor Rageblade, nor Lichbane (and that was very unintelligent to even mention Lichbane). > > Seriously, this is freely available information you can find online. He actually has a fully functional on hit build when he jungles if he gets ahead. Bloodrazor-rageblade-health/resistance item - Then triforce or titanic hydra. Whatever items he likes after. If he gets ahead with that build he melts people really damn fast be they a tank or a squishy while also taking a number of hits without much issue. But admittedly the standard builds are much more common with stuff like cinderhulk-trinity force etc.
: you should look at his scalings. He has good ap scalings. He always gets rageblade, and benefits from the ap, it's not uncommon to see a jax got lichbane over trinity. Gunblade is a mage item now, but it's still not uncommon on Jax. Are you really pretending he doesn't benefit from ap? Just look at his numbers, guy. Lol
Look at his scalings??? **You should look at his builds.** He doesn't buy Gunblade, nor Rageblade, nor Lichbane (and that was very unintelligent to even mention Lichbane). Seriously, this is freely available information you can find online.
: His W,E and R all have good AP scalings and his R gives him MR based on his AP. If your going for nukeing someone AP jax usually does it better and also the first item on his recomended page is a gunblade.
Jax doesn't build AP. Gunblade is a mage item now and he no longer builds it.
: Rumble, swain, teemo, maybe kennen are all ap toplaners.
and all of them don't need help being better top lane because us bruiser players WOULD LIKE TO **PLAY THE GAME**
Glory97 (EUW)
: There should be more mini versions with effect of the completed item for AP-items
Vhan8765 (NA)
: It's enjoyable being one of those people who know how to play around a Yasuo; quite easily even. This just sounds like low elo problems. Now where's my dancing salt shaker when I need it? EDIT: Oof, look at all the downvotes from these salty children. Once Yas is actually viable in high elo, even more so pro play, then you kids have an actual right to complain. Right now though, you're all just throwing a temper tantrum in the store and embarrassing yourselves. xD https://g.redditmedia.com/9aeOInllhZ2qgS4lEdOUi4VzcCaw7BTFsC1UsaX1iOI.gif?s=7d169d9e105f644d08d1b4475ad2dba9
HebiKuroha (EUNE)
: There was no point in giving yasuo a windwall when he already has his mobility on E, but yea it's just riot having no idea what they are doing. (riot should stop giving all champions mobility, just because you're an assassin that doesn't mean you must have bullshit ways of escaping everytime, just because you are an adc that doesn't mean you should have mobility when you have the range advantage etc)
because mobility and defensive abilities are two different things and skirmishers have both of them?
: He's been doing it since season 2. He's annoying. Lol. Even when he's "weak", he's mad tanky and one shotting people. He bothers me. He benefits from literally every stat in the game.
when does jax build and benefit from AP?
: And Jax is a known abuser of strong items across both damage types. Edit: Downvotes? Are you guys really forgetting that he's used 90% of the strongest AD/AP items in the game and has been absolutely bonkers with each of them at some point in this game's life? {{item:3078}} {{item:3053}} {{item:3146}} {{item:3089}} {{item:3100}} {{item:3285}} {{item:3153}} {{item:3124}} {{item:3748}} I'm not saying he's broken right now with any specific item(s), though his damage is definitely too high at the moment.
: Whats up with jax 1 hit killing everyone
: Look, I get where you are coming from about all of this, but it's not about whether Yasuo is beatable. It's about how much more agency he has over gameplay than anybody else. It's not fun to go try to play soccer just to have your opponent dancing in circles around you with the ball. Same deal here, Yasuo has multiple spammable abilities, a power-fantasy stealing defensive tool, and an ultimate that takes as much risk as possible out of picking a fight with an opponent. Not saying this makes him powerful, to the contrary - he has plenty of counterplay from walking away from minions to poking him to bait out his shield and windwall. That's not the problem though, the problem is how much more he can do than other characters, it just doesn't feel fair to compete against. He has a high ban-rate for a reason. And if Riot found ways to fix _anything_ about him to reduce player frustration against him then _everyone_ would benefit, Yasuo players and opponents alike. He'd be less annoying to deal with, he'd get banned less, and Yasuo mains could play their favorite champion more often because he would be banned less. I really see no reason why discussions can't or shouldn't be had about how and/or why Yasuo is frustrating. I've seen numerous good suggestions come out of those discussions that would likely do a lot to improve the situation surrounding Yasuo. Stop trying to stifle that with your, "yall are just unskilled or lazy and your opinions are invalid." Which, I know isn't what you said, but it's basically the rhetoric that every person who opposes Yasuo discussions uses as an argument workhorse.
> I really see no reason why discussions can't or shouldn't be had about how and/or why Yasuo is frustrating. I've seen numerous good suggestions come out of those discussions that would likely do a lot to improve the situation surrounding Yasuo. Stop trying to stifle that with your, "yall are just unskilled or lazy and your opinions are invalid." Which, I know isn't what you said, but it's basically the rhetoric that every person who opposes Yasuo discussions uses as an argument workhorse. I'm saying the possibility of, "Yasuo is fine. You just need to improve." exists and can be seen in the stats. Like I said in my bolded sentence, this post should describe the issue rather than just say there is one. Is it his E? His W? His ultimate synergy with others? His ult-turret interaction being stupid sometimes?
Xäyąh (NA)
: I'd argue they got the short end of the stick before Runic Echoes got nerfed.
oh I agree. Evelynn was broken enough to surpass it at least.
: I don't super disagree. Either way, it's a better choice than Transcendence.
Transcendence just does nothing for most champions, so Celerity is the genetic choice left with Absolute Focus sucking.
: Anyone else think Transcendence could use a small buff?
Celerity shouldn't be nerfed. It's just a generic rune in a world where the rest **suck**.
: It should activate at level 1. Runes that don't do anything in the laning phase have a hard time seeing use.
At least give 1% CDR per level, maxing at 10% CDR. Also, the adaptive bonus could be a bit higher (or at least the AP part).
: AD jungler are match better then AP jungler
> I was expecting that my top laner will pick any ap champion ????? > AP jungler are just so very weak, even with the AP jungler item change it not enough to help them get a decent lead. because they nerfed Runic Echoes
magewick (NA)
: Assassins and full ad divers aren't exactly the cream of the crop either. I'm not saying that either will reach marksmen level strength, just that they are both getting a bit of a boost dragging up the rear.
Ok, but juggernauts are not going to be viable still. Cleaver is still 24% armor pen, Atma's takes too long to charge. Skirmishers and Divers and Tanks will still massively outclass them.
: The whole point of the original post is about what is anti-fun, not about what is balanced or not. Nobody in this discussion chain said that Yasuo should be "nerfed" for his high ban-rate in lower elos. They just want him to be made less frustrating to play against.
The premise of the original post includes Yasuo having "the highest banrate". Also, it should be noteworthy that maybe instead of making Yasuo "less frustrating", they could improve at the game instead. (Does anyone consider this? If someone isn't broken at all high elo, and you're bad against it, it's probably a problem on the player's end.) **Or, this post at least could list what is frustrating, rather than just circlejerk with 'ha ha yasuo broken ha ha'.**
: I can't tell if this is for LCS, or for casuals
: > [{quoted}](name=AirKingNeo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vF4zEYVY,comment-id=000000010002000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-24T18:31:57.837+0000) > > because there is a higher variety of AD classes. > Wow that's a very liner point of view you've got there. Allow me to shatter it for you. Every champion type that exsists for AD used to exist for AP. It is only due to the lack of relevant items within the AP pool that has dictated they be played AD. Don't believe me? Look at all the champions that USED to be played building AP items. Notice how they all started building AD instead? What items did the decide to build? Look into this and shatter, or ignore and remain ignorant **It is extreme false equivalency to say pretend that every AD champion has access to every AD item.** No but they all have items that are designed around their class. AP do not. **Meanwhile every AP champion can use every AP item except about 4-5 being locked to their respective class (assassins with proto, gunblade, mages with mana items).** Can use? Yes. In the same way anyone with AD scaling CAN USE AD. It's just they're not optimal with them. This is the situation AP are currently in. The items are not the best that COULD or SHOULD be available, but they are sadly the ONLY items available. It's like saying "Assassins, duelists, bruisers, adc's all work off AD, so we'll give them 7 items that give AD, hp, and an activate effect. Every item will scale off your AD, you have only 2 lethality items; one boots, the other a GW item called "mortal reminder that AP have had this for ages" that costs 3000g and has some extra HP, Black cleaver gone, triforce working off ad scaling, ravenous/titanic hydra removed, steraks removed, lifesteal items removed (you can keep DD but it no longer gives CDR, the bleed passive, but does give you some AP!), crit gone unless it's included in the ability under defined circumstances, and one attack speed item with a scaling AD on hit effect (5% sounds fair right?). But don't worry, you can keep manamune (it'll give 20% cdr but cost increased), GA and of course edge of night (with it's lethality removed ofc). There we go, you have 7 items that can be used on ANY AD champion. What more could you want? Everyone can build the same shit after all, they don't NEED items designed for their champion type right? Get a bloody grip or just stop talking. I'm done with you, someone else can listen to your idiocy.
AP items don't need to be designed around a class because AP items are all generic except a few. Every AP champion will get Hourglass, Void Staff, and Deathcap.
Azadethe (NA)
: Wu sometimes builds tank. On Tank build Atma's is a 1 stop shop to bring in his AD. So yes. It will.
F I V E S E C O N D S I N C O M B A T I don't think Wukong will buy this terrible item
Azadethe (NA)
: But Atma's is the more broken item.... it's going to be a 150 AD item on so many champs.
magewick (NA)
: I don't think spear of shojin is meant for juggernauts. It is more of an item for melee ad fighters to keep pace with juggernauts with the upcoming atma changes as well as allow ad divers to build more towards ad.
except the new Atma's sucks and juggernauts suck because cleaver sucks
: Diamond has an overall bad sample size - proofen my inconsitent number (right now Mordekaiser has 63% winrate in Dia, OMFG instant hotfix!!!) - I'd recommend Platinum stats for a reasonable size while maintaining a reasonable skill level. And while you right - higher Elo bans the actual strong stuuf, lower elo tends to ban the toxic/antifun stuff. (Zed and Yasuo are most banned there) Besides that... This automaticly makes Yas and Ted the most banned Champs in the game since there are like 100 times more pople in gold and lower than there are people in plat and above. =P
That's why I use pick rate and ban rate. Winrate is horribly inaccurate, but what people pick and ban are consistent. But no one cares about Gold players or Plat because they aren't good at the game.
Sniperkaj (EUW)
: Three mages I would like see buffed
Why would you buff Liss so she can bully top lane again?
: Stop recommending me to play Clash when I'm not able to.
Clash is basically 5 man ranked but honor locked.
: The overwhelming number of poorly performing mastery 7 Yasuo's proves you wrong.
: He is 47% because of BAD players. Anyone who has played him for a few hours will be over 50%
Someone has it right. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/diamond/by-banrate
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: and if it's not yasuo, it's zed, and if it's not zed it's darius, if it's not darius, it's fizz let people ban whoever they ban riot is not responsible to change anything that is not related to balance
https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/diamond/by-banrate
: 47% win rate champion has the highest ban rate
https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/diamond/by-banrate No, I think Graves is the most banned champion with about 60% banrate and a 53% winrate.
: Yorick doesn't need buffs. He's already too tanky to kill.
: Give Yorick´s pets constant update of the AD instead of how it works now. He feels horrible.
: > [{quoted}](name=AirKingNeo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vF4zEYVY,comment-id=000000010001000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-24T14:30:20.816+0000) > > except for the past 4 months both zed and malz weren't meta and Hourglass was still built more. > > You can't dance around the fact Hourglass is bought more often. Hourglass is bought more often because its effect is more applicable to more matchups. Ga would be the ad equivalent, bought on all AD champions except tanks. QSS etc doesn't have an ap equivalent. Also with AP champions being less mobile then ad and having less burst it makes sense for them to invest in this earlier then their AD counterparts, meaning with game times and items purchased being lower then normal, less AD champions are getting to the point in their build where they will buy this compared to AP who will tend to buy this pretty early on.
but GA isn't bought on all champions. Bruisers rarely get GA besides Fiora and Riven. Plus you proved me right in Hourglass is built more.
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AirKingNeo

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